Teach me to face., Or what the heck do I\you do with social character? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Meriss]

I'm not much of a social butterfly. So I guess I don't always see the point of being a Social character achetype.

But forgive me for asking what does a Face do during a run beyond negoitating with Mr. J., schmoozing contacts for more goodies and the occaisional Q/A?

Don't just feed me skill thoughts here agng, talk to me in terms of generalities, examples and so forth. Lets get a nice discussion going. Show me your favourite builds/chars. Stories. C'mon gang! Lets really do some schooling

[DireRadiant]

The face can, research, find people to research, get other people to research, investigate, ask people people for information, infiltrate the facility through social engineering, get the passwords and accounts through social engineering, recruit an insider to help, talk the gang out of causing you problems, talk the gang into helping you, convince the star to be bribed to let you pass the checkpoint with all that cyber, convince the star that those other guys did it, and a whole bunch of other cools things to comp[letely do the run without any help from hackers, TMs, Riggers, Physads, mystic adepts, Sammies, Mages and all those other useless people.

[Mantis]

I've got a couple of good ones for faces. We ran the Denver Missions campaign and in the first adventure you have to move this envelope from point A to B. A bunch of different people want it and try to stop you. As scripted, the team gets stopped by both the Yakuza and the triads who want the envelope. It was supposed to be either give it up or fight it out kind of scenario. Our face pulls an old jedi mind trick out of his and convinces both groups that our team is actually just decoys and someone else has the envelope. He rolled really well on the con roll and role played the encounter well too. Net result, the team continues without a fight or pissing off either group or our employers. Job well done.
The second time he pulls off this type of mojo is in a later Denver Mission where the team has to convince a gang to either join the Vory or else go back to their original sponsor gang. This whole run could have been just strong armed but the face convinces the parties involved to do whats best for the gang and finishes without a shot being fired. He only kind of pissed off the sponsor gang and that more because it was scripted that way than anything he actually did. The rest of the team felt a little superfluous on that run as they never even pulled out weapons.
So in sort, a good face can get you out of tricky situations where most others see it as a fight or flight type thing. Plus they can get you that rare gear you wanted with the insane availability.

[Ol' Scratch]

Sadly, it's one of those roles you have to really like and even have a natural knack for. Die rolls only help a Face so much. Most of it is knowing how to talk, who to talk to, and when to talk to them. It's easily the most roleplaying-dependent character type in the game. Sure, you can rely on your dice pools for everything, but it's been my observation over the years that people who do that end up disliking the Face character type. Since, as said, it's very much a roleplaying character type.

That said, a Face does a lot more than just hanging out with contacts, securing gear, or performing legwork. While the Covert Ops Specialist will try to sneak around some guards and the Gun Bunny will try to blow them to bits, the Face will walk up to them with a charming smile and con his way past them. Possibly getting a pass or even an escort to walk him through the remaining security checkpoints if he's really good.

Just look at film and television for more examples and role models. The archetype is arguably even named after one of the best examples; Face from the A-Team. Then you have examples like Robert Redford's character in S.N.E.A.K.E.R.S. or, hell, even Bill Murray in Ghostbusters. There's a ton of examples of what a Face does and what they are. Social Skills are (in my opinion anyway) the most powerful skills in the game, trumping even magic. You just have to have a cunning player behind the character.

[Critias]

For the best example of a primarily social character that I can recall from fairly modern cinema -- and one that even has kind of a Shadowrun feel to it -- check out the Gone Baby Gone. That's a character that knows everybody, has connections all through his area, and found a way to make a living by talking to people and being perceptive (plus carrying a gun).

That said? Keep in mind that a Face doesn't have to be purely social, and hands-down worthless at everything else. You can still pick up a few combat skills, some driving, electronics, whatever floats your boat. Heck, there are plenty of magical types out there that pick Charisma as one of their tradition's attributes, and could sling fast-talk dice with the best of 'em.

[X-Kalibur]

For good social engineering/ Face work as well, you have Burn Notice. And really, how can any show with Bruce Campbell be bad?

[tete]

A good Face is just that the Face of the team. He/She can walk into the target building, grab the loot and walk out without security being the wiser. The Face role being effective really depends alot on your GMs style though. If its more kick in the door gun battles, your going to die alot.

[Ascalaphus]

Leverage also has a lot of examples of how a face can contribute to a party. Sophie is clearly a Face, but almost all the members do it from time to time.

[Bearclaw]

I'm replaying Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines as a Toreador. It's amazing how many situations have come up where I've just talked people into stuff, where in previous times through I had to sneak or fight.
Same with playing a face. A good face can walk past a security desk, talk their way through an ID check at a border or convince the stormtroopers that they're looking for different droids. Basically a good face wins several fights on his own by not making it a fight.

[Samoth]

Faces aren't always Elven prettyboys with max charisma and a Brinks truck of dice.

Try making the biggest, meanest, ugliest Trog that you can. I'm talking max body and strength, and charisma as close to negative as you can get. Pump him full of the most obviously threatening cyber, give him nasty guns and comically oversized blades, big ass troll modified Harley Scorpion, and a high intimidation skill. Watch as everyone cowers in fear and gives him whatever he wants anyway.

[Warlordtheft]

For good social engineering/ Face work as well, you have Burn Notice. And really, how can any show with Bruce Campbell be bad?

There is an awful lot of planning that goes into the jobs the main character does as well. Excellent show for those needing an example of a shadowrun team of the mirrored shades professional types (IMHO).

[D2F]

Faces aren't always Elven prettyboys with max charisma and a Brinks truck of dice.

Try making the biggest, meanest, ugliest Trog that you can. I'm talking max body and strength, and charisma as close to negative as you can get. Pump him full of the most obviously threatening cyber, give him nasty guns and comically oversized blades, big ass troll modified Harley Scorpion, and a high intimidation skill. Watch as everyone cowers in fear and gives him whatever he wants anyway.

While that would constitute as a "social front", it's not a "face". Also, Intimidation is a charisma based skill (since charisma is not visual appearance, but presence among other things. It is mostly how you can influence your social environment (regardless of the direction of your influence). You can be butt ugly, huge, muscled up the wazoo and STILL fail to intimidate people (granted, that is difficult, but possible).

The role of a face, however is not just to be your social calling card, but also your main connector to information. Beyond that he is also your social facilitator. That includes disguise, palming, trickery, conivery and other means of "infiltration" in broad daylight.

It would be very hard for the troll from your excemple to act in that role.

[KnightRunner]

For good social engineering/ Face work as well, you have Burn Notice. And really, how can any show with Bruce Campbell be bad?

Leverage also has a lot of examples of how a face can contribute to a party. Sophie is clearly a Face, but almost all the members do it from time to time.

I would argue that it is easier to complete a mission with a party full of faces than it is with a party full of sammies. Faces can just simply push aside any problem technical, physical, or magical with the clever application of BS.

In the TV examples above, social engineering is far more common than any other skillset. Even the "muscle" characters apply their social skill more than they do their martial ones. Fiona is a gun toting badass street sam in a pleasant package, but she can play the con as well as anyone else. Same with Eliot, who is an adept if I ever seen one. He is a combat monster, but more often relies, begrudgingly, on his Con skill.

[Wandering One]

While that would constitute as a "social front", it's not a "face". Also, Intimidation is a charisma based skill (since charisma is not visual appearance, but presence among other things. It is mostly how you can influence your social environment (regardless of the direction of your influence). You can be butt ugly, huge, muscled up the wazoo and STILL fail to intimidate people (granted, that is difficult, but possible).

The role of a face, however is not just to be your social calling card, but also your main connector to information. Beyond that he is also your social facilitator. That includes disguise, palming, trickery, conivery and other means of "infiltration" in broad daylight.

It would be very hard for the troll from your excemple to act in that role.

Well, there's also the idea that the face is the guy when he's done with the con, the security guard gives him his number and says call him anytime he needs some help again. The troll, on the other hand, has his license plate copied, sent to Knight Errant along with pictures, the guard's fired for having no cohones, and your face is on every telephone pole for two miles.

[nezumi]

From a security standpoint, the weakest point is ALMOST ALWAYS people. A computer can be secured to the point that it will take, literally, billions of years to break into it. While any facility can be broken into eventually, properly done it will resist even organized teams of professionals from breaking in for days - and not without being noticed. Technology has a very, very low failure rate. Humans, however, have a very high one. They help their 'friends'. They share information. The hold open doors for each other. And that doesn't touch on spirits who, depending on how you play them, may be conned or encouraged just as easily, or moreso, than your average guard.

The face is a specialist who has looked at the weakest point in every organization, and trained in how to exploit it. The face can out-hack the hacker, disarm the gun bunny, cheat the mage, and seduce the adept.

[sn0mm1s]

A good Face is just that the Face of the team. He/She can walk into the target building, grab the loot and walk out without security being the wiser. The Face role being effective really depends alot on your GMs style though. If its more kick in the door gun battles, your going to die alot.

It isn't just kick in gun door battles that cause a face to die. In general, a *great* face won't be able to just walk in and take any significant loot unnoticed without a GM being very lenient. It is way too easy to have a face lose 5 to 10+ dice from their Con pool not to mention passing retinal scanners, fingerprint scanners, rfid scanners, voice scanners, facial recognition scanners, breath scanners, olfactory scanners, cyberware scanners etc. etc. etc. Clever mages may protect their lab by requiring a specific astral *signature* to be seen by a spirit to avoid raising an alarm or just the whole awakened vs. mundane aura can cause problems. The target item itself may have a hidden rfid tag.

