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post Apr 27 2010, 02:21 AM
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Once again, please try to stay on topic. Also, please review the ToS and post appropriately. Thanks!

CGL Speculation #1
CGL Speculation #2
CGL Speculation #3
CGL Specularion #4
CGL Speculation #5
CGL Speculation #6
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nylanfs
post Apr 27 2010, 02:45 AM
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I speculate that Tiger's belly ring will be a polished Hemite tomorrow.
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Crusader3025
post Apr 27 2010, 03:28 AM
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Mmmmm Tiger's belly ring. One the highlights of last year's GenCon for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 27 2010, 04:03 AM
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Highlight of this running thread for me!
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The Dragon Girl
post Apr 27 2010, 05:50 AM
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..Tell me more about this belly ring
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Cthulhudreams
post Apr 27 2010, 07:06 AM
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I don't see commenting on the product roadmap as particularly bad or anything - It's a routine part of most technology industries - including comenting on the non-public version of the same roadmaps.

I was actually very surprised in the CGL #6 thread when someone said that commenting on the non-public roadmap was bad, I think of it as good, as it informs customers/re-sellers (i.e. DMs) about what is going to happen next for their game.
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Grinder
post Apr 27 2010, 07:08 AM
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QUOTE (nylanfs @ Apr 27 2010, 04:45 AM) *
I speculate that Tiger's belly ring will be a polished Hemite tomorrow.


First post in this thread and it has to be off-topic? Not cool.
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Cain
post Apr 27 2010, 07:19 AM
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I'll repost what I said in the other thread:

" Here's the point that Doc keeps missing.

We at Dumpshock have a huge influence on the way Shadowrun goes. Most (all?) of the 4.0-4.5 changes were things we bitched about here on Dumpshock. I know that some of my personal battles with Synner and some of the other CGL employees led directly to new errata being released. I also know that Dumpshock claims over 11,000 members. Assuming that less than half of them still posts, knows about the situation, and agrees to boycott CGL, that's still 5,000 books that didn't get bought. Even with a large print run, that's a huge number of books to have sitting in a warehouse."

Dumpshock may not be the majority of Shadowrun fans, bubt it is a significant percentage of them. Any company that has Shadowrun and ignores Dumpshock does so at their peril.
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Grinder
post Apr 27 2010, 07:27 AM
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That assumes that hardcore SR fans like active posters at dumpshock don't already have bought every SR4 book. I mean, how many of us actually pre-order? It's not like a boycott by 5,000 people means that the same number of every sourcebook is sold less.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 27 2010, 08:05 AM
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QUOTE (Grinder @ Apr 27 2010, 03:27 AM) *
That assumes that hardcore SR fans like active posters at dumpshock don't already have bought every SR4 book. I mean, how many of us actually pre-order? It's not like a boycott by 5,000 people means that the same number of every sourcebook is sold less.



Well I collect rpgs, but yes. I tend to buy alot of the books. In the few weeks that I've gotten back into Shadowrun I've bought about 8 of the 12 published books for SR4, and those I don't have in hard copy I got cheaper on PDF ((That bundle pack is an awesome deal)).

I have actually bought PDF's of the hardcopy books I liked to have on my Ipad. So I've double bought many of the books. (( Hard and PDF copies)) of those I don't have hard copy yet, I plan on buying as the pay checks come along.

So while the thought of "Not everyone sitting at the table buys every book" is quite right.

There are also people like myself, that buy not only one copy but two copies if not more. I'm not foolish enough to think it evens out. For 5 people around the table. 2 people might be the book buyers, with the others having the core book and a book or two else (( usually their favrite 'thing' books. Arsenel. Augmentation. Unwired. Street magic. which ever they like to play most)) So even with me buying two or three copies... that's not 5 copies of each book out there.

Still discounting your consumers, no matter how small the number is a bad idea. if 5,000 buyers stopped buying books. They would very very much feel it.
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Cthulhudreams
post Apr 27 2010, 08:14 AM
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To be honest, none of this matters - 5000 buyers either way isn't going to effect what Topps does with the license. Topps is unlikely to give the license to someone who has (as tiger eyes clearly stated) attempted (or actually as has been stated by some of the whistleblowers) defrauded them of royalties.

Seriously, LMR is not going to get the license again - it's just not plausible if any of the fraud claims check out that Topps will continue to partner with LMR/Catalyst to exploit the SR property. Topps only gets value where it gets the loyalty checks, and if LMR have defrauded them, or attempted to defraud them of said loyalties, as long as the fraudsters are in place (Coleman and those that have attempted to keep him in that position), the license will not be renewed.

Without that LMR will be wound up.
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Cain
post Apr 27 2010, 08:23 AM
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QUOTE (Grinder @ Apr 27 2010, 12:27 AM) *
That assumes that hardcore SR fans like active posters at dumpshock don't already have bought every SR4 book. I mean, how many of us actually pre-order? It's not like a boycott by 5,000 people means that the same number of every sourcebook is sold less.

I haven't bought a Shadowrun book in months, although initially it was for a different reason. There's other ways of getting the material, such as borrowing a friend's copy, or just doing without.
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Bull
post Apr 27 2010, 08:28 AM
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Well, there's 11,000 registered members. But that's a deceiving number. There's a LOT of spam accounts, bot accounts, etc mixed in there.

This is also a membership roster that's 8 years old. There are probably quite a few accounts that haven't even logged in to DS in the last few years.

Honestly, at a very loose guess I'd say there are less than 1000 members that have logged into DS in the last year (Not counting spam bots). THere are only a couple hundred accounts that have any real activity to them.

Might be an interesting exercise to have Redjack work up an activity report and see what our active userbase looks like. Of course, considering the amount on crap the Mods are dealing with right now behind the scenes with all the bickering among a small handful of users and the absolute spamming of the Report feature that seems to be in vogue these days, I imagine they have precious little time to do much of anything here on DS.

And, to bring it back on topic to Cain's estimate... I think that Dumpshock might be able to influence about 1/10 the sales you figured. Maybe 500. And that's assuming everyone agreed with the boycott.

Bull
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Korwin
post Apr 27 2010, 08:49 AM
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All hail the Cult of Frank:

QUOTE ("FrankTrollman")
Here's the short version of the Shadowrun Situation:

Loren L. Coleman (the Battletech author, not the Cryptozoologist), is the majority shareholder of InMediaRes LLC. There are approximately 16 minority shareholders, a tally which is in no small part "approximate" because there have been at least two pieces of shadiness involving Mr. Coleman unilaterally transferring ownership of other people's stock. Over the last three years, Mr. Coleman has been making more and more unauthorized draws on the corporate accounts. While doing so, he has had a mansion built for himself in a gated community in Snohomish, Washington. This construction project was paid for not only out of his own pocket, but also by contractors that were billed directly to the corporation as freelancers.

During this period, IMR has been subcontracting for books to be translated and published in German, French, and Japanese with Pegasus, Black Book Editions, and ArcLight respectively. These companies have turned royalties in to Mr. Coleman and he has voluntarily declined to ship the royalties up the chain to Topps. This is a continuation of a practice engaged in by FASA where the foreign royalties would simply be lost and not distributed. However, in this case it is directly demonstrable that malicious intent was held - in that Mr. Coleman directed his book keeper to leave foreign royalties unreported on the grounds that Topps "didn't care about them anyway."

Also during this period, the reported income from conventions and direct sales has mysteriously fallen from nearly forty thousand dollars a year to less than six. This comes from Coleman selling things for cash and then simply pocketing the money rather than reporting it as corporate income. This means directly that royalties were not paid on those materials either.

Even after the real estate collapse, Mr. Coleman's house was appraised at a value of approximately $650,000. Over the last few years, he has consistently told creditors and investors that finances were much tighter than such extravagant expenses would indicate. Many creditors were not paid at all. And by "creditors" I don't just mean printers and advertisers and other "corporate" creditors, or even simply financial creditors such as the investors and poor suckers who made personal loans to IMR or Coleman directly - I include the actual creative staff. There are seriously Battletech writers whose checks are three years late, and given current financial problems may never be paid at all. Coleman's draws on company funds were so fast and heavy that some checks he wrote to writing and artistic staff actually bounced. My own personal checks were months late, and short by about a hundred dollars. And that was years ago (my last check actually arrived in 2008, though of course I stopped being a Freelancer there in September of 2007).

As this situation has boiled to a head, smaller and more agile companies have already divested themselves of connections with IMR and Mr. Coleman. Posthuman Studios (Eclipse Phase), and WildFire (CthulhuTech) have both cut themselves loose. WildFire has been quite public with the terms they have agreed to on splitting from Mr. Coleman, and he has broken those agreements twice. Three times if you include the fact that he didn't pay them their royalties in the first place. The first splitting agreement was that IMR couldn't make any new books, but they would sell off the remaining stock that said "Catalyst" on it and use some of the money to pay the owed royalties to WildFire. Coleman kept selling the books, but didn't pay the royalties. Then they made a new agreement where IMR had to give WildFire their remaining Cthulhutech stocks and that would count towards the royalties debts. However, when they opened those boxes, the books were still tens of thousands of dollars short of what was still owed. WildFire has now pressed for Chapter 7 against IMR.

Other creditors may yet follow suit. Topps is pressing for an audit of IMR and Mr. Coleman's funds. The things they will find in that are... less than hopeful. IMR's Payables are currently much larger than their Receivables. Years of not paying corporate debts while the primary shareholder milks the company dry has left them in arrears to everyone they've had any contact with. And the books are literally unauditable. So much stuff has been rewritten or simply never written down at all that making sense of it would be a Herculean task of its own. There is no sales data - it's seriously just a list of money in and money out.

Meanwhile, the company has been hemorrhaging employees left and right. Some of them have been straight up asked to falsify financial documents or quit, while others have simply seen the writing on the wall and fled like rats on a sinking ship. Most hilariously, a good amount of corporate property has actually gone with the employees, since the employees often went and got equipment on their own to be "reimbursed" later on - reimbursements that likely as not never came. Most hilariously, the shipping computer left with the employee who used it.

Mr. Coleman has been paying debts only when forced, and even then those debts have been paid late and often short. The only reason that any freelancers got paid in the recent days was because they were withholding copyright on books that they had been owed monies on for some time and which were in turn scheduled to sell for more in the remaining weeks than their own contracts. Nevertheless, a lot of high quality talent, and even medium quality talent, has stated that come hell or high water, they will never work with IMR again.

So in all of this, you may ask three simple questions: Who are the bad guys in all of this? Does Shadowrun have a future? And of course: What about all those books we were promised?

The Bad Guys: It's tempting to get very angry at the people who rant on message boards defending the indefensible. Complete assholes like Bull and Doctor Funkenstein are certainly not helping anything, and their allegiances and blatant lack of ethics will doubtless be remembered long after this saga is over. But don't fool yourself: their antics aren't unexpected or particularly relevant. You can get 20% of the people to approve of whoever happens to be in charge no matter what they do. The bad guys are still Loren L Coleman, Randall Bills, and Jason Hardy.

Loren Coleman of course is the man who proximally stole all the money. He is the center of the web of lies. It is he who demanded and received total control of the piggy bank and then sucked it dry while no one was looking. He's also trying to steal the company from the other investors. His legal defense is seriously that it only counts as embezzlement if he isn't the only owner, and that despite the fact that he took money from all his investors in exchange for partial ownership, and he has been sending them tax forms every year, that 3 to 4 years later he still hasn't gotten around to filing the forms properly to indicate that they actually own anything. So his defense against the charge of embezzlement is... interstate mail fraud. I can't even make this stuff up.

Randall Bills is Loren's best friend. And he is one of Loren's closest allies. It was he who told the book keeper that if she didn't want to follow Loren's instructions to help defraud investors and license owners and the IRS that she could quit. And he said that he was "The Messiah of Battletech" without whose blessing the franchise would collapse. He also said that he would drive the company into the ground rather than jeopardize his friendship with Loren. And he has lied to people and done everything in his power to resist efforts to remove Loren from power or the cookie jar of finances. Currently, he has his wife doing the shipping to cover for the employees who left in disgust or were forced out for lack of loyalty.

