I know alot of dumpshockers are street level fans. Personally I like to involve my players in deeper darker waters. In first and second edition my games centered on corporate and criminal entanglements. Late in second edition and moving forward I centered my games around more world shaking events and npc's. With 4th edition I've tried to touch all bases both street level and world shaking conspiracy. Even if the players don't realize there shaping world events, they've still been involved. So that brings me back to the thought which caused me to post the topic.

Has there ever been an update to "Threats" proposed for 4th edition? Is there a need/want in the community at large for an "Other Power Players" source book? What would you as a GM or player would you like to see updated/added?

As a side note who's your favorite villain not affiliated with a Corporate or Orgainized Crime source? Who do your players love to hate?

I am like you, PM, I prefer to get away from the street-level action and embroil the PCs in world shaking events - it stems from my perference of heroics. A new Threats book could be nice, but I think they have enough going on right now just to get the books they have planned out. Oh well.

Something for you to look into is Dark Conspiracy from GDW. I incorporate a bit of that setting, mixing it with the Horrors from Earthdawn. Of course, a bit of work is needed to make it fit as it was created in the early 90's and set around 2008, so there is not nearly the amount of technology in DC as there is in SR that needs to be taken into consideration.

I'd be very happy to see an updated Threats and Loose Alliances type books. I thought both of those were pretty useful in 3rd edition (well, technically Threats 2 in 3rd).

I'm certainly not advocating putting more on an already crowded plate at the moment for the SR folks. But NPC stats of varying degrees and some plot point threats are both things I definitely would use/have used. Maybe somewhere down the road.

Edit: One of my favorite threats from the past and one I've used as a behind the scenes mover and shaker is the Black Lodge.

There are plenty of magical threats, to use as a scalpel or a sledgehammer as the case may warrants, but some people like Art Dankwalther would be nice. A good, mundane nutter who can do (nearly) anything someone like Lofwyr can with an obscene bankaccount and testicles the size of grapefruits.

Oh, and Harlequin. Whoever came up with that idea needs a serious arse-kicking.

I wanna see Lofwyr's official stats!

Why? He is a Mary Sue Plot Device... They don't need official stats...

Keep the Faith

It would be interesting to see a Fourth Edition update for previously-published Threats. Some of them had stories that wrapped up, but others are just sort of hanging on doing who-knows-what. For new Fourth Edition players, many of these groups would be brand new, and for old-timers it would update them and make them more relevant in the 2070s.

I'm not sure we really need new book... New Threats would probably make a mess in 6th World (it's alredy crowded, like Prime Mover said) or just double the older books. Let's see:
- dragons, Human Nation, KSAF are still around; also all those secret societes like Black Lodge or Templars (hey, they are secret! Be happy that you just heard of them!). I think it would be better to put them in some other supplements (6th World Almanach, maybe?) or adventures rather than make new book.
- some others alredy showed up in various books - bugs, shedims, blood mages, imps (all described in Street Magic), dr Halberstam, dissonants, Frida "Friday" Kohlman.
- oh, there are some new threads - shadow spirits, new AIs and Horizon.

That term you use, I don't think it means what you think it means.

Thank you for calling that so I didn't have to, Lofwyr and many dragons can be correctly ascribed many derisive insults, but that is not one of them that's accurate.


Frosty and Ryan Mercury on the other hand....

You are allowed to believe that if you like, but I know what it means, and they are indeed such creatures... they are plot devices, and nothing more... statting them would be an effort in futility... there is absolutely no reason to do so... from my expereince, the first thing that happens when you stat such a creature is that the masses around the world begin to hunt them, because they are now killable... and you cannot argue that they would be unkillable at that point... yes, Greater Dragons have a great deal of power, but the second you codify them, they become "Mortal." Notice how they do not have actual stats for any of the named Greater Dragons (That I am aware of anyways, and definitely not in 4th Edition, though I may have missed a book or two in the previous editions)

And yes, all Great Dragons and Immortal Elves are Mary Sues...

From Your Link...



Seems to me to describe every published (at least in fluff, since I have seen few, if any, actual character stats) greater dragon or immortal elf out there... if they were statted within the normals for player characters, that may make a difference, but since you cannot play a Greater Dragon or Immortal Elf with all of their power (Magic way above 12 and double digit intitate grades, with immortality added alongside for some flavor), it seems pretty obvious that they are not intended for anything else but plot development and player resentment... stereotypical Mary Sue if you ask me... I mean really... Ghostwalker is so powerful that entire nation's military armaments cannot even touch him? Really? Dragons controlling not only AAA rated megacorps but nations? Really?

Bunch of crap...

