 Conjuring adepts and allies, here we go again. |
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 Dec 5 2003, 04:52 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304  |
So, for those of you who believe in conjurers getting the 35 points at char-gen, do you feel they should be allowed to create ally spirits with them?
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Dec 5 2003, 04:57 PM
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#2
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Well, he'd have to be innitiated right off at char gen... and if you're going to allow that, then allowing a free spirit with what's left is not a long stretch.
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Dec 5 2003, 05:02 PM
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#3
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You don't have to be an initiate to create an ally spirit. Familiars, on the other hand, require the initiation ordeal (and the only major benefit is that you don't lose a point of Magic immediately).
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Dec 5 2003, 06:23 PM
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#4
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Really? Rules must've gotten fuzy in my head. Thanks.
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Dec 6 2003, 01:01 AM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
I was expecting a 10 page flame war. What's wrong with you guys ;)
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Dec 6 2003, 01:02 AM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Well, there wasn't a lot to say on the issue.
You raving idiot. :D |
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Dec 6 2003, 01:11 AM
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#7
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Well, it's much better if you do create one using the Familiar ordeal (no Magic Loss and reduction in the Karma for your next grade), but like I said you don't have to. :) |
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Dec 6 2003, 03:44 AM
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#8
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
How do you get a karma reduction in your next grade from that?
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Dec 6 2003, 03:48 AM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
That's because you asked the wrong question! The correct question to start a flame war on conjurers is: "Should conjurers be allowed to teach spells to their ally spirits even though they can't actively use sorcery themselves?" |
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Dec 6 2003, 04:01 AM
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#10
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
To which my reply would be; No, but there is no reason why they couldn't get someone that can cast spells to teach them. :) |
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Dec 6 2003, 04:21 AM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Conjurers get 35 points. They can't summon allys using that karma by the book but I suspect several GMs'd allow it. It's a moot point that there is nothing to stop the ally of a conjuror from having spells as it can never be taught the sorcery skill (max rating = summoners) and so could never cast them.
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Dec 6 2003, 04:33 AM
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#12
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
<sighs>
Yes, they can use those points to summon ally spirits. Any magician who has spell points can use them as if they were karma for any magical purposes whatsoever during character creation. That includes bonding foci, buying spells, joining a magical society, initiating, and creating ally spirits. Also, Conjurers are perfectly free to take Sorcery as a skill. It's sole requirement is a Magic Attribute of 1 or higher. Even adepts can take Sorcery (and they're even specifically mentioned as being able to use it in the Astral Combat chapter). They just can't use it, but that doesn't mean it can't be given to their ally spirits. |
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Dec 6 2003, 04:35 AM
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#13
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That red text looks like it's slanting.
And Doc, that's an optional rule, so it varies by GM. ~J |
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Dec 6 2003, 04:37 AM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I was responding to Lilt's suggestion that it's a house rule, whereas it's an actual bonified rule (in the Shadowrun Companion).
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Dec 6 2003, 09:12 AM
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#15
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
My GM allowed me to when I made a conjuring adept. I also wanted to initiate pre-game and he allowed the ally as my ordeal (still no group, though, so it was a little expensive). As a GM, I would allow the same. It makes sense, too - if a conjuror's main focus is spirits, he should be allowed to start with a (relatively) powerful spirit if he wants to.
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Dec 6 2003, 09:20 AM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
By Canon, at Ally Creation, you can give your Ally spells you don't personally have by writing it into the ally-formula. Don't know about teaching the Ally spirit afterwards, but during Ally Creation, you sure can. Sphynx |
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Dec 6 2003, 09:25 AM
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#17
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Since everybody else is jumping off topic a bit... I was wondering. Considering all the ink (electrons?) that has been spilled over this theoretical discussion (mostly on the last thread that included it) - has anybody actually gone ahead and allowed it in their game? Anybody allowed conjuring adepts to teach their allies spells (or allow the allies to get spells some other way)? Did it work, if so?
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Dec 6 2003, 02:36 PM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yes, and it works just fine. There have been no complaints whatsoever from anyone, and it hasn't even come close to being even remotely a balance issue.
Their ally spirits are just the same as everyone else's ally spirits. |
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Dec 6 2003, 04:43 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
How might he write it into the formula without ever having seen the formula for the spell in the first place? :P |
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Dec 6 2003, 04:47 PM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
heh. too bad you can't teach your ally to conjure.
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Dec 6 2003, 04:54 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Hmm? Where is it? I fully acknowledge that I may have missed something but i'm looking and I still can't find it. Do you have a page #? [edit] Ack: Just found it in the resources section of all places. I retract my comment about not being able to summon an ally at character creation but you still can't ever teach it sorcery.[/edit] |
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Dec 6 2003, 05:02 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
actually, there's nothing that says a conjuring adept can't learn the Sorcery skill--he just won't every be able to use it. even a mundane can learn magical skills, as evidenced by multiple accounts in SR during the Awakening of magical rituals suddenly having effect.
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Dec 6 2003, 05:04 PM
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#23
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Who says they can't read or understand the fomulae? Just because they can't cast it or defend against it, it doesn't mean they don't know what it is or can't add it into another formula. I know "learning a spell" uses Sorcery, but it's ridiculous to assume that it's an "active use" of Sorcery... especially considering that bashing an astral entity is a far more active use, yet perfectly allowable. It's like assuming that a burnt-out magician is forced to "forget" all of his learned spells when his Sorcery skill (for some strange, bizarre, and incomprehensible reason) transforms into the Sorcery Background skill, which is a completely different skill to begin with. |
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Dec 6 2003, 05:15 PM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 5,494 |
I'd also like to point out that MiTS talks about Mundanes who design spells that work very well. They just cannot cast and test them. As such, a Conjurer could learn everything about Sorcery, background, and active(How to do it). Just because it is ineefective for them does not mean they cannot learn it. And then teach it. If a Mundane can create spells, I am sure a Conjurer can teach his spirit to cast them. After all, the spirit has the power, just not the knowledge of how to do it.
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Dec 6 2003, 05:46 PM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Nobody. I asked how the conjurer could write a spell into the formula of his ally without ever having seen the spell formula in the first place. According to Sphynx's interpretation, you simply pay karma and knowledge of the spell descends from heaven. There's no mention that spell formulae are required at all (because the spells are supposed to come from the conjurers spell list in the first place). |
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