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Typhon
post May 21 2009, 09:20 AM
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So when it comes to pistols I'm normally pretty generic, either a Pred or Manhunter is fine by me. So I'm making a new character and a buddy of mine lends me Arsenal (great book btw) and I decide to check out some of the pistols in there and I realize I'm not sure what specializations will work with what guns.

So here is my problem, SR4 Specializations for pistols are Hold out, Taser, Semi-Automatic, and Revolvers. Tasers being their own specialization is fine by me, but what if a hold out pistol is also a revolver or a semi-auto? It seems like if you are going to have a class of weapons (Hold outs) be a specialization, you should also be able to specialize in other classes like the light pistol or the heavy pistol. What is the the Deputy? It's a revolver but it fires in semi-automatic mode. If I had to choose I'd say it would use the revolver specialization because its class is a 'revolver' but then what makes a gun a semi-auto? The Cavalier scout is a hold-out that in the text is listed as a semi-automatic pistol.


What specialization does the Ruger Thunderbolt use?


Do the specializations overlap? Would I be able to use my specialization in revolvers to fire off anything with (cy) in the ammo column even if it is a hold out or fires in semi-automatic mode?

I guess I can't seem to wrap my head around having being able to be specialized in a class of weapons or a particular firing mode. Perhaps it is just bad word choice on the part of the writers but it almost seems like the specializations would make more sense as : taser, hold-outs, light pistols, and heavy pistols. but then you'd just be setting up the specializations to read : "crap", "crap", "mega-crap", and "correct choice" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Can anyone illuminate me here? Am I totally off?


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Thanee
post May 21 2009, 09:29 AM
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Well, I think you are spot on. It's not absolutely clear.

I would have all hold-outs (semi-auto or revolver or whatnot) under the hold-out specialization, all non-hold-out revolvers (regardless of their fire mode) under revolver, and everything else under semi-automatic (apart from tasers, of course, which are their own category).

The Thunderbolt would be in the SA category.

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Typhon
post May 21 2009, 09:40 AM
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That is how I was looking at it too, but it just seems so awkward to have specializations by class (Hold outs), firing mode (Semi-automatics), ammo storage type (cylinders), and then Ammo type(taser darts).


If this is the case why would anyone specialize revolvers? there are like 4 of 'em in core and arsenal combined O.o






EDIT Grammerz
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Medicineman
post May 21 2009, 10:02 AM
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Specialisation seems to be flexible.It doesn't matter when you want to Specialise in the
Cavalier deputy,You can take either Revolver or Semi-Auto
but If You also want to be very Good with the Ruger Super Warhawk you should take Revolver
And to why take a Revolver ? Look at the Enfield Merlin with its Ammo Skip System Its pretty Cool to have the needed Bullet in your Cylinder (Judge Dredd anyone ?)

JahaHey
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Meatbag
post May 21 2009, 12:08 PM
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I've always played it like so:

Holdouts are always "holdouts", regardless of firing mode or feeding method.

Tasers are always "tasers", regardless of firing mode or feeding method.

Anything that uses the recoil of the last shot to chamber the next is "semi-automatic". That means all magazine-loaded pistols, internal or external, that don't fall into the previous two categories.

Anything that doesn't is a revolver*. This isn't strictly accurate, but the weapons it encompasses (Sakura Fubuki, and that goofy single-shot pistol with a very Japanese name) need all the encouragement they can get.

*I assume the Deputy is a double-action, while the Warhawk is a single. This allows it to be fired with every pull of the trigger, like a semi-automatic, without being classified as one. In double-actions, the cylinder is rotated by the force of pulling the trigger.
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Dragnar
post May 21 2009, 12:10 PM
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We simply changed the possible specialisations to conform to the weapon types (ie: hold-out, heavy pistol, etc.).
All the other ranged combat skills work the same, we never got why pistols should be different.
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Meatbag
post May 21 2009, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ May 21 2009, 10:02 AM) *
ook at the Enfield Merlin with its Ammo Skip System Its pretty Cool to have the needed Bullet in your Cylinder (Judge Dredd anyone ?)



Where is that, anyway? I can't find it in my copy of Arsenal.
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Cthulhudreams
post May 21 2009, 12:27 PM
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I just make them overlap, and you can specalise in pretty much whatever short of 'badassery' because I don't care - and if you don't, specalisations like revolver are pretty crappy.
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DireRadiant
post May 21 2009, 04:16 PM
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Your specialization is whatever you define it to be and agreed on with your GM. Limiting it to predefined choices limits your imagination, which limits fun.
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Warlordtheft
post May 21 2009, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Typhon @ May 21 2009, 04:40 AM) *
That is how I was looking at it too, but it just seems so awkward to have specializations by class (Hold outs), firing mode (Semi-automatics), ammo storage type (cylinders), and then Ammo type(taser darts).


If this is the case why would anyone specialize revolvers? there are like 4 of 'em in core and arsenal combined O.o

EDIT Grammerz

Cause Revolvers are so cool-Do you feel lucky, Punk?

I did-with an NPC that had 2 revolvers, cyberarms and had them smartlinked (two seperate smartlinks-not in raw but I saw no reason they couldn't)), ambedextrous, hidden in his cyberarms that had the cyberslide).

Did I mention his modded ruger warhawks cost 8,000 each?

Man I need to get him back into the game......

But yeah-it does seem weird that pistols break out that way. I would think that they meant semi-autos as in APIV, colt manhunter and the like. SA covers just about every pistol except SS pistols of which there very few.



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Medicineman
post May 21 2009, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE (Meatbag @ May 21 2009, 08:18 AM) *
Where is that, anyway? I can't find it in my copy of Arsenal.

It's in the German Arsenal

Hough!
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Kerenshara
post May 21 2009, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE (Typhon @ May 21 2009, 04:40 AM) *
That is how I was looking at it too, but it just seems so awkward to have specializations by class (Hold outs), firing mode (Semi-automatics), ammo storage type (cylinders), and then Ammo type(taser darts).


If this is the case why would anyone specialize revolvers? there are like 4 of 'em in core and arsenal combined O.o

Well, tasers have a distinctly limited range. Their ballistics are going to be completely different by being more succeptible to wind, slower through the air so leading a moving target becomes a different proposition.

Semi-automatic operation weapons are a different proposition from cylinders in operations, loading and usually in firing. Revolvers have a diferent center of balance from an automatic, with their ammunition in front of the hand as opposed to inside the grip. Remember, one of the non-shooting things the skill is used for is quick draw, and revolvers handle diferently enough that they would be separate. Consider that a GM could also require a test for reloading under duress, and even with a speed loader, reloading a revolver is going to be completely different from inserting a box magazine.

It's pretty simple to distinguish the weapons: anything with a cylinder (Cy) is a revolver, size is irrelevant.

As to why, the most powerful pistol weapons damage-wise are revolvers. And for people whose marksmanship is low enough, taking the time to make the one shot count means the (usually) lower RoF of a revolver is largely mitigated. Plus, for anybody who's seen XXX with Vin Diesel realizes a revolver can slot as many diferent kinds of ammo as they have chambers. Add a smartgun link, and selecting among them is free. You can't do that with an auto. OK, and there's a matter of style, for those who are partial...

Every weapon has it's niche, if it didn't, it wouldn't exist any more.


