So when it comes to pistols I'm normally pretty generic, either a Pred or Manhunter is fine by me. So I'm making a new character and a buddy of mine lends me Arsenal (great book btw) and I decide to check out some of the pistols in there and I realize I'm not sure what specializations will work with what guns.

So here is my problem, SR4 Specializations for pistols are Hold out, Taser, Semi-Automatic, and Revolvers. Tasers being their own specialization is fine by me, but what if a hold out pistol is also a revolver or a semi-auto? It seems like if you are going to have a class of weapons (Hold outs) be a specialization, you should also be able to specialize in other classes like the light pistol or the heavy pistol. What is the the Deputy? It's a revolver but it fires in semi-automatic mode. If I had to choose I'd say it would use the revolver specialization because its class is a 'revolver' but then what makes a gun a semi-auto? The Cavalier scout is a hold-out that in the text is listed as a semi-automatic pistol.


What specialization does the Ruger Thunderbolt use?


Do the specializations overlap? Would I be able to use my specialization in revolvers to fire off anything with (cy) in the ammo column even if it is a hold out or fires in semi-automatic mode?

I guess I can't seem to wrap my head around having being able to be specialized in a class of weapons or a particular firing mode. Perhaps it is just bad word choice on the part of the writers but it almost seems like the specializations would make more sense as : taser, hold-outs, light pistols, and heavy pistols. but then you'd just be setting up the specializations to read : "crap", "crap", "mega-crap", and "correct choice"

Can anyone illuminate me here? Am I totally off?

Well, I think you are spot on. It's not absolutely clear.

I would have all hold-outs (semi-auto or revolver or whatnot) under the hold-out specialization, all non-hold-out revolvers (regardless of their fire mode) under revolver, and everything else under semi-automatic (apart from tasers, of course, which are their own category).

The Thunderbolt would be in the SA category.

Bye
Thanee

That is how I was looking at it too, but it just seems so awkward to have specializations by class (Hold outs), firing mode (Semi-automatics), ammo storage type (cylinders), and then Ammo type(taser darts).


If this is the case why would anyone specialize revolvers? there are like 4 of 'em in core and arsenal combined O.o






EDIT Grammerz

Specialisation seems to be flexible.It doesn't matter when you want to Specialise in the
Cavalier deputy,You can take either Revolver or Semi-Auto
but If You also want to be very Good with the Ruger Super Warhawk you should take Revolver
And to why take a Revolver ? Look at the Enfield Merlin with its Ammo Skip System Its pretty Cool to have the needed Bullet in your Cylinder (Judge Dredd anyone ?)

JahaHey
Medicineman

I've always played it like so:

Holdouts are always "holdouts", regardless of firing mode or feeding method.

Tasers are always "tasers", regardless of firing mode or feeding method.

Anything that uses the recoil of the last shot to chamber the next is "semi-automatic". That means all magazine-loaded pistols, internal or external, that don't fall into the previous two categories.

Anything that doesn't is a revolver*. This isn't strictly accurate, but the weapons it encompasses (Sakura Fubuki, and that goofy single-shot pistol with a very Japanese name) need all the encouragement they can get.

*I assume the Deputy is a double-action, while the Warhawk is a single. This allows it to be fired with every pull of the trigger, like a semi-automatic, without being classified as one. In double-actions, the cylinder is rotated by the force of pulling the trigger.

We simply changed the possible specialisations to conform to the weapon types (ie: hold-out, heavy pistol, etc.).
All the other ranged combat skills work the same, we never got why pistols should be different.

Where is that, anyway? I can't find it in my copy of Arsenal.

I just make them overlap, and you can specalise in pretty much whatever short of 'badassery' because I don't care - and if you don't, specalisations like revolver are pretty crappy.

Your specialization is whatever you define it to be and agreed on with your GM. Limiting it to predefined choices limits your imagination, which limits fun.

Cause Revolvers are so cool-Do you feel lucky, Punk?

