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Larme
post Apr 22 2008, 07:23 PM
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I have in the past decried how vehicle concealed armor is limited to a wussy 10 total. Obvious armored vehicles are not very useful, especially when you're talking about an insertion/extraction car. But now that I look at it again, isn't it limited to 6 at chargen? You can't get any gear rated above 6 at chargen. And armor upgrades have a "rating," right? So the most of any armor you could stick on a vehicle is armor 6 at chargen?

Grah!

Though 10 armor is pretty sweet. A pistol will almost never get through it. Assault rifles and even shotguns would still need a good shot. Though APDS or AV can mess you up regardless...
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Ryu
post Apr 22 2008, 07:37 PM
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Technically correct.
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Kyoto Kid
post Apr 22 2008, 07:37 PM
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...that's news to me as a couple of the sample characters have Armoured Jackets. I believe the cap is related to gear and 'ware that has a 1 - n range listed. There is also no limitation (save for availability and cost) to buying a vehicle at chargen just because of its armour rating (how many riggers have I seen start with a Bulldog Van?).

Somebody with a book or PDF handy wish to verify this (I'm at work right now)?
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Sponge
post Apr 22 2008, 07:58 PM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 22 2008, 02:37 PM) *
...that's news to me as a couple of the sample characters have Armoured Jackets.


I think he's specifically referring to vehicle armour, not body armour.
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Muspellsheimr
post Apr 22 2008, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (Sponge @ Apr 22 2008, 12:58 PM) *
I think he's specifically referring to vehicle armour, not body armour.

More specifically, vehicle armor upgrades from Arsenal.
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sunnyside
post Apr 22 2008, 09:38 PM
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Still though the rating and availibility requirements have been restricting runners from stuff they'd want to get in chargen for a long time now.

I'm actually fairly OK with it. On the basis that runners would be working their way up. Instead of just being formed inside of a delta clinic.

Also it tends to make players actually get some use out of their mechanic shop/hacker hardware skills as they go about upgrading early on. Want to be a generic hacker in a box? Rating 5 comlink for you!



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Larme
post Apr 22 2008, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 22 2008, 03:37 PM) *
...that's news to me as a couple of the sample characters have Armoured Jackets. I believe the cap is related to gear and 'ware that has a 1 - n range listed. There is also no limitation (save for availability and cost) to buying a vehicle at chargen just because of its armour rating (how many riggers have I seen start with a Bulldog Van?).

Somebody with a book or PDF handy wish to verify this (I'm at work right now)?


I see your point. The difference is that armor jackets do not have a rating, they're not an upgrade that you buy. The vehicle mod, however, does have a rating. It's not like a piece you just pick up from a list, it's got a flexible rating and you set it yourself. I think it goes against the spirit of the rule to buy, say, a rating 20 normal armor upgrade, when the book says 6 is the max rating at chargen... But buying an armor jacket is definitely not against the spirit of the rules. In fact, I bet a lot of sample characters have body armor with ratings higher than 6.
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Aaron
post Apr 23 2008, 03:22 AM
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Aye, what Larme said. There's no such thing as a Rating 6 armor jacket, just an armor jacket that has its own ratings. If that were the case, you wouldn't be able to buy a shotgun at character generation, or for a more extreme example, characters with a lower Strength rating would have more melee weapons available for them to purchase.
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Tarantula
post Apr 24 2008, 02:40 AM
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I don't think you can technically start with vehicle/weapon modifications, as they require time/skill rolls to install. (and theoretically, once you're rolling skills, you've been created).
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Larme
post Apr 24 2008, 02:57 AM
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Yeah, but technically if my GM told me I couldn't use all these wonderful things to start out with, his balls would be cruising for a nice hard kick.

I mean seriously, what's the rationale for saying you couldn't modify something at chargen? You could have been a shadowrunner for 10 years in your background, but you'd have to have some excuse for not having had anything modified in that whole time.

The real outrage of the mod rules is that they give rules for parts and labor, but no guidelines about how much the labor costs from an NPC. So either you must be a technical genius with extensive facilities, or your GM just has to pull costs out of their ass.
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Mäx
post Apr 24 2008, 05:23 AM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 24 2008, 05:40 AM) *
I don't think you can technically start with vehicle/weapon modifications, as they require time/skill rolls to install. (and theoretically, once you're rolling skills, you've been created).


