CGL speculation #4 Options

[fistandantilus4....]

CGL speculation #1 pg. 1-28
CGL speculation #2 pg. 1-10
CGL speculation #3 pg.1-50

OK folks, in an effort to keep things a little more streamlined and easy to reference, we're closing up the previous beast of a thread, and moving it to a brand new page 1.

Enjoy, play nice.

[toturi]

No... and here I was hoping it could beat the "Horrors vs Humans" thread for thread length! Go Humans! (except the people responsible for creating this crisis, feed them to the Horrors, I say)

[Stahlseele]

The Quest for more Money?
I like it Fisty, that's funny ^^

[BlueMax]

The Quest for more Money?
I like it Fisty, that's funny ^^

I believe its a Spaceballs 2 reference.

But you youngns may have newer references for the phrase.


BlueMax

[Stahlseele]

Spaceballs 2. Kinda like CGL on payment, Brooks never delivered <.<
And i'm still waiting for History of the World Part 2 too! "Yews in Space!"

[dirkformica]

So what was the latest development in the prior 3.0 thread? I think it was that the salaried person looking at the Catalyst finances was asked to falsify records by Loren L. Coleman and that Randall Bills told her that if she had a problem with that she should leave? Is that about right?

[Grexul]

You know, I am quite displeased.

In the past, I will post something and the thread just ups dies on me. Not just here but on RPGnet and several other forums as well. There are a handful of close acquaintances that refer to me as the Thread Killer. Time and again I have posted here in the hopes that my supernatural ability will take hold and yet this thread refuses to die.

So, in the words of Captain Kirk, "Like a poor marksman you keep missing the target!"

I take aim once more and seek to kill this thread!

All hail the great Threadkiller!

So to recap; CGL is divesting itself of everything but the two core properties Battletech and Shadowrun in an effort to focus on strengthening those lines and straightening out their financial woes.
To date some, but not all freelancers have received some payments due, an alleged plan to keep the BT and SR licences is in motion, but the person at the heart of the problem is still in control. Hoo Boy!

Grexul

[FrankTrollman]

So what was the latest development in the prior 3.0 thread? I think it was that the salaried person looking at the Catalyst finances was asked to falsify records by Loren L. Coleman and that Randall Bills told her that if she had a problem with that she should leave? Is that about right?

Our latest development was reviving the age old debate between free will and determinism. With Cain arguing that Loren Coleman asking Jenifer Harding to falsify financial records with Randall Bills' knowledge was equivalent to firing her. On the grounds that since she would not make any other choice but to resign in the face of being asked to potentially break the law by her superiors that the request was functionally identical to asking for her resignation. On the other side, we had Jennifer Harding herself taking the side of free will, noting that she could have chosen to prepare and present false financial results to Topps and possibly the IRS - thus emphasizing her exercise of choice in leaving the company.

It's a fairly limited argument, since of course regardless of whether she chose to resign or was destined to resign by the wheels set in motion by the unlawful request - the fact remains that the past is immutable. Not matter what happens now, she did resign in March. The past is, of course, immutable.

So the timeline she presented was that she was given the edict to falsify royalty reports to Topps. Then she brought this to Randal Bills and said that she could not possibly do that. Randall Bills suggested apparently that if she did not feel comfortable with working in a company that would put her in such a position that she could quit. And she quit.

Now Cain says that however nicely Randall put that statement, it's functionally the same as saying "falsify those reports or clean out your desk." Jennifer Harding says that no one controls her destiny but herself and that she personally made the decision to clean out her desk. While much virtual ink was spilled over this distinction, honestly it doesn't seem like much of a distinction. While I am sure there were other choices that could have been made - remaining nominally at her desk while passively declining to fabricate royalty reports to Topps for example - it is demonstrable fact that in that situation Jennifer Harding was not going to make any of them. Her ethics required that she quit the company under those circumstances - ethics that existed prior to her being put in that situation by Loren and Randall.

Next up: Dumpshock debates Solipsism, the Problem of Induction, and the existence of language as an entity that persists outside the mind of a single observer.

-Frank

[Ashrum the Black]

Frank, I just have to say, that was about the funniest, and most concise recap of recent events I have ever read.

Thanks man, you just made my day.


-Ashrum

[AngelisStorm]

Just wanted to jump in while #4 was still on the first page. *waves to all the people who will inevitably read this thread*

When we get around to them, sign me up for the Solipsism and language arguments Frank.

And, to remind us all of the good parts of the former thread: woo belly button rings and genie outfits!

(P.S. Humans can totally take the Horrors.)

