Martial arts positive quality, 5-? BP Options

[BullZeye]

On page 156 of Arsenal the martial arts positive quality is 5 to 20 bp but is it per style? I've seen some builds here on dumpshock that have 35bp worth of martial arts but I rule in my game that 20bp is max but you can take 4 different styles 5bp each but no more than that 20bp.

Which is it? Limiting it to 20bp would remove that +7P damage stacking...

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

It's 5-20 per style. Some don't even have more than three bonuses and would be silly to take up to 20. Being that it says you can take multiple styles as long as you spend the BP or karma to learn that style, then you get the bonuses. Even though learning specific styles just to take the damage mods is quite a bit of munchkining, it's allowed by RAW.

[ElFenrir]

20 BP per style.

See, by RAW, you can take 7 different martial arts and take +1 DV per martial art. I say by RAW, because they don't *forbid* it.

You can, though, take 20 BP and ''max out'' a martial art. So someone can, say, take Kickboxing: 4(20 BP), and have all four of the benefits. But it's rare when someone does that, since DV stacking is too tempting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) This is why a lot of us just houserule ''+2 DV, and that's it. You can get it from 1 martial art, or 2 martial arts, but beyond that, you have to pick other abilities.''

But someone can take 1 martial art at level 4 for 20, and another at level 3 for 15, and have a bunch of different benefits. (Someone with Kickboxing 4 and Carromeleg 3 would get all four Kickboxing benefits, and 3 of the 4 Carromeleg benefits.)

Hope that makes sense. I actually find it a better houserule, rather than limit martial arts to 20 BP total, just limit the DV stacking to +2, and if they want to get the other abilities, they can knock themselves out. But if 20 BP of MA works in your game better, that's cool too.

[Drogos]

That 35 BP limit is only for starting characters. With enough Karma, a character could be a master of every form known to man (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I keep the limit to 20 BP per style as there are real world examples of fighters with mastery or training in several different styles. El's houserule to capping the bonus to DV is a more acceptable fix, imo. There's really only so much training one can have in inflicting pain afterall. Real world styles generally have similar methods of increasing the pain of their attacks.

[ElFenrir]

I agree that there is probably some wise old master out there with a ton of karma invested in lots of styles.

The DV houserule is, as I said in another thread, usually against my ''leaner, slighty more beefed up campaigns'', but it was just one of those oddities that didn't sit well with me. You know, if I saw people, say, take all kinds of advantages with the martial arts(+2 DV, +2 Surprises, +1 Block, +1 Knockdown, etc), I might not have instigated the houserule. But all I saw were people only taking constant +DVs, unless they were Firefight/Krav Maga(where it's -3 Melee, Ready Weapon Free Action.) It made me sort of feel like it became the ''must have.'' Again, I've made some cybered sams who can hit for 9+ DV, and that's only taking +2 DV with the martial arts. It's not even that hard to get a sam around there, and it doesn't require a lot of twinking. Same for an adept.

I also pointed out before, +2 DV is still excellent. That 2 strength old master with 2 levels of bone density(helps the pesky old bones out), and some hardliners, and +2 DV to his art is smacking you for 5P. That ain't bad for a skinny old geezer. In fact, that's as hard as a 9 Strength troll. It makes sense you should be allowed to beef the DV somewhat, but as I was ranting a bit before, I just grew a little tired of only ever seeing +6 DVs stacking up. I'm even totally cool with someone ONLY taking the +2 DV. I'm perfectly fine with someone taking Strength 7, Bone Density 4 and +2 DV with hardliners on top of it. At least that costs some more resources and some essence.

But when it's ''only'' +6 with all the other options, it's like ''dude, mix and match. Accessorize a bit.'' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[DTFarstar]

I cap it at +4 as opposed to +2, but I think it does need a cap of some sort.

Chris

[MJBurrage]

RAW does explicitly allow stacking the benefits of Advantages (with the resulting die/DV bonus limited to the characters relevant combat skill rating)

However my group has always interpreted that to mean that complementary Advantages from different arts may be used together, but that if two arts have the exact same Advantage, than the stated limits of the martial art still exist.