I like the idea of powerful Dragons with resources so vast that they are, for all intents and purposes, all knowing and all seeing, but call them what they are... they are Mary Sue Characters...

Just sayin'

Keep the Faith

Dragons are only killed by sixth world tech in Germany we're not really playing Shadowrun, but Earthdawn the matrix years.

/rant

Having said that Dragon's might be considered a bit Dues Ex Machina more then Mary Sue, YMMV of course.

Also your incorrect Ghostwalker was so powerfull that SIX nations military forces couldn't stop him. I swear everytime I read through DotSW i'm convinced that a lot more authors need to at least see military weaponry in action just once before they'll hand wave things with magic.

Which was indeed my point... Military weaponry is a lot more lethal than most people realize, even those who may do a little research... You really have to expereince that first hand or you have no real idea at all...

Keep the Faith

That part becomes even more comical when you look at the Great Dragon stats in SR3. I seem to remember being spectacularly unimpressed with how easily those lizards fell to military weaponry.

Which is also my point... Greater Dragons of Note are NOT given stats for a reason, which fully places them into the Mary Sue Category (or the Deus Ex Machina Category if you like)...

Keep the Faith

Plot devices are not Mary Sues. Unstatted characters are not Mary Sues. Your arguments relying on those assertions are total bunk. You're also moving the goalposts when you try to bring the other GDs and any IEs into this discussion. Stay on target. We are talking about Lofwyr.

You provide no evidence except 'That's what it looks like to me'. Anything that is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without it.

Lofwyr has no stats that I am aware of... he controls a AAA Megacorp, and for all intents and purposes, Germany as well... he Kills when he wants, does most, if not all things unopposed, and has no contemporary anywhere in his league...

Using the Link that YOU provided (and most would consider as actual EVIDENCE), I show that Lofwyr is INDEED a Mary Sue Character... He is brought out when the authors desire an unkillable, unopposable character, they talk about how powerful he is, and then they send him back into seclusion... on the OFF chance that anyone does stand up to oppose him, He Crushes them... I do not know you interpret that, but that is exactly what the link provided... Ghostwalker is a perfect second example to that... SIX military FOrces from SIX Nations could not oppose him? Really? Bullshit...

Here, let me post it again, because you apparently did not read it, or maybe just misunderstood it...



Now, you may indeed not be offended by the actions of the Great and All Pwerful Lofwyr (and by extension, all of the other Great Dragons, and even the Immortal Elves... any one ever killed Harlequin in Canon... No... I wonder why...), but I am... since at least one person has that feeling, and I know that there are more than just a single person with those feelings, as I have seen others with this same opinion on these boards even, then by the above definition... LOFWYR is a MARY SUE... Now, some people prefer the term Deus Ex Machina... they both provide the same service... How many people were irritated with the Harlequin Adventures, especially when they became bit players in a grander scheme? Not a few, I can guarantee you...

As far as I know, there has never been a Canon Death of an Immortal Elf or Great Dragon perpetrated by others that I am aware of (and if you believe the novels, Dunkelzhan killed himself, so there you go)... and that is crap... the authors are so attached to their creations that they are hesitant, or flat refuse, to kill them off...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Stay on target. Lofwyr is the character we are discussing. Not Ghostwalker. Not Dunkelzhan. Not Frosty. Lofwyr. You are surely more knowledgable than me of the Shadowrun history, and could cite examples where Lofwyr has been used in such a manner. It can't be that hard for someone who is so passionate about Shadowrun that they write multiple paragraph tirades in response to a 2-3 line post.

Oh, and a definition is not evidence. A definition tells you what a word means. Evidence is an example that demonstrates something. I'm not entirely sure how you could confuse the two.

Good Lord, are you guys really having this argument?

Apparently...



If there is an example of a Single Greater Dragon that makes the Example, then they all Make the Example which proves the Definition... I have provided you multiple examples... I know that there are Examples out there for Lofwyr, but do not have access to those books anymore, so I have to use a proxy... Ghostwalker is the easiest Proxy available, followed by Dunkelzhan and then Harlequin and Ehran... since they all fit the descriptions of a Mary Sue... As a result, by Proxy, Lofwyr is also a Mary Sue...

If I am worng, why don't YOU provide the counter proof... Should be pretty easy if I am that wrong, which I do not think I am...

Keep the Faith

Mary Sue characters also have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the character is "killable." Or statting for that matter, since it comes to us as a literary term from fiction, where characters don't have stats. Deus Ex Machina is also being inappropriately used here, unless Lofwyr keeps dropping in to solve the protagonists' otherwise-insurmountable problems.

