Ghouls: Do you tolerate them? Options

[Fuchs]

Given that a touch from a ghoul is enough to transform you in a ghoul (unless you regularily can roll 24 dices without a medkit in a body test), I am wondering who among you has characters, PCs and NPCs alike, tolerate ghouls near them. Working, living near them, maybe even with them.

[Backgammon]

No. They live in sewers, where they belong.

[Fuchs]

ok, so maybe leper would be more correct, from back when they had no clue what so ever how it was transmitted...

thing is that public perception of something, and the medical perception can vary wildly, for any number of reasons...

sure, the ghoul is a person, but at the same time a walking infection. while i may not be socially acceptable to shoot on sight, they will probably be shunned and isolated, lone star calling medical to move them to special places when reported outside of z-zones and so on...

And what do you do if it comes toward you, and won't stop? Can you shoot it to defend yourself?

[CodeBreaker]

And what do you do if it comes toward you, and won't stop? Can you shoot it to defend yourself?

Damn right I will shoot. As far as I am aware there is still a bounty on Ghouls in the UCAS. Sure the Corporate Courts consider them sentient and capable of having rights, but that doesnt mean squat if you are on UCAS territory. And what are the chances of a Ghoul having a SIN? Noone will care if it kicks the bucket, hell I would probably be thanked by the local 'Star for helping keep the infection down.

Ghouls are dangerous walking biohazards, any transfer of bodily fluids (By fluff, I know RAW rules Contact contageon, but as a GM I would rule that it has the same transferability as lets say, AIDs. i.e the most likely chance of transfer is exchange of bodily fluids.) is a potential death sentance to me. Gotta bring it down before I get myself infected.

[CodeBreaker]

D-D-D-Double Post!

[knasser]

I was just going to make a splinter thread, following Bulls Mod post, but you beat me to it. Shall we keep it altogether as both rules and fluff threads will inevitably converge and start repeating each other?

Shall we link back to the original thread for posterity?

Presuming that's okay, I'm going to reply to AH, here.

No, there's no damage. You're just reducing the power - you fail, Essence loss.

I understood that. I was just using "DV" because that was used in the toxin rules. My mistake. Anyway, to bring the rules together Fuch's concern about how this affects cannon, it does pretty much mean that ghouls have a super-high infection rate.

No anti-HMHVV antivirals work anyway, so the -6 on the penetration just applies against protective gear.

I'm not sure how protective gear should work in this case. If you've been infected, I can't see that keeping your biohazard suit on day after day will continue to have an effect. As regards the following:

Cure Disease still works, and a Dwarf's innate resistance, and the adept Natural Immunity power, , as does any sort of drug or 'ware that boosts Body directly. You have to fail ten tests and lose 1.0 Essence to become a ghoul - so one brush with infection need not be immediately character-ending.

The average person with a Body of 2 or 3, could never succeed at this. In fact, anyone with a Body of less than 8 can never succeed. I'm going to disregard Dwarves and Adept Powers as minority cases - correct and useful to know, but irrelevant to the general case I'm interested in. Cure Disease is interesting. Again, it's not likely to help much. For a start, it has a drain value of disease DV -2, so the magician is taking 6DV each time they cast it. I suppose you could put it on a sustaining focus to keep it going. You still only get an extra dice for every hit on the sorcery test however, so even with a powerful mage casting, you'll probably only get four extra dice, maybe five. That's probably not enough to stop you turning into a ghoul. You don't need to have 24 dice to score eight hits if you get ten attempts. But you still need around... (checks calculator) around 10 Body to have a fifty:fifty chance of not becoming a ghoul. And that's with a pretty powerful magician casting a sustained Cure Disease on you.

Basically, this backs up Fuch's point that Ghouls are incredibly contagious if you let them get close to you. Which brings us on to the following:

This is generally why one wants to shoot ghouls /from a distance/. With fire. So that the smoke from the burning bodies goes downwind. Preferably in the direction of unnecessary people.

The question is why anyone would want to do anything other than what you suggest? By cannon, ghouls have become a little more accepted over the years. This level of virulence undermines it a bit.

Although on the other side, you do have to have contacted with infected material which doesn't just mean a ghoul claps you on the back in a friendly manner. It means, blood, saliva or sexual fluids, I would guess. The "contact" in the disease vector refers to contact with these rather than the entire infected person, I presume? That should at least assuage some of Fuch's objections. Though it still seems pretty potent to me. Those "unnecessary people" you refer to may come back to bite you if they're infected.

It certainly has a very serious impact on the rules for PC ghouls.

[Garwllwyd]

I'm with Codebreaker: HMHVV is comparable to, say, AIDS. True, I wouldn't necessarily shun any sort of association with an AIDS patient (although I'd watch myself) but HMHVV has the added drawback of creating a dangerous predator. The truly feral ones, like ghouls and loup-garoux and dzoo-noo-quas, would probably be shot on sight in the SR world, as they usually are. The other HMHVV infected, like vampires and nosferatu, would probably be OK to associate with for a bit, as in a meet or something, but not run with on a regular basis. Now if some corp were to discover a way to suppress the animalistic nature of, and/or preserve the intelligence of, HMHVV-infected, then we'd talk. As for now, I'd keep them in the NPC realm.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

There are some things to note, though:

First and foremost, the general disease rules can be read so making the first test keeps the disease from taking any effect - only if not making it, subsequent tests are needed.

If subsequent test are needed, however, the remaining Power accumulates... and you aren't healed until the minimum tests have passed and the Power then is reduzed to nothing. That means that most people will need to make much mure than just the minimum 10 tests, to get the Power to 0.

And thus, the world is populated by ghouls.


Now, for the loophole after the fact for player characters, but pretty much no-one else:

Technically, you best option is not to worry about it for the 9 first days. Make tests, lose 0.9 Points of Essence.
At the 10th day, the Power most likely has accumulated to insane levels... so you burn a point of Edge to exceptionally succeed at that test. It's the tenth test, thus the minimum tests have passed - and the Power is at 0 with 4 hits to spare.
Revitasation won't get you the lost essence back, though - but it doesn't need to: It's essence loss by a disease, so that is treated by Cellular Repair.


Then again, you are better off abusing the loophole you can use in advance. Or by ignoring this insane retcon.

[Fuchs]

Then again, you are better off abusing the loophole you can use in advance. Or by ignoring this insane retcon.

I'd advocate the latter.