Jason Hardy is the current Developer of Shadowrun. He was appointed for loyalty to Randall Bills rather than knowledge of Shadowrun or writing ability. He has continued that tradition by pushing writers out of the pool for showing insufficient loyalty to the company, regardless of knowledge of the subject, writing ability, or loyalty to the Shadowrun line. When the scandal broke, he locked arms with Randall and told him that people were spreading lies about him. I am not sure if he actually believes this to all be some sort of wacky misunderstanding, but in a sense it doesn't matter. What he is doing is pushing low quality products as part of a deliberate and very petty attempt to push through a published versions of books without the work done by people who refused to work with Loren. Heck, at this point there are a number of people who straight up will not work with Jason Hardy. The Trees thing even more than the whole "maliciously cutting people who aren't supporting thieves from the loop" thing.

So... what does that mean for Shadowrun? It means that Topps is going to award the license to someone else, and everyone who ranted about the Cult of Frank or whatever is going to get to like the taste of crow. Unfortunately, new books have a 90 day development cycle even when people aren't struggling to find their way or picking themselves through a mine field of traitors or whatever. So it's very possible that the new company is going to miss GenCon, and not get a new product out until Christmas. That will be a shame. But it's still avoidable if Topps picks a successor early enough.

What about the books that were coming out any moment now? Don't hold your breath. First of all, a bunch of the books in the pipeline are, as currently set up, very bad. War!, Corp Guide, and Attitude are under current formulation basically wastes of paper. They need rewrites, and even reconcepting. And that just isn't going to happen without a new company coming in and purging all the Coleman loyalists (which they should be doing anyway). Randall Bills has promised a street date for the Limited Edition SR4A book of May 3rd, and those books are physically real items. But of course, he promised several other dates in the past and never delivered. He has his wife doing the shipping, and Troy left with his computer. So... it's anyone's guess how long it would take for books to actually reach anyone in particular. And of course, any books that aren't properly shipped by the time they lose the license are going to be hidden in a drawer and sold on e-bay on the down low to try to pay Loren's court costs.

-Frank


from here
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Bull
post Apr 27 2010, 09:24 AM
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Wow. I don't even know half the behind the scenes details, but I can pick out a handful of just out and out falsehoods there stated as fact.

YOu gotta admire Frank's dedication to his cause here. THe boy spends way, way, waaaayyy too much time writing and rewriting his same flawed argument (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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crizh
post Apr 27 2010, 09:30 AM
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Care to point them out?

It might be handy to get a bit of perspective on this whole thing.
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Fuchs
post Apr 27 2010, 09:39 AM
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Seconded. If there's something wrong in the post, please state what.
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Bull
post Apr 27 2010, 09:43 AM
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QUOTE (crizh @ Apr 27 2010, 04:30 AM) *
Care to point them out?

It might be handy to get a bit of perspective on this whole thing.


There's been 6 previous threads, and plenty of things have been pointed out. And then often ignored.

Frank's not entirely wrong on a lot of points. But he's making a lot of assumptions, and his POV has at least as much Spin as any of CGL's press releases.

It's not worth the hassle to argue this anymore, IMO. We'll know for sure whats happening with the license in a couple weeks. I personally don't think the license is going anywhere.

Bull
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Korwin
post Apr 27 2010, 09:46 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Apr 27 2010, 10:43 AM) *
I personally don't think the license is going anywhere.

Bull



If only a fraction is true (from Franks post), I dont see how the license can be staying where it is...
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dirkformica
post Apr 27 2010, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE (crizh @ Apr 27 2010, 01:30 AM) *
Care to point them out?

It might be handy to get a bit of perspective on this whole thing.


Agreed. We've seen a lot of point by point rebuttals in the various threads. I've really enjoyed those and been educated as a result. I'd like to see some here as well.

edit: Another reason I'd like to see this is because this is a new thread. The old threads were often closed because they were long and meandering. To start off a new thread with recapping of facts from multiple sides with their points and rebuttals would be MUCH more beneficial than the useless, misogynistic derailments that started this thread.
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Gormenghast
post Apr 27 2010, 09:57 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Apr 27 2010, 10:24 AM) *
Wow. I don't even know half the behind the scenes details, but I can pick out a handful of just out and out falsehoods there stated as fact.

YOu gotta admire Frank's dedication to his cause here. THe boy spends way, way, waaaayyy too much time writing and rewriting his same flawed argument (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



I, too, would be interested in seeing the specific flaws that you have picked out of the aforementioned post. You don't need to bother listing off all of the potential flaws and ambiguous wording if you're feeling fatigued with the discussion, but I am sure that these 'out and out flaws' that come so readily to mind would be easy enough to point out for the benefit of all of us.
Thanks!

This post has been edited by Gormenghast: Apr 27 2010, 09:58 AM
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Delta
post Apr 27 2010, 09:59 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Apr 27 2010, 10:43 AM) *
Frank's not entirely wrong on a lot of points. But he's making a lot of assumptions, and his POV has at least as much Spin as any of CGL's press releases.


That is my main problem with Frank and his "Cult". I can see it looks like CGL is going down, and judging from what I know, I won't be too sad about it (even if I don't think CGL actually keeping the license doesn't necessarily need to spell doom for the whole line), but what I take issue with is this whole "we're just advocates of the truth, and you're a bunch of evil spin doctors!"-attitude I see with a lot of the most outspoken critics, which is nothing more than hypocrisy in my opinion.
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Fuchs
post Apr 27 2010, 10:16 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Apr 27 2010, 11:43 AM) *
There's been 6 previous threads, and plenty of things have been pointed out. And then often ignored.

Frank's not entirely wrong on a lot of points. But he's making a lot of assumptions, and his POV has at least as much Spin as any of CGL's press releases.

It's not worth the hassle to argue this anymore, IMO. We'll know for sure whats happening with the license in a couple weeks. I personally don't think the license is going anywhere.

Bull


If it's so easy to spot the "out and out falsehoods", as you claimed, please post them.
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Bull
post Apr 27 2010, 10:18 AM
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1) At least half of his assumptions of motive are wrong, especially the ones surrounding Jason Hardy. Most of the rest may be wrong, but I don't interact enough with Randall to judge those properly.

2) QUite a few of his Plurals should be singlulars.

3) A lot of his facts are, as I said, assumptions that he presents as fact. Which makes it a falsehood.

4) I'd be willing to bet that Topps doesn't give a devil rats ass about Shadowrun or Battletech. All they want is paid. If that happens, CGL gets the license back. (And that's how you present something as an assumption rather than a fact. Becuase I don't know for certain. Neitehr does anyone else except for Topps and CGL)

Bull
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Fuchs
post Apr 27 2010, 10:22 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Apr 27 2010, 12:18 PM) *
1) At least half of his assumptions of motive are wrong, especially the ones surrounding Jason Hardy. Most of the rest may be wrong, but I don't interact enough with Randall to judge those properly.

2) QUite a few of his Plurals should be singlulars.

3) A lot of his facts are, as I said, assumptions that he presents as fact. Which makes it a falsehood.

4) I'd be willing to bet that Topps doesn't give a devil rats ass about Shadowrun or Battletech. All they want is paid. If that happens, CGL gets the license back. (And that's how you present something as an assumption rather than a fact. Becuase I don't know for certain. Neitehr does anyone else except for Topps and CGL)

Bull


1. You don't know what Jason's motives are. Only Jason knows that. One can just try to deduce his motives from his actions, like a judge does.

2. Which ones?

3. Which ones?

4. That depends on whether or not the accusations that Coleman (and with him, CGL) did shorten Topps on license payments due them are true.

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Bull
post Apr 27 2010, 10:33 AM
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Like I said, go read past threads. Jasons pointed stuff out, I've pointed stuff out, plenty of others have. Hell, even some of Tiger Eyes and AH's posts temper some of Frank's statements.

Like I said, I don;t care to argue this. It's not worthwhile. I've wasted too much time on this and you already.

In 3 weeks, it's settled. One way or another. And these boards will become even more unbearable to try and follow, because no matter which side "Wins", we all lose, and I'm sure tehre will be a lot of bitching and moaning regardless.

Bull
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Arclight
post Apr 27 2010, 10:55 AM
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QUOTE (Bull)
I'd be willing to bet that Topps doesn't give a devil rats ass about Shadowrun or Battletech. All they want is paid. If that happens, CGL gets the license back. (And that's how you present something as an assumption rather than a fact. Becuase I don't know for certain. Neitehr does anyone else except for Topps and CGL)

[...]

In 3 weeks, it's settled. One way or another. And these boards will become even more unbearable to try and follow, because no matter which side "Wins", we all lose, and I'm sure tehre will be a lot of bitching and moaning regardless.


But, if there is another company bidding on the license, wouldn't Topps get more money from them?

Speculation again:

- CGL is in financial trouble and maybe paid Topps less royalties than they were obliged to, with intent.
- The other bidder promises the same amount of royalties but can actually pay those now without inflicting harm on it's daily operations (like firing employees).
- All the material published or paid for will belong to the new license holder anyway.
- The other bidder might have enough cash sitting around to buy "floating" material like PACKS. Heck, as some freelancer won't do business with CGL again, a new company is the only way to get these floating material published.

When the good performance of CGL was achieved by a creative pool not with this company anymore, in spite of bad business habits, why stay with this company without this creative pool but still daily operations problems?
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Kid Chameleon
post Apr 27 2010, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE (Arclight @ Apr 27 2010, 04:55 AM) *
When the good performance of CGL was achieved by a creative pool not with this company anymore, in spite of bad business habits, why stay with this company without this creative pool but still daily operations problems?


That's a pretty strong leap to say the loss of a half dozen free lancers represents the basis for all the good work done on the creative side.
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Cardul
post Apr 27 2010, 11:04 AM
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QUOTE (Arclight @ Apr 27 2010, 05:55 AM) *
But, given there is another company bidding on the license, wouldn't Topps get more money from them?


Source for the bolded part, please.

This is the first I have heard of another company bidding. Can you tell us who, since you have that
information(else you would not have stated it as "given")? Who is running this other company?

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Arclight
post Apr 27 2010, 11:09 AM
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Wording problem, which has been corrected. Sorry dudes.
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Cthulhudreams
post Apr 27 2010, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Apr 27 2010, 08:33 PM) *
Like I said, go read past threads. Jasons pointed stuff out, I've pointed stuff out, plenty of others have. Hell, even some of Tiger Eyes and AH's posts temper some of Frank's statements.


Why do you think that Topps will continue a relationship with a company that has, as Tiger eyes claims, attempted to defraud them?
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Cardul
post Apr 27 2010, 11:51 AM
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QUOTE (Arclight @ Apr 27 2010, 06:09 AM) *
Wording problem, which has been corrected. Sorry dudes.



In other words: You let out info you are not supposed to, people commented on
it, and you edited to cover your statement in hopes that people would not keep
pressing for the info. Well, I, for one, am not falling for one of the oldest tricks
in the political/corporate double speak book.
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Arclight
post Apr 27 2010, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE (Cardul @ Apr 27 2010, 12:51 PM) *
In other words: You let out info you are not supposed to, people commented on
it, and you edited to cover your statement in hopes that people would not keep
pressing for the info. Well, I, for one, am not falling for one of the oldest tricks
in the political/corporate double speak book.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It was a simple wording mistake. Given *g* that English is my second language, I think thats okay.

All I know about all this, I read on Dumpshock, Gaming Den, rpg.net and the Pegasus forum.

Okay?
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Korwin
post Apr 27 2010, 12:14 PM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Apr 27 2010, 11:18 AM) *
1) At least half of his assumptions of motive are wrong, especially the ones surrounding Jason Hardy. Most of the rest may be wrong, but I don't interact enough with Randall to judge those properly.

Who cares about the motives? (of criminals, since that is apparently correct you didnt say that that claim is wrong...)

QUOTE
2) QUite a few of his Plurals should be singlulars.

Meaning?

