Oni cost? Options

[Travaler]

I was wandering why the Oni costs 5BP more then a regular ork if all it changes from the base are disadvantages ("Striking Skin Pigmentation" and some fluff Prejudice that is on top of the regular prejudice accorded to Orks)



any Ideas?

[GreyBrother]

'cuz you are speschül (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[The Mack]

I was wandering why the Oni costs 5BP more then a regular ork if all it changes from the base are disadvantages ("Striking Skin Pigmentation" and some fluff Prejudice that is on top of the regular prejudice accorded to Orks)



any Ideas?

I believe that part of the pricing of metatypes (all metatypes) is based on their rarity in SR background, and not solely on mechanical benefits.

[Muspellsheimr]

I believe that part of the pricing of metatypes (all metatypes) is based on their rarity in SR background, and not solely on mechanical benefits.

Which is the single most defining reason why Runners Companion, in regards to game balance, fails.

[Glyph]

The metavariants are deliberately unbalanced in order to make both powergamers and roleplayers happy. The powergamers will be happy because they can say, "Look! For 5 more points to be a Fomorian, you get a metagenetic improvement to Body instead of just dermal armor, and you get the arcane arrestor quality! Kickass!" The roleplayers will be happy because they can say "Look! Oni cost 5 points more despite the fact that they only get additional disadvantages compared to a regular ork, but I'm still playing one! And he's also got the spell knack quality, and none of his dice pools are higher than 5! I'm roleplaying!"

It's quite brilliant, actually.

[Ryu]

What Glyph says. Increasing price is a valid method to induce rarity in a points-buy system. SR4 is not a strategy game, and fair pricing has to include stuff like the "coolness" of an option. There is also no perfect sweet spot of balance for anything, as different players have different perceptions.

[Medicineman]

and the Roleplaying Min/Maxer (like Myself ) is making an Oni with 750 Karma (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

with a speschül Dance
Medicineman

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Actually, it's still retarded. For the same reason that the Druid isn't balanced in D&D.

[Lordmalachdrim]

"Balanced" is over rated. Give me a game to GM where it's less concerned about being mechanically fair to all and more true to the fluff, helping me bring the world to life.

[Veggiesama]

Balance is integral to any game system. If something is too powerful, then more people will gravitate toward it. If something is too weak, then people will shy away. If a game system does one or the other, then a player's options are cut down, which in the long term leads to stagnation. They key is to find a balance.

If I want to play a character crippled in some way (ex. lost a leg in war, or has severe social anxieties), then I should be compensated in some other way (ex. powerful cyber-leg, or a negative quality that grants free BP for other pursuits). If I'm not compensated, then I simply won't cripple myself.

Flaws make for interesting characters, but uncompensated flaws make for lousy gameplay.

In the Oni's case, the "Ohh, I'm new and different" perk would quickly wear thin, and you'd be stuck with a virtual BP penalty. 5 BP is about 10 karma, which is about an adventure behind your companions.

Encouraging rarity by penalizing is a lame idea. They don't do it to mages, and those guys are supposed to be uber-rare. Simply writing "Oni only come from Japan" (or whatever) is more than adequate, because it forces the player to integrate something into their backstory, which leads them on the path to better roleplaying. Why should there be an extra BP penalty involved?

[deek]

If I want to play a character crippled in some way (ex. lost a leg in war, or has severe social anxieties), then I should be compensated in some other way (ex. powerful cyber-leg, or a negative quality that grants free BP for other pursuits). If I'm not compensated, then I simply won't cripple myself.

And that is where the line is drawn, really. Some players feel that if they give themselves a disadvantage, that they should somehow be rewarded in another area. While others just like the extra challenge in roleplaying an "crippled" character.

It reminds me of a HERO game I played a couple years back. We were all a special military investigative unit. I built my character to be deaf to normal sound, but had a special power to allow me to hear on radio frequencies. So, when we were on missions, I was fine, cause we communicated over the radio, but for everything else, I couldn't hear and roleplayed that very well. I was quite upset when my GM gave me my hearing back in a later adventure...the whole point for that character was the struggle and giving me a challenge to roleplay... I didn't need nor want compensation...

When the point is to have fun, then balance takes a backseat. When the point is to "win", well, then everything needs to be balanced.

[suppenhuhn]

And that is where the line is drawn, really. Some players feel that if they give themselves a disadvantage, that they should somehow be rewarded in another area. While others just like the extra challenge in roleplaying an "crippled" character.

It reminds me of a HERO game I played a couple years back. We were all a special military investigative unit. I built my character to be deaf to normal sound, but had a special power to allow me to hear on radio frequencies. So, when we were on missions, I was fine, cause we communicated over the radio, but for everything else, I couldn't hear and roleplayed that very well. I was quite upset when my GM gave me my hearing back in a later adventure...the whole point for that character was the struggle and giving me a challenge to roleplay... I didn't need nor want compensation...

Huh?
Enhanced Sense: Radio Perception, 8 Points
Physical Limitation: Deaf (Frequently,Greatly), -15 Points

Looks pretty much like compensation to me.

The whole point of rules is to balance things. Onis are from Japan, so most likely they have to spend some knowledge skills on English and rarely used japanese stuff. There's no need to make them more expensive as a race.
Runners Companion would have been much better (as in actually useful) if the writers would have taken the effort to balance things. Karma Generation could have been balanced to BP gen with not that much effort but they prefered to pull some numbers out of their ass because it's more convenient.
Same for lifestyle qualities and new races. The fluff might be nice but rules wise the whole book sucks.

[paws2sky]

Which is the single most defining reason why Runners Companion, in regards to game balance, fails.

Agreed.

My wife wanted to make an Ork with green skin (we've played too much Warhammer) and saw the Hobgoblin metavariant, which seemed to fit the concept, except for the Fangs. It was even vindictive, which she liked.

After thinking about it though, we opted for a Class I Changeling with green skin, a couple metagenetic positive qualities, and poor self control (vindictive). She saved 5 BP doing it that way.

Even my "yay, RP!" / "meh, rules" wife saw it as a bad deal.

-paws

[Jhaiisiin]

Hmm... 5 extra build points for the rarity of being an oni... vs 20 extra build points for the rarity of being a magician. And they don't do it to mages how?

[Draco18s]

Hmm... 5 extra build points for the rarity of being an oni... vs 20 extra build points for the rarity of being a magician. And they don't do it to mages how?

"Magician" is a little bit more beneficial than oni.

Just

a

little.

[TBRMInsanity]

I remember back in SR2 that I had a house rule that stated if you use the standard modifiers for what ever race you wanted to play and you were also from the country where the metavariant originates from, then you are that metavariant (ie if you speak Japanese as your main language, your back story puts you in Japan, your an ork, then I allowed the character to be an Oni). The key to this was that you maintained the standard racial modifiers (just looked different).

Run the idea by your GM and see if they go for it.

[deek]

Huh?
Enhanced Sense: Radio Perception, 8 Points
Physical Limitation: Deaf (Frequently,Greatly), -15 Points

Looks pretty much like compensation to me.

Okay, there is compensation there, but its not balanced. Maybe I am misinterpreting balance by assuming that a crippling effect is offset completely by a beneficial effect.

I've also played a blind fighter in 2E DnD. Now I did take blind-fighting to minimize my penalty in combat. But, I spent more points on something I didnt' have to take at all...in order to play with a flaw. The DM did make me do it, I did it on my own to play something different and challenging. Again, its fun versus win.

[HappyDaze]

The whole point of rules is to balance things. Onis are from Japan, so most likely they have to spend some knowledge skills on English and rarely used japanese stuff. There's no need to make them more expensive as a race.

If you're playing in Seattle (for example), there's no reason your ethnically Japanese ork/oni can't take English as his/her native tongue. Likewise, starting knowledges are in no way restricted. The ethnicity is bound to the metavariant, not your background Knowledges/Languages and fluff.

[suppenhuhn]

Okay, there is compensation there, but its not balanced. Maybe I am misinterpreting balance by assuming that a crippling effect is offset completely by a beneficial effect.

I've also played a blind fighter in 2E DnD. Now I did take blind-fighting to minimize my penalty in combat. But, I spent more points on something I didnt' have to take at all...in order to play with a flaw. The DM did make me do it, I did it on my own to play something different and challenging. Again, its fun versus win.

Well i once played a colour-blind illusionist in GURPS and was of course much more hindered by that then the cost of that disadvantage would suggest.
That has got nothing to do with deliberately making some races cheaper/more expensive because you want them to be common or rare though.

If you're playing in Seattle (for example), there's no reason your ethnically Japanese ork/oni can't take English as his/her native tongue. Likewise, starting knowledges are in no way restricted. The ethnicity is bound to the metavariant, not your background Knowledges/Languages and fluff.

That's why i said most likely and not has to.

[paws2sky]

If you're playing in Seattle (for example), there's no reason your ethnically Japanese ork/oni can't take English as his/her native tongue. Likewise, starting knowledges are in no way restricted. The ethnicity is bound to the metavariant, not your background Knowledges/Languages and fluff.

Right, it has nothing to do with geography. Japan doesn't has some weird Aspect that dramatically improves the chance of robustus express as Oni instead of baseline Orks. I say dramatically improves because not all ethic Japanese robustus are only (its a startling majority, still like 75%+ Oni) .

Anyone, anywhere with Japanese ancestry could become an Oni if they had the metagenes to become an Ork. Or they could be a regular Ork, though it would be much less common.