[DuctShuiTengu]

The average person with a Body of 2 or 3, could never succeed at this. In fact, anyone with a Body of less than 8 can never succeed. I'm going to disregard Dwarves and Adept Powers as minority cases - correct and useful to know, but irrelevant to the general case I'm interested in. Cure Disease is interesting. Again, it's not likely to help much. For a start, it has a drain value of disease DV -2, so the magician is taking 6DV each time they cast it. I suppose you could put it on a sustaining focus to keep it going. You still only get an extra dice for every hit on the sorcery test however, so even with a powerful mage casting, you'll probably only get four extra dice, maybe five. That's probably not enough to stop you turning into a ghoul. You don't need to have 24 dice to score eight hits if you get ten attempts. But you still need around... (checks calculator) around 10 Body to have a fifty:fifty chance of not becoming a ghoul. And that's with a pretty powerful magician casting a sustained Cure Disease on you.

Actually, it's worse than that. Much worse.

If the pathogen’s Power is not reduced to zero, it is added to the pathogen’s Power when rolling the next subsequent Disease Resistance Test. This accumulation continues only for a number of resistance tests as listed in parentheses after the Speed in the pathogen description. After the minimum number of tests have been made, the infection has peaked, and Power will no longer accumulate. The effects of the disease will continue until subsequent resistance tests finally reduce its Power to zero.

So, while 10 dice may be enough to give you better than even odds of succeeding at one Threshold 8 roll in 10 attempts, that's not good enough by a long shot. Let's suppose that on your first roll, you get slightly above average results with your (very impressive) 10 dice. That leaves you 4 short, so your second attempt is against a threshold of 12. Your second roll, you actually get lucky and manage all hits (odds are roughly 60,000 to 1 against this). It's still not enough to avoid losing essence, but it at least means youäre back down to a threshold of 10 for your next roll. Except that this one is a bad roll, 0 hits. Over-all, you've managed fairly well so far (14 hits on 30 dice, average is 10) but not only haven't you managed to succeed at a single roll, the disease's power is up to 18 for your 4th roll. To get the disease's power back down to a level where you can succeed on the 10th roll (the last one within the minimum duration, and the absolute latest that you can succeed and have it mean you're not a ghoul at the end of this), you're going to need 48 hits over rolls 4-9 (averaging 8 per roll), just to be in a position to be able to avoid becoming a ghoul if you can again manage all hits on that last roll. And even if you manage to roll well and make the first couple, you're still likely looking at power accumulating enough over the remainder of the minimum duration that you end up succumbing on day 11 (or 12) instead of day 10.

Because of this, even the 24 dice needed to have 8 hits be an average result isn't really a reliable protection against being infected, a low roll makes it that much more likely that you'll come up short on the next one as well (which, in turn, worsens your odds for the one after that). To really feel safe against HMHVVIII, you need something closer to the 32 dice needed to just buy 8 hits so that you aren't facing the prospect of an unlucky roll cascading into an impossibly high Power on the following ones.

[CodeBreaker]

Or you could avoid coming into contact with the slavering, corpse eating crazies who are basically infected with Awakened Rabies?

[Fuchs]

Or you could avoid coming into contact with the slavering, corpse eating crazies who are basically infected with Awakened Rabies?

But according to canon you shouldn't shoot them on sight. Only in "your little world" you can do that, and devs are glad that's the case.

[Ancient History]

I'm going to avoid overquoting and try to address the key issue:

Fuchs is incorrect. You do not need 24 dice per test, ten times in a row. You need 8 hits per test, ten times in a row. Obviously he was thinking about cashing 4 dice in for an automatic hit (in which case his math is a bit off, but hey); this is only one way to handle it. For a normal person, this would necessitate a lot of luck, immediate medical diagnosis, and probably magical intervention (either the application of multiple Cure Disease spells or the Rock Lizard Blood magical compound - possession might work too).

Yes, ghouls have been made much more virulent. This was on purpose, to make them less of a joke-critter, which is what they were before. Call it "Our Ghouls Are Different." Yes, the time the disease takes to run its course is severely reduced - this was a decision that came down on high, and if you don't like it I'm sorry. Feel free to blame me if you have to blame anyone.

[Fuchs]

I'm going to avoid overquoting and try to address the key issue:

Fuchs is incorrect. You do not need 24 dice per test, ten times in a row. You need 8 hits per test, ten times in a row. Obviously he was thinking about cashing 4 dice in for an automatic hit (in which case his math is a bit off, but hey); this is only one way to handle it. For a normal person, this would necessitate a lot of luck, immediate medical diagnosis, and probably magical intervention (either the application of multiple Cure Disease spells or the Rock Lizard Blood magical compound - possession might work too).

Yes, ghouls have been made much more virulent. This was on purpose, to make them less of a joke-critter, which is what they were before. Call it "Our Ghouls Are Different." Yes, the time the disease takes to run its course is severely reduced - this was a decision that came down on high, and if you don't like it I'm sorry. Feel free to blame me if you have to blame anyone.

Uh, nope. I was thinking of basic probability. To get 8 hits of 5 or 6 you need three times the number on average, since 1/3 of all dice will be 5 or 6s. lease do not assume I can't multiply 8 and 4 - which would net 32, not 24.

And the decison to make them more of a danger is one thing - but making them more accepted at the same time simply doesn't fit. The fact that a normal person ends up a ghoul is the reason why I asusme any sane one would shoot at ghouls on sight. Not let them get rights.

[CodeBreaker]

But according to canon you shouldn't shoot them on sight. Only in "your little world" you can do that, and devs are glad that's the case.

As far as I am aware canon only states that the *corps* should not shoot them on sight. And even then I dont imagine they actually take any care not too. Isn't this the entire reason that the Barrens exist? To keep all the nasty nasty Ghouls in, and all the loyal Citizens disease free? I mean, if I remember correctly, Redmond is basically one giant walled off hellhole, and to leave Redmond you need to either go past a checkpoint or through to no doubt electricuted and drone watched fence.

[Ancient History]

Part of the reason is the large number of Born Infected - ghouls et al. who were born that way and don't actually carry the disease. Actually tried to make that standard for PCs but it got vetoed. (We also tried to get some explicitly anti-HMHVV meds in, but it didn't take - oh well, maybe later).

Ghouls-as-people goes back at least as far as Bug City, so don't lay that one at my door. Draw parallels to lepers or any other horrible, highly contagious disease we don't have a cure for yet.

Remember: me freelancer, not dev. I have only a limited amount of creative control which can and sometimes is overruled at a moment's notice. If I had to do it over again, I might have changed the vector to Injected instead of Contact, but it might have been changed anyway. Such is life.

[Fuchs]

And how does one spot the difference between a born infected and an infected infected, aka, how does one spot a carrier?

[Ancient History]

Blood test.

[Fuchs]

Blood test.

That's rather hard to do when one sees a ghoul, and has to decide whether or not to shoot it before it infects anyone.

[Ancient History]

Yep. Such is life in the Sixth World. Undoubtedly someone is working on that somewhere.

