The CGL situation p3 Options

[Caine Hazen]

redacted and reopened

[Penta]

That was...fascinating.

[Stahlseele]

indeed.

[Centurion13]

Sorry to have spoiled things there.

Obviously I don't do forums very often.

Cent13

[Tanegar]

Holy fucking asscrackers, guys, how long are we going to hash this over? I'm concerned about Catalyst, too, but there's sweet fuck-all we can do about it, and the discussion has now resulted in two threads self-destructing. Go read a book or something. Or, you know, play Shadowrun.

[Centurion13]

Holy fucking asscrackers, guys, how long are we going to hash this over? I'm concerned about Catalyst, too, but there's sweet fuck-all we can do about it, and the discussion has now resulted in two threads self-destructing. Go read a book or something. Or, you know, play Shadowrun.

Point taken. I have some shopping to do anyway.

Cent13

[Stahlseele]

Holy fucking asscrackers, guys, how long are we going to hash this over? I'm concerned about Catalyst, too, but there's sweet fuck-all we can do about it, and the discussion has now resulted in two threads self-destructing. Go read a book or something. Or, you know, play Shadowrun.

If you don't like it, don't read it.
This needs to be discussed.
Granted, a bit more civil than before, but still.
Usually, the admins and moderators around here are a bit more lenient, it's HIGHLY seldom that threads get locked/deleted.
Seeing how this has happened twice allready in this discussion, there is a good deal of emotional investment involved here.

[Abschalten]

Wow, I must've missed something epic while I was getting supper.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, frank sadly went down the religious route and someone rose to the bait and countered with evolution needing the same faith as religion.

[Ancient History]

Well, when in doubt the Terms of Service always apply. Dumpshock has always been very good about not publishing "private" communications, whether they be your PMs or, in this case, Randall's private letter to the freelancers concerning the situation.

[Abschalten]

Yep, that'll do it.

[Stahlseele]

Ah, yes, of course, that too, i forgot about that.
Just good, that i made copies of franks postings, like a good little paranoid runner . .

[OneTrikPony]

You realize of course that killing that thread is FULL CONFIRMATION of the truth in those posts about the Email.

I was just waiting for a thread lock or for JM to come on. I got my wish. Everything Frank said is true.


I still think this is fun. A tiny fraction of me is still hopefully ammused, waiting to see what people are saying in 5 days. This could be the biggest one ever.

Yeah, frank sadly went down the religious route and someone rose to the bait and countered with evolution needing the same faith as religion.

BWWAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAAAAA!
Props Stahlseele that was funny.

[Ancient History]

You realize of course that killing that thread is FULL CONFIRMATION of the truth in those posts about the Email.

Well, no. Killing the thread was a direct response to violation of the ToS. Randall's letter is as close to full confirmation of anything as you're likely to get.

[Khyron]

There are a variety of reasons to kill a thread, it doesn't mean confirmation of anything.

[Stahlseele]

You're not a real conspiracy nut if you can still say that . .

[OneTrikPony]

Well, no. Killing the thread was a direct response to violation of the ToS. Randall's letter is as close to full confirmation of anything as you're likely to get.

Ya. but for me, being an ousider, the thread lock, (and your comment above) prove that the letter existed and that the content was as posted. It turned 3rd party rumor into verified info.

Wait... did someone actually post the text of the letter while I wasn't looking? Last post I saw it was still just one guy saying he saw the letter somewhere.

Thanks AH (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
(again; any chance that you'll get to share your PACKS at some point?)

[Stahlseele]

Yes, frank got the letter from someone and posted it.
Which is a banable offense.

[Ancient History]

Wait... did someone actually post the text of the letter while I wasn't looking? Last post I saw it was still just one guy saying he saw the letter somewhere.

Yes, Frank posted the contents of the letter. Which led fairly directly to us having a bright, shiny, new thread.

Thanks AH (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
(again; any chance that you'll get to share your PACKS at some point?)

If the Runners Toolkit is published without my PACKS, I'll post my PACKS for comparison.

[LurkerOutThere]

Yes man, you are just far too clever for us on the internet and ahve seen through our clever corporate disguise, hows the doctorate and the first mil coming by the way?

[Stahlseele]

Yes, Frank posted the contents of the letter. Which led fairly directly to us having a bright, shiny, new thread.


If the Runners Toolkit is published without my PACKS, I'll post my PACKS for comparison.

I will be waiting for this ^^

[OneTrikPony]

Yes man, you are just far too clever for us on the internet and ahve seen through our clever corporate disguise, hows the doctorate and the first mil coming by the way?

LOL (blow me!)

Frank didn't need to post the actual letter. That's not fun. That kind of real information is killing my hope that this is still an april fools day thing. He should have waited till tuesday. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

BTW. if Coleman really is a thieving prick and all of this is true what ARE you guys going to do for April Fools? You might as well just tell because you'll never top this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Well before the Fasa Curse came back up again and it went all SNAFU on us, there was talk about Battlerun 2 if i remember correctly.

[Ghremdal]

Just to chime in my 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

I hope that Catalyst pulls through. I got into Shadowrun 6 months ago, and just fell in love with it. Mostly due to the great lore, but also a large part in that has been the mechanics and the overall book presentations. I love the short stories in front of each chapter, the commentaries of Jackpointers, and the art. So kudos to all who worked on them. As a long time DnD player, Shadowrun was a fresh, invigorating experience that changed my outlook on RPGs.

[Stahlseele]

In Shadowrun, the whole world is your dungeon and you probably work for one of the dragons living in it.

[Ghremdal]

Very likely. Is there anything dragons don't control (I count several AAA corps, the Triads, Yakuza...)?

Though a lot of my lore came from Shapcano's and Rat's stories, and what I've been able to scrape together on Ancient History's site and the 6th world wiki. For a long while I thought that the mana cycles in ~25 k years, rather then the canon 5k.

Anyway what I'm trying to say, even if Catalyst doesn't make it through (and I hope they do), imho there are a lot of fan based enhancements to the core rules that will provide me plenty of fun.

[Adam]

Frank didn't need to post the actual letter. That's not fun. That kind of real information is killing my hope that this is still an april fools day thing.

There is no elaborate joke going on.

[Delarn]

Wait there was someone crazy enough to have posted PM onto the board ... He's he just plain stupid or is it my imagination ?

[Method]

And so ends Franks return to Dumpshock. Good times.

