I was wandering why the Oni costs 5BP more then a regular ork if all it changes from the base are disadvantages ("Striking Skin Pigmentation" and some fluff Prejudice that is on top of the regular prejudice accorded to Orks)



any Ideas?

'cuz you are speschül

I believe that part of the pricing of metatypes (all metatypes) is based on their rarity in SR background, and not solely on mechanical benefits.

Which is the single most defining reason why Runners Companion, in regards to game balance, fails.

The metavariants are deliberately unbalanced in order to make both powergamers and roleplayers happy. The powergamers will be happy because they can say, "Look! For 5 more points to be a Fomorian, you get a metagenetic improvement to Body instead of just dermal armor, and you get the arcane arrestor quality! Kickass!" The roleplayers will be happy because they can say "Look! Oni cost 5 points more despite the fact that they only get additional disadvantages compared to a regular ork, but I'm still playing one! And he's also got the spell knack quality, and none of his dice pools are higher than 5! I'm roleplaying!"

It's quite brilliant, actually.

What Glyph says. Increasing price is a valid method to induce rarity in a points-buy system. SR4 is not a strategy game, and fair pricing has to include stuff like the "coolness" of an option. There is also no perfect sweet spot of balance for anything, as different players have different perceptions.

and the Roleplaying Min/Maxer (like Myself ) is making an Oni with 750 Karma

with a speschül Dance
Medicineman

Actually, it's still retarded. For the same reason that the Druid isn't balanced in D&D.

"Balanced" is over rated. Give me a game to GM where it's less concerned about being mechanically fair to all and more true to the fluff, helping me bring the world to life.

Balance is integral to any game system. If something is too powerful, then more people will gravitate toward it. If something is too weak, then people will shy away. If a game system does one or the other, then a player's options are cut down, which in the long term leads to stagnation. They key is to find a balance.

If I want to play a character crippled in some way (ex. lost a leg in war, or has severe social anxieties), then I should be compensated in some other way (ex. powerful cyber-leg, or a negative quality that grants free BP for other pursuits). If I'm not compensated, then I simply won't cripple myself.

Flaws make for interesting characters, but uncompensated flaws make for lousy gameplay.

In the Oni's case, the "Ohh, I'm new and different" perk would quickly wear thin, and you'd be stuck with a virtual BP penalty. 5 BP is about 10 karma, which is about an adventure behind your companions.

Encouraging rarity by penalizing is a lame idea. They don't do it to mages, and those guys are supposed to be uber-rare. Simply writing "Oni only come from Japan" (or whatever) is more than adequate, because it forces the player to integrate something into their backstory, which leads them on the path to better roleplaying. Why should there be an extra BP penalty involved?

And that is where the line is drawn, really. Some players feel that if they give themselves a disadvantage, that they should somehow be rewarded in another area. While others just like the extra challenge in roleplaying an "crippled" character.

It reminds me of a HERO game I played a couple years back. We were all a special military investigative unit. I built my character to be deaf to normal sound, but had a special power to allow me to hear on radio frequencies. So, when we were on missions, I was fine, cause we communicated over the radio, but for everything else, I couldn't hear and roleplayed that very well. I was quite upset when my GM gave me my hearing back in a later adventure...the whole point for that character was the struggle and giving me a challenge to roleplay... I didn't need nor want compensation...

When the point is to have fun, then balance takes a backseat. When the point is to "win", well, then everything needs to be balanced.

Huh?
Enhanced Sense: Radio Perception, 8 Points
Physical Limitation: Deaf (Frequently,Greatly), -15 Points

Looks pretty much like compensation to me.

The whole point of rules is to balance things. Onis are from Japan, so most likely they have to spend some knowledge skills on English and rarely used japanese stuff. There's no need to make them more expensive as a race.
Runners Companion would have been much better (as in actually useful) if the writers would have taken the effort to balance things. Karma Generation could have been balanced to BP gen with not that much effort but they prefered to pull some numbers out of their ass because it's more convenient.
Same for lifestyle qualities and new races. The fluff might be nice but rules wise the whole book sucks.

Agreed.

