The entire discussion is about if it is RAW or not to have modifications pre-installed upon chargen.

The books don't address it. Since if everything the books don't address was true, then why shouldn't everyone start with bunnies on their heads too? I mean, the books don't say they don't so obviously they must!

ah, but no one is saying they *must*, they're just saying that it isn't true that they *can't*. it's a very fine distinction, and one which you seem to be trying to address with what is probably a straw man (i never took debate, but i'm pretty sure this is a straw man arguement, and it's the second one you've tried at that).

in both cases, it's the GM's decision. so sure, the book doesn't say everyone starts with bunnies on their heads, nor does it say they do not, and it is therefore up to the GM to decide. i would venture a guess that there are more GMs rule that you do not start with bunnies on your head than there are GMs that rule you do, but that does not alter the fact that the question of whether or not you start with a bunny on your head is not addressed in the RAW, and that there is therefore no RAW ruling on the matter.

now if you have a point that is relevant to the discussion, kindly present it, and if you can actually show me some written rules that address the situation one way or another, i just might concede the point that the RAW says one way or another. until you present some written rules that clearly address the situation though, i'm going to have to stick with my position that if there are no written rules about it, there can clearly be no Rules As Written about it. you're fine to rule it your way for your games, but don't go around declaring it to be the default assumption as found in the rulebooks when there is no default assumption in the rulebooks.

I know that it is a valid arguement, and not a strawman. I just can't for the life of me remember what it is called. Its something along the lines, of when you are following a set of rules (such as those in the rulebook) the fact that the rulebook doesn't permit something means that it is denied.

The example is that the rulebook doesn't say you start with bunnies on your head. The logical conclusion then is that you don't

Same with the weapon modifications. The rulebook doesn't say you start with them built into a weapon, so they aren't.

It doesn't really say that you start with your ware installed, that just the sensible assumption.

That is the core of the matter - RAW is considered agreed upon unless houserules are in effect. And it would suck to build a rigger without access to mods. Therefore I do consider it important (and quite relevant to your topic).

SR4, 84, "In addition to the nuyen cost, each item of cyberware or bioware also has a secondary cost in Essence. This Essence Cost is the amount by which the character’s Essence is reduced when the cyberware or bioware is installed. Starting characters cannot have an Essence of 0, but any fraction above zero is fine."

It doesn't explicitly say it, but it heavily implies that cyberware bought at creation is installed.

With weapon modifications, there is no such text, and it even provides requirements necessary to install the modifications.

I would like to point out that because the books do not address it, it is clearly not Rules as Written if it is allowed or not.

good luck with getting him to acknowledge that. i've been trying for quite a while now.

and tarantula, i don't see anything that even particularly implies your 'ware comes installed. i see rules for a game effect that occurs when 'ware is installed, but there is nothing to indicate that 'ware purchased at chargen comes installed. it certainly does tell you that when you install 'ware you lose essence, but there's nothing that says anything about chargen one way or the other.

The part that implies it comes pre-installed is where it places a limit on a starting characters essence. If it didn't come pre-installed, there would be no need for such a limit, as every starting characters essence would be 6, because no ware would be installed.

actually, severe addictions can also reduce essence at chargen. either way, it doesn't really say the 'ware comes installed, and that could just as easily be viewed as stating that *if* you rule (in your game) that 'ware comes installed, you can't put in enough to reduce you to essence 0.

First off, they do not put in conditionals that are dependant on houserules.

Secondly, you're right, burnout addictions can, but you can't take enough to cause you to come near 0, so that is irrelevant.

As I said, it doesn't state it explicitly, only alludes to it. Its clear enough that cyberware is intended to be installed in chargen.