I gotta admit tho, I miss having that guy around. Not the controversy, mind you, but he has some great ideas about SR.

[JM Hardy]

Well, look what happens when I decide to spend the day with my family!

I'm mainly popping in to say I'm still here to say what I can, but also to insist that there are some things that are private that I will keep private, even if other people don't feel compelled to do so.

Jason H.

[Zolhex]

Well, look what happens when I decide to spend the day with my family!

I'm mainly popping in to say I'm still here to say what I can, but also to insist that there are some things that are private that I will keep private, even if other people don't feel compelled to do so.

Jason H.

Don't feel bad I missed all the excitment too silly me I was playing Shadowrun with my friends (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) .

[JM Hardy]

Don't feel bad I missed all the excitment too silly me I was playing Shadowrun with my friends (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) .

Excellent, excellent decision.

Jason H.

[Grexul]

Wow! I'm glad to know it wasn't my pithy little comment that closed the thread.
There is alot of difference between a private letter to the freelancers and a press release to a forum, the second can and usually does contain considerable spin, the first should be as straight as possible.

Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.

[Method]

Don't feel bad I missed all the excitment too silly me I was playing Shadowrun with my friends (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) .

You didn't miss much. You made the right decision.

[Ol' Scratch]

Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.

I tried sending you a private message, but you have them disabled. Anyway, if your name was an innocent mistake and not part of an image you're going for, you can send a message to Adam or most of the other mods here and ask them to change it for you. Adam was kind enough to do so for me when my name was too long for the new forum software (I was going by Doctor Funkenstein then). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nemafow]

Man, I miss the forums for a day and the whole thing blows up, and I don't know diddly squat of whats happened.

[Khyron]

Frank is still posting the letter around but not on DS.

[Method]

[edit]- NM. I was going to give a synopsis without details, but Khyron already threw it out there.

[Oehler the Black]

Jeez I play one session of SR and miss some crazy thread drama?
Would anyone care to stifle wild speculation and provide myself and the other neophytes an idea of wtf just happened? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

[Grexul]

I tried sending you a private message, but you have them disabled. Anyway, if your name was an innocent mistake and not part of an image you're going for, you can send a message to Adam or most of the other mods here and ask them to change it for you. Adam was kind enough to do so for me when my name was too long for the new forum software (I was going by Doctor Funkenstein then). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thanks for the info, I haven't found how to enable PMs yet, so I haven't been ale to PM anyone. Grexul has been the name of several my PCs over the years, in SR and D&D. It came from an old fantasy novel by Lin Carter.

Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.

[Khyron]

Thanks for the info, I haven't found how to enable PMs yet, so I haven't been ale to PM anyone. Grexul has been the name of several my PCs over the years, in SR and D&D. It came from an old fantasy novel by Lin Carter.

Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.

It's the board spambot protection system. You need something like 10 posts before you can PM.

[nemafow]

Ah, I found the letter posted on the intrawebs... I see what I missed. Interesting.

[SecGuard]

Thanks for the info, I haven't found how to enable PMs yet, so I haven't been ale to PM anyone. Grexul has been the name of several my PCs over the years, in SR and D&D. It came from an old fantasy novel by Lin Carter.

Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.

You're up too 10 now so you should be able too PM now.

Man i went to get some sleep and thread2 went into meltdown.

[knasser]

Jeez I play one session of SR and miss some crazy thread drama?
Would anyone care to stifle wild speculation and provide myself and the other neophytes an idea of wtf just happened? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

A letter to freelancers was posted on private freelancer forums from the Managing Developer of CGL. At least one of the free lancers decided it should be public and used the anonymous remailing services of FrankTrollman - he being the one that cannot be fired and cannot be blacklisted by the industry any further than he already is. The letter appeared here and on other sites.

For some reason I can't quite fathom, this resulted in the entire thread being deleted. That's pretty off, imo. There was some momentary religious conflagration because the letter was a personal letter and the author stated how their religious beliefs influenced their decisions in this matter. Frank made some comment about religious hoo-haw not trumping the law or similar. Someone else launched launched into one on that. Then thread-boom.

The letter basically admits in different words that Loren Coleman and his wife have embezzled money from CGL, by implication confirms the scale of it is large and that this situation has been brewing for some time.

Posting private correspondence is against the terms of DS, apparently, and Frank has now been super-banned from Dumpshock. Though it must be said as Frank is no longer allowed to defend himself on these forums that the letter was posted on a forum for the freelancers and he was asked by one or more of those freelancers to let us the community see it. If you send someone a letter, you have no legal power over what that person gets to do with it or share it with. The moral issue of whether to share it or not, obviously is impacted by the contents. In this case, one or more of the freelancers felt the content needed to be shared with the fans.

Now simply deleting the thread wont silence questioning about the letter (the reverse) and censoring discussion of it will just lead to more confusion, questions and discussion (as we are seeing). I am reminded of the old British joke - "It's not true until a government official denies it". So this is the cleanest summary of the letter situation I can provide and hopefully it will satisfy everyone's legitimate curiousity about "what just happened" and prevent this becoming a censorship war which will only reflect badly on the DS and inflame the curious further.

Peace,

Khadim.

[Tycho]

some people never learn the lesson...

The letter is now all over the RPG sites und forums.
Thanks, Frank Trollman for sharing this information.

cya
Tycho

[BTFreeLancer]

A letter to freelancers was posted on private freelancer forums from the Managing Developer of CGL.

You realize of course the Managing Developer of CGL is the co-owner, and the person who has the *most* at stake here.

some of us received the letter by private email. If it was on a private forum, that's where it should have stayed.

At least one of the free lancers decided it should be public and used the anonymous remailing services of FrankTrollman

And what gives them that right?

I don't have an issue with Frank posting the letter, he's never made any secret of his bias, and in this case he's simply an automaton that follows what instructions he's been given, and then kicks into pavlovian response on forums. My ire is reserved for those few SR freelancers who are pulling his strings anonymously. I don't particularly want my dirty laundry aired, especially without my consent. On the email that was sent out, I count 50+ BT Freelancers - not sure of the SR numbers, but I'd imagine they'd be similar. Why should I have any respect for the people who selfishly decided that all 100+ people (and that's just the SR and BT IPs, the other IPs would increase that) should have their financial situation with CGL aired in public?