QUOTE
3) A lot of his facts are, as I said, assumptions that he presents as fact. Which makes it a falsehood.

Is that an assumption from you? If not, why dont you take this opportunity to discredit Frank?

QUOTE
4) I'd be willing to bet that Topps doesn't give a devil rats ass about Shadowrun or Battletech. All they want is paid. If that happens, CGL gets the license back. (And that's how you present something as an assumption rather than a fact. Becuase I don't know for certain. Neitehr does anyone else except for Topps and CGL)

Bull


Yeah they want to be paid. Do they get paid? Frank claims not. Do you claim otherwise?

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Delta
post Apr 27 2010, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE (Arclight @ Apr 27 2010, 01:07 PM) *
It was a simple wording mistake. Given *g* that English is my second language, I think thats okay.


Oh, yes, I'd play that card, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Don't even try to deny it, this forum is on to you and your secret insider business knowledge!
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Athenor
post Apr 27 2010, 12:34 PM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 27 2010, 05:38 AM) *
Why do you think that Topps will continue a relationship with a company that has, as Tiger eyes claims, attempted to defraud them?


If I may?

Didn't Tiger Eyes leave because she was asked to defraud Topps, but refused?

Doesn't that imply, perhaps, that Topps never saw the defrauding get to their offices? IE, her leaving and this whole shitstorm has had the positive effect of a true, accurate proposal for keeping the license get put forward?
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Athenor
post Apr 27 2010, 12:34 PM
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This forum needs a 30 second "double-post" protection in the worst way.
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Arclight
post Apr 27 2010, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE (Delta @ Apr 27 2010, 01:17 PM) *
Oh, yes, I'd play that card, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Don't even try to deny it, this forum is on to you and your secret insider business knowledge!


If there's ever a speculation thread on German Army Aviation, I could offer some insider knowledge. I wouldn't post it, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)
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JM Hardy
post Apr 27 2010, 12:59 PM
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People asked for flaws in Frank's argument, so here you go. I'm reluctant to engage in this, but there are some rather defamatory things said about me, and I'd like to clear a few of them up. That's the stuff I'm going to concentrate on, but keep in mind that Frank slants most other arguments negative. Interpretations could go back and forth, but the best way we'll know if Frank's version works is what happens with the license. As we'll see when it comes to the stuff about me, his interpretation of what he believes to be "facts" is often quite slanted.

1. "[Jason Hardy] was appointed for loyalty to Randall Bills rather than knowledge of Shadowrun or writing ability." As I stated in the previous thread, I wrote over 200,000 words for Shadowrun and edited portions of 9 books before I was hired. I've also done writing work for over half a dozen companies, most of whom hire me repeatedly. My loyalty to Randall was not covered in the interview for the job--things like my plans to communicate with people and plans to get product moving were.

2. "He has continued that tradition by pushing writers out of the pool for showing insufficient loyalty to the company." I haven't pushed a single writer out of the pool. I had one writer removed from the forums, on the philosophy that it likely is not a good idea to share confidential information with someone working at cross purposes, but I stated that I was still willing to work with that author. The change from the freelancer forums to a Google group has also not definitively pushed anyone out--I can remain in contact with writers who have not yet joined the group and gauge their interest in writing future product. However, I should point out that I believe that not working with writers who broke NDAs is a valid thing to do, should I make that decision.

3. "regardless of knowledge of the subject, writing ability, or loyalty to the Shadowrun line." Incorrect. All writers I work with are writers who I have seen samples for. They have varying levels of knowledge, but most have a good background in the setting. Their loyalty to the SR line is important--that's why most of them have signed up to do writing in the first place.

4. "What he is doing is pushing low quality products as part of a deliberate and very petty attempt to push through a published versions of books without the work done by people who refused to work with Loren." Incorrect. What I am doing is trying to get products finished. I'm running drafts by other freelancers and proofers to make sure they are of good quality. I don't believe I'm being petty--I believe I'm working to get books out, which is what the line requires.

5. "Heck, at this point there are a number of people who straight up will not work with Jason Hardy." That may be. But what is that number? He doesn't say. By my count, I've got around 20 or so freelancers--most of them with previous SR experience--still willing to work with me, along with several new freelancers who have expressed an interest.

6. "So... what does that mean for Shadowrun? It means that Topps is going to award the license to someone else, and everyone who ranted about the Cult of Frank or whatever is going to get to like the taste of crow." We'll see on that one, but from what I have heard this is definitely slanted toward Frank's POV and not real conversations with Topps.

7. "War!, Corp Guide, and Attitude are under current formulation basically wastes of paper. They need rewrites, and even reconcepting." Do I need to point out that this is just opinion? And that Corp Guide was nearly done before these problems hit, and the vast majority of the text that was going to be included from the beginning is still being included?

8. "[Randall] promised several other dates [for when the LE would street] in the past and never delivered." Please show evidence of another street date for the LE. There wasn't one. This was the first specific date announced

9. "So... it's anyone's guess how long it would take for [LEs] to actually reach anyone in particular." People have already seen their order statuses change. Perhaps they could also post info when they receive their copies.

Again, I left most of the Loren stuff alone because I don't know enough to comment one way or the other. But based on the horrible assumptions Frank makes about my motives, I have trouble trusting the assumptions he makes about others.

Jason H.

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TW
post Apr 27 2010, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE (Kid Chameleon @ Apr 27 2010, 07:00 AM) *
That's a pretty strong leap to say the loss of a half dozen free lancers represents the basis for all the good work done on the creative side.

IMO, said loss still represents a rather large chunk of the supporting column of that basis.
Take a look through the credits pages of the books released by Catalyst and do the math.
The number of freelancers regularly contributing to the Shadowrun books in a significant amount was / is very small
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Kid Chameleon
post Apr 27 2010, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE (TW @ Apr 27 2010, 06:59 AM) *
IMO, said loss still represents a rather large chunk of the supporting column of that basis.
Take a look through the credits pages of the books released by Catalyst and do the math.
The number of freelancers regularly contributing to the Shadowrun books in a significant amount was / is very small


But that's ignoring all the talented people working on the other lines.
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TW
post Apr 27 2010, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (Kid Chameleon @ Apr 27 2010, 09:15 AM) *
But that's ignoring all the talented people working on the other lines.

I'm not ignoring them, but regardless of how familiar these people may be with the Shadowrun universe and the specific writing style, there will be a learning curve. The loss of the so-called 'core freelancers' (like Jason Levine, Peter Taylor, Bobby Derie and Jennifer Harding) in terms of writing resources, kowledge, criticism and advice works against that learning curve.
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Kid Chameleon
post Apr 27 2010, 01:32 PM
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QUOTE (TW @ Apr 27 2010, 07:23 AM) *
I'm not ignoring them, but regardless of how familiar these people may be with the Shadowrun universe and the specific writing style, there will be a learning curve. The loss of the so-called 'core freelancers' (like Jason Levine, Peter Taylor, Bobby Derie and Jennifer Harding) in terms of writing resources, kowledge, criticism and advice works against that learning curve.


But that response wasn't about SR in particular, but about CGL as a whole (it responded to Bull talking about both SR and BT).
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Demonseed Elite
post Apr 27 2010, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 27 2010, 02:06 AM) *
I don't see commenting on the product roadmap as particularly bad or anything - It's a routine part of most technology industries - including comenting on the non-public version of the same roadmaps.

I was actually very surprised in the CGL #6 thread when someone said that commenting on the non-public roadmap was bad, I think of it as good, as it informs customers/re-sellers (i.e. DMs) about what is going to happen next for their game.


That person was probably me. And yes, I do think it's bad if it's not the publisher itself commenting on the product roadmap. Basically, what Frank is doing is delivering a judgment on books that have not been published yet. I strongly encourage reviews of books that have been released, I've even listened carefully to critical reviews of things I have written, but as a writer, I would tend to appreciate that those reviews come out after I finished with the book. Criticisms during production of the book are called editing and there are editors for that.

And note that none of what Frank spoke about impacts me directly. I have no hand in any of the books on the product roadmap. But as a writer, I do have a strong feeling about what Frank did.
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Cthulhudreams
post Apr 27 2010, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 27 2010, 11:35 PM) *
That person was probably me. And yes, I do think it's bad if it's not the publisher itself commenting on the product roadmap. Basically, what Frank is doing is delivering a judgment on books that have not been published yet. I strongly encourage reviews of books that have been released, I've even listened carefully to critical reviews of things I have written, but as a writer, I would tend to appreciate that those reviews come out after I finished with the book. Criticisms during production of the book are called editing and there are editors for that.

And note that none of what Frank spoke about impacts me directly. I have no hand in any of the books on the product roadmap. But as a writer, I do have a strong feeling about what Frank did.


Yeah, see that's just weird to me - people who are not intel, microsoft, AMD or Apple make calls about their product roadmap all the time, including praise and harsh critique. What seperates a RPG writer from an Intel chip designer, an MS software engineer or an Apple product designer?
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Ancient History
post Apr 27 2010, 01:42 PM
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Well, hell. One of us might as well do it.

Note: there's an upper limit on quote boxes, so Frank's quotes are gonna be in bold, m'kay?

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Here's the short version of the Shadowrun Situation:

Loren L. Coleman (the Battletech author, not the Cryptozoologist), is the majority shareholder of InMediaRes LLC.

As far as I know, this is true. The numbers I've heard are between 50-62%.

There are approximately 16 minority shareholders, a tally which is in no small part "approximate" because there have been at least two pieces of shadiness involving Mr. Coleman unilaterally transferring ownership of other people's stock.
As far as I am aware, there were sixteen shareholders total. There have been some weird allegations about whether or not the stock was sold correctly (i.e. if there was any actual transfer of ownership), and the question of "who owns what percentage" is currently being argued. Call it speculation until the dust settles.

Over the last three years, Mr. Coleman has been making more and more unauthorized draws on the corporate accounts.
Not entirely true; to the best of my knowledge the Colemans were the only one with access to the accounts and the books for a long period. So he essentially authorized himself. The part about the draws is totally true, though.

While doing so, he has had a mansion built for himself in a gated community in Snohomish, Washington. This construction project was paid for not only out of his own pocket, but also by contractors that were billed directly to the corporation as freelancers.
The Colemans did build a house in a gated community during this period (their old home is used as the Catalyst office); the part about the contractors is something I've heard as well, but I don't have details - so call it speculation.

During this period, IMR has been subcontracting for books to be translated and published in German, French, and Japanese with Pegasus, Black Book Editions, and ArcLight respectively.
True.

These companies have turned royalties in to Mr. Coleman and he has voluntarily declined to ship the royalties up the chain to Topps.
If you believe Jennifer Harding's statements about why she left, this is also true. Of course, it wasn't just the foreign companies not getting paid their royalties.

This is a continuation of a practice engaged in by FASA where the foreign royalties would simply be lost and not distributed. However, in this case it is directly demonstrable that malicious intent was held - in that Mr. Coleman directed his book keeper to leave foreign royalties unreported on the grounds that Topps "didn't care about them anyway."
I had heard about FASA doing that kind of thing, but it was before my time. The other part, Jen Harding attests, is true.

Also during this period, the reported income from conventions and direct sales has mysteriously fallen from nearly forty thousand dollars a year to less than six. This comes from Coleman selling things for cash and then simply pocketing the money rather than reporting it as corporate income. This means directly that royalties were not paid on those materials either.
Speculation. This is something I heard about, but there's literally no way to tell if it's true without seeing the books.

Even after the real estate collapse, Mr. Coleman's house was appraised at a value of approximately $650,000.
True.

