Oni cost? Options

[Travaler]

I was wandering why the Oni costs 5BP more then a regular ork if all it changes from the base are disadvantages ("Striking Skin Pigmentation" and some fluff Prejudice that is on top of the regular prejudice accorded to Orks)



any Ideas?

[GreyBrother]

'cuz you are speschül (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[The Mack]

I was wandering why the Oni costs 5BP more then a regular ork if all it changes from the base are disadvantages ("Striking Skin Pigmentation" and some fluff Prejudice that is on top of the regular prejudice accorded to Orks)



any Ideas?

I believe that part of the pricing of metatypes (all metatypes) is based on their rarity in SR background, and not solely on mechanical benefits.

[Muspellsheimr]

I believe that part of the pricing of metatypes (all metatypes) is based on their rarity in SR background, and not solely on mechanical benefits.

Which is the single most defining reason why Runners Companion, in regards to game balance, fails.

[Glyph]

The metavariants are deliberately unbalanced in order to make both powergamers and roleplayers happy. The powergamers will be happy because they can say, "Look! For 5 more points to be a Fomorian, you get a metagenetic improvement to Body instead of just dermal armor, and you get the arcane arrestor quality! Kickass!" The roleplayers will be happy because they can say "Look! Oni cost 5 points more despite the fact that they only get additional disadvantages compared to a regular ork, but I'm still playing one! And he's also got the spell knack quality, and none of his dice pools are higher than 5! I'm roleplaying!"

It's quite brilliant, actually.

[Ryu]

What Glyph says. Increasing price is a valid method to induce rarity in a points-buy system. SR4 is not a strategy game, and fair pricing has to include stuff like the "coolness" of an option. There is also no perfect sweet spot of balance for anything, as different players have different perceptions.

[Medicineman]

and the Roleplaying Min/Maxer (like Myself ) is making an Oni with 750 Karma (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

with a speschül Dance
Medicineman

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Actually, it's still retarded. For the same reason that the Druid isn't balanced in D&D.

[Lordmalachdrim]

"Balanced" is over rated. Give me a game to GM where it's less concerned about being mechanically fair to all and more true to the fluff, helping me bring the world to life.

[Veggiesama]

Balance is integral to any game system. If something is too powerful, then more people will gravitate toward it. If something is too weak, then people will shy away. If a game system does one or the other, then a player's options are cut down, which in the long term leads to stagnation. They key is to find a balance.

If I want to play a character crippled in some way (ex. lost a leg in war, or has severe social anxieties), then I should be compensated in some other way (ex. powerful cyber-leg, or a negative quality that grants free BP for other pursuits). If I'm not compensated, then I simply won't cripple myself.

Flaws make for interesting characters, but uncompensated flaws make for lousy gameplay.

In the Oni's case, the "Ohh, I'm new and different" perk would quickly wear thin, and you'd be stuck with a virtual BP penalty. 5 BP is about 10 karma, which is about an adventure behind your companions.

Encouraging rarity by penalizing is a lame idea. They don't do it to mages, and those guys are supposed to be uber-rare. Simply writing "Oni only come from Japan" (or whatever) is more than adequate, because it forces the player to integrate something into their backstory, which leads them on the path to better roleplaying. Why should there be an extra BP penalty involved?

[deek]

If I want to play a character crippled in some way (ex. lost a leg in war, or has severe social anxieties), then I should be compensated in some other way (ex. powerful cyber-leg, or a negative quality that grants free BP for other pursuits). If I'm not compensated, then I simply won't cripple myself.

And that is where the line is drawn, really. Some players feel that if they give themselves a disadvantage, that they should somehow be rewarded in another area. While others just like the extra challenge in roleplaying an "crippled" character.

It reminds me of a HERO game I played a couple years back. We were all a special military investigative unit. I built my character to be deaf to normal sound, but had a special power to allow me to hear on radio frequencies. So, when we were on missions, I was fine, cause we communicated over the radio, but for everything else, I couldn't hear and roleplayed that very well. I was quite upset when my GM gave me my hearing back in a later adventure...the whole point for that character was the struggle and giving me a challenge to roleplay... I didn't need nor want compensation...

When the point is to have fun, then balance takes a backseat. When the point is to "win", well, then everything needs to be balanced.

[suppenhuhn]

And that is where the line is drawn, really. Some players feel that if they give themselves a disadvantage, that they should somehow be rewarded in another area. While others just like the extra challenge in roleplaying an "crippled" character.