If that letter was directly addressed to those freelancers with concerns - and only them - then they could do what they want with it.

But it wasn't.

[Cain]

Posting private correspondence is against the terms of DS, apparently, and Frank has now been super-banned from Dumpshock. Though it must be said as Frank is no longer allowed to defend himself on these forums that the letter was posted on a forum for the freelancers and he was asked by one or more of those freelancers to let us the community see it. If you send someone a letter, you have no legal power over what that person gets to do with it or share it with. The moral issue of whether to share it or not, obviously is impacted by the contents. In this case, one or more of the freelancers felt the content needed to be shared with the fans.

My question is, where is the ban on posting private correspondence in the ToS?

Rules

1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

2. No spamming the forums, and no commercial posts allowed. This includes "bumping" or posting useless content for the purpose of bringing a thread to the top of the forum.

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(Usage constitutes ownership, at least in this case, when the original owner of an account passes on full posting and usage privileges to another person, and said person makes routine use of the account, especially if the original owner ceases to use the account.)

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9. Please understand that any PMs directed toward moderators or administrators in relation to administrative matters may be viewed by the entire forum staff.

I can see the religious thing as being against the ToS, but unlike RPG.net, there's no instruction against posting private emails. Also, there's nothing saying you can be banned for being suspected of leaking Shadowrun material; but according to the first post in this thread, that's exactly what happened.

I'm confused. Are there other rules we should be aware of?

[hobgoblin]

i say we point the hose on supposedly white horse frank is riding around on.

it would not surprise me the least that it turns out to be painted...

[Bob Lord of Evil]

You know over the years I have been required to sign something known as a NDA...(Non Disclosure Agreement) and I am betting the individual or individuals that requested Frank act as proxy had signed one as well.

So...yeah somebody(s) intentionally bypassed their NDA...they have every reason to be worried about being blacklisted within the industry.

[Cain]

You know over the years I have been required to sign something known as a NDA...(Non Disclosure Agreement) and I am betting the individual or individuals that requested Frank act as proxy had signed one as well.

So...yeah somebody(s) intentionally bypassed their NDA...they have every reason to be worried about being blacklisted within the industry.

You have a point, but that would depend on what's specifically covered in the NDA. If it didn't cover the material they were working on, they might be safe.

Could I ask any freelancers here what exactly is and isn't covered by the Catalyst NDA? Does it cover communication about payments, or does it cover all emails and forum posts?

[knasser]

You realize of course the Managing Developer of CGL is the co-owner, and the person who has the *most* at stake here.

This isn't meant confrontationally, but I'm not sure what your point with this is. Presumably you are saying that this person is subject to greater pressure to spin or present things in a particular way? That may be so, but the letter seemed genuine enough to me. (Reason being if it were spin, it would have omitted parts that didn't help its case).

If you're saying that he has some sort of higher priority in all this due to his stake in the company, then I'm not entirely sure in what regard you mean. That his decisions should count for more? That his opinion should be more highly regarded? I essentially stated that the letter appeared to be true and stated that it confirmed implicitly a lot of what had been said regarding Loren Coleman purloining funds. His position actually supports my statement, doesn't it?

I would comment on your view that he has the most at stake. I would actually, politely, dispute that. My view is that those who have the most at stake are the people who play Shadowrun and worry for how this may impact the game. This is cumulative of course, but cumulatively the value that the Shadowrun players attach to the game dwarves any individual interest and this forum focuses that cumulative interest of the Shadowrun community. Many of us have put enormous amounts of time and effort into this game. I myself have spend hundreds of hours of my time producing material for it (check out my site - and that's only a fraction of what I've posted historically). It's my personal morality here, but I place the contributions of all the people who wrote the game, edited it, layed it out, as highest in terms of value to the game. So basically, I'm flat out rejecting those posters that say we have no legitimate interest in what goes on because we're not financially involved. There's about £200 of Shadowrun books right next to me as I type. Of course I have a stake in this as does everyone else here. And put us all together...

some of us received the letter by private email. If it was on a private forum, that's where it should have stayed.

I would be unlikely to forward on a private correspondence of this nature myself. However, the contents of it are relevant, offering confirmation of things as it does and clearly somebody on the recipient list felt that it should have been shared. I understand that along with FrankTrollman, the suspected leaker has also been banned from Dumpshock. That's unfortunate as it starts to seem that the DS mods are being drawn into some sort of party line on this. I'm surprised if this is so, but note that contrary to statements earlier, as of the time I'm typing right now, posting this private letter is not against the TOS listed on DS, I just checked.

And what gives them that right?

Well, to turn it around, what gives anyone else the right to stop them? If they feel that this is important enough to go public with, then that is a decision for them to make. Perhaps it's borderline - the letter only confirms what we pretty much knew - but clearly they felt it should be shared. That person clearly felt it was less moral to be having all this going on behind the scenes without the community knowing what was going on. There's an alternative in that they shared this just to be spiteful, but in this case, and without going into details, I don't believe that to be the case. It's unfortunate that an email intended to be semi-private became widely public in the sense of a breach of expected trust. But someone obviously felt the greater wrong was to keep it hidden.

You view this as a Catalyst matter and don't think it is the right of a few individuals to make the decision to share inside discussions with outsiders. I understand that and it's fair. But clearly someone also viewed themselves as part of the Shadowrun community and given the contents of this letter, that trumped CGL for them. Were they right to do so?

The ultimate question in all this is not whether we like a statement or not, but whether it is true.

You know over the years I have been required to sign something known as a NDA...(Non Disclosure Agreement) and I am betting the individual or individuals that requested Frank act as proxy had signed one as well.

So...yeah somebody(s) intentionally bypassed their NDA...they have every reason to be worried about being blacklisted within the industry.

I don't know this, but I would imagine the NDA covers the actual content and proposed content of the game, not emails about personal decisions to forgive the Colemans for their actions. There would be a legal expectation of confidentiality for some of the CGL employees about internal financial matters, but I'd be surprised if that affected freelancers contributing game material.

i say we point the hose on supposedly white horse frank is riding around on.

it would not surprise me the least that it turns out to be painted...

I've always had a lot of respect for you on these forums, hobgoblin, but I'm unsure where you're coming from here. Are you suggesting that some of what Frank is posting is not true? If so, which parts? He's been fairly scrupulous here and elsewhere about supporting his statements. Unfortunately, now that's he's banned, he can't reply to comments like the above.