Over the last few years, he has consistently told creditors and investors that finances were much tighter than such extravagant expenses would indicate. Many creditors were not paid at all. And by "creditors" I don't just mean printers and advertisers and other "corporate" creditors, or even simply financial creditors such as the investors and poor suckers who made personal loans to IMR or Coleman directly - I include the actual creative staff. There are seriously Battletech writers whose checks are three years late, and given current financial problems may never be paid at all. Coleman's draws on company funds were so fast and heavy that some checks he wrote to writing and artistic staff actually bounced. My own personal checks were months late, and short by about a hundred dollars. And that was years ago (my last check actually arrived in 2008, though of course I stopped being a Freelancer there in September of 2007).
I can't speak for investors, but yes, Catalyst has long played the cash-dry angle with freelancers and was habitually late in payment. With the recent spate of checks, I'm not sure where everyone stands now, but there were freelancers that were not paid for products printed years ago at the time I left. Yes, some of the checks that Catalyst has written in the past have bounced. Whether this was all due to Loren and his increasing cash draws, I couldn't tell you without looking at the book.

As this situation has boiled to a head, smaller and more agile companies have already divested themselves of connections with IMR and Mr. Coleman. Posthuman Studios (Eclipse Phase), and WildFire (CthulhuTech) have both cut themselves loose.
True.

WildFire has been quite public with the terms they have agreed to on splitting from Mr. Coleman, and he has broken those agreements twice. Three times if you include the fact that he didn't pay them their royalties in the first place. The first splitting agreement was that IMR couldn't make any new books, but they would sell off the remaining stock that said "Catalyst" on it and use some of the money to pay the owed royalties to WildFire. Coleman kept selling the books, but didn't pay the royalties. Then they made a new agreement where IMR had to give WildFire their remaining Cthulhutech stocks and that would count towards the royalties debts.
As linked, IMR was transferring ownership of the stock as partial payment of its debts.

However, when they opened those boxes, the books were still tens of thousands of dollars short of what was still owed.
WildFire was owed royalties, we know this much. We don't have the details of the agreement with IMR, but we know transfer of ownership of the CthulhuTech books to cover part of the debt was part of it, and as below...

WildFire has now pressed for Chapter 7 against IMR.
True. InMediaRes maintains that these are additional measures WildFire is taking to get the rest of the money it is owed.

Other creditors may yet follow suit.
Other creditors can be added to the legal action linked above, so that's entirely possible.


Topps is pressing for an audit of IMR and Mr. Coleman's funds.
Speculation. I have heard Topps is doing an audit of IMR's books, but again, this is stuff we have no way of knowing.

The things they will find in that are... less than hopeful. IMR's Payables are currently much larger than their Receivables. Years of not paying corporate debts while the primary shareholder milks the company dry has left them in arrears to everyone they've had any contact with.
Speculation. This is pretty much the situation as I understand it, though the recent spate of checks has at least squared them (or gone some way to squaring them) with many freelancers.

And the books are literally unauditable. So much stuff has been rewritten or simply never written down at all that making sense of it would be a Herculean task of its own. There is no sales data - it's seriously just a list of money in and money out.
Speculation. This is a rumor I keep hearing - literally, no track was kept of the sales data, only deposits and draws. Needless to say, we don't have access to the books, inauditable or not, so call this speculation.

Meanwhile, the company has been hemorrhaging employees left and right.
Adam Jury, David Stansel-Garner, Troy Garner, Jennifer Harding, Stephen McQuillian - that's more than half the staff I know of, so I'd call that true.

Some of them have been straight up asked to falsify financial documents or quit, while others have simply seen the writing on the wall and fled like rats on a sinking ship.
Jennifer Harding again, for the first part.

Most hilariously, a good amount of corporate property has actually gone with the employees, since the employees often went and got equipment on their own to be "reimbursed" later on - reimbursements that likely as not never came. Most hilariously, the shipping computer left with the employee who used it.
True. Specifically, Troy Garner took the shipping computer with him because it is his own property.

Mr. Coleman has been paying debts only when forced, and even then those debts have been paid late and often short. The only reason that any freelancers got paid in the recent days was because they were withholding copyright on books that they had been owed monies on for some time and which were in turn scheduled to sell for more in the remaining weeks than their own contracts.
True. Squeeky wheel gets the grease and all that. Adam explains it best.

Nevertheless, a lot of high quality talent, and even medium quality talent, has stated that come hell or high water, they will never work with IMR again.
Certainly Jennifer Harding, Jay Levine, myself, and several other ex-freelancers are of that opinion.


So in all of this, you may ask three simple questions: Who are the bad guys in all of this? Does Shadowrun have a future? And of course: What about all those books we were promised?

The Bad Guys: It's tempting to get very angry at the people who rant on message boards defending the indefensible. Complete assholes like Bull and Doctor Funkenstein are certainly not helping anything, and their allegiances and blatant lack of ethics will doubtless be remembered long after this saga is over. But don't fool yourself: their antics aren't unexpected or particularly relevant. You can get 20% of the people to approve of whoever happens to be in charge no matter what they do.

Frank has been miffed at the attitude of Bull and Doc Funk toward this whole situation. Granted, Bull and Frank have never got along, but I think he's genuinely perplexed as to Doc Funk's attitude toward the whole matter.

The bad guys are still Loren L Coleman, Randall Bills, and Jason Hardy.

Loren Coleman of course is the man who proximally stole all the money. He is the center of the web of lies. It is he who demanded and received total control of the piggy bank and then sucked it dry while no one was looking.

This is Frank's principle assertion. Certainly, the graphs linked above make the case that he was making significant draws, and we know he was late in getting payments out to freelancers, WildFire LLC, and other creditors as listed in the legal case.

He's also trying to steal the company from the other investors. His legal defense is seriously that it only counts as embezzlement if he isn't the only owner, and that despite the fact that he took money from all his investors in exchange for partial ownership, and he has been sending them tax forms every year, that 3 to 4 years later he still hasn't gotten around to filing the forms properly to indicate that they actually own anything. So his defense against the charge of embezzlement is... interstate mail fraud. I can't even make this stuff up.
Speculation. This corresponds with what I've heard, but there hasn't been an independent confirmation just yet.

Randall Bills is Loren's best friend. And he is one of Loren's closest allies.
True, if Bill's letter to the freelancers is anything to go by.

It was he who told the book keeper that if she didn't want to follow Loren's instructions to help defraud investors and license owners and the IRS that she could quit.
True, according to Jennifer Harding's post linked above.

And he said that he was "The Messiah of Battletech" without whose blessing the franchise would collapse. He also said that he would drive the company into the ground rather than jeopardize his friendship with Loren.
Speculation. Though I hear this is pretty much exactly what he said during the owner's meeting, without the actual minutes I can't confirm it.

And he has lied to people and done everything in his power to resist efforts to remove Loren from power or the cookie jar of finances.
The lies are speculation, the resistance to remove from power Loren is not (see his letter above), the cookie jar is speculation - Randall asserts in his letter that changes were made for "stronger financial oversight" and that it is planned for the Colemans to pay back the money - at the time of the letter, that last bit was not finalized.

Currently, he has his wife doing the shipping to cover for the employees who left in disgust or were forced out for lack of loyalty.
True. As far as I know, one of the owners, Tara Bills, is doing Troy Garner's old job.

Jason Hardy is the current Developer of Shadowrun.
True.

He was appointed for loyalty to Randall Bills rather than knowledge of Shadowrun or writing ability.
Speculation.

He has continued that tradition by pushing writers out of the pool for showing insufficient loyalty to the company, regardless of knowledge of the subject, writing ability, or loyalty to the Shadowrun line.
Speculation. Locking me out of the freelancer forums was the incentive for me jumping ship; and reportedly he did the same to a few others. Certainly the heightened paranoia around security and leaking drafts that led to the abandonment of the freelancer forums hasn't helped much, but I am unaware of Jason intentionally trying to push freelancers out.

When the scandal broke, he locked arms with Randall and told him that people were spreading lies about him.
Speculation. I heard that Jason when initially informed did go to Randall and take action against the individual that had informed him of Loren's "co-mingling of funds", but there's no way to confirm it independently.

I am not sure if he actually believes this to all be some sort of wacky misunderstanding, but in a sense it doesn't matter. What he is doing is pushing low quality products as part of a deliberate and very petty attempt to push through a published versions of books without the work done by people who refused to work with Loren.
Speculation, at least as far as the low-quality. I have my own opinion on the matter, but I'm more biased than Frank in that regard. Since contracts have been terminated, Jason has gotten other freelancers to re-write the missing sections in an effort to get the books to print. As Jason says, he's simply working to get books in print.

Heck, at this point there are a number of people who straight up will not work with Jason Hardy.
True. Myself, at least.

The Trees thing even more than the whole "maliciously cutting people who aren't supporting thieves from the loop" thing.
If you don't get the reference, it's to something in an upcoming sourcebook that should not have gotten out. Jason even asked me straight-up if I'd been breaking my NDA with anyone (short summary: "What NDA? No, I don't have an NDA on file. No, I haven't been sharing that kind of stuff on the forums.") This was fair, as I vehemently hate the Trees and argued against them very strongly before I left.

So... what does that mean for Shadowrun? It means that Topps is going to award the license to someone else, and everyone who ranted about the Cult of Frank or whatever is going to get to like the taste of crow. Unfortunately, new books have a 90 day development cycle even when people aren't struggling to find their way or picking themselves through a mine field of traitors or whatever. So it's very possible that the new company is going to miss GenCon, and not get a new product out until Christmas. That will be a shame. But it's still avoidable if Topps picks a successor early enough.
Speculation. If IMR loses the license, if Topps awards it to some other company, if if if.

What about the books that were coming out any moment now? Don't hold your breath. First of all, a bunch of the books in the pipeline are, as currently set up, very bad. War!, Corp Guide, and Attitude are under current formulation basically wastes of paper. They need rewrites, and even reconcepting.
Speculation. I might agree on some of that, but it's a matter of opinion, not fact.

And that just isn't going to happen without a new company coming in and purging all the Coleman loyalists (which they should be doing anyway).
Speculation. I'm unaware of any 'Coleman loyalists' aside from Randall Bills and (presumably) Mrs. Coleman.

Randall Bills has promised a street date for the Limited Edition SR4A book of May 3rd, and those books are physically real items.
True. I pre-ordered mine.

But of course, he promised several other dates in the past and never delivered.
In accordance with standard Shadowrun procedure not to give street dates until they're solid, I believe this is in fact wrong - no specific date was given before the above post. Several generous guesstimates were made that did pass, due to the books taking a long time to get from the boat to the warehouse or something.

He has his wife doing the shipping, and Troy left with his computer.
True, see above.

So... it's anyone's guess how long it would take for books to actually reach anyone in particular.
True. I'd say speculation, except I know the US Post Office. USPO, I love you, but why you gotta make me so crazy?

And of course, any books that aren't properly shipped by the time they lose the license are going to be hidden in a drawer and sold on e-bay on the down low to try to pay Loren's court costs.
Speculation.

There, that wasn't so hard.
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post Apr 27 2010, 01:48 PM
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Very interesting.
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Demonseed Elite
post Apr 27 2010, 01:53 PM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 27 2010, 09:40 AM) *
Yeah, see that's just weird to me - people who are not intel, microsoft, AMD or Apple make calls about their product roadmap all the time, including praise and harsh critique. What seperates a RPG writer from an Intel chip designer, an MS software engineer or an Apple product designer?


Are you saying that Apple tolerates people leaking their future product roadmap? Police just raided the house of the blogger who posted the new iPhone prototype. Apple is not historically tolerate of leaks.

Which isn't to say the people don't speculate about the future of Apple's product roadmap all the time. Everyone knows a new iPhone is coming and there are tons of guesses as to what it might do and how people feel about various possible features. But that's different from some engineer posting his feeling on the design of the next iPhone based on the plans he had access to. Frank knows a good deal about these future products, he's probably seen book specs, proposals, and drafts. And apparently he doesn't like what he's seen. That's great. Since he's not a freelancer anymore, he can wait until the book comes out like the rest of us and then voice all of his feelings on it. But that wouldn't really serve his agenda very well.

