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Meriss
I'm not much of a social butterfly. So I guess I don't always see the point of being a Social character achetype.

But forgive me for asking what does a Face do during a run beyond negoitating with Mr. J., schmoozing contacts for more goodies and the occaisional Q/A?

Don't just feed me skill thoughts here agng, talk to me in terms of generalities, examples and so forth. Lets get a nice discussion going. Show me your favourite builds/chars. Stories. C'mon gang! Lets really do some schooling
DireRadiant
The face can, research, find people to research, get other people to research, investigate, ask people people for information, infiltrate the facility through social engineering, get the passwords and accounts through social engineering, recruit an insider to help, talk the gang out of causing you problems, talk the gang into helping you, convince the star to be bribed to let you pass the checkpoint with all that cyber, convince the star that those other guys did it, and a whole bunch of other cools things to comp[letely do the run without any help from hackers, TMs, Riggers, Physads, mystic adepts, Sammies, Mages and all those other useless people.
Mantis
I've got a couple of good ones for faces. We ran the Denver Missions campaign and in the first adventure you have to move this envelope from point A to B. A bunch of different people want it and try to stop you. As scripted, the team gets stopped by both the Yakuza and the triads who want the envelope. It was supposed to be either give it up or fight it out kind of scenario. Our face pulls an old jedi mind trick out of his and convinces both groups that our team is actually just decoys and someone else has the envelope. He rolled really well on the con roll and role played the encounter well too. Net result, the team continues without a fight or pissing off either group or our employers. Job well done.
The second time he pulls off this type of mojo is in a later Denver Mission where the team has to convince a gang to either join the Vory or else go back to their original sponsor gang. This whole run could have been just strong armed but the face convinces the parties involved to do whats best for the gang and finishes without a shot being fired. He only kind of pissed off the sponsor gang and that more because it was scripted that way than anything he actually did. The rest of the team felt a little superfluous on that run as they never even pulled out weapons.
So in sort, a good face can get you out of tricky situations where most others see it as a fight or flight type thing. Plus they can get you that rare gear you wanted with the insane availability.
Ol' Scratch
Sadly, it's one of those roles you have to really like and even have a natural knack for. Die rolls only help a Face so much. Most of it is knowing how to talk, who to talk to, and when to talk to them. It's easily the most roleplaying-dependent character type in the game. Sure, you can rely on your dice pools for everything, but it's been my observation over the years that people who do that end up disliking the Face character type. Since, as said, it's very much a roleplaying character type.

That said, a Face does a lot more than just hanging out with contacts, securing gear, or performing legwork. While the Covert Ops Specialist will try to sneak around some guards and the Gun Bunny will try to blow them to bits, the Face will walk up to them with a charming smile and con his way past them. Possibly getting a pass or even an escort to walk him through the remaining security checkpoints if he's really good.

Just look at film and television for more examples and role models. The archetype is arguably even named after one of the best examples; Face from the A-Team. Then you have examples like Robert Redford's character in S.N.E.A.K.E.R.S. or, hell, even Bill Murray in Ghostbusters. There's a ton of examples of what a Face does and what they are. Social Skills are (in my opinion anyway) the most powerful skills in the game, trumping even magic. You just have to have a cunning player behind the character.
Critias
For the best example of a primarily social character that I can recall from fairly modern cinema -- and one that even has kind of a Shadowrun feel to it -- check out the Gone Baby Gone. That's a character that knows everybody, has connections all through his area, and found a way to make a living by talking to people and being perceptive (plus carrying a gun).

That said? Keep in mind that a Face doesn't have to be purely social, and hands-down worthless at everything else. You can still pick up a few combat skills, some driving, electronics, whatever floats your boat. Heck, there are plenty of magical types out there that pick Charisma as one of their tradition's attributes, and could sling fast-talk dice with the best of 'em.

X-Kalibur
For good social engineering/ Face work as well, you have Burn Notice. And really, how can any show with Bruce Campbell be bad?
tete
A good Face is just that the Face of the team. He/She can walk into the target building, grab the loot and walk out without security being the wiser. The Face role being effective really depends alot on your GMs style though. If its more kick in the door gun battles, your going to die alot.
Ascalaphus
Leverage also has a lot of examples of how a face can contribute to a party. Sophie is clearly a Face, but almost all the members do it from time to time.
Bearclaw
I'm replaying Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines as a Toreador. It's amazing how many situations have come up where I've just talked people into stuff, where in previous times through I had to sneak or fight.
Same with playing a face. A good face can walk past a security desk, talk their way through an ID check at a border or convince the stormtroopers that they're looking for different droids. Basically a good face wins several fights on his own by not making it a fight.
Samoth
Faces aren't always Elven prettyboys with max charisma and a Brinks truck of dice.