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Cadmus
post May 21 2009, 11:08 PM
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The thunderhawk is a heavy pistol right? so you just have a pistol Spec in, Heavy Pistols,
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crash2029
post May 21 2009, 11:09 PM
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Yeah it can be a bit confusing if you don't know much about guns.

The semi-auto specialization refers not to the fire rate (SS, SA, BF, FA) but rather to the operation of the weapon. Semi-autos, also known as autoloaders, typically have a detachable box magazin located in the grip. This is not a hard an fast rule but rather a common feature. For example the Steyr 1912, a well respected handgun, has an internal non-detachable magazine located in the grip. The Mauser military c/12, also known as the "Broomhandle Mauser" has an internal non-detachable magazine located forward of the trigger. The defining aspect of autoloaders, however, is that when the trigger is pulled the weapon discharges and another round is deposited in the chamber, ready to fire. The exact method by which the magazine is indexed varies by weapon, although the great majority of pistols use a variation on recoil operation, by which the recoil forces cause the the slide/bolt mechanism to retract allowing the spent casing to be ejected and a new round is pushed up by the springs in the magazine and fed into position in the chamber by the return stroke of the slide/bolt mechanism. It is worth noting that a few autoloaders rely on the gas-operation method common to automatic rifles. This method uses a "tap" in the barrel that redirects some of the propellant gases into pushing the slide/bolt mechanism thus indexing the magazine.

Revolvers use a much simpler and older system to operate. They have the ammunition radially spaced in a cylinder. The hammer is retracted usually by a thumb spur located on the rear of the weapon. The retraction of the hammer causes the cylinder to index. When the trigger is pulled the hammer is propelled via springs into the firing pin, thus discharging the weapon. Double-action revolvers have only a minor difference in their operation. In their operation the trigger pull is much longer as first it retracts, then releases the hammer. As before the retraction of the hammer indexes the cylinder.

In my opinion the specialization of hold-out is rather odd as the others are distinguished by method of operation while the only distingushment in hold-outs is their size and concealability.
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wylie
post May 21 2009, 11:22 PM
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cuz revolvers are COOL!!

really, its more of character concept for me. most get a ares predator. if I have certain twists, like based off a gunslinger or a cowboy character, then I go with the revolver. plus, the deputy holds 7 shots!!

real world--if a semi-automatic jams, it takes time to clear
revolvers don't jam. if thery misfire, just turn to the next cylinder

now lets put this in game mechanics:
the street sam fires his Ares Predator, rolling glitches. GM rules his gun jams & must take time to clear the weapon
the tribal warrior (yeah, that guy from 1st ED) fires his revolver, getting a glitch. GM rules misfire (bad round). simple action to rotate to next cylinder to keep firing, or free with smartlink

plus, depending on the people you are dealing with, they will either misjudge you thinking your PC is nuts for using a relic, or respect you because you don't need many bullets
hey, mel gibson laughed at danny glover in lethal weapon for using a 6 shooter. 1 shot, 1 kill I think is what danny said

if you watch SPIKE TV, they got this show called Deadlist Warrior. the other week they showed where the Mafia would chew through people with a double barrel sawed off shotgun. 2 bullets! think about it

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Wounded Ronin
post May 21 2009, 11:49 PM
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QUOTE (Typhon @ May 21 2009, 05:20 AM) *
SR4 Specializations for pistols are Hold out, Taser, Semi-Automatic, and Revolvers.


Ugh, that makes my brain hurt. What if your semi-auto had a double action mode and a manual decocker? That is just like firing a revolver, at least on the first shot.
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Kerenshara
post May 21 2009, 11:57 PM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ May 21 2009, 06:09 PM) *
Yeah it can be a bit confusing if you don't know much about guns.

*Snip*

In my opinion the specialization of hold-out is rather odd as the others are distinguished by method of operation while the only distingushment in hold-outs is their size and concealability.

Holdouts are small enough that they would require a totally separate set of skills to manipulate, load and fire. Sure, it's point and pull the trigger, but I can tell you when I have fired some of the very small pistols, they take some getting used to. If they take getting used to, they would be a separate specialization for the reasons I mentioned above. It's not just putting rounds down range. There is loading, unloading, clearing, cleaning, repair, unjamming... on a weapon that small, it's not the same exact actions.

Specializations represent a high amount of familiarity and practice of one aspect of a skill over another. They are as much about flavor as statististics.
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Writer
post May 22 2009, 12:08 AM
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I would say the specializations overlap. If you want to focus on revolvers, you focus on revolvers, no matter what size. If you want to focus on small hold-outs, you will become familiar with some revolvers and some semi-automatics. Larger revolvers are still revolvers, but your focus is less on the type and more on the size. I see it as a game mechanic, not a hard category.

Take Pilot Aircraft, for example. The specializations include: Fixed-Wing, Lighter-Than-Air, Remote Operation, Rotary Wing, Tilt Wing, Vectored Thrust. Name one vehicle you can operate with "Remote Operation" that doesn't overlap with any of the other categories. If your skill is 4, and your specialization is Remote Operation, you can fly Fixed-Wing aircraft just fine with skill 4, but when you use Remote Operation, you really excel. If your specialization was Fixed-Wing, you would excel with Fixed-Wing, whether you were flying by Remote Operation or not.
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Wounded Ronin
post May 22 2009, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 21 2009, 06:57 PM) *
Holdouts are small enough that they would require a totally separate set of skills to manipulate, load and fire. Sure, it's point and pull the trigger, but I can tell you when I have fired some of the very small pistols, they take some getting used to. If they take getting used to, they would be a separate specialization for the reasons I mentioned above. It's not just putting rounds down range. There is loading, unloading, clearing, cleaning, repair, unjamming... on a weapon that small, it's not the same exact actions.


Ugh, at that point it sound easier just to punch the enemy really hard. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)
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Falconer
post May 22 2009, 02:38 AM
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Remember... specializations are w/ the approval of your GM.

And they're quite arbitrary... for example... you could specialize long-arms in 'pump action' w/ your GM's approval... that would apply to all pump action shotguns and rifles. While not applying to bolt-action or auto-loaders.

Similarly, you could specialize unarmed combat for defense.... you get to add 2 dice when defending against melee attack using unarmed no matter what the style. Or similarly, if you're some martial arts nut w/ a style.. specialize it in that style (and add it to both attack and defense, only when using that style).

Hold-out is nothing but a generic pidgeonhole. It simply refers to small low-capacity pistols of limited calibre (low damage) which are easily hidden (high concealability factor).
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Kerenshara
post May 22 2009, 06:21 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 21 2009, 07:19 PM) *
Ugh, at that point it sound easier just to punch the enemy really hard. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Do you hear me arguing?

*grins*

Hold-outs are wonderful for gunfights in a phone booth or a small boardroom. Beyond that, either run, take cover, or bring a more apropriate weapon. Unless it happens to be a "noisy cricket", in which case I recommend you brace yo'self!

The pistol skill covers the broad ability to use single handed, non-automatic bullet firing weapons. It covers all aspects of same. Specialization is really a focus, a representation of preference and familiarity. I don't know why most characters would consider hold-outs as a specialization, but tasers would make sense for non-lethally minded characters. And as I said before, revolvers are STILL the big bang in 2070. But most 'runners would be wise to take semi-automatics, because the majority of the weapons they will use on runs will fall into that category, and most will have a prefered default sidearm that falls into that category, giving justification for the specialization in the first place.
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Typhon
post May 22 2009, 06:49 AM
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QUOTE (Writer @ May 21 2009, 08:08 PM) *
I would say the specializations overlap. If you want to focus on revolvers, you focus on revolvers, no matter what size. If you want to focus on small hold-outs, you will become familiar with some revolvers and some semi-automatics. Larger revolvers are still revolvers, but your focus is less on the type and more on the size. I see it as a game mechanic, not a hard category.