I don't dislike Frank. He's a smart guy. And I appreciate that he seems to think my contributions to Shadowrun were, on the whole, strong. But he has an obvious agenda here and so I have to take each post he makes and filter it through the same filter I run any press release I see through. And I just don't think it's fair to the writers to comment publicly on material that isn't done yet, especially since I'm sure it was done without their permission. I didn't think it was very fair when AH did it either and he understands that.
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Jaid
post Apr 27 2010, 01:55 PM
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to those requesting a detailed analysis of frank's post to bull: i am not bull, and i obviously can't give you his analysis. but i can give you my analysis, which is based primarily on what i know from following the threads on dumpshock (at the time of starting this post, i had read all of the available information on dumpshock to my knowledge, but my knowledge of events does not extend to other message boards)

[edit: blast, AH beat me to it. as he said, it wasn't really too hard to notice much of the speculation. though i see we do have some disagreements regarding a few specific points, relating to randall bills and jennifer harding... he may have information i don't on this, i certainly don't have (much) in the way of non-public communication with jennifer ]

part 1 of (probably) 2

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
Here's the short version of the Shadowrun Situation:

Loren L. Coleman (the Battletech author, not the Cryptozoologist), is the majority shareholder of InMediaRes LLC. There are approximately 16 minority shareholders, a tally which is in no small part "approximate" because there have been at least two pieces of shadiness involving Mr. Coleman unilaterally transferring ownership of other people's stock.
citation needed. i can't say this is false, but i can say that we haven't heard anything about this on these forums at least (about the transfer of ownership, not about loren being the majority shareholder, which he doesn't provide a source for but which i am prepared to accept as being accurate)

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
Over the last three years, Mr. Coleman has been making more and more unauthorized draws on the corporate accounts. While doing so, he has had a mansion built for himself in a gated community in Snohomish, Washington. This construction project was paid for not only out of his own pocket, but also by contractors that were billed directly to the corporation as freelancers.

During this period, IMR has been subcontracting for books to be translated and published in German, French, and Japanese with Pegasus, Black Book Editions, and ArcLight respectively. These companies have turned royalties in to Mr. Coleman and he has voluntarily declined to ship the royalties up the chain to Topps. This is a continuation of a practice engaged in by FASA where the foreign royalties would simply be lost and not distributed. However, in this case it is directly demonstrable that malicious intent was held - in that Mr. Coleman directed his book keeper to leave foreign royalties unreported on the grounds that Topps "didn't care about them anyway."
again, citation needed on that last bit. Unless tiger eyes has related this conversation elsewhere, this is at best third or fourth hand information (though it may be true, we don't have any confirming information on that)

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
Also during this period, the reported income from conventions and direct sales has mysteriously fallen from nearly forty thousand dollars a year to less than six. This comes from Coleman selling things for cash and then simply pocketing the money rather than reporting it as corporate income. This means directly that royalties were not paid on those materials either.
again, quite possibly true, but we have no published numbers, only frank's source. still, he's been right about a fair amount, i'd say this is quite possibly true, but still not something we can know for sure.

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
Even after the real estate collapse, Mr. Coleman's house was appraised at a value of approximately $650,000. Over the last few years, he has consistently told creditors and investors that finances were much tighter than such extravagant expenses would indicate. Many creditors were not paid at all. And by "creditors" I don't just mean printers and advertisers and other "corporate" creditors, or even simply financial creditors such as the investors and poor suckers who made personal loans to IMR or Coleman directly - I include the actual creative staff. There are seriously Battletech writers whose checks are three years late, and given current financial problems may never be paid at all. Coleman's draws on company funds were so fast and heavy that some checks he wrote to writing and artistic staff actually bounced. My own personal checks were months late, and short by about a hundred dollars. And that was years ago (my last check actually arrived in 2008, though of course I stopped being a Freelancer there in September of 2007).
this part is essentially accurate; i don't know of any battletech writers offhand who are waiting on checks from three years back, but then i also don't frequent the battletech boards. (official or otherwise) i suspect if i did, i would know the freelancer(s) he is talking about. although this may be one of the singular instead of plural errors bull was talking about, i am in no position to know.

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
As this situation has boiled to a head, smaller and more agile companies have already divested themselves of connections with IMR and Mr. Coleman. Posthuman Studios (Eclipse Phase), and WildFire (CthulhuTech) have both cut themselves loose. WildFire has been quite public with the terms they have agreed to on splitting from Mr. Coleman, and he has broken those agreements twice. Three times if you include the fact that he didn't pay them their royalties in the first place. The first splitting agreement was that IMR couldn't make any new books, but they would sell off the remaining stock that said "Catalyst" on it and use some of the money to pay the owed royalties to WildFire. Coleman kept selling the books, but didn't pay the royalties. Then they made a new agreement where IMR had to give WildFire their remaining Cthulhutech stocks and that would count towards the royalties debts. However, when they opened those boxes, the books were still tens of thousands of dollars short of what was still owed. WildFire has now pressed for Chapter 7 against IMR.
wildfire pressing for chapter 7 we know. I'm not aware of any specific details that have been posted regarding earlier agreements, but then i also don't frequent the wildfire boards either (if any). it is possible those agreements have been made public. it is also possible that frank has sources in wildfire who are feeding him confidential information.

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
Other creditors may yet follow suit. Topps is pressing for an audit of IMR and Mr. Coleman's funds. The things they will find in that are... less than hopeful. IMR's Payables are currently much larger than their Receivables. Years of not paying corporate debts while the primary shareholder milks the company dry has left them in arrears to everyone they've had any contact with. And the books are literally unauditable. So much stuff has been rewritten or simply never written down at all that making sense of it would be a Herculean task of its own. There is no sales data - it's seriously just a list of money in and money out.
to my knowledge, this information is not publically available. by which i mean, we have no idea of frank's source for this information. once again, citation needed.

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
Meanwhile, the company has been hemorrhaging employees left and right. Some of them have been straight up asked to falsify financial documents or quit, while others have simply seen the writing on the wall and fled like rats on a sinking ship. Most hilariously, a good amount of corporate property has actually gone with the employees, since the employees often went and got equipment on their own to be "reimbursed" later on - reimbursements that likely as not never came. Most hilariously, the shipping computer left with the employee who used it.
the computer is not key, the information on the computer is. the information is property of the company, and i very much doubt that troy decided he'd get his jollies at the expense of the customers, who have done nothing wrong. and once again, i am not aware of any available source for this information, though frank may have one.

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
Mr. Coleman has been paying debts only when forced, and even then those debts have been paid late and often short. The only reason that any freelancers got paid in the recent days was because they were withholding copyright on books that they had been owed monies on for some time and which were in turn scheduled to sell for more in the remaining weeks than their own contracts. Nevertheless, a lot of high quality talent, and even medium quality talent, has stated that come hell or high water, they will never work with IMR again.
so far as i know, ancient history/bobby derie has stated he will not work with jason or loren (and possibly randall) again. this is quite likely one of the 'singular instead of plural' errors that bull was referring to, but there could be others (and admittedly, the loss of bobby derie is not a small thing)

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
So in all of this, you may ask three simple questions: Who are the bad guys in all of this? Does Shadowrun have a future? And of course: What about all those books we were promised?

The Bad Guys: It's tempting to get very angry at the people who rant on message boards defending the indefensible. Complete assholes like Bull and Doctor Funkenstein are certainly not helping anything, and their allegiances and blatant lack of ethics will doubtless be remembered long after this saga is over. But don't fool yourself: their antics aren't unexpected or particularly relevant. You can get 20% of the people to approve of whoever happens to be in charge no matter what they do. The bad guys are still Loren L Coleman, Randall Bills, and Jason Hardy.
i find it rather amusing that frank is accusing anyone of being a complete asshole. in any event, this is at *best* subjective. who's the bad guy? apparently whoever frank says it is.

This post has been edited by Jaid: Apr 27 2010, 02:06 PM
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Jaid
post Apr 27 2010, 01:56 PM
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part 2 of 2 (apparently i had more than the allowed number of quote blocks)

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
Loren Coleman of course is the man who proximally stole all the money. He is the center of the web of lies. It is he who demanded and received total control of the piggy bank and then sucked it dry while no one was looking. He's also trying to steal the company from the other investors. His legal defense is seriously that it only counts as embezzlement if he isn't the only owner, and that despite the fact that he took money from all his investors in exchange for partial ownership, and he has been sending them tax forms every year, that 3 to 4 years later he still hasn't gotten around to filing the forms properly to indicate that they actually own anything. So his defense against the charge of embezzlement is... interstate mail fraud. I can't even make this stuff up.
i am unaware of a source for most of the information about loren's legal situation. this doesn't make it false... once again, frank without a doubt has sources that i don't have. but it does mean we are only getting frank's view on this. and that we don't even know if he actually has a source for real at all.

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
Randall Bills is Loren's best friend. And he is one of Loren's closest allies. It was he who told the book keeper that if she didn't want to follow Loren's instructions to help defraud investors and license owners and the IRS that she could quit. And he said that he was "The Messiah of Battletech" without whose blessing the franchise would collapse. He also said that he would drive the company into the ground rather than jeopardize his friendship with Loren. And he has lied to people and done everything in his power to resist efforts to remove Loren from power or the cookie jar of finances. Currently, he has his wife doing the shipping to cover for the employees who left in disgust or were forced out for lack of loyalty.
well, the part about the wife handling shipping is accurate. and to my knowledge, the most we have on randall bills' actions towards tiger eyes/jennifer harding that has come from tiger eyes is that he said to work with loren or quit, not that she should do everything loren said. furthermore, tiger eyes herself, who i consider to be better informed as to what happened between tiger eyes and randall bills, has said that she didn't consider randall bills to have done anything unethical. if randall had also ordered her to falsify the reports, i doubt she would have said that.

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
Jason Hardy is the current Developer of Shadowrun. He was appointed for loyalty to Randall Bills rather than knowledge of Shadowrun or writing ability. He has continued that tradition by pushing writers out of the pool for showing insufficient loyalty to the company, regardless of knowledge of the subject, writing ability, or loyalty to the Shadowrun line. When the scandal broke, he locked arms with Randall and told him that people were spreading lies about him. I am not sure if he actually believes this to all be some sort of wacky misunderstanding, but in a sense it doesn't matter. What he is doing is pushing low quality products as part of a deliberate and very petty attempt to push through a published versions of books without the work done by people who refused to work with Loren. Heck, at this point there are a number of people who straight up will not work with Jason Hardy. The Trees thing even more than the whole "maliciously cutting people who aren't supporting thieves from the loop" thing.
well, jason has responded to this himself. i'm not clear how we can blame jason for others not being willing to work with him, but apparently it's all his fault. certainly, this is at best speculation presented as fact, as was pointed out by bull. certainly, the choice to not use the already-written material was blatantly not his choice, since ancient history has explicitly stated that it was he (ancient history) who withdrew the contract, not jason. while jason may or may not have been moving to remove ancient history from the future freelancer pool (and that seems likely, if not certain, based on earlier comments from jason), he is very clearly not responsible for ancient history's choice to not permit the material to be published. also, see jason's response to this.

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
So... what does that mean for Shadowrun? It means that Topps is going to award the license to someone else, and everyone who ranted about the Cult of Frank or whatever is going to get to like the taste of crow. Unfortunately, new books have a 90 day development cycle even when people aren't struggling to find their way or picking themselves through a mine field of traitors or whatever. So it's very possible that the new company is going to miss GenCon, and not get a new product out until Christmas. That will be a shame. But it's still avoidable if Topps picks a successor early enough.
perhaps. then again, perhaps Topps won't award the license elsewhere. I am not aware of Topps making any statements to that effect, and i rather doubt that frank has a source at Topps (though i suppose i can't rule out the possibility either; i have no source to the contrary). regardless, i'm going to have to say that this is likely one of bull's 'speculation presented as fact' points.

QUOTE ("Frank Trollman)
What about the books that were coming out any moment now? Don't hold your breath. First of all, a bunch of the books in the pipeline are, as currently set up, very bad. War!, Corp Guide, and Attitude are under current formulation basically wastes of paper. They need rewrites, and even reconcepting. And that just isn't going to happen without a new company coming in and purging all the Coleman loyalists (which they should be doing anyway). Randall Bills has promised a street date for the Limited Edition SR4A book of May 3rd, and those books are physically real items. But of course, he promised several other dates in the past and never delivered. He has his wife doing the shipping, and Troy left with his computer. So... it's anyone's guess how long it would take for books to actually reach anyone in particular. And of course, any books that aren't properly shipped by the time they lose the license are going to be hidden in a drawer and sold on e-bay on the down low to try to pay Loren's court costs.