[nezumi]

As an aside, one thing you're going to realize, in order to RUN a face, is the necessity of props, technical lingo and knowledge, and contacts.

Props are things like IDs, badges, uniforms, fingerprint kits, computer IDs, etc. They range from the trivial to the VERY expensive.
Technical lingo and knowledge is required to pretend to be someone you're not - the auditor, a visitor from another office, the new employee, someone from the field, a police officer, etc.
Contacts basically fill in the gaps - who is the manager in the office. How do I get my name added as a user. Where does Joe eat dinner.

Buying Contacts is tough - 90% of them will never be useful. But the one that does become useful will save the day. My general focus is to avoid the general contacts (fixers, etc.) and focus on specialized contacts. Get a few who provide a particular good or service you'll need (gun runners, smugglers, shoemaker, corp. decker), a few who make the world run (politicians, government employees, corporate drones), and a few who have access to a lot of information (news reporters, politicians, R&D folk).

Buying knowledge can be done very muchso using the old knowsoft. Cheap and easy.

As for tools... The books barely touch on these. I don't know where the definitive source is for this. SotA64 had some good stuff, but still not comprehensive. Maybe someone should make a list of those things, really.

[tete]

It isn't just kick in gun door battles that cause a face to die. In general, a *great* face won't be able to just walk in and take any significant loot unnoticed without a GM being very lenient. It is way too easy to have a face lose 5 to 10+ dice from their Con pool not to mention passing retinal scanners, fingerprint scanners, rfid scanners, voice scanners, facial recognition scanners, breath scanners, olfactory scanners, cyberware scanners etc. etc. etc. Clever mages may protect their lab by requiring a specific astral *signature* to be seen by a spirit to avoid raising an alarm or just the whole awakened vs. mundane aura can cause problems. The target item itself may have a hidden rfid tag.

Respectfully disagree, for reasons that most people mentioned above. Anything you can come up with as a GM a Face should be able to get around by social engineering. If a person can get in then that person can be manipulated, copied, etc. The problem I've found is the Shadowrun GMs who take the Me vs the Players approach and even though the Face thought of everything a random guard attacks. "Cus its not fun without combat" or "I wont let you get out that easy from foiling my BBEG"

[sn0mm1s]

Respectfully disagree, for reasons that most people mentioned above. Anything you can come up with as a GM a Face should be able to get around by social engineering. If a person can get in then that person can be manipulated, copied, etc. The problem I've found is the Shadowrun GMs who take the Me vs the Players approach and even though the Face thought of everything a random guard attacks. "Cus its not fun without combat" or "I wont let you get out that easy from foiling my BBEG"

Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.

[KnightRunner]

Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.

What exactly is your point here? That the face will not work because he could get a bad die roll? How is that not going to be the situation for any archetype in any shadowrun?

But umm yeah how does the level of security change the basic premise?

[Warlordtheft]

Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.

And this is where the GM has to go the sandbox route vs script route. Be consistent with what is there, and don't change it up if the players come up with a plan to make their lives easy (+1 Karma for a good plan I always say).

[sn0mm1s]

What exactly is your point here? That the face will not work because he could get a bad die roll? How is that not going to be the situation for any archetype in any shadowrun?

But umm yeah how does the level of security change the basic premise?

My point is that a face with some antisecurity devices is not a 1 man crew as many in this thread seem to suggest. *Especially* in areas with a lot of different security devices.

[Ol' Scratch]

Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.

First, how is "just rolling Con" any different than, say, "just rolling Pistols" or any other skill? And why would they just be using Con anyway? If you have a player with a Face character who's only rolling dice, please see my first post in this thread.

Second, why on earth would you think no one would notice a Face doing that? A Face's entire point of being is to be noticed. By as many people as possible, usually. The whole point is that, at the very least, they're providing a distraction for the rest of their team if not outright trying to seduce, befriend, con, or fool their way past sentient beings and into secure areas. They don't rely on guns or stealth. Those are all secondary if not tertiary concerns. And like any other type of character, they don't use just one tactic. If anything, a good Face has to rely on a wide array of tactics, tricks, and gadgets to get the job done. Probably more so than most.

And finally, despite your belief to the contrary, I'd argue that a Face is the one character type that could solo most runs in the game.

[Eratosthenes]

The Face shouldn't be able to just walk up to a guard, roll some Con dice, and walk past. He needs a story, and/or corroborating evidence. And besides, a good face wouldn't necessarily be trying to Con the guard, anyhow.

He'd start with someone who works there. Maybe he convinces a mid-level manager that they should bring him in for an interview, or to consult on a project. Maybe he convinces head of security that they need an upgrade to technomancer-proof their systems. Or maybe he just dresses up like one of the working stiffs, and acts like he belongs, walking in with a crowd of workers when they arrive for their shift.

It's been done a lot in real life; I recall reading an article detailing how one man (who was finally caught) had managed to waltz into many large companies, and walk out with valuable laptops on a regular basis, despite them having security in place. Or for the perfect example, look at the recent snafu with the uninvited guests at the White House. Sometimes if you just act like you belong, people think you belong.

Social Engineering also refers to setting up situations that cause someone to divulge more secret information that can be used to access their records, steal their identity, etc. or otherwise conning them into doing something they wouldn't normally do.

A high-security facility might not let a person walk in without a retinal scan, but who's to say you can't convince someone on the inside to let you in, or even bring your target out to you? Just like a gunfighter has to use tactics, and cover, instead of waltzing in a'blazing, so does the Face have to apply strategy and tactics to how exactly they'll pull off the con.

[KnightRunner]

My point is that a face with some antisecurity devices is not a 1 man crew as many in this thread seem to suggest. *Especially* in areas with a lot of different security devices.

I do agree that a diverse group of shadowrunner with varying resources is the preferred way to go. But that does not change that assertion that a face can be useful in any situation. imho More so than any other archetype. Which by the way is what I and others were trying to say. Not that they are a one man wrecking crew.

[sn0mm1s]

First, how is "just rolling Con" any different than, say, "just rolling Pistols" or any other skill? And why would they just be using Con anyway? If you have a player with a Face character who's only rolling dice, please see my first post in this thread.

It isn't any different... which is exactly my point. I don't expect some pistols/demolition expert to waltz into a heavily secured area solo either.

Second, why on earth would you think no one would notice a Face doing that? A Face's entire point of being is to be noticed. By as many people as possible, usually. The whole point is that, at the very least, they're providing a distraction for the rest of their team if not outright trying to seduce, befriend, con, or fool their way past sentient beings and into secure areas. They don't rely on guns or stealth. Those are all secondary if not tertiary concerns. And like any other type of character, they don't use just one tactic. If anything, a good Face has to rely on a wide array of tactics, tricks, and gadgets to get the job done. Probably more so than most.

No, there is a difference between a face talking their way past a checkpoint vs. trying to fool technological/magical security devices.

And finally, despite your belief to the contrary, I'd argue that a Face is the one character type that could solo most runs in the game.

No way, not a high security building with a good deal of technological and magical security. There is no conning a high force possession spirit guarding a lab who is only allowing a particular spell with a particular astral *signature* to enter. You can't even communicate with it unless you are astrally perceiving until it possesses something... which will be you.

[nezumi]

Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.

[KnightRunner]

No way, not a high security building with a good deal of technological and magical security. There is no conning a high force possession spirit guarding a lab who is only allowing a particular spell with a particular astral *signature* to enter. You can't even communicate with it unless you are astrally perceiving until it possesses something... which will be you.

Ok gonna call BS here. Exactly what would any other archetype do about this extreme security? Without anybody noticing? Is your point that you can come up with a security system that no one can get into?

Just for the record there are a number of ways a face can get around even the spirit. Without going directly to the Adept or mystic adept, who makes great face and can handle spirits. But the easiest way is to go after the summoner. They gotta be somewhere and have a weak spot.

Is he a family man? "Dismiss the spirit at exactly 9pm or the family Chia pet gets it."

How about a bribe. "Good money, You want in?"

[sn0mm1s]

Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.

Getting past the gate is a far cry from delving into the bowels of Area 51.

[sn0mm1s]

Ok gonna call BS here. Exactly what would any other archetype do about this extreme security? Without anybody noticing? Is your point that you can come up with a security system that no one can get into?

Just for the record there are a number of ways a face can get around even the spirit. Without going directly to the Adept or mystic adept, who makes great face and can handle spirits. But the easiest way is to go after the summoner. They gotta be somewhere and have a weak spot.

Is he a family man? "Dismiss the spirit at exactly 9pm or the family Chia pet gets it."

How about a bribe. "Good money, You want in?"

Sure, but that isn't using face skills and it isn't going solo - and there are plenty of ways around that spirit if you brought a mage along with you - which again is my point. Also, summoning a spirit isn't *extreme* security there are Watcher spirits whose sole purpose is to do exactly that. Are you saying some uber high paid corporate research mage wouldn't be smart enough or have the foresight to add his own security measures and you could just bribe him? I mean, if you have the info on said mage *and* the money to bribe him.. why did the Johnson even bother with you... why not just go directly to the mage if he could be bought? It is likely that you might not even know that the spirit exists. Even an adept or mystic adept won't be a great face if they have to focus on getting rid of high force spirits.