Are you really of an opion that you just can't buy a modded eapon or a vehicle or get someone to mod your equipment after you bought them.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Becouse thats just retarded, if i want a silencer in to my gun and i don't know how to install one i just take it to someone who does know, shouldn't be that hard in the shadows.
In chargen there shouldn't even be any extra cost for that, what with chargen recourses being a very big abstraction.
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Shiloh
post Apr 24 2008, 08:49 AM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 24 2008, 03:57 AM) *
The real outrage of the mod rules is that they give rules for parts and labor, but no guidelines about how much the labor costs from an NPC. So either you must be a technical genius with extensive facilities, or your GM just has to pull costs out of their ass.


I disagree. I think the real outrage is that they're rubbish. They may as well have just published a list of different things you can mod and said "GM sets prices, availability, difficulty and cost, and how many of these you can stuff into any given original."

Bah.

[mutters darkly]
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Fortune
post Apr 24 2008, 09:07 AM
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And yet, I don't really have a problem with them. Funny that.
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DireRadiant
post Apr 24 2008, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 23 2008, 09:57 PM) *
I mean seriously, what's the rationale for saying you couldn't modify something at chargen? You could have been a shadowrunner for 10 years in your background, but you'd have to have some excuse for not having had anything modified in that whole time.


But where do you draw the line if you do this?

Chargen is that line in the characters story. You have to start somewhere. If you choose to give people the freebie of assuming that if you have the skill/contacts/time to get around chargen limits then I have an infinitely wealthy PC all ready to go in your game.
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Sponge
post Apr 24 2008, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Apr 24 2008, 02:36 PM) *
But where do you draw the line if you do this?

Chargen is that line in the characters story. You have to start somewhere. If you choose to give people the freebie of assuming that if you have the skill/contacts/time to get around chargen limits then I have an infinitely wealthy PC all ready to go in your game.


Well, if there were costs associated with the modifications you could just add that in to your BPs spent on resources and be done with it. Unfortunately, without costs, there's no way to really represent the BP value of these things at chargen, therefore, the simple (and nonsensical) solution is "you just can't do it". It's not like this is new tech just hitting the streets which is unavailable at chargen.

DS
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Jaid
post Apr 24 2008, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Apr 24 2008, 03:36 PM) *
But where do you draw the line if you do this?

Chargen is that line in the characters story. You have to start somewhere. If you choose to give people the freebie of assuming that if you have the skill/contacts/time to get around chargen limits then I have an infinitely wealthy PC all ready to go in your game.

don't be ridiculous. you stop the exact same place you stop anywhere else in chargen: when you run out of money, or when the availability gets too high. those are the limits placed on chargen resources, by default.

i mean, honestly, are you seriously going to tell the mechanic with the engineering group at 4 and a logic of 5(7) that he couldn't have built his own car in terms of fluff, and that's where he got his starting vehicle? are you going to tell the team hacker that he can't declare all of his programs to have been written by himself, because he apparently just popped into existence? or better yet, are you going to tell him that he can't have any programs at all, because that takes months to code, and he has (apparently) just popped into existence, fully formed?

honestly, i don't think anyone is saying you should get a discount on it (yet, at least). they're just saying it should be possible to start off with things that take time to make. which is everything with the possible exception of a club, since pretty much everything else requires that someone make it.

now, certainly, they should pay full price for everything in chargen, whether they are saying it was made by them or not... chargen resources are what you have, and do not necessarily reflect how much nuyen you spent obtaining those things. but at the same time, the limitations in chargen don't need to be added to, limiting with availability and cost works for everything else in the game... why not vehicle/weapon/armor/whatever modifications?

(incidentally, if you're looking at the cost of things before labor, that's right in the core book, under the section where it tells you how much of a discount you get for building things yourself... though, as i said, those reduced prices should only apply post-chargen, imo)
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Tarantula
post Apr 24 2008, 09:08 PM
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Yes, but my point was, if you're buying the mods, then fine, great, you have an assault rifle, and various mods. They aren't installed. If you want to install them, you can after creation (but say, taking place in the past) and roll, and if you screw it up, well, sorry.

If you want them pre-installed, I'm gonna charge some kind of mechanic fee, something like 50-100Â¥ an hour of work, and probably 5x that if you want it under the table (unless they're a contact).
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Ryu
post Apr 24 2008, 09:29 PM
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If you play by the book, "installed in the car" is a valid placement of mod parts you own. Your cyberware is installed, too.