K.

[Grexul]

You're up too 10 now so you should be able too PM now.

Man i went to get some sleep and thread2 went into meltdown.

Yes, I have PMed Adam and hopefully will receive an answer soon.

As for Frank's posting of said letter and his 'analysis' thereof, both probably contributed to his ban.

Grexul

[Celt IMC]

Bleh. I've seen the letter elsewehere on the web and it doesn't seem to do anything but confirm the info we already had. As has been pointed out, I don't see how Frank's posting it was a violation of DumpShock's ToS. I didn't see the sideshow that sprang off from whatever comment on Bills' faith was submitted, but all that is pretty irrelevant to the issue which is within the scope of our shared interest in ShadowRun and CGL's welfare. It sounds like suspension and bannings may have been earned by someone, and those posts deleted.

I don't think the thread as a whole needed to be deleted as there was worthwhile reporting, commentary and speculation there. If Frank was banned solely for posting the letter, and someone else suspected of being the leaker suspended, there's nothing in the ToS to apparently support it. If that's the case, then IMO, bad show, DS, bad show.

[fistandantilus4....]

As for Frank's posting of said letter and his 'analysis' thereof, both probably contributed to his ban.

Grexul

If Frank gets banned, it will be because of violations to the Terms of Service. I've seen a lot of personal attacks on these last couple of pages by numerous individuals. We have a little pow wow going on at the moment. When that's finished, Warnings/Breaks will be sent out as appropriate. In the mean time, keep it civil. Personal attacks and

any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

are violations to the ToS.

[fistandantilus4....]

Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.

Noted. I'll be getting to that.

Thanks Doc.

[JM Hardy]

From Catalyst's NDA:

1. Confidential Information
As used in this Agreement, “Confidential Information” means all information of either party that is not generally known to the public, whether of a technical, business or other nature (including, without limitation, trade secrets, know-how and information relating to the technology, customers, business plans, promotional and marketing activities, finances and other business affairs of such party), that is disclosed by the Disclosing Party to the Receiving Party, and that has been identified as being proprietary and/or confidential or that by the nature of the circumstances surrounding the disclosure ought to be treated as proprietary and confidential. Confidential Information also includes all information concerning the existence and progress of the parties’ dealings

I believe that makes it pretty clear that the letter is covered.

Jason H.

[fistandantilus4....]

Part of our discussion is whether or not that constitutes the same as "pirated"

5. No posts that contain pirated materials, requests for pirated materials, or advocacy of pirating are permitted.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I believe that makes it pretty clear that the letter is covered.

So the CGL NDA is part of the DS ToS now?

[fistandantilus4....]

Did I say that?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

After checking, I'm relieved that I referenced the correct person I quoted.

Sorry for any confusion caused.

[JM Hardy]

So the CGL NDA is part of the DS ToS now?

I didn't say that either. People asked what would be covered by the NDA; I answered. I didn't say anything about Dumpshock's response.

Jason H.

[Delarn]

So the CGL NDA is part of the DS ToS now?

And it's a good thing. DS is the Official forum after all.

Frank should be sued for his actions. He infringed confidentiality. Even if he was a proxy for a ranting freelancer that freelancer should have all his work done under the NDA taken and given to CGL without payment, for the NDA infringement. That freelancer should also post an official excuse to this board or to CGL. He humiliated CGL and should be humiliated in return.

I'm sorry to burst like that but it is just stupid to have done that.

My appologies to all that can be offuscated by that post. but it's my thought about the subject. Give your stuff and apologise. Then the community may or may not accept it.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Did I say that?

I didn't say that either.

So I'm also relieved that both DS and CGL staff do not express the notion that terms of the CGL freelancer agreement apply as part of the DS user agreement.

[LurkerOutThere]

Actually DS is not the official forums, we're' quite unofficial in fact, Dumpshock is also a private entity and not a democracy which teands to mean it's moderations can ban whoever they choose. As great an advocate of liberty as I am it works both ways. Having said that yes this would fall quite squarly under a violation of the NDA Jason posted and the piracy clause of the TOS.

I continue to believe that the freelancers that linked the document committed an ethical breach, as did Frank.

[Delarn]

Actually DS is not the official forums, we're' quite unofficial in fact, Dumpshock is also a private entity and not a democracy which teands to mean it's moderations can ban whoever they choose. As great an advocate of liberty as I am it works both ways. Having said that yes this would fall quite squarly under a violation of the NDA Jason posted and the piracy clause of the TOS.

I continue to believe that the freelancers that linked the document committed an ethical breach, as did Frank.

I was just angry on that previous post of mine.

[Ancient History]

You're assuming Frank got it directly from a freelancer, instead of second or third hand, and also that the person ultimately responsible for the leak was even covered by an NDA, which I believe many of them are not.

Ultimately, as far as the contents of the letter are concerned, there's not a great deal in there that Catalyst hasn't already posted or that most people following the situation could reasonably guess. The worst part about the letter being leaked is that Randall et al. will probably communicate even less with the freelancers than they do already, for fear of it getting out to the public at large. A very unfortunate turn of events, and indicative of the lack of trust that already exists in the organization.

[knasser]

I'm going to somewhat withdraw my comments from above. It isn't good that communications meant personally get posted online. It depends on the content, really. Someone tells you confidentially that they're going to blow up parliament, you do have to set that above the wrongness of breaching confidentiality (actually, parliament's a bad example... let's say a hospital). Where does this sit on the scale of things? Everyone will have a different take on things. Someone could have just said: "there's a letter which confirms fraud and the CGL Managing Developer takes the position of forgive and forget" and that could have been sufficient. But I suppose you'd have then got some people doubting it or saying "no proof!", so the approach that was taken was understandable.

I'm going to say one thing on the subject of religion (no don't panic mods, this is okay) and it's that religious / spiritual forgiveness is not intrinsically tied to lack of punishment nor is repentence tied to lack of sentence, neither in Christianity or Islam. So the religious angle is irrelevant here.

Peace,

K.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

And it's a good thing.

Chilling effects are never a good thing.

Frank should be sued for his actions.

There is nothing to gain from that but nuclear PR.

It isn't good that communications meant personally get posted online.

To be perfectly fair, posting private messages to the public is pretty much the most severe breach of netiquette possible.