[Kid Chameleon]

All hail the great Threadkiller!

So to recap; CGL is divesting itself of everything but the two core properties Battletech and Shadowrun in an effort to focus on strengthening those lines and straightening out their financial woes.
To date some, but not all freelancers have received some payments due, an alleged plan to keep the BT and SR licences is in motion, but the person at the heart of the problem is still in control. Hoo Boy!

Grexul

Actually, CGL still has Paparazzi, High School Drama, Merchants and the upcoming Leviathans and Balance of Power.

[LurkerOutThere]

In the interest of spin control, or in this case reality grounding I will repost Tiger Eyes aka Jennifer H. and let her words speak for themselves.

Ok, folks, you keep invoking my name. Hence, I am here. My genie outfit is pink and glittery, and matches my amethyst belly-button ring.

I have stated earlier in this thread that I quit after being asked by Loren Coleman to falsify royalty reports to Topps. That request violated my ethical standards. Whether it violated other things, such as legal issues, I HAVE NOT speculated on, preferring to leave it in the hands of legal authorities--which is frankly, where it belongs. To be even more blunt, I quit when, after being informed of the request by Loren to falsify royalty reports, Randall Bills stated that Loren was the best person to carry on all negotiations with Topps, the SR/BT license holder. I found this decision even more upsetting to my personal ethics than the original request, since I had been assured by Randall that certain behaviors were going to be halted, and they were (blatantly) not.

There. Once and for all. I quit for reasons of personal ethics.

AND

That is correct, Randall Bills did not ask me to falsify the royalty reports. However, after he was informed of multiple issues I was having, he told me that if I did not feel I was able to work with Loren or felt what I was being asked to do was unethical, I should leave. He was also fully aware of Loren's request when he placed Loren in the lead for negotiating with Topps.

So even though Jennifer's actions are supposedly the start of all this (as far as bringing much of it to light or being a touch stone often cited for how bad things are) and she has stated her reasons for leaving were her own Frank and Cain will put their fingers in their ears and hum when it doesn't fit their world view. Personally, if someone told me "there there dear, you didn't really choose to quit, you were forced out" when it came to leaving my passion I'd be pretty insulted, but that's neither here nor there.

As to what has changed recently:
Checks are going out to some freelancers based on a schema that CGL is unwilling to discuss, however by my own and others speculation it's part of a multistep process to keep books on shelves or within development windows.
The connecting non-CGL non-BT/SR portions of the enterprise are being spun out and turned in including transfering produced hard materials as part of an effort to clear outstanding debts. While this is news it's not suprising to me at least giving some of the folks leaving the company. This could be seen as the formal announcement.

There I've done my part to reset the proverbial scales.

[Dwight]

Has anyone actually taken Cain's assertions/posts seriously?

I understand JM Hardy having to read them, and occasionally respond to them. PR is part of his job and sometimes that involves reading all matter of things that people are tossing out there. But I just skip Cain's posts...more fervently than usual.

EDIT: Frank's posts occasionally have sprinklings of information in them. Sure you have to dig through the elephant droppings of his wild speculations to find those few peanuts of information. But at least there are a few peanuts there to find.

[ketjak]

Actually, CGL still has Paparazzi, High School Drama, Merchants and the upcoming Leviathans and Balance of Power.

There is no money to print any of the "upcoming" titles or reprint the others when they still are in arrears to Topps and IMR's many creditors to the degree they are. To say otherwise is misleading, Ken, since you have seen the same information I have.

I hope they can pull a rabbit out of the hat and save the company and retain the two core licenses, but with only the insane, carefree or negligent willing to give them money and Topps now evidently having access to people who have publicly stated Randall and Loren L. Coleman asked them to falsify royalty reports, I can't imagine any cash flow will remain positive that they do not directly control. This ignores the potential accounting and legal issues one can get into in situations like this - how long until "defending against the Government" becomes their primary activity? That isn't cheap or quick and easy like I like my dates.

If it does come to that, where are they going to get the money to make that defense?

If it doesn't come to that, do the other LLC members really want someone who is either careless enough to "co-mingle" funds or avaricious enough not to care as the President? Randall might have been a good choice, but his recent business decisions (including "permit Troy to sell product while their copyright is revoked by "forgetting"" and "Loren L. Coleman is the best person to lead and represent this company" and "Loren will remain active in the business as more than a freelancer") and apparent ethical choices (such as apparently "falsify these reports" and "Loren L. Coleman is the best person to lead and represent this company" and that other one about the convicted child toucher) and apparent legal choices (including apparently "falsify these reports" and apparently extorting the company in front of other directors should this come to light) make it clear he is unsuited on many levels to lead at all, let alone a company on fire. But since Loren L. Coleman is calling the shots and still has access to the checkbook, I guess that's a moot issue anyway.