[Ol' Scratch]

No way, not a high security building with a good deal of technological and magical security. There is no conning a high force possession spirit guarding a lab who is only allowing a particular spell with a particular astral *signature* to enter. You can't even communicate with it unless you are astrally perceiving until it possesses something... which will be you.

I didn't say they could do everything. I said, of all the character types in the game, they have the best shot of accomplishing anything. They're easily the most diverse and universally useful archetypes around. Any group performing any kind of run will benefit by having one on their team. You can't say that about most other archetypes.

[sn0mm1s]

I didn't say they could do everything. I said, of all the character types in the game, they have the best shot of accomplishing anything. They're easily the most diverse and universally useful archetypes around. Any group performing any kind of run will benefit by having one on their team. You can't say that about most other archetypes.

TBH, I would say a mage is way more useful. Many of the mage spells can be abused as can spirits. The mage can be as good at reconnaissance as fighting. The next best would be a hacker/technomancer who can also do some amazing things. Then I would go with the face. Then the muscle. Then the rigger. All serve their purpose. People just made it sound like you can just Ocean's 11 everything... when that is clearly not the case.

[KnightRunner]

Sure, but that isn't using face skills and it isn't going solo - and there are plenty of ways around that spirit if you brought a mage along with you - which again is my point. Also, summoning a spirit isn't *extreme* security there are Watcher spirits whose sole purpose is to do exactly that. Are you saying some uber high paid corporate research mage wouldn't be smart enough or have the foresight to add his own security measures and you could just bribe him? I mean, if you have the info on said mage *and* the money to bribe him.. why did the Johnson even bother with you... why not just go directly to the mage if he could be bought? It is likely that you might not even know that the spirit exists. Even an adept or mystic adept won't be a great face if they have to focus on getting rid of high force spirits.

umm what? I never said anything about anyone other than a face. I was pointing out that adepts and mystic adepts make great faces. Facial Sculpt and kenesics.

No the research mage might not do such things as he is supposed to be researching things and not providing security. If working for a corp, he would live with corp security and not add his own because thats how corps work. Who knows who the boss is going to send for a report or to observe. Let one of your bosses assistants get toasted by a spirit and see how your career goes. Not to mention that such things cost money.

As to why you were if you had those resources. Well first off you were hired for the same reason corps with endless money hire shadowrunners. Deniability. not because they could not do it themselves. Because they do not want anyone else to know. Second of all, part of being a shadowrunner is to find that kind of information and use it to your advantage.

[KnightRunner]

... when that is clearly not the case.

You have yet to evidence this.

[fistandantilus4....]

Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.

Being that guy quiet a lot, I respectfully disagree. Granted, there certainly are people that are like that, but they are, how to say this nicely ... weak willed. Some can be tricked sure, but there are very clear and concise requirements for access to a military installation, even for getting in the front door.

The sentry on a post can deny access to anyone save the CO of that installation. I've personally refused access to a 3 star admiral because he didn't have the proper creds on him. If he'd had a problem with it, then he could have called the CO. Then it's the COs call, not mine. But guess what? The CO or his rep (much more likely, probably the OoD) would have to come down and personally allow access. That's true even if it's an E-1 denying access.

At the basic entry at least, you're a lot better off making a good forgery of proper creds, and looking the part.

For a Face trying to make access to someplace you're not supposed to be, follow two basic rules:
1)Look like you know where you're going.
2) Look like you belong.

Having other props (like fake badges, and good ones) are important, but secondary. Finding the kinks in the security, especially the people that are susceptible/gullible, is a good way to go.

Then convincing people in general, whole 'nother approach.

[tete]

Getting past the gate is a far cry from delving into the bowels of Area 51.

Sure, but if you hang out at the Las Vegas airport you can watch the plane for Area 51 come and go (Its unmarked but pretty obvious). People get on and off and (shocker) those people have been inside the bowls of Area 51. All you have to do is manipulate them. Thats why Security Clearences require them to talk to your friends, family, have a good credit rating, pollygraph, etc. They want you to not be easily bribable.

Social Engineering is THE threat in security areas. I have to take a social engineering test every year for my clearance requirements (and my clearance aint that high).

[edit] I also think your getting hung up on the rules. A Face character is more than a high charisma high con guy. Hes the front man of the party. A street sam isnt only going to have gun skills, hes going to have stealth and other things to. The Face is just a way to say "I try to use my charm and disguise more than guns" the Shaman/Face as been a core archtype for years.

[Ol' Scratch]

TBH, I would say a mage is way more useful. Many of the mage spells can be abused as can spirits. The mage can be as good at reconnaissance as fighting. The next best would be a hacker/technomancer who can also do some amazing things. Then I would go with the face. Then the muscle. Then the rigger. All serve their purpose.

Yes, and put the mage in an area with a high background count (say, a rare run that goes up in orbit) or a heavily warded area and he's suddenly a lot less useful. The Face? Still every bit as useful. Even in a physical conflict, most decent Faces can hold their own courtesy of the fact that it doesn't take too many BPs to be a badass Face. Their talents work equally well in the Matrix, against spirits (despite your assumptions to the contrary) and other astral or magical threats, and in situations where magic and Matrix tricks are a very bad idea. For instance, it's easy for a dual-natured bodyguard to see you casting a Control Thoughts/Emotions/Actions spell on a Johnson. Not so much a Face using his social skills.

People just made it sound like you can just Ocean's 11 everything... when that is clearly not the case.

You can't put together a plan that uses everyone's skills to the best of their abilities? I thought that was the whole point of most runs.

[sn0mm1s]

umm what? I never said anything about anyone other than a face. I was pointing out that adepts and mystic adepts make great faces. Facial Sculpt and kenesics.

So let me get this straight. You as a face, threaten some mage with no muscle behind you when he can mentally command one of his bound spirits to possess you on the spot? Also, Facial Sculpt is a horrible power - it seems great at first until you realize that as an elf or human you are pretty much limited to looking like elves or humans. As an ork you can pass for an ork but not a troll because you are too small and not anything else because of your skin color (you need to add Melanin Control) and even then you would probably not look like the person you were trying to impersonate... unless that person was an ork. Dwarves? Too small. Trolls? Too big. And you still can't get past DNA/retinal scans with those powers. You are better off buying the face paste. Why waste 2 power points on something fancy makeup can do? Kinesics is awesome for a face as is Commanding Voice and Heightened Concentration (which effectively eliminates the negative dice pool modifiers of suspicious/hostile NPCs).

No the research mage might not do such things as he is supposed to be researching things and not providing security. If working for a corp, he would live with corp security and not add his own because thats how corps work. Who knows who the boss is going to send for a report or to observe. Let one of your bosses assistants get toasted by a spirit and see how your career goes. Not to mention that such things cost money.

Really? You don't password protect your computer at work? Or lock desk drawers? The beauty of a possession spirit is that it doesn't hurt you to subdue you. It just takes you over and walks you to security.

As to why you were if you had those resources. Well first off you were hired for the same reason corps with endless money hire shadowrunners. Deniability. not because they could not do it themselves. Because they do not want anyone else to know. Second of all, part of being a shadowrunner is to find that kind of information and use it to your advantage.

One degree of separation isn't that great. Are all your runners housing cyanide capsules in their tooth compartments so they don't give up information on the person that hired them? Or turn on them? Deniability is all well and good, but again, if you can bribe the mage outright then your Johnson really doesn't need the runners. Runners are just as much a liability as they are an asset depending on how things play out.

[sn0mm1s]

Yes, and put the mage in an area with a high background count (say, a rare run that goes up in orbit) or a heavily warded area and he's suddenly a lot less useful. The Face? Still every bit as useful. Even in a physical conflict, most decent Faces can hold their own courtesy of the fact that it doesn't take too many BPs to be a badass Face. Their talents work equally well in the Matrix, against spirits (despite your assumptions to the contrary) and other astral or magical threats, and in situations where magic and Matrix tricks are a very bad idea. For instance, it's easy for a dual-natured bodyguard to see you casting a Control Thoughts/Emotions/Actions spell on a Johnson. Not so much a Face using his social skills.


You can't put together a plan that uses everyone's skills to the best of their abilities? I thought that was the whole point of most runs.

An adept face would have similar difficulties. Also, I would tend to disagree that it doesn't take a lot of BP to build a bad ass face - at least the ones described in this thread.

There are a lot of different scenarios here. A mundane face will never be as good as an adept face. A mundane face can't even communicate with a possession spirit. I understand that there are places where a mage will be less useful than a mundane face due to background count... but do you really think that that would be the case if you were raiding some high security corp building? Look, again, my point is that a face, no matter how good, doesn't just waltz into wherever "social engineering" his way solo - which is what many people suggest is possible and even highly probable.

[KnightRunner]

So let me get this straight. You as a face, threaten some mage with no muscle behind you when he can mentally command one of his bound spirits to possess you on the spot?

Umm yeah, why not. the whole point is to have something that threatens them. No one said it has to be your ability to beat them in a straight up fight. Just something that they care about more than their Pet Project.

Really? You don't password protect your computer at work? Or lock desk drawers? The beauty of a possession spirit is that it doesn't hurt you to subdue you. It just takes you over and walks you to security.

Yes to the password, no to the locking. The locking is strictly against policy for our company as they require access at all times. Our security team must be able to get into anything at any time. Oh and we are required to log our password with out IT department. Most people just let IT assign them a password. Welcome to corporate life.

Oh and when the nice spirit walks me to security I use my Face skills to convince them that it is all a big misunderstanding.