[Sengir]

Well, I guess nobody doubted that the person who originally leaked the info to FT (or to the person who then gave it to a person who then gave it to him) violated the standard confidentiality clause in his or her contract (never seen one witout it) and/or a seperate NDA. Trollman on the other hand was just acting as a private person.


Anyway, what I find interesting is the timeline that is beginning to emerge: Towards the end of last year, people figured out that private and business funds had been mixed up and began to analyze the situation and write a plan how to unwist that mess. Towards the end of the process first the operations manager jumps ship, then on the day the final report is delivered the bookkeeper does the same. The next day the news break and everybody goes into headless chicken mode...that is, except on cbt.com, where the admins aparently never heard of Mrs. Streisand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kid Chameleon]

I would comment on your view that he has the most at stake. I would actually, politely, dispute that. My view is that those who have the most at stake are the people who play Shadowrun and worry for how this may impact the game.

Really? The few people employed by Catalyst are relying on this for their livelihood not just so they can enjoy a few hours. To propose that you would lose more because you past time isn't being produced for you is ridiculous when compared to people being unable to provide for their families. I find that the priorities you are displaying here are out of wack with reality.

[fistandantilus4....]

After checking, I'm relieved that I referenced the correct person I quoted.

Sorry for any confusion caused.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

DS is the Official forum after all.

Nope. Sorry.

At this point, Frank is not suspended. For a nice dose of transparency, he has been issued a Warning for his comments in regards to religion. That's a ToS violation. It's also his 8th violation on record. We generally follow a 10 step process where #10 is a Permaban. That has been superceded before, when a particular poster asked to be banned and we obliged. In other words, there can be special circumstances if the privelege is abused. That isn't the case at the moment.

As to the internal emails of Catalyst, that is still being debated. We prefer to wait for all of our mods to sound off on issues like this so we can speak with a general consensus when something isn't clear cut under the ToS. So at this point, the only debate would be whether or not the infamous e-mail falls under "piracy".

Obviously everyone has a lot of personal feelings invested on all sides, myself included. We're doing our best to put those aside and do our jobs, namely abiding by the rules we set out under the Terms of Service, just as everyone else is. So that's it for the moment. Play nice, no more name calling. Some more Warnings will likely be going out to individuals, but those will be (hard to say this with a straight face) internal, unlike what we've seen here. Obviously trust is getting burned on both ends, so we're trying to be very transparent here.

If you have questions regarding that, feel free to voice them. But don't do it in this thread. Take it to the "Bugs/news" thread. We'd like to make an effort to keeping this one on topic.

[knasser]

And it's a good thing. DS is the Official forum after all.

No it isn't.

Frank should be sued for his actions. He infringed confidentiality. Even if he was a proxy for a ranting freelancer that freelancer should have all his work done under the NDA taken and given to CGL without payment, for the NDA infringement. That freelancer should also post an official excuse to this board or to CGL. He humiliated CGL and should be humiliated in return.

If you commit massive fraud, you shouldn't put the blame for any "humiliation" on the people who comment about it. You seem to be putting CGL on some sort of pedestal, thinking they have some privilege of some kind. My loyalty is to the game. If people like Adam Jury and Ancient History (his DS name is what I mentally know him as) are walking due to disagreements with Catalyst, I want to know about it. I have an interest in knowing about it. Frank's involvement with Shadowrun predates the very existence of Catalyst. Any loyalty he has is to the game, not the company that is licensing the rights. He doesn't work for them. He shouldn't be sued for "infringing confidentiality", his actions have brought all this to our attention and given the freelancers - who are far more the core of this game than Catalyst is - greater leverage.

Wrongs have been done. I fail to see why you think someone should be sued for exposing them. (Not that he could be).

[knasser]

Really? The few people employed by Catalyst are relying on this for their livelihood not just so they can enjoy a few hours. To propose that you would lose more because you past time isn't being produced for you is ridiculous when compared to people being unable to provide for their families. I find that the priorities you are displaying here are out of wack with reality.

You didn't read my post. I said the community has the greatest stake in the success of the game. I may have only donated a few hundred hours to writing materials for the game. The thousands upon thousands of people who play it and have bought the books - no individual's interests in Shadowrun come close the scale of interest of the community as a whole. My meaning was very clearly stated.

[Demonseed Elite]

Ultimately, as far as the contents of the letter are concerned, there's not a great deal in there that Catalyst hasn't already posted or that most people following the situation could reasonably guess. The worst part about the letter being leaked is that Randall et al. will probably communicate even less with the freelancers than they do already, for fear of it getting out to the public at large. A very unfortunate turn of events, and indicative of the lack of trust that already exists in the organization.

I agree with AH. As outspoken as I tend to be about Catalyst's mistreatment of freelancers, I'd have preferred that the letter to freelancers was not posted to the public. It accomplished little unless you believed Catalyst's press release word-for-word, in which case I have a bridge I would like to sell you. But it will accomplish a great deal in further breaking down the trust between freelancers and the publisher, trust which up until this point had been mostly damaged by Catalyst, not by the freelancers themselves. But when freelancers start taking communications meant for them to the public, that dynamic changes. I can understand that some freelancers are angry and it's also possible that they didn't realize it would be released publicly, but it does more damage than good.

[LurkerOutThere]

And how has said community been harmed?

A couple of scenarios

CGL gets it's act together, retains the license and pays it's debts: Minimal harm, potential loss of talent already gone.
CLG folds: Delay in production likely of a year while new operation spins up, all the problems of above plus the possibility that none of the freelancers return.

Now since people have called the Coleman's and Bill's judgement into question: It's their call to make, it's their choice to make, business entities are seldom a democracy. THe players can vote with their wallets if they find the quality lowered, the freelancers can vote with their talent by working elsewhere and withholding copyright. Not what I think i'd do but then again I'm not in their situation and not owed money, I tend to get terribly annoyed when i am owed and not paid so I understand others doing the same.

However a line has been crossed by some where they endeaver to ruin the company and drag peoples name through the mud, question their judgement, and insult their beliefs. I don't know why that's cool on the internet, it historically goes over very poorly face to face.

Final ponderance: In just under 6 hours I will be running a game of shadowrun at my FLGS. Nothing that occurs with CGL or this debate will affect that. Even if CGL folds none of it will cause my hard copies to combust or my PDF's to delete themselves. But the damage to peoples reputation's is more permanent I would urge everyone, including Frank to consider that before escalating this llittle nothing into something more. If you are owed funds by the company I have no right to advise you on your course of action, but everyone else should probly unplug for a moment and take a few deep breaths.