-paws

[BullZeye]

It always is amazing how some prefer to make a character with combination of some odd negative quality and profession/positive quality/whatnot. How about making a blind sniper? Seriously, why would someone with a handicap to something become something like that? Yes, if the character WAS a sniper but was blinded, he still can shoot, but he most likely have learned to do something else instead. Guess that's the "freakshow" character type that some like to play and the only thing the character is, is that combination of oddities.

If one reads the fluff about Oni's, there's a lot more to them. Game mechanic-wise they aren't that much different than orcs, but so what? As some already said, it's also about rarity in places like Seattle. If the game is located in Japan, GM might allow you to make Oni for 20BP.

Some prefer to have some more flavor to their characters with the negative aspects, while to most(?) it's about getting those few extra points to build up your character. If one would make a real life comparison, by far not all people are equally built for 400BPs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I myself prefer point buy games as they do make characters much less random and more the way I want the character to be. One bad roll can "ruin" the character concept. Point buy games it takes more skill to create the character than random style, but it still doesn't make them equal or balanced.

I also don't see how 5BP can make such a huge difference on a character build anyway?

[Larme]

"Magician" is a little bit more beneficial than oni.

Just

a

little.

Hey, quite exaggerating! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Anyway, is this such a big deal? Are onis being useless really the nail in the coffin of Runners Companion? I mean, really? They cost more because they are rarer. Don't like it? Let your players be one for free. But honestly, don't kick and scream about 5 points. This is such a minor "problem" that I consider it a non-issue. If anyone wants to complain about RC's balance as a whole, I probably won't argue very much, but that's for another thread. This thread is asking why oni cost points, and the question has been answered: no good reason, meh.

[The Mack]

They cost more because they are rarer.

snip...

This thread is asking why oni cost points, and the question has been answered: no good reason, meh.

Although I've reread through that section in Runner's companion and I have to wonder why Oni cost more than Ogres, seeing as Ogres are rarer than standard Orks, come with a (minor) benefit and cost the same as a standard Ork.

Compared to Oni, which account for more than 75% of robustus in Japan, and come with a no point negative quality.


Unfortunately the pricing decisions seem inconsistent, and somewhat arbitrary.

[deek]

It always is amazing how some prefer to make a character with combination of some odd negative quality and profession/positive quality/whatnot. How about making a blind sniper? Seriously, why would someone with a handicap to something become something like that? Yes, if the character WAS a sniper but was blinded, he still can shoot, but he most likely have learned to do something else instead. Guess that's the "freakshow" character type that some like to play and the only thing the character is, is that combination of oddities.

For me, its overcoming something to still be good at what I want to be good at. For instance, blind fire is what, -6 to your die pool? I'm sure I could still be quite a productive shooter if I always blindfolded myself when in a firefight. I guess its the feeling of tanking your character a little and still feeling satisfied that you can achieve goals. Its a style thing.

But, I do agree with your last sentence...with these types of characters, the combination of oddities define the character. Its highlighted and the rest of the background or style you may have been able to create gets lost. But unlike heavy background characters, you've actually forced the style on your character. I have played as and with way too many people that come up with a storied background but once play starts, the character takes on a different persona and the background is left on the character sheet.

Let's face it, there are at least two camps here...and min/maxers are never going to choose a disadvantage that has no benefit. Otherwise, they wouldn't be min/maxing. While, others are willing to risk being less badass at something to have some extra flavor that they have to play each and every encounter...

[Travaler]

Just to put it out there I'm playing the Oni regardless of the 5BP ...I was just wandering if I missed some reasoning behind the higher cost

[[Here is the Character that spurred the question BTW]]

[Muspellsheimr]

The reasoning behind the higher cost, as said, is because they are 'rare', a system the developers have said they support using, despite it being inconsistent & completely fucking retarded.



Deek: You seem to be under the impression that one cannot create a character to just have fun without intentionally gimping their character, an assumption that is without basis & entirely false. I play characters that are actually good at their job. Why? Because its fucking fun.

The Build Point cost for metatypes is a mechanical balancing system, and as such, should include the mechanical benefits & hindrances of the race in question - and only those benefits & hindrances.

The rarity of a species is entirely fluff, & should be included only in the fluff. Do not punish players for it. If the race is balanced properly, it does not suddenly become the desired choice of powergamers, it does become a viable option for those who wanted to play the race, but justifiably felt the absurd cost was a punishment.


I would also like to remind you that player characters are, by their definition, rare, & often unique. Saying a species is rare cannot justify higher-than-normal costs in a game where being rare is normal.

[Draco18s]

Although I've reread through that section in Runner's companion and I have to wonder why Oni cost more than Ogres, seeing as Ogres are rarer than standard Orks, come with a (minor) benefit and cost the same as a standard Ork.

Compared to Oni, which account for more than 75% of robustus in Japan, and come with a no point negative quality.


Unfortunately the pricing decisions seem inconsistent, and somewhat arbitrary.

Quote for truth. Seriously WTF.

[deek]

Deek: You seem to be under the impression that one cannot create a character to just have fun without intentionally gimping their character, an assumption that is without basis & entirely false. I play characters that are actually good at their job. Why? Because its fucking fun.

No, but I can see how what I have written can be taken that way. I was just saying that a character can be fun to play without being fully optimized. And just because one shooter has two less dice (for example) than another shooter, doesn't mean the former sucks.

So, whether my not fully optimized character is due to me not knowing the rules well enough to squeeze out a few extra dice, or because I chose to intentionally gimp him...if I am still having fun, then no harm. And really, in my 20 or so years of gaming, I think I may have intentionally gimped maybe 2 or 3 characters. Another handful of characters had weird builds, usually resulting in less than stellar performance, but when you are playing with a group that doesn't need full optimization in each character, its not a big deal.

As to the Oni. I don't particularly agree with the direction of using BP to make something rare. Doesn't make sense to me. But, then again, 5BP is not going to sway me away from an Oni if that is what I want to play.

[Draco18s]

As to the Oni. I don't particularly agree with the direction of using BP to make something rare. Doesn't make sense to me. But, then again, 5BP is not going to sway me away from an Oni if that is what I want to play.

I also agree with this. I played a drake adept, while the same build done as a troll would have come out just as effective, troll stats, and 25 BP left over, at the cost of "being a fucking dragon sometimes" (which I never got to use, I was waiting for a time when it was needed and then the game died suddenly--we're playing Alpha Omega now).

[tsuyoshikentsu]

As to the Oni. I don't particularly agree with the direction of using BP to make something rare. Doesn't make sense to me. But, then again, 5BP is not going to sway me away from an Oni if that is what I want to play.

For a lot of us, myself included, that equation works the other way: I would never want to play an Oni because it's 5 BP down the drain. If I REALLY wanted to play an Oni, I'd start as an Ogre and take Changeling I, with the skin as my disadvantage. Better in every way, except my limit of Positive Qualities is slightly higher.

[deek]

For a lot of us, myself included, that equation works the other way: I would never want to play an Oni because it's 5 BP down the drain. If I REALLY wanted to play an Oni, I'd start as an Ogre and take Changeling I, with the skin as my disadvantage. Better in every way, except my limit of Positive Qualities is slightly higher.

Yup, understood. One of my better friends is like that as well and whenever I take a flaw like this, he is quick to point out that I could have the same end result and not be out anything.

But, I also enjoy Nethack, 10+ year old computers running linux and occaisionally write a letter with my 1960s smith-corona typewriter...I'm obviously a lost cause:)

[BullZeye]

For a lot of us, myself included, that equation works the other way: I would never want to play an Oni because it's 5 BP down the drain. If I REALLY wanted to play an Oni, I'd start as an Ogre and take Changeling I, with the skin as my disadvantage. Better in every way, except my limit of Positive Qualities is slightly higher.

Except Ogre with weird skin is a freak while Oni is just an orc from Japan. It's also about blending in and how people react to the particular race. If you look blindly at the numbers, then you are right. Who cares about fluff when you can get one skill one higher and 5000y more for the same, eh? Oni is Oni, it costs 25BP according to the dev's.

Cry some more!

[Mäx]

Karma Generation could have been balanced to BP gen with not that much effort but they prefered to pull some numbers out of their ass because it's more convenient.

It's really not that easy to do.
And anyway those chargen methods aren't even ment to balanced with each other, that why it's not recomended to mix them.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Except Ogre with weird skin is a freak while Oni is just an orc from Japan.

Nope. An Oni is an ork with a particular skin color. If I'm an ork and I have that skin color, I can call myself an oni all I want.

[Stahlseele]

oni don't get the weird skin only
they get weird nose, weird eyes, weird ears and weird hair too.
at least, according to the fluff and images . .
also, their teeth and horns are different too.

[suppenhuhn]

It's really not that easy to do.
And anyway those chargen methods aren't even ment to balanced with each other, that why it's not recomended to mix them.

Of course it's not as easy to do as guessing a number and writing that down.
But saying they aren't meant to be balanced with each other is just a nicer way of saying I was too lazy to make it something really useful because I didn't want to be writing a whole day on that chapter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

[Dhaise]

Page 38 of the Runner's companion says that the characters generated via the presented methods are designed to be balanced with each other, even if not exactly equal. That's basically an admission of 'dont check each others math,please'.

I'd slap down any player who wanted to cherry pick an Oni/metavariant creation on the cheap via SURGE. "Oh yeah, I look like an oni, Im treated like an oni until the rules mechanic penalizes me somewhere, then Im a SURGED Ork, but I don't have to pay as much to be an oni so I can save 5 whole bp's". On the whole though, I'm pretty selective about SURGE (it can be weird stuff,but generally not the identical weird readily available in a metavarient). Drop one of your attributes by a point and mtfo to buying gear.