Try making the biggest, meanest, ugliest Trog that you can. I'm talking max body and strength, and charisma as close to negative as you can get. Pump him full of the most obviously threatening cyber, give him nasty guns and comically oversized blades, big ass troll modified Harley Scorpion, and a high intimidation skill. Watch as everyone cowers in fear and gives him whatever he wants anyway.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Apr 9 2010, 11:51 AM) *
For good social engineering/ Face work as well, you have Burn Notice. And really, how can any show with Bruce Campbell be bad?


There is an awful lot of planning that goes into the jobs the main character does as well. Excellent show for those needing an example of a shadowrun team of the mirrored shades professional types (IMHO).
D2F
QUOTE (Samoth @ Apr 9 2010, 05:53 PM) *
Faces aren't always Elven prettyboys with max charisma and a Brinks truck of dice.

Try making the biggest, meanest, ugliest Trog that you can. I'm talking max body and strength, and charisma as close to negative as you can get. Pump him full of the most obviously threatening cyber, give him nasty guns and comically oversized blades, big ass troll modified Harley Scorpion, and a high intimidation skill. Watch as everyone cowers in fear and gives him whatever he wants anyway.

While that would constitute as a "social front", it's not a "face". Also, Intimidation is a charisma based skill (since charisma is not visual appearance, but presence among other things. It is mostly how you can influence your social environment (regardless of the direction of your influence). You can be butt ugly, huge, muscled up the wazoo and STILL fail to intimidate people (granted, that is difficult, but possible).

The role of a face, however is not just to be your social calling card, but also your main connector to information. Beyond that he is also your social facilitator. That includes disguise, palming, trickery, conivery and other means of "infiltration" in broad daylight.

It would be very hard for the troll from your excemple to act in that role.
KnightRunner
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Apr 9 2010, 10:51 AM) *
For good social engineering/ Face work as well, you have Burn Notice. And really, how can any show with Bruce Campbell be bad?



QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Apr 9 2010, 11:40 AM) *
Leverage also has a lot of examples of how a face can contribute to a party. Sophie is clearly a Face, but almost all the members do it from time to time.



I would argue that it is easier to complete a mission with a party full of faces than it is with a party full of sammies. Faces can just simply push aside any problem technical, physical, or magical with the clever application of BS.

In the TV examples above, social engineering is far more common than any other skillset. Even the "muscle" characters apply their social skill more than they do their martial ones. Fiona is a gun toting badass street sam in a pleasant package, but she can play the con as well as anyone else. Same with Eliot, who is an adept if I ever seen one. He is a combat monster, but more often relies, begrudgingly, on his Con skill.

Wandering One
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 9 2010, 10:26 AM) *
While that would constitute as a "social front", it's not a "face". Also, Intimidation is a charisma based skill (since charisma is not visual appearance, but presence among other things. It is mostly how you can influence your social environment (regardless of the direction of your influence). You can be butt ugly, huge, muscled up the wazoo and STILL fail to intimidate people (granted, that is difficult, but possible).

The role of a face, however is not just to be your social calling card, but also your main connector to information. Beyond that he is also your social facilitator. That includes disguise, palming, trickery, conivery and other means of "infiltration" in broad daylight.

It would be very hard for the troll from your excemple to act in that role.


Well, there's also the idea that the face is the guy when he's done with the con, the security guard gives him his number and says call him anytime he needs some help again. The troll, on the other hand, has his license plate copied, sent to Knight Errant along with pictures, the guard's fired for having no cohones, and your face is on every telephone pole for two miles.
nezumi
From a security standpoint, the weakest point is ALMOST ALWAYS people. A computer can be secured to the point that it will take, literally, billions of years to break into it. While any facility can be broken into eventually, properly done it will resist even organized teams of professionals from breaking in for days - and not without being noticed. Technology has a very, very low failure rate. Humans, however, have a very high one. They help their 'friends'. They share information. The hold open doors for each other. And that doesn't touch on spirits who, depending on how you play them, may be conned or encouraged just as easily, or moreso, than your average guard.

The face is a specialist who has looked at the weakest point in every organization, and trained in how to exploit it. The face can out-hack the hacker, disarm the gun bunny, cheat the mage, and seduce the adept.
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (tete @ Apr 9 2010, 09:03 AM) *
A good Face is just that the Face of the team. He/She can walk into the target building, grab the loot and walk out without security being the wiser. The Face role being effective really depends alot on your GMs style though. If its more kick in the door gun battles, your going to die alot.