[CodeBreaker]

That's rather hard to do when one sees a ghoul, and has to decide whether or not to shoot it before it infects anyone.

Indeed it is. Such a shame, sometimes a nice Ghoul gets shot.

[Fuchs]

Yep. Such is life in the Sixth World. Undoubtedly someone is working on that somewhere.

Such is the life in "my little world". Apparently, in the 6th world, people consider ghouls just another person, and would not think of shooting them just for being virulent disease carrying cannibals. And everyone is working on making them officially people.

[PirateChef]

Such is the life in "my little world". Apparently, in the 6th world, people consider ghouls just another person, and would not think of shooting them just for being virulent disease carrying cannibals. And everyone is working on making them officially people.

I think it comes down to how the thing is acting. If it acts like a ravenous monster, I shoot it. If it approaches normally and talks to me about the weather, not so much.

That being said, I'm not sitting next to one.

[Fuchs]

I think it comes down to how the thing is acting. If it acts like a ravenous monster, I shoot it. If it approaches normally and talks to me about the weather, not so much.

That being said, I'm not sitting next to one.

It approaches you normally... but it's now close enough so it could easily touch you... or spit on you... or attack. It's still talking about the weather, but what if that's just a ruse? And the stench... but it does nothing,. But it could. Maybe without wanting to, a little stumbling, a sneeze, a cough... and what if others think you are infected? Your family?

[Fuchs]

RW, p.64: "There are 35 countries in the world that recognize the Infected as something other than wild animals which need to be controlled. Ours is not one of those countries, and neither is the UCAS. Both still carry laws on the books establishing bounties for the Infected, though those laws are seldom enforced these days. Many Infected are eligible to acquire criminal SINs and live as second-class citizens, at the expense of being monitored 24 hours a day. Ghouls have made enormous headway in the UCAS in search of their civil rights, but technically they could still be killed for the bounty. This is beginning to change, as some groundbreaking legislation has been introduced in the UCAS Senate to strike down the bounties on ghouls and loup-garou and offer them a path to citizenship. Similar legislation is expected in the CAS sometime this year."

RW, p. 67: "The loup-garou is a human Infected with HMHVV II. After the virus has run its course, the host is considerably changed. His body is covered in short, gray-black fur. The lips are drawn back, revealing sharper teeth with pronounced canines. The fingernails lengthen and harden into claws. Transformation into a loup-garou is particularly brutal; the trauma often but not always causes significant reduction in intellectual ability. It lives as a scavenger most of the time, save for a peak period of four to six days out of every twenty-eight when it becomes a ravening monster, attacking and killing any creature it can."

/boggle

[PirateChef]

It approaches you normally... but it's now close enough so it could easily touch you... or spit on you... or attack. It's still talking about the weather, but what if that's just a ruse? And the stench... but it does nothing,. But it could. Maybe without wanting to, a little stumbling, a sneeze, a cough... and what if others think you are infected? Your family?

Like I said, if it approaches normally I ignore it. But if it gets within lunging distance, I move to keep the space there. I don't let people get that close to me in RL unless I know them, why would any sane Shadowrunner? And if it has the mental capacity to talk to me about the weather as a ruse to get close enough to kill me, the fact that it's a ghoul doesn't matter, it's trying to kill me anyway. I don't think Ghouls feel the need to go around spitting on people in order to infect them.

[Knight Saber]

Maybe it's not a retcon, but a new development? The rising mana level has empowered the virus, making it more powerful and virulent than before? Ghouls have just started to make progress in being seen as people instead of beasts and then WHAM, this happens and things start to slide back. Pro and anti-ghoul rights people come into conflict on the streets, infections start spreading... Could be an interesting setup.

[BishopMcQ]

Fuchs--There is a Bounty Listing for the CAS and UCAS for all types of Infected in Running Wild, so you can KoS and get paid. Just avoid doing that in say...Asamando.

I know about the bounty, but the book also states that law hasn't been enforced in some time. And why not doing that in Asamando? In my game, that's a hellhole filled with monsters, nothing like the utopia depicted in Feral Cities.

To answer your question from the other thread, don't kill them in Asamando because it is one of the nations that acknowledges ghoul rights. There instead of killing a flesh-eating monster, you will have committed murder. I'm not calling it utopia, but I am saying that the Kill on Sight mentality will get you into a lot more trouble in certain nations. Be prepared and understand the choices, if you still kill them, that's up to you, it's not for me to judge.

Edit: the timestamps are caused by our drastically different time zones.

[Warlordtheft]

Yep. Such is life in the Sixth World. Undoubtedly someone is working on that somewhere.

Would pointing a gun at it and then it deciding to negiate or attack be a way to tell? If it negotiates it is sentient and you're able to deal with it and not blow it way like on night of the living dead (hey maybe you want to send them your dead, you come up with a reason). Though there would be a significant ick factor, and your noteriety would take a hit.

[Warlordtheft]

I know about the bounty, but the book also states that law hasn't been enforced in some time. And why not doing that in Asamando? In my game, that's a hellhole filled with monsters, nothing like the utopia depicted in Feral Cities.
To answer your question from the other thread, don't kill them in Asamando because it is one of the nations that acknowledges ghoul rights. There instead of killing a flesh-eating monster, you will have committed murder.

Now the fact that in Asmondo-is led by a ghoul. Ghoul does not mean stupid monster. (Some are, but she is breeding that line out). Now packs of the feral ghouls would at best be used for slave labor. An interesting side note-no one want's to fight Asmondo-especially mercs. Would you want to fight an entire army that sees you as its next nukkit burger?

As per canon it is one of the mmore stable African countries.

[Bull]

I have two things to add...

First, I view Ghouls in Shadowrun much the same way as they are portrayed in the Fallout games. A lot of them are monsters, either mindless, ravening beasts that have given over to their hunger, or they're just evil, enjoying their life and preying on humanity (I consider most of these to be relativly insane on some level or another).

But there are those that still retain their full intellect, their sanity, and their humanity (such as it is). These are fully capable of interacting with normal society (for the most part) and try their best to find ways around their "condition", and view it as a curse. I'm sure somewhere on the Matrix 20-something girls write bad semi-erotic fanfic about how tragic and noble they are, and occasinally in this fanfic they probably twinkle and sparkle in the sunlight. Or something (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Second, during Bull's original 6 year campaign, we started off in Chicago before Bug City came out, and eventually built up to that event. Bug City was one of the first sourcebooks to really start dealing with the Ghouls on any major level, and they ended up playing a big part in our home campaign. THey were a MAJOR ally, and a big source of information, gear, and whatever else once the walls went up, since as dual natured creatures, they were better equipped to fight the bugs than a lot of the "normal" folks in the CZ. Helping the Ghouls was a small focus of our game after we got out of the CZ even.

