4th Edition Threats Options

[Prime Mover]

I know alot of dumpshockers are street level fans. Personally I like to involve my players in deeper darker waters. In first and second edition my games centered on corporate and criminal entanglements. Late in second edition and moving forward I centered my games around more world shaking events and npc's. With 4th edition I've tried to touch all bases both street level and world shaking conspiracy. Even if the players don't realize there shaping world events, they've still been involved. So that brings me back to the thought which caused me to post the topic.

Has there ever been an update to "Threats" proposed for 4th edition? Is there a need/want in the community at large for an "Other Power Players" source book? What would you as a GM or player would you like to see updated/added?

As a side note who's your favorite villain not affiliated with a Corporate or Orgainized Crime source? Who do your players love to hate?

[Rand]

I am like you, PM, I prefer to get away from the street-level action and embroil the PCs in world shaking events - it stems from my perference of heroics. A new Threats book could be nice, but I think they have enough going on right now just to get the books they have planned out. Oh well.

Something for you to look into is Dark Conspiracy from GDW. I incorporate a bit of that setting, mixing it with the Horrors from Earthdawn. Of course, a bit of work is needed to make it fit as it was created in the early 90's and set around 2008, so there is not nearly the amount of technology in DC as there is in SR that needs to be taken into consideration.

[Dread Moores]

I'd be very happy to see an updated Threats and Loose Alliances type books. I thought both of those were pretty useful in 3rd edition (well, technically Threats 2 in 3rd).

[Prime Mover]

I'm certainly not advocating putting more on an already crowded plate at the moment for the SR folks. But NPC stats of varying degrees and some plot point threats are both things I definitely would use/have used. Maybe somewhere down the road.

Edit: One of my favorite threats from the past and one I've used as a behind the scenes mover and shaker is the Black Lodge.

[Hagga]

I know alot of dumpshockers are street level fans. Personally I like to involve my players in deeper darker waters. In first and second edition my games centered on corporate and criminal entanglements. Late in second edition and moving forward I centered my games around more world shaking events and npc's. With 4th edition I've tried to touch all bases both street level and world shaking conspiracy. Even if the players don't realize there shaping world events, they've still been involved. So that brings me back to the thought which caused me to post the topic.

Has there ever been an update to "Threats" proposed for 4th edition? Is there a need/want in the community at large for an "Other Power Players" source book? What would you as a GM or player would you like to see updated/added?

As a side note who's your favorite villain not affiliated with a Corporate or Orgainized Crime source? Who do your players love to hate?

There are plenty of magical threats, to use as a scalpel or a sledgehammer as the case may warrants, but some people like Art Dankwalther would be nice. A good, mundane nutter who can do (nearly) anything someone like Lofwyr can with an obscene bankaccount and testicles the size of grapefruits.

Oh, and Harlequin. Whoever came up with that idea needs a serious arse-kicking.

[last_of_the_grea...]

I wanna see Lofwyr's official stats!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I wanna see Lofwyr's official stats!

Why? He is a Mary Sue Plot Device... They don't need official stats...

Keep the Faith

[Demonseed Elite]

It would be interesting to see a Fourth Edition update for previously-published Threats. Some of them had stories that wrapped up, but others are just sort of hanging on doing who-knows-what. For new Fourth Edition players, many of these groups would be brand new, and for old-timers it would update them and make them more relevant in the 2070s.

[Kumo]

I'm not sure we really need new book... New Threats would probably make a mess in 6th World (it's alredy crowded, like Prime Mover said) or just double the older books. Let's see:
- dragons, Human Nation, KSAF are still around; also all those secret societes like Black Lodge or Templars (hey, they are secret! Be happy that you just heard of them!). I think it would be better to put them in some other supplements (6th World Almanach, maybe?) or adventures rather than make new book.
- some others alredy showed up in various books - bugs, shedims, blood mages, imps (all described in Street Magic), dr Halberstam, dissonants, Frida "Friday" Kohlman.
- oh, there are some new threads - shadow spirits, new AIs and Horizon.

[Heath Robinson]

He is a Mary Sue Plot Device...

That term you use, I don't think it means what you think it means.

