I have in the past decried how vehicle concealed armor is limited to a wussy 10 total. Obvious armored vehicles are not very useful, especially when you're talking about an insertion/extraction car. But now that I look at it again, isn't it limited to 6 at chargen? You can't get any gear rated above 6 at chargen. And armor upgrades have a "rating," right? So the most of any armor you could stick on a vehicle is armor 6 at chargen?

Grah!

Though 10 armor is pretty sweet. A pistol will almost never get through it. Assault rifles and even shotguns would still need a good shot. Though APDS or AV can mess you up regardless...

Technically correct.

...that's news to me as a couple of the sample characters have Armoured Jackets. I believe the cap is related to gear and 'ware that has a 1 - n range listed. There is also no limitation (save for availability and cost) to buying a vehicle at chargen just because of its armour rating (how many riggers have I seen start with a Bulldog Van?).

Somebody with a book or PDF handy wish to verify this (I'm at work right now)?

I think he's specifically referring to vehicle armour, not body armour.

More specifically, vehicle armor upgrades from Arsenal.

Still though the rating and availibility requirements have been restricting runners from stuff they'd want to get in chargen for a long time now.

I'm actually fairly OK with it. On the basis that runners would be working their way up. Instead of just being formed inside of a delta clinic.

Also it tends to make players actually get some use out of their mechanic shop/hacker hardware skills as they go about upgrading early on. Want to be a generic hacker in a box? Rating 5 comlink for you!

I see your point. The difference is that armor jackets do not have a rating, they're not an upgrade that you buy. The vehicle mod, however, does have a rating. It's not like a piece you just pick up from a list, it's got a flexible rating and you set it yourself. I think it goes against the spirit of the rule to buy, say, a rating 20 normal armor upgrade, when the book says 6 is the max rating at chargen... But buying an armor jacket is definitely not against the spirit of the rules. In fact, I bet a lot of sample characters have body armor with ratings higher than 6.

Aye, what Larme said. There's no such thing as a Rating 6 armor jacket, just an armor jacket that has its own ratings. If that were the case, you wouldn't be able to buy a shotgun at character generation, or for a more extreme example, characters with a lower Strength rating would have more melee weapons available for them to purchase.

I don't think you can technically start with vehicle/weapon modifications, as they require time/skill rolls to install. (and theoretically, once you're rolling skills, you've been created).

Yeah, but technically if my GM told me I couldn't use all these wonderful things to start out with, his balls would be cruising for a nice hard kick.

I mean seriously, what's the rationale for saying you couldn't modify something at chargen? You could have been a shadowrunner for 10 years in your background, but you'd have to have some excuse for not having had anything modified in that whole time.

The real outrage of the mod rules is that they give rules for parts and labor, but no guidelines about how much the labor costs from an NPC. So either you must be a technical genius with extensive facilities, or your GM just has to pull costs out of their ass.

Are you really of an opion that you just can't buy a modded eapon or a vehicle or get someone to mod your equipment after you bought them.

Becouse thats just retarded, if i want a silencer in to my gun and i don't know how to install one i just take it to someone who does know, shouldn't be that hard in the shadows.
In chargen there shouldn't even be any extra cost for that, what with chargen recourses being a very big abstraction.

I disagree. I think the real outrage is that they're rubbish. They may as well have just published a list of different things you can mod and said "GM sets prices, availability, difficulty and cost, and how many of these you can stuff into any given original."

Bah.

[mutters darkly]

And yet, I don't really have a problem with them. Funny that.

But where do you draw the line if you do this?

Chargen is that line in the characters story. You have to start somewhere. If you choose to give people the freebie of assuming that if you have the skill/contacts/time to get around chargen limits then I have an infinitely wealthy PC all ready to go in your game.

Well, if there were costs associated with the modifications you could just add that in to your BPs spent on resources and be done with it. Unfortunately, without costs, there's no way to really represent the BP value of these things at chargen, therefore, the simple (and nonsensical) solution is "you just can't do it". It's not like this is new tech just hitting the streets which is unavailable at chargen.