My wife wanted to make an Ork with green skin (we've played too much Warhammer) and saw the Hobgoblin metavariant, which seemed to fit the concept, except for the Fangs. It was even vindictive, which she liked.

After thinking about it though, we opted for a Class I Changeling with green skin, a couple metagenetic positive qualities, and poor self control (vindictive). She saved 5 BP doing it that way.

Even my "yay, RP!" / "meh, rules" wife saw it as a bad deal.

-paws

Hmm... 5 extra build points for the rarity of being an oni... vs 20 extra build points for the rarity of being a magician. And they don't do it to mages how?

"Magician" is a little bit more beneficial than oni.

Just

a

little.

I remember back in SR2 that I had a house rule that stated if you use the standard modifiers for what ever race you wanted to play and you were also from the country where the metavariant originates from, then you are that metavariant (ie if you speak Japanese as your main language, your back story puts you in Japan, your an ork, then I allowed the character to be an Oni). The key to this was that you maintained the standard racial modifiers (just looked different).

Run the idea by your GM and see if they go for it.

Okay, there is compensation there, but its not balanced. Maybe I am misinterpreting balance by assuming that a crippling effect is offset completely by a beneficial effect.

I've also played a blind fighter in 2E DnD. Now I did take blind-fighting to minimize my penalty in combat. But, I spent more points on something I didnt' have to take at all...in order to play with a flaw. The DM did make me do it, I did it on my own to play something different and challenging. Again, its fun versus win.

If you're playing in Seattle (for example), there's no reason your ethnically Japanese ork/oni can't take English as his/her native tongue. Likewise, starting knowledges are in no way restricted. The ethnicity is bound to the metavariant, not your background Knowledges/Languages and fluff.

Well i once played a colour-blind illusionist in GURPS and was of course much more hindered by that then the cost of that disadvantage would suggest.
That has got nothing to do with deliberately making some races cheaper/more expensive because you want them to be common or rare though.


That's why i said most likely and not has to.

Right, it has nothing to do with geography. Japan doesn't has some weird Aspect that dramatically improves the chance of robustus express as Oni instead of baseline Orks. I say dramatically improves because not all ethic Japanese robustus are only (its a startling majority, still like 75%+ Oni) .

Anyone, anywhere with Japanese ancestry could become an Oni if they had the metagenes to become an Ork. Or they could be a regular Ork, though it would be much less common.

-paws

It always is amazing how some prefer to make a character with combination of some odd negative quality and profession/positive quality/whatnot. How about making a blind sniper? Seriously, why would someone with a handicap to something become something like that? Yes, if the character WAS a sniper but was blinded, he still can shoot, but he most likely have learned to do something else instead. Guess that's the "freakshow" character type that some like to play and the only thing the character is, is that combination of oddities.

If one reads the fluff about Oni's, there's a lot more to them. Game mechanic-wise they aren't that much different than orcs, but so what? As some already said, it's also about rarity in places like Seattle. If the game is located in Japan, GM might allow you to make Oni for 20BP.

Some prefer to have some more flavor to their characters with the negative aspects, while to most(?) it's about getting those few extra points to build up your character. If one would make a real life comparison, by far not all people are equally built for 400BPs I myself prefer point buy games as they do make characters much less random and more the way I want the character to be. One bad roll can "ruin" the character concept. Point buy games it takes more skill to create the character than random style, but it still doesn't make them equal or balanced.

I also don't see how 5BP can make such a huge difference on a character build anyway?

Hey, quite exaggerating!

Anyway, is this such a big deal? Are onis being useless really the nail in the coffin of Runners Companion? I mean, really? They cost more because they are rarer. Don't like it? Let your players be one for free. But honestly, don't kick and scream about 5 points. This is such a minor "problem" that I consider it a non-issue. If anyone wants to complain about RC's balance as a whole, I probably won't argue very much, but that's for another thread. This thread is asking why oni cost points, and the question has been answered: no good reason, meh.

Although I've reread through that section in Runner's companion and I have to wonder why Oni cost more than Ogres, seeing as Ogres are rarer than standard Orks, come with a (minor) benefit and cost the same as a standard Ork.

Compared to Oni, which account for more than 75% of robustus in Japan, and come with a no point negative quality.