It isn't just kick in gun door battles that cause a face to die. In general, a *great* face won't be able to just walk in and take any significant loot unnoticed without a GM being very lenient. It is way too easy to have a face lose 5 to 10+ dice from their Con pool not to mention passing retinal scanners, fingerprint scanners, rfid scanners, voice scanners, facial recognition scanners, breath scanners, olfactory scanners, cyberware scanners etc. etc. etc. Clever mages may protect their lab by requiring a specific astral *signature* to be seen by a spirit to avoid raising an alarm or just the whole awakened vs. mundane aura can cause problems. The target item itself may have a hidden rfid tag.
nezumi
As an aside, one thing you're going to realize, in order to RUN a face, is the necessity of props, technical lingo and knowledge, and contacts.

Props are things like IDs, badges, uniforms, fingerprint kits, computer IDs, etc. They range from the trivial to the VERY expensive.
Technical lingo and knowledge is required to pretend to be someone you're not - the auditor, a visitor from another office, the new employee, someone from the field, a police officer, etc.
Contacts basically fill in the gaps - who is the manager in the office. How do I get my name added as a user. Where does Joe eat dinner.

Buying Contacts is tough - 90% of them will never be useful. But the one that does become useful will save the day. My general focus is to avoid the general contacts (fixers, etc.) and focus on specialized contacts. Get a few who provide a particular good or service you'll need (gun runners, smugglers, shoemaker, corp. decker), a few who make the world run (politicians, government employees, corporate drones), and a few who have access to a lot of information (news reporters, politicians, R&D folk).

Buying knowledge can be done very muchso using the old knowsoft. Cheap and easy.

As for tools... The books barely touch on these. I don't know where the definitive source is for this. SotA64 had some good stuff, but still not comprehensive. Maybe someone should make a list of those things, really.
tete
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 06:54 PM) *
It isn't just kick in gun door battles that cause a face to die. In general, a *great* face won't be able to just walk in and take any significant loot unnoticed without a GM being very lenient. It is way too easy to have a face lose 5 to 10+ dice from their Con pool not to mention passing retinal scanners, fingerprint scanners, rfid scanners, voice scanners, facial recognition scanners, breath scanners, olfactory scanners, cyberware scanners etc. etc. etc. Clever mages may protect their lab by requiring a specific astral *signature* to be seen by a spirit to avoid raising an alarm or just the whole awakened vs. mundane aura can cause problems. The target item itself may have a hidden rfid tag.


Respectfully disagree, for reasons that most people mentioned above. Anything you can come up with as a GM a Face should be able to get around by social engineering. If a person can get in then that person can be manipulated, copied, etc. The problem I've found is the Shadowrun GMs who take the Me vs the Players approach and even though the Face thought of everything a random guard attacks. "Cus its not fun without combat" or "I wont let you get out that easy from foiling my BBEG"
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (tete @ Apr 9 2010, 12:12 PM) *
Respectfully disagree, for reasons that most people mentioned above. Anything you can come up with as a GM a Face should be able to get around by social engineering. If a person can get in then that person can be manipulated, copied, etc. The problem I've found is the Shadowrun GMs who take the Me vs the Players approach and even though the Face thought of everything a random guard attacks. "Cus its not fun without combat" or "I wont let you get out that easy from foiling my BBEG"


Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.
KnightRunner
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM) *
Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.



What exactly is your point here? That the face will not work because he could get a bad die roll? How is that not going to be the situation for any archetype in any shadowrun?

But umm yeah how does the level of security change the basic premise?
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM) *
Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.



And this is where the GM has to go the sandbox route vs script route. Be consistent with what is there, and don't change it up if the players come up with a plan to make their lives easy (+1 Karma for a good plan I always say).
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (KnightRunner @ Apr 9 2010, 01:47 PM) *
What exactly is your point here? That the face will not work because he could get a bad die roll? How is that not going to be the situation for any archetype in any shadowrun?

But umm yeah how does the level of security change the basic premise?


My point is that a face with some antisecurity devices is not a 1 man crew as many in this thread seem to suggest. *Especially* in areas with a lot of different security devices.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 01:37 PM) *
Sure, for low security places I agree. However, for high security places a face isn't just going roll Con all the way to whatever item they are looking for any more than a stealth ninja is going to roll Infiltration all the way there. Saying that there are ways around a particular security device is a far cry from having it work and no one noticing you using it.

First, how is "just rolling Con" any different than, say, "just rolling Pistols" or any other skill? And why would they just be using Con anyway? If you have a player with a Face character who's only rolling dice, please see my first post in this thread.