<shrug>

There's a lot of ways to play the game, and frankly, a lot of characters in the Canon SR world fully agree with Fuchs' take on the ghouls. And it's a perfectly valid way to run them in your games if you like.

Personally, I view Vampires much the same way, but that's my own personal bias against the bleeders in RL spilling into my game. If I could find a good reason to put Elves into the same category, I probably would (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bull

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Maybe it's not a retcon, but a new development? The rising mana level has empowered the virus, making it more powerful and virulent than before?

That's why I said that Running Wild makes the retcon official: It changend history.

[BishopMcQ]

Rotbart--How does a new development change history? Knight seems to be suggesting that the rules have changed due to a rise in mana on a recent scale, not an undoing of the past.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Because that's exactly what Running Wild does: It rewrites history. Plain and simple.

The funny thing is that it even goes as far as to claim that KHMHVV is nearly immune to healing magic... just it doesn't have that property. It's pretty messed up.

[The Jake]

There is no way making Kreiger strain of HMHVV more virulent would in any way aid their integration into society.

I haven't read Running Wild but this will make ghouls more like zombies out of 28 Days Later. I'm inclined to agree with Fuchs interpretation.

Right now, I have a ghoul NPC cybersurgeon who runs a shadow clinic that my PCs use. Under this re-write, there is no way any sane person would use him as a doctor for fear of Infection.

How the hell am I supposed to retcon that? There's only so much I can write off as 'increasing mana levels'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

- J.

[Falconer]

What you haven't played Left4Dead yet?! (That's the only effect I can see from ghouls in a city... with that level of virulence... only thing left being the immune/carriers).

It's time... and I agree w/ the original poster... with this, it's now open season on ghouls.

You can't make the disease that virulent without turning it into a plague. And plagues tend to be one of the few things which wakes the slumbering masses and activates their survival instinct.

It'd be assault for a ghoul to even come close to someone, which means no interactions or some kind of ghetto which no one enters at the very least.

[Kronk2]

No.

[Bull]

Umm, don't you still need to get bitten, or whatever, to get infected? And again, Ghouls are, generally, intelligent creatures. They need to eat flesh, but that doesn't mean they want to. And the ones that do are much like your classic Vampires... most don't allow someone to turn. They kill them instead for food.

<shrug>

Even with the new rules, I don't see this as the new VITUS. There might be small outbreaks due to feral ghouls (Or just asshole ghouls), but these would likely quickly get contained. Probably by the segment of the ghoul population that DOESN'T want to get hunted out of extinction.

[Fuchs]

Umm, don't you still need to get bitten, or whatever, to get infected? And again, Ghouls are, generally, intelligent creatures. They need to eat flesh, but that doesn't mean they want to. And the ones that do are much like your classic Vampires... most don't allow someone to turn. They kill them instead for food.

<shrug>

Even with the new rules, I don't see this as the new VITUS. There might be small outbreaks due to feral ghouls (Or just asshole ghouls), but these would likely quickly get contained. Probably by the segment of the ghoul population that DOESN'T want to get hunted out of extinction.

Contact vector, bull. And pardon me, but your idea of ghouls containing ghouls is rather... naive. If ghouls existed today I can guarantee you that they'd not be left to polive themsevels, they'd be exiled to some island at best, and shot on sight elsewhere if they look like they might even be thinking of doing anyhting but waiting on the spot for the deportation team in hazmat suits. It's not aids, it's the black death spread by touch and no vaccine is working.

[The Jake]

Bull, what Fuchs is saying is that Running Wild retconned HMHVV so that it is not only harder to resist but spreads via Contact, not Injection like you, I and every sane person would run it. With not even a weak vaccine that could be applied (only magic) this would compound the problem exponentially. Fuchs point about it being comparible to the Black Death is spot on. At least I am getting some ideas for a racist, pro human political party coming to power - something analgous to the New Revolution or Nazis.

I haven't got the book btw, just going by what I'm reading here.

- J.

[Bull]

Ahh, well, obviously, I don't have the book myself.

And that's just stupid. So, while i'll keep the virulancy, I'll porbably drop the contact bit.

[Fuchs]

Bull, what Fuchs is saying is that Running Wild retconned HMHVV so that it is not only harder to resist but spreads via Contact, not Injection like you, I and every sane person would run it. With not even a weak vaccine that could be applied (only magic) this would compound the problem exponentially. Fuchs point about it being comparible to the Black Death is spot on. At least I am getting some ideas for a racist, pro human political party coming to power - something analgous to the New Revolution or Nazis.

Not even magic works well:

Cure Disease
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: P • DV: (Disease DV) – 2
This spell is used at any point after infection to help a patient overcome
illness. The infected character receives a number of additional dice on
her Disease Resistance Test equal to the spell’s net hits. It does not
heal any damage already inflicted by the disease (that takes a separate
Healing spell).

So, to reliably beat the infection, how many hits do you need to have enough bonus dice to fight off the disease? You need 8 hits on the test with body. How many NPCs would manage to fight off an infection even with a mage of high power?

[HappyDaze]

That 8 neds to be reduced to something more reasonable, like a 4. Reducing the Penetration down would work well too. And get the damn thing back to Injection.

[BishopMcQ]

Contact Vector requires skin to skin contact and Chemical seal offers complete protection (unaffected by Penetration). (Augmentation 129).

Now, Ghouls are visibly different from everyone else--they smell due to their diet, milky white eyes, sallow complexion, etc. If one of them is walking through the mall, you can bet that people will notice. Building on that, ghouls know that all it takes is one asshole with a gun to ruin their day and the worst thing that would happen to the perp is maybe being charged with discharging a firearm in public. Meanwhile, the ghoul is dead...

There are a lot of reasons for ghouls to live on the fringes of society--they live in the Redmond Barrens, Aurora Warrens, or in the CZ. I've never seen a reference to a family of ghouls living in Bellevue. Are ghouls scary? They are fucking terrifying if you get caught in a dark alley with one, Are they going to take over the world? Not today.

I'm curious why the sudden idea of ghouls taking over the world started now though. The disease entries are listed in Runners Companion, so they have been out here for a year. Did people not notice, was there something in the RW text that suddenly pushed the button, is this a rehashing of an argument I missed a year ago, something else?

[Fuchs]

There are reports of ghouls visiting restaurants and other classy places thanks to disguises - check the Jackpointer Hannibelle.

And both Rotbart and myself argued against such stuff back when the Ghoul Utopia was introduced already.

[hobgoblin]

any ghoul tricky enough to sneak into such a place probably have the smarts to go long sleeves, gloves and face mask of some sort.

and if one think the face mask part is odd, take a look at present day tokyo for instance...

as for shoot on sight vs stop to talk, one aspect to consider is that at least anyone but the sinless will have access to a comlink, so asking for directions or the time of day will no longer be a common event...