-Frank
so far as i know, we haven't heard anyone other than ancient history comment on any manuscripts, and the only one he commented on is part of the corp guide. and that was not the final draft, it was a rough draft, which could still be refined or even redone. so we don't really know if any of those books will come out good or bad. it is, again, possible that frank *has* seen the submissions (i wouldn't be surprised if the same people who sent ancient history a copy also sent frank a copy), but frank's opinion isn't inherently my opinion, or your opinion, and it has been my experience that having relatively minor flaws seems to really get under frank's skin. as jason has said, apparently some of the orders have already been put in the mail. also, the part about the future fate of the SR4ALEs is, once again, speculation presented as fact.


now, some of you may argue that frank was merely using hyperbole or similar, which are accepted literary methods. the thing is... when you want to present yourself as someone who is delivering factual information, without bias, you don't use hyperbole. you provide hard information, with sources for that information, so that people know you aren't making stuff up. it's fine to use hyperbole, but it isn't fine to use hyperbole and exaggeration to prove your point, and then claim you don't have a point, that you are completely impartial, and that you have no agenda. or, in other words... you don't put spin on the information and then accuse others of putting spin on information and retain a lot of credibility when it comes to claiming your information is of superior validity, in my opinion.

i will grant that some of the information presented is likely accurate (or close enough to make no meaningful difference). certainly, frank has sources that i do not. but unless some of those sources are provably psychic, there just isn't any way he can present this information as facts, and even with such a source, he certainly couldn't claim that his perspective is unbiased. and i do recommend that you take everything that frank says with a grain of salt (just as i recommend you take anything CGL says with a grain of salt, for that matter) because it has plenty of spin on it.
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Dread Moores
post Apr 27 2010, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (TW @ Apr 27 2010, 09:23 AM) *
I'm not ignoring them, but regardless of how familiar these people may be with the Shadowrun universe and the specific writing style, there will be a learning curve. The loss of the so-called 'core freelancers' (like Jason Levine, Peter Taylor, Bobby Derie and Jennifer Harding) in terms of writing resources, kowledge, criticism and advice works against that learning curve.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but both Peter and Jason left quite a while before this current mess, didn't they? I'm not sure it's really fair to consider them core freelancers if they've left well before this, seeing as they would have been replaced already on the products that have come out since that time.
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DireRadiant
post Apr 27 2010, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (Korwin @ Apr 27 2010, 03:49 AM) *
QUOTE ("FrankTrollman")
...
Complete a...

-Frank


Personal attack is against the ToS
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Ancient History
post Apr 27 2010, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Apr 27 2010, 02:57 PM) *
Correct me if I'm wrong, but both Peter and Jason left quite a while before this current mess, didn't they? I'm not sure it's really fair to consider them core freelancers if they've left well before this, seeing as they would have been replaced already on the products that have come out since that time.

If it's at all indicative of the delays in the project schedule, Corp Guide was originally Synner's book.
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Fuchs
post Apr 27 2010, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Apr 27 2010, 03:57 PM) *
Correct me if I'm wrong, but both Peter and Jason left quite a while before this current mess, didn't they? I'm not sure it's really fair to consider them core freelancers if they've left well before this, seeing as they would have been replaced already on the products that have come out since that time.


That depends on how long the planning period for products is.

Edit: AH was faster and more informative.
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Dread Moores
post Apr 27 2010, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 27 2010, 09:07 AM) *
If it's at all indicative of the delays in the project schedule, Corp Guide was originally Synner's book.


Ouch. That's very not good.

No offense is intended to either Jason or Peter, I just have a crappy memory anymore. Thanks for the info though, Ancient. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Kid Chameleon
post Apr 27 2010, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 27 2010, 07:55 AM) *
this part is essentially accurate; i don't know of any battletech writers offhand who are waiting on checks from three years back, but then i also don't frequent the battletech boards. (official or otherwise) i suspect if i did, i would know the freelancer(s) he is talking about. although this may be one of the singular instead of plural errors bull was talking about, i am in no position to know.


Well, that certainly is true if you include all of us still owed by FanPro. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)
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post Apr 27 2010, 02:20 PM
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Vice and Corporate Guide were indeed my final projects for Catalyst as developer and both were delivered for editing and layout in April 2009, a month after I officially stepped down. They were 2 of 5 projects I left in the final stages of the production pipeline, of which 2 remain to be released.

Though I continue to love and work on stuff in my spare time, I have not actively contributed as a freelancer (at least, for the English line) since leaving Catalyst for both personal and professional reasons. I don't feel comfortable talking about either on this thread.

QUOTE
(...)I'm not sure it's really fair to consider them core freelancers if they've left well before this(...)

Having written more than 10000 words for SR4A alone (including a short story), drafted and (re)written entire chapters for every book in the Shadowrun 4 line released to date except the original corebook, and with credits as author, artist, editor, assistant developer, or developer in every Shadowrun release since Dragons of the Sixth World, I would still presume to call myself a "core freelancer".
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BTFreeLancer
post Apr 27 2010, 02:25 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 27 2010, 02:55 PM) *
this part is essentially accurate; i don't know of any battletech writers offhand who are waiting on checks from three years back, but then i also don't frequent the battletech boards. (official or otherwise) i suspect if i did, i would know the freelancer(s) he is talking about.


I very much doubt it.

We (BT freelancers) have largely stayed quiet on this. Call it professionalism, call it misplaced loyalty, call it ambivalence - whatever. And the BT community (official or otherwise) on the whole seems to have taken the same attitude.

One thing I will note is Topps requirement to change the WizKids logo to the Topps logo - seeing as this is can really only be applied to new products (I doubt Matt Heerdt and Ray Arrastia are changing the logo on every PDF in the BattleShop), it's an indication at the very least that Topps is seriously considering the renewal.
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Fuchs
post Apr 27 2010, 02:25 PM
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Some of those books have taken, or are taking, a long time to come out then. That doesn't look good for other products in the pipeline.
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Dread Moores
post Apr 27 2010, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 27 2010, 09:55 AM) *
this part is essentially accurate; i don't know of any battletech writers offhand who are waiting on checks from three years back, but then i also don't frequent the battletech boards. (official or otherwise) i suspect if i did, i would know the freelancer(s) he is talking about. although this may be one of the singular instead of plural errors bull was talking about, i am in no position to know.

wildfire pressing for chapter 7 we know. I'm not aware of any specific details that have been posted regarding earlier agreements, but then i also don't frequent the wildfire boards either (if any). it is possible those agreements have been made public. it is also possible that frank has sources in wildfire who are feeding him confidential information.


In regards to the BT forums, no, even if you frequent those forums, you're not going to find freelancers talking about what they are owed. The BT freelancers largely seem to have closed ranks (at least publicly) and also anything regarding numbers/figures is typically removed by the mods (either due to no backing proof or inappropriate for public consumption, as I recall). So don't go looking there for any more information on that.

Pretty much the same for Wildfire. The Ctech boards have yet to even comment on the lawsuit existing, and as far as I remember, there's not even a press release regarding the lawsuit. That's probably a wise move in both cases.

If that info is being leaked, that's certainly possible, considering some of the other leaks that existed in this whole situation. But I'm pretty sure that info isn't coming from either of those two forums.
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Dread Moores
post Apr 27 2010, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 27 2010, 10:20 AM) *
Having personally written more than 10000 words for SR4A alone (including a short story), rewritten and drafted entire chapters for every book in the Shadowrun 4 line except the original corebook, and with credits as author, artist, editor, assistant developer, or developer in every Shadowrun release since Dragons of the Sixth World, I would presume to call myself a "core freelancer".


Like I said above, no disrespect was intended. I just honestly couldn't remember when you left. I guess for some reason, I had it stuck in my head that you and Jason left around the same time, which was way early on in the SR4 development. I'm just getting old and forgetful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I wasn't trying to imply you were never a core freelancer (however that's defined, really it just seems like a weird thing to differentiate to me) or weren't obviously integral. I just don't always remember who did what and when, so I mistakenly assumed that you had left earlier, hence not writing as much for SR4 and subsequently being replaced earlier. My apologies on the mistake, and proving the whole assumption bit true on my end.
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JM Hardy
post Apr 27 2010, 02:34 PM
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Two quick things:

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 27 2010, 08:42 AM) *
He has continued that tradition by pushing writers out of the pool for showing insufficient loyalty to the company, regardless of knowledge of the subject, writing ability, or loyalty to the Shadowrun line.
Speculation. Locking me out of the freelancer forums was the incentive for me jumping ship; and reportedly he did the same to a few others. Certainly the heightened paranoia around security and leaking drafts that led to the abandonment of the freelancer forums hasn't helped much, but I am unaware of Jason intentionally trying to push freelancers out.


Drafts did in fact leak out. I find it odd to refer to "paranoia" in a situation where leaks are actively happening.

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 27 2010, 08:42 AM) *
When the scandal broke, he locked arms with Randall and told him that people were spreading lies about him.
Speculation. I heard that Jason when initially informed did go to Randall and take action against the individual that had informed him of Loren's "co-mingling of funds", but there's no way to confirm it independently.


This is incorrect. When I contacted people, the only actions I advised were communication with the fan base about the situation. I have never advocated that management take a specific action against anyone, including the person who told me about the co-mingling.

Jason H.
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post Apr 27 2010, 02:37 PM
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I'm just going to comment on the few parts that I'm qualified to comment on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 27 2010, 09:42 AM) *
Nevertheless, a lot of high quality talent, and even medium quality talent, has stated that come hell or high water, they will never work with IMR again.
Certainly Jennifer Harding, Jay Levine, myself, and several other ex-freelancers are of that opinion.


Eight years of writing for the RPG industry has made me less forgiving of it, not more. The bar has gotten higher, so to speak. IMR, as it exists currently, is at best a disorganized mess that can hardly call itself a business. At worst, it is a sham built around filling Loren L. Coleman's pocket. The truth may be somewhere in the middle, but that's still not a company I would want to work for. I like my name to be on things that I'm proud of.

I generally don't like burning bridges and unlike Frank and some others, my agenda isn't to drive IMR into the ground. My agenda, as honestly as I can state it, is for Shadowrun to be in the hands of a publisher who is respectful of its staff and freelance employees and honest with its customers. Could IMR be that publisher? I suppose anything is possible, but right now they would have a long way to go to reach that point. And as I've stated before, I've seen a lot of emergency measures so far, but I can't pin down anything substantial on future changes to IMR. Right now I don't know what the future will bring for Shadowrun, but I'll just wait and see.

QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Apr 27 2010, 09:57 AM) *
Correct me if I'm wrong, but both Peter and Jason left quite a while before this current mess, didn't they? I'm not sure it's really fair to consider them core freelancers if they've left well before this, seeing as they would have been replaced already on the products that have come out since that time.


True, we left before this mess, though I consider this current mess connected to the problems I dealt with back in 2008. Whether I'm a core freelancer or not depends on your definition of "core", I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) All I can really say is that I was prolific freelancer and a long-term freelancer, with a lot of word count and book credits with Shadowrun.
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Ancient History
post Apr 27 2010, 02:45 PM
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QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 27 2010, 03:34 PM) *
Drafts did in fact leak out. I find it odd to refer to "paranoia" in a situation where leaks are actively happening.

Considering I've been talking with the people on the other side of the issue, who don't particularly appreciate the lack of trust shown in them by your actions, I think you're probably not delusional about it but you are paranoid about it.

QUOTE
This is incorrect. When I contacted people, the only actions I advised were communication with the fan base about the situation. I have never advocated that management take a specific action against anyone, including the person who told me about the co-mingling.