I did-with an NPC that had 2 revolvers, cyberarms and had them smartlinked (two seperate smartlinks-not in raw but I saw no reason they couldn't)), ambedextrous, hidden in his cyberarms that had the cyberslide).

Did I mention his modded ruger warhawks cost 8,000 each?

Man I need to get him back into the game......

But yeah-it does seem weird that pistols break out that way. I would think that they meant semi-autos as in APIV, colt manhunter and the like. SA covers just about every pistol except SS pistols of which there very few.

It's in the German Arsenal

Hough!
Medicineman

Well, tasers have a distinctly limited range. Their ballistics are going to be completely different by being more succeptible to wind, slower through the air so leading a moving target becomes a different proposition.

Semi-automatic operation weapons are a different proposition from cylinders in operations, loading and usually in firing. Revolvers have a diferent center of balance from an automatic, with their ammunition in front of the hand as opposed to inside the grip. Remember, one of the non-shooting things the skill is used for is quick draw, and revolvers handle diferently enough that they would be separate. Consider that a GM could also require a test for reloading under duress, and even with a speed loader, reloading a revolver is going to be completely different from inserting a box magazine.

It's pretty simple to distinguish the weapons: anything with a cylinder (Cy) is a revolver, size is irrelevant.

As to why, the most powerful pistol weapons damage-wise are revolvers. And for people whose marksmanship is low enough, taking the time to make the one shot count means the (usually) lower RoF of a revolver is largely mitigated. Plus, for anybody who's seen XXX with Vin Diesel realizes a revolver can slot as many diferent kinds of ammo as they have chambers. Add a smartgun link, and selecting among them is free. You can't do that with an auto. OK, and there's a matter of style, for those who are partial...

Every weapon has it's niche, if it didn't, it wouldn't exist any more.

The thunderhawk is a heavy pistol right? so you just have a pistol Spec in, Heavy Pistols,

Yeah it can be a bit confusing if you don't know much about guns.

The semi-auto specialization refers not to the fire rate (SS, SA, BF, FA) but rather to the operation of the weapon. Semi-autos, also known as autoloaders, typically have a detachable box magazin located in the grip. This is not a hard an fast rule but rather a common feature. For example the Steyr 1912, a well respected handgun, has an internal non-detachable magazine located in the grip. The Mauser military c/12, also known as the "Broomhandle Mauser" has an internal non-detachable magazine located forward of the trigger. The defining aspect of autoloaders, however, is that when the trigger is pulled the weapon discharges and another round is deposited in the chamber, ready to fire. The exact method by which the magazine is indexed varies by weapon, although the great majority of pistols use a variation on recoil operation, by which the recoil forces cause the the slide/bolt mechanism to retract allowing the spent casing to be ejected and a new round is pushed up by the springs in the magazine and fed into position in the chamber by the return stroke of the slide/bolt mechanism. It is worth noting that a few autoloaders rely on the gas-operation method common to automatic rifles. This method uses a "tap" in the barrel that redirects some of the propellant gases into pushing the slide/bolt mechanism thus indexing the magazine.

Revolvers use a much simpler and older system to operate. They have the ammunition radially spaced in a cylinder. The hammer is retracted usually by a thumb spur located on the rear of the weapon. The retraction of the hammer causes the cylinder to index. When the trigger is pulled the hammer is propelled via springs into the firing pin, thus discharging the weapon. Double-action revolvers have only a minor difference in their operation. In their operation the trigger pull is much longer as first it retracts, then releases the hammer. As before the retraction of the hammer indexes the cylinder.