[Red-ROM]

so I have to post on this, mainly because My screen name and avatar are from my SR3 Oni character. I can't even remember If I gained or lost anything in picking an Oni vs. Ork. I did it because I wanted to be an oni. what was harder for me in that game was taking Ninjitsu. I wanted to be a Ninja. but to take Ninjitsu, you had to either ; be actively working for a group of Ninja, or be a Renegade ninja. So I was a Renegade Oni Ninja, probably at a detriment to my numbers, but hey, I could have just been an ork with red skin who knew karate, but does that sound cool? Ninjitsu wasn't even the best martial art if you crunched the numbers. but a practitioner of Wildcat is NOT A NINJA!! I think that it costs 5 BP because it has to cost something right? I bet you can find 400 other instances in the rule books where the numbers don't quite even out. but is it worth it?

[Ryu]

Those 5 BP ensure that those who don´t really want to play an Oni won´t take the option. The rarity of the fluff is reflected in the crunch. You are free to play an Oni Wannabe/Lookalike, but be prepared to face social rejection on all fronts.

On the other hand, 5 BP are a totally marginal cost. It is a cooperative game. You "win" by the strength of your concept, the character you represent in the game. If your concept is no longer playable because of those 5 BP, it can´t have been good before. There is a ton of decisions that can be optimised, if you derive the same fun from that as I (formal education ruined me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) ).

[Larme]

The reasoning behind the higher cost, as said, is because they are 'rare', a system the developers have said they support using, despite it being inconsistent & completely fucking retarded.

Whence the rancor? Are you trying to start a flame war? That is a naughty thing to try to do.

Deek: You seem to be under the impression that one cannot create a character to just have fun without intentionally gimping their character, an assumption that is without basis & entirely false. I play characters that are actually good at their job. Why? Because its fucking fun.

You've probably already realized this, but just in case: if you think onis are too gimpy, don't make one. Why do you need to go on the offensive about a useless race which is entirely fluff based, and not at all useful system wise? Some people like things that are systemically useless but cool. You don't. Is that a reason to drop f-bombs all over the place? Play how you like, and don't try to start flame wars over someone else liking it different.

The Build Point cost for metatypes is a mechanical balancing system, and as such, should include the mechanical benefits & hindrances of the race in question - and only those benefits & hindrances.

What were those words you used? "An assumption that is without basis & entirely false?" Yeah, those words. The build point cost works however the developers want to use it. There is no right and wrong way to assign build points. There is just the way Muspellsheimr likes it, and the way he doesn't. But you can hardly blame the devs for using the latter system, as they are not physic, nor are you their boss.

I would point out that there are quite a few things that cost build points and are completely fluff-based and cosmetic. For instance, money costs build points, and can buy things that convey no systemic advantages, like virtual pets, and personality software for your weapons. If your assumption is true, then all those pieces of gear should be free, or should not exist in the game. I don't think many people would agree with you there, though.

Ultimately, you are pitching a hissy fit over a 5 point option. It's a very small thing! You're acting like have a few spurious choices here and there somehow ruins the game, like it's an attack on your psyche that you can't tolerate without going nuts. Seriously, chill out. Like I said in my last post, this is far from a big deal. You can be a weirdo with shiny skin for 5 points. Some people like that kind of thing. If you don't, that's cool. Make the oni cost the same as an ork, or less if you feel like it. The thing you shouldn't do about it is try to start a flame war with a hostile, accusatory, f-bomb laden post. Scan?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Those 5 BP ensure that those who don´t really want to play an Oni won´t take the option. The rarity of the fluff is reflected in the crunch. You are free to play an Oni Wannabe/Lookalike, but be prepared to face social rejection on all fronts.

On the other hand, 5 BP are a totally marginal cost. It is a cooperative game. You "win" by the strength of your concept, the character you represent in the game. If your concept is no longer playable because of those 5 BP, it can´t have been good before. There is a ton of decisions that can be optimised, if you derive the same fun from that as I (formal education ruined me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) ).

I know that this is not going to come as a surprise, but I like the Oni... the 5bp is completely inconsequential to my desire to play one... I mean really... it is only 5bp... 1 skill rank in a skill or 25,000 nuyen... big deal...

[Mäx]

Of course it's not as easy to do as guessing a number and writing that down.
But saying they aren't meant to be balanced with each other is just a nicer way of saying I was too lazy to make it something really useful because I didn't want to be writing a whole day on that chapter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

If you think it's that easy go ahed and post you system for all to see.
Seeing as 400Bp character can cost any where between 400 to 1000+ karma, it really isn't that easy to make gen systems balanced with each other.

[The Mack]

If you think it's that easy go ahed and post you system for all to see.
Seeing as 400Bp character can cost any where between 400 to 1000+ karma, it really isn't that easy to make gen systems balanced with each other.

The Oni race, mechanically speaking, isn't balanced within the BP system compared to other BP costs for races.

Not even when you take into consideration the "rarity" factor based on fluff, considering the price for "Ogres".


I don't have any problems with the BP system or KarmaGen system independantly or even when compared to each other.

What I dislike is starting out with BPs and then switching to karma for character advancement. But that's a whole different discussion.

[Muspellsheimr]

Those 5 BP ensure that those who don´t really want to play an Oni won´t take the option.

No, it doesn't. What it does is stop players who want to play an Oni from doing so, because they correctly feel they are being punished for the option. Properly balancing the option will allow anyone wanting to play an Oni to do so without harming their characters capabilities, & anyone who does not want to or does not care will not play an Oni, because it has no significant advantage relative to its cost.

The rarity of the fluff is reflected in the crunch.

Which is precisely the reason it fails. Fluff & crunch should compliment each other, but should never directly mix.

Whence the rancor? Are you trying to start a flame war? That is a naughty thing to try to do.

This has nothing about flame - it is everything about the options in Runners Companion being designed without any regards to balance. This is something that I have brought up repeatedly sense the books release.

You've probably already realized this, but just in case: if you think onis are too gimpy, don't make one. Why do you need to go on the offensive about a useless race which is entirely fluff based, and not at all useful system wise? Some people like things that are systemically useless but cool. You don't. Is that a reason to drop f-bombs all over the place? Play how you like, and don't try to start flame wars over someone else liking it different.

What were those words you used? "An assumption that is without basis & entirely false?" Yeah, those words. The build point cost works however the developers want to use it. There is no right and wrong way to assign build points. There is just the way Muspellsheimr likes it, and the way he doesn't. But you can hardly blame the devs for using the latter system, as they are not physic, nor are you their boss.

I would point out that there are quite a few things that cost build points and are completely fluff-based and cosmetic. For instance, money costs build points, and can buy things that convey no systemic advantages, like virtual pets, and personality software for your weapons. If your assumption is true, then all those pieces of gear should be free, or should not exist in the game. I don't think many people would agree with you there, though.

Ultimately, you are pitching a hissy fit over a 5 point option. It's a very small thing! You're acting like have a few spurious choices here and there somehow ruins the game, like it's an attack on your psyche that you can't tolerate without going nuts. Seriously, chill out. Like I said in my last post, this is far from a big deal. You can be a weirdo with shiny skin for 5 points. Some people like that kind of thing. If you don't, that's cool. Make the oni cost the same as an ork, or less if you feel like it. The thing you shouldn't do about it is try to start a flame war with a hostile, accusatory, f-bomb laden post. Scan?

What I want is a game that does not punish a player for playing what they would like to play. Shadowrun has a good foundational system. It has a good setting. Most importantly, I can change the rules where needed, which is why I play it. However, I should not need to change the rules to obtain a balanced game. House rules to fit a particular play style are fine. House rules to avoid gross balance issues in the system are not, & I have a ~20 page pamphlet for exactly that; some are currently experimental, but most are not.

The Oni is a 10BP discrepancy, not 5. It is one of the most minor balance issues in Runners Companion, & even SR4, but it is one of the most blatantly obvious, & the topic of this thread. Which is why I am discussing it. Finally, I would also like to point out that the Oni is cheaper than it should be; the Ork cost is off by 15BP.

[Dhaise]

What it does is stop players who want to play an Oni from doing so, because they correctly feel they are being punished for the option.

Why is the Oni a punishing cost compared to any other 'cost' in character creation? Because it can be a la carted on the cheap if someone is willing to dedicate their qualities to emulating the metatype?

[Muspellsheimr]

Because numerous other options give equal or greater benefits for lesser cost. Because of this, the characters abilities are noticeably reduced (if not greatly), simply because the player wanted a particular concept - a trade off that many people will not make. If it had been properly balanced, there would be no reason for choosing a race over another option except concept, & doing so does not punish the player for that concept - allowing anyone who wants to play that type of character to do so without hindrance.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Why is the Oni a punishing cost compared to any other 'cost' in character creation? Because it can be a la carted on the cheap if someone is willing to dedicate their qualities to emulating the metatype?

Yes.

If it had been properly balanced, there would be no reason for choosing a race over another option except concept, & doing so does not punish the player for that concept - allowing anyone who wants to play that type of character to do so without hindrance.

To qualify that: there are always going to be certain combinations that are worse than others in particular instances -- a Troll Ghoul is probably not gonna be your go-to man for a face. However, there should never be an instance where any given race is "strictly better" -- that is, equal or better in every single category, and worse in none -- than another, because that means that someone who wants to play the inferior race automatically starts at a clear disadvantage compared to another player who chooses the better race.