One degree of separation isn't that great. Are all your runners housing cyanide capsules in their tooth compartments so they don't give up information on the person that hired them? Or turn on them? Deniability is all well and good, but again, if you can bribe the mage outright then your Johnson really doesn't need the runners. Runners are just as much a liability as they are an asset depending on how things play out.

Umm so I ask again, why does anyone ever use shaodowruners? You realize that you are arguing against the entire point of the game?

What Runners Do
Shadowrunners commit crimes, usually for money. When a corporation or other sponsor
needs someone to do dirty work, they look to the shadows. As “deniable assets,” runners
make advantageous—and expendable—tools.
SR4A p16

[KnightRunner]

Look, again, my point is that a face, no matter how good, doesn't just waltz into wherever "social engineering" his way solo - which is what many people suggest is possible and even highly probable.

Never suggested probability. That is a function of the Dicepools and thresholds.

I can give numerous in-game and Real life examples where social engineering has allowed someone into highly secure areas. Indeed others already have. So "not possible" is easily disproved.

[sn0mm1s]

Oh and when the nice spirit walks me to security I use my Face skills to convince them that it is all a big misunderstanding.

You *can't* talk to the spirit. It is *possessing* you. It is walking you to security with your own body.

I understand the point of Shadowrun but in general Shadowrunners aren't hired because of deniability... they are hired because of their expendability or possibly their specialized skillset.

[KnightRunner]

Being that guy quiet a lot, I respectfully disagree. Granted, there certainly are people that are like that, but they are, how to say this nicely ... weak willed. Some can be tricked sure, but there are very clear and concise requirements for access to a military installation, even for getting in the front door.

The sentry on a post can deny access to anyone save the CO of that installation. I've personally refused access to a 3 star admiral because he didn't have the proper creds on him. If he'd had a problem with it, then he could have called the CO. Then it's the COs call, not mine. But guess what? The CO or his rep (much more likely, probably the OoD) would have to come down and personally allow access. That's true even if it's an E-1 denying access.

At the basic entry at least, you're a lot better off making a good forgery of proper creds, and looking the part.

For a Face trying to make access to someplace you're not supposed to be, follow two basic rules:
1)Look like you know where you're going.
2) Look like you belong.

Having other props (like fake badges, and good ones) are important, but secondary. Finding the kinks in the security, especially the people that are susceptible/gullible, is a good way to go.

Then convincing people in general, whole 'nother approach.

The trick to this situation is knowing what con to pull and when. That's what great faces do. If pulling the "I am a Colonel so let me in" act, you need to make sure you are gonna pull it on someone likely to succumb to it. Once again the face has a number of options. Charm a drunk GI into telling you all about how guard duty works. Or just seduce them into sneaking you inside. Find something on them, BTL habit maybe? So when the "Colonel" shows up one of the guards says, "Umm yeah the CO called and said the Colonel was on the way." Lot of possibilities.

[KnightRunner]

You *can't* talk to the spirit. It is *possessing* you. It is walking you to security with your own body.

Who said anything about talking to the spirit. You said all it does is walk you to security. You talk to the nice security guards it leads you to.

I understand the point of Shadowrun but in general Shadowrunners aren't hired because of deniability... they are hired because of their expendability or possibly their specialized skillset.

And umm so you are saying the designers just threw that in for the heck of it? You mean that the paragraph they used to summarize the entire existence of shadowrunners and essence of the game is incorrect? They got it wrong?

[kzt]

Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.

No.

In high security sites it doesn't work. You walk across the yellow line and you'll get shot.

[tete]

Never suggested probability. That is a function of the Dicepools and thresholds.

I can give numerous in-game and Real life examples where social engineering has allowed someone into highly secure areas.

Would one happen to have happen in 2000, involve one guy, a janitors uniform, one of the biggest banks in the US, a dreamcast, and about 8 billion dollars? That one is my favorite.

In high security sites it doesn't work. You walk across the yellow line and you'll get shot.

I think you misunderstood nezumi. I believe its assumed people are allowed in the room.

[sn0mm1s]

Who said anything about talking to the spirit. You said all it does is walk you to security. You talk to the nice security guards it leads you to.

And umm so you are saying the designers just threw that in for the heck of it? You mean that the paragraph they used to summarize the entire existence of shadowrunners and essence of the game is incorrect? They got it wrong?

Ha. Right after the spirit explains what happened? They just let you go?

And yes, the designers did get the deniability part wrong with the way they designed the game. It is fluff, but not logical. When everything in the world can be hacked and traced and drones the size of insects can follow someone unknowingly and spirits can follow someone unknowingly and magic can control you etc. etc. deniability isn't really a logical reason for hiring someone. This is especially true when runners may need to choose between loyalty and death or giving up what they know of their employer.

[Matsci]

Ha. Right after the spirit explains what happened? They just let you go?

Yes you say " I'm Mr. StolenID from Internal Secuirty, and I need to talk to Dr. Y about his unathorized additions to security."

[KnightRunner]

And yes, the designers did get the deniability part wrong with the way they designed the game. It is fluff, but not logical. When everything in the world can be hacked and traced and drones the size of insects can follow someone unknowingly and spirits can follow someone unknowingly and magic can control you etc. etc. deniability isn't really a logical reason for hiring someone. This is especially true when runners may need to choose between loyalty and death or giving up what they know of their employer.

Ok I am done if you are gonna argue that the designers are wrong. By virtue of the fact that they created the game, they simply CAN NOT be wrong. What they say goes. It is their playground, their rules. They get to design game concepts. I think you may be blurring the line between reality and fantasy if you think otherwise.

[tagz]

I agree that social skills are definately some of the most useful skills in the game. They can do so much more then just get you better gear for less.

That said though, there are limits. So somebody buys into your con, that doesn't mean things automatically go your way. Maybe I can convince an Ares guard that I'm in fact Damien Knight, but he might be under orders to not allow ANYONE without proper ID, DNA, and retinal scan, even Damien Knight. These orders are likely as spells and tech can create pretty convincing disguises.

So that situation might go something like this.
Face: "Let me in."
Guard: "Sorry, restricted access."
Face "Don't you recognize me, son, I'm Damien Knight. Now open this door immediately." Makes a con roll. Gets 7 hits lets say.
Guard gets 2 hits: "Oh, I'm terribly sorry sir, but I'm not allowed to let anyone, even you, without proper identification. I'm terribly sorry for the inconvenience sir." He totally buys the lie but it doesn't mean he's a mental slave, he just acts on the lie as if it were true.

I've seen too many people act like a successful con roll makes everyone do what they say. It just makes them believe you. So the real trick is to know when a lie will be enough and when you'll need more to back it up. Maybe more social skills will work, maybe you'll need to forge an ID badge.

[DireRadiant]

The designers do have a certain control over the genre of the game, but it is up to each of us to choose to play the game as we like.

[Wandering One]

For a slightly different perspective, I've always found Con to be the ability to *sell* your lie, not to outright lie and get what you want. A con artist, or a "con"fidence man, wasn't so good because he came up with a great lie. He was great because he could sell it to you, no nerves, no pause, right stance and stature. It usually took prep work for the look, the intent, etc.

So if, for example, you walk into a warehouse and tell someone you're from Knight Errant looking for a place to store some 'disappearing goodies'... You might be able to sell you're from Knight Errant, you MIGHT even sell that you're looking for a place to store said disappearing items... You're not going to convince this guy to not text his warehouse workers to "Dump that crap you're loading into the boat right now and RUN!" If you're also trying to sell the fact that your company, a protection firm, needs a secure place to store things... you can't con someone the sun is blue today.

[Ol' Scratch]

Exactly. Like I said, a Face has to know what to say as well as when and to whom to say it to. It's not just a bunch of random rolls of the dice. It's the roleplaying archetype, and if you don't actually play the part, it's quickly going to result in the vitriol and disdain that some of the people in this thread seem to have towards it.

[tete]

I've seen too many people act like a successful con roll makes everyone do what they say.

Maybe I'll show my age a bit but... In my day the problem with playing the Face was that you did all your research, blackmailed the security mage. Changed your finderprints etc to look like the researcher, had the mage of the group mask your signature. Spend hours in VR learning the facility. Then you go in...

You grab the item...

And random joe security guard starts firing at you (why we dont know but he was on to you). Then knight errant apparently surrounded the entire building while you were in there(somehow the sniper and the rigger you had watching the place didnt see the attack helecoptors and tanks coming in) and they just opens fire, never mind the secretaries and other employees in there. This runner has to die!

And if you managed to get out with the item Mr Johnson shoots you in the back and takes the item and the money.

[edit] Oh and con shoudln't make them do what you say it should help make them believe what you say. OMG its a Dragon! Will just make them turn their head not actually believe there is a dragon.

[Ascalaphus]

You don't bluff your way into a secure building. You con the right people into inviting you in. A face is like a good hacker; it's not about beating the system, it's about abusing and subverting the (social) system.

A Face isn't something you make by putting some stats on a piece of paper; it's an act, and it requires a lot of creativity to come up with the scams that'll get you the desired result. The stats are rather like an afterthought.

[Glyph]

Faces are an archetype that works best with planning and preparation. Pure bluff can only get you so far, even if you are a social adept.

A face is useful because social skills, and contacts, are tools that are good for the information gathering stage of the run, the infiltration and exfiltration, and the aftermath (fencing paydata, etc.). Shadowrunners may operate outside of the system, but they depend on a network of other people to give them jobs, gear, fake ID, safe houses, and so on. They also deal with dangerous and unsavory groups of people, sometimes when they are at a numerical or logistical disadvantage, or when violence would inordinately complicate their lives. The face's ability to navigate these treacherous waters is invaluable.