[LurkerOutThere]

Thank you for calling that so I didn't have to, Lofwyr and many dragons can be correctly ascribed many derisive insults, but that is not one of them that's accurate.


Frosty and Ryan Mercury on the other hand....

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That term you use, I don't think it means what you think it means.

You are allowed to believe that if you like, but I know what it means, and they are indeed such creatures... they are plot devices, and nothing more... statting them would be an effort in futility... there is absolutely no reason to do so... from my expereince, the first thing that happens when you stat such a creature is that the masses around the world begin to hunt them, because they are now killable... and you cannot argue that they would be unkillable at that point... yes, Greater Dragons have a great deal of power, but the second you codify them, they become "Mortal." Notice how they do not have actual stats for any of the named Greater Dragons (That I am aware of anyways, and definitely not in 4th Edition, though I may have missed a book or two in the previous editions)

And yes, all Great Dragons and Immortal Elves are Mary Sues...

From Your Link...

Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

Seems to me to describe every published (at least in fluff, since I have seen few, if any, actual character stats) greater dragon or immortal elf out there... if they were statted within the normals for player characters, that may make a difference, but since you cannot play a Greater Dragon or Immortal Elf with all of their power (Magic way above 12 and double digit intitate grades, with immortality added alongside for some flavor), it seems pretty obvious that they are not intended for anything else but plot development and player resentment... stereotypical Mary Sue if you ask me... I mean really... Ghostwalker is so powerful that entire nation's military armaments cannot even touch him? Really? Dragons controlling not only AAA rated megacorps but nations? Really?

Bunch of crap...

I like the idea of powerful Dragons with resources so vast that they are, for all intents and purposes, all knowing and all seeing, but call them what they are... they are Mary Sue Characters...

Just sayin'

Keep the Faith

[LurkerOutThere]

Dragons are only killed by sixth world tech in Germany we're not really playing Shadowrun, but Earthdawn the matrix years.

/rant

Having said that Dragon's might be considered a bit Dues Ex Machina more then Mary Sue, YMMV of course.

Also your incorrect Ghostwalker was so powerfull that SIX nations military forces couldn't stop him. I swear everytime I read through DotSW i'm convinced that a lot more authors need to at least see military weaponry in action just once before they'll hand wave things with magic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Dragons are only killed by sixth world tech in Germany we're not really playing Shadowrun, but Earthdawn the matrix years.

/rant

Having said that Dragon's might be considered a bit Dues Ex Machina more then Mary Sue, YMMV of course.

Also your incorrect Ghostwalker was so powerfull that SIX nations military forces couldn't stop him. I swear everytime I read through DotSW i'm convinced that a lot more authors need to at least see military weaponry in action just once before they'll hand wave things with magic.

Which was indeed my point... Military weaponry is a lot more lethal than most people realize, even those who may do a little research... You really have to expereince that first hand or you have no real idea at all...

Keep the Faith

[Dread Moores]

Also your incorrect Ghostwalker was so powerfull that SIX nations military forces couldn't stop him. I swear everytime I read through DotSW i'm convinced that a lot more authors need to at least see military weaponry in action just once before they'll hand wave things with magic.

That part becomes even more comical when you look at the Great Dragon stats in SR3. I seem to remember being spectacularly unimpressed with how easily those lizards fell to military weaponry.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That part becomes even more comical when you look at the Great Dragon stats in SR3. I seem to remember being spectacularly unimpressed with how easily those lizards fell to military weaponry.

Which is also my point... Greater Dragons of Note are NOT given stats for a reason, which fully places them into the Mary Sue Category (or the Deus Ex Machina Category if you like)...

Keep the Faith

[Heath Robinson]

You are allowed to believe that if you like, but I know what it means, and they are indeed such creatures... they are plot devices, and nothing more... statting them would be an effort in futility... there is absolutely no reason to do so... from my expereince, the first thing that happens when you stat such a creature is that the masses around the world begin to hunt them, because they are now killable... and you cannot argue that they would be unkillable at that point... yes, Greater Dragons have a great deal of power, but the second you codify them, they become "Mortal." Notice how they do not have actual stats for any of the named Greater Dragons (That I am aware of anyways, and definitely not in 4th Edition, though I may have missed a book or two in the previous editions)

...