[Dhaise]

Because numerous other options give equal or greater benefits for lesser cost. Because of this, the characters abilities are noticeably reduced (if not greatly), simply because the player wanted a particular concept - a trade off that many people will not make. If it had been properly balanced, there would be no reason for choosing a race over another option except concept, & doing so does not punish the player for that concept - allowing anyone who wants to play that type of character to do so without hindrance.

Even with the overhaul though, Shadowrun has never been based around a strictly concept generation, everyone pays for what they want and it means it closes options other characters still have open. Under the priority system all metatypes paid more then humans (who also got a lot less ) and some paid more then others, the elven physad wouldn't be able to afford the kickbutt weapon foci the human adept could. I don't think there was ever 'balance' in SR character creation when it comes to comparing two different characters and I don't think the argument for the runner's companion even has balance with other characters as a consideration. The book features a metatype that gets a full set of extra functional arms with no drawbacks except fluff, and the advantages cannot be purchased by other characters trying to spend the same amount of other resources to accumulate the traits. It's the wrong book for balance in my eyes, it's the right book for 'Im willing to spend X play Y'- if those numbers are out of whack and you don't want to say 'no', adjust the cost freely. I personally wouldn't use much of RC myself, and my players don't argue about costs now anymore then they did in sr1. YMMY of course, but paying for fluff advantages or drawbacks does work for my campaigns players,because we use the fluff. The only 'fairness' I get concerned about is that everyone starts with identical options as everybody else to create their characters (I know some gms who bend rules or provide options to some players,but not others; or ban specific books/combos for certain players).


Under the BP system,our faux Oni now doesn't get +/-35 BPs to blow on tweaking his character, he's spent them posing as an Oni, whereas Real Oni who paid for the metatype still has some wiggle room despite paying a different cost. That seems fair enough in the scheme of things.

[Muspellsheimr]

I don't think there was ever 'balance' in SR character creation when it comes to comparing two different characters and I don't think the argument for the runner's companion even has balance with other characters as a consideration.

Part of the problem.

It's the wrong book for balance in my eyes,

Precisely the issue I am addressing.

Under the BP system,our faux Oni now doesn't get +/-35 BPs to blow on tweaking his character, he's spent them posing as an Oni, whereas Real Oni who paid for the metatype still has some wiggle room despite paying a different cost. That seems fair enough in the scheme of things.

It has never been about a 'faux' vs. 'real' Oni - it has always been about Oni vs. Ork vs. Ogre vs. anything else with comparable racial features.

Under RAW, the only reason you would ever play an Oni over an Ork is for concept, and you are being punished for doing so by 10 BP. The only reason you would ever play an Ork over an Ogre is for concept, & you are being punished for doing so by 5BP.

As a player, I should be able to play what I want without being forced to create an inferior character because of it. If you want to play an inferior character, fine, do so. Automatically including such with various concept options is at best poor design.

[Dhaise]

Part of the problem.

Precisely the issue I am addressing.

It has never been about a 'faux' vs. 'real' Oni - it has always been about Oni vs. Ork vs. Ogre vs. anything else with comparable racial features.

Under RAW, the only reason you would ever play an Oni over an Ork is for concept, and you are being punished for doing so by 10 BP. The only reason you would ever play an Ork over an Ogre is for concept, & you are being punished for doing so by 5BP.

As a player, I should be able to play what I want without being forced to create an inferior character because of it. If you want to play an inferior character, fine, do so. Automatically including such with various concept options is at best poor design.

For me though, Concept is enough to select a metatype without missing what I'm giving up. If I really want that Dryad, I'll make it and suffer with 'less points'. As a player I appreciate that I can have choices that matter, without having the same 3 starting feats as every other first level human fighter and the same skill bonuses as every other character going to the same core skills. My 'stuff' spent on meta limits my wealth, my magic,my skills and my attributes- maybe I should just play a reg elf and flavor them dryad like? Nah,I want the dryad, I'll skimp somewhere on a charisma skill and/or start it off broke.
I have yet to see a starting character from an experienced player that 10bps ruined a concept for. Tightening the belt elsewhere can focus and make up for it. why should you have to pay more for your choice? Because thats what the option costs, and the player selected that option. In a tight, rp heavy game in the middle of japan, most of the new nonhumans just paid out their butts to be outcasts- in the same number crunching stripped of RP combat sim, the oni is less optimal in less important areas but has a bonus in combat then some other race that's not fair, but it's life. EDIT: I don't think most of the options are balanced in the core rules either..some are too good for their point value for certain characters, and others are too punishing to be considered for my 'typical players'. Having a sensitive system as a mage isn't nearly the handicap it is for street sams. And when you're looking at a character as somebody born with certain assests and drawbacks and not as a spreadsheet of balanced positive and negative qualities, shouldn't there be just as many simesense vertigo people with aptitudes for hacking as there are mages with the issue? I find the fact that there isn't more 'suboptimal' featured in NPCS,PCS and scenarios even more retarded then losing thousands of nuyen because I have tusks and live about half as long,it pretty much boils down to everybody's preferences on playstyle and expectations of fun in their math. I don't find math riddles fun,I find them a neccesary evil.
I'm not baiting you, I'm just at a different side of the argument "If I'm the idiot who wants to spend X on a drake (for example), is it anybody else's fault but mine that he can't do certain things the human character can right out of the box? Was he ripped off?". A lot of the time, I stick to concept regardless of the cost; if I want a Troll face, I'm going to make one despite him hitting some pretty rude caps really early on- giving that character a short game life for advancement,or his lifespan ends,or blahblah. And I don't think any amount of point based system really makes it 'fair' for one starting character to regenerate and fly while no other character shares that ability. I stick mostly to vanilla metatypes, because the draw of any of the metas don't interest me. I can make an african elf without him being a waykambi. I just don't honestly see how any point build costs can be considered 'fair' for all flavors of games. Given the old decker stigma, I used to offer extra perks to players willing to be deckers, they still didn't race to line up. Ditto riggers. If a metatype charges people more, and it still gets people lining up to play them ,(despite rarity and all that justification stuff), it doesn't seem like a ripoff, it sounds like someone willing to trade about one die somewhere for the 'ah cool' factor. If people want to play some overpriced metavariant even though they could get away with cherry picking the advantages and saving some points, i'd welcome them to my game because it's what I like to see, personality over points. Im ok with rarity being a cost quantified with starting resources because if all things were equal, you'd probably never see a human runner again, which most definately isn't supported by the typical game world,even with the higher propensity of the weirdos drawn to the shadows stuff.
Has anyone ever raked over those meta costs completely in RC and tried adjusting them with any real success in a long running game? Did it produce any outside the norm trends in your players? Encourage/Discourage roleplaying or min/maxing? I've used them almost entirely 'by the book' and my players don't have any interest in them aside from the occasional drake,banshee or night one. I've been toying around with returning to the old priority system, but my players do seem to enjoy the micromanaging and point agonizing of Sr4's CC rules.

[Larme]

What I want is a game that does not punish a player for playing what they would like to play. Shadowrun has a good foundational system. It has a good setting. Most importantly, I can change the rules where needed, which is why I play it. However, I should not need to change the rules to obtain a balanced game. House rules to fit a particular play style are fine. House rules to avoid gross balance issues in the system are not, & I have a ~20 page pamphlet for exactly that; some are currently experimental, but most are not.

The Oni is a 10BP discrepancy, not 5. It is one of the most minor balance issues in Runners Companion, & even SR4, but it is one of the most blatantly obvious, & the topic of this thread. Which is why I am discussing it. Finally, I would also like to point out that the Oni is cheaper than it should be; the Ork cost is off by 15BP.

Hey look, you CAN express your opinion without using inflammatory language. You don't have to call things retarded, or use the word fuck, to get your point across. All that does is reduce the chance that people will respond rationally, and increase the chance of a flame war. If you don't want a flame war, for god's sake don't act like you do.

As for punishing the player, again, let's put this in perspective. 5 points. That's a very small pile of points. You get a neat appearance. To some people that's not a punishment, that's a cool thing to have, and it's worth 5 points to them. It's not worth it to you. But you can't blame the system because you value cosmetics differently than others. You think being rare and exotic is worth 0, but that doesn't set the value. You need to realize that your assertion, that the system punishes people who play an Oni, is not an absolute fact. It's an opinion based on your own personal preferences. You have no authority to declare whether a cosmetic change is worth points, and you have no standing to criticize those who think that looking like an oni is something of value.

As for the assertion that the entire game is unabalanced: again, that's your opinion, not an absolute fact. Points costs are arbitrary. I am positive that your changes to the rules are, in the end, every bit as arbitrary as the original points costs. You simply prefer them more. Once again, you are attacking the developers for writing Shadowrun by Catalyst Game Labs, and not Shadowrun by Muspellsheimr. Which is a bit crazy, because they don't work for you, or with you, nor can they anticipate your preferences, nor should they. You seem to have very particular preferences, to such an extent that you make a big deal out of a 5 point optional race that doesn't really affect game balance in any significant way. You have got to be kidding me if you think there's such an RPG that could meet your exact preferences, if you're going to be this precise. You're holding the devs to an impossible standard, so you'll forgive me if I don't accept it as a valid criticism of the game.

[The Mack]

As for punishing the player, again, let's put this in perspective. 5 points. That's a very small pile of points. You get a neat appearance. To some people that's not a punishment, that's a cool thing to have, and it's worth 5 points to them. It's not worth it to you. But you can't blame the system because you value cosmetics differently than others. You think being rare and exotic is worth 0, but that doesn't set the value.