In my opinion the specialization of hold-out is rather odd as the others are distinguished by method of operation while the only distingushment in hold-outs is their size and concealability.

cuz revolvers are COOL!!

really, its more of character concept for me. most get a ares predator. if I have certain twists, like based off a gunslinger or a cowboy character, then I go with the revolver. plus, the deputy holds 7 shots!!

real world--if a semi-automatic jams, it takes time to clear
revolvers don't jam. if thery misfire, just turn to the next cylinder

now lets put this in game mechanics:
the street sam fires his Ares Predator, rolling glitches. GM rules his gun jams & must take time to clear the weapon
the tribal warrior (yeah, that guy from 1st ED) fires his revolver, getting a glitch. GM rules misfire (bad round). simple action to rotate to next cylinder to keep firing, or free with smartlink

plus, depending on the people you are dealing with, they will either misjudge you thinking your PC is nuts for using a relic, or respect you because you don't need many bullets
hey, mel gibson laughed at danny glover in lethal weapon for using a 6 shooter. 1 shot, 1 kill I think is what danny said

if you watch SPIKE TV, they got this show called Deadlist Warrior. the other week they showed where the Mafia would chew through people with a double barrel sawed off shotgun. 2 bullets! think about it

Ugh, that makes my brain hurt. What if your semi-auto had a double action mode and a manual decocker? That is just like firing a revolver, at least on the first shot.

Holdouts are small enough that they would require a totally separate set of skills to manipulate, load and fire. Sure, it's point and pull the trigger, but I can tell you when I have fired some of the very small pistols, they take some getting used to. If they take getting used to, they would be a separate specialization for the reasons I mentioned above. It's not just putting rounds down range. There is loading, unloading, clearing, cleaning, repair, unjamming... on a weapon that small, it's not the same exact actions.

Specializations represent a high amount of familiarity and practice of one aspect of a skill over another. They are as much about flavor as statististics.

I would say the specializations overlap. If you want to focus on revolvers, you focus on revolvers, no matter what size. If you want to focus on small hold-outs, you will become familiar with some revolvers and some semi-automatics. Larger revolvers are still revolvers, but your focus is less on the type and more on the size. I see it as a game mechanic, not a hard category.

Take Pilot Aircraft, for example. The specializations include: Fixed-Wing, Lighter-Than-Air, Remote Operation, Rotary Wing, Tilt Wing, Vectored Thrust. Name one vehicle you can operate with "Remote Operation" that doesn't overlap with any of the other categories. If your skill is 4, and your specialization is Remote Operation, you can fly Fixed-Wing aircraft just fine with skill 4, but when you use Remote Operation, you really excel. If your specialization was Fixed-Wing, you would excel with Fixed-Wing, whether you were flying by Remote Operation or not.

Ugh, at that point it sound easier just to punch the enemy really hard.

Remember... specializations are w/ the approval of your GM.

And they're quite arbitrary... for example... you could specialize long-arms in 'pump action' w/ your GM's approval... that would apply to all pump action shotguns and rifles. While not applying to bolt-action or auto-loaders.

Similarly, you could specialize unarmed combat for defense.... you get to add 2 dice when defending against melee attack using unarmed no matter what the style. Or similarly, if you're some martial arts nut w/ a style.. specialize it in that style (and add it to both attack and defense, only when using that style).

Hold-out is nothing but a generic pidgeonhole. It simply refers to small low-capacity pistols of limited calibre (low damage) which are easily hidden (high concealability factor).

Do you hear me arguing?

*grins*

Hold-outs are wonderful for gunfights in a phone booth or a small boardroom. Beyond that, either run, take cover, or bring a more apropriate weapon. Unless it happens to be a "noisy cricket", in which case I recommend you brace yo'self!

The pistol skill covers the broad ability to use single handed, non-automatic bullet firing weapons. It covers all aspects of same. Specialization is really a focus, a representation of preference and familiarity. I don't know why most characters would consider hold-outs as a specialization, but tasers would make sense for non-lethally minded characters. And as I said before, revolvers are STILL the big bang in 2070. But most 'runners would be wise to take semi-automatics, because the majority of the weapons they will use on runs will fall into that category, and most will have a prefered default sidearm that falls into that category, giving justification for the specialization in the first place.