Take Pilot Aircraft, for example. The specializations include: Fixed-Wing, Lighter-Than-Air, Remote Operation, Rotary Wing, Tilt Wing, Vectored Thrust. Name one vehicle you can operate with "Remote Operation" that doesn't overlap with any of the other categories. If your skill is 4, and your specialization is Remote Operation, you can fly Fixed-Wing aircraft just fine with skill 4, but when you use Remote Operation, you really excel. If your specialization was Fixed-Wing, you would excel with Fixed-Wing, whether you were flying by Remote Operation or not.



Ah. Okay, that seals it for me, you are quite correct. I think it would be safe to assume that the specializations do overlap, so a specialization in semi-autos would allow you to get the bonus for a Deputy, a semi-automatic revolver, but not for the Warhawk due to it being a single shot pistol. So if you wanted the heavy hitter pistols you'd go revolvers and sacrifice your available choices for guns, but the guns that you can choose from rock socks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Where as a specialization in semi-autos will give you a large variety of pistols, but nothing that stands out for damage like the warhawk.
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crash2029
post May 22 2009, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 21 2009, 07:57 PM) *
Holdouts are small enough that they would require a totally separate set of skills to manipulate, load and fire. Sure, it's point and pull the trigger, but I can tell you when I have fired some of the very small pistols, they take some getting used to. If they take getting used to, they would be a separate specialization for the reasons I mentioned above. It's not just putting rounds down range. There is loading, unloading, clearing, cleaning, repair, unjamming... on a weapon that small, it's not the same exact actions.

Specializations represent a high amount of familiarity and practice of one aspect of a skill over another. They are as much about flavor as statististics.


Whilst I have spent time studying various firearms and associated technologies I unfortunately never had the opportunity to actually fire one. I would readily defer to one who has actually spent time on the range. It's kind of embarassing that as much as I love and study firearms I have never fired one. Ah, c'est la vie.
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Writer
post May 22 2009, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ May 22 2009, 03:13 PM) *
Whilst I have spent time studying various firearms and associated technologies I unfortunately never had the opportunity to actually fire one. I would readily defer to one who has actually spent time on the range. It's kind of embarassing that as much as I love and study firearms I have never fired one. Ah, c'est la vie.


I owned a black powder revolver for a short time, and I have fired pistols a couple times, but I apparently don't give off the alpha male vibe to my friends, so they don't invite me to their gun outtings. A shame really, because I seem to be naturally good (not awesome, just good) with pistols.
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InfinityzeN
post May 22 2009, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (Typhon @ May 22 2009, 01:49 AM) *
Ah. Okay, that seals it for me, you are quite correct. I think it would be safe to assume that the specializations do overlap, so a specialization in semi-autos would allow you to get the bonus for a Deputy, a semi-automatic revolver, but not for the Warhawk due to it being a single shot pistol. So if you wanted the heavy hitter pistols you'd go revolvers and sacrifice your available choices for guns, but the guns that you can choose from rock socks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Where as a specialization in semi-autos will give you a large variety of pistols, but nothing that stands out for damage like the warhawk.


Actually your wrong bro. The Deputy is not a semi-automatic. Granted, it has the SA firing rate (which stands for Single Action, not Semi-Automatic), but it is a revolver. Anything with 'cy' listed in the ammo is a revolver. Anything with 'c' listed in the ammo is a semi-automatic.
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Muspellsheimr
post May 22 2009, 11:25 PM
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QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ May 22 2009, 05:07 PM) *
Actually your wrong bro. The Deputy is not a semi-automatic. Granted, it has the SA firing rate (which stands for Single Action, not Semi-Automatic), but it is a revolver. Anything with 'cy' listed in the ammo is a revolver. Anything with 'c' listed in the ammo is a semi-automatic.

Incorrect.

SS = Single Shot.
SA = Semi-Automatic
BF = Burst Fire
FA = Full Auto


There is absolutely nothing indicating that if it is a revolver, it cannot be semi-auto. Further, there is nothing supporting the idea that a clip-loaded weapon is always semi-auto.
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Daishi
post May 23 2009, 12:58 AM
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There are two definitions of semi-automatic at play in this discussion that do not completely overlap and that needs to be clearly acknowledged.

(1) A game mechanic firing rate
(2) A real world loading mechanism for firearms

The Deputy qualifies under (1) but not under (2).

Which meaning applies as a specialization? The inclusion of Revolvers as a category suggests (2) was the intention, but use of the specific game term "Semi Automatic" without any context has a precedence that leads (1) to be the stricter reading and more likely chosen option.

I have no disagreement with anyone who reads the rules and answers that (1) is the meaning of the specialization. As a rules lawyer, I would agree. However, that also makes the Semi Automatic specialization excessively expansive, especially when considering the low cost of a Firing Rate Mod that can bring the few non SA pistols under the purview of that specialization. As a remedy I would think it better to go one of two ways:

(a) Change the specialization list to match the pistol classification used in game (Holdout, Light, Heavy, Taser)
(b) Interpret the specialization list as by fluffy operation, not game mechanic.

Currently, I'm going with (b) which would place the Deputy (or a customized Warhawk) as a revolver only and not a semi automatic.
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Muspellsheimr
post May 23 2009, 01:07 AM
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Or...

Even if a pistol is capable of Semi-Automatic fire, it is currently a Burst Fire weapon if you are using it to fire bursts - and as such, would not receive benefit of a SA specialization.

It is because of this that I rarely specialize in firing modes, instead using weapon category (I like having both SA & BF available).
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Warlordtheft
post May 23 2009, 02:52 AM
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QUOTE (Writer @ May 22 2009, 05:06 PM) *
I owned a black powder revolver for a short time, and I have fired pistols a couple times, but I apparently don't give off the alpha male vibe to my friends, so they don't invite me to their gun outtings. A shame really, because I seem to be naturally good (not awesome, just good) with pistols.


I still have my 1860 Remington Army...differrentt from firing a modern double action for sure. Really though most of the skills used with firearms are highly transferable from on type (pistols) to another(rifles).
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kigmatzomat
post May 23 2009, 03:12 AM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ May 22 2009, 03:13 PM) *
Whilst I have spent time studying various firearms and associated technologies I unfortunately never had the opportunity to actually fire one. I would readily defer to one who has actually spent time on the range.


There are some ergonomic issues with holdouts and double action revolvers.

See, a holdout is generally so small that your pinky usually doesn't touch the grip. Some of them the ring finger isn't doing a lot either. That makes it much less stable in hand. Combined with the minimal barrel and you've got no sight picture. Recoil is magnified because a) the gun weighs a lot less and b) the afore mentioned grip issues. Plus, muzzleblast is a LOT closer to your hand.

The SA revolvers, properly double action revolvers, typically require a lot more work at the trigger. In an autoloader or single action revolver your trigger pull just drops the hammer. The DA revolver has the trigger pull rotate the barrel, pull back the hammer and drop it. That means the gun has torque and motion in two directions along the barrel axis prior to the round actually going off. All that adds up to a noticeably different shooting experience. I knew one guy who kept getting distracted by the motion of the cylinder (he was kinda OCD/ADD) and just couldn't use double actions with any skill.