[The Jake]

Contact Vector requires skin to skin contact and Chemical seal offers complete protection (unaffected by Penetration). (Augmentation 129).

...

I'm curious why the sudden idea of ghouls taking over the world started now though. The disease entries are listed in Runners Companion, so they have been out here for a year. Did people not notice, was there something in the RW text that suddenly pushed the button, is this a rehashing of an argument I missed a year ago, something else?

I think it changed when HMHVV became Contact based...

- J.

EDIT: At least based on my reading of this thread that is.

[Bull]

I think it changed when HMHVV became Contact based...

- J.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that change. Since I haven't been playing a whole lot of Shadowrun, nor am I a fan of the HMHVV races (and hence haven't read the Runners Companion rules for 'em), I really wasn't aware that it had changed...

I think that's something I'll houserule out, like I said above.

And Fuchs, as someone (McQ maybe) said in another thread, we'll agree to disagree on how we see certain elements of Shadowrun. And that's cool. There's about 400 different flavors of Shadowrun. I like mine old school flavored, with a lot of high action, fantasy, and drama, but only a few tablespoons of of reality, just enough to keep it grounded a bit.

Bull

[Fuchs]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that change. Since I haven't been playing a whole lot of Shadowrun, nor am I a fan of the HMHVV races (and hence haven't read the Runners Companion rules for 'em), I really wasn't aware that it had changed...

I think that's something I'll houserule out, like I said above.

And Fuchs, as someone (McQ maybe) said in another thread, we'll agree to disagree on how we see certain elements of Shadowrun. And that's cool. There's about 400 different flavors of Shadowrun. I like mine old school flavored, with a lot of high action, fantasy, and drama, but only a few tablespoons of of reality, just enough to keep it grounded a bit.

If you house rule the change out you at least partially agree.

[Bull]

If you house rule the change out you at least partially agree.

I do a bit. Like I said, I don't like the contact bit. It makes my early comments in this kind of unreasonable. You're right, atthat point,they become lepers. They're not even an AIDS equivalent at that point. I think that's incredibly unreasonable, unless Carriers are so damn rare (Like, 1 in 1000 or something crazy) that it renders them kinda moot anyways.

As it stands, I'd probably keep carriers at a decent ration (50% or better), but reduce the transmission vector from Touch to "bodily fluid" (aka, bite or, umm, "other"). At that point, they're icky, most people will be highly distrustful, there will be a lot of hatred and bigotry, but in general they're on par with current AIDS patients as far as virility. Heck, without a 100% Carrier rate, they're actually a little LESS dangerous, by and large.

Of course, your feral and insane asshole ghouls are a whole 'nother story (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fuchs]

I do a bit. Like I said, I don't like the contact bit. It makes my early comments in this kind of unreasonable. You're right, atthat point,they become lepers. They're not even an AIDS equivalent at that point. I think that's incredibly unreasonable, unless Carriers are so damn rare (Like, 1 in 1000 or something crazy) that it renders them kinda moot anyways.

As it stands, I'd probably keep carriers at a decent ration (50% or better), but reduce the transmission vector from Touch to "bodily fluid" (aka, bite or, umm, "other"). At that point, they're icky, most people will be highly distrustful, there will be a lot of hatred and bigotry, but in general they're on par with current AIDS patients as far as virility. Heck, without a 100% Carrier rate, they're actually a little LESS dangerous, by and large.

Of course, your feral and insane asshole ghouls are a whole 'nother story (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Since we can treat AIDS, but we cannot treat HMVV AIDS is far less dangerous. I'd reduce the carrier rate to 1% or less - but that's since I consider the whole "a scratch and you're dooomed, doomed, hahah - unless you burn edge, and you still lose essence anyway, sucker!" a stupid idea that's only in there to ruin a player's fun.

[Cardul]

Things that make Ghouls more acceptable nowdays:

1) They are more likely to still be sane and sentient then previously.
2) As Ancient history pointed out, there are the "Born Ghouls," who are not carriers.
3) While Ghouls need to heat metahuman flesh, they do not need to kill metahumans.
The Placenta restaurant in Neotokyo is one way, when Hollywood executes someone
would be another(I mean...why spend all that money injecting someone? 2 Nuyen for a bullet, then toss
the corpse to the Ghouls...). And, of course, I still think of Tanamous as having alot of ghouls in
charge somewhere..
This actually makes ghouls more palatable then, say, Vampires who do need to kill someone
periodically.
4) They are easily identifiable...it is always easier to accept someone you can discriminate more easily against.

The big down side is:
The Kreiger Strain is now ALOT more Virulent then it once was. Admittedly, I do not see the disease's classification of "contact" as being wrong, I do not see it as right, either. I would be more inclined to treat
it as "It only has the chance if the attack causes damage."
Though, I thought you just had to get the diseases power below your body for it to not effect you? And that
it has a 10 day duration, so you just need to reduce it below your body once, and you are good...though, the problem I see, is that it was never explained: is that 1.0 essence total from HMVV? Or 1.0 essence loss from one infection of HMVV? That makes a huge difference.

[Fuchs]

I think it's combined, else they just would have to write "if all 10 tests fail you turn into a ghoul", and not go through the trouble of having to keep track of essence loss.

[toturi]

Things that make Ghouls more acceptable nowdays:

1) They are more likely to still be sane and sentient then previously.
2) As Ancient history pointed out, there are the "Born Ghouls," who are not carriers.
3) While Ghouls need to heat metahuman flesh, they do not need to kill metahumans.
The Placenta restaurant in Neotokyo is one way, when Hollywood executes someone
would be another(I mean...why spend all that money injecting someone? 2 Nuyen for a bullet, then toss
the corpse to the Ghouls...). And, of course, I still think of Tanamous as having alot of ghouls in
charge somewhere..
This actually makes ghouls more palatable then, say, Vampires who do need to kill someone
periodically.
4) They are easily identifiable...it is always easier to accept someone you can discriminate more easily against.

The big down side is:
The Kreiger Strain is now ALOT more Virulent then it once was. Admittedly, I do not see the disease's classification of "contact" as being wrong, I do not see it as right, either. I would be more inclined to treat
it as "It only has the chance if the attack causes damage."
Though, I thought you just had to get the diseases power below your body for it to not effect you? And that
it has a 10 day duration, so you just need to reduce it below your body once, and you are good...though, the problem I see, is that it was never explained: is that 1.0 essence total from HMVV? Or 1.0 essence loss from one infection of HMVV? That makes a huge difference.