Second, why on earth would you think no one would notice a Face doing that? A Face's entire point of being is to be noticed. By as many people as possible, usually. The whole point is that, at the very least, they're providing a distraction for the rest of their team if not outright trying to seduce, befriend, con, or fool their way past sentient beings and into secure areas. They don't rely on guns or stealth. Those are all secondary if not tertiary concerns. And like any other type of character, they don't use just one tactic. If anything, a good Face has to rely on a wide array of tactics, tricks, and gadgets to get the job done. Probably more so than most.

And finally, despite your belief to the contrary, I'd argue that a Face is the one character type that could solo most runs in the game.
Eratosthenes
The Face shouldn't be able to just walk up to a guard, roll some Con dice, and walk past. He needs a story, and/or corroborating evidence. And besides, a good face wouldn't necessarily be trying to Con the guard, anyhow.

He'd start with someone who works there. Maybe he convinces a mid-level manager that they should bring him in for an interview, or to consult on a project. Maybe he convinces head of security that they need an upgrade to technomancer-proof their systems. Or maybe he just dresses up like one of the working stiffs, and acts like he belongs, walking in with a crowd of workers when they arrive for their shift.

It's been done a lot in real life; I recall reading an article detailing how one man (who was finally caught) had managed to waltz into many large companies, and walk out with valuable laptops on a regular basis, despite them having security in place. Or for the perfect example, look at the recent snafu with the uninvited guests at the White House. Sometimes if you just act like you belong, people think you belong.

Social Engineering also refers to setting up situations that cause someone to divulge more secret information that can be used to access their records, steal their identity, etc. or otherwise conning them into doing something they wouldn't normally do.

A high-security facility might not let a person walk in without a retinal scan, but who's to say you can't convince someone on the inside to let you in, or even bring your target out to you? Just like a gunfighter has to use tactics, and cover, instead of waltzing in a'blazing, so does the Face have to apply strategy and tactics to how exactly they'll pull off the con.
KnightRunner
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 02:55 PM) *
My point is that a face with some antisecurity devices is not a 1 man crew as many in this thread seem to suggest. *Especially* in areas with a lot of different security devices.


I do agree that a diverse group of shadowrunner with varying resources is the preferred way to go. But that does not change that assertion that a face can be useful in any situation. imho More so than any other archetype. Which by the way is what I and others were trying to say. Not that they are a one man wrecking crew.
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 9 2010, 01:57 PM) *
First, how is "just rolling Con" any different than, say, "just rolling Pistols" or any other skill? And why would they just be using Con anyway? If you have a player with a Face character who's only rolling dice, please see my first post in this thread.


It isn't any different... which is exactly my point. I don't expect some pistols/demolition expert to waltz into a heavily secured area solo either.

QUOTE
Second, why on earth would you think no one would notice a Face doing that? A Face's entire point of being is to be noticed. By as many people as possible, usually. The whole point is that, at the very least, they're providing a distraction for the rest of their team if not outright trying to seduce, befriend, con, or fool their way past sentient beings and into secure areas. They don't rely on guns or stealth. Those are all secondary if not tertiary concerns. And like any other type of character, they don't use just one tactic. If anything, a good Face has to rely on a wide array of tactics, tricks, and gadgets to get the job done. Probably more so than most.


No, there is a difference between a face talking their way past a checkpoint vs. trying to fool technological/magical security devices.

QUOTE
And finally, despite your belief to the contrary, I'd argue that a Face is the one character type that could solo most runs in the game.


No way, not a high security building with a good deal of technological and magical security. There is no conning a high force possession spirit guarding a lab who is only allowing a particular spell with a particular astral *signature* to enter. You can't even communicate with it unless you are astrally perceiving until it possesses something... which will be you.
nezumi
Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.

KnightRunner
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 03:36 PM) *
No way, not a high security building with a good deal of technological and magical security. There is no conning a high force possession spirit guarding a lab who is only allowing a particular spell with a particular astral *signature* to enter. You can't even communicate with it unless you are astrally perceiving until it possesses something... which will be you.



Ok gonna call BS here. Exactly what would any other archetype do about this extreme security? Without anybody noticing? Is your point that you can come up with a security system that no one can get into?

Just for the record there are a number of ways a face can get around even the spirit. Without going directly to the Adept or mystic adept, who makes great face and can handle spirits. But the easiest way is to go after the summoner. They gotta be somewhere and have a weak spot.

Is he a family man? "Dismiss the spirit at exactly 9pm or the family Chia pet gets it."

How about a bribe. "Good money, You want in?"
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 9 2010, 02:43 PM) *
Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.