Unfortunately the pricing decisions seem inconsistent, and somewhat arbitrary.

For me, its overcoming something to still be good at what I want to be good at. For instance, blind fire is what, -6 to your die pool? I'm sure I could still be quite a productive shooter if I always blindfolded myself when in a firefight. I guess its the feeling of tanking your character a little and still feeling satisfied that you can achieve goals. Its a style thing.

But, I do agree with your last sentence...with these types of characters, the combination of oddities define the character. Its highlighted and the rest of the background or style you may have been able to create gets lost. But unlike heavy background characters, you've actually forced the style on your character. I have played as and with way too many people that come up with a storied background but once play starts, the character takes on a different persona and the background is left on the character sheet.

Let's face it, there are at least two camps here...and min/maxers are never going to choose a disadvantage that has no benefit. Otherwise, they wouldn't be min/maxing. While, others are willing to risk being less badass at something to have some extra flavor that they have to play each and every encounter...

Just to put it out there I'm playing the Oni regardless of the 5BP ...I was just wandering if I missed some reasoning behind the higher cost

[[Here is the Character that spurred the question BTW]]

The reasoning behind the higher cost, as said, is because they are 'rare', a system the developers have said they support using, despite it being inconsistent & completely fucking retarded.



Deek: You seem to be under the impression that one cannot create a character to just have fun without intentionally gimping their character, an assumption that is without basis & entirely false. I play characters that are actually good at their job. Why? Because its fucking fun.

The Build Point cost for metatypes is a mechanical balancing system, and as such, should include the mechanical benefits & hindrances of the race in question - and only those benefits & hindrances.

The rarity of a species is entirely fluff, & should be included only in the fluff. Do not punish players for it. If the race is balanced properly, it does not suddenly become the desired choice of powergamers, it does become a viable option for those who wanted to play the race, but justifiably felt the absurd cost was a punishment.


I would also like to remind you that player characters are, by their definition, rare, & often unique. Saying a species is rare cannot justify higher-than-normal costs in a game where being rare is normal.

Quote for truth. Seriously WTF.

No, but I can see how what I have written can be taken that way. I was just saying that a character can be fun to play without being fully optimized. And just because one shooter has two less dice (for example) than another shooter, doesn't mean the former sucks.

So, whether my not fully optimized character is due to me not knowing the rules well enough to squeeze out a few extra dice, or because I chose to intentionally gimp him...if I am still having fun, then no harm. And really, in my 20 or so years of gaming, I think I may have intentionally gimped maybe 2 or 3 characters. Another handful of characters had weird builds, usually resulting in less than stellar performance, but when you are playing with a group that doesn't need full optimization in each character, its not a big deal.

As to the Oni. I don't particularly agree with the direction of using BP to make something rare. Doesn't make sense to me. But, then again, 5BP is not going to sway me away from an Oni if that is what I want to play.

I also agree with this. I played a drake adept, while the same build done as a troll would have come out just as effective, troll stats, and 25 BP left over, at the cost of "being a fucking dragon sometimes" (which I never got to use, I was waiting for a time when it was needed and then the game died suddenly--we're playing Alpha Omega now).

For a lot of us, myself included, that equation works the other way: I would never want to play an Oni because it's 5 BP down the drain. If I REALLY wanted to play an Oni, I'd start as an Ogre and take Changeling I, with the skin as my disadvantage. Better in every way, except my limit of Positive Qualities is slightly higher.

Yup, understood. One of my better friends is like that as well and whenever I take a flaw like this, he is quick to point out that I could have the same end result and not be out anything.

But, I also enjoy Nethack, 10+ year old computers running linux and occaisionally write a letter with my 1960s smith-corona typewriter...I'm obviously a lost cause:)

Except Ogre with weird skin is a freak while Oni is just an orc from Japan. It's also about blending in and how people react to the particular race. If you look blindly at the numbers, then you are right. Who cares about fluff when you can get one skill one higher and 5000y more for the same, eh? Oni is Oni, it costs 25BP according to the dev's.

Cry some more!

It's really not that easy to do.
And anyway those chargen methods aren't even ment to balanced with each other, that why it's not recomended to mix them.