It reminds me of a HERO game I played a couple years back. We were all a special military investigative unit. I built my character to be deaf to normal sound, but had a special power to allow me to hear on radio frequencies. So, when we were on missions, I was fine, cause we communicated over the radio, but for everything else, I couldn't hear and roleplayed that very well. I was quite upset when my GM gave me my hearing back in a later adventure...the whole point for that character was the struggle and giving me a challenge to roleplay... I didn't need nor want compensation...

Huh?
Enhanced Sense: Radio Perception, 8 Points
Physical Limitation: Deaf (Frequently,Greatly), -15 Points

Looks pretty much like compensation to me.

The whole point of rules is to balance things. Onis are from Japan, so most likely they have to spend some knowledge skills on English and rarely used japanese stuff. There's no need to make them more expensive as a race.
Runners Companion would have been much better (as in actually useful) if the writers would have taken the effort to balance things. Karma Generation could have been balanced to BP gen with not that much effort but they prefered to pull some numbers out of their ass because it's more convenient.
Same for lifestyle qualities and new races. The fluff might be nice but rules wise the whole book sucks.

[paws2sky]

Which is the single most defining reason why Runners Companion, in regards to game balance, fails.

Agreed.

My wife wanted to make an Ork with green skin (we've played too much Warhammer) and saw the Hobgoblin metavariant, which seemed to fit the concept, except for the Fangs. It was even vindictive, which she liked.

After thinking about it though, we opted for a Class I Changeling with green skin, a couple metagenetic positive qualities, and poor self control (vindictive). She saved 5 BP doing it that way.

Even my "yay, RP!" / "meh, rules" wife saw it as a bad deal.

-paws

[Jhaiisiin]

Hmm... 5 extra build points for the rarity of being an oni... vs 20 extra build points for the rarity of being a magician. And they don't do it to mages how?

[Draco18s]

Hmm... 5 extra build points for the rarity of being an oni... vs 20 extra build points for the rarity of being a magician. And they don't do it to mages how?

"Magician" is a little bit more beneficial than oni.

Just

a

little.

[TBRMInsanity]

I remember back in SR2 that I had a house rule that stated if you use the standard modifiers for what ever race you wanted to play and you were also from the country where the metavariant originates from, then you are that metavariant (ie if you speak Japanese as your main language, your back story puts you in Japan, your an ork, then I allowed the character to be an Oni). The key to this was that you maintained the standard racial modifiers (just looked different).

Run the idea by your GM and see if they go for it.

[deek]

Huh?
Enhanced Sense: Radio Perception, 8 Points
Physical Limitation: Deaf (Frequently,Greatly), -15 Points

Looks pretty much like compensation to me.

Okay, there is compensation there, but its not balanced. Maybe I am misinterpreting balance by assuming that a crippling effect is offset completely by a beneficial effect.

I've also played a blind fighter in 2E DnD. Now I did take blind-fighting to minimize my penalty in combat. But, I spent more points on something I didnt' have to take at all...in order to play with a flaw. The DM did make me do it, I did it on my own to play something different and challenging. Again, its fun versus win.

[HappyDaze]

The whole point of rules is to balance things. Onis are from Japan, so most likely they have to spend some knowledge skills on English and rarely used japanese stuff. There's no need to make them more expensive as a race.

If you're playing in Seattle (for example), there's no reason your ethnically Japanese ork/oni can't take English as his/her native tongue. Likewise, starting knowledges are in no way restricted. The ethnicity is bound to the metavariant, not your background Knowledges/Languages and fluff.

[suppenhuhn]

Okay, there is compensation there, but its not balanced. Maybe I am misinterpreting balance by assuming that a crippling effect is offset completely by a beneficial effect.

I've also played a blind fighter in 2E DnD. Now I did take blind-fighting to minimize my penalty in combat. But, I spent more points on something I didnt' have to take at all...in order to play with a flaw. The DM did make me do it, I did it on my own to play something different and challenging. Again, its fun versus win.

Well i once played a colour-blind illusionist in GURPS and was of course much more hindered by that then the cost of that disadvantage would suggest.
That has got nothing to do with deliberately making some races cheaper/more expensive because you want them to be common or rare though.

If you're playing in Seattle (for example), there's no reason your ethnically Japanese ork/oni can't take English as his/her native tongue. Likewise, starting knowledges are in no way restricted. The ethnicity is bound to the metavariant, not your background Knowledges/Languages and fluff.