Seems to me to describe every published (at least in fluff, since I have seen few, if any, actual character stats) greater dragon or immortal elf out there... if they were statted within the normals for player characters, that may make a difference, but since you cannot play a Greater Dragon or Immortal Elf with all of their power (Magic way above 12 and double digit intitate grades, with immortality added alongside for some flavor), it seems pretty obvious that they are not intended for anything else but plot development and player resentment... stereotypical Mary Sue if you ask me... I mean really... Ghostwalker is so powerful that entire nation's military armaments cannot even touch him? Really? Dragons controlling not only AAA rated megacorps but nations? Really?

Plot devices are not Mary Sues. Unstatted characters are not Mary Sues. Your arguments relying on those assertions are total bunk. You're also moving the goalposts when you try to bring the other GDs and any IEs into this discussion. Stay on target. We are talking about Lofwyr.

You provide no evidence except 'That's what it looks like to me'. Anything that is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Plot devices are not Mary Sues. Unstatted characters are not Mary Sues. Your arguments relying on those assertions are total bunk. You're also moving the goalposts when you try to bring the other GDs and any IEs into this discussion. Stay on target. We are talking about Lofwyr.

You provide no evidence except 'That's what it looks like to me'. Anything that is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without it.

Lofwyr has no stats that I am aware of... he controls a AAA Megacorp, and for all intents and purposes, Germany as well... he Kills when he wants, does most, if not all things unopposed, and has no contemporary anywhere in his league...

Using the Link that YOU provided (and most would consider as actual EVIDENCE), I show that Lofwyr is INDEED a Mary Sue Character... He is brought out when the authors desire an unkillable, unopposable character, they talk about how powerful he is, and then they send him back into seclusion... on the OFF chance that anyone does stand up to oppose him, He Crushes them... I do not know you interpret that, but that is exactly what the link provided... Ghostwalker is a perfect second example to that... SIX military FOrces from SIX Nations could not oppose him? Really? Bullshit...

Here, let me post it again, because you apparently did not read it, or maybe just misunderstood it...

QUOTE
Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

Now, you may indeed not be offended by the actions of the Great and All Pwerful Lofwyr (and by extension, all of the other Great Dragons, and even the Immortal Elves... any one ever killed Harlequin in Canon... No... I wonder why...), but I am... since at least one person has that feeling, and I know that there are more than just a single person with those feelings, as I have seen others with this same opinion on these boards even, then by the above definition... LOFWYR is a MARY SUE... Now, some people prefer the term Deus Ex Machina... they both provide the same service... How many people were irritated with the Harlequin Adventures, especially when they became bit players in a grander scheme? Not a few, I can guarantee you...

As far as I know, there has never been a Canon Death of an Immortal Elf or Great Dragon perpetrated by others that I am aware of (and if you believe the novels, Dunkelzhan killed himself, so there you go)... and that is crap... the authors are so attached to their creations that they are hesitant, or flat refuse, to kill them off...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[Heath Robinson]

Stay on target. Lofwyr is the character we are discussing. Not Ghostwalker. Not Dunkelzhan. Not Frosty. Lofwyr. You are surely more knowledgable than me of the Shadowrun history, and could cite examples where Lofwyr has been used in such a manner. It can't be that hard for someone who is so passionate about Shadowrun that they write multiple paragraph tirades in response to a 2-3 line post.

Oh, and a definition is not evidence. A definition tells you what a word means. Evidence is an example that demonstrates something. I'm not entirely sure how you could confuse the two.

[Patrick Goodman]

Good Lord, are you guys really having this argument?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Good Lord, are you guys really having this argument?

Apparently...

Stay on target. Lofwyr is the character we are discussing. Not Ghostwalker. Not Dunkelzhan. Not Frosty. Lofwyr. You are surely more knowledgable than me of the Shadowrun history, and could cite examples where Lofwyr has been used in such a manner. It can't be that hard for someone who is so passionate about Shadowrun that they write multiple paragraph tirades in response to a 2-3 line post.

Oh, and a definition is not evidence. A definition tells you what a word means. Evidence is an example that demonstrates something. I'm not entirely sure how you could confuse the two.