All you need to do is to get the disease's power to 0 for it not to affect you, therefore at the very first Disease Resistance, burn 1 Edge to critical success it and therefore never lose any Essense or somehow get at least 24 dice, remember once an Awakened is infected, you'd lose more than that point of Edge. Otherwise you'd need far more than 24 dice for the other Disease Resistance tests.

[hobgoblin]

another thing to consider is that a sinner ghoul can potentially live and work in isolation, thanks to telepresense...

a bit like the dolfins and orcas of blue planet, and how they interact with the human world...

[hobgoblin]

Btw, it comes to mind that we may be indirectly be arguing about the risk of a ghoul typhoid mary.

Also, will it not be in the interest of the growing ghoul population to police itself for 'willful negligence'?

And i just recalled reading about rl people trying to get infected by hiv. Whats the chance of something similar related to ghouls?

[Prime Mover]

I happen to be on my "thinking chair" this morning and going over Runners Companion sidebar discussing infected breeding. Ghouls can bear children and pass on the infection to them. But these offspring are not contagious. After all these years established ghoul enclaves could be strictly non infectious and more likely to elicit compassion.

On the other hand you could have an inbreed family of non infectious ghouls living out in the badlands. (ala The Hills Have Eyes)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

All you need to do is to get the disease's power to 0 for it not to affect you, therefore at the very first Disease Resistance, burn 1 Edge to critical success it and therefore never lose any Essense or somehow get at least 24 dice, remember once an Awakened is infected, you'd lose more than that point of Edge.

Sure, but thats only an option if the GM agrees on that way of reading Augmentation. Of course, reading it any other way would cause any disease have an infection ratio of 100%...

BTW, the preemptive loophole:

As O-Cells are neither inocculation nor antiviral agent but nanites they actually work against HMHVV. (in-game: improved immune cells - if immune cells don't work, HMHVV couldn't be resisted)
They aren't affected by penetration, either, as they are neither pharmaceuticals nor protective systems. (which refers to gear only, implants and the like don't count - and it would collide with the fact that protective systems provide resistance dice which they don't)

[Zormal]

All you need to do is to get the disease's power to 0 for it not to affect you, therefore at the very first Disease Resistance, burn 1 Edge to critical success it and therefore never lose any Essense or somehow get at least 24 dice, remember once an Awakened is infected, you'd lose more than that point of Edge. Otherwise you'd need far more than 24 dice for the other Disease Resistance tests.

I think that you would still have to do a total of 10 resistance tests (minimum), even after a critical success on the first one. Beating the test repeatedly is not easy, and you run out of edge pretty quick. That is unless you and your GM agree on another interpretation, like Rotbart said.

The number in parentheses is the minimum number of Disease Resistance Tests the character must make. Even if a previous test reduces the Power to 0, the character remains infected and must make another test to resist the effects again after Speed duration has passed, until the minimum number of tests have been made.

The speed of HMHVV III is 1 day (10). So, like pointed out before, the time to burn edge would be the last of the 'mandatory' resistance tests. You still lose essence, but at least you don't have to go on a permanent Atkins.

I think I'm gonna look for a good houserule on this one.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I think that you would still have to do a total of 10 resistance tests (minimum), even after a critical success on the first one.

That point is here:

If the Power is reduced to zero, the disease takes no effect; otherwise apply relevant effects depending on the remaining Power rating.
If the pathogen's Power is not reduced to zero, it is added to the pathogen's Power when rolling the next subsequent Disease Resistance Test.

That can be read the way that the first test become an "Infection Check" - determining whether or not you actually catch the disease. Because if you make the test "the disease takes no effect".

And that's pretty much the only sane way to read it, because, like pointed out, otherwise, every single disease has a 100% infection ratio on vector, making you catch any and all diseases.

[knasser]

Everytime the rules contradict themselves, Toturi takes 5S damage.

Developers - Think of Toturi!

[Muspellsheimr]

Though, I thought you just had to get the diseases power below your body for it to not effect you? And that
it has a 10 day duration, so you just need to reduce it below your body once, and you are good...though, the problem I see, is that it was never explained: is that 1.0 essence total from HMVV? Or 1.0 essence loss from one infection of HMVV? That makes a huge difference.

Incorrect. You must reduce the power to 0 for the disease to have no effect, for that interval. You must make a Resistance Test each interval period, a minimum number of times equal to the number on parenthesis - this is not an Extended Test. Each time you fail, you suffer the effects of the disease, and any unresisted Power is cumulative for the next Resistance roll.

Further, it is actually very clear that the 1.0 Essence Loss required to become a Ghoul is not per infection, but total.

For those interested, here are the infection rules for Ghouls. I do not have Running Wild yet, so if anything changed, let me know.

Vector: Contact
Speed: 1 day (10)
Penetration: –6
Power: 8
Nature: Retroviral
Effect: Pain, nausea, Essence loss, transformation
HMHVV III is responsible for the creation of ghouls, and
is typically spread by unprotected contact with those creatures or
their bodily fluids. Unlike the cases of other retroviruses in this
genus, the subject is usually awake and aware during the metamorphosis.
Every time the character fails the Disease Resistance Test,
he loses 0.1 points of Essence. If his Essence falls to 0 or below,
he dies.
The character should keep track of how many points of
Essence he loses every time he is infected with HMHVV III.
After losing 1.0 points of Essence in this fashion, the disease
halts (if still ongoing). The character loses all Resonance and
technomancer abilities and gains the Infected (Ghoul) Quality
and a Magic attribute of 1 (or retains his own Magic attribute, if
higher). Revitalization gene therapy cannot recover Essence lost
to HMHVV III infection.

Vector
The vector is the method by which the disease infects the
host. Diseases spread by contact must touch the target’s skin.

Speed
A pathogen’s Speed represents the incubation period between
initial exposure and the first Disease Resistance Test. It also
represents its period of effect—how long before the effects kick in
again, and another Disease Resistance Test must be made.
The number in parentheses is the minimum number of
Disease Resistance Tests the character must make. Even if a previous
test reduces the Power to 0, the character remains infected
and must make another test to resist the effects again after Speed
duration has passed, until the minimum number of tests have
been made.

Power
Even if Power is reduced to 0, the character remains infected
until she has made all of the requisite Disease Resistance Tests (see
Speed, above). Only after the minimum number of tests have been
made and the Power reduced to 0 is the disease defeated.

If the pathogen’s Power is not reduced to zero, it is added to
the pathogen’s Power when rolling the next subsequent Disease
Resistance Test. This accumulation continues only for a number
of resistance tests as listed in parentheses after the Speed in the
pathogen description. After the minimum number of tests have
been made, the infection has peaked, and Power will no longer accumulate.
The effects of the disease will continue until subsequent
resistance tests finally reduce its Power to zero.