What is never alluded to is having equipment modifications installed in chargen. And in fact, there is an explicit process you must go through to install the modifications, including several skill checks. Which would indicate that they are not installed in chargen.

it's not a houserule either way, it's just an interpretation of the rules.

and there is an explicit process for how you code software, there are rules for building guns, vehicles, etc. that doesn't mean that when my chargen character buys a bulldog stepvan that he's got the parts for one, and has to assemble it himself in play. why should that be the case for the modifications for the vehicles and weapons, if it isn't the case for the weapons and vehicles themselves? certainly, you *could* run it that way. but to declare it to be the default rules or that it's the rules as written when there is no rules written about it one way or another is just silly.

the simple fact is that there is no default ruling on the matter. you yourself have indicated that there are no written rules covering it. why is it so hard to go from that to the fact that if there are no written rules one way or the other, then there is no default set of rules for it?

I didn't say there were no rules, just no explicit ones. There are relevant rules that address it, such as the one I've quoted about cyberware.

If you want to get technical, you aren't buying the parts for a bulldog stepvan, you are buying a bulldog stepvan. You are buying the parts of modifications, you aren't buying for example, a bulldog stepvan with extra entry/exit points modified in it.

You buy a gun. You buy some ammo. Is the ammo automatically loaded in the gun? Technically, no, but its such an automatic thing to have done, we can assume the character does it after he buys the gun.

You buy a car. You buy modification parts. Its the car already modified? No. You have to get a kit/shop/facility and spend the time (and have the skills) necessary to apply the modification parts to the car. Assuming it comes pre done makes the process of needing to install modifications pointless.

So Tarantula, I want to start with a smartlink in my gun. Does that mean I, 1) buy it for the base cost of my gun and it's installed, using zero capacity or 2) As of Arsenal all starting characters with built-in smartlinks are invalid as the new Arsenal version supersedes the BBB version, capacity but it cannot be installed before the character starts.

The simplest answer? This is not D&D/d20. The rules are written in English, not Rules Lawyer.

It depends. If you aren't using the Arsenal rulebook, 1) is correct, as guns don't have capacity. If you are using the arsenal rulebook, 2) Is correct. It takes up capacity, and you must install/have it installed and have access to a shop.

Funky things happen when rulebooks superceed previous ones, It isn't relevant to the discussion.

if i have all the parts for a bulldog stepvan, i still have a bulldog stepvan, it is simply arranged differently. apparently, since the rules don't say it explicitly, i must therefore be buying the parts for a bulldog stepvan. or possibly just one or more plots of land which contain the raw materials which i would require to build the individual components of a stepvan (after mining the land for said raw materials of course) which i would then have to personally assemble into the stepvan. i mean, the rules aren't specific that it's a fully assembled stepvan, apparently i must have to put it all together myself from the most basic form possible. [/sarcasm]

seriously, there are no rules for it. get over yourself and stop trying to tell us that your interpretation is the default one when there is no such default interpretation. you can make up whatever crap you want, that doesn't make it true.

Arsenal, 128, "All modification rules given in this book are based on the same basic principles. In order to modify a piece of equipment, a character needs the object itself as well as the plans, materials, and tools necessary to perform the modifications."

There you go, its explicit. If you want the equipment modified, you must meet those specifications. Since you can't meet those in chargen, you can't have chargen modified equipment.

No, it says how to modify a piece of equipment, not how to have a modded piece of equipment.

Exactly. There is no rule for how to have a modded piece of equipment from chargen, thusly, by RAW, you can't have it.

That line has fuck shit to do with the situation, becouse my character isn't modifying anything, she's walks into a gun store and tells the nice lady behind the counter what kind of a gun she needs and couple days layter she goes back to the shop pick up her new boomstick.

No, there is a rule:
the same rule that says that PCs may not take an item of availability higher then 12, or a rating higher then 6 at Chargen, subject to GM's approval.

If the modification is not installed, then the PC does not have it. You do not need special rules to have something in chargen because they are already covered. Everything uses the same rules: No higher availability then 12, no rating higher then 6, GM can veto.

You focus so much on other rules, you miss that one. Now, considering there is no law thart says you can disagree with my argument, by your own stanted philosophical beliefe(you know..where you said "if nothing says you can, then you can't"), you MUST agree with me.