You could argue that Lofwyr is a Mary Sue character if he seems unflawed, too perfectly crafted to the point where readers are unable to sympathize with or humanize him (a strange concept for a great dragon, I know). There are definitely Shadowrun characters that fit this description, though Lofwyr isn't at the top of my list. Neither is Harlequin.

I agree that there may be characters that come ahead of others, But both Lofwyr and Harlequin are on my list... they are Plot Devices, and for the most part I have no problems with Plot Devices, as they drive the story forward, but I still believe that they will never suffer the ignominy of Death, as they are favored characters, which firmly places them in teh Mary Sue Category... They tend to show up, do awesome things, and then disappear again... I am not arrogant enought to think that I will ever have tehm show up to save.fry my bacon, because my character is not that important, but the fact remains that they are those sacrosanct characters that are used to further the Shadowrun Universe Plotlines, with little to no ewffect ppaced against them, except by other ultra powerful Greater Dragons or Immortal Elves...

just sayin... But I can let it die here...
Thanks for chiming in Demonseed Elite...

Keep the Faith

Whether or not they may ever die isn't a standard of a Mary Sue character. Fiction is absolutely full of characters that will not be killed simply because they serve the story better by being alive. And being a favored character doesn't automatically make a character a Mary Sue either; it's when that character is so favored that they can do no wrong, and have exaggerated mannerisms and skills that make them difficult or impossible to identify with, that's when they are a Mary Sue. When they serve the author more than the story, then you can certainly make a case that they are a Mary Sue.

Lofwyr sometimes borders Mary Sue status, but his arrogance has been a flaw at times. There are humans--without supernatural super-powers or ungodly skills--who have conspired against him (see Dragons of the Sixth World). And they aren't dragon-food yet.

And many of them won't be; they're pretty sharp on their own. And that's as it should be.

More on my views of great dragonhood later, I suppose.

I think the point of contention is the difference between a plot device and a Mary Sue character. If a dragon could be considered an actual character, it could arguably be considered a Mary Sue. But Lofwyr (and other dragons) seems more like a story element, almost a force of nature in the SR setting, rather than a fully developed character. Novels aren't written that feature Lofwyr doing everything better than everyone, never failing, everyone wants to sleep with him, and otherwise being someone's idealized alter-ego -- ala Anita Blake, Elminster from Forgotten Realms, Horatio Caine from CSI: Miami, Wesley Crusher, etc. So I'm not sure "Mary Sue" is appropriate. But ultimately I guess it depends on how you define the term.

I don't mind greater dragons being deus ex machina characters. But it does seem odd how they and certain other elements seem to be handled unrealistically (even for SR!). I think in the absence of AC -10 plus 20 Hit Dice or MDC, military hardware could very well take down a dragon or a group of Native American magicians. The best I can figure is that the military had no idea what they were facing when magic first erupted; these people leaving the reeducation center were doing things that just weren't possible, and a dragon in the skies is certainly a sign of Armageddon; low morale and confusion reduced their effectiveness. Another thing is that magic may have surged when it first appeared, making those that used it far more powerful than they should be -- similar how water pressure will cause it to explode when it first bursts through a barrier, though the water flow quickly attains an equilibrium. Even taking all this into account, you kinda hafta shrug and accept them as part of the setting's historical metaplot. (Just like you have to accept there were enough Native Americans left to form all these nations.)

Double post, sorry.

Actually Lofwyr is a character more then many, you get inside his head or see his actions from first or third person "real time" on more then a few occasions in the novels and in books like System Failure. Whether he's a Mary Sue (which personally I don't think he is but I see where TJ's thought processes come from) is not invalidated by him being a dragon or a plot element. Sinna the poet and Julius Ceasar exist in the same play, but they have power levels of such difference that Ceasar might as well be a dragon.

Exactly. I'd put Ryan Mercury down as a Mary Sue character, because he does fit with the examples you mentioned. He's far more the archetype of a Mary Sue character than Lofwyr.



To be fair, Lofwyr doesn't go flying around picking fights, possibly because he knows that doing so might get him killed. He runs a AAA corporation instead, which makes him a much more difficult target to take down.

If some other character is a Mary Sue, then anyone that can be connected to them by your twisted free association game is also a Mary Sue? If your brother commits a crime, does that make you a criminal?


You made a positive claim, the burden of proof is on you. "Innocent until proven guilty".

Edit: I was wrong, removed my answer to Patrick.

If you were there and you did not stop him.. then yes, you become an accomplice, even if you are unaware of what actually transpired... at least in the American Legal System...