Getting past the gate is a far cry from delving into the bowels of Area 51.
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (KnightRunner @ Apr 9 2010, 02:44 PM) *
Ok gonna call BS here. Exactly what would any other archetype do about this extreme security? Without anybody noticing? Is your point that you can come up with a security system that no one can get into?

Just for the record there are a number of ways a face can get around even the spirit. Without going directly to the Adept or mystic adept, who makes great face and can handle spirits. But the easiest way is to go after the summoner. They gotta be somewhere and have a weak spot.

Is he a family man? "Dismiss the spirit at exactly 9pm or the family Chia pet gets it."

How about a bribe. "Good money, You want in?"


Sure, but that isn't using face skills and it isn't going solo - and there are plenty of ways around that spirit if you brought a mage along with you - which again is my point. Also, summoning a spirit isn't *extreme* security there are Watcher spirits whose sole purpose is to do exactly that. Are you saying some uber high paid corporate research mage wouldn't be smart enough or have the foresight to add his own security measures and you could just bribe him? I mean, if you have the info on said mage *and* the money to bribe him.. why did the Johnson even bother with you... why not just go directly to the mage if he could be bought? It is likely that you might not even know that the spirit exists. Even an adept or mystic adept won't be a great face if they have to focus on getting rid of high force spirits.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 03:36 PM) *
No way, not a high security building with a good deal of technological and magical security. There is no conning a high force possession spirit guarding a lab who is only allowing a particular spell with a particular astral *signature* to enter. You can't even communicate with it unless you are astrally perceiving until it possesses something... which will be you.

I didn't say they could do everything. I said, of all the character types in the game, they have the best shot of accomplishing anything. They're easily the most diverse and universally useful archetypes around. Any group performing any kind of run will benefit by having one on their team. You can't say that about most other archetypes.
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 9 2010, 03:00 PM) *
I didn't say they could do everything. I said, of all the character types in the game, they have the best shot of accomplishing anything. They're easily the most diverse and universally useful archetypes around. Any group performing any kind of run will benefit by having one on their team. You can't say that about most other archetypes.


TBH, I would say a mage is way more useful. Many of the mage spells can be abused as can spirits. The mage can be as good at reconnaissance as fighting. The next best would be a hacker/technomancer who can also do some amazing things. Then I would go with the face. Then the muscle. Then the rigger. All serve their purpose. People just made it sound like you can just Ocean's 11 everything... when that is clearly not the case.
KnightRunner
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 03:59 PM) *
Sure, but that isn't using face skills and it isn't going solo - and there are plenty of ways around that spirit if you brought a mage along with you - which again is my point. Also, summoning a spirit isn't *extreme* security there are Watcher spirits whose sole purpose is to do exactly that. Are you saying some uber high paid corporate research mage wouldn't be smart enough or have the foresight to add his own security measures and you could just bribe him? I mean, if you have the info on said mage *and* the money to bribe him.. why did the Johnson even bother with you... why not just go directly to the mage if he could be bought? It is likely that you might not even know that the spirit exists. Even an adept or mystic adept won't be a great face if they have to focus on getting rid of high force spirits.



umm what? I never said anything about anyone other than a face. I was pointing out that adepts and mystic adepts make great faces. Facial Sculpt and kenesics.

No the research mage might not do such things as he is supposed to be researching things and not providing security. If working for a corp, he would live with corp security and not add his own because thats how corps work. Who knows who the boss is going to send for a report or to observe. Let one of your bosses assistants get toasted by a spirit and see how your career goes. Not to mention that such things cost money.

As to why you were if you had those resources. Well first off you were hired for the same reason corps with endless money hire shadowrunners. Deniability. not because they could not do it themselves. Because they do not want anyone else to know. Second of all, part of being a shadowrunner is to find that kind of information and use it to your advantage.
KnightRunner
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 04:11 PM) *
... when that is clearly not the case.



You have yet to evidence this.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 9 2010, 04:43 PM) *
Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.

Being that guy quiet a lot, I respectfully disagree. Granted, there certainly are people that are like that, but they are, how to say this nicely ... weak willed. Some can be tricked sure, but there are very clear and concise requirements for access to a military installation, even for getting in the front door.

The sentry on a post can deny access to anyone save the CO of that installation. I've personally refused access to a 3 star admiral because he didn't have the proper creds on him. If he'd had a problem with it, then he could have called the CO. Then it's the COs call, not mine. But guess what? The CO or his rep (much more likely, probably the OoD) would have to come down and personally allow access. That's true even if it's an E-1 denying access.

At the basic entry at least, you're a lot better off making a good forgery of proper creds, and looking the part.