<shrug> Your word against theirs - and I trust them more.
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Demonseed Elite
post Apr 27 2010, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Apr 27 2010, 10:30 AM) *
Like I said above, no disrespect was intended. I just honestly couldn't remember when you left. I guess for some reason, I had it stuck in my head that you and Jason left around the same time, which was way early on in the SR4 development. I'm just getting old and forgetful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Well, my last work with Catalyst was August of 2008, when I sent an e-mail to John Dunn, Peter Taylor, David Stansel-Garner, and Randall Bills telling Catalyst to take me off the Manhattan e-book project and not use any of the drafts I'd given them, because three previous e-mails from me asking for my contract hadn't resulted in me actually getting a contract to sign. John was pressuring me to turn in Manhattan e-book drafts because he was apparently being pressured from above, but I wasn't about to turn in material without signing anything, and I told them as much. To be fair to John and Peter, both of them did reply to me and did try to pass my concerns up the chain, where they apparently fell on deaf ears.

But my access to the freelancer forums, and I guess my status as a freelancer with them, was revoked the same day that Peter's time as line developer ended, in April of 2009. I didn't get any warning that they were removing my freelancer forum access and apparently Peter didn't get any warning they were removing it either, from conversations I had with him that very day. I still don't know why exactly I was removed. I guess maybe because I hadn't written anything for them in six months or so, but I had still stayed very involved on the freelancer forums with feedback and draft commenting until I found I could no longer log into them.
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Dread Moores
post Apr 27 2010, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 27 2010, 10:37 AM) *
True, we left before this mess, though I consider this current mess connected to the problems I dealt with back in 2008. Whether I'm a core freelancer or not depends on your definition of "core", I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) All I can really say is that I was prolific freelancer and a long-term freelancer, with a lot of word count and book credits with Shadowrun.


Again, like with Synner, my apologies. It's bad phrasing on my part. I wasn't attempting to imply neither of your work was unimportant, simply that I had thought (mistakenly) that the timing was separated by quite a bit. Meaning it seemed like you and Synner were being lumped in as leaving with some of those other recent folks, as part of the most recent issues. That's all I was trying to point. Clearly I did that badly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now how far back these issues go, and if they are all more of one big interconnected mess? It certainly begins to look that way, but that's just opinion from these biased eyes.
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Fuchs
post Apr 27 2010, 02:54 PM
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A few years by most accounts. Back to FanPro's days by some accounts.
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JM Hardy
post Apr 27 2010, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 27 2010, 09:34 AM) *
This is incorrect. When I contacted people, the only actions I advised were communication with the fan base about the situation. I have never advocated that management take a specific action against anyone, including the person who told me about the co-mingling.


You know, I was thinking about this as I was putting laundry in a drier, and I was perhaps a tad too absolute. I did ask for one freelancer to be removed from the forums, as has been discussed often--I consider that an action I took, but given that other people had the passwords necessary to administer to forums, I had to ask other people to do it, so in that sense, I did ask management to take action against someone. Also, a bit after things broke, I recommended that people who were no longer employees be removed from the board for employees, which seemed like common sense to me (and not really "against" them, since the people had resigned).

As far as the person who told me about the co-mingling, though, I stand by my statement. I did not recommend action against that person. Given that this recommendation for action supposedly took place in a conversation between myself and Randall, I'm one of only two people that knows what I said. I even just reviewed chat transcripts to make sure my memory isn't playing tricks on me. It's not.

Jason H.
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Demonseed Elite
post Apr 27 2010, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Apr 27 2010, 10:48 AM) *
Again, like with Synner, my apologies. It's bad phrasing on my part. I wasn't attempting to imply neither of your work was unimportant, simply that I had thought (mistakenly) that the timing was separated by quite a bit. Meaning it seemed like you and Synner were being lumped in as leaving with some of those other recent folks, as part of the most recent issues. That's all I was trying to point. Clearly I did that badly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now how far back these issues go, and if they are all more of one big interconnected mess? It certainly begins to look that way, but that's just opinion from these biased eyes.


No offense taken and no need to apologize. We are often lumped in with the freelancers who recently withheld copyright or terminated contracts. I'm not bothered by this, because in my case, I agree with those freelancers' actions. They are responding to the same issues I had with Catalyst in 2008, but in the middle of a much messier and more public situation. If I were in their shoes, I would have done the same thing.

As far as the problems being connected, I have a hard time seeing how they aren't. When I transitioned from FanPro to Catalyst, I was skeptical. I was being burned by FanPro on some payments. Catalyst, though, was full of promises about how things would be different. I was specifically told that a new streamlined system was being implemented to make sure contracts went out on time and were signed and sealed before draft work began. I was also told that since Catalyst had a full-time Operations Manager (David Stansel-Garner), someone would always be on top of the contracts and payments. I was still skeptical, but Catalyst had some great people signing on that I respected (Rob Boyle, Peter Taylor and Adam Jury among them), so I decided to keep going with them. But it didn't take long before the contracts were late and payments were late. And I can't help but think that was connected to IMR's very shoddy business practices and possibly also to cash-flow problems at least partially caused by Loren L. Coleman's frequent withdrawals from the account.
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augmentin
post Apr 27 2010, 03:51 PM
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post Apr 27 2010, 04:13 PM
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I am speculating here and its about the topic

I wish the lawyers I know and hangout with were in Washington/Seattle. If one tenth of the business decisions discussed here could be proven, or will occur, the lawyers will make out like madmen.

Frag being a runner chummer, the real money here is in litigation.

BlueMax
/and if there was real money in internet libel suits
// boy howdy, I could see some money there too.
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post Apr 27 2010, 04:25 PM
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So I just got caught up, something that occured to me while I was fixing breakfast after reading through and get caught up though:

If Frank is right, what's taking so long?

Honestly Frank has stated on multiple occasions that he has contacted Topps and passed on evidence of wrong doing and otherwise made them aware of the situation. If a portion of what Frank asseses is true and valid then it should be a no-brainer for Topps to announce that the license will be renewed and start the process to get a new company involved, which could take perhaps a year of more, which would pretty much suck for all of us who Shadowrun factors largely into our summer con plans. Unless Topps is required by the contract to allow the previous contractor to have first swipe on the license given the magnitude of the transgressions one would think Topps would have already made an announcement and not even allowed IMR to go through the motions of making a bid, that ignores the fact the Topps is going to want their money, plain and simple.


So yea while I don't have much look down into the secret back room deals, nor claim to, I've done contracted work on an individual level, and been a party to it at the corporate level and usually everyone knows well in advance when a contractor has blown their chances of getting renewed, we've seen no signs like that as yet from Topps.
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post Apr 27 2010, 04:30 PM
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Negotiations between Topps and CGL as well as between Topps and other companies interested in the SR and/ or BT license may well be happening at this time. If there are other companies who like to get one or both licenses.
And Topps is obviously wise enough not to post details of their negotations at a public forum.

How much they care about Frank Trollman and how much value they put in his information is an entirely different question.
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Dread Moores
post Apr 27 2010, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 27 2010, 11:25 AM) *
So I just got caught up, something that occured to me while I was fixing breakfast after reading through and get caught up though:

If Frank is right, what's taking so long?


To be fair, most large corporations like Topps seem to work at a snail's pace in terms of decision making. At least that's been my experience.
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post Apr 27 2010, 04:40 PM
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What would Topps gain by announcing that they would not be allowing Catalyst to renew the lease of the license? If the assumption is that the license lease will be renewed, production continues, and sales continue, and Topps keeps accumulating owed royalties. If it announces that Catalyst is a lame duck company, then production grinds to a halt as there's no reason to bother with working on a project that has just been effectively canceled, and even less incentive to pay to print books that can't be sold.
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Dread Moores
post Apr 27 2010, 04:46 PM
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That's also a good point. I'd hazard a guess that the only announcement regarding the license status will either be about CGL renewing or another company taking over. Not so much a "CGL got booted."
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LurkerOutThere
post Apr 27 2010, 04:49 PM
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The three weeks remaining are not enough for a production cycle on anything that wasn't basically already in the process of being boxed up and shipped. Further despite what some suggest the biggest benefit that Topps get by publicly announcing a changing of the guard is it will serve as notification to others who might not have originally put up a bid against an incumbent that they have a very real chance of picking up the license if their proposal is sound. That would shorten the "gap time" that a new license change-over would cause.

So yea, call me crazy but I'm at the very least presuming that until the balloon goes up IMR has at least an even, if not better then even chance of retaining the license. If not well I've had crow before both literally and figuratively and it'll be ok, someone may want to make sure Frank is checked on incase he suffers an aneurysm or pulmonary problems if things don't go his way, point of fact I just can't get upset enough about this whole deal to think people should die about it.
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Doc Chaos
post Apr 27 2010, 05:04 PM
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Just as a matter of interest: does this 90 day dev cicle mean "90 days from the idea to the shipping of the book" or what is covered in that timespan?
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DWC
post Apr 27 2010, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 27 2010, 12:49 PM) *
The three weeks remaining are not enough for a production cycle on anything that wasn't basically already in the process of being boxed up and shipped. Further despite what some suggest the biggest benefit that Topps get by publicly announcing a changing of the guard is it will serve as notification to others who might not have originally put up a bid against an incumbent that they have a very real chance of picking up the license if their proposal is sound. That would shorten the "gap time" that a new license change-over would cause.

So yea, call me crazy but I'm at the very least presuming that until the balloon goes up IMR has at least an even, if not better then even chance of retaining the license. If not well I've had crow before both literally and figuratively and it'll be ok, someone may want to make sure Frank is checked on incase he suffers an aneurysm or pulmonary problems if things don't go his way, point of fact I just can't get upset enough about this whole deal to think people should die about it.


I'm not speculating about which way the license goes. I don't know the whole story, so I'm playing the "wait and see" game. Admittedly, my loyalty is to the game, not the people who sell it, so as long as the product quality remains, I don't give a shit who's selling it. Really the only way the situation would really effect me would be a spontaneous death to the Missions events for Gencon, which would mean I'd be fighting with them to get my event registration cash back, and struggling to get into a pile of other stuff since I can't bail on my airfare without paying a change fee that's higher than the cost of my ticket.

On the other hand, I'll definitely agree that three weeks isn't enough to get anything out the door. How does Topps benefit by having Catalyst learn that they can no longer make money by putting Shadowrun material out before it happens? The people who might put in a bid for the license are well aware of the current situation, and have probably already started talking to Topps.

One of the few things I'm really curious about is what happens to all the material currently in production if the license is transferred? Does the unpaid for material revert to the authors? Does the paid for material revert to Topps? Does Catalyst own the material with the contingency that the only person they can sell it to is the new licensee? Since everyone who knows the answer to this has nothing to gain by disclosing it, and Catalyst has only released information in attempt to cast a positive light on someone else airing their dirty laundry, I don't expect an answer, nor do I think that I deserve one.

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The Monk
post Apr 27 2010, 06:17 PM
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How long does the license last before they have to renew again? Is it possible that Topps will allow Catalyst to retain the license to see if they can right their ship rather than put the license back up for sale?

Considering that they probably have lots of legal bills to pay because of the situation with Upper Deck and MLB, not to mention the down economy, it might make sense for them to delay any transfer of the Shadowrun/Battletech license until things look brighter economically.

And if they can dig deep into Catalyst's books and make them pay what they owe as well as the monies to renew the license, it might offset some of their losses this quarter.
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darthmord
post Apr 27 2010, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (BTFreeLancer @ Apr 27 2010, 10:25 AM) *
I very much doubt it.

We (BT freelancers) have largely stayed quiet on this. Call it professionalism, call it misplaced loyalty, call it ambivalence - whatever. And the BT community (official or otherwise) on the whole seems to have taken the same attitude.

One thing I will note is Topps requirement to change the WizKids logo to the Topps logo - seeing as this is can really only be applied to new products (I doubt Matt Heerdt and Ray Arrastia are changing the logo on every PDF in the BattleShop), it's an indication at the very least that Topps is seriously considering the renewal.


Perhaps the writers for a given line are unknowingly taking on the attributes of the main characters of said line...

Mechwarriors tend to be all about honor, the fight, the glory, doing as they are told, etc etc.