[Muspellsheimr]

They aren't affected by penetration, either, as they are neither pharmaceuticals nor protective systems. (which refers to gear only, implants and the like don't count - and it would collide with the fact that protective systems provide resistance dice which they don't)

Similar to Armor Penetration for weapons, a disease or
pathogen’s Penetration rating affects the rating of any protective
system used to defend against it, including pharmaceuticals.

Guess what. Magic is also a type of protective system.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

You must reduce the power to 0 for the disease to have no effect, for that interval.

That's exactly not what RAW says. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Guess what.

Yeah: O-Cells are not a protective system by the definition of the disease rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Additionally, they are not used to defend against it - that would be the disease resistance test, which also declares that protective systems add dice to the disease resistance test.

Magic is also a type of protective system.

Nope. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

The number in parentheses is the minimum number of
Disease Resistance Tests the character must make. Even if a previous
test reduces the Power to 0, the character remains infected
and must make another test to resist the effects again after Speed
duration has passed, until the minimum number of tests have
been made.

The victim makes a resistance test using Body + the rating of
any protective systems, implants, or medicines. Every hit reduces
the disease’s Power by 1 point. If the Power is reduced to zero, the
disease takes no effect; otherwise apply relevant effects depending
on the remaining Power rating.
If the pathogen’s Power is not reduced to zero, it is added to
the pathogen’s Power when rolling the next subsequent Disease
Resistance Test. This accumulation continues only for a number
of resistance tests as listed in parentheses after the Speed in the
pathogen description. After the minimum number of tests have
been made, the infection has peaked, and Power will no longer accumulate.
The effects of the disease will continue until subsequent
resistance tests finally reduce its Power to zero.

"the disease takes no effect" is poor grammar at best, & I believe the line in question.

The 'reasonable' way to read this is "the disease has no effect", meaning you do not take damage, suffer from nausea, or, in the case of HMHVV, loose Essence. Nothing in that passage indicates it is speaking of the first Resistance test, nor exempts a successful test from the subsequent tests required by the Pathogen rules.

Further, "If the pathogen’s Power is not reduced to zero, it is added to the pathogen’s Power when rolling the next subsequent Disease Resistance Test" strongly indicates that there is another test, regardless of the previous result.



Your view may indeed be "the only sensible way" of reading it, but it is not Rules as Written.

[Muspellsheimr]

Yeah: O-Cells are not a protective system by the definition of the disease rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Additionally, they are not used to defend against it - that would be the disease resistance test, which also declares that protective systems add dice to the disease resistance test.

Nope. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

You can get away with O-Cells being unaffected due to technicality, but no such luck for Magic. Prophylaxis & Cure Disease spells explicitly provide bonus dice to the Disease Resistance Test.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Your view may indeed be "the only sensible way" of reading it, but it is not Rules as Written.

My point was that this can be interpreted both ways, RAW itself being ambigious.

BTW - Cellular Repair should be able to reset the counter for KHMHVV Essence loss as well.

[...]no such luck for Magic. Prophylaxis & Cure Disease spells explicitly provide bonus dice to the Disease Resistance Test.

Yet no-one will classify them as "protective system", but spells. Like qualities or dwarven resistance, those are modifiers. Taking Edge dice for a Disease Resistance Test won't make those "protective systems", either.

Basically, protective systems refers to external gear in contrast to implants. What's really silly is that keeping on your Chemsuit wll help with subsequent tests...

[knasser]

These rules are silly. Note I am not questioning the interpretation of them, but the effect. Aside from being so obnoxiously hard to beat that you might as well not bother having them, the contact vector as described makes it fantastically easy to pass on to the point that no-one in their right minds would allow a ghoul within leaping distance of them and the whole concept of PC ghouls goes out the window. Even if other PCs are accepting of being in close proximity to a ghoul ("No - don't pull me out of the gunfire, I'm more likely to survive the bullets than you touching me"), then I as GM still wouldn't want a PC with a 'Death Touch.' It also makes ghouls a terrible monster for me to use against the PCs. Either the PCs shoot them all dead from a distance, or they end up in close combat and almost certainly lose their character (I count being forced into playing a ghoul as losing your character). It's very binary.

And if ever ghouls want to "re-populate" their numbers, they can produce hundreds in just ten days.

[Ancient History]

Yes, thank you, this has been established. If and when (Ghost forfend) we have another edition and if (Ghost allows) I'm still there to throw my nickels in, it will be a point I will willingly bring up.

[Stahlseele]

Make up a complete Runner-Group out of various Ghoul Metavariants based in Asamondo or however that's called.
The whole frigging country is made up of canniballistic carnivourus super-human predators. would you want to be ANYTHING less than that as a runner in there?
I mean, even their Deckers and Riggers are gonna be tough SOBs!

[jerusalem7227]

being so contagious you wouldn't want to shoot one that was to close either. The impact from a projectile could launch bodily fluids and/or flesh in an area surrounding the target...netting the same result as touching.

Not in the rules...but something interesting I thought about if you wanted to be a complete azz to your players.

[Stahlseele]

And that is EXACTLY why no one would risk being near ghouls at all.
Asamondo would be nuked, the parts of cities SUSPECTED of harboring ghouls would be burned to the ground.
There would be curfews, nobody going out at night, flying drones opening fire on everything that looks REMOTELY ghoulish.
and it would be that way for SEVERAL years. Untill ALL ghouls have become extinct.
It's either that or the whole world slowly turning into ghouls without any little chance to stop this.
At least, as per the rules.

[Prime Mover]

And that is EXACTLY why no one would risk being near ghouls at all.
Asamondo would be nuked, the parts of cities SUSPECTED of harboring ghouls would be burned to the ground.
There would be curfews, nobody going out at night, flying drones opening fire on everything that looks REMOTELY ghoulish.
and it would be that way for SEVERAL years. Untill ALL ghouls have become extinct.
It's either that or the whole world slowly turning into ghouls without any little chance to stop this.
At least, as per the rules.

Having been established for some time now. Using the RAW second and third generation ghouls would no longer be contagious except to there offspring. So Asamondo wouldn't be as dangerous (at least infection wise) as one would think.

[hobgoblin]

the issue here is "contact".

how much is needed for contact to trigger? a milisecond with a pinky? a single cell of spit?

ah, SR4(244) gives a nice clue (tho its about toxins in a vial, not a body)...

[Critias]

being so contagious you wouldn't want to shoot one that was to close either. The impact from a projectile could launch bodily fluids and/or flesh in an area surrounding the target...netting the same result as touching.

Not in the rules...but something interesting I thought about if you wanted to be a complete azz to your players.

Which is why you need to kill them with fire. Atomic fire, if you've got it, but regular old napalm or Fireball spells will do in a pinch.