If there is an example of a Single Greater Dragon that makes the Example, then they all Make the Example which proves the Definition... I have provided you multiple examples... I know that there are Examples out there for Lofwyr, but do not have access to those books anymore, so I have to use a proxy... Ghostwalker is the easiest Proxy available, followed by Dunkelzhan and then Harlequin and Ehran... since they all fit the descriptions of a Mary Sue... As a result, by Proxy, Lofwyr is also a Mary Sue...

If I am worng, why don't YOU provide the counter proof... Should be pretty easy if I am that wrong, which I do not think I am...

Keep the Faith

[Demonseed Elite]

Mary Sue characters also have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the character is "killable." Or statting for that matter, since it comes to us as a literary term from fiction, where characters don't have stats. Deus Ex Machina is also being inappropriately used here, unless Lofwyr keeps dropping in to solve the protagonists' otherwise-insurmountable problems.

You could argue that Lofwyr is a Mary Sue character if he seems unflawed, too perfectly crafted to the point where readers are unable to sympathize with or humanize him (a strange concept for a great dragon, I know). There are definitely Shadowrun characters that fit this description, though Lofwyr isn't at the top of my list. Neither is Harlequin.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Mary Sue characters also have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the character is "killable." Or statting for that matter, since it comes to us as a literary term from fiction, where characters don't have stats. Deus Ex Machina is also being inappropriately used here, unless Lofwyr keeps dropping in to solve the protagonists' otherwise-insurmountable problems.

You could argue that Lofwyr is a Mary Sue character if he seems unflawed, too perfectly crafted to the point where readers are unable to sympathize or humanize him (a strange concept for a great dragon, I know). There are definitely Shadowrun characters that fit this description, though Lofwyr isn't at the top of my list. Neither is Harlequin.

I agree that there may be characters that come ahead of others, But both Lofwyr and Harlequin are on my list... they are Plot Devices, and for the most part I have no problems with Plot Devices, as they drive the story forward, but I still believe that they will never suffer the ignominy of Death, as they are favored characters, which firmly places them in teh Mary Sue Category... They tend to show up, do awesome things, and then disappear again... I am not arrogant enought to think that I will ever have tehm show up to save.fry my bacon, because my character is not that important, but the fact remains that they are those sacrosanct characters that are used to further the Shadowrun Universe Plotlines, with little to no ewffect ppaced against them, except by other ultra powerful Greater Dragons or Immortal Elves...

just sayin... But I can let it die here...
Thanks for chiming in Demonseed Elite...

Keep the Faith

[Demonseed Elite]

I agree that there may be characters that come ahead of others, But both Lofwyr and Harlequin are on my list... they are Plot Devices, and for the most part I have no problems with Plot Devices, as they drive the story forward, but I still believe that they will never suffer the ignominy of Death, as they are favored characters, which firmly places them in teh Mary Sue Category... They tend to show up, do awesome things, and then disappear again... I am not arrogant enought to think that I will ever have tehm show up to save.fry my bacon, because my character is not that important, but the fact remains that they are those sacrosanct characters that are used to further the Shadowrun Universe Plotlines, with little to no ewffect ppaced against them, except by other ultra powerful Greater Dragons or Immortal Elves...

Whether or not they may ever die isn't a standard of a Mary Sue character. Fiction is absolutely full of characters that will not be killed simply because they serve the story better by being alive. And being a favored character doesn't automatically make a character a Mary Sue either; it's when that character is so favored that they can do no wrong, and have exaggerated mannerisms and skills that make them difficult or impossible to identify with, that's when they are a Mary Sue. When they serve the author more than the story, then you can certainly make a case that they are a Mary Sue.

Lofwyr sometimes borders Mary Sue status, but his arrogance has been a flaw at times. There are humans--without supernatural super-powers or ungodly skills--who have conspired against him (see Dragons of the Sixth World). And they aren't dragon-food yet.

[Patrick Goodman]

Lofwyr sometimes borders Mary Sue status, but his arrogance has been a flaw at times. There are humans--without supernatural super-powers or ungodly skills--who have conspired against him (see Dragons of the Sixth World). And they aren't dragon-food yet.

And many of them won't be; they're pretty sharp on their own. And that's as it should be.

More on my views of great dragonhood later, I suppose.