Being a face is a broad role, and not every social character will be a full-fledged face. Some are nothing but pure brute force social ability, with things like glamour or tailored pheromones that make them effective con artists at the price of making them memorable and conspicuous. You can also be a sammie, hacker, or other type with a "touch of face" - decent social skills combined with contacts and knowledge skills related to your role (maybe the sammie knows the merc hangouts, where to sell a case of hot Uzis looted from the security guards, and where to pick up milspec gear. Maybe the hacker knows who makes the best fake IDs, and which forums have the most reliable rumormills.).

So when you make a face, think about what aspects of being a face that you enjoy. Is it being supernaturally attractive? Is it being a social chameleon? Is it having buddies and connections everywhere? Is it being able to ferret out information by talking to people? Get skills to play what you like doing, and then pick some secondary specialties that go with it. Faces can be effective outside of the social realm, too.

[nezumi]

Yes, Fisty and kzt - I did note that you cannot directly contradict a previous order. Generally the guy set to guard the yellow line or the front gate is the toughest part of the job for a face - because that guy's orders are to limit entry. That's the case where you either need another con, or another entrance.

How do you get past the front guard? You figure out how people get added to the 'expected persons list'. You get yourself added to the list. Then you smile to the guard as you walk by.

I can say that, from professional experience, you can get into a lot of sensitive places if you look and act the part. The front door is the toughest part. After that... either hijack an enlistee as a guide, or cruise the cafeteria to gather information or snag a badge (or surf the cubicles) or whatever... Most people do not have the job of watching out for intruders, so they don't. Figure out who in the organization your target is trained to help, and become that person.

[KnightRunner]

Ok I feel the need to relate a story as an example of what can easily be done.

In early 1993, my younger sister was taking figure skating lessons. As a surprise gift for her progress, my parents sprang to go see Stars on Ice. I was 19 at the time, and the idea was enough to make me vomit. But I was a good big brother, so I put on a smile and played along. At the show, my mother noticed my boredom and suggested I go and try to get an autograph for my sister. As I approached the area of the arena that was closest to the ice where people had gathered to try and get autographs, a security crew showed up to disperse the people and insist the go back to their seats. To avoid this fate I quickly pulled out my ticket a acted like I was looking for my seat. I appropriated a vacant seat and waited until the security guards were content and left the area. As they left, I noticed a side door towards the back of the arena that some of the guards were passing through. As I waited I noticed one of the guards that had passed through the door appeared a few moments later near the ice. I surmised that the door must be a passage to the back areas. I left my seat and found a secluded place near the door. When a vendor, carrying a large box, came through I was nice enough to hold the door for them. They never noticed me slip through the door. Once inside I quickly appropriated a box from a nearby cart. The nice vendor apparently had a stash behind the door. The box and a smile was all it took for the guards to ignore me as I walked into the back areas. I eventually found a hallway that lead to a buss parking area. The buses outside were for the stars and guarded by numerous ecurity personnel. As I scoped out the area, I bumped into a skater carrying a large duffel. She was well known enough that I recognized her instantly. I never flinched and quickly said, "Ms. Yamaguchi may I help you with your bag?" She smiled and handed me here duffel. I followed her to the bus and handed of the bag to the coachman who was loading baggage onto the bus. As the skater thanked me, I sheepishly asked for an autograph. "Not for me, but for my baby sister, who is a big fan. She would think I am the best big brother in the world if you would just sign." I eventually made seven trips through the security checkpoint carrying luggage and walked away with seven autographs. Security never questioned a thing. They all assumed I was with the skaters.

Now this was no Shadowrun and not high security by any means. But security was not exactly loose either. This is just one example I can provide. I have conned my way into many places. Including Whiteman Air Force base. Yup I managed to convince a group of armed airmen to let me drive my Suburban carrying my family inside, without even showing ID. With the right story and a lot of homework I could probably get into just about anywhere, but to be honest I am not sure I have the stones for the serious stuff.

[nezumi]

I was in a professional course and the teacher mentioned he was given a guided tour of the Anacostia Naval Yards - without ever showing any form of authentication. Just look and act like you belong. (He was an ex-Marine officer - Major Paine, if you can believe it! But he obviously looked the part and knew the lingo.)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I was in a professional course and the teacher mentioned he was given a guided tour of the Anacostia Naval Yards - without ever showing any form of authentication. Just look and act like you belong. (He was an ex-Marine officer - Major Paine, if you can believe it! But he obviously looked the part and knew the lingo.)

Those Marines are Crafty People...

Keep the Faith

[Banaticus]

the teacher mentioned he was given a guided tour of the

Possibly he got in because it was a guided tour? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

There was this huge snowboarding contest thing up at Bear Valley or maybe Snow Summit that happened one weekend while my brother was slumming it (sleeping in the back of his car so he didn't have to pay for gas to drive home every night, etc.) and the only clothes he had were his snowboarding clothes and his suit (his plan was to snowboard as long as he could Fri evening, Sat and Sun morning then to put his suit on and show up just in time for church with the family). So he realized that he wasn't going to be snowboarding that day, so he put his nice dark suit on to impress the girls. While he was walking along that morning he came to the spot where the professionals were going to the lift and he just walked up and started manning that spot. If someone was a professional, he let them onto the lift and the slope otherwise he turned them away. He got to spend the day chatting with the professionals who were waiting and he had a great view of the half pipe. Nobody ever challenged him or said, "Hey, you don't work here" or something, he was just dressed for something like that and he spent the day "working" like he belonged there. And then he partied with them all night long, but that's another story.

A similar story is why I'm banned for life from the Stratosphere in Las Vegas, but that's another story.

If you happen to be dressed for whatever you're doing and you're there working, nobody ever really challenges you unless it's s a small operation where everyone knows each other. You just need to watch out for those jobs where people are paid by "commission" (by how much work they do) instead of by the hour -- because then the other housekeeping team might radio back to ask which room they're supposed to be in because someone's already there vacuuming.

[FooFighter]

With the right cyberware, I've found socially oriented characters (especially those of the female variant) to be quite useful for assassinations. Seduce the target, then, in the seclusion of his bedroom (or the nearest bathroom, if he is of the less-than-romantic kind), make him experience that nice little throat-implant blade of yours. People probably won't go looking for him for a while allowing you to get away nice and quietly, if you make sure people won't see you leave his room on the same way you got in.

If you're doing the assassination as a preparation for a later raid, you could get finger(print)s (copies), eyeballs and similar as well. Of course, you'd have to take care that access codes won't be changed in the time between the take-down and the raid, so you'd better do the raid right after it and take care to hide the body, preferably going as far as making sure the guy's boss knows he won't be available for the evening or something.

Mind you, though, that all my experiences with "face" characters have been in other role playing systems, and that they also had decent combat skills, so they always were useful, even when not acting within their archetype.

[Wandering One]

With the right cyberware, I've found socially oriented characters (especially those of the female variant) to be quite useful for assassinations. Seduce the target, then, in the seclusion of his bedroom (or the nearest bathroom, if he is of the less-than-romantic kind), make him experience that nice little throat-implant blade of yours. People probably won't go looking for him for a while allowing you to get away nice and quietly, if you make sure people won't see you leave his room on the same way you got in.

I'm suddenly picturing the need for a heimlich after every assassination. Where'd I leave that mind bleach...?

[nezumi]

There are stories of women in Colombia who would somehow cover or dip their breasts in scopolamine. They'd seduce the mark, bring him home, you know, then the drug would take effect and they would take him off to a safehouse where they could empty all his accounts at their convenience.

Good face with the right tools (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

edit: Well... good SOMETHING anyway.

[Red_Cap]

One of my favorite Face moments in SR was when my buddy Ed ran On the Run for us. I was playing a Welsh elven Face/Pistoleer (we had no combat chars in the group, thus my need to be handy with an Ares Predator). We showed up early to Nabo's concert, my Face in his expensive three-piece with the human combat mage and the burly ork infiltrator (with street clothes over his sneaksuit) behind me as "bodyguards," and I bluffed my way past three successive groups of gangers by telling them that I worked for a European media corp and that I wanted to talk to Nabo about a European Tour, that I had already locked in tour-dates, and that my corp would be willing to pay for him and his "entourage" to make the trip. The best part? I winged that one off the top of my head, and apparently my surprise showed on my face because the GM shook his head and gave me a +2 dice pool modifier for pulling such a convincing con out of my ass.

[Mongoose]

There are stories of women in Colombia who would somehow cover or dip their breasts in scopolamine. They'd seduce the mark, bring him home, you know, then the drug would take effect and they would take him off to a safehouse where they could empty all his accounts at their convenience.

Good face with the right tools (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

edit: Well... good SOMETHING anyway.

Asking a lot of random wealthy looking men if they want to come back to your room to suck your tits until one says yes doesn't exactly require social skill. The person with the social skill is the one who came up with this scam, scored the scopalamine, got somebody to teach him to use it safely, and is skimming from the ladies who do the dirty work.

[Banaticus]

He has no social skill, just money. The person with the social skill in this scenario is the guy who comes in and the women give him a little quiet kickback for nothing before sending the rest on to the main backer.