DS

don't be ridiculous. you stop the exact same place you stop anywhere else in chargen: when you run out of money, or when the availability gets too high. those are the limits placed on chargen resources, by default.

i mean, honestly, are you seriously going to tell the mechanic with the engineering group at 4 and a logic of 5(7) that he couldn't have built his own car in terms of fluff, and that's where he got his starting vehicle? are you going to tell the team hacker that he can't declare all of his programs to have been written by himself, because he apparently just popped into existence? or better yet, are you going to tell him that he can't have any programs at all, because that takes months to code, and he has (apparently) just popped into existence, fully formed?

honestly, i don't think anyone is saying you should get a discount on it (yet, at least). they're just saying it should be possible to start off with things that take time to make. which is everything with the possible exception of a club, since pretty much everything else requires that someone make it.

now, certainly, they should pay full price for everything in chargen, whether they are saying it was made by them or not... chargen resources are what you have, and do not necessarily reflect how much nuyen you spent obtaining those things. but at the same time, the limitations in chargen don't need to be added to, limiting with availability and cost works for everything else in the game... why not vehicle/weapon/armor/whatever modifications?

(incidentally, if you're looking at the cost of things before labor, that's right in the core book, under the section where it tells you how much of a discount you get for building things yourself... though, as i said, those reduced prices should only apply post-chargen, imo)

Yes, but my point was, if you're buying the mods, then fine, great, you have an assault rifle, and various mods. They aren't installed. If you want to install them, you can after creation (but say, taking place in the past) and roll, and if you screw it up, well, sorry.

If you want them pre-installed, I'm gonna charge some kind of mechanic fee, something like 50-100Â¥ an hour of work, and probably 5x that if you want it under the table (unless they're a contact).

If you play by the book, "installed in the car" is a valid placement of mod parts you own. Your cyberware is installed, too.


And may only money decide what you can own in SR, except beta/deltaware. (houserule)

Tarantula: can as you why, the starting recources is a very abstract thing, maybe a friend who is a gunsmith gave it to me for my birthday. why exactly would i have to spend some of the abstract nuyens paying for my friends work when he did it as a gift.

Do you make your players pay for their stay in the hospital while they got their ware installed, becouse thats not part of the implants cost and there are even prices for that in Aug so you wouldn't even be pulling these extra costs out of your ass like your doing with those mod installing fees.Or do you say to your players when they buy ware in chargen that now they have an implant, if your character can ,he know how, roll for implanting the ware.

Dudes: Tarantula is right. Stop telling him he's wrong. YOU'RE wrong. There are no rules for starting the game with installed modifications. You have to make your own.

But this really is an example of where people should not be ashamed of making house rules. Everyone seems to want to play king of the RAW hill, if someone tells you the way you play isn't RAW, you have to fight for the right to declare yourself legitimate. This is not how it should be! If RAW is silly and incomplete, just fix it and get over yourself! I would just let players pay the parts cost for the mods for simplicity's sake. You could invent some kind of hourly rate for mechanics and make them pay it at chargen if you wanted. However you want to do it is fine. Just don't fool yourself into thinking that RAW is with you.

Yeah! And all that cyberware and bioware you bought? It's in a box, but hey, if you have cybertechnology, you can install it yourself when the game begins (but it happens in the past). If you fail the roll, well, sorry. ... Wait, you did pay for shipping and handling on all that stuff, right?

That's nonsense. It doesn't matter whether the books says explicitly that if bought at character creation it's preinstalled, it's common sense.

In general, though, if a PC wants to mod something themselves during character generation, I do make sure they have the appropriate skills, too. Thus, a face-type character with no mechanics ability can't have his self-built car if the modifications to the car require some random skill like Hardware. If a PC wants to have that car, they better have the skills required to build it on their sheet or a Contact that they can work through. Thus, some extra BP are spent to make sure that they have the "fluff" to support the modifications they're requesting. I like to see the same sort of supporting evidence for cyber/bio, too.