Actually I would disagree with this, as the system itself values "striking skin pigmentation" as a negative quality.

Now you're right in that there surely are players that want their character to be "rare and exotic" as you put it, and would be willing to pay for that in points.


That doesn't change the fact that the system itself sees it as a negative quality, that should provide extra build points for saddling yourself with.

And while it may never be a consideration in some games, having increased "...chances of being noticed, recognized, or encountering prejudice." can be a big hinderance in others.


So which ever way it's argued, someone playing an Oni is out an effective 10 BP vs. an Ork with Striking Skin pigmentation.


Now I don't think it's something to really get wildly upset over, but the pricing for the various metatypes (base metatypes included) do come off as quite arbitrary.

[BullZeye]

Oni costs 25 and they get 3 body and 2 strength... Elf costs 30 and get 2 charisma and 1 agility. Yes, orcs get lower max values to few other attributes but seriously, how many have made an orc with maxed out charisma or logic? Let's not even bring trolls to the comparison, as then the numbers would be way off, right?

If it bothers so greatly that Oni costs 25 and orc only 20 and the difference is that terrible 10bp if you count the stats + qualities they get together, then how about not play an Oni. I've heard of some crazy people who buy an Audi even though VW is the same car but lot cheaper (or some even crazier go for Seat or Skoda to get even cheaper but still basically same) just because it's a freakin AUDI. If you go change the logo on the hood, it still doesn't make your VW an Audi, but appears to be for those who know little about cars. Just as you might pass as an Oni to some by taking orc + skin pigment, but you still aren't an Oni.

Style over substance, anyone?

[Larme]

Now I don't think it's something to really get wildly upset over, but the pricing for the various metatypes (base metatypes included) do come off as quite arbitrary.

Exactly. It's incredibly arbitrary. The entire points system is nothing but an arbitrary set of numbers. Onis cost 5 because the devs felt like making them terrible and also cost more points. You can disagree with their decision, but it's not a wrong decision. There is no such thing as a right or wrong decision in such an arbitrary system. The right value is the value that you like, the wrong value is the value that you don't like. And people here seem to be complaining that the devs did something that they don't like. You can explain all the reasons why you don't like it, you can have valid reasons not to like it, but that will never in a million years convert anyone's likes or dislikes into absolute rights and wrongs. I'd appreciate if the SR4 detractors could realize that, that their problems are ones of preference and not Absolute Truth that we have to agree with or we're stupid.

*Not talking specifically to The Mack in most of this post, just SR4 detractors in general.

[suppenhuhn]

There is no such thing as a right or wrong decision in such an arbitrary system.

Uh, no?
Why have a character generation system to begin with if you then deduct arbitrary amounts of BP for different selections?
Might as well roll for point costs or starting BP.

[DireRadiant]

Anyone not playing the One True SR4A Way is wrong.

For only $5000, you get a spiffy set of colorful books, a 4 day weekend session in an exotic location, and a lifetime of fun playing SR4A the One True SR4A Way.

Cash or Credit only.

If you are familiar with the One True SR4A Way you know how to reach me.

[DireRadiant]

I like it. You don't like it. You like it. I don't like it. It could this, It could be that. Is that right? Is this right? Is this wrong? Is that wrong?

This, That, you must choose one. You can only write one word. Choose the word. Is it this or that?

This or That, you will be wrong.

This or That, you will be right.

[paws2sky]

Lay some more of those mellow words on me, daddy-o. *snaps fingers*

-paws

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Under the BP system,our faux Oni now doesn't get +/-35 BPs to blow on tweaking his character

...He gets 30 and 10 points' worth of changeling stuff.

[Larme]

Uh, no?
Why have a character generation system to begin with if you then deduct arbitrary amounts of BP for different selections?
Might as well roll for point costs or starting BP.

Arbitrary, in the sense that I'm using it, means that it's entirely up to the devs' discretion, there are no hard and fast rules telling them what to do. Rolling dice isn't arbitrary, it's random. Arbitrary decisions can still be dictated by rational thought. Onis cost 5 points, in other words, because the devs thought that being rare, unique, different, and/or funny looking had a slight value. You can disagree with that decision, but you can't prove it to be wrong, because it is arbitrary. Until someone comes up with a mathematical system that explains the "right" number of points in every situation, I won't accept anyone telling me that something has the "wrong" points cost, as opposed a points cost they would prefer to see changed.

I have my own opinions about the game too, I think that certain options are undercosted, or overpowered, or whatever. But I recognize that this isn't a problem with Shadowrun, it's a problem with my own personal preferences being unique to me. Nobody could create a game that satisfied all of my own personal preferences unless they were actually writing it for me alone, with my input, so I won't object if this game doesn't. What SR4 detractors seem to have in common is that they have some very picky personal preferences, so to them, the game's flaws are many indeed. But this is a question of degree, not nature. It's still opinion, it's still relative, and any "fix" you create (or feel "forced" to create) is just as arbitrary as the original rules as written.

[deek]

And luckily every game has a GM. So, as a player, regardless whether you feel right or wrong or think game developers are right or wrong, really doesn't matter when you are playing at the GMs table.

I'd be a more happy forum-goer if the SR4 detractors focused their right/wrong debates on their GMs. Now I'd be happy to read about how "your table" does one thing or another, changed a BP cost here or added a house rule there. But a line is crossed when anyone starts telling anyone else what's right or wrong. In fact, I'd care less if a game developer told me what was right or wrong in my game...

[DireRadiant]

Anyone not playing the One True SR4A Way is a bad bad person.

Do not confuse the 1 Tru SR4 Weigh with the One True SR4A Way. It may seem to be as much, nay, even more fun then the One True Sr4A Way, but that is merely an Illusion, you must have fun the way I do it, the way I enjoy it the most, for my way is the best, nay my way is the only way that you can have fun, because I know all, feel all, and know best.

See previous posts for information on learning the One True SR4A Way and learn to have fun in the right and proper way.

[Larme]

And luckily every game has a GM. So, as a player, regardless whether you feel right or wrong or think game developers are right or wrong, really doesn't matter when you are playing at the GMs table.

I'd be a more happy forum-goer if the SR4 detractors focused their right/wrong debates on their GMs. Now I'd be happy to read about how "your table" does one thing or another, changed a BP cost here or added a house rule there. But a line is crossed when anyone starts telling anyone else what's right or wrong. In fact, I'd care less if a game developer told me what was right or wrong in my game...

The problem is, they think that needing house rules in the first place somehow makes the game bad. They want a game where no house rules are necessary, because it already satisfies their preferences 100%, right out of the shrink wrap. But instead of going on a quest for that mythical game, they keep playing this one, making our experience on this forum oh so wonderful with their positive, constructive comments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[deek]

I wonder if gamers are as particular with instruction manuals?

I mean, I've rarely put together any piece of furniture, kid's toy or model that didn't have at least one piece, instruction or diagram that wasn't a little vague. A few have just been outright wrong. And on at least one occasion, where everything was clear and correct, I preferred to assemble it a little differently, aka MyWay^TM.

When you think about it, that's all a rulebook and even setting are...instructions to assist a GM and players to have fun and play a game...

[suppenhuhn]

Arbitrary decisions can still be dictated by rational thought. Onis cost 5 points, in other words, because the devs thought that being rare, unique, different, and/or funny looking had a slight value.

Oh really?

Blandness
Cost: 10 BP
This character blends into any crowd. He is average in height, weight, and appearance, and has a distinct lack of distinguishing physical characteristics or mannerisms.


Human-Looking
Cost: 5 BP
A metahuman character with the Human-Looking quality can “pass� for human in most circumstances.

Distinctive Style
Bonus: 5 to 35 BP
A character that takes this negative quality possesses at least one distinctive physical feature or unique mannerism (note that what qualifies as a Distinctive Style may vary from group to group; see the What is a Distinctive Style? Sidebar, p. 104). The quality may represent a unique look, a peculiar fashion sense, a trans- or non-metahuman modification, a unique speech pattern—anything that makes the character inconveniently attention-grabbing and memorable.

Notice a tendency here?
You are right that you will never please everyone with a certain point cost or whatever but rules should nonetheless be consistent.

As to making some species more or less rare by adjusting the point cost:
Do you really believe that whether or not a race is present in a certain group of shadowrunners does have any impact on, or is in any way related to, how rare or common they are in the game world?
The only thing you achieve by this is that a race you wanted to make rarer is less competent.

[BullZeye]

Notice a tendency here?

Actually, yes. If you want to make Oni, you gotta pick that race unless you want to stick out. Yes, they are different than other orks, but they look alike any other Oni. So if you want to have a colored and weird face without being distinct, you have to pick Oni instead of making a freak out of some other race. Hence, the race's points are quite balanced, aren't they? Perhaps Oni's have that 5BP as "Oni looking - quality. You pass as one of them and get all the prejudice they deserve." And not having a distinct style negative quality from having a weird skin counts for some points, too. So all in all, 25 sounds about right...

and...

That 5BP vs normal orc sure is going to make all those Onis totally incompetant and game breaking.

Oni boast bright red, blue, or orange skin colors,
slightly protuberant eyes, enlarged pointed ears, curving horns,
and the large builds associated with the robustus metatype. Aside
from making them highly visible, these traits are also seen as
naturally intimidating by many of those who come into contact
with them, especially among the Japanese, who actively avoid their
company—which in turn has led to widespread social and work-
place segregation in Japan. Portrayed as treacherous and hostile in
Japanese folklore and modern media until very recently, oni have
had to endure decades of ostracism and even exile quarantined on
the island of Yomi.