That's why i said most likely and not has to.

[paws2sky]

If you're playing in Seattle (for example), there's no reason your ethnically Japanese ork/oni can't take English as his/her native tongue. Likewise, starting knowledges are in no way restricted. The ethnicity is bound to the metavariant, not your background Knowledges/Languages and fluff.

Right, it has nothing to do with geography. Japan doesn't has some weird Aspect that dramatically improves the chance of robustus express as Oni instead of baseline Orks. I say dramatically improves because not all ethic Japanese robustus are only (its a startling majority, still like 75%+ Oni) .

Anyone, anywhere with Japanese ancestry could become an Oni if they had the metagenes to become an Ork. Or they could be a regular Ork, though it would be much less common.

-paws

[BullZeye]

It always is amazing how some prefer to make a character with combination of some odd negative quality and profession/positive quality/whatnot. How about making a blind sniper? Seriously, why would someone with a handicap to something become something like that? Yes, if the character WAS a sniper but was blinded, he still can shoot, but he most likely have learned to do something else instead. Guess that's the "freakshow" character type that some like to play and the only thing the character is, is that combination of oddities.

If one reads the fluff about Oni's, there's a lot more to them. Game mechanic-wise they aren't that much different than orcs, but so what? As some already said, it's also about rarity in places like Seattle. If the game is located in Japan, GM might allow you to make Oni for 20BP.

Some prefer to have some more flavor to their characters with the negative aspects, while to most(?) it's about getting those few extra points to build up your character. If one would make a real life comparison, by far not all people are equally built for 400BPs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I myself prefer point buy games as they do make characters much less random and more the way I want the character to be. One bad roll can "ruin" the character concept. Point buy games it takes more skill to create the character than random style, but it still doesn't make them equal or balanced.

I also don't see how 5BP can make such a huge difference on a character build anyway?

[Larme]

"Magician" is a little bit more beneficial than oni.

Just

a

little.

Hey, quite exaggerating! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Anyway, is this such a big deal? Are onis being useless really the nail in the coffin of Runners Companion? I mean, really? They cost more because they are rarer. Don't like it? Let your players be one for free. But honestly, don't kick and scream about 5 points. This is such a minor "problem" that I consider it a non-issue. If anyone wants to complain about RC's balance as a whole, I probably won't argue very much, but that's for another thread. This thread is asking why oni cost points, and the question has been answered: no good reason, meh.

[The Mack]

They cost more because they are rarer.

snip...

This thread is asking why oni cost points, and the question has been answered: no good reason, meh.

Although I've reread through that section in Runner's companion and I have to wonder why Oni cost more than Ogres, seeing as Ogres are rarer than standard Orks, come with a (minor) benefit and cost the same as a standard Ork.

Compared to Oni, which account for more than 75% of robustus in Japan, and come with a no point negative quality.


Unfortunately the pricing decisions seem inconsistent, and somewhat arbitrary.

[deek]

It always is amazing how some prefer to make a character with combination of some odd negative quality and profession/positive quality/whatnot. How about making a blind sniper? Seriously, why would someone with a handicap to something become something like that? Yes, if the character WAS a sniper but was blinded, he still can shoot, but he most likely have learned to do something else instead. Guess that's the "freakshow" character type that some like to play and the only thing the character is, is that combination of oddities.

For me, its overcoming something to still be good at what I want to be good at. For instance, blind fire is what, -6 to your die pool? I'm sure I could still be quite a productive shooter if I always blindfolded myself when in a firefight. I guess its the feeling of tanking your character a little and still feeling satisfied that you can achieve goals. Its a style thing.

But, I do agree with your last sentence...with these types of characters, the combination of oddities define the character. Its highlighted and the rest of the background or style you may have been able to create gets lost. But unlike heavy background characters, you've actually forced the style on your character. I have played as and with way too many people that come up with a storied background but once play starts, the character takes on a different persona and the background is left on the character sheet.

Let's face it, there are at least two camps here...and min/maxers are never going to choose a disadvantage that has no benefit. Otherwise, they wouldn't be min/maxing. While, others are willing to risk being less badass at something to have some extra flavor that they have to play each and every encounter...

[Travaler]

Just to put it out there I'm playing the Oni regardless of the 5BP ...I was just wandering if I missed some reasoning behind the higher cost

[[Here is the Character that spurred the question BTW]]