Oh and recoil in revolvers can be a lot more interesting. A recoil-operated autoloader uses some of the energy to cycle rounds but the big difference is that the slide mechanism extends the recoil duration, lowering the peak experienced force. Revolvers don't have that slide to spread out recoil so there's a lot "sharper" feel to a revolver.

This comes from a shooter who's favorite "banger" is a CZ52 pistol. Oh, how that muzzle flash lights up a range!
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Mäx
post May 23 2009, 08:55 AM
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I have always read the semi-automatic speciality as meaning This pistol type
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Wounded Ronin
post May 23 2009, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ May 22 2009, 11:12 PM) *
The SA revolvers, properly double action revolvers, typically require a lot more work at the trigger. In an autoloader or single action revolver your trigger pull just drops the hammer. The DA revolver has the trigger pull rotate the barrel, pull back the hammer and drop it. That means the gun has torque and motion in two directions along the barrel axis prior to the round actually going off. All that adds up to a noticeably different shooting experience.


Exactly. For best results, I have to quickly adjust my trigger finger between my first (double action) and second (single action) shot on my P97DC when I draw and fire two or more times.
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Kerenshara
post May 24 2009, 03:09 AM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ May 22 2009, 11:12 PM) *
There are some ergonomic issues with holdouts and double action revolvers.

See, a holdout is generally so small that your pinky usually doesn't touch the grip. Some of them the ring finger isn't doing a lot either. That makes it much less stable in hand. Combined with the minimal barrel and you've got no sight picture. Recoil is magnified because a) the gun weighs a lot less and b) the afore mentioned grip issues. Plus, muzzleblast is a LOT closer to your hand.

The SA revolvers, properly double action revolvers, typically require a lot more work at the trigger. In an autoloader or single action revolver your trigger pull just drops the hammer. The DA revolver has the trigger pull rotate the barrel, pull back the hammer and drop it. That means the gun has torque and motion in two directions along the barrel axis prior to the round actually going off. All that adds up to a noticeably different shooting experience. I knew one guy who kept getting distracted by the motion of the cylinder (he was kinda OCD/ADD) and just couldn't use double actions with any skill.

Oh and recoil in revolvers can be a lot more interesting. A recoil-operated autoloader uses some of the energy to cycle rounds but the big difference is that the slide mechanism extends the recoil duration, lowering the peak experienced force. Revolvers don't have that slide to spread out recoil so there's a lot "sharper" feel to a revolver.

This comes from a shooter who's favorite "banger" is a CZ52 pistol. Oh, how that muzzle flash lights up a range!

Thank you for taking the time to craft this answer. It addresses some of whatI tried to but gives a better real-world example of why it might "feel" diferent enough to warrant a separate specialization. Wonderful!
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Draco18s
post May 24 2009, 03:29 AM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ May 22 2009, 03:13 PM) *
Whilst I have spent time studying various firearms and associated technologies I unfortunately never had the opportunity to actually fire one. I would readily defer to one who has actually spent time on the range. It's kind of embarassing that as much as I love and study firearms I have never fired one. Ah, c'est la vie.


Only BB guns, .22 rifles, and a black powder rifle (once) here. Good ol' boy scouts (now if only they'd kept Bee Keeping...)
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Wounded Ronin
post May 24 2009, 04:56 AM
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I think that everybody should be trained and practiced in the operation of a variety of firearms. I also think that everybody should practice at least one combative sport. I think it would help everyone stay on the same page in life.
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Kingboy
post May 24 2009, 05:39 AM
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Does that come with an obligatory side of dance, painting, poetry and calligraphy as well?
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Draco18s
post May 24 2009, 06:00 AM
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QUOTE (Kingboy @ May 24 2009, 12:39 AM) *
Does that come with an obligatory side of dance, painting, poetry and calligraphy as well?


I had calligraphy in elementary school.
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hyzmarca
post May 24 2009, 06:40 AM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ May 22 2009, 10:12 PM) *
The SA revolvers, properly double action revolvers, typically require a lot more work at the trigger. In an autoloader or single action revolver your trigger pull just drops the hammer. The DA revolver has the trigger pull rotate the barrel, pull back the hammer and drop it.


A semi-automatic revolver isn't a double action revolver. A semi-automatic revolver is a semi-automatic revolver. A revolver that uses the force of recoil to spin the cylinder. They are very rare, but a few do exist, most prominently the Mateba Unica 6 and the Welby-Fosbery.

I'm going to assume that the SA revolvers in SR are of this type, because there is no rule prohibiting one from modifying them for burst fire, which would only be possible with an actual semi-automatic mechanism.
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Daishi
post May 24 2009, 08:12 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 24 2009, 12:40 AM) *
A semi-automatic revolver isn't a double action revolver. A semi-automatic revolver is a semi-automatic revolver. A revolver that uses the force of recoil to spin the cylinder. They are very rare, but a few do exist, most prominently the Mateba Unica 6 and the Welby-Frosby.

I'm going to assume that the SA revolvers in SR are of this type, because there is no rule prohibiting one from modifying them for burst fire, which would only be possible with an actual semi-automatic mechanism.

Semi Automatic (SA) the game term does not specifically mean a self-loading semi-automatic firearm. It just means the weapon may fire single rounds twice in the same Action Phase, regardless of the loading mechanism. Nothing more, nothing less. This usually entails a self-loading semi-automatic mechanism as described in the link (from which the game term inherits the name), but there are numerous exceptions. SA weapons can also include double-action revolvers, chain guns, pump action shotguns, multi-barrel weapons, lasers, and more. None of these weapons are recoil-operated, but they are considered to be Semi Automatic (the game term) because of their rate of fire. It is thus reasonable, though sometimes confusing, to describe a double-action revolver as a semi automatic revolver for Shadowrun purposes.
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DuctShuiTengu
post May 24 2009, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 24 2009, 08:40 AM) *
A semi-automatic revolver isn't a double action revolver. A semi-automatic revolver is a semi-automatic revolver. A revolver that uses the force of recoil to spin the cylinder. They are very rare, but a few do exist, most prominently the Mateba Unica 6 and the Welby-Frosby.

I'm going to assume that the SA revolvers in SR are of this type, because there is no rule prohibiting one from modifying them for burst fire, which would only be possible with an actual semi-automatic mechanism.


The rules also allow modifying the two bolt-action rifles in Arsenal to burst fire or full-auto fire.
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Draco18s
post May 24 2009, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (DuctShuiTengu @ May 24 2009, 09:34 AM) *
The rules also allow modifying the two bolt-action rifles in Arsenal to burst fire or full-auto fire.


But they have a clip of 1. You'd never be able to take advantage of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(There's a 7P large caliber pistol I wanted to do the same thing to)
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Wounded Ronin
post May 24 2009, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (Kingboy @ May 24 2009, 01:39 AM) *
Does that come with an obligatory side of dance, painting, poetry and calligraphy as well?