This only maters for:

• +1 die on Attacks to Knockdown (1,1,1,1,1)
• +1 die on Called Shots to disarm (1,1)
• +1 die on Called Shots to increase attack damage (1,1)
• +1 die on Defense Tests against unarmed attacks (2,1)
• +1 die on Full Parry (1,1,1,1)
• +1 die on Gymnastics Dodge (1,1)
• +1 die on melee block (but not dodge or parry) Defense Tests (2,1)
• +1 die on melee dodge (but not block or parry) Defense Tests (2,1,1)
• +1 die on Subduing (1,1,2)
• +1 die on Surprise Tests when initiating an attack (2,1)
• +1 DV on Blades attacks (1,1)
• +1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks (2,1,1,2,1,1)
• Reduce the ranged combat “attacker in melee combatâ€? modifier by 1 (2,1,1)

For example, there are three martial art styles that grant "+1 die on Subduing" but only one lets you take it twice (noted as 1,1,2 above). By strict RAW one could argue for taking four levels, but we would only allow two.

To us "stacking" means combining different but overlapping Advantages, so if you knew "+1 die on Defense Tests against unarmed attacks", "+1 die on Full Dodge", and "+1 die on melee dodge" (twice), you could get +4 dice for full dodging when your armed and your opponent is not.

Our thinking is that if you could actually get "+1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks" seven times, than past masters would have studied this and individual styles would not be limited to only one or two levels.

Another example of stacking we would allow would be that if a character knew both "+1 die on Called Shots to disarm" and "+1 die on Called Shots to increase attack damage" they could get +2 dice on a called shot to the hand of a target with intent to hurt the target enough that they drop their weapon.

[Sgt_Pedro]

RAW does explicitly allow stacking the benefits of Advantages (with the resulting die/DV bonus limited to the characters relevant combat skill rating)

However my group has always interpreted that to mean that complementary Advantages from different arts may be used together, but that if two arts have the exact same Advantage, than the stated limits of the martial art still exist.

This only maters for:

• +1 die on Attacks to Knockdown (1,1,1,1,1)
• +1 die on Called Shots to disarm (1,1)
• +1 die on Called Shots to increase attack damage (1,1)
• +1 die on Defense Tests against unarmed attacks (2,1)
• +1 die on Full Parry (1,1,1,1)
• +1 die on Gymnastics Dodge (1,1)
• +1 die on melee block (but not dodge or parry) Defense Tests (2,1)
• +1 die on melee dodge (but not block or parry) Defense Tests (2,1,1)
• +1 die on Subduing (1,1,2)
• +1 die on Surprise Tests when initiating an attack (2,1)
• +1 DV on Blades attacks (1,1)
• +1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks (2,1,1,2,1,1)
• Reduce the ranged combat “attacker in melee combatâ€? modifier by 1 (2,1,1)

For example, there are three martial art styles that grant "+1 die on Subduing" but only one lets you take it twice (noted as 1,1,2 above). By strict RAW one could argue for taking four levels, but we would only allow two.

To us "stacking" means combining different but overlapping Advantages, so if you knew "+1 die on Defense Tests against unarmed attacks", "+1 die on Full Dodge", and "+1 die on melee dodge" (twice), you could get +4 dice for full dodging when your armed and your opponent is not.

Our thinking is that if you could actually get "+1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks" seven times, than past masters would have studied this and individual styles would not be limited to only one or two levels.

Another example of stacking we would allow would be that if a character knew both "+1 die on Called Shots to disarm" and "+1 die on Called Shots to increase attack damage" they could get +2 dice on a called shot to the hand of a target with intent to hurt the target enough that they drop their weapon.

This is correct. People often take RAW to mean "exact text" rather than "exact spirit". If you're using a punch you picked up from your Boxing class, the TKD backfist isn't making that punch stronger. The spirit of the rules is OBVIOUSLY as MJBurrage wrote above. Anything else is a douchebag player trying to take advantage of the spirit of a nice rule addition.

[Cain]

Anything else is a douchebag player trying to take advantage of the spirit of a nice rule addition.

Or a new player, who's used to a powergaming atmosphere. Or an older player, who's experience in Shadowrun is that you need to munchkin to survive. Or someone who's suffered under a GM that liked to take everything conceivable away from the players as possible.

It's not always the player's fault. There's douchebag GMs as well.

[Tarantula]

This is correct. People often take RAW to mean "exact text" rather than "exact spirit".

Maybe thats because RAW stands for Rules As Written and not Rules As Intended.