Shadowrunners are all about sticking it to the man, ignoring the rules, getting the job and paydata taken care of, applying street level justice, etc etc.
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crizh
post Apr 27 2010, 06:22 PM
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Presumably it will last as long as Topps is willing to let it last.

Conceivably they could give Catalyst a short 3 month licence to get it's shit together and pay Topps what they are owed and then re-assess the situation.
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darthmord
post Apr 27 2010, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (DWC @ Apr 27 2010, 01:14 PM) *
One of the few things I'm really curious about is what happens to all the material currently in production if the license is transferred? Does the unpaid for material revert to the authors? Does the paid for material revert to Topps? Does Catalyst own the material with the contingency that the only person they can sell it to is the new licensee? Since everyone who knows the answer to this has nothing to gain by disclosing it, and Catalyst has only released information in attempt to cast a positive light on someone else airing their dirty laundry, I don't expect an answer, nor do I think that I deserve one.


What I understand is this...

Unpaid material reverts to the writer.

Contracted material would transfer to the new company but copyright is still retained by the writer until payment is received.

Paid material is owned by Topps.

Freelancers, Adam, Synner et al, please correct the above if I'm wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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The Monk
post Apr 27 2010, 06:29 PM
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So it has to do with the contract that they draw, and not some industry standard, interesting.

They can, for example, come up with a number that Catalyst owes for past royalties, extend their license with terms that they must pay back that money by that time.

Is this a possibility?
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crizh
post Apr 27 2010, 06:33 PM
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@Darthmord

I think you have the gist of it.

@The Monk

I think so. Anything could happen.
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Demonseed Elite
post Apr 27 2010, 06:34 PM
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QUOTE (The Monk @ Apr 27 2010, 01:29 PM) *
So it has to do with the contract that they draw, and not some industry standard, interesting.

They can, for example, come up with a number that Catalyst owes for past royalties, extend their license with terms that they must pay back that money by that time.

Is this a possibility?


Speaking purely out of speculation and with no inside knowledge of how the Topps Shadowrun/BT license works, they can pretty much draw up whatever they want. They own the intellectual property and they license it to another company. They can set whatever conditions they want on the license as long as someone agrees to sign it.
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BishopMcQ
post Apr 27 2010, 06:52 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chaos @ Apr 27 2010, 09:04 AM) *
Just as a matter of interest: does this 90 day dev cicle mean "90 days from the idea to the shipping of the book" or what is covered in that timespan?

Doc--I'm honestly not sure where Frank came up with that number. There are number of steps and processes that go into a book from Idea to Store-shelf. Depending on the project, that could be a multi-year process or shortened down. In my experience, the shortest book I've ever seen was about 9 months from when the developer said "send in proposals" to the book arriving in stores.

There are also a slew of production changes that can affect the time to market for a project - is it color or BW, printed domestically or foreign, what art assets need to be modified, did the proof sample look okay or were changes made...

My Real Job is in Project Management, so I could keep going on the hundreds of little steps that all go into the process, but I think you can understand the general flow.

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Doc Chaos
post Apr 27 2010, 06:59 PM
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Yeah, I do, thanks for the insight (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was kind of wondering why those cycles where that short according to Frank ;D
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RunnerPaul
post Apr 27 2010, 07:00 PM
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On the matter of the computer with the customer order data that left with Troy, Jaid wrote:
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 27 2010, 09:55 AM) *
the computer is not key, the information on the computer is. the information is property of the company, and i very much doubt that troy decided he'd get his jollies at the expense of the customers, who have done nothing wrong.

To this, I would like to offer up this single datapoint: I pre-ordered SR4A LE as soon as it was available, but at the end of April 2009 I had a need to change the shipping address on my order. Fired off a quick email to Troy, and he annotated a note with the new address into the comments section of the order. Fast forward to the end of this last February, and when I see the announcement that the books are finally on the way. I touch base with Troy to double check that the new address is still listed, and he gets back to me with an email showing that the correct address is still in the order comments.

Then, I get my order update from Tara's comcast email account this last weekend, and the order comments section is blank. I've sent emails straight to Tara's comcast account and to the quatermaster@catalystgamelabs.com email regarding the change of shipping address, and have yet to receive a reply. While the information on the computer is key, -in my case at least, the information they're working with doesn't match what Troy was working with a month ago.-
[edit]After Tara replied to me on Tuesday, I figured out that their automated update emails just list Order Comments added for that particular update, and my change of address info is still in their system.[/edit]

I too, doubt that this is due to any malice on Troy's part, but the circumstances under which he left didn't particularly allow for a smooth transition to a replacement. The cause could be as simple as pulling up the wrong report from the order database, which could have just as easily happened if the hardware had been company owned and never left. Or perhaps they're working from a backup copy, and their archival procedure is less than iron-clad.
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Bull
post Apr 27 2010, 07:12 PM
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Paul: Go to your Account Information, and click View on your order. See if your address was updated in the Order History box. I had to have my shipping information changed last July when I moved down to Dayton, and it shows the change of address for me.

QUOTE
Order History
03/11/2009 Pending
07/13/2009 20th Anniversary SR4 Pre-Order New Address:

XXX XXXXXXX Dr
Dayton, Ohio 45459
04/23/2010 Processing


And as a note though, I still haven't gotten an email about it. <shrug>

Bull
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post Apr 27 2010, 07:43 PM
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I'm not expecting to see anything from Topps about CGL for a few simple reasons:

1. The license was for a set period of time. If either party ended it early there will be lawyering and that costs money and time. This close to the cut off you might as well see it through. If Topps goes after CGL, it will do so after the license is up so the issue isn't confused with a breach of contract as well.

2. Leaving CGL in the public eye as a candidate for the license means that Topps has leverage against anyone who wants to make an offer. Anyone floating one would have to beat CGL (or what they assume CGL will offer) and that's a lot higher than making an offer on a derelict IP.

3. Topps wants to make money off this deal. If there are no other options they will attempt to work with CGL to make money off of the IPs. I'm sure they will also demand certain standards be met internally and more than likely require that CGL not only pay for those standards to be met, but then pay for the audit that preceded them and that they pay Topps anything still owed.

What do you think? Am I missing something, off base?
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Ancient History
post Apr 27 2010, 07:58 PM
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There are, as I understand it, other ways for the contract to end - such as IMR becoming insolvent. If Topps is doing an audit as Frank says, it would be looking at that.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Apr 27 2010, 08:01 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 27 2010, 11:25 AM) *
So I just got caught up, something that occured to me while I was fixing breakfast after reading through and get caught up though:

If Frank is right, what's taking so long?

Honestly Frank has stated on multiple occasions that he has contacted Topps and passed on evidence of wrong doing and otherwise made them aware of the situation. If a portion of what Frank asseses is true and valid then it should be a no-brainer for Topps to announce that the license will be renewed and start the process to get a new company involved, which could take perhaps a year of more, which would pretty much suck for all of us who Shadowrun factors largely into our summer con plans. Unless Topps is required by the contract to allow the previous contractor to have first swipe on the license given the magnitude of the transgressions one would think Topps would have already made an announcement and not even allowed IMR to go through the motions of making a bid, that ignores the fact the Topps is going to want their money, plain and simple.


So yea while I don't have much look down into the secret back room deals, nor claim to, I've done contracted work on an individual level, and been a party to it at the corporate level and usually everyone knows well in advance when a contractor has blown their chances of getting renewed, we've seen no signs like that as yet from Topps.



I can think of a big reason.

If even 1/10th of what we've heard is true, then Coleman is a blatant thief that has stolen over $700,000. If they announce early, then someone already proven to be a huge thief and Dbag,will have that time in which to steal everything else that's not bolted down and bring in some wrenches and screwdrivers and stuff for that which is.

The guy can't be trusted and is clearly a thief, that's pretty much universally accepted no matter which side of this you're coming down on. To announce early would just prompt him to take everything he can before he looses it.

I know.. a bit of a negative view.. but a guy that builds a mansion in a gated community with company funds while checks to writers bounce.. will steal company property and 'misplace it' for gain later.

Edit:

That same person that sees nothing wrong with stealing 100sof 1000s of dollars is also not above taking/destroying/corrupting data and stuff to prevent others from benefiting. Torpeedoing the stuff in progress or taking and shredding (deleting) it all out of spite if he can't profit over it.

SPECULATION. Sure. Totally 100%.. but if you see nothing wrong with stealing hundreds of thousands of bucks. You're a schmuck that I wouldn't trust on ANYTHING with the business.
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RunnerPaul
post Apr 27 2010, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Apr 27 2010, 03:12 PM) *
Paul: Go to your Account Information, and click View on your order. See if your address was updated in the Order History box.


The updated address does show on the Battleshop website, which makes it even stranger that the same order comment was not in my email from Tara. My main concern is that if the new address doesn't show for her when she's emailing me a status update, it won't show for her when she's mailing me the book itself. I have a forwarding order with the Post Office, but that's only good untill the end of May, which is cutting it close.

Jason has PM'ed me about this, but ultimately, he's not the one handling the shipping.
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Bull
post Apr 27 2010, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Apr 27 2010, 03:11 PM) *
The updated address does show on the Battleshop website, which makes it even stranger that the same order comment was not in my email from Tara. My main concern is that if the new address doesn't show for her when she's emailing me a status update, it won't show for her when she's mailing me the book itself. I have a forwarding order with the Post Office, but that's only good untill the end of May, which is cutting it close.


OK, sounds like your information was entered differently then mine then, or something. Having not gotten an email, I have no idea what is and isn't in the "order comments". If the correct address is in the Battleshop computer though, I would assume that the shipment will go to the correct address? Or did the email you got have your old address on it still?

Bull
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DireRadiant
post Apr 27 2010, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 27 2010, 02:01 PM) *
... a blatant thief that has stolen .... proven to be a huge thief and Dbag...

Edited by DireRadiant


Personal attacks are against the Terms of Service. So are inflammatory and baiting remarks.

Standards of proof vary.

Yes, there is an account.





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augmentin
post Apr 27 2010, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 27 2010, 12:25 PM) *
So I just got caught up, something that occured to me while I was fixing breakfast after reading through and get caught up though:

If Frank is right, what's taking so long?

Honestly Frank has stated on multiple occasions that he has contacted Topps and passed on evidence of wrong doing and otherwise made them aware of the situation. If a portion of what Frank asseses is true and valid then it should be a no-brainer for Topps to announce that the license will be renewed and start the process to get a new company involved, which could take perhaps a year of more, which would pretty much suck for all of us who Shadowrun factors largely into our summer con plans. Unless Topps is required by the contract to allow the previous contractor to have first swipe on the license given the magnitude of the transgressions one would think Topps would have already made an announcement and not even allowed IMR to go through the motions of making a bid, that ignores the fact the Topps is going to want their money, plain and simple.


So yea while I don't have much look down into the secret back room deals, nor claim to, I've done contracted work on an individual level, and been a party to it at the corporate level and usually everyone knows well in advance when a contractor has blown their chances of getting renewed, we've seen no signs like that as yet from Topps.


If Frank is right, Topps would be foolish to announce they had deselected any vendor. The more vendors bidding, the more competitive the bids. Plus all the other reasons above.
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augmentin
post Apr 27 2010, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 27 2010, 10:34 AM) *
When I contacted people, the only actions I advised were communication with the fan base about the situation.


Question purely for curiosity's sake: Did you encourage the freelancers to post defending CGL/IMR? If so, are they posting on behalf of CGL? It really doesn't matter either way, I'm just fascinated by the PR angle in this story.
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augmentin
post Apr 27 2010, 08:32 PM
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#$%* double post.
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kzt
post Apr 27 2010, 08:37 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 27 2010, 10:25 AM) *
So I just got caught up, something that occured to me while I was fixing breakfast after reading through and get caught up though:

If Frank is right, what's taking so long?

It's easier and simpler for someone to simply decline to renew a contract than to take any active moves. If the license ends without Topps doing something they can simply not do anything and their problem goes away. Then they can work on leasing or selling the license.
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