Hmm. Yes, but only if by "dance", you mean "judo".
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kzt
post May 24 2009, 08:23 PM
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No, Kata.
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crash2029
post May 24 2009, 09:26 PM
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This is why when I write up my charsheets I write the skill as Pistols (autoloaders).
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Draco18s
post May 25 2009, 01:27 AM
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I generally do:

[firearm skill] ([actual name of the weapon I'm purchasing])

Why? Because I generally don't lose my weapons (never happened).
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overcannon
post May 25 2009, 02:01 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ May 23 2009, 03:55 AM) *
I have always read the semi-automatic speciality as meaning This pistol type


The funny thing is that the third picture on that page is a Holdout.
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Mäx
post May 25 2009, 02:25 AM
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QUOTE (overcannon @ May 25 2009, 05:01 AM) *
The funny thing is that the third picture on that page is a Holdout.

Don't you mean the fourth one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Jackstand
post May 25 2009, 03:03 AM
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In the case of the Semi-Automatics specialization, I find that it's much more likely to indicate to the type of gun rather than the mode of fire for three reasons:

1. All of the other specializations refer to types of guns, rather than firing modes.
2. There is only one singular Semi-Automatic mode of fire, so the use of the plural requires that it be something else.
3. Since it cannot refer to the firing mode, it is probable that this specialization works in the same way as the others.

I would also simply also allow specialization in Heavy or Light Pistols, since I take the listed specializations to be suggestions and in no way comprehensive.
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Muspellsheimr
post May 25 2009, 04:33 AM
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QUOTE (Jackstand @ May 24 2009, 09:03 PM) *
In the case of the Semi-Automatics specialization, I find that it's much more likely to indicate to the type of gun rather than the mode of fire for three reasons:

1. All of the other specializations refer to types of guns, rather than firing modes.

Which means nothing.
QUOTE
2. There is only one singular Semi-Automatic mode of fire, so the use of the plural requires that it be something else.

The plural 'Semi-Automatics' means Semi-Automatic Weapons, as in it applies to more than a single semi-auto weapon.
QUOTE
3. Since it cannot refer to the firing mode, it is probable that this specialization works in the same way as the others.

Bullshit. See above.



There is no game information for determining if a weapon is semi-auto or not, except for its firing mode. Thus, the semi-auto specialization applies based on the firing mode.
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Wounded Ronin
post May 25 2009, 04:37 AM
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QUOTE (kzt @ May 24 2009, 04:23 PM) *
No, Kata.


Pwnt!



By the way, today I participated in a steel shooting event using my Ruger. I don't feel that I did really well, and one thing that I recall as having been slightly difficult in the context of the mental and time pressure of the event was that double action (classic revolver style) trigger pull as the first pull, and then single action (classic semi auto) style trigger pull subsequently. The first few times I went through that I felt like it kind of threw my mental focus and was a bit jarring, again, in the context of some mental pressure.

So there you go, seperate skill groups, I guess.
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Mäx
post May 25 2009, 05:05 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 25 2009, 07:33 AM) *
Thus, the semi-auto specialization applies based on the firing mode.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
No, it's pretty damm obvious when looking at all the other weapon specializations that it applies based on weapon type.
I cann't understand how someone can arrive to any other conclusion.
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Zaranthan
post May 25 2009, 05:51 AM
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I'd understand being confused at first, since semi-auto isn't really a category of pistols. But, it's fairly obvious that "Taser," "Revolver," and "Holdout" are not firing modes. Concluding that the fourth specialization is somehow unique is just silly. Insisting that it is despite having people point how the differences is just needlessly argumentative, possibly to the point of trolling.
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Daishi
post May 25 2009, 06:09 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ May 24 2009, 11:05 PM) *
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
No, it's pretty damm obvious when looking at all the other weapon specializations that it applies based on weapon type.
I cann't understand how someone can arrive to any other conclusion.

Then I shall explain how it's very simple to arrive at the conclusion that the pistol specialization refers to firing rate. There is not a single weapon in Shadowrun 4 that is explicitly described as semi-automatic in terms of operation, only firing rate. The only time the term "Semi Automatic" is used in the core book that is not explicitly talking about firing rates is when discussing pistol specialization. There it is used ambiguously without providing any definition contrary to the firing rate usage present everywhere else. Furthermore, the only Single Shot pistols (as in, don't use SA firing rates) in the core book are Tasers, Holdouts and Revolvers - the other specialization options.

If a person did not know the technical definition of semi-automatic in the real world (a common scenario, even among gamers), their only reasonable conclusion from reading the SR4 core book would be that the Semi Automatic pistol specialization refers to the firing rate. One can combine a knowledge of real firearm operation and the lack of an explicit reference to firing rates when discussing Pistol specialization to infer that the intended meaning of the specialization was mode of operation, but there is no material support within the core book (or Arsenal for that matter) for that inference.
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Daishi
post May 25 2009, 06:27 AM
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QUOTE (Zaranthan @ May 24 2009, 11:51 PM) *
I'd understand being confused at first, since semi-auto isn't really a category of pistols. But, it's fairly obvious that "Taser," "Revolver," and "Holdout" are not firing modes. Concluding that the fourth specialization is somehow unique is just silly.

It's not that silly nor unique. The only pistols in the core rule book without a SA firing mode are Tasers, Holdouts, and Revolvers. It's peculiar and sloppy, but there would still appear to be a correlation between firing mode and specialization.
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overcannon
post May 25 2009, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ May 24 2009, 09:25 PM) *
Don't you mean the fourth one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


I must have missed the top one.
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crash2029
post May 25 2009, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 24 2009, 09:27 PM) *
I generally do:

[firearm skill] ([actual name of the weapon I'm purchasing])

Why? Because I generally don't lose my weapons (never happened).


Actually this happened to me once. We were playing Dreamchipper, and my face/thief Car was chasing Val/Cleo down the docks when she went into the drink. So Car dove in after her. Car then found that it is really hard to swim wearing a longcoat filled with gear, including his concealed holster and p-sec. He had to strip off the coat in order not to drown. He swam after her underneath the dock, where she surfaced on the other side. She was hauled out of the water by Car's teammates, followed by Car. Car remained conscious long enough to tell her she owed him another gun before he passed out.
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Wounded Ronin
post May 25 2009, 09:50 PM
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You're one of those people who doesn't tag Swimming when you start a game of Deus Ex, right?
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crash2029
post May 26 2009, 10:20 PM
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No, electronics, computer, and lockpicking.
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Kingboy
post May 27 2009, 12:35 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 24 2009, 02:59 PM) *
Hmm. Yes, but only if by "dance", you mean "judo".


Actually no, I meant dance. Pick your flavour, I don't care, but something that is done simply for recreational/aesthetic reasons with little to no martial applications outside of the general physical fitness effects.
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Jhaiisiin
post May 27 2009, 12:38 AM
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QUOTE (Writer @ May 21 2009, 05:08 PM) *
Take Pilot Aircraft, for example. The specializations include: Fixed-Wing, Lighter-Than-Air, Remote Operation, Rotary Wing, Tilt Wing, Vectored Thrust. Name one vehicle you can operate with "Remote Operation" that doesn't overlap with any of the other categories. If your skill is 4, and your specialization is Remote Operation, you can fly Fixed-Wing aircraft just fine with skill 4, but when you use Remote Operation, you really excel. If your specialization was Fixed-Wing, you would excel with Fixed-Wing, whether you were flying by Remote Operation or not.

I know this is really belated and somewhat off topic, but I have to object to this. Flying a fixed-wing aircraft personally and flying it by remote are *not* the same thing. I've flown both powered and unpowered aircraft before, and I can vouch that being physically in charge is so much more than piloting by remote.
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Wounded Ronin
post May 27 2009, 02:17 AM
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QUOTE (Kingboy @ May 26 2009, 07:35 PM) *
Actually no, I meant dance. Pick your flavour, I don't care, but something that is done simply for recreational/aesthetic reasons with little to no martial applications outside of the general physical fitness effects.