[Teulisch]

huh. so, aside from the nda/tos argument, whats the current actual news?

although... interesting reaction to a hacker posting paydata to the jackpoint here.

[Demonseed Elite]

And how has said community been harmed?

A couple of scenarios

CGL gets it's act together, retains the license and pays it's debts: Minimal harm, potential loss of talent already gone.
CLG folds: Delay in production likely of a year while new operation spins up, all the problems of above plus the possibility that none of the freelancers return.

Just in the interest of accuracy, there's a third possibility. The license could transfer to a new publisher and that publisher could work out an agreement with Catalyst to get publishing rights to books in the pipeline. Then the freelancers withholding copyright could work with the new license holder to release the copyright, and the new publisher releases the books without much of a hitch in the production schedule.

I know this is an option because it is what happened when FanPro folded and Catalyst took over the license. No one was withholding copyright at the time, but books in the pipeline simply got a Catalyst logo on them instead of a FanPro logo.

[FrankTrollman]

First of all: yes, my account was banned until August of 2037, but as expected my account was reinstated before that.

I agree with AH. As outspoken as I tend to be about Catalyst's mistreatment of freelancers, I'd have preferred that the letter to freelancers was not posted to the public. It accomplished little unless you believed Catalyst's press release word-for-word, in which case I have a bridge I would like to sell you. But it will accomplish a great deal in further breaking down the trust between freelancers and the publisher, trust which up until this point had been mostly damaged by Catalyst, not by the freelancers themselves. But when freelancers start taking communications meant for them to the public, that dynamic changes. I can understand that some freelancers are angry and it's also possible that they didn't realize it would be released publicly, but it does more damage than good.

Let me say first of all, that I understand the rage and anguish that prompted members of the company to give me the information in the first place. But that's not why I agreed to do it.

Yes, releasing information to the wild world outside does not help Catalyst/Freelancer relations. Of course it doesn't. However, I don't really care. Because having looked at what angry people have given me to "get back" at the company - I genuinely don't think there is a future for Catalyst. And I want that fact to be generally known, because I want Topps to know that. I want this information to get out so that Topps can make an informed decision about their license. Because I genuinely believe that the best thing for Shadowrun's future is for Topps to give the license to someone else. Pretty much anyone else, because right now Catalyst does not have the money to pay contracting fees and printing costs to bring out product.

Ancient History and Jennifer Harding have said in print that they have no intention of working for the company without substantial changes. Changes that Randall Bills has said that he has received a sign from God that he will not make. I view this claim as being rather more drastic than a mere corporate puff piece about how things are happening internally and there is an information blackout while that happens. I do not believe that this approach is compatible with Catalyst continuing to be a viable entity. It certainly isn't compatible with me being able to purchase and read a copy of Sixth World Almanac. Because as things currently stand, only a new company with the Shadowrun license could enter into serious negotiations to buy up the contracts to print the material that was written.

The absolute worst thing for the continued printing of Shadowrun books is to have a crippled company that lacks the funds to print materials be left holding the license while the fate of profits from years past languish in multi-year court settlements. That is virtually the only plausible scenario that involves the Sixth World Almanac actually languishing in development hell.

I don't think the freelancers were going to get paid. I don't think that the books were going to be published. And I don't think that any future discussion between Catalyst and the freelancers is capable of mattering. The money is not there, because it was stolen. Randall Bills says that he does not intend to punish the guilty party. The people who were in charge of getting the money back from Loren Coleman have quit. And Randall Bills says that even now, they have not been replaced. The company plan is not a realistic plan. And if Topps knows that, it can give the license to someone else who can pitch a realistic plan. And a new license holder can pay th writers for their work and get that work printed.

That's what it's been about. What it has always been about. Not the revenge fantasies of the people sending me material, but creating a future where Shadowrun is in the hands of a financially solvent company that is not being headed up by an admitted thief.

-Frank

[fistandantilus4....]

1) I noted no part in the letter where Randal Bills claimed to have "received a sign from God." Don't misquote.

2) I'll simply ask nicely not to trash talk on our mods on other forums. Having been suspended, I understand that doesn't leave you a lot of options, and probably some annoyance. Feel free to talk to us. I'd be happy to open a thread on the moderation in the Bugs & News thread, or you can yourself. I've got no problem with talking about the issues you have with us. I just don't want to open an RPG.net account. I do need to get some sleep at the moment though, so I'll be back in a few hours.

[Penta]

Then why not just communicate with Topps?

Why go to the entire damn internet?

[LurkerOutThere]

First of all: yes, my account was banned until August of 2037, but as expected my account was reinstated before that.



Let me say first of all, that I understand the rage and anguish that prompted members of the company to give me the information in the first place. But that's not why I agreed to do it.

I'm guessing that has more to do with fairly blatant attention whoring and love of a good shit storm. I'm reasonably confident somewhere far in the past someone could have hugged you more and so much of this would have been avoided, or at least carried out more constructively.

I genuinely don't think there is a future for Catalyst. And I want that fact to be generally known, because I want Topps to know that. I want this information to get out so that Topps can make an informed decision about their license. Because I genuinely believe that the best thing for Shadowrun's future is for Topps to give the license to someone else. Pretty much anyone else, because right now Catalyst does not have the money to pay contracting fees and printing costs to bring out product.

You don't honestly know that, more importantly you don't know that's the permanent state, what you do want as evidenced by your personal statements is to discredit those involved for personal reasons, deserving or not, because of your personal involvement. You accuse others of duplicity when your own malice is more or less plain to see.

Ancient History and Jennifer Harding have said in print that they have no intention of working for the company without substantial changes. Changes that Randall Bills has said that he has received a sign from God that he will not make. I view this claim as being rather more drastic than a mere corporate puff piece about how things are happening internally and there is an information blackout while that happens. I do not believe that this approach is compatible with Catalyst continuing to be a viable entity.

Regardless of why they might have originally quit or why they will continue not to work for CGL or why CGL will not make those changes is functionally irrelevant. Whether you respect that choice to make it's his call to make. Your obviously upset that it is he and not you that's making that call I get that. But then again you've burned that bridge, so your only dog in this fight is to sling mud as hard and as fast as you can and hope that some of it sticks.