First, for buying cyberware without paying the installation cost... SR4, 84, "In addition to the nuyen cost, each item of cyberware or bioware also has a secondary cost in Essence. This Essence Cost is the amount by which the character’s Essence is reduced when the cyberware or bioware is installed."
So, by RAW, cyberware comes installed at its listed cost.

From Arsenal, 128, "All modification rules given in this book are based on the same basic principles. In order to modify a piece of equipment, a character needs the object itself as well as the plans, materials, and tools necessary to perform the modifications. Then he needs to roll an Extended Build/Repair Test using an attribute + skill appropriate to the type of equipment he is modifying."
And by RAW for modifications, they don't. Your example is incorrect.


No, it isn't. It takes skills (and upwards of full on facilities) to modify your equipment to the extreme that modifications do. Modifications weapons come with are pre-installed, that is common sense. Having after-market modifications pre-installed isn't. Either have the skills to do it and roll (and possibly fail and mess it up), or have a contact you can pay to do it for you, and he can still possibly fail and mess it up, but he could probably be convinced to get you a replacement.

there are rules for installing 'ware also. that doesn't mean it automatically comes uninstalled. why should the fact that there are rules for how to install mods mean that they automatically come uninstalled?

There really is no reason for this to get acrimonious. Play however you want. You don't have to win the RAW to play it your way, ok? The rules don't explicitly say one way or the other, so just pick your favorite way to play, and do it that way.

Actually, as I quoted, the rules do say explicitly that cyberware comes pre-installed at chargen. It also says explicitly that you must succeed in your rolls for installing vehicle/weapon mods. Since you don't make skill rolls until after chargen is complete, you can't pre-install your vehicle/weapon mods.

it doesn't say the 'ware is installed. it says that there is also an essence cost in addition to the cost of the 'ware when the 'ware is installed. it's just standard to assume that the 'ware is actually installed when you buy it at chargen.

likewise, your rules for modding things are the rules for modding things. it doesn't say "you can't start with modded things" it just says "if you want to modify something, here's how you do it." kinda like how there are rules that say "if you want to install cyberware, here's how you do it".

the fact that there are rules for installing the mods does not mean that when you buy said mod at chargen it hasn't already been installed. it just means that if you want to mod something later on, that's how the rules work. nowhere does it say either way how it works (just as larme has said, which makes me wonder why on earth he's arguing that the RAW says that they can only come uninstalled), which means that it's open to interpretation. which does not mean that it must come uninstalled.

i mean, if you wish to declare that one way of interpreting it is that weapon and vehicle modifications come uninstalled when purchased at chargen, then i'm certainly not going to argue that. but if you wish to declare that it is the only way to interpret the rules, then i am going to have to disagree.

Rules on installation of cyberware are optional and do not have to be used if you are using cyberware.

Rules on installation of weapon/vehicle modifications are required if you are using weapon/vehicle modifications.

Thusly, cyberware may or may not come pre-installed at chargen depending on what ruleset you are using (and which books you have available). Also, weapon/vehicle modifications must be installed to use them, and must follow the rules for installing modifications, which do not allow for them to come pre-installed at chargen.

alright, let's examine the quote you are using:

in other words, this is the rules you use when you are modifying something. it doesn't say that it must be modified after chargen, it doesn't say that it can't be purchased and considered modified, and it doesn't even say you can't buy pre-modded stuff from your fixer. it just says that when you are modifying something, here's the rules for it. that isn't a "you can't buy it modified" or a "it can't be modified pre-chargen, in your backstory" it's just a "here's how you modify stuff".

the fact that for streamlining purposes, they left out detailed rules for installing 'ware does not mean that when they include detailed rules for installing vehicle/weapon mods, they must be used. particularly considering at least 1 of the weapon mods from the core book can be bought with the assumption that it's already installed, and was then updated in arsenal.

You're right. There isn't a "you can't buy a pistol that does 129312312P and has infinite ammo for 1nuyen" line in there either, so obviously you must be able to!


My point was this. If you are buying cyberware, you use the main book, or the optional installation rules in augmentation.