Nope. An Oni is an ork with a particular skin color. If I'm an ork and I have that skin color, I can call myself an oni all I want.

oni don't get the weird skin only
they get weird nose, weird eyes, weird ears and weird hair too.
at least, according to the fluff and images . .
also, their teeth and horns are different too.

Of course it's not as easy to do as guessing a number and writing that down.
But saying they aren't meant to be balanced with each other is just a nicer way of saying I was too lazy to make it something really useful because I didn't want to be writing a whole day on that chapter.

Page 38 of the Runner's companion says that the characters generated via the presented methods are designed to be balanced with each other, even if not exactly equal. That's basically an admission of 'dont check each others math,please'.

I'd slap down any player who wanted to cherry pick an Oni/metavariant creation on the cheap via SURGE. "Oh yeah, I look like an oni, Im treated like an oni until the rules mechanic penalizes me somewhere, then Im a SURGED Ork, but I don't have to pay as much to be an oni so I can save 5 whole bp's". On the whole though, I'm pretty selective about SURGE (it can be weird stuff,but generally not the identical weird readily available in a metavarient). Drop one of your attributes by a point and mtfo to buying gear.

so I have to post on this, mainly because My screen name and avatar are from my SR3 Oni character. I can't even remember If I gained or lost anything in picking an Oni vs. Ork. I did it because I wanted to be an oni. what was harder for me in that game was taking Ninjitsu. I wanted to be a Ninja. but to take Ninjitsu, you had to either ; be actively working for a group of Ninja, or be a Renegade ninja. So I was a Renegade Oni Ninja, probably at a detriment to my numbers, but hey, I could have just been an ork with red skin who knew karate, but does that sound cool? Ninjitsu wasn't even the best martial art if you crunched the numbers. but a practitioner of Wildcat is NOT A NINJA!! I think that it costs 5 BP because it has to cost something right? I bet you can find 400 other instances in the rule books where the numbers don't quite even out. but is it worth it?

Those 5 BP ensure that those who don´t really want to play an Oni won´t take the option. The rarity of the fluff is reflected in the crunch. You are free to play an Oni Wannabe/Lookalike, but be prepared to face social rejection on all fronts.

On the other hand, 5 BP are a totally marginal cost. It is a cooperative game. You "win" by the strength of your concept, the character you represent in the game. If your concept is no longer playable because of those 5 BP, it can´t have been good before. There is a ton of decisions that can be optimised, if you derive the same fun from that as I (formal education ruined me ).

Whence the rancor? Are you trying to start a flame war? That is a naughty thing to try to do.



You've probably already realized this, but just in case: if you think onis are too gimpy, don't make one. Why do you need to go on the offensive about a useless race which is entirely fluff based, and not at all useful system wise? Some people like things that are systemically useless but cool. You don't. Is that a reason to drop f-bombs all over the place? Play how you like, and don't try to start flame wars over someone else liking it different.



What were those words you used? "An assumption that is without basis & entirely false?" Yeah, those words. The build point cost works however the developers want to use it. There is no right and wrong way to assign build points. There is just the way Muspellsheimr likes it, and the way he doesn't. But you can hardly blame the devs for using the latter system, as they are not physic, nor are you their boss.

I would point out that there are quite a few things that cost build points and are completely fluff-based and cosmetic. For instance, money costs build points, and can buy things that convey no systemic advantages, like virtual pets, and personality software for your weapons. If your assumption is true, then all those pieces of gear should be free, or should not exist in the game. I don't think many people would agree with you there, though.

Ultimately, you are pitching a hissy fit over a 5 point option. It's a very small thing! You're acting like have a few spurious choices here and there somehow ruins the game, like it's an attack on your psyche that you can't tolerate without going nuts. Seriously, chill out. Like I said in my last post, this is far from a big deal. You can be a weirdo with shiny skin for 5 points. Some people like that kind of thing. If you don't, that's cool. Make the oni cost the same as an ork, or less if you feel like it. The thing you shouldn't do about it is try to start a flame war with a hostile, accusatory, f-bomb laden post. Scan?

I know that this is not going to come as a surprise, but I like the Oni... the 5bp is completely inconsequential to my desire to play one... I mean really... it is only 5bp... 1 skill rank in a skill or 25,000 nuyen... big deal...