[bernardo]

In fact, the guy with social skills is the guy behind the guy who has money behind the guy who came up with the scam behind the girls... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[IceKatze]

hi hi

It's not about telling one big lie, it is about weaving together a fabric of smaller lies until it either sticks or becomes true by virtue of self fulfilling prophecy.

Most of the discussion has focused on the face bypassing security but the face has so many other uses, deadly uses, that it is sometimes scary. Has anyone ever seen Wag the Dog?

Edit: Secondary Pattern Voice Modulators have so many more uses than just bypassing locks, especially in a world where so much interaction is done wirelessly.

[Dixie Flatline]

Back to a general discussion of how to approach playing a Face, my first suggestion is to go and pick up The Art of Deception by Kevin Mitnick.

Mitnick is an ex-hacker-turned-security-consultant who generated quite a bit of news back in the day. The book is a discussion of what he considers the biggest and most easily exploitable security flaw in any system: Human interaction. It's a book totally on social engineering. It deals with using certain phrases to generate emotional reactions that will benefit the engineer, and gives several "real world" examples for each of his concepts on how an exploit could occur. It gets a little repetitive in the second half, but there's a huge number of examples that are applicable to a Face in any roleplaying game. It's a great "conceptual" book on how to A) produce social engineering attacks and B) how to make such attacks more difficult.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

hi hi

It's not about telling one big lie, it is about weaving together a fabric of smaller lies until it either sticks or becomes true by virtue of self fulfilling prophecy.

Most of the discussion has focused on the face bypassing security but the face has so many other uses, deadly uses, that it is sometimes scary. Has anyone ever seen Wag the Dog?

Edit: Secondary Pattern Voice Modulators have so many more uses than just bypassing locks, especially in a world where so much interaction is done wirelessly.

"This is Nothing, Nothing... we can fix this, it's nothing"

Yeah, Wag the Dog is pretty funny...

[IceKatze]

hi hi

It was funny, but the point I was trying to make is that if you can find people that want to believe a lie, you can get it to take on a life of its own.

Another example I know is in the book The Outback Stars where:

[ Spoiler ]

The government tries to cover up an embarrassing accident by claiming it was terrorist attack by a particular dissident group that had previously only gone as far as protests. After the coverup, however, factions within the dissident group (which was never very organized to begin with) believe the lie and decide they need to start engaging in terrorist acts too because their "comrades are."

A living corporate asset might be easier to extract for another company if he believes his wife was cheating on him with his boss, for example.

[sunnyside]

Alright, I think people are arguing from a fictionalized imagining of how SR is played.

Choosing to play a face character is a tricky prospect at best. Here are some of the problems.

#1 If a face player is doing many of the things mentioned here, they're going to be effectively hogging the limelight , and this will not go over well. I think I can comfortably say that "face" types have the highest mortality rates in most any game. This is because either they have to operate nearly solo, at which point when something goes wrong, possibly by GM fiat, you're all alone and not that much of a combat monster, or you have to try and bring along the sociopathic troll that really really does not want to have come over for game night only to NOT get in a bunch of fights with the new cyberware they bought after the last session. I'll leave it to your imagination how well that's going to work out.

#2 The is no guarantee you'll be useful. A GM essentially can't stop a mage from being useful unless they start throwing manastorms everywhere. And so long as there is a fight the combat types are useful. But in many missions there isn't a "face required" part. To get a feel for this maybe read through the SR missions. Sure there is a spot here or there where a face might get to make a roll. But while a team might be screwed if they didn't have a mage, you don't really have to roll a single social die to complete them. Mind you I haven't played all of them, so feel free to pull out some examples in the missions that prove me wrong, it would make me happy to see some real social skill aspects added in.

#3 What they can acheive can often be duplicated by other players. Instead of trying to lie your way through, a hacker can get you preapproved. Instead of trying to convince someone of something, a mage can simply control them.

#4 I've often played face types, and I find there is significant pushback from GMs/DMs. It's rather strange, but while they can accept a troll that can bench press a car, a mage that can fly, and don't blink when someone has such a large dice pool that they can shoot someone in the head at max range while drunk and blindfolded, they simply cannot wrap their heads around superhuman social skills. In short I'd suggest that a social dicepool over 12 isn't going to really help you, and may actually be detrimental.

Now a face CAN be very important to a team, but it requires that the GM MAKES the setting such that a face is important. He has to make the information you learn during footwork critical not trivial like it usually is. He has to jump through the hoops to engineer situations where only social skills can get past something (which is actually fairly difficult). Or he has to make a convoluted continuing campaign where how the player relates to a wide range of the "cast of shadows" will become very important down the line.

By default they do none of this, and so by default the face type is a poor choice.

Unless you've personally seen a face be a vital part of the team in a game your GM ran, I'd say that if you want to play a face, you should be one of the other archetypes and simply throw some resources into a moderate social pool and see what happens before putting more resources that way. Adepts with their cheap social abilities and charisma based magic users make decent springboards, and since being a hacker doesn't have to use up that many rescources to be good they can also be a good starting point for a faceish character.

[nezumi]

On the flip side, it is not expensive to become a face. I have seen both a decker/face and a mage/face, who spent very little to get there.

(I've also seen a rigger/adept/street sam/decker/attempted face, but... she pretty much sucked at being a face. Still, it was an honest effort.)

[Whipstitch]

I know it's cliche, but it's easier to be a believable Face if you follow the most basic precept of that dog eared ol' tome "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Customs and acceptable behavior may vary around the world, but as a general rule you should never, EVER show someone up unless there's absolutely no way around it. People hold grudges, which is a problem when you consider that the people you will be dealing with in the shadows are generally armed guards, smugglers, drug dealers, con men, crooked cops, cutthroat businessmen, lawyers, mafiosi, gangers and assorted varieties of hired muscle. People always remember Machiavelli for saying it is better to be feared than loved but often forget about the part where he said that it also never pays to be hated. People at least have a grudging respect for tough but fair.

The above may seem obvious to many people, but I've found that the urge to always get in the last word can be a bit of a problem since many roleplayers seem to think that being "cool" is somehow more important than being magnanimous when it comes to playing a Face. It makes for some odd scenes in which a character acts kind of like a dick but the player cites his 3 net hits and says everyone likes him. Being witty and quick with the barbs may work on TV and make you famous, but keep in mind that in the real world Voltaire was repeatedly exiled or imprisoned for criticizing everyone under the sun. And you know what? Your Face ain't wittier than Voltaire.

[kzt]

I've seen a few books talking about how to not get killed on the street. In real life. They mention that getting the last word is bad idea. If some heavily armed asshole and his 12 best buddies suggest that if you don't leave their bar they will kill you there are several options open to you. Generally the option that minimizes the chance that you'll be encountering a pathologist or a trauma surgeon that night is to leave and don't say shit on the way out. Any comment you might make en-route that includes the word "you" significantly raises the chance that you'll need their services.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, you really only see those scenes where the big guy slaps the outsider protagonist on the back and pronounces him all right on TV for a reason. The exchange is a useful writing tool because it paints the hero as exceptional-- it's literally trading in on the audience's implicit knowledge that Joe Shmoe would be getting his teeth kicked in. There's exceptions, of course, but generally you don't get your way by making waves.

[KnightRunner]

Now a face CAN be very important to a team, but it requires that the GM MAKES the setting such that a face is important. He has to make the information you learn during footwork critical not trivial like it usually is. He has to jump through the hoops to engineer situations where only social skills can get past something (which is actually fairly difficult). Or he has to make a convoluted continuing campaign where how the player relates to a wide range of the "cast of shadows" will become very important down the line.

I absolutely 100% disagree with this. A face is almost always useful, almost always has an option. And the GM has to do nothing out of the ordinary to make this so. In fact the only way for them to not be useful is if the GM goes out of their way to make them not useful. It is up to the player to figure out how to be useful. Of course if the GM just says no to everything then you are screwed. That is not a problem with the character, but rather a problem with the GM.

And making a situation were only social skills can suffice is difficult? Seriously? What could be more easy. All you have to do is make confrontation a bad thing. Which is easy in shadowrun because in so many situation the other guy has more resources. Heck just every meet with a Johnson qualifies.

I do agree with your statement that a mage is almost always useful as well. Assuming they have a good selection of spells available. In my option it is the straight up Martial characters that are often left with nothing to do. Now granted, when the fit hits the shan, they are darn handy to have around, but the rest of the time they are on hold.

[Whipstitch]

And the GM has to do nothing out of the ordinary to make this so. In fact the only way for them to not be useful is if the GM goes out of their way to make them not useful. It is up to the player to figure out how to be useful.

That is highly, highly subjective. The post you're responding to is biased by personal experience as well, but I think GMs do need to acknowledge that there's an inherent amount of ambiguity when dealing with degrees of success on a social test and that players may resort to other methods rather quickly if the group makeup gives the team other options. After all, what happens when you shoot a hell hound with a full narrow burst is pretty well codified compared to how much mileage you can really expect to squeeze out of a net hit on a Con test-- hell, the mark may not be able to do what you need him to do at all. Further, it's actually quite possible to make a game where social skills aren't that terribly useful. It may sound awful dungeon crawl to many of the people here, but it is quite possible for a group of street level runners to be asked to clear out a nest of feral ghouls or to sneak into NAN territory and poach a particular paracritter. Now, I'll grant you that in the latter case you might make some headway by hiring a local guide or something, but in a lot of cases Faces are merely greasing the wheels and saving the team a bit of nuyen here and there if the player and GM aren't pro-active about making their activities more noteworthy.