It was entirely avoidable, too, even if one steps in about when Jennifer did after the embezzlement occurred. But again, Randall N. Bills and Loren L. Coleman and Heather J. Coleman made choices to suppress and ignore this as long as possible then refuse to make the obvious choices (like "remove Loren L. Coleman and Heather from the operations of the business"), and here we are on Dumpshock.

There are many possible futures, and sadly I see few of them with IMR emerging as a functional business holding the two key licenses. Meh - less likely things have happened.

- Ket

[urgru]

There is no money to print any of the "upcoming" titles or reprint the others when they still are in arrears to Topps and IMR's many creditors to the degree they are. To say otherwise is misleading, Ken, since you have seen the same information I have

. . . and apparent ethical choices (such as . . . that other one about the convicted child toucher) and apparent legal choices (including apparently "falsify these reports" and apparently extorting the company in front of other directors should this come to light) make it clear he is unsuited on many levels to lead at all, let alone a company on fire. But since Loren L. Coleman is calling the shots and still has access to the checkbook . . .

Can you source some of these claims? Ethical choices regarding child molestation? That's a totally new/left-field issue. I don't think anyone, even Frank, has previously suggested there was a conspiracy b/w Coleman and Bills to "extort" the other LLC members. Nor has anyone told us what the new financial processes are at Catalyst (e.g. whether Loren L. Coleman can still cut checks). While I don't doubt the latter given Randall's stance in the freelancer letter, I'm really curious 1) if you can source these things and 2) if you can, how are you getting the same information that's available to Ken, who's been ID'ed as one of the LLC members/owners?

[MindandPen]

So what was the latest development in the prior 3.0 thread? I think it was that the salaried person looking at the Catalyst finances was asked to falsify records by Loren L. Coleman and that Randall Bills told her that if she had a problem with that she should leave? Is that about right?

You forgot the belly button ring, and the lone star cop mounting the unicorn. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[MindandPen]

There is no money to print any of the "upcoming" titles or reprint the others when they still are in arrears to Topps and IMR's many creditors to the degree they are. To say otherwise is misleading, Ken, since you have seen the same information I have.
[- snip -]

Out of curiosity, are you involved as one of the members of the LLC? If you can't / won't /don't want to answer, I understand. I was just curious as to how the LLC was set up and if the other members can remove offending parties.

[FrankTrollman]

I can't imagine any cash flow will remain positive that they do not directly control. This ignores the potential accounting and legal issues one can get into in situations like this - how long until "defending against the Government" becomes their primary activity? That isn't cheap or quick and easy like I like my dates.

If it does come to that, where are they going to get the money to make that defense?

Well... it's coming from somewhere. I count what, five lawyers right now? Or is it down to three again? It's hard to tell which lawyers are still "on the case" and which ones the Colemans just stopped talking to after they didn't like what they heard. But in any case, I can see a pretty simple place for the money to come from.

We're at, what, seven hundred and twenty six thousand dollars in missing money from "co-mingled" funds, fake checks, and straight up cash withdrawals for unexplained expenses. Plus another estimated one hundred and twenty thousand in missing product and under reported convention takings. The Coleman estate is indeed impressive, and they had it built in 2007, back when real estate costs a might bit more than it does now. But let's be clear here: it "only" costs $650,000 in 2010 money, and they have a mortgage. Most of the money is straight up unaccounted for in all that, profligate as it is. If they want to tap out for a wall of litigation, I don't see what any of the members of the angry mob can do to stop them.

I estimate that between pre-royalties, labor, and printing costs, that getting Shadowrun started up again with a year of reasonably timed releases would cost roughly half a million dollars. And it would make that back rather easily in that year if distributors could be convinced to hire on. Selling 50,000 books from five or six titles ain't no big thing for a new edition of Shadowrun with the interest generated by a grand reopening. And distributors are interested in this product because it will sell. For money. Right in the middle of the hell storm, PSI added Catalyst to their friends list. If Loren Coleman wasn't in full paranoia mode in his tower of crimson tape, he'd probably be able to shell out that kind of start-up money from his pocket. In cash. Assuming of course that Topps would take him back, which I have difficulty imagining them doing.