You guys are all arguing past each other. People seem mad that they can't have mods at chargen. But that's not what Tarantula is saying. He's just saying that the Rules, as Written, don't let you. Not that you can't change that! Who gives a damn about RAW? The rules, as written, if they rain on your parade, are not worth a soyburger in a mud puddle. (or something). You CAN start with mods. You SHOULD start with mods. You don't need the RAW's permission. Just make up the rules however you want them to work and go nucking futs already! This is not a situation where RAW being on your side is possible or necessary.

Actually, they ARE on the side of allowing it. As I pointed out: Mods are just like any other gear with their own availability(and, in some cases, Ratings). You can, by the RAW, buy any gear at chargen that has an Availability lower then 12, and has a rating that does not exceed 6. Since, when you buy accessories, you do not have to install them yourself, we can conclude that Mods work the same way at Chargen. That said, like any gear at Chargen, mods are subject to GM approval.

Tarantula has stated, specifically, that if the RAW does not explicitly state every little thing, then what ever is not specifically mentioned cannot be done. I disagree. I am amazed that Tarantula's players have not lynched him, in fact, for requiring them to go out and get a gunsmith to install their accessories(since, IIRC, there is a roll and difficulty to install those) they bought at chargen. I would never play in one of his games because of his hard-arsed, absolutist, legalistic view of the rules. Sorry, but I hate rules lawyering to to a fascist rules interpretation that seems to be from one of Cain's evil GMs.

No, he's saying that if RAW does not provide rules for it, then you can't do while still following the RAW. He isn't saying you can't do it period. He's not saying you must always follow the RAW. He's just saying that if RAW doesn't give you rules to do something, and you do it anyway, you're deviating from the rules as written. So if you drink water, you need to make up your own rules, even if the rules are just "you drink the water successfully without rolling." That's not RAW. But it doesn't have to be. RAW doesn't forbid you from drinking water, but you can't drink water while following the RAW because there are no rules as written on how to drink. It's a pretty irrelevant point, and I'm sure he's chuckling about people bashing their faces in against this really obvious, inconsequential argument.

Exactly. That is the RAW for purchasing mods at chargen, the fact that they are not reiterated in the mod section does not make them any less applicable.

And my point, across several threads, is that the Rules as Written are written in English, not Rules Lawyer-speak and as such are not as explicit as keyword driven d20/D&D. RAW in Shadowrun cosists of common sense interpretation of the words in the book, not a literal one. The listing of prices and availability is sufficient RAW (in conjunction withe the rules on character creation) on how to buy a mod, preinstalled, at chargen.

The literal reading rules lawyering is in inappropriate, in general, with Shadowrun. That is not how the game was written. If you want double the volume for half the crunch so that things can be spelled out explicitly to your tastes (and this is not directed at Tarantula, or anyone else in particular), go convince some other game designer to do it. I like Shadowrun the way it is, warts and all.

Cyberware could probably be used as a precedent, and ruled that during character generation, the cost for installing a mod is included in the purchase cost for the part. (Installing body mods after chargen is not free either, if I recall correctly.)

Buying anything doesn't mean it explicitly comes installed. Just because you bought ammo doesn't mean its automatically loaded in the gun. Just because you buy a weapon accessory doesn't mean it is on the gun (though, since there is no test for either of those, its reasonable to assume they are done by the character shortly thereafter). Mods do not work the same way at chargen. The listings you are buying are the parts to make the modification. To actually modify the weapon, you need to follow the steps listed.


To follow RAW, you can't do anything that isn't governed by the rules. This is a rules discussion, not a game, and as such, I will follow RAW for the discussion. I've never said I do as much in my own games.


I've addressed this already. Cyberware as gear was available before rules for costs to install it. The rules with costs for installing it are optional and thusly don't have to be followed. The rules for installing a modification are required if you want to have a modification. You can't have modifications without following the modification rules. The modification rules require you to pass a series of tests in order to successfully modify equipment. You can't make tests during chargen, so you can't have modifications installed at chargen by RAW.