[Whipstitch]

Plus, the game is rather abstract. You could have +4 DV as opposed to +2 DV because you're so good you can set your opponents up and cherry pick the hypothetical "perfect" attack combination for any given situation. You're a TKD and Boxing master? Maybe you uppercut the guy because he left his chin hanging out there and you follow it up with a quick kick to the gut as his guard opens up. After all, do you really think that a mundane martial arts master with no extra passes takes an entire 3 second combat turn to deliver a single no frills strike or do you think he does whatever it is he does and then the results are reflected in the DV? I can't help but think that the latter makes more sense. Now, I agree that it doesn't make sense that the man's boxing strike is any more effective just because he knows how to do that sidekick, but that's something that should really only matter in a boxing match where he limits his repertoire in accordance to the rules. In that case it makes plenty of sense to limit the DV to reflect what he is capable of when limiting himself to boxing. So, while I respect the decision of any GM who nerfs the RAW in the name of passing the sniff test (suspension of disbelief is nothing if not subjective, after all) and balancing the game, I must stridently disagree with anyone who claims that any other school of thought is only supported by douchebags. We should be better and smarter than that.

[Sgt_Pedro]

I stand corrected as to the RAW part. I just reread the black box where it explicitly states the bonuses stack. But, it's called an optional rule for a reason, and my ruling as a GM stands with MJBurrage. It makes so little sense to me to let someone take +7(or whatever you can get) DV just from MA that it never even crossed my mind it would be written otherwise.

[Tarantula]

Yes, as with many things, it -can- cause game balance issues if the GM doesn't take control over how munchkin of a game he wants to have. Though, letting people get +7 DV from qualities isn't any worse than letting them get +6DV from being an adept.

[ElFenrir]

Honestly, I don't think just douchebags do it. As said, i mean, it's there, it doesn't say no, and it's tempting. But...I do believe, still, there is some 'spirit'' to follow, and jamming 7 DV onto an attack like that sorta, somehow...I guess it's just personal. Like, if someone brings ''max power, elven former company man'' to the table, and he has Muscle Augmentation/Toner, a Suprathyroid, Bone Density 4 and some Wired Reflexes, with +2 DV on martial arts, I'm like ''Ok! Max Power kicks some ass.''

But if someone brings someone with 7 different DV stacking martial arts and stacks them all up, it irks me...even if ''Max Power'' is doing the same DV via ware.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Something just dawned on me. You have to remember that those bonuses apply only when using those martial arts styles. If you have a dabbling of 5 different martial arts styles, you still have to pick which martial art style you're using for the attack. At most one can end up with a +1 or +2 DV for whichever style they're using at that time. It doesn't take an action (free, simple, or non) to change what style you're using, but you have to at least mention which one you're using to explain what kind of attack you're using.

[Ol' Scratch]

Just because the designers didn't have the foresight (as is the case in many, many places in SR4), that doesn't mean abusing the rules is anything other than abusing the rules.

[Sgt_Pedro]

Just because the designers didn't have the foresight (as is the case in many, many places in SR4), that doesn't mean abusing the rules is anything other than abusing the rules.

Logic and maturity prevails!

[Whipstitch]

Something just dawned on me. You have to remember that those bonuses apply only when using those martial arts styles. If you have a dabbling of 5 different martial arts styles, you still have to pick which martial art style you're using for the attack. At most one can end up with a +1 or +2 DV for whichever style they're using at that time. It doesn't take an action (free, simple, or non) to change what style you're using, but you have to at least mention which one you're using to explain what kind of attack you're using.

No, you don't. You use the applicable Close Combat skill and then you add the bonuses and penalties which apply to the situation. There's no "Pick one Martial Art to apply" put in at any time, although your GM may disallow your TKD bonuses if you happen to be fighting in waist deep water and are in no position to kick effectively. Again, the system works fine from a thematic point of view provided you chuck the conceit that opponents stand there like rock 'em sock 'em robots trading single, unadorned strikes at eachother once per three seconds. When you go in with a basic unarmed combat attack action, you're basically just announcing that you're moving in in order to do whatever it is you do that lets you threaten your damage value and imagination takes it from there.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Not by RAW. By logic and fair balance of gameplay though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As Drogos said earlier, "Real world styles generally have similar methods of increasing the pain of their attacks."

Learning a new technique for increasing damage that is incredibly similar to your old method for increasing damage isn't going to stack for more damage. It'll be more or less about the same.