For a Face trying to make access to someplace you're not supposed to be, follow two basic rules:
1)Look like you know where you're going.
2) Look like you belong.

Having other props (like fake badges, and good ones) are important, but secondary. Finding the kinks in the security, especially the people that are susceptible/gullible, is a good way to go.

Then convincing people in general, whole 'nother approach.
tete
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 09:48 PM) *
Getting past the gate is a far cry from delving into the bowels of Area 51.


Sure, but if you hang out at the Las Vegas airport you can watch the plane for Area 51 come and go (Its unmarked but pretty obvious). People get on and off and (shocker) those people have been inside the bowls of Area 51. All you have to do is manipulate them. Thats why Security Clearences require them to talk to your friends, family, have a good credit rating, pollygraph, etc. They want you to not be easily bribable.

Social Engineering is THE threat in security areas. I have to take a social engineering test every year for my clearance requirements (and my clearance aint that high).

[edit] I also think your getting hung up on the rules. A Face character is more than a high charisma high con guy. Hes the front man of the party. A street sam isnt only going to have gun skills, hes going to have stealth and other things to. The Face is just a way to say "I try to use my charm and disguise more than guns" the Shaman/Face as been a core archtype for years.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 04:11 PM) *
TBH, I would say a mage is way more useful. Many of the mage spells can be abused as can spirits. The mage can be as good at reconnaissance as fighting. The next best would be a hacker/technomancer who can also do some amazing things. Then I would go with the face. Then the muscle. Then the rigger. All serve their purpose.

Yes, and put the mage in an area with a high background count (say, a rare run that goes up in orbit) or a heavily warded area and he's suddenly a lot less useful. The Face? Still every bit as useful. Even in a physical conflict, most decent Faces can hold their own courtesy of the fact that it doesn't take too many BPs to be a badass Face. Their talents work equally well in the Matrix, against spirits (despite your assumptions to the contrary) and other astral or magical threats, and in situations where magic and Matrix tricks are a very bad idea. For instance, it's easy for a dual-natured bodyguard to see you casting a Control Thoughts/Emotions/Actions spell on a Johnson. Not so much a Face using his social skills.

QUOTE
People just made it sound like you can just Ocean's 11 everything... when that is clearly not the case.

You can't put together a plan that uses everyone's skills to the best of their abilities? I thought that was the whole point of most runs.
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (KnightRunner @ Apr 9 2010, 03:11 PM) *
umm what? I never said anything about anyone other than a face. I was pointing out that adepts and mystic adepts make great faces. Facial Sculpt and kenesics.


So let me get this straight. You as a face, threaten some mage with no muscle behind you when he can mentally command one of his bound spirits to possess you on the spot? Also, Facial Sculpt is a horrible power - it seems great at first until you realize that as an elf or human you are pretty much limited to looking like elves or humans. As an ork you can pass for an ork but not a troll because you are too small and not anything else because of your skin color (you need to add Melanin Control) and even then you would probably not look like the person you were trying to impersonate... unless that person was an ork. Dwarves? Too small. Trolls? Too big. And you still can't get past DNA/retinal scans with those powers. You are better off buying the face paste. Why waste 2 power points on something fancy makeup can do? Kinesics is awesome for a face as is Commanding Voice and Heightened Concentration (which effectively eliminates the negative dice pool modifiers of suspicious/hostile NPCs).

QUOTE
No the research mage might not do such things as he is supposed to be researching things and not providing security. If working for a corp, he would live with corp security and not add his own because thats how corps work. Who knows who the boss is going to send for a report or to observe. Let one of your bosses assistants get toasted by a spirit and see how your career goes. Not to mention that such things cost money.

Really? You don't password protect your computer at work? Or lock desk drawers? The beauty of a possession spirit is that it doesn't hurt you to subdue you. It just takes you over and walks you to security.

QUOTE
As to why you were if you had those resources. Well first off you were hired for the same reason corps with endless money hire shadowrunners. Deniability. not because they could not do it themselves. Because they do not want anyone else to know. Second of all, part of being a shadowrunner is to find that kind of information and use it to your advantage.


One degree of separation isn't that great. Are all your runners housing cyanide capsules in their tooth compartments so they don't give up information on the person that hired them? Or turn on them? Deniability is all well and good, but again, if you can bribe the mage outright then your Johnson really doesn't need the runners. Runners are just as much a liability as they are an asset depending on how things play out.
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 9 2010, 03:28 PM) *
Yes, and put the mage in an area with a high background count (say, a rare run that goes up in orbit) or a heavily warded area and he's suddenly a lot less useful. The Face? Still every bit as useful. Even in a physical conflict, most decent Faces can hold their own courtesy of the fact that it doesn't take too many BPs to be a badass Face. Their talents work equally well in the Matrix, against spirits (despite your assumptions to the contrary) and other astral or magical threats, and in situations where magic and Matrix tricks are a very bad idea. For instance, it's easy for a dual-natured bodyguard to see you casting a Control Thoughts/Emotions/Actions spell on a Johnson. Not so much a Face using his social skills.