Let's see. There are more than one ways that I can respond to this, but since I played a Deus Ex mod yesterday I have to type them all in a list instead of only putting one.

1.) So, like that other poster said, kata. BURRRRNNN!
2.) Actually, you're probably right. Many people in the US are overweight, out of shape, and unweildly. If they all got plyometric exercise and stretching through dance, it would make us all better off.
3.) NAARG NOT VIOLENT ENOUGH!!!!
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Kingboy
post May 27 2009, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 26 2009, 10:17 PM) *
1.) So, like that other poster said, kata. BURRRRNNN!


Yes of course, because god knows nothing is effective in the world till we've rebranded every universal concept with some ill-fitting oriental name for it.
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Dumori
post May 27 2009, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE (Kingboy @ May 27 2009, 03:42 AM) *
Yes of course, because god knows nothing is effective in the world till we've rebranded every universal concept with some ill-fitting oriental name for it.

Amen
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post May 27 2009, 11:03 AM
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I hereby offer the final word on this topic, as follows.

Pistol specializations shall be in the type of operation they utilize, except when they are not.

There. Problem solved.

Maybe I should run for office someday...
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Writer
post May 27 2009, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ May 26 2009, 07:38 PM) *
I know this is really belated and somewhat off topic, but I have to object to this. Flying a fixed-wing aircraft personally and flying it by remote are *not* the same thing. I've flown both powered and unpowered aircraft before, and I can vouch that being physically in charge is so much more than piloting by remote.


I was referring to the Shadowrun game mechanics of skill specialization and how they can overlap. The skill I used as an example is Pilot Aircraft. This skill covers ANY aircraft. The specialization of "Remote Operation" gives a bonus to ANY remote operation of ANY aircraft, but does not confer a bonus to fixed wing aircraft if not remotely operated. However, the specialization Fixed Wing gives a bonus to ANY fixed wing aircraft, whether it is remotely operated or not, but does not confer any bonus to non-fixed-wing aircraft, remotely operated or not. There is an overlap here.

Comparing real life examples of physically flying an aircraft and remotely operating an aircraft to Shadowrun's abstraction of the Pilot Aircraft skill is merely silly. Sure, there are major differences between flying a fixed wing aircraft in person and remotely, but from what I have heard from various pilots, there is a larger gap between fixed wing and rotary wing and lighter than air aircraft. It is still all covered by one single little number, with an occasional specialization bonus.

I wasn't making a statement about real life skills. I was commenting on the game mechanics.
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Jhaiisiin
post May 27 2009, 05:44 PM
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Fair enough. It just seemed that we'd had 2 pages of people talking real life to justify the varied specializations of firearms. I took that as an opportunity to use real life experience of my own to comment on your example. My apologies for being "silly."
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kigmatzomat
post May 28 2009, 12:23 AM
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I think the point is that you haven't remote piloted an aircraft remotely via an infinite bandwidth wireless connection using VR using a direct neural connection so your experience with remote flight doesn't pertain to the SR-verse.
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Wounded Ronin
post May 28 2009, 12:26 AM
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QUOTE (Kingboy @ May 26 2009, 09:42 PM) *
Yes of course, because god knows nothing is effective in the world till we've rebranded every universal concept with some ill-fitting oriental name for it.


Pretty much. That's why your "sword" only does STR M damage or whatever it was, whereas the "katana" does STR + 3 M damage. That +3 appears when you start speaking Japanese.

It's also like in Oriental Adventures, where if you're a non-monk white man in a proto-European medieval kingdom trying to punch someone you do negligable amounts of damage, but if you're a non-monk asian man in an Oriental Adventures campaign with the "karate" skill your punches suddenly do 1d6 damage before STR bonuses. Which recall is similar to the damage a non-monk white man would only do if he were swinging a mace.

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post May 28 2009, 07:46 AM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ May 27 2009, 07:23 PM) *
I think the point is that you haven't remote piloted an aircraft remotely via an infinite bandwidth wireless connection using VR using a direct neural connection so your experience with remote flight doesn't pertain to the SR-verse.


My point was less about real life experiences and more about game mechanics. Even a VR interface would be different than physically flying a vehicle.
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Kerenshara
post Jun 3 2009, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 23 2009, 11:56 PM) *
I think that everybody should be trained and practiced in the operation of a variety of firearms. I also think that everybody should practice at least one combative sport. I think it would help everyone stay on the same page in life.


QUOTE (Kingboy @ May 24 2009, 12:39 AM) *
Does that come with an obligatory side of dance, painting, poetry and calligraphy as well?


In a word: yes. I think basic firearm safety should be a part of kindergarten and primary school, with proper handling, servicing and loading/unloading being conducted for both sidearms and longarms. In middle school, I would like to see mandatory firing line familiarization, and optional full service training with both types. Basic martial arts, if taught correctly, encourage good general fitness of body and mind, and I would encourage them fully. I see absolutely no reason that Kingboy's classes should not be at least offered as well. Well rounded young people become well rounded adults. We've tried to focus on the "three R's" and failed miserably. We educated our childern better when we made sure they were being raised as a more complete person, than making sure they were able to perform educational bulimia on command; We ask them to cram in information and regurgitate it on examinations without verifying retention or comprehension over the long term. I remember my own educational experiences vividly, and I know the advanced art/acting/music lessons I took helped broaden me in ways more hours of Politically Corrected history or oversimplified mathematics could ever have hoped to. Phillosophy, as a general investigation of the ideas, would be a wonderful thing as well, in my opinion if it could be made into more than a Christian Theological Indoctrination. Classes on logic, ethics and comparative sociology would dramatically improve the way Americans interract with the world at large but giving us an apperciation for other cultures and viewpoints, whether we agree with them or not. The lessons in handling firearms teach self-confidence and responsibility, and will help eliminate ignorance related firearm deaths without depriving people of their fundamental rights to defend themselves. Sorry, that's my rant.
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crash2029
post Jun 3 2009, 09:20 PM
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Hrm. In general I agree with you. I remember my public education vividly as well. I did horribly in school. There were a number of reasons why I had such a hard time. Probably the biggest proof that my trouble in school was not lack of intelligence or a learning disablilty was the fact that in 10th grade when we went on vacation for winter break I got a GED. I took the supposedly day-long test in less than 2 hours and did very well. Before my fellow 10th graders went back from vacation I had the equivalent of a diploma.

I agree that there should be more thorough and effective education for all in this country. I don't know about mandatory combat training, though. I would make it elective, but that is just me.
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Draco18s
post Jun 3 2009, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ Jun 3 2009, 04:20 PM) *
Probably the biggest proof that my trouble in school was not lack of intelligence or a learning disablilty was the fact that in 10th grade when we went on vacation for winter break I got a GED. I took the supposedly day-long test in less than 2 hours and did very well. Before my fellow 10th graders went back from vacation I had the equivalent of a diploma.


I did the same thing, but only because I was moving states. Didn't want to be in my senior year of highschool at a new school.

Though, not the GED, I took the CHSPE (California High School Proficiency Exam). You have to be 18 to take the GED, where as the HPE is the same thing for minors. In any case, I finished both sections before most other people, but the grade I got back was a pass/fail, so no idea how well I did (I passed).
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Kerenshara
post Jun 3 2009, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ Jun 3 2009, 04:20 PM) *
I agree that there should be more thorough and effective education for all in this country. I don't know about mandatory combat training, though. I would make it elective, but that is just me.