Of course, the Colemans are in full paranoia mode: lambasting various freelancers for being "the leak," disabling all the freelancer accounts that haven't been used for a month to try to eliminate "back doors" (hint: if someone has been getting unauthorized access to your data stream in the last 30 days, it wasn't through logins that haven't been used in the last 30 days), and of course, trolling the seas of legal council trying to find someone who thinks they can win.

Bottom line: if you think that you can starve out Loren Coleman from the moist and delicious taste of legal defense, even after you manage to get him to stop billing his family lawyer to the company, you're fooling yourself.

-Frank

[LurkerOutThere]

At this point do you intend to wikileak a source document for any of these numbers or are we just all supposed to put credence in a guy who obviously has an axe to grind, no matter how legitimate.

[ravensmuse]

You know, as much as I don't like Frank's tone, attitude, general presence, you can't disagree that if it wasn't for him, none of this would have come out. As much as people would like to deny it, it isn't like he's making things out of whole cloth. Numerous people have come out to pretty much confirm what he's been saying.

And on that note, Cain has actually been restrained, for Caine's posting style. He's actually got some points for being remarkably level headed as one of the oldbies hanging around here.

[FrankTrollman]

Can you source some of these claims? Ethical choices regarding child molestation? That's a totally new/left-field issue. I don't think anyone, even Frank, has previously suggested there was a conspiracy b/w Coleman and Bills to "extort" the other LLC members. Nor has anyone told us what the new financial processes are at Catalyst (e.g. whether Loren L. Coleman can still cut checks). While I don't doubt the latter given Randall's stance in the freelancer letter, I'm really curious 1) if you can source these things and 2) if you can, how are you getting the same information that's available to Ken, who's been ID'ed as one of the LLC members/owners?

Ketjak is a part owner of IMR LLC. So he would count as a primary source.

The child molestation issue wasn't brought up before, hopefully it won't be brought up again. I personally don't think it's relevant to anything. If a man does time for sex crimes - or any crimes - then they have indeed already paid the price for their transgression. You don't put them in charge of youngsters unattended or whatever, but let's be clear here: IMR has no positions of trust over underage girls. Or boys even. I do not regard the decision to bring on someone with that kind of history as being an example of poor judgement. The inter-office poo fight over whether he "really did it" or not is completely irrelevant (and frankly exhaustingly stupid). The courts say he did, but the courts also say the punishment is finished. In my opinion, that is all that needs to be said. He did it, it's over, he's allowed back into society. End of discussion.

As for extortion: as things currently stand, Loren Coleman and Randall Bills have the power to just... stop... selling... product. The company is crashing and burning yes, but Coleman and Bills can take it to Earth much faster if they want to. The other owners are owed a lot of money, and they aren't getting it back without a court settlement unless they do things Loren and Randall's way and have the money sent to them voluntarily. Weirdly, Loren Coleman has a lot of power over the other owners right now.

-Frank

[Bull]

I'm going to throw this out there for people on both sides of this little argument:

Put up or shut up.

If you're claiming to have insider knowledge, whether as a freelancer, employee, shareholder, or just the night watchman, post your credentials. Same goes for everyone who is posting their "insider knowledge". Post your name. Post your affiliation, past, present or future. Have your "Source" come forward.

Put up, or shut up. Anything else is mindless hot air from folks either trying to defend CGL or folks trying to defame it (Some with an obvious grudge).

If you're too cowardly to step forward, you don;t have the right to be heard. If you're too worried about "professionalism" and potential "future work in the industry", you shouldn't be running your mouth in the first place.

I have a lot of respect for Jennifer to do what she's done and to say what she's said. Same goes for Bobby. I also have a lot of respect for folks in the middle of this that have decided to be professionals and wait for things to blow over, like Adam and Bishop.

I have none for folks that are coming in and waving their dicks around behind masks of internet anonymity. No respect, and in my eyes, you have no credibility.

Steven "Bull" Ratkovich, Freelancer, Playtester, Missions Coordinator

[Demonseed Elite]

I think everyone knows who I am, but in case they don't...

Jay "Demonseed Elite" Levine, former Shadowrun freelancer (2000 - 2008)

[urgru]

@Frank: Thanks for confirming the relationships at issue.

[BlueMax]

@Bull You may not believe how many times I've had to use that same line on players.

As to an internal fight between founders, these things can get ugly. Any SF Bay tikiphiles who survived the Martin Cate/Forbidden Island hoopla know what I am talking about.

It wont serve anyone to see it all here on the forum. Well, not any higher purpose but perhaps as entertainment.

Heck, thats why I watch these threads with my popcorn handy.

So actually, keep going. But remember, this *is* the internet and won't likely win you anything.

BlueMax