Ah. Okay, that seals it for me, you are quite correct. I think it would be safe to assume that the specializations do overlap, so a specialization in semi-autos would allow you to get the bonus for a Deputy, a semi-automatic revolver, but not for the Warhawk due to it being a single shot pistol. So if you wanted the heavy hitter pistols you'd go revolvers and sacrifice your available choices for guns, but the guns that you can choose from rock socks. Where as a specialization in semi-autos will give you a large variety of pistols, but nothing that stands out for damage like the warhawk.

Whilst I have spent time studying various firearms and associated technologies I unfortunately never had the opportunity to actually fire one. I would readily defer to one who has actually spent time on the range. It's kind of embarassing that as much as I love and study firearms I have never fired one. Ah, c'est la vie.

I owned a black powder revolver for a short time, and I have fired pistols a couple times, but I apparently don't give off the alpha male vibe to my friends, so they don't invite me to their gun outtings. A shame really, because I seem to be naturally good (not awesome, just good) with pistols.

Actually your wrong bro. The Deputy is not a semi-automatic. Granted, it has the SA firing rate (which stands for Single Action, not Semi-Automatic), but it is a revolver. Anything with 'cy' listed in the ammo is a revolver. Anything with 'c' listed in the ammo is a semi-automatic.

Incorrect.

SS = Single Shot.
SA = Semi-Automatic
BF = Burst Fire
FA = Full Auto


There is absolutely nothing indicating that if it is a revolver, it cannot be semi-auto. Further, there is nothing supporting the idea that a clip-loaded weapon is always semi-auto.

There are two definitions of semi-automatic at play in this discussion that do not completely overlap and that needs to be clearly acknowledged.

(1) A game mechanic firing rate
(2) A real world loading mechanism for firearms

The Deputy qualifies under (1) but not under (2).

Which meaning applies as a specialization? The inclusion of Revolvers as a category suggests (2) was the intention, but use of the specific game term "Semi Automatic" without any context has a precedence that leads (1) to be the stricter reading and more likely chosen option.

I have no disagreement with anyone who reads the rules and answers that (1) is the meaning of the specialization. As a rules lawyer, I would agree. However, that also makes the Semi Automatic specialization excessively expansive, especially when considering the low cost of a Firing Rate Mod that can bring the few non SA pistols under the purview of that specialization. As a remedy I would think it better to go one of two ways:

(a) Change the specialization list to match the pistol classification used in game (Holdout, Light, Heavy, Taser)
(b) Interpret the specialization list as by fluffy operation, not game mechanic.

Currently, I'm going with (b) which would place the Deputy (or a customized Warhawk) as a revolver only and not a semi automatic.

Or...

Even if a pistol is capable of Semi-Automatic fire, it is currently a Burst Fire weapon if you are using it to fire bursts - and as such, would not receive benefit of a SA specialization.

It is because of this that I rarely specialize in firing modes, instead using weapon category (I like having both SA & BF available).

I still have my 1860 Remington Army...differrentt from firing a modern double action for sure. Really though most of the skills used with firearms are highly transferable from on type (pistols) to another(rifles).

There are some ergonomic issues with holdouts and double action revolvers.

See, a holdout is generally so small that your pinky usually doesn't touch the grip. Some of them the ring finger isn't doing a lot either. That makes it much less stable in hand. Combined with the minimal barrel and you've got no sight picture. Recoil is magnified because a) the gun weighs a lot less and b) the afore mentioned grip issues. Plus, muzzleblast is a LOT closer to your hand.

The SA revolvers, properly double action revolvers, typically require a lot more work at the trigger. In an autoloader or single action revolver your trigger pull just drops the hammer. The DA revolver has the trigger pull rotate the barrel, pull back the hammer and drop it. That means the gun has torque and motion in two directions along the barrel axis prior to the round actually going off. All that adds up to a noticeably different shooting experience. I knew one guy who kept getting distracted by the motion of the cylinder (he was kinda OCD/ADD) and just couldn't use double actions with any skill.

Oh and recoil in revolvers can be a lot more interesting. A recoil-operated autoloader uses some of the energy to cycle rounds but the big difference is that the slide mechanism extends the recoil duration, lowering the peak experienced force. Revolvers don't have that slide to spread out recoil so there's a lot "sharper" feel to a revolver.