If the GM thinks it's just yet another orc with weird skin and such, then it's that GM's problem to not figure out the difference. I still think it's quite easy solution to this: If you don't like paying that extra 5bp for all that fluff, then don't? Play an orc and buy it all those negative qualities to make it look somewhat alike but if a real Oni catches you... have a docwagon ready.

A question to those who see this as such a big deal: Why is it such a big deal if some metatype is according to your opinion so way off balance? Did an Oni piss in your cheerios and now you want to pay back by playing one? For someone who would pick a metatype for RP reasons wouldn't go bitching about 5bp worth of payment to get to play just what one wants.

[suppenhuhn]

So, why not pay BP for hair colour? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
I mean after all if you want to play a blonde you might as well pay 10 BP for it right?

[Larme]

Oh really?

Blandness
Cost: 10 BP
This character blends into any crowd. He is average in height, weight, and appearance, and has a distinct lack of distinguishing physical characteristics or mannerisms.


Human-Looking
Cost: 5 BP
A metahuman character with the Human-Looking quality can “pass� for human in most circumstances.

Distinctive Style
Bonus: 5 to 35 BP
A character that takes this negative quality possesses at least one distinctive physical feature or unique mannerism (note that what qualifies as a Distinctive Style may vary from group to group; see the What is a Distinctive Style? Sidebar, p. 104). The quality may represent a unique look, a peculiar fashion sense, a trans- or non-metahuman modification, a unique speech pattern—anything that makes the character inconveniently attention-grabbing and memorable.

Notice a tendency here?
You are right that you will never please everyone with a certain point cost or whatever but rules should nonetheless be consistent.

Umm, not really? Unless you're pointing to how distinctive style is a flaw, but Oni effectively pay points for it?

Regardless, your point is not a rebuttal to mine. You're right that being consistent is a good thing. But it doesn't logically follow that inconsistency is always bad in all situations. There are too many variables in a game like Shadowrun to make a simple equivalency like this. In this case, the developers thought that the rarity of Oni should be represented by a points increase, even though that makes them pay points for a flaw. And if that's what they were going for, it works doesn't it? No way in hell are we going to see gaming tables overrun by Oni, now are we? This could very well be a "feature, not a flaw" thing. You might disagree with it, but that doesn't make it a mistake.

As to making some species more or less rare by adjusting the point cost:
Do you really believe that whether or not a race is present in a certain group of shadowrunners does have any impact on, or is in any way related to, how rare or common they are in the game world?
The only thing you achieve by this is that a race you wanted to make rarer is less competent.

Yes, I believe it's related in some way. If you have a random team of runners, with no common background, it would be rare beyond belief for all of them to be Oni. And the fact that Oni pay points for no benefit means that this will indeed be rare. In the same vein, the vast expense of free spirits and AIs partly represents how rare they are, because they're not very good and cost a ton of points. And this too has its intended effect, because you're never going to get entire teams of these train wrecks without some kind of relevant story behind it.

The point is, if a race is supposed to be ultra rare, you'd expect not to find it as part of any given team. Statistics still apply, even when there's a sample size of one. By ensuring that they are not common at a given gaming table, the rules do ensure some degree of internal consistency with the fluff.

As for making them less competent, that's actually a good point. That's how the BP system works. If you want to be an Oni, or an AI, or a Free Spirit, or a Drake, you have to start out worse than anyone else. And part of that is because you pay points for being cool. If you can come up with some other way to buy coolness, you're welcome to use that, but BP is the system already in place. The great thing about SR4 is how they've created this modular, streamlined system that uses only one mechanic for each thing. Of course, sometimes you get things that don't quite fit. That's the price we pay for SR4's streamlined system. I'll take not quite fitting any day over SR3's rules-spread-across-four-books, different-mechanic-for-everything-for-no-reason craziness. Now, there's a good reason for AI's and Free Spirits to start of kinda sucky, because they have more potential for advancement than almost anyone and thus need to start lower for game balance. That doesn't apply to Oni, of course. But seriously, 5 points is less competent? You show me a build that is significantly worse after losing 5 points and I'll eat my hat.

[DireRadiant]

I like to play cards with a 50 card deck. These 52 deck cards are horrible at being divided by 5 or 10 evenly for the people I play with. Whoever designed this 52 card deck sucks. Petition the card company and devs to make 50 card decks! I'm tired of tossing out those extra two cards!

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Can someone just shut this guy up?

[DireRadiant]

My arguments are as valid as anyone else's, though they are abstracted.

Or am I not allowed to argue because I have a different opinion?

[tsuyoshikentsu]

You are. You're not. You're trolling.

Make coherent arguments and address points that have been brought up, or be quiet. You're not adding anything here.

[Lordmalachdrim]

You are. You're not. You're trolling.

Make coherent arguments and address points that have been brought up, or be quiet. You're not adding anything here.

His posts just take a little thought to understand, but are really good and sum up my thoughts of every thread in this vein on Dumpshock. (and many other gaming forums)

[eidolon]

Guys, keep it civil. I don't see anything terribly out of line, here. If you don't like what a person is posting, ignore them, but nobody seems to be breaking any rules here so far.

[suppenhuhn]

Umm, not really? Unless you're pointing to how distinctive style is a flaw, but Oni effectively pay points for it?

I pointed out that your view of being unique as an advantage was apparently the opposite of what the authors of the qualities had in mind.

Regardless, your point is not a rebuttal to mine. You're right that being consistent is a good thing. But it doesn't logically follow that inconsistency is always bad in all situations. There are too many variables in a game like Shadowrun to make a simple equivalency like this.

Er what variables?
Having red skin and being from Japan is good whereas having red skin and being from America is bad?
Being an outcast in your own society somehow is an advantage?
Ya that makes sense and doesn't seem to be random at all.

In this case, the developers thought that the rarity of Oni should be represented by a points increase, even though that makes them pay points for a flaw. And if that's what they were going for, it works doesn't it?

In fact it doesn't. If you want to make an Oni you simply make one. He'll have less points to distribute then an Orc though, for no reason I may add.

Yes, I believe it's related in some way. If you have a random team of runners, with no common background, it would be rare beyond belief for all of them to be Oni.

Yes would be extremely unrealistic. That's why you never see minorities networking or hanging out together. The average bowling team always consists of 3 whites, a black, an asian and an indian, half of which are female.

The point is, if a race is supposed to be ultra rare, you'd expect not to find it as part of any given team. Statistics still apply, even when there's a sample size of one. By ensuring that they are not common at a given gaming table, the rules do ensure some degree of internal consistency with the fluff.

By that approach every npc in the game must be a shadow runner and there are like 20% mundanes.

As for making them less competent, that's actually a good point. That's how the BP system works. If you want to be an Oni, or an AI, or a Free Spirit, or a Drake, you have to start out worse than anyone else.

Imo at least the Spirit is well worth the cost right out of 400BP chargen.

And part of that is because you pay points for being cool. If you can come up with some other way to buy coolness, you're welcome to use that, but BP is the system already in place.

Coolness is about the worst thing you can put a point cost on because what is cool and what isn't is so dependant on ones personal opinion.
Prime examples are elves and vampires. Some people think they are really cool, others that they are extremely gay.

The great thing about SR4 is how they've created this modular, streamlined system that uses only one mechanic for each thing. Of course, sometimes you get things that don't quite fit. That's the price we pay for SR4's streamlined system. I'll take not quite fitting any day over SR3's rules-spread-across-four-books, different-mechanic-for-everything-for-no-reason craziness.

Thank you i already bought a copy, so no need for advertisements.

But seriously, 5 points is less competent? You show me a build that is significantly worse after losing 5 points and I'll eat my hat.

I said less competent, not crippled.
Deduct 5 BP from any build and it will be worse in some way then the build you started out with.

[The Mack]

I pointed out that your view of being unique as an advantage was apparently the opposite of what the authors of the qualities had in mind.

Just to back that up a little:

While rules for playing such exotic character types (and metavariants) are introduced in the advanced core book Runners’ Companion, such characters are notably exotic, rare, and otherwise remarkable compared to normal metahumans (few of which are good survival traits in the dangerous world of the shadows).

Emphasis mine.

The same sidebar also talks about why their are uncommon concentrations of metahumans vs. humans working the shadows compared to more normal walks of life.

[Larme]

I pointed out that your view of being unique as an advantage was apparently the opposite of what the authors of the qualities had in mind.

My view was never that being unique is an advantage. I said that some players would value it, even though it's actually bad. It might make you stick out more, it might make you easier to find, but it also makes you more interesting and more cool. Value is not the same as advantage. Lots of things have value that confer no advantages, like toilet seats made of gold. The devs intended Oni to be like that -- worth a small number of points for being interesting and different, even though system wise that is not a good thing.

Er what variables?
Having red skin and being from Japan is good whereas having red skin and being from America is bad?
Being an outcast in your own society somehow is an advantage?
Ya that makes sense and doesn't seem to be random at all.

Again, being an Oni has value to some people, or to the devs at least. You get to look like a cool demon from Japanese legend. I don't know. Your point is, you disagree with this, and call it wrong. That's non sequitur. The only thing that follows from the fact that you don't think being an Oni has value is that you don't think being an Oni has value. It does not follow that this value is nonexistent.

As for the red skin, Oni have more than just red skin. Being a normal meta with weird skin makes you a SURGEd freak. Being an Oni makes you unusual, but you have a distinctive look that means people know you're part of a meta subtype, and not a mutant. It's a different set of traits, and therefore a different value.