[sn0mm1s]

That is highly, highly subjective. The post you're responding to is biased by personal experience as well, but I think GMs do need to acknowledge that there's an inherent amount of ambiguity when dealing with degrees of success on a social test and that players may resort to other methods rather quickly if the group makeup gives the team other options. After all, what happens when you shoot a hell hound with a full narrow burst is pretty well codified compared to how much mileage you can really expect to squeeze out of a net hit on a Con test-- hell, the mark may not be able to do what you need him to do at all. Further, it's actually quite possible to make a game where social skills aren't that terribly useful. It may sound awful dungeon crawl to many of the people here, but it is quite possible for a group of street level runners to be asked to clear out a nest of feral ghouls or to sneak into NAN territory and poach a particular paracritter. Now, I'll grant you that in the latter case you might make some headway by hiring a local guide or something, but in a lot of cases Faces are merely greasing the wheels and saving the team a bit of nuyen here and there if the player and GM aren't pro-active about making their activities more noteworthy.

That and the way people describe the abilities of social characters they should never even go on a run. Too much risk for too little reward. Just go "social engineer" the local bank for a certified cred stick or two. Why risk going anywhere where you might get shot? Anyone can go into a bank and withdraw money.

[Banaticus]

In fact the only way for them to not be useful is if the GM goes out of their way to make them not useful. It is up to the player to figure out how to be useful.

Which can be difficult because we're roleplaying here (or trying to). If you're not so smart but your character is, a dice roll to figure something out is accepted -- our characters routinely crack uber computer problems that would take me hours to even start to parse. You may not be able to shoot worth a darn, but if you have enough dice it's really not a problem. You might be Stephen Hawking, but if your character is a Leopard Shape-shifter Trapeze Artist, then fine, as long as you roll the dice then you're just fine and dandy.

A real life person playing a face character, though, has to actually know and understand social situations and so does the GM. I've seen people who are like the sample people posted earlier in this thread -- making snarky derogatory comments to the Mafia boss but citing the 3 net hits on the social roll as the reason why the Mafia boss respects the character and is fine with that sort of language. To play a face character well, you pretty much need to understand how a face character works. There's been some great examples

[Whipstitch]

If there's one thing I've learned while GMing it's that you need to be careful about stonewalling a Face in front of the gun bunnies too often-- at the very least you need to throw them some kind of useful info as a bone now and again even if they're consistently barking up the wrong tree. That's because if the rest of the group is already inclined to shoot their way to a solution the Face may not have many chances to work their magic before having to get behind cover. It's about group dynamics as much as it is opportunities.

[KnightRunner]

That is highly, highly subjective. The post you're responding to is biased by personal experience as well, but I think GMs do need to acknowledge that there's an inherent amount of ambiguity when dealing with degrees of success on a social test and that players may resort to other methods rather quickly if their schemes don't net them the sort of results they were hoping for. After all, what happens when you shoot a hell hound with a full narrow burst is pretty well codified compared to how much mileage you can really expect to squeeze out of a net hit on a Con test-- hell, the mark may not be able to do what you need him to do at all. Further, it's actually quite possible to make a game where social skills aren't that terribly useful. It may sound awful dungeon crawl to many of the people here, but it is quite possible for a group of street level runners to be asked to clear out a nest of feral ghouls or to sneak into NAN territory and poach a particular paracritter. Now, I'll grant you that in the latter case you might make some headway by hiring a local guide or something, but even so it's easy for the Face to fall into the habit of merely greasing the wheels a bit here and there as opposed to offering concrete solutions to major roadblocks.

I agree that their is always subjectivity in gaming. Playstyles vary. I also see your point that social skills results are less specific and require more creativity on the GM's part. I usually refer to that part as role-playing.

Your feral ghouls example is one were a face probably would not have much to do. But a shadowrun were all you have to do is go to point A and shoot things, does not sound very interesting. The face can get you info on their feeding habits, their location, who else might be interested in having the ghouls gone. (Hey, why not garner some favors for doing something that someone else is paying you to do.)

The paracritter example, however has face written all over it. Talk to the local animal control or game warden. They know where to find them, how to subdue them, and how to transport. Heck, they even have the gear. Make them your new bestest buddy. For the low cost of a "consulting fee" you can be the proud owner of a new paracritter.

It's about group dynamics as much as it is opportunities.

This is very true. Knowing and using group dynamic is paramount to both players and GM.

[Wandering One]

If you're not so smart but your character is, a dice roll to figure something out is accepted -- our characters routinely crack uber computer problems that would take me hours to even start to parse.

Something I'll do as a GM, on a face's request, is allow them to roll a Logic+Con roll to attempt to figure out a useful con without planning. Depending on the # of hits I'll help them with more and more useful possible con jobs they can try on the fly.

@Whipstitch: There's another side to constantly stonewalling your face, too... and that's body count. The less useful non-impact solutions are, the more your players are going to start relying on C4 over stealth. There's a balance to everything, like allowing for a con job or a masterful matrix hack to get you halfway in before you hit the security that actually cares, etc.

[Whipstitch]

The paracritter example, however has face written all over it. Talk to the local animal control or game warden. They know where to find them, how to subdue them, and how to transport. Heck, they even have the gear. Make them your new bestest buddy. For the low cost of a "consulting fee" you can be the proud owner of a new paracritter.

Or you just might make your presence known to the very man whose job it is to stop you. Social engineering is a rather risky game. Risky enough that some groups might have a point when they argue that a simple snatch and grab might be the safe route.

[KnightRunner]

Or you just might make your presence known to the very man whose job it is to stop you. Social engineering is a rather risky game. Risky enough that some groups might have a point when they argue that a simple snatch and grab might be the safe route.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer!

[tagz]

I think one of the most important qualities a player needs to play a face effectively is to be proactive. Creative a close second.

In the game I'm running the player who is the face is currently struggling with this. I was really glad when he wanted to be the face as he's more the type to "wait and see" or "go along with the group", though he did always have good insight and ideas.

It's been interesting to watch him learn to face because, well, a face has to create their own usefulness. A Street Sam/phys adept can kick back and wait for combat, a mage will always have niches depending on how it's built, a hacker/TM knows they can cover the tech stuff -security, info hacking, whatnot... But the face needs to think up their own usefulness or they won't do much besides get cheaper 'n rare gear, and info.

The face in my game has started to learn when to jump in with a lie or a misdirection and is now working on the creativity part, but just jumping into the situation is a good start. A "sit back and wait" face is a bored face.

[sunnyside]

a face has to create their own usefulness.

For those who don't know, this is a statement that should raise some flags. It's the character generation equivalent of "It'll be an easy run, no complications".


In the examples about the paracritter. The face might cleverly think to ask around etc. However as he starts to RP with people, the shaman will get board, whistle up a spirit, and have the thing find what they're looking for with a quick toss of the dice. Before the face can get out "But I was going to..." the rigger is taking off.

Someone mentioned Burn Notice earlier. (Great show by the way, get over to Hulu pronto if you haven't seen it). But one thing that happens at least every other episode is that Fiona says something along the lines of "Wouldn't it be easier to just shoot them?" And the answer is always yes, but Michael doesn't roll that way, so you have a full episodes. The Troll Sammie wouldn't ask permission, and if he did the rest of the team would give it to him anyway. A typical runner team would complete the typical episode of Burn Notice in about five minutes.

Again the trick isn't coming up with situations where a face could be useful. It's a matter of having a situation where the pile of BPs they spent will do the trick, but that can't be acheived by the abilities of the other clever players.

[KnightRunner]

For those who don't know, this is a statement that should raise some flags. It's the character generation equivalent of "It'll be an easy run, no complications".


In the examples about the paracritter. The face might cleverly think to ask around etc. However as he starts to RP with people, the shaman will get board, whistle up a spirit, and have the thing find what they're looking for with a quick toss of the dice. Before the face can get out "But I was going to..." the rigger is taking off.

Someone mentioned Burn Notice earlier. (Great show by the way, get over to Hulu pronto if you haven't seen it). But one thing that happens at least every other episode is that Fiona says something along the lines of "Wouldn't it be easier to just shoot them?" And the answer is always yes, but Michael doesn't roll that way, so you have a full episodes. The Troll Sammie wouldn't ask permission, and if he did the rest of the team would give it to him anyway. A typical runner team would complete the typical episode of Burn Notice in about five minutes.

Again the trick isn't coming up with situations where a face could be useful. It's a matter of having a situation where the pile of BPs they spent will do the trick, but that can't be acheived by the abilities of the other clever players.

Well first of all I am not trying to say that the face is the only or most useful archetype. A well rounded teams will always be the best way to go.

As to your assertion, they are true only if you ignore consequences. With the paracritter, if someone is hiring a team of runners, there must be some danger, either from the critter its self, its location, or both. So sending a spirit into such a dangerous situation alone is a fast way to loose a spirit. What you are suggesting is the same as charging the front door of a megacorp for a datatsteal.

As for Burn notice and the shoot them remark. Hey, I love Fiona, she is a great character. But the truth is, shooting brings a lot of consequences. As Micheal would say, "people ask questions" Shooting is a good way to make sure everyone knows what you did and to trigger revenge. Its like John Malkovich said in "In the Line of Fire" when talking about killing the president. Doing it is easy, getting away with it is hard. So yeah, the troll sammie could just roll heads and bring on the slaughter, until the day he kills the misfit second cousin once removed of someone powerful and they decided to make ending your life their ticket into the next election. Soon you are public enemy #1 on their tough on crime campaign. Now if the sammie had just knocked the guy out, well that's just less newsworthy. Heck fixers will stop calling you when they start to figure out that every job you pull ends up on the evening news.