... certainly isn't compatible with me being able to purchase and read a copy of Sixth World Almanac. Because as things currently stand, only a new company with the Shadowrun license could enter into serious negotiations to buy up the contracts to print the material that was written.

Except the concept idea may belong to CGL. The only reason they might sell is to get them out of the financial doldrums after loosing the license. By comparison a new company likely doesn't want to buy said idea if they also must renegotiate with the freelancers for the material rights. Now granted we might see that material under another book name, but at the very least if your stated goal is to protect sixth world almanac your likely going at it the wrong way.

That's what it's been about. What it has always been about. Not the revenge fantasies of the people sending me material, but creating a future where Shadowrun is in the hands of a financially solvent company that is not being headed up by an admitted thief.

-Frank

Your entire last three paragraphs are at the very best conjecture and at the worst some of the finest fantasy creations I've ever seen with you as the shining white night taking on the horrible dragons in your mind. You paint yourself as working for the good of the game when your level of malice and vitrol don't speak to an earnest attempt, or to be blunt, a sound mind.

[JM Hardy]

huh. so, aside from the nda/tos argument, whats the current actual news?

although... interesting reaction to a hacker posting paydata to the jackpoint here.

There is no new news at the moment. I'll post what I can as soon as I can.

Jason H.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Why go to the entire damn internet?

Bigger impact, plain and simple.

Nice? Surely not.

Regardless of why they might have originally quit or why they will continue not to work for CGL or why CGL will not make those changes is functionally irrelevant.

On the contrary, such details are highly relevant to the working state of any organization.

[…] so your only dog in this fight is to sling mud as hard and as fast as you can and hope that some of it sticks.

And you would be doing what, exactly?

Oh, look:

I'm guessing that has more to do with fairly blatant attention whoring and love of a good shit storm.

I'm reasonably confident somewhere far in the past someone could have hugged you more and so much of this would have been avoided, or at least carried out more constructively.

You accuse others of duplicity when your own malice is more or less plain to see.

Your entire last three paragraphs are at the very best conjecture and at the worst some of the finest fantasy creations I've ever seen with you as the shining white night taking on the horrible dragons in your mind. You paint yourself as working for the good of the game when your level of malice and vitrol don't speak to an earnest attempt, or to be blunt, a sound mind.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[fistandantilus4....]

Yeah, I know. But damn it I'm getting some sleep first.

[Sengir]

CGL gets it's act together, retains the license and pays it's debts: Minimal harm, potential loss of talent already gone.
CLG folds: Delay in production likely of a year while new operation spins up, all the problems of above plus the possibility that none of the freelancers return.

Other possible outcomes:
- CGL gets its act together, retains the licence and pays it's debts, but still everything goes to hell and the licences die a slow and horrible death.
- CGL folds, the news license holder rehires all freelancers and steers the universe into a bright future, pre-SR3 books are released as .pdf for free and a god of your choice descends upon MS with all his wrath and smiteth them until they do a good Shadowrun game.



Not all good possibilities involve CGL, and not all bad ones include the pretense that CGL loses the rights. In reality? We will see...

[LurkerOutThere]

On the contrary, such details are highly relevant to the working state of any organization.

Which despite what some folks tell themselves isn't what's at stake here, at least not here on this forum. I will likely be decided in small meeting rooms and at the checkout counter of the FLGS.

And you would be doing what, exactly?

Playing in the mud just like everyone else.

[imperialus]

1) I noted no part in the letter where Randal Bills claimed to have "received a sign from God." Don't misquote.

Yeah... I read it as "after a lot of introspection Randal decided to forgive a man he had been friends with for years. His personal beliefs played a part in that decision." I fail to see a burning bush.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Which despite what some folks tell themselves isn't what's at stake […]

Mostly because there isn't much at stake anymore right now – the people involved have positioned themselves and fallout ensued.

[…] at least not here on this forum.

Indeed – here on this forum, the current state of affairs is just discussed, featuring people involved.

I will likely be decided in small meeting rooms and at the checkout counter of the FLGS.

It's just as likely to be decided in court rooms.

Such speculations are a pretty moot point right now, so we'll just have to wait & see.

[Celt IMC]

If Frank has not been banned for revealing the letter, I withdraw my previous statement regarding DumpShock's behavior, i.e. not bad show. I completely concur that DS is a private entity and the adminstrators are free to ban or suspend whomever they wish for whatever they wish, with or without reason. I just trust and hope they won't do so. I've been in the same position as them and know it can be an unenviable position to exercise ban and suspend power while trying to maintain the trust of the membership.

I'm still glad Frank posted the letter and the freelancer gave it to him to post. I do wish the best for CGL with Shadowrun. But I am not confident in their future. This is indeed something Topps should know about when trying to decide to extend the license.

[Penta]

Yes, but it's soemthing I'm sure even (especially?) Topps would prefer was communicated privately. Not through the internet.

[kzt]

And it's a good thing. DS is the Official forum after all.

No it's not. It's independent and has lots of interaction with writers etc, but official it's not.

Frank should be sued for his actions. He infringed confidentiality. Even if he was a proxy for a ranting freelancer that freelancer should have all his work done under the NDA taken and given to CGL without payment, for the NDA infringement. That freelancer should also post an official excuse to this board or to CGL. He humiliated CGL and should be humiliated in return.

Frank is essentially judgment proof. He's a college student living on government loans in the Czech republic. How are you going to serve him, much less collect?

[Patrick Goodman]

I'm still glad Frank posted the letter and the freelancer gave it to him to post. I do wish the best for CGL with Shadowrun. But I am not confident in their future. This is indeed something Topps should know about when trying to decide to extend the license.

I think Frank's behavior in this whole shitstorm has been reprehensible, as has been the behavior of whoever gave him the insider information. That's neither here nor there; it's no secret that I've never particularly been one of Frank's fans, and this has cemented the reasoning behind it for me.

Your assumption in all this is that Topps is completely, blissfully ignorant of the whole thing. I can all but assure you that they are not. There's an assload of stuff going on behind the scenes, and I can all but guarantee you (based on nothing more than my knowledge of the people involved) that Topps knows that there's a serious situation going on at CGL involving money. I don't know the specifics of the license contract between Topps and CGL, but I think it's reasonably certain that there's a great deal of communication (or at least attempts at communication), through legal channels if necessary, between the two parties. Knowing Randall, he's probably been in contact with them a very great deal recently.