If you think it's that easy go ahed and post you system for all to see.
Seeing as 400Bp character can cost any where between 400 to 1000+ karma, it really isn't that easy to make gen systems balanced with each other.

The Oni race, mechanically speaking, isn't balanced within the BP system compared to other BP costs for races.

Not even when you take into consideration the "rarity" factor based on fluff, considering the price for "Ogres".


I don't have any problems with the BP system or KarmaGen system independantly or even when compared to each other.

What I dislike is starting out with BPs and then switching to karma for character advancement. But that's a whole different discussion.

No, it doesn't. What it does is stop players who want to play an Oni from doing so, because they correctly feel they are being punished for the option. Properly balancing the option will allow anyone wanting to play an Oni to do so without harming their characters capabilities, & anyone who does not want to or does not care will not play an Oni, because it has no significant advantage relative to its cost.

Which is precisely the reason it fails. Fluff & crunch should compliment each other, but should never directly mix.


This has nothing about flame - it is everything about the options in Runners Companion being designed without any regards to balance. This is something that I have brought up repeatedly sense the books release.

What I want is a game that does not punish a player for playing what they would like to play. Shadowrun has a good foundational system. It has a good setting. Most importantly, I can change the rules where needed, which is why I play it. However, I should not need to change the rules to obtain a balanced game. House rules to fit a particular play style are fine. House rules to avoid gross balance issues in the system are not, & I have a ~20 page pamphlet for exactly that; some are currently experimental, but most are not.

The Oni is a 10BP discrepancy, not 5. It is one of the most minor balance issues in Runners Companion, & even SR4, but it is one of the most blatantly obvious, & the topic of this thread. Which is why I am discussing it. Finally, I would also like to point out that the Oni is cheaper than it should be; the Ork cost is off by 15BP.

Why is the Oni a punishing cost compared to any other 'cost' in character creation? Because it can be a la carted on the cheap if someone is willing to dedicate their qualities to emulating the metatype?

Because numerous other options give equal or greater benefits for lesser cost. Because of this, the characters abilities are noticeably reduced (if not greatly), simply because the player wanted a particular concept - a trade off that many people will not make. If it had been properly balanced, there would be no reason for choosing a race over another option except concept, & doing so does not punish the player for that concept - allowing anyone who wants to play that type of character to do so without hindrance.

Yes.



To qualify that: there are always going to be certain combinations that are worse than others in particular instances -- a Troll Ghoul is probably not gonna be your go-to man for a face. However, there should never be an instance where any given race is "strictly better" -- that is, equal or better in every single category, and worse in none -- than another, because that means that someone who wants to play the inferior race automatically starts at a clear disadvantage compared to another player who chooses the better race.

Even with the overhaul though, Shadowrun has never been based around a strictly concept generation, everyone pays for what they want and it means it closes options other characters still have open. Under the priority system all metatypes paid more then humans (who also got a lot less ) and some paid more then others, the elven physad wouldn't be able to afford the kickbutt weapon foci the human adept could. I don't think there was ever 'balance' in SR character creation when it comes to comparing two different characters and I don't think the argument for the runner's companion even has balance with other characters as a consideration. The book features a metatype that gets a full set of extra functional arms with no drawbacks except fluff, and the advantages cannot be purchased by other characters trying to spend the same amount of other resources to accumulate the traits. It's the wrong book for balance in my eyes, it's the right book for 'Im willing to spend X play Y'- if those numbers are out of whack and you don't want to say 'no', adjust the cost freely. I personally wouldn't use much of RC myself, and my players don't argue about costs now anymore then they did in sr1. YMMY of course, but paying for fluff advantages or drawbacks does work for my campaigns players,because we use the fluff. The only 'fairness' I get concerned about is that everyone starts with identical options as everybody else to create their characters (I know some gms who bend rules or provide options to some players,but not others; or ban specific books/combos for certain players).


Under the BP system,our faux Oni now doesn't get +/-35 BPs to blow on tweaking his character, he's spent them posing as an Oni, whereas Real Oni who paid for the metatype still has some wiggle room despite paying a different cost. That seems fair enough in the scheme of things.