[sunnyside]

As to your assertion, they are true only if you ignore consequences. With the paracritter, if someone is hiring a team of runners, there must be some danger, either from the critter its self, its location, or both. So sending a spirit into such a dangerous situation alone is a fast way to loose a spirit. What you are suggesting is the same as charging the front door of a megacorp for a datatsteal.

Do spirits even need to move in order to use the search ability? In any case the capture and extraction is the hard part. If the thing is in the middle of a corporate facility that's a different sort of run.

. Heck fixers will stop calling you when they start to figure out that every job you pull ends up on the evening news.

It would be awsome if a GM would come in, eat the cheetos, and than say "nobody hires you after that last one" and walks out.

However if the team did the shooting in an SR mission, I'm guessing that the team is correctly confident that they'll be doing the next one. Plus, this is SR, even after the face does his thing they like as not end up shooting the guy in the end anyway.


I'm not saying that faces are worthless. I encourage players to be facey, and ensure my games are geared for that. However on the other side of the table I've found that being a face type is just an invitation to frustration, both from characters I've made and watching others. And that goes for multiple GMs and multiple game systems.

Ergo my statement that, unless the GM is actively making the game so that faces are useful, you'd be better off making nearly any other type of archtype.

I'm not saying the OP shouldn't make a face. But I'm saying that before they do they should either strongly consider how the game is structured or have a talk with the GM with their BS detector cranked up to full.

If they're unsure at all, make a character that is something else with a little bit of social ability and see how it goes. If it's great than go ahead and pick up some social adept skills when you initiate or whatever.

[Yerameyahu]

Still, there's just no reason to expect that the GM wouldn't be "actively making the game so that faces are useful". It's tabletop, that's his job. And as people have said, it's no stretch to find ways to make a face useful. A game without it wouldn't be Burn Notice (or Leverage, or Oceans Eleven, whatever), it'd just be SOCOM: 2070. In conclusion, thank god for good GMs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dixie Flatline]

I've seen people who are like the sample people posted earlier in this thread -- making snarky derogatory comments to the Mafia boss but citing the 3 net hits on the social roll as the reason why the Mafia boss respects the character and is fine with that sort of language.

As a GM, in such a situation, I'd say "okay, so those three hits were... just enough to get you to overcome the obvious social screwup you committed by insulting him in front of his men. He *probably* won't kill you for what you said, he actually did chuckle, but he's impatient now and has no intent of letting you stick around to insult him more in front of his men."

Every RPG I've ever played in has advocated to give a modifier (usually a bonus) to any social rolls if the player roleplays. I see no problem with giving a penalty if someone does something immensely stupid.

That's what you see on television. Someone who says something that instantly raises the success threshold to 4 successes by being a smartass, and they nail 5. If they hadn't been arrogant smartasses, instead of barely squeaking by, they would have succeeded wildly.

As a GM, I don't *have* to give success thresholds. In fact I usually don't unless the character has a reasonable knowledge of how unlikely something is going to be.

[KnightRunner]

Still, there's just no reason to expect that the GM wouldn't be "actively making the game so that faces are useful". It's tabletop, that's his job. And as people have said, it's no stretch to find ways to make a face useful. A game without it wouldn't be Burn Notice (or Leverage, or Oceans Eleven, whatever), it'd just be SOCOM: 2070. In conclusion, thank god for good GMs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So much this.

A good GM gives everyone chance to shine and tailors runs to match the party makeup. There is an all too common misconception that at an RPG table it is the GM's game and the players conform to it. No, it is the players game and the GM conforms.

[Ol' Scratch]

Nah, it's everyone's game. The GM creates stories he likes and which he thinks are fun, and tries to make it so that all the players can contribute to it equally. The players, in turn, create characters and story seeds for their characters (though qualities, contacts, background stories, etc.) that will fit in with the basic scenario the GM concocts and that will be compatible with the rest of the players. Then everyone sits down and weaves a story together with the GM acting as the main narrator, player of the NPCs, and all around referee for any rules disputes or confusions.

No one is more important than anyone else. Everyone has their role to play, and really good players put just about as much work into the game as a GM does.

If everyone wants to play a shoot-'em-up, that's 100% okay. If everyone wants to play an over-the-top pink mohawk game with no dice pools less than 40, that's 100% okay. If everyone wants to play a down-to-earth neo-noir game, that's 100% okay. If one person wants to do one, and everyone else wants to do something else... that's not quite so okay. Middle ground has to be found, regardless of who the outlier is.

[sunnyside]

A good GM yes. The average GM? Not so much. And by definition the average ones are more common.

Ok, so there's probably a fallacy in there somewhere, but it remains that a player should know what sort of GM they have, and what sort of players they're going to be with, before they build themselves a dedicated face type character, or they have a high probability of frustration.


That said the reason I encourage it in my players and often go that route myself if I'm a player is that, when it works well, the face can provide a great playing experience and really improve the game overall.

[KnightRunner]

A good GM yes. The average GM? Not so much. And by definition the average ones are more common.

Sounds like you have not had good luck with GM's. Or maybe mine has been good. But I would disagree with where you put the average. Can not think of ever having "Bad" GM in Shadowrun. I Can think of a handful that I have experienced in other games. On a scale of 1 - 10 (1= terrible, 10 = phenomenal) I would place the average SR GM at about 7. In my experience of course.

[sunnyside]

Sounds like you have not had good luck with GM's. Or maybe mine has been good. But I would disagree with where you put the average. Can not think of ever having "Bad" GM in Shadowrun. I Can think of a handful that I have experienced in other games. On a scale of 1 - 10 (1= terrible, 10 = phenomenal) I would place the average SR GM at about 7. In my experience of course.

Well, since they tend to be older I'd say SR GMs are generally a cut above your average DM.

However you don't just have to be a "bad" GM in order to make playing a face a bad experience. I've been enjoying myself in a number of games after I'd figured out to add the social skills as a minor addition instead of a focus , but than someone joined and made a face type.

There is a big difference between being able to sling a few social dice for some fun RP, the odd negotiation, or to try a different way to solve a problem and having that aspect be your character's bread and butter.

For example take Mantis, whose group had a face.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=912496

It sounds like most of the time the face wasn't accomplishing too much, and when they did have their moment to shine it meant the rest of the team was sitting around bored. Which works for a single game with a good crew, but if the face tried to do that very often you start drifting into the territory where the troll sammie starts thinking of ways to "have fun" which usually sabatoge the face, bypassing him using some other option at their disposal (the mage using a control spell to accomplish the same thing), and/or enjoying watching him go down hard when the face gets picked up on a detect lies spell or something and starts burning edge to stay alive.

[nezumi]

As a GM, in such a situation, I'd say "okay, so those three hits were... just enough to get you to overcome the obvious social screwup you committed by insulting him in front of his men. He *probably* won't kill you for what you said, he actually did chuckle, but he's impatient now and has no intent of letting you stick around to insult him more in front of his men."

That's interesting, because as a GM, I'd say "your three hits tell you that insulting him is a stupid idea. Do you wish to continue?" Just like when the street sam gets 3 hits on quickdrawing, I don't say "earlier you said you insert a clip in your handgun. Handguns don't take clips, so it falls out when you draw the weapon. Also, you didn't chamber a round, so the firearm is empty".

I don't expect my players to be experts at what they are playing. I will tell them when what they are doing is not what the character would do, because of their lack of knowledge, and give them the opportunity to continue or not. I don't penalize players because they are not full-time criminals in real life, nor expect them to study these subjects in their off time.

[KnightRunner]

However you don't just have to be a "bad" GM in order to make playing a face a bad experience.

How is that statement in anyway related to an archetype? You seem to be saying that one can have a bad play experience with a mediocre GM. Which I would agree with. But that can be true with any archetype. Heck it is possible to have a bad play experience with a great GM.

I've been enjoying myself in a number of games after I'd figured out to add the social skills as a minor addition instead of a focus , but than someone joined and made a face type.

This makes no sense to me. Social skill are as much a part of the game as any other set of skills. I mean it is the same as saying, "Maybe I should start taking some firearms skills as a minor addition and see if they are useful?" Did it never occur to you that your character may have to interact with someone at some point?

It sounds like most of the time the face wasn't accomplishing too much, and when they did have their moment to shine it meant the rest of the team was sitting around bored. Which works for a single game with a good crew, but if the face tried to do that very often you start drifting into the territory where the troll sammie starts thinking of ways to "have fun" which usually sabatoge the face, bypassing him using some other option at their disposal (the mage using a control spell to accomplish the same thing), and/or enjoying watching him go down hard when the face gets picked up on a detect lies spell or something and starts burning edge to stay alive.

First of all, the waiting your turn, scenario is always going to be a problem in RPG's. It is what happens in games. It is just as relevant if you are waiting on the hacker to hack, the rigger to do their thing, the mage to to be all magic like, or the face to talk it up. Having a player who hogs the spotlight or a player that just sits and stares, has nothing to do with archetype. A group should work together as a team and use their strengths to accomplish the mission.

[Ol' Scratch]

Exactly. That's absolutely no different than having to deal with a hacker in the Matrix or a mage on an astral quest. At least in social situations everyone can actually contribute via the teamwork rules.