You can't put together a plan that uses everyone's skills to the best of their abilities? I thought that was the whole point of most runs.


An adept face would have similar difficulties. Also, I would tend to disagree that it doesn't take a lot of BP to build a bad ass face - at least the ones described in this thread.

There are a lot of different scenarios here. A mundane face will never be as good as an adept face. A mundane face can't even communicate with a possession spirit. I understand that there are places where a mage will be less useful than a mundane face due to background count... but do you really think that that would be the case if you were raiding some high security corp building? Look, again, my point is that a face, no matter how good, doesn't just waltz into wherever "social engineering" his way solo - which is what many people suggest is possible and even highly probable.
KnightRunner
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 04:37 PM) *
So let me get this straight. You as a face, threaten some mage with no muscle behind you when he can mentally command one of his bound spirits to possess you on the spot?


Umm yeah, why not. the whole point is to have something that threatens them. No one said it has to be your ability to beat them in a straight up fight. Just something that they care about more than their Pet Project.

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 04:37 PM) *
Really? You don't password protect your computer at work? Or lock desk drawers? The beauty of a possession spirit is that it doesn't hurt you to subdue you. It just takes you over and walks you to security.


Yes to the password, no to the locking. The locking is strictly against policy for our company as they require access at all times. Our security team must be able to get into anything at any time. Oh and we are required to log our password with out IT department. Most people just let IT assign them a password. Welcome to corporate life.

Oh and when the nice spirit walks me to security I use my Face skills to convince them that it is all a big misunderstanding.


QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 04:37 PM) *
One degree of separation isn't that great. Are all your runners housing cyanide capsules in their tooth compartments so they don't give up information on the person that hired them? Or turn on them? Deniability is all well and good, but again, if you can bribe the mage outright then your Johnson really doesn't need the runners. Runners are just as much a liability as they are an asset depending on how things play out.



Umm so I ask again, why does anyone ever use shaodowruners? You realize that you are arguing against the entire point of the game?

What Runners Do
Shadowrunners commit crimes, usually for money. When a corporation or other sponsor
needs someone to do dirty work, they look to the shadows. As “deniable assets,” runners
make advantageous—and expendable—tools.
SR4A p16
KnightRunner
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 04:52 PM) *
Look, again, my point is that a face, no matter how good, doesn't just waltz into wherever "social engineering" his way solo - which is what many people suggest is possible and even highly probable.



Never suggested probability. That is a function of the Dicepools and thresholds.

I can give numerous in-game and Real life examples where social engineering has allowed someone into highly secure areas. Indeed others already have. So "not possible" is easily disproved.
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (KnightRunner @ Apr 9 2010, 03:53 PM) *
Oh and when the nice spirit walks me to security I use my Face skills to convince them that it is all a big misunderstanding.


You *can't* talk to the spirit. It is *possessing* you. It is walking you to security with your own body.

I understand the point of Shadowrun but in general Shadowrunners aren't hired because of deniability... they are hired because of their expendability or possibly their specialized skillset.
KnightRunner
QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Apr 9 2010, 04:17 PM) *
Being that guy quiet a lot, I respectfully disagree. Granted, there certainly are people that are like that, but they are, how to say this nicely ... weak willed. Some can be tricked sure, but there are very clear and concise requirements for access to a military installation, even for getting in the front door.

The sentry on a post can deny access to anyone save the CO of that installation. I've personally refused access to a 3 star admiral because he didn't have the proper creds on him. If he'd had a problem with it, then he could have called the CO. Then it's the COs call, not mine. But guess what? The CO or his rep (much more likely, probably the OoD) would have to come down and personally allow access. That's true even if it's an E-1 denying access.

At the basic entry at least, you're a lot better off making a good forgery of proper creds, and looking the part.

For a Face trying to make access to someplace you're not supposed to be, follow two basic rules:
1)Look like you know where you're going.
2) Look like you belong.

Having other props (like fake badges, and good ones) are important, but secondary. Finding the kinks in the security, especially the people that are susceptible/gullible, is a good way to go.

Then convincing people in general, whole 'nother approach.