This comes from a shooter who's favorite "banger" is a CZ52 pistol. Oh, how that muzzle flash lights up a range!

I have always read the semi-automatic speciality as meaning This pistol type

Exactly. For best results, I have to quickly adjust my trigger finger between my first (double action) and second (single action) shot on my P97DC when I draw and fire two or more times.

Thank you for taking the time to craft this answer. It addresses some of whatI tried to but gives a better real-world example of why it might "feel" diferent enough to warrant a separate specialization. Wonderful!

Only BB guns, .22 rifles, and a black powder rifle (once) here. Good ol' boy scouts (now if only they'd kept Bee Keeping...)

I think that everybody should be trained and practiced in the operation of a variety of firearms. I also think that everybody should practice at least one combative sport. I think it would help everyone stay on the same page in life.

Does that come with an obligatory side of dance, painting, poetry and calligraphy as well?

I had calligraphy in elementary school.

A semi-automatic revolver isn't a double action revolver. A semi-automatic revolver is a semi-automatic revolver. A revolver that uses the force of recoil to spin the cylinder. They are very rare, but a few do exist, most prominently the Mateba Unica 6 and the Welby-Fosbery.

I'm going to assume that the SA revolvers in SR are of this type, because there is no rule prohibiting one from modifying them for burst fire, which would only be possible with an actual semi-automatic mechanism.

Semi Automatic (SA) the game term does not specifically mean a self-loading semi-automatic firearm. It just means the weapon may fire single rounds twice in the same Action Phase, regardless of the loading mechanism. Nothing more, nothing less. This usually entails a self-loading semi-automatic mechanism as described in the link (from which the game term inherits the name), but there are numerous exceptions. SA weapons can also include double-action revolvers, chain guns, pump action shotguns, multi-barrel weapons, lasers, and more. None of these weapons are recoil-operated, but they are considered to be Semi Automatic (the game term) because of their rate of fire. It is thus reasonable, though sometimes confusing, to describe a double-action revolver as a semi automatic revolver for Shadowrun purposes.

The rules also allow modifying the two bolt-action rifles in Arsenal to burst fire or full-auto fire.

But they have a clip of 1. You'd never be able to take advantage of it.
(There's a 7P large caliber pistol I wanted to do the same thing to)

Hmm. Yes, but only if by "dance", you mean "judo".

No, Kata.

This is why when I write up my charsheets I write the skill as Pistols (autoloaders).

I generally do:

[firearm skill] ([actual name of the weapon I'm purchasing])

Why? Because I generally don't lose my weapons (never happened).

The funny thing is that the third picture on that page is a Holdout.

Don't you mean the fourth one.

In the case of the Semi-Automatics specialization, I find that it's much more likely to indicate to the type of gun rather than the mode of fire for three reasons:

1. All of the other specializations refer to types of guns, rather than firing modes.
2. There is only one singular Semi-Automatic mode of fire, so the use of the plural requires that it be something else.
3. Since it cannot refer to the firing mode, it is probable that this specialization works in the same way as the others.

I would also simply also allow specialization in Heavy or Light Pistols, since I take the listed specializations to be suggestions and in no way comprehensive.

Which means nothing.

The plural 'Semi-Automatics' means Semi-Automatic Weapons, as in it applies to more than a single semi-auto weapon.

Bullshit. See above.



There is no game information for determining if a weapon is semi-auto or not, except for its firing mode. Thus, the semi-auto specialization applies based on the firing mode.

Pwnt!



By the way, today I participated in a steel shooting event using my Ruger. I don't feel that I did really well, and one thing that I recall as having been slightly difficult in the context of the mental and time pressure of the event was that double action (classic revolver style) trigger pull as the first pull, and then single action (classic semi auto) style trigger pull subsequently. The first few times I went through that I felt like it kind of threw my mental focus and was a bit jarring, again, in the context of some mental pressure.

So there you go, seperate skill groups, I guess.