And may only money decide what you can own in SR, except beta/deltaware. (houserule)
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Mäx
post Apr 24 2008, 09:40 PM
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Tarantula: can as you why, the starting recources is a very abstract thing, maybe a friend who is a gunsmith gave it to me for my birthday. why exactly would i have to spend some of the abstract nuyens paying for my friends work when he did it as a gift.

Do you make your players pay for their stay in the hospital while they got their ware installed, becouse thats not part of the implants cost and there are even prices for that in Aug so you wouldn't even be pulling these extra costs out of your ass like your doing with those mod installing fees.Or do you say to your players when they buy ware in chargen that now they have an implant, if your character can ,he know how, roll for implanting the ware.
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Larme
post Apr 25 2008, 01:29 AM
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Dudes: Tarantula is right. Stop telling him he's wrong. YOU'RE wrong. There are no rules for starting the game with installed modifications. You have to make your own.

But this really is an example of where people should not be ashamed of making house rules. Everyone seems to want to play king of the RAW hill, if someone tells you the way you play isn't RAW, you have to fight for the right to declare yourself legitimate. This is not how it should be! If RAW is silly and incomplete, just fix it and get over yourself! I would just let players pay the parts cost for the mods for simplicity's sake. You could invent some kind of hourly rate for mechanics and make them pay it at chargen if you wanted. However you want to do it is fine. Just don't fool yourself into thinking that RAW is with you.
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Cabral
post Apr 25 2008, 03:54 AM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 24 2008, 04:08 PM) *
They aren't installed. If you want to install them, you can after creation (but say, taking place in the past) and roll, and if you screw it up, well, sorry.

Yeah! And all that cyberware and bioware you bought? It's in a box, but hey, if you have cybertechnology, you can install it yourself when the game begins (but it happens in the past). If you fail the roll, well, sorry. ... Wait, you did pay for shipping and handling on all that stuff, right?

That's nonsense. It doesn't matter whether the books says explicitly that if bought at character creation it's preinstalled, it's common sense.
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Dashifen
post Apr 25 2008, 03:40 PM
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In general, though, if a PC wants to mod something themselves during character generation, I do make sure they have the appropriate skills, too. Thus, a face-type character with no mechanics ability can't have his self-built car if the modifications to the car require some random skill like Hardware. If a PC wants to have that car, they better have the skills required to build it on their sheet or a Contact that they can work through. Thus, some extra BP are spent to make sure that they have the "fluff" to support the modifications they're requesting. I like to see the same sort of supporting evidence for cyber/bio, too.
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Tarantula
post Apr 25 2008, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (Cabral @ Apr 24 2008, 08:54 PM) *
Yeah! And all that cyberware and bioware you bought? It's in a box, but hey, if you have cybertechnology, you can install it yourself when the game begins (but it happens in the past). If you fail the roll, well, sorry. ... Wait, you did pay for shipping and handling on all that stuff, right?

First, for buying cyberware without paying the installation cost... SR4, 84, "In addition to the nuyen cost, each item of cyberware or bioware also has a secondary cost in Essence. This Essence Cost is the amount by which the character’s Essence is reduced when the cyberware or bioware is installed."
So, by RAW, cyberware comes installed at its listed cost.

From Arsenal, 128, "All modification rules given in this book are based on the same basic principles. In order to modify a piece of equipment, a character needs the object itself as well as the plans, materials, and tools necessary to perform the modifications. Then he needs to roll an Extended Build/Repair Test using an attribute + skill appropriate to the type of equipment he is modifying."
And by RAW for modifications, they don't. Your example is incorrect.

QUOTE (Cabral @ Apr 24 2008, 08:54 PM) *
That's nonsense. It doesn't matter whether the books says explicitly that if bought at character creation it's preinstalled, it's common sense.

No, it isn't. It takes skills (and upwards of full on facilities) to modify your equipment to the extreme that modifications do. Modifications weapons come with are pre-installed, that is common sense. Having after-market modifications pre-installed isn't. Either have the skills to do it and roll (and possibly fail and mess it up), or have a contact you can pay to do it for you, and he can still possibly fail and mess it up, but he could probably be convinced to get you a replacement.
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Jaid
post Apr 25 2008, 08:56 PM
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there are rules for installing 'ware also. that doesn't mean it automatically comes uninstalled. why should the fact that there are rules for how to install mods mean that they automatically come uninstalled?
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Larme
post Apr 25 2008, 09:03 PM
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There really is no reason for this to get acrimonious. Play however you want. You don't have to win the RAW to play it your way, ok? The rules don't explicitly say one way or the other, so just pick your favorite way to play, and do it that way.
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