The shooting part would be optional beyond simple discharge, possibly with blanks for the skittish/objectors. I suppose you could always do the "opt-out" with parental consent but ... that takes a lot out of it if it's not universal knowledge. The handling part WOULD be mandatory as a safety issue, like a form of driver's ed. Only way out is to prove competency, so a parent could teach them personally and test out. I guess I can see how martial arts, even the very basics would be seen as "combat training", but given where I have seem parts of our society go, I'm not so sure that would be a BAD thing. I have taken people to the range and seen them find new confidence from the experience of having successfully handled and utilized a firearm time and again.

Besides, I personally find shooting to be theraputic and relaxing.
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crash2029
post Jun 4 2009, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 3 2009, 04:27 PM) *
I did the same thing, but only because I was moving states. Didn't want to be in my senior year of highschool at a new school.

Though, not the GED, I took the CHSPE (California High School Proficiency Exam). You have to be 18 to take the GED, where as the HPE is the same thing for minors. In any case, I finished both sections before most other people, but the grade I got back was a pass/fail, so no idea how well I did (I passed).


Maybe it varies by state. I took the GED when I was 16.
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Draco18s
post Jun 4 2009, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ Jun 4 2009, 03:27 PM) *
Maybe it varies by state. I took the GED when I was 16.


Possible.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jun 5 2009, 01:49 AM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jun 3 2009, 06:00 PM) *
The shooting part would be optional beyond simple discharge, possibly with blanks for the skittish/objectors. I suppose you could always do the "opt-out" with parental consent but ... that takes a lot out of it if it's not universal knowledge. The handling part WOULD be mandatory as a safety issue, like a form of driver's ed. Only way out is to prove competency, so a parent could teach them personally and test out. I guess I can see how martial arts, even the very basics would be seen as "combat training", but given where I have seem parts of our society go, I'm not so sure that would be a BAD thing. I have taken people to the range and seen them find new confidence from the experience of having successfully handled and utilized a firearm time and again.

Besides, I personally find shooting to be theraputic and relaxing.


I remember a lot of the student protestors from back when I was an undergrad who would have all kinds of fun going on about the "militarization of society". How they would gnash their teeth in fury. It would be so entertaining to watch, and they would be so easy to troll.

But, I think that if hypothetically everyone in the US had experience operating firearm, the gun control movment in its current form (i.e., ZOMG MAGIC OMNIPOTENT ASSAULT WEAPONS R SCARRRY!!!!) would completely evaporate since it seems to be based mostly around not knowing how firearms work. Not to say you wouldn't have people who wanted to control weapons more or less strictly by law, but I think that the debate would become more substantive and not revolving around the mythical and fabled "assault weapon". So basically we'd all be better off if for no other reason than knowledge would replace the rampant ignorance that normally characterizes this political wedge issue.

One of my favorite quotes, which sadly may be misquoted, is
QUOTE
“You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.�
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crash2029
post Jun 6 2009, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 4 2009, 09:49 PM) *
I remember a lot of the student protestors from back when I was an undergrad who would have all kinds of fun going on about the "militarization of society". How they would gnash their teeth in fury. It would be so entertaining to watch, and they would be so easy to troll.

But, I think that if hypothetically everyone in the US had experience operating firearm, the gun control movment in its current form (i.e., ZOMG MAGIC OMNIPOTENT ASSAULT WEAPONS R SCARRRY!!!!) would completely evaporate since it seems to be based mostly around not knowing how firearms work. Not to say you wouldn't have people who wanted to control weapons more or less strictly by law, but I think that the debate would become more substantive and not revolving around the mythical and fabled "assault weapon". So basically we'd all be better off if for no other reason than knowledge would replace the rampant ignorance that normally characterizes this political wedge issue.


Yesterday I had to explain to my grandparents the difference between semi-automatic, automatic, and assault weapons. I also explained that firearms, arguably, are no more dangerous than cars in careless hands. I assert that it is easier for the average American to kill more people easily with a car than a gun.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jun 6 2009, 02:26 AM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ Jun 5 2009, 07:19 PM) *
Yesterday I had to explain to my grandparents the difference between semi-automatic, automatic, and assault weapons. I also explained that firearms, arguably, are no more dangerous than cars in careless hands. I assert that it is easier for the average American to kill more people easily with a car than a gun.


Yes, but the classic response to that is "cars have utility in day to day life whereas firearms have none," because people who fantasize about firearms but who never use them basically think they're 1st edition D&D wands of magic missile. I think you're only going to move the debate in a more mature direction once people actually know from personal experience and skill what they're actually talking about.
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Jhaiisiin
post Jun 6 2009, 02:47 AM
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QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jun 3 2009, 02:54 PM) *
In a word: yes. I think basic firearm safety should be a part of kindergarten and primary school, with proper handling, servicing and loading/unloading being conducted for both sidearms and longarms. In middle school, I would like to see mandatory firing line familiarization, and optional full service training with both types. Basic martial arts, if taught correctly, encourage good general fitness of body and mind, and I would encourage them fully.

I humbly disagree with trying to teach or even show off firearms in school. Especially when sometimes even those giving the gun safety lectures shoot themselves.

I do however agree with the general tone of your post. Out country desperately needs to properly educate our youth. Between failed education programs, poor pay, and horrible government ideas, we're really on a downward slope.

I'm just awed that people still think the US is the center of the universe and innovation and education and technology. So many people have no clue just how far behind we are in so many fields. *shakes head* It doesn't help that many of our really successful citizens aren't reproducing because they're too busy focusing on their career, whereas the slum-locked trash families are producing kids by the handful. It's a hell of a spiral and it's not a good future we're heading towards.

Wow I tangented. I'll shaddap now.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jun 6 2009, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Jun 5 2009, 09:47 PM) *
I humbly disagree with trying to teach or even show off firearms in school. Especially when sometimes even those giving the gun safety lectures shoot themselves.


I read in a magazine about that incident. Apparently the man who shot himself was an undercover cop who would show up to public schools projecting his thug persona in order to appeal to the students while at the same time being able to guide them away from joining gangs. That wasn't a firearms safety presentation, as I understand it, so much as displaying the firearm to fit in with the badass persona, from which the anti gang spiel would proceed. Supposedly that cop had been involved in a number of operations and was quite seasoned, but his career has been ruined since that video hit the internet because now everyone knows that he is a cop.