In the other direction, learning a completely different way to apply heavy amounts of damage to a technique would be completely different and probably not even utilize your older methods of application. If boxing teaches you wide swinging hooks to get momentum in your arm to add extra power, the straight line put your body behind it applications of Karate won't stack to help make a combined attack of the two styles any better.

[Whipstitch]

If that's what you want to do, then do it. I just get tired of people coming in and implying "This is how it is done" when it's simply not so by the RAW.

Pedro: I also really wish you would check in the maturity and logic comments at the door. It's needlessly condescending.

[toturi]

Just because the designers didn't have the foresight (as is the case in many, many places in SR4), that doesn't mean abusing the rules is anything other than abusing the rules.

You cannot abuse the rules without using the rules either. Without a clear rule that defines abuse, while there may be abuse of the rules but you can only determine abuse in an ad hoc manner. Which in itself should be an abuse of the rules but is not because there is no definition of abuse within the rules.

[Platinum Dragon]

By RAW, you do not have to 'pick a style.' +1DV is +1DV. RAI... who knows? Common sense, limiting DV bonus to 2-4 seems sensible.

Yes, as with many things, it -can- cause game balance issues if the GM doesn't take control over how munchkin of a game he wants to have. Though, letting people get +7 DV from qualities isn't any worse than letting them get +6DV from being an adept.

Why choose? 6DV from adept and 6DV from martial arts! Combine and conquer!

[toturi]

Not by RAW. By logic and fair balance of gameplay though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As Drogos said earlier, "Real world styles generally have similar methods of increasing the pain of their attacks."

Learning a new technique for increasing damage that is incredibly similar to your old method for increasing damage isn't going to stack for more damage. It'll be more or less about the same.

In the other direction, learning a completely different way to apply heavy amounts of damage to a technique would be completely different and probably not even utilize your older methods of application. If boxing teaches you wide swinging hooks to get momentum in your arm to add extra power, the straight line put your body behind it applications of Karate won't stack to help make a combined attack of the two styles any better.

Yet in Shadowrun, a close combat attack is not a single punch (or even a single successful punch) or kick, it is a series of attacks amalgamated into a Complex action. In effect, you could combine boxing's wide hook with karate's straight line strike into these series of punches and kicks to deal more damage. You could hit your opponent with a roundhouse kick, then an uppercut, followed by a muay thai elbow strike in a single attack.

[Glyph]

There are already mixed martial arts in real life. UFC fighters combine the best of various styles so that they can hit, grapple, and defend effectively against either. Someone getting, say, +4 to blocking from several different martial arts is hardly "abusing" the rules when the rules explicitly state that it works that way. If you think that's too powerful, then you can either not use the martial arts rules, or house rule them differently. But don't try to sell me some supposed "intent" of the rules that simply isn't there.

DV's, however, are a nebulous area. That sidebar states that bonuses stack, but then in the next sentence, it talks about dice modifiers. So either DV's stack and they phrased it clumsily, they don't stack, or they aren't limited at all, since they don't affect dice pools. I choose the middle option, which tops it off at +2. I don't find it logical that martial arts skill could give you a higher bonus to your damage code than a soft-maxed adept could get. +2 to DV already lets someone with a Strength of 1 hit for the same damage as someone with a Strength of 6, or lets someone with a Strength of 6 hit for the same damage as a troll with a Strength of 10.

But if I ran a campaign, I would let the players know this rules interpretation ahead of time, and I wouldn't automatically assume someone trying to max out his DV was a raging munchkin, any more than someone getting muscle toner or a smartlink for their street samurai would be.

[Sgt_Pedro]

My problem is with the argument that RAW means "I can do this, it says so" attitude. I would never play with someone like that. So I guess it doesn't matter if he and I disagree.

But, anybody who puts:

Martial Arts (35BP)
- Boxing (+2 DV w/ Unarmed)
- Karate (+1 DV w/ Unarmed)
- Kung Fu (+1 DV w/ Unarmed)
- Muay Thai (+2 DV w/ Unarmed)
- Tae Kwon Do (+1 DV w/ Unarmed)

on a character sheet, is unequivocally a douchebag =P

Whip: I tend to forget people don't see the grin on my face when writing on the interweb. Text has the annoying habit of not conveying emotion very well. I'll just put more smiley faces in my posts or something.