The costs at chargen are abstract, not concrete. You do not have to have the nuyen for the gear you "buy" at chargen, you can get it as a gift, or even installed against your will. So, it should be feasible to assume that either the character had access to a shop (like he had access to a clinic for 'ware) in the past, or that someone gifted the piece to him.

Of course, it would be far easier to assume people do the sensible thing, and buy modded weapons, like we can do today.

Uhh, no, they are concrete. You can choose to explain it however you want, but if an item costs 1,000Â¥, and you only have 999Â¥ left, you can't have it. Period.

As far as 'ware goes, clinics are on street corners, and people can get a datajack or cybereyes on their lunch break. Also, the rules for installing 'ware are optional, and thusly, not required to have it. The rules for modifications are not, and must be followed if you want modifications.

You can buy weapons with built in mods, its called, the mods they come with and don't even count against their modification limit. Those are the ones with mods from the store. If you want different mods, you can't get it from a shop, at least, not by RAW.

You just said you can buy weapons with mods. That's important.

Also, Arsenal is optional. Why do you think one can't just pick the mods from it like one picks mods from the core book? Is there any line that specifically states you have to use the optional rules for installing mods if you simply want to use the mods like we use mods from core?

Abstract as in "Ressources spent during character generation, however, do not neccessarily reflect actual nuyen spent - if a character has something that would normally be out of her price range, it could be justified as a gift from a mysterious benefactor" (SR4 p. 63).

As long as you have the ressources, you can get an item. No reason you can't assume you got a mod. If there's no cost listed for having it installed, but you can buy it, then, according to this literal interpretation, installing it is free.

Otherwise, you are trying to use common sense to claim it has to cost something - and that would mean you'd have to accept common snese ruling that one buys it from a gunsmith shop.

Arsenal is optional, sure. Modifications are in arsenal. If you aren't using arsenal, you don't have modifications. If you have modifications, the rules requiring them to be installed come with. You can pick and choose what rules you want to follow from which books, sure, but unless the rules list themselves as optional, then it isn't RAW.

I did say you can buy weapons with mods, but only the ones that are listed as coming with mods, and count as "unmodified" with their built in mods. There are no mods in the core book. There are accessories, which don't require tests to attach/remove (except for the smartlink, which explicitly says its test).

Sure, except it can't be out of your price range. Your price range is determined by how many BP you put into resources. Justify it however you want.

Yes, you can buy a mod, thats fine. You can't install it during chargen, as there are a couple of skill rolls, and you can't make skill rolls in chargen. You can start with your SMG, and a gas vent 3 mod parts etc. You can't start with your SMG with a gas vent 3 installed unless it says it comes with one standard.

Actually, the examples in the modification section show that it costs something, both the plan, and the work if you don't do it yourself. Not to mention having access to a kit/shop/facility. And there is always the chance of critical failure during the installation.

Where does it say "If you play with mods, you have to use all the rules to install them as well"?

Optional rules are, by default, pick and choose. RAW does not prohibit you to pick the items, and skip the installment.

I'd even say that cybeware is a good precedent - you don't have to pick the cyberware installment rules to play with cyber.

I don't think either of these are really covered in the books. Whether they come with mods or not. Yes there are rules for installing it, but you are allowed to use guns put together by other people. There are rules for installing cyberware, but usually that has to be done by someone else. There's even prices for hospital stays, but these aren't payed for during chargen for your implants. We don't have prices for other people to install mods (but generally most places now charge about 10-15% of materials I believe).

Not allowing them to come built after paying resources is ok, if you want everyone to build their own, or if you want to handle it in game. It provides more character if you actually have to roll for building your gun.
Quick and easy and not require every gun wielding samurai to also be a master armourer to have his pimped out gun, you can have the come prebuilt.