Part of the problem.

Precisely the issue I am addressing.

It has never been about a 'faux' vs. 'real' Oni - it has always been about Oni vs. Ork vs. Ogre vs. anything else with comparable racial features.

Under RAW, the only reason you would ever play an Oni over an Ork is for concept, and you are being punished for doing so by 10 BP. The only reason you would ever play an Ork over an Ogre is for concept, & you are being punished for doing so by 5BP.

As a player, I should be able to play what I want without being forced to create an inferior character because of it. If you want to play an inferior character, fine, do so. Automatically including such with various concept options is at best poor design.

For me though, Concept is enough to select a metatype without missing what I'm giving up. If I really want that Dryad, I'll make it and suffer with 'less points'. As a player I appreciate that I can have choices that matter, without having the same 3 starting feats as every other first level human fighter and the same skill bonuses as every other character going to the same core skills. My 'stuff' spent on meta limits my wealth, my magic,my skills and my attributes- maybe I should just play a reg elf and flavor them dryad like? Nah,I want the dryad, I'll skimp somewhere on a charisma skill and/or start it off broke.
I have yet to see a starting character from an experienced player that 10bps ruined a concept for. Tightening the belt elsewhere can focus and make up for it. why should you have to pay more for your choice? Because thats what the option costs, and the player selected that option. In a tight, rp heavy game in the middle of japan, most of the new nonhumans just paid out their butts to be outcasts- in the same number crunching stripped of RP combat sim, the oni is less optimal in less important areas but has a bonus in combat then some other race that's not fair, but it's life. EDIT: I don't think most of the options are balanced in the core rules either..some are too good for their point value for certain characters, and others are too punishing to be considered for my 'typical players'. Having a sensitive system as a mage isn't nearly the handicap it is for street sams. And when you're looking at a character as somebody born with certain assests and drawbacks and not as a spreadsheet of balanced positive and negative qualities, shouldn't there be just as many simesense vertigo people with aptitudes for hacking as there are mages with the issue? I find the fact that there isn't more 'suboptimal' featured in NPCS,PCS and scenarios even more retarded then losing thousands of nuyen because I have tusks and live about half as long,it pretty much boils down to everybody's preferences on playstyle and expectations of fun in their math. I don't find math riddles fun,I find them a neccesary evil.
I'm not baiting you, I'm just at a different side of the argument "If I'm the idiot who wants to spend X on a drake (for example), is it anybody else's fault but mine that he can't do certain things the human character can right out of the box? Was he ripped off?". A lot of the time, I stick to concept regardless of the cost; if I want a Troll face, I'm going to make one despite him hitting some pretty rude caps really early on- giving that character a short game life for advancement,or his lifespan ends,or blahblah. And I don't think any amount of point based system really makes it 'fair' for one starting character to regenerate and fly while no other character shares that ability. I stick mostly to vanilla metatypes, because the draw of any of the metas don't interest me. I can make an african elf without him being a waykambi. I just don't honestly see how any point build costs can be considered 'fair' for all flavors of games. Given the old decker stigma, I used to offer extra perks to players willing to be deckers, they still didn't race to line up. Ditto riggers. If a metatype charges people more, and it still gets people lining up to play them ,(despite rarity and all that justification stuff), it doesn't seem like a ripoff, it sounds like someone willing to trade about one die somewhere for the 'ah cool' factor. If people want to play some overpriced metavariant even though they could get away with cherry picking the advantages and saving some points, i'd welcome them to my game because it's what I like to see, personality over points. Im ok with rarity being a cost quantified with starting resources because if all things were equal, you'd probably never see a human runner again, which most definately isn't supported by the typical game world,even with the higher propensity of the weirdos drawn to the shadows stuff.
Has anyone ever raked over those meta costs completely in RC and tried adjusting them with any real success in a long running game? Did it produce any outside the norm trends in your players? Encourage/Discourage roleplaying or min/maxing? I've used them almost entirely 'by the book' and my players don't have any interest in them aside from the occasional drake,banshee or night one. I've been toying around with returning to the old priority system, but my players do seem to enjoy the micromanaging and point agonizing of Sr4's CC rules.