My counter-argument about the firearms safety class was that the cop obviously was carrying his firearm concealed and ready to shoot with a round in the chamber. I believe that the firearm in question was a Glock .40 which also relies on grip safeties which are always active, as opposed to a manual safety where you'd flick a switch and be unable to fire. So basically I think that Glocks would be a bit more prone to accidental discharge than, say, a 1911 with the safety on, or any pistol where you'd walk around without a round in the chamber. According to Wikipedia, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock_pistol)

QUOTE
The Glock features a triple safety system that secures the firearm against accidental discharge and consists of three independent safety mechanisms: an external trigger safety[8] and two automatic internal safeties – a firing pin safety[9] and a drop safety.[10] The external safety is a small inner lever contained in the trigger. Pressing the lever activates the trigger bar and sheet metal connector. One of the internal safeties is a solid hardened steel pin that, in the secured state, blocks the firing pin channel (disabling the firing pin in its longitudinal axis). The firing pin safety is only pushed upward to release the firing pin for firing when the trigger is actuated and the safety is pushed up through the backward movement of the trigger bar, the second, drop safety guides the trigger bar in a precision safety ramp that is only released when a shot is triggered by pulling the trigger right back. The safeties are systematically disengaged one after another when the trigger is squeezed and then automatically re-activated when the trigger is released. Passive safeties allow the pistol to be carried with a cartridge in the chamber thus reducing the time required to deploy the pistol. This allows the user to concentrate on tactical considerations, rather than manipulation of levers, hammers or external safeties found in other, conventional handguns.[5]


So basically if you had a presentation on firearms safety rather than thug persona badassery don't-join-a-gang, that sort of accidental discharge shouldn't happen because you could carry your firearm totally unloaded and in a case, which is safer than carrying a firearm concealed in a manner where you could draw it and fire if you needed to. There's always a certain low but present risk of accident when you carry around a concealed firearm all the time.

Believe it or not, this is actually related to Shadowrun in my mind. Remember the 3rd edition Canon Companion, where they had a firearm modification "remove safety"? I always thought that was one heck of a silly modification. In the first place, if you really wanted to remove manual safties, you could just carry a Glock, where you'd have passive safties and it would still be a hell lot safer than running around with a round ready to go off in your pocket. Secondly, the risk of blowing your leg off when you used the crapper would so totally outweigh whatever advantages not having a safety would have, especially seeing as it's so simple and easy to simply train the muscle memory to turn off your safety before you fire.

I have seen a video on TV once where a jewelry shot proprietor gets shot because he and a robber draw on each other at the stame time, and the shop owner fails to disengage the safety. So basically in order for the no-safety thing to have helped you'd need to be some shop owner in New York City who never practices with the damn firearm because of the constraints of living in New York City. But IMO it would be pretty laughable for a professional shadowrunner to get any sort of benefit from not having a safety on his or her firearm. I thought it was a pretty contrived modification.

Wasn't there a quote attributed to some renaissance fencing instructor? "A man who carries a sword around with him without knowing how to use it is full as ridiculous as a man who carries books around with him without knowing how to read."
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crash2029
post Jun 6 2009, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 5 2009, 09:26 PM) *
Yes, but the classic response to that is "cars have utility in day to day life whereas firearms have none," because people who fantasize about firearms but who never use them basically think they're 1st edition D&D wands of magic missile. I think you're only going to move the debate in a more mature direction once people actually know from personal experience and skill what they're actually talking about.


Are you implying that I don't know what I'm talking about? If so then I would take offense. The fact that cars have day-to-day utility is kind of the point. My position that cars are more effective for the average American to kill with partly relies on the ubiquity of vehicles. It is far easier to get ahold of a vehicle quickly than a firearm. Additionally, if you hit someone with a car they are usually squished. To kill someone with a gun you need a gun, bullets, and either alot of luck or a modicum of skill. Many people who are shot with a single pistol-calibre round survive. Many people who are hit by a car don't.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jun 7 2009, 04:16 AM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ Jun 6 2009, 03:46 PM) *
Are you implying that I don't know what I'm talking about?


No, the internets are serious business so I try not to haphazardly imply stuff like that when I post.



Today I had an experience which makes me think that operating machine guns should perhaps be a different skill than the one that goes for rifles, while at the same time I believe that logically if you wanted to be more correct you could roll rifles, shotguns, and carbines all into one.

Today I broke down and basically got ripped off to fire 50 linked rounds through a M1919 Browning machinegun ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1919_Browning_machine_gun ) at an indoor range. It was funny because when I told the range staff I wanted to do that they stood around for a minute or two talking among themselves about how the hell they were going to move that thing into position and how they'd need two people and so on.

They laid out a little mattress on the floor so I could comfortably fire prone. I was amazed that even thoug the thing was on its little tripod, and was really heavy, it actually would move to the right every time I squeezed off a 3 round burst, and they had to re-adjust it. On the paper I was shooting at I could see the rounds clearly walking from left to right and upwards, just with these very conservative 3 round bursts I was squeezing off.

The experience was totally different than using a rifle, handgun, shotgun, or automatic rifle. The ergonomics of using that machine gun were totally different. There was no buttstock or trigger guard. The trigger was just sticking off the back all by itself. Just some teeny tiny crappy sights up top and since it was all set up with a tripod I didn't have to use my body to counter the recoil or anything like that. In spite of this I felt like it really bounced around and the smell of gunpowder was really thick in the air. It was physically easy to fire but comically imprecise and kind of having a mind of its own, from my brief experience with it.
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crash2029
post Jun 7 2009, 09:14 PM
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I apologize for being oversensitive.

If memory serves me machine guns are operated by the heavy weapon skill. To avoid the jumping around they used to use sandbags on the legs of the tripod.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jun 7 2009, 11:51 PM
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But seriously, though. You'd honestly need really big sandbags. That aren't squishy. I was like holy crap.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 8 2009, 12:24 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 7 2009, 04:51 PM) *
But seriously, though. You'd honestly need really big sandbags. That aren't squishy. I was like holy crap.


Yes, Machine guns are extremely fun, and DO require a bit of skill to utilize to their full extent... that is something that the untrained generally are not capable of doing in my experience... even in the Marine Corps, it takes some time for the Machine Gunners to gain proficiency with their weapons...

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crash2029
post Jun 8 2009, 08:12 PM
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Out of curiosity, do you know if it was the 1919A4?
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post Jun 8 2009, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 6 2009, 09:20 AM) *
I read in a magazine about that incident. Apparently the man who shot himself was an undercover cop who would show up to public schools projecting his thug persona in order to appeal to the students while at the same time being able to guide them away from joining gangs. That wasn't a firearms safety presentation, as I understand it, so much as displaying the firearm to fit in with the badass persona, from which the anti gang spiel would proceed. Supposedly that cop had been involved in a number of operations and was quite seasoned, but his career has been ruined since that video hit the internet because now everyone knows that he is a cop.

You didn't watch that video at all, did you? He's quite clearly wearing a kevlar vest that says POLICE on it. Hard to be undercover when you wear a vest that says POLICE and are giving a demonstration to a class, a number of whom could have gang ties.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jun 8 2009, 11:35 PM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ Jun 8 2009, 03:12 PM) *
Out of curiosity, do you know if it was the 1919A4?


No, I couldn't say. If I had to take a guess, I'd say it was probably one of the ones that was converted to 7.62 NATO for the Vietnam War, just because that is the most likely to have survived in fireable condition and made it into a gun store inventory today, as opposed to an actual World War I piece.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jun 8 2009, 11:38 PM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Jun 8 2009, 03:45 PM) *
You didn't watch that video at all, did you? He's quite clearly wearing a kevlar vest that says POLICE on it. Hard to be undercover when you wear a vest that says POLICE and are giving a demonstration to a class, a number of whom could have gang ties.


If you really want to score e-points on me I'll let you pretend that I clearly didn't watch the video. Have a nice day.
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post Jun 9 2009, 12:10 AM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Jun 5 2009, 09:47 PM) *
I humbly disagree with trying to teach or even show off firearms in school. Especially when sometimes even those giving the gun safety lectures shoot themselves.

Luckily, not a single driver's education teacher in the history of the world has ever been in a car accident!
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