When you are buying weapon modifications, you use the rules provided in arsenal. (Your example of a modification in the main book (Internal smartlink I believe) is incorrect, as the main book states that it merely doubles the weapons price, and thats it.)

If one were buying an external smartgun system with the main book, they would have to succeed in the the skill roll as detailed in the main book. It would not come pre-attached.

my point is that it doesn't say anything about whether the mod comes attached or not. you can go on and on and on as much as you want about how there are rules for attaching mods, and no one will try to prove you wrong on that (or at least, i certainly won't).

my point is that it is equally true that the rules don't say that you *do* need to attach them yourself if you buy them in chargen. there is no RAW that says it must be one way or the other. it isn't a houserule to make them attached at chargen. it is likewise not a houserule for it to be unattached at chargen. that's just GM preference.

and you can say all you want about the internal smartgun not being a mod, but per the rules it *is* a mod, and it *does* come installed, by default (on account of it can't be installed later). it is therefore possible in the core rules to purchase a weapon with a mod already attached at chargen, with no rolling involved.

now you can argue that point all you want, but you still haven't shown anywhere that says one way or the other on the matter. there are rules in the core book for building yourself. that doesn't mean when you buy a gun, you need an armorer shop and the armorer skill to put it together yourself, it just means that *if* you decide to put it together yourself, you use those rules. likewise, it doesn't mean that when you buy a doberman, you have to assemble it yourself. and in exactly the same way, it doesn't mean that when you buy a customised grip, that you have to install it yourself.

and whether or not you are using augmentation, when you buy cyberware at chargen, it is assumed to be installed. it has nothing to do with whether or not the installation rules in augmentation are being used or not. or even whether or not you use that particular part of augmentation, even. they are simply a set of rules that you would use *if* it comes up during game time.... or at least, that is just as valid an interpretation as your interpretation.

now seriously, this is getting stupid. stop trying to invent some mythical RAW which dictates how a GM must rule. even if there actually was a Rule As Written like you say (which there isn't any rule written on the matter, making it completely BS to declare anything to be the RAW in this matter) it still wouldn't be relevant. this is not a legal battle where you can get off on a technicality, this is a game which was written by gamers, not by lawyers. it is designed to be played, and should not be treated like a legal document to begin with. if i wanted a game that was designed to be played by a computer, i suppose the exact wording of the RAW might conceivably have relevance to how the game should be ruled.... but since that isn't the case, i could care less about technicalities. i care even less about technicalities that don't even exist.

now like i said, if you wish to present that as one interpretation of the rules, that's fine. to each his own way, and you are welcome to play with those rules (and i will continue to play with mine). but stop trying to convince everyone it's The Rules™ when it is merely one possible interpretation of the rules. if people would stop perpetuating this kind of nonsense, then perhaps more of the boards would actually understand some of the harder-to-understand rules, and we could have more meaningful discussions.

So, you allow players to start with mods that require a facility even though they probably don't have access to one?

I mean, why shouldn't players be able to start will drum fed full auto PJSS rifles?

Larme will shoot both of you with a SPAS-22 if you don't quit bickering

Fact: The book doesn't say you can start with mods installed. But it doesn't say you can't either. So do what you want. You don't need RAW to be on your side to win Shadowrun. RAW doesn't matter. What matters is how you want to play it. It's reasonable to let players start with mods equipped. You have to make up your own rules for how that works though. Do you want players to just pay for the parts? Or do you want to charge them for labor too? Who knows? Who cares? This debate is just really really pointless.

I can walk in to a shop and buy lots of thinks that would need a facility for me to build, like most of the guns in the first place.

And no i wuoldn't at least let anyone have that gun in chargen or after it, becouse that gun with those mods just doesn't make any sence.

A house rule I've always used in these situations:

If your character wants to have built/acquired anything at chargen that normally requires some sort of roll, use the 'Buying Hits' rule on Pg. 55 of the SR4 main book. If there's a minimum threshold required, your character must have a sufficient dice pool to achieve that threshold via the Buying Hits rule (thus, a dice pool of 4xThreshold).

But, she didn't built it her self, she acquired it from her arms-dealer contact. Or are you saying that the player characters are the only ones in the world who can mod thinks.