In fact it doesn't. If you want to make an Oni you simply make one. He'll have less points to distribute then an Orc though, for no reason I may add.

My ass it doesn't! Almost everyone here is thinking, "Man, Oni suck so much, I'd have to be drunk to make one." And like maybe one person is like "I ignore BP and just focus on concept, so I might make an Oni." I think that very well accomplishes the objective of making them rare. I can't believe you're seriously contending that making something shitty has no effect on whether anyone wants to use it.

Yes would be extremely unrealistic. That's why you never see minorities networking or hanging out together. The average bowling team always consists of 3 whites, a black, an asian and an indian, half of which are female.

You're ignoring relevant parts of my post to prove your point, namely the part where I said it would be unrealistic to have a team of Oni with no back story. If they were friends already, and happened to meet up and form a team, then it would make sense. If they went to a bar that was the one place in Seattle where Oni were a common sight and met each other, that would make sense. If a J just called for four random runners, and they all just so happened to be Oni? That would be almost impossible.

By that approach every npc in the game must be a shadow runner and there are like 20% mundanes.

The incidence of mages in runner teams is higher than their incidence in the population. The same might be true for Oni, too. But the percentage of Oni is much much much smaller than the percentage of mages. So even if there were more Oni in shadowrun teams than in the population, there would still be much fewer Oni than mages. And the rules are likely to accomplish that.

Imo at least the Spirit is well worth the cost right out of 400BP chargen.


Coolness is about the worst thing you can put a point cost on because what is cool and what isn't is so dependant on ones personal opinion.
Prime examples are elves and vampires. Some people think they are really cool, others that they are extremely gay.

Ah hah! And now you've just conceded away your whole argument. It's based on your own opinion. Spirits are worth the points in your opinion. Where I see something with a huge premium on coolness and uniqueness, you see value. You dislike putting points on coolness, because you believe that it's too subjective. That's all your own preferences. You're not showing my why the game is wrong, you're showing me why you don't like it. And hey, if you could just step back and say "you're right, this isn't about the game being wrong, it's about me disagreeing with it personally," this argument would be over. You are entitled to your own opinion, I might even agree with you somewhat. All you have to do is recognize that your preferences are yours, they are not absolute truths, and they are not binding on other people. Other people, including the devs, can disagree. And this does not make them wrong, it just makes them people who value things differently than you.

I said less competent, not crippled.
Deduct 5 BP from any build and it will be worse in some way then the build you started out with.

And I'm saying that "less competent" is an overstatement. Worse in some way? Fine. Worse in some way that matters? Nope.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Basically, it all boils down to persona Style...
In my opinion, Shadowrun (like Cyberpunk) is Style over Substance...

And yes... 5 BP less does not hurt a character in any significant way that matters...

[suppenhuhn]

Ah hah! And now you've just conceded away your whole argument. It's based on your own opinion. Spirits are worth the points in your opinion. Where I see something with a huge premium on coolness and uniqueness, you see value. You dislike putting points on coolness, because you believe that it's too subjective. That's all your own preferences. You're not showing my why the game is wrong, you're showing me why you don't like it. And hey, if you could just step back and say "you're right, this isn't about the game being wrong, it's about me disagreeing with it personally," this argument would be over. You are entitled to your own opinion, I might even agree with you somewhat. All you have to do is recognize that your preferences are yours, they are not absolute truths, and they are not binding on other people. Other people, including the devs, can disagree. And this does not make them wrong, it just makes them people who value things differently than you.

Huh?
I said spirits are worth those 250 points in my opinion which has nothing to do with coolness or whatever but with being able to teleport, materialize/possess and being almost immortal. You know the kind of things that actually have an in game effect.
If you think they are worth less then that's your opinion which you are entitled to but that they have unique abilities is undisputed.

And if you would take the time to read what the "sr4 detractors" as you so eloquently put it actually wrote you might start to notice that we're the ones that want personal preferences out of the rules.
You want people to pay more or less for something that you believe is cool/extraordinary/whatever and by doing that you force your opinion onto people and that is wrong.
We want people to pay only for something they actually and objectively get like farting bullets and somesuch.

Oh and let me answer your funny assertion that coolness is not subjective with two words: Boy bands.

[Larme]

Huh?
I said spirits are worth those 250 points in my opinion which has nothing to do with coolness or whatever but with being able to teleport, materialize/possess and being almost immortal. You know the kind of things that actually have an in game effect.
If you think they are worth less then that's your opinion which you are entitled to but that they have unique abilities is undisputed.

Right. You think they are worth every point. I think that they're not because they start out with next to nothing in skills and attributes. I think they pay a large premium for being rare, unique, different, cool, you name it. This is a disagreement based on opinion, not hard fact. I defy you to quantify the BP system in a meaningful way -- it cannot be done because it is arbitrary, based on a developer's assessment of value, which doesn't necessarily line up with yours.

You want people to pay more or less for something that you believe is cool/extraordinary/whatever and by doing that you force your opinion onto people and that is wrong.

What am I forcing on who now? The devs wrote the rules. They're the ones using their own opinions to write them. I wouldn't call it forcing their opinions on them, you bought it voluntarily. If you're unhappy, you can use your own opinions, and change the rules. No game is perfect, and if you're going to sweat the small stuff, you're not going to need house rules. The way I handle it is I take everything in stride, and only make a house rule if it's extremely important to me.

We want people to pay only for something they actually and objectively get like farting bullets and somesuch.

Oh and let me answer your funny assertion that coolness is not subjective with two words: Boy bands.

Um, I didn't say that coolness is not subjective. I said that you're right, it's absolutely suggestive. You don't think that Onis are cool enough to cost 5 points. Evidently, others, including the devs, do think that. That's the basis of this argument. Not an objective measure, but someone's subjective assessment of coolness. You think that their coolness is worth 0, the devs think it's worth 5. You have no basis to contest that as objectively wrong, because it has an subjective, not objective basis. You can disagree about whether anything should be based on a subjective concept like that, but that too is a subjective argument. Some people, like me, don't care if the devs use subjective standards. The fact is, the game is too complicated for everything to be based on objective standards. You simply can't make an RPG that's "objective," it would require some insanely complicated math that would probably end up with a crappy game anyway. The fact is, the very question of the right way to make an RPG is open to debate, and not capable of objective determination.

To make myself absolutely clear: I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're neither right nor wrong. Build Point costs are largely arbitrary, and the "right" value for them is entirely subjective. You're just as right as the devs are. All I want is for you to stop pretending that there's some sort of absolute truth out there when it comes to BP costs, and only you know how to find it.

Also, your "answer" does not make sense to me. It sort of sounds like an attempted insult, but honestly I just have no idea what you mean. Wait, scratch that. My eyes are a little bleary, I thought you wrote "boy hands." Now I get you, after reading the actual word. But it doesn't matter, you're absolutely right that coolness is subjective, and I never tried to contest that.

[Draco18s]

I think they pay a large premium for being rare, unique, different, cool, you name it.

Not to mention the 150+ BP worth of unique positive qualities...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think it is worth the 5 points to play an Oni...

*Shrugs*

[Jhaiisiin]

Seriously, you guys are going in circles. For those who think Oni are overpriced, you're right. Awhile back I attempted to quantify the precise objective BP cost of each race, purely based on the varied bonuses and negatives a race would have. Orks came out to 45, Oni to 35.

Edit: Apparently I'm still linking to the old forum topic in my sig. It's outdated. I'm posting a current .doc file of the breakdown to my SR page so people can see the numbers breakdown.

Edit2: Link now points to the file in question. Yay.

[Mäx]

Seriously, you guys are going in circles. For those who think Oni are overpriced, you're right. Awhile back I attempted to quantify the precise objective BP cost of each race, purely based on the varied bonuses and negatives a race would have. Orks came out to 45, Oni to 35.

And know we get to the biggest reason why rarenes is a factor in racial cost of metavariants, that being that no metavariant should be cheaper then their parent metatype.

[Muspellsheimr]

Seriously, you guys are going in circles. For those who think Oni are overpriced, you're right. Awhile back I attempted to quantify the precise objective BP cost of each race, purely based on the varied bonuses and negatives a race would have. Orks came out to 45, Oni to 35.

I successfully have done so, for all metatypes/varients, & infected (I have simply not bothered with the other races yet, as it has not come up in my game - SI/FS are not allowed, yet, because I have not done the rules rewrite they desperately need). I have posted it on the forums on multiple occasions. Orks are 35 BP, Oni are 30.

And know we get to the biggest reason why rarenes is a factor in racial cost of metavariants, that being that no metavariant should be cheaper then their parent metatype.

Bullshit. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to force them to cost equal or greater amounts than their parent type, if their benefits are less &/or drawbacks are greater.

[Mäx]

Bullshit. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to force them to cost equal or greater amounts than their parent type, if their benefits are less &/or drawbacks are greater.

Not doing that causes the extremely silly situation of everyone plying the cheapest metavariant with the most inconsecutial negative qualities.
ie. why would you play orc, when oni is just better in any way, you get all the same bonuses with no real negatives.
So some metavariant would be significantly more common then their parent metatypes and thats just silly.

[Muspellsheimr]

Not doing that causes the extremely silly situation of everyone plying the cheapest metavariant with the most inconsecutial negative qualities.

Failing of said negative qualities, not of the race in question.

ie. why would you play orc, when oni is just better in any way, you get all the same bonuses with no real negatives.

Distinctive Style is not a minor negative - a significant positive modifier for anyone attempting to identify your character or track you based on description makes Oni easily worse than Orks, thus the reason they should have a lower cost.