I prefer my characters to not just "pop" into existance. They lived before now, so they could have had work done beforehand by someone else, or done it themselves. Same reason why I allow the skillgroups to be split in chargen, they had groups before, and then they broke them.

Except, that modifications aren't listed as an optional rule in arsenal. If you are using the arsenal rulebook, you get equipment modifications, their rules and all. Cyberware is not a good example, as the optional rules for installing it explicitly say they are optional. Aug, 120, "The basic rules presented in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition address the uses for First Aid and Medicine that characters need to clean up and mend themselves after a run. Groups are free to use any or all of the advanced rules in this chapter as they see fit to add further depth to various aspects of medical treatment and implantation."


Again, rules for installing cyberware are optional. If you want weapon mods, you HAVE to take the rules to install them by RAW.


Sure, but you should pay out of your allocated resources ¥ to account for any of that. Its a non-specific resource. Whether you inherited all your stuff from your daddy, or not, you still have to "pay" with your resource nuyen.

Uh... my SR4 book allows me to buy an SMG with an internal smartgun system at character generation (SR4, p. 311 f.). That's a mod, and it comes installed. Following that, you can buy weapons with other mods already installed as well. Tons of example characters use modded (smartlinked) weapons or with a silencer/suppressor, installed, as per the description.

Its actually an accessory. Until you put arsenal with it, and arsenal replaces it to be a modification, with the modification rules.

Accessories don't take a test to install, so silencer/suppressors etc don't have to come pre-installed, because putting on is as simple as saying "i put on the silencer".

As I said, an external smartlink accessory takes a test, which is explicitly mentioned in its description, there is no mention of a way to avoid this test, so you would have to have it come uninstalled, and then succeed at the test to install it after chargen.

And no, you do not have to use optional rules as a whole. Arsenal, p. 128: "the gamemaster and his group can go to any level of complexity when it comes to describing the acquiring of parts and implementation of one's ideas. When it comes down to the rules, however, we suggest you use what's presented here"

Yes, but if you don't use it, it isn't RAW.

Also, its complexity of describing the acquiring of parts. Not the actual attaching the parts to the weapon. Describe it all you want, it doesn't come pre-attached.

Are you claiming that we cannot buy weapons modded with internal smartlinks at character generation even though SR4 directly says you can?

Sure it comes:

Player: "I buy the weapon with that mod installed".

DM: "Ok."

I'm saying that if you are using arsenal, you can't, because arsenal replaces the listing in SR4 with its own, which then follows the modifications rules. If you are not using arsenal, then SR4 applies, and you can.

Where does it say that you have to use Arsenal instead of the corebook?

It suggests to use the Arsenal rules for installing, but it doesn't require it. And since SR4 BBB is RAW, you can use those rules still, and remain RAW.

Arsenal, 153, "Smartgun System: This modification is the internal version of the smartgun system (pp. 311–312, SR4)."

Since the modification rules cover all the modifications, and the internal smartgun is one, it needs to be installed.

The alternate interpretation, is that since it is the only modification with text that explicitly allows it to be installed at chargen, it is the ONLY modification you can start with at chargen. Which I could buy also, being that internal smartlink would probably be the most common modification done, and thus would be available for any weapon.

Ok, so we're not debating what the rules are. We're debating what you call it when you make an assumption that's based on the rules, but is not explicitly stated in them. WHY ARE WE DEBATING THAT? It matters not one whit whether you call it "following the RAW" or not. Both sides agree that is a good and appropriate thing to do, so the only disagreement is about worthless semantics. It hurts my heart to have this discussion keep on beating a dead horse that was irrelevant to begin with. You hear me? You guys are beating THE WRONG DEAD HORSE!

Because I enjoy it.

You've had enough enjoyment! You're going to give me an aneurism! You want that on your conscience? Do you???

There is no such thing as enough enjoyment. As far as your anneurisms are concerned, maybe you should stop taking it so personally/seriously.