[Stahlseele]

Setting Zombies . . erm, ghouls . . on Fire is a dumb idea . . all that will accomplish is the fact that the monsters coming straight at you are also on fire . .

[PirateChef]

Setting Zombies . . erm, ghouls . . on Fire is a dumb idea . . all that will accomplish is the fact that the monsters coming straight at you are also on fire . .

That's why you are backing up while you doit... everyone forgets that part. Keep running from the burning zombie until it stops moving.

[Falconer]

Nah... we need to arm all shadowrunners w/ pipebombs w/ time fuses and audio/visual ghoul attraction.

As well as everyone gets molotov cocktails.

Plus, everyone gets unlimited pistol ammo and wants to dual wield em.


Again, anyone else getting the urge to play Left4Dead?


Seriously... I can't see the disease being anything except this base on this level of virulence and spreading mechanism.

[Snow_Fox]

Nope, I don't tolerate working with naything that is potentially looking at me as a date/entree/recruit all at once.

[Critias]

Setting Zombies . . erm, ghouls . . on Fire is a dumb idea . . all that will accomplish is the fact that the monsters coming straight at you are also on fire . .

Setting things on fire is never a bad idea. If it's not working, you're just not burning hot enough.

[Ancient History]

Nope, I don't tolerate working with naything that is potentially looking at me as a date/entree/recruit all at once.

How do you feel about two out of three?

[Dumori]

The rules aint changed from RC as far as I can tell so this debate is either solved some place or a long time coming. However I will quote fluff to may be the correct way of treating this contact vector.

HMHVV III is the most virulent form of the virus, and it can
be spread with a bite, a scratch, even a mere touch if you’re unlucky
enough to have an open wound.

[Snow_Fox]

"When in doubt, fire and acid everytime." Peter Davidson as the 5th Doctor.

[The Jake]

Yes, thank you, this has been established. If and when (Ghost forfend) we have another edition and if (Ghost allows) I'm still there to throw my nickels in, it will be a point I will willingly bring up.

I think this is the best win this thread could have achieved. Thanks AH. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Until then, houserules win.

- J.

[toturi]

Since innoculations were a "loophole" that was closed, my question to the developers/writers would be - Are O-Cells the next "loophole" that will be closed?

Is the intention of the developers to turn Shadowrun into Zombierun?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Damn, I didn't tolerate me any ghouls before this. Nows I gots me a even better excuse to shoot first and alter the reports later.

[Zormal]

How do you feel about two out of three?

Mmmmm... I can think of several combinations of two that sound highly pleasant.

Thanks for your support, btw. Like The Jake said, it was 'the best win' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cardul]

Here is a question: Infectious Ghouls....how long do they live? Does anyone think that the non-infectious Ghouls mighthave started thinning out the numbers of the infectious ones? Or the ones that can still think, started thinning out the numbers of the feral ghouls, and isolating themselves from where they could accidentally infect others? It would seem that, if they want to survive as a group, they would be taking measures to make themselves less dangerous...

Or, at least those ones that want to show that ghouls are people too.

[Fuchs]

How does anyone detect an infectious ghoul? Do ghouls go "Oh, we don't know this new ghoul, let's kill him"?

[Stahlseele]

Probably. If not as a Safetymeasure, then to secure a new food-source.

[GreyBrother]

How they tell an infectious from a noninfectious apart? They just take a look at the aura, i'm sure you can detect such a thing with three or four hits.

[Machiavelli]

This enormous potential for infection is definitely something, the devs should reconsider in a future errata. It is far away from the basics we know since app. 20 years and would negate all developments the human/metahuman rights associations did since then. Nobody that is sane, would accept a single ghoul around him, not speaking of a whole ghoul nation. Just think about a ghoul, spitting on the ground, touching a glass in a bar, not knowing if he is infectious (maybe he doesn´t know it by himself)...and *poof* some days later every customer of this bar transforms. Not playable, unless you want to play Resident Evil Extinction.

[Marduc]

In augmentation p129

The number in parentheses is the minimum number of
Disease Resistance Tests the character must make. Even if a previous
test reduces the Power to 0, the character remains infected
and must make another test to resist the effects again after Speed
duration has passed, until the minimum number of tests have
been made.

Emphasis mine.

This clearly states that if you beat the disease power during the first ten tests you still need to take the remainder of the tests.

[Dancer]

As an alternative to killing with fire in cases where this may spread and cause further damage / lawsuits, how about entirely cocooning them in impervious material? Soem form of high-tensile freeze-foam or something, delivered high-pressure from a backpack sprayer.

[Stahlseele]

That would be one way to deal with them.
But not as easy and impressive as Napalm-Bombing their homes.
And you still need to get too close to them to apply the foam.

[toturi]

In augmentation p129

Emphasis mine.

This clearly states that if you beat the disease power during the first ten tests you still need to take the remainder of the tests.

Of course. But what power is the disease after you reduced its power to zero? To me, this is what is ambiguous.

[Marduc]

During the first ten tests the disease operates in an Accumulating Power mode, meaning that every test you must beat the base DV of the disease + any remaining power from the previous test.

example sequence
first test dv 8
save 4
second test dv 8 + 4 = 12
save 9
third test dv 8 + 3 = 11
save 11
fourth test dv 8 + 0 = 8
save 5
fifth test dv 8 + 3 = 11
ect.

[DuctShuiTengu]

For the following, P equals the base power of the disease (8 in the case of HMHVVIII), R is the remaining power from the prior test (that is, how far you fell short of making the threshold), and T is the total power for this interval

If the minimum duration has not passed:
T = P + R

If the minimum duration has passed:
T = 0 + R

P for HMHVVIII is 8. So, if your first test succeeds, reducing R to 0, what you get is the following:

T = 8 + 0

So, you're still looking at a Power of 8 for the second roll.

[toturi]

During the first ten tests the disease operates in an Accumulating Power mode, meaning that every test you must beat the base DV of the disease + any remaining power from the previous test.

example sequence
first test dv 8
save 4
second test dv 8 + 4 = 12
save 9
third test dv 8 + 3 = 11
save 11
fourth test dv 8 + 0 = 8
save 5
fifth test dv 8 + 3 = 11
ect.

Ah but "this accumulation only continues for a number of resistance tests as listed in parentheses after the Speed in the pathogen description". But that applies to the preceding sentence which states "if the pathogen's Power is not reduced to zero...".

Therefore what is the pathogen's power if its power is reduced to zero? The answer could be 0.

First test - Burn Edge - power 0
Since power reduced to zero, second paragraph does not apply, while the sentence that states number of minimum rolls still do, hence:
Second test Power 0
Third test Power 0
etc

If minimum duration has not passed, T = P+R(n) if R(n) !=0, where n>1
If R(n)=0, then P=0 until T>0

Therefore power of second roll is 0.