The trick to this situation is knowing what con to pull and when. That's what great faces do. If pulling the "I am a Colonel so let me in" act, you need to make sure you are gonna pull it on someone likely to succumb to it. Once again the face has a number of options. Charm a drunk GI into telling you all about how guard duty works. Or just seduce them into sneaking you inside. Find something on them, BTL habit maybe? So when the "Colonel" shows up one of the guards says, "Umm yeah the CO called and said the Colonel was on the way." Lot of possibilities.
KnightRunner
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 05:11 PM) *
You *can't* talk to the spirit. It is *possessing* you. It is walking you to security with your own body.


Who said anything about talking to the spirit. You said all it does is walk you to security. You talk to the nice security guards it leads you to.

QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 05:11 PM) *
I understand the point of Shadowrun but in general Shadowrunners aren't hired because of deniability... they are hired because of their expendability or possibly their specialized skillset.



And umm so you are saying the designers just threw that in for the heck of it? You mean that the paragraph they used to summarize the entire existence of shadowrunners and essence of the game is incorrect? They got it wrong?
kzt
QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 9 2010, 01:43 PM) *
Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.

No.

In high security sites it doesn't work. You walk across the yellow line and you'll get shot.
tete
QUOTE (KnightRunner @ Apr 9 2010, 10:03 PM) *
Never suggested probability. That is a function of the Dicepools and thresholds.

I can give numerous in-game and Real life examples where social engineering has allowed someone into highly secure areas.


Would one happen to have happen in 2000, involve one guy, a janitors uniform, one of the biggest banks in the US, a dreamcast, and about 8 billion dollars? That one is my favorite.

QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 9 2010, 10:26 PM) *
In high security sites it doesn't work. You walk across the yellow line and you'll get shot.


I think you misunderstood nezumi. I believe its assumed people are allowed in the room.
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (KnightRunner @ Apr 9 2010, 04:16 PM) *
Who said anything about talking to the spirit. You said all it does is walk you to security. You talk to the nice security guards it leads you to.

And umm so you are saying the designers just threw that in for the heck of it? You mean that the paragraph they used to summarize the entire existence of shadowrunners and essence of the game is incorrect? They got it wrong?


Ha. Right after the spirit explains what happened? They just let you go?

And yes, the designers did get the deniability part wrong with the way they designed the game. It is fluff, but not logical. When everything in the world can be hacked and traced and drones the size of insects can follow someone unknowingly and spirits can follow someone unknowingly and magic can control you etc. etc. deniability isn't really a logical reason for hiring someone. This is especially true when runners may need to choose between loyalty and death or giving up what they know of their employer.
Matsci
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 02:54 PM) *
Ha. Right after the spirit explains what happened? They just let you go?


Yes you say " I'm Mr. StolenID from Internal Secuirty, and I need to talk to Dr. Y about his unathorized additions to security."
KnightRunner


QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Apr 9 2010, 05:54 PM) *
And yes, the designers did get the deniability part wrong with the way they designed the game. It is fluff, but not logical. When everything in the world can be hacked and traced and drones the size of insects can follow someone unknowingly and spirits can follow someone unknowingly and magic can control you etc. etc. deniability isn't really a logical reason for hiring someone. This is especially true when runners may need to choose between loyalty and death or giving up what they know of their employer.



Ok I am done if you are gonna argue that the designers are wrong. By virtue of the fact that they created the game, they simply CAN NOT be wrong. What they say goes. It is their playground, their rules. They get to design game concepts. I think you may be blurring the line between reality and fantasy if you think otherwise.
tagz
I agree that social skills are definately some of the most useful skills in the game. They can do so much more then just get you better gear for less.

That said though, there are limits. So somebody buys into your con, that doesn't mean things automatically go your way. Maybe I can convince an Ares guard that I'm in fact Damien Knight, but he might be under orders to not allow ANYONE without proper ID, DNA, and retinal scan, even Damien Knight. These orders are likely as spells and tech can create pretty convincing disguises.

So that situation might go something like this.
Face: "Let me in."
Guard: "Sorry, restricted access."
Face "Don't you recognize me, son, I'm Damien Knight. Now open this door immediately." Makes a con roll. Gets 7 hits lets say.
Guard gets 2 hits: "Oh, I'm terribly sorry sir, but I'm not allowed to let anyone, even you, without proper identification. I'm terribly sorry for the inconvenience sir." He totally buys the lie but it doesn't mean he's a mental slave, he just acts on the lie as if it were true.

I've seen too many people act like a successful con roll makes everyone do what they say. It just makes them believe you. So the real trick is to know when a lie will be enough and when you'll need more to back it up. Maybe more social skills will work, maybe you'll need to forge an ID badge.
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