Semantics aside though... My opinion matters to me, and in that regard, I see certain aspects of the game that portray a certain feel (The Idea that Great Dragons and Immortal Elves are Mary Sue Characters are one such idea). Since we have not YET, in 20 Years, seen an actual death of a Great Dragon or Immortal Elf at the hands of a Protagonist, makes my point, at least for now. The Authors have not, and will not, kill off entities like Lofwyr or Harlequin, because they make such outstanding Plot Devices (I mean really, tehy are Dragons and Immortal Elves after all)... their unwillingness to off the character places those characters into a favored status, resulting in my designating them as Mary Sue Characters... at least in my opinion... Maybe when I see an important character, a beloved character, get offed, I may change my mind... and you are right, there are plenty of "Mortal" characters that fit the description in Shadowrun of Mary Sue Characters, a lot of them are even Human... However, I was referring to those charcters that have existed since the 4th Age (or even before)... they just bother me...

You don't have to agree with me, you just have to realize that I am entitled to my opinion...

At this point, there is no longer a need to go back and forth on this topic, since I apparenlty will not convince you of this, nor will you convince me... Okay with me though... I have had fun...

Keep the Faith

I think the Dragonheart Trilogy screwed up a perfectly amazing plotline. The assassination of Dunkelzahn was so much more interesting and scary when everyone was trying to figure out who could have pulled it off. Then the novels came out and presented this rather ridiculous premise that Dunkelzahn staged his death to sacrifice himself to save the world (couldn't he have done that without taking a few Secret Service agents into the afterlife with him?). And of course, it's the same trilogy that introduced us to my favorite real Mary Sue: Ryan Mercury.

The writers discussed offing great dragons or immortal elves quite often, actually. But no one wanted to make a book that seemed like its purpose was solely to off a great dragon or immortal elf. Especially since Portfolio of a Dragon already did the former. And because they are such larger-than-life characters, it's hard to place any of them in a storyline where they would get killed without making it seem all about them.

Because I demand to be able to have my character officially throw down with him and get smeared and have actual real dice rolls based off of official stats involved! "Plot devices" without stats piss me off. Major epic cop out!

Makes sense, and I agree... Personally I think that they should be killable myself, but since they have no stats, well, there you go...

Keep the Faith

It's actually a two-fold offense for me. First, like you said, the assassination was much stronger when everything was possible. Who would have risked killing off a Great? Who had the resources? And a President?

Then we get the novels (and I'll not talk about Ryan Mercury or RBNs, as that's been covered enough in the past). And from a very macro view, it has a solid core of idea that has the potential to deliver well. Let's cut away from the Earthdawn links some, let's some of the Oscuro/Aztlan/Cabal storyline, let's keep the Horrors back for quite a while, and give the SR metaplot a fresh place to go from. Acknowledge the links of the past to ED and such, but move ahead and use those great Findley-Dowd-and-all-the-rest story lines from SR1 and 2 to move forward. And let's do this all with a huge bang: the death of Dunkie. Unfortunately at the micro level, it got tied in with a silly kid-cyberzombie and all the rest. That series annoyed me more because it felt like two wasted opportunities. You had the awesome of the in-game mystery of Dunkie's death wasted, and then the potential of a great pushing forward event out of SR1/2s metaplot and past into future story lines. Had this second part occurred in those novels, I actually think SR3 and the metaplot it could have held would have been a whole lot more interesting. I'd be curious where things would have been today in terms of metaplot had those things happened. The Dragonheart trilogy was actually a huge turning point that turned me off of SR for quite a bit.

This thread is about "Threats SR4 style", not about Mary Sues, GD and how to kill them. So please back to topic.

Lofwyr's a threat...

Seriously, I would like to see a great dragon threat plotted out. Sirrurg is the one I'd really like to see. It would have to be told by someone who knows him from long, long ago and has decided that he's become too much of a danger to him and his interests, perhaps even expecting to be killed soon anyway so he posts it.

For threats, I still like Blackjack's NPCs from Hell and some of his locations, wierd, crazy, spooky stuff. Also you have the Drop Bear conspiracy what more could you want?

I just bought the pdf of the old SR2 Threats book, and looking at it and some of the things posted in some of the newest books, like Ghost Cartels and Vice, I guess it's worth remembering what that book said about true threats: In addition to wielding global power, effective threats should work on multiple levels....Finally, a true threat can never be defeated. Lofwyr is possibly a good example; despite being around since SR1, he's still going strong. Maybe the immortal elves. But I was wondering which threats were still kicking and were of real importance of pursuing, like the Black Lodge, Atlantean conspiracy, New Templars, Vampire Conspiracy, A20K and Human Nation. I guess these and others fulfill that idea that they can't be truly defeated. That was a flaw with the re-unifiers or even the blood mage conspiracies or the network; they had definitive ends.