If the mods are legal it shouldn't require more then walking into Weapon World and asking a kind of weapon i need from the nice lady behind the counter.

So the book does not say, our way makes sense, and we shall stop saying our way is fine by RAW?


As the rules don´t care if you have written or bought a program, they should not care if you installed or had installed a mod on something. There is no meaningful difference at chargen. Please stop trying to introduce a WH40k rules lawyer approach to Shadowrun. If it is sensible, and there is no rule against it, you can do it. This is not competitive gaming.

Yes, because it's a moot point. I don't have an opinion one way or the other, and you seem to be treating me like I disagree with you. I'm not telling you to pipe down so I can win, I'm just sick of the useless noise. All you're accomplishing by insisting that you win the RAW is creating meaningless controversy over nothing, which is trolling, so I'm asking you to drop it. Go ahead and criticize me for asking you to stop a meaningless debate, repeat that tired old line "this is a forum for discussion so don't ask people to stop discussing something." I would respond that a forum for discussion is for relevant useful discussion, not worthless bickering over nothing. Continued back-and forth over who wins the RAW here is NOT what this forum is for.

Thats because writing a program doesn't cost you anything to do, nor does it require anything special besides a commlink. Installing a weapon mod can require a FACILITY. As in, it is such an overhaul of the entire weapon design, you need the tools you would need to have built the weapon from scratch. I believe I said that if someone has a contact (such as an arms dealer, or a weapon smith) that I wouldn't care. Its only when the samurai with his 7 in longarms comes up with his full auto drum fed PJSS rifle with no way to explain how he got it besides, "the store". No armorer skill, no facility, no contact that is applicable.

But then you as a GM just say no you can't have that and not becouse you can't get modded weapons from a store, but becouse that gun just doesn't make any frikkin sence.

and you did say you were gonna charge a mechanics fee if the character didn,t have the skills to do it himself and that even then you would make them to roll to make those modifications to gun.

"Well, I had an Arms Dealer contact but after I didn't pay for the labor cost, he won't talk to me anymore ... same thing with my Street Doc and Fixer contacts ..."

You're aware that this is Dumpshock. right?

How does it not make any sense? You're remachining the whole damn gun with a facility to change how it works. It makes perfect sense, because you're using a weapon FACILITY to make it happen.


Yeah, I would. People don't work for free. And yes, I'd roll for the mechanics character to see how long it takes him to do it.



Yeah, well, then I hope you spent the BP on the contacts, and are willingly sacrificing that BP. You don't spend the BP, you don't have them.

it's a friggin two barreled hunting rifle, how the hell do you make something like that a drum-fed, if you you can explain that then we can talk about the full-auto.

and really what does it matter how long it took for the mechanic to do it a year ago.

It matters cause you have to pay him.

How? The same way you make any other weapon drumfed. Make a drum that holds the same kinda ammo. Make a firing mechanism that can utilize a drum. Rip out the old firing mechanisms and replace with your new one.

I was gonna say that it most prabaply aint that easy thing to do to a break-action gun, but the i actually read the mod desriction and

Arsenal pg.150
"A larger increase requires the clip-loading mechanism to be exchanged with a drum loading mechanism. This setup, available for SMGs and assault rifles,allows attachment of an ammo drum with an ammo capacity of 50 (+2 to Concealability) or 100 (+4 to Concealability).

So actually that gun isn't evel legal by RAW.

Shows me to speed read it!

i would point out that your standard 1-stop-shop (ie a fixer) could very reasonably have a weaponsmith or arms dealer contact, assuming he's even halfway decent as a fixer =P likewise for a mechanic. it's kinda what they do

as such, most shadowrunners could quite reasonably start with customised stuff that they got through their fixer.

You said that one would need to make up rules for starting with mods already installed. That is a rather clear position on RAW, and certainly not mine.

Yes, but it's not a position worth discussing, if the only thing about it we're discussing is whether or not it's RAW. It doesn't matter if it's RAW or not, so why are you still harping on that particular point?