Most of this public bullshit over the last few days, especially the release of Randall's letter, has been completely unnecessary, and seems to have been done only so that more pain and suffering on the part of everyone involved (including Yours Truly here) can be caused, and the existing pain and suffering prolonged.

And, to quote Forrest Gump, that's all I've got to say about that.

[Dread Moores]

So I'm confused here. Frank posted the letter (and should be congratulated for that) because Topps needed to know about it? The letter where it specifically mentioned that CGL made Topps aware of the situation? Well, I'm so glad we had Random Internet Guy to cover that problem!

[Sengir]

Most of this public bullshit over the last few days, especially the release of Randall's letter, has been completely unnecessary

As far as Topps are concerned? Yes, will have far more info than what is given out to freelancers.


As far as the rest of the world goes? The rumor mill wants to know what's going on and how SR will continue.

[RedeemerofOgar]

My question is, where is the ban on posting private correspondence in the ToS?

I can see the religious thing as being against the ToS, but unlike RPG.net, there's no instruction against posting private emails. Also, there's nothing saying you can be banned for being suspected of leaking Shadowrun material; but according to the first post in this thread, that's exactly what happened.

I'm confused. Are there other rules we should be aware of?

Not rules. Laws. A very brief websearch didn't turn up the law itself, but did find this article that references it:

"In a major article examining the strength of legal arguments to protect private e-mail expression, a University of Arkansas law professor concludes that, based on the historical common law, today's Federal Copyright Act does not protect someone from copying and distributing another person's private expression, which means that forwarding e-mail without permission of the sender may be against the law.

"Going back more than 250 years, the common law recognized that authors of personal correspondence hold absolute property rights in their private expression," said Ned Snow, assistant professor of law."

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/529585/

It is therefore potentially in violation of Rule 8.

[Cergorach]

I appreciate the 'leaked' letter, I did not appreciate the insane religious ramble that followed, taking comments so much out of context is looking for trouble where there is none.

Posting a letter to a forum where 100+ freelancers have access to, a lot of whom have some serious issues with the company, and then acting surprised the information 'leaked' is... How shall I say it diplomatically... Having way to much faith in human nature. And when I talk about 'faith' I'm not talking religion.

That also leads me to believe that maybe to much faith is placed in other things, things like "It will work out.", and the ability of the Colemans to pay back the money owed in a decent time frame. I have no way of gouging that because I don't personally know the parties involved. All I can do is speculate at this point.

As for Frank's motivations, he's either a crusader or someone with an axe to grind (he might even be someone hired to discredit CGL (owners) so another party can step in and can take over). Either way, he's using the internet quite effectively, this stuff is getting a lot of 'press', and is reaching a lot of ears.

I can understand why fans are getting angry, but they need to take a serious step back, and take a reality check. You buy a book the price of a couple of McDonalds meals, that doesn't mean you suddenly own or have invested with a company producing that book. You didn't buy a 3 year support contract, you bought a book! There are a bunch of freelancers who have worked hard and haven't been paid, for a lot of them it's a pretty big chunk of cash. Then we have the co owner who is going to miss money in the region that most of us would have to work 5-10 years to acquire. To to mention that he might loose his company that he has spend way more time building up then most of us have spent playing the game(s) and possibly further income. If he can forgive what has happened, why the frag are kids on these forums making such a bloody big stink? Yes, it's going to suck if you have less or no new books, but get some perspective!

[Cain]

As for Frank's motivations, he's either a crusader or someone with an axe to grind (he might even be someone hired to discredit CGL (owners) so another party can step in and can take over). Either way, he's using the internet quite effectively, this stuff is getting a lot of 'press', and is reaching a lot of ears.

Or both. I may think Frank's doing the right things for the right reasons, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have an axe to grind as well.

I can understand why fans are getting angry, but they need to take a serious step back, and take a reality check. You buy a book the price of a couple of McDonalds meals, that doesn't mean you suddenly own or have invested with a company producing that book. You didn't buy a 3 year support contract, you bought a book! There are a bunch of freelancers who have worked hard and haven't been paid, for a lot of them it's a pretty big chunk of cash. Then we have the co owner who is going to miss money in the region that most of us would have to work 5-10 years to acquire. To to mention that he might loose his company that he has spend way more time building up then most of us have spent playing the game(s) and possibly further income. If he can forgive what has happened, why the frag are kids on these forums making such a bloody big stink? Yes, it's going to suck if you have less or no new books, but get some perspective!

If you bought a pdf of, say, Vice on DriveThruRpg.net, you may not be able to download all five times due to the flap at Catalyst. That means it does directly affect your pocketbook.

[Cergorach]

If you bought a pdf of, say, Vice on DriveThruRpg.net, you may not be able to download all five times due to the flap at Catalyst. That means it does directly affect your pocketbook.

That's a beef with DTRPG, if they say that you can download it five times, then they have a problem with you.

[Stahlseele]

Not rules. Laws. A very brief websearch didn't turn up the law itself, but did find this article that references it:

"In a major article examining the strength of legal arguments to protect private e-mail expression, a University of Arkansas law professor concludes that, based on the historical common law, today's Federal Copyright Act does not protect someone from copying and distributing another person's private expression, which means that forwarding e-mail without permission of the sender may be against the law.

"Going back more than 250 years, the common law recognized that authors of personal correspondence hold absolute property rights in their private expression," said Ned Snow, assistant professor of law."

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/529585/

It is therefore potentially in violation of Rule 8.

And yet all e-mail-programs have the forwarding button in them O.o

[Sengir]

Not rules. Laws. A very brief websearch didn't turn up the law itself, but did find this article that references it:

"In a major article examining the strength of legal arguments to protect private e-mail expression, a University of Arkansas law professor concludes that, based on the historical common law, today's Federal Copyright Act does not protect someone from copying and distributing another person's private expression, which means that forwarding e-mail without permission of the sender may be against the law.

"Going back more than 250 years, the common law recognized that authors of personal correspondence hold absolute property rights in their private expression," said Ned Snow, assistant professor of law."

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/529585/

Yes, the original author of a text holds the copyright for it. Once the author starts distributing text to a more-or-less well defined group (as opposed to a clearly stated list of five people, for example) and things like fair use rear their heads, things get far less clean cut.


PS: Not that this is any more than academic question by now. The net never forgets.