So some metavariant would be significantly more common then their parent metatypes and thats just silly.

As far as player characters are concerned, not at all. They are by definition outside the norm, & the usual labels of common, rare, unusual, etc. do not apply.

[HappyDaze]

So some metavariant would be significantly more common then their parent metatypes and thats just silly.

If by 'more common' you mean that players are more likely to select them for their characters, that's not really a point since PC groups generally fall well outside of all statistical norms for the setting. Beyond that, some metavariants are more common than their standard metatype among certain ethnic groups. From RC, we find that Oni should be more common than regular Orks among ethnic Japanese. Now if you want to take the next step and assign a rarity (and BP cost) for Japanese ethnicity...

[Mäx]

Distinctive Style is not a minor negative - a significant positive modifier for anyone attempting to identify your character or track you based on description makes Oni easily worse than Orks, thus the reason they should have a lower cost.

How do they cost 30BP if they get distinctive style, shouldn't that make them even cheaper.

If by 'more common' you mean that players are more likely to select them for their characters, that's not really a point since PC groups generally fall well outside of all statistical norms for the setting. .

So your saying that it's perfectly logical for all shadowrunning orcs to be onis.

[The Mack]

How do they cost 30BP if they get distinctive style, shouldn't that make them even cheaper.

Because they cost 25 points base, plus they have an effective "distinctive style" like drawback (Striking Skin Pigmentation = 5 points) that do not get BPs for.

So an effective cost of 30 BPs all things considered.

[Larme]

I successfully have done so, for all metatypes/varients, & infected (I have simply not bothered with the other races yet, as it has not come up in my game - SI/FS are not allowed, yet, because I have not done the rules rewrite they desperately need). I have posted it on the forums on multiple occasions. Orks are 35 BP, Oni are 30.

I'll believe it when I see it. But I've got a hunch that all you've done is make the numbers more consistent. That doesn't make them objectively right, because there's no law out there that says consistent numbers are better than inconsistent. It's just the way you feel about it.

Bullshit. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to force them to cost equal or greater amounts than their parent type, if their benefits are less &/or drawbacks are greater.

You're just proving my point. Absolutely no reason? The other side has no valid arguments? You have the fervor of a religious zealot, that is to say, your arguments are based on faith and opinion, not objective reason. There is no possible conclusion to this debate because there are no right or wrong answers in an arbitrary system like RPG mechanics. There are just answers you like and answers you don't, and that differs from person to person. Calling the answer you like "right" or "better" is meaningless, because it wouldn't be for someone who disagrees with you.

[Phototoxin]

*has only read 1st page*

Real life isn't balanced. If it was it wouldn't be interesting.
The point is that although you may be less powerful than UberMcPowergamer over there you are still playing and possibly RPG-ing which is what its all about at the end of the day.

[The Mack]

I'll believe it when I see it. But I've got a hunch that all you've done is make the numbers more consistent. That doesn't make them objectively right, because there's no law out there that says consistent numbers are better than inconsistent. It's just the way you feel about it.

Really?

You don't think the developers have put in a significant amount of effort to try and make the system as consistent as possible? You don't think a vast majority of players are looking for consistency in the rules of the games they play?

Isn't that a major goal of a functioning system, to implement a high level of consistency?

Otherwise, what's the point?

Just have a random dice roll decide how many BPs individual options cost and save countless man hours working out the technicalities of the system.

What I think actually happened, is that a handful of 5~10 point mistakes were made (and occasionally some larger mistakes).

Not a very big deal all things considered, but definitely has nothing to do with some obscure directive of being purposefully inconsistent to demonstrate that the developers need answer to no one.

[Larme]

You don't think the developers have put in a significant amount of effort to try and make the system as consistent as possible? You don't think a vast majority of players are looking for consistency in the rules of the games they play?

Isn't that a major goal of a functioning system, to implement a high level of consistency?

It's one goal. But people here are saying that it's the only goal. Other considerations might involve diversity, for instance. In the past, the vast majority of people have played elves and humans because they're not ugly like trogs. But now orks and trolls are comparatively less expensive, making more people want to play them. The points incentive balances out a fluff consideration, that people usually prefer not to play ugly characters (not to mention how those characters will be subject to significant in-game racism), and that makes the game more diverse. That's a policy decision you may or may not agree with, but that's the only basis to object to it -- opinion. If you'd rather have a game that focused only on being consistent and didn't take anything else into account, that's fine. But recognize that it's your preference, not some kind of absolute rule. I mean honestly, are you people really suggesting that there is a set of absolute rules to follow when designing chargen? If so, why do you know them, and the devs don't? The fact that they follow a different set of rules and yet they are professional game designers shows that there is more than one school of thought. Reasonable minds can differ. Please stop pretending like you have a direct line to god that gives you all the answers.

I mean honestly, this should be an easy argument for me to win. My only point is "you don't have a monopoly on some kind of absolute objective truth." Are you guys refusing to concede even that much? You are not willing to admit that your opinions are just opinions, and not objective fact with which nobody could disagree? Seriously?

[Veggiesama]

Hey guys! I got a great idea!

House-rule that Oni get the Goring Horns positive quality!

PROBLEM SOLVED.

[Mäx]

You don't think the developers have put in a significant amount of effort to try and make the system as consistent as possible? You don't think a vast majority of players are looking for consistency in the rules of the games they play?

Isn't that a major goal of a functioning system, to implement a high level of consistency?

Otherwise, what's the point?

Just have a random dice roll decide how many BPs individual options cost and save countless man hours working out the technicalities of the system.

What I think actually happened, is that a handful of 5~10 point mistakes were made (and occasionally some larger mistakes).

Not a very big deal all things considered, but definitely has nothing to do with some obscure directive of being purposefully inconsistent to demonstrate that the developers need answer to no one.

Racial costs have never being in any way consistant in the SR4, so why are you demanding it now.

[eidolon]

Not doing that causes the extremely silly situation of everyone plying the cheapest metavariant with the most inconsecutial negative qualities.
ie. why would you play orc, when oni is just better in any way, you get all the same bonuses with no real negatives.

And yet nobody has ever even wanted to play an Oni in my games, and people routinely play the metavariants with the highest BP cost, citing the following reasoning:

[Metavariant]s are totally bad ass! I'm going to play a [metavariant] [runner type]!

[The Mack]

I mean honestly, are you people really suggesting that there is a set of absolute rules to follow when designing chargen? If so, why do you know them, and the devs don't? The fact that they follow a different set of rules ...

Thing is, those of us arguing the BP cost for Oni are arguing based on the rest of the system that's been presented to us by the devlopers.

We're not citing any absolute rule set, were citing the rule set the game is based on.

I mean honestly, this should be an easy argument for me to win. My only point is "you don't have a monopoly on some kind of absolute objective truth." Are you guys refusing to concede even that much? You are not willing to admit that your opinions are just opinions, and not objective fact with which nobody could disagree? Seriously?

Of course not. And that's not what I'm saying even remotely.

It has nothing to do with our opinion, we're going by the rules as they have been laid out in every book in the SR4 system which are generally quite consistent internally - which is what gives threads like this life as the players/customers nitpick and discuss why there is the occasional, random, inconsistent decision.

Racial costs have never being in any way consistant in the SR4, so why are you demanding it now.

I'm not demanding anything.

But to answer why we are discussing it, there was SR4 and now there is SR4A.

Many of the changes that make SR4A what it is, were born from customer feedback (a good deal from Dumpshock I imagine).

The devs are cool enough to interact with us here, follow some of the discussions and even give us feedback.

Hence a major facet of this forum's appeal is a connection to the developers of the game. That should answer your question "why" I think.

[Larme]

It has nothing to do with our opinion, we're going by the rules as they have been laid out in every book in the SR4 system which are generally quite consistent internally - which is what gives threads like this life as the players/customers nitpick and discuss why there is the occasional, random, inconsistent decision.

See, maybe you could give me some citations? I look at the build point system, especially racial costs, and I think "arbitrary." I don't see any real thread of consistency. In fact, the one consistent rule for metavariants is that they cost at least 5 points more than their parent race. So unless you were to rewrite all the metavariant build costs, making Oni cost less than orks would actually be inconsistent with the very limited consistency we already have.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm no longer talking about "good" or "bad." Why do fomori and gnomes get Arcane Arrester for 5 points? Why do Oni and Night Ones get nothing at all for 5 points? There are rational arguments why these costs should be adjusted. But it's not because they're "right" costs or "wrong" costs. It's just because people would prefer to see such an advantage coming at greater cost, because they subjectively believe that all racial costs should incorporate the costs of any edges/flaws the race come with just as if you were buying them from chargen. Obviously, the devs thought that this shouldn't be the case, and I can't really explain why. All I'm saying is that we should start discussing what we like and dislike and stop smacking each other in the face with Truth. If you just prefaced statements with "I dislike this" or "In my opinion, it's far too inconsistent," discussions would be a lot more civil. If people think that you respect their position, then they are willing to have a nice conversation with you. And nobody needs to argue for days and days until they feel like they "won." It's when you come out with an Argument of Absolute Truth that Only Retards Would Disagree With that you start fights. I know this is the internet, but that shouldn't be an excuse for being obnoxious.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thing is, those of us arguing the BP cost for Oni are arguing based on the rest of the system that's been presented to us by the devlopers.

We're not citing any absolute rule set, were citing the rule set the game is based on.

And yet, the rules set presented states that Oni cost 5 points more than an Ork... seems pretty consistent to me...