So, looking at that and getting back to the original topic, what are some SR4 type threats? Remember, they're supposed to be fanatical ideas, like maybe aggressive transhumanists who are the newest backers and spreaders of cybermancy, or perhaps a re-apprisal of the old Bugs threat.

Actually, after reading Threats, how come Street Magic or Running Wild didn't deal with Tutor? It seems to me that he/she/it would be a serious on-going threat, especially with the rise of imps or other more hostile spirits.

Don

Personally I think that most of GD's power comes from their wiliness... If somebody wants to try to geek one of them, the wizworm will probably know about it very soon. And he'll be ready.
Besides, I don't believe that any of them would act in a fight as a flying & flame-throwing shooting target... With Magic 12 and at least 2 IP they can do many interesting things - like casting F 12 - 24 Armor spell (+ 12 Hardened Armor + 22 to 25 Body), summoning F 12 spirits or just use Ritual Spellcasting on a "dangerous" metahuman ("Lofwyr sends his regards and he hopes You will enjoy this F 20 Powerball.... BOOOM!!!").
OK, that last idea is broken and stupid

For me, GDs shouldn't have stats. If GM doesn't want to let PCs to kill them, at least. More fun this way, I think.

Forgive my ignorance, but I've only been catching up on the metaplot for about a year now and I don't have access to many pre-SR4 publications. KSAF is a threat? I thought they were just a trid newsnet that used to get tipoffs from Big D.

They appeared in the Threats book because they fit into the "cabals with secret agendas" theme, but they are not actually a threat. That is, unless their next story involves your skeleton closet


@Topic: Ther certainly are a lot of threats/conspiracies which have been hinted at in the last couple of years, so a hypothetical Threats III would not have to invent anything new, just flesh out a few existing ones...and by "flesh out" I mean "give some information which makes them playable, but don't drag them into the light too much". A few off the top of my head:
- Horizon and their "Consensus". AI cabal? Bugs who have coupled their hive mind with high tech?
- The empowerement coalition. A bloody mantis spirit gang, right at the positions of power in the UCAS.
- Ex pacis and the mystery of Puck's disappearance
- Evo's Mars base and all the other stuff that's gong on there

I'm not sure how secret or threat-like the Mars base is; it's not like Ares' black project in Threats 2. I agree with Ex Pacis; I can see the in-game file on that being a dead man's letter from Puck to the rest of the shadow community. I'd like to see what happened with the Blood Magic Gestalt, although I'm assuming they've been driven deep underground. Like I said, there's a few things worth looking at from the old Threats books which might need to be updated. Another group like KSAF, the "benevolent threat" might also be on the agenda. Maybe that might be the secret behind the Horizon group?

I'd also agree that the Empowerment Coalition might be an interesting update to the Bugs threat of SR2 and Threats.

Don

Puck is dead?
Source please.

Puck is currently MIA, that usually doesn't go too well for folks in the SR universe of course one of these days Nadja Daviar si going to show up again.

MIA is my current status for him/her as well, as per the Unwired shadow talk. And I've been curious ever since.

Originally I thought she went missing during the New Revolutions actions during system failure and was presumed dead but someone on the writing staff didn't get the memo so when she showed up again afterwards it kind of put her at loose ends. A permanent president of the UCAS (not to mention her role as Chairman of the Draco foundation and a major shareholder of Ares) made pretty much an impossible character to write before we even dig into issues with her dusky brown nipples.

I wouldn't lament it coming up in one of the books someone finding her and Ryan Mercury's bones in a shallow grave somewhere in the eastern united states as long as her body isn't accounted for she's almost certain to come back, which would be really really hard to handle well. It actually might be something good to explore in a future threats book.

The Tempalars are still going strong and could do with a rehash. They are still an active threat so are the bugs. Then there's Horizon a AAA corp with a way to good an image both publicly and in the shadows and we know they have some nasty secrets they are hiding. Then theres the many other possible threats to cover in a bit more detail.

There are dragon skeletons and pyramids on Mars, and have been since before the awakening. Now Evo has been able to build an outpost on Mars (while both the secret and the official first landing on Mars suffered strange...accidents) and are busy greening it, which has little uses I can think of except creating a manasphere...

OK, it could be something different, but it would make a nice starting point for a sinister conspiracy. And I always wanted some new info about the strange things on Mars.

I didn't mean to confuse; I thought that if there were a 4th ed Ex Pacis threat, then the best shadowdocument would be a dead-letter from Puck. Just an idea of how to present the material, in my opinion.

Don