I don't understand something about Hackers.... Options

[CrowOfPyke]

Near as I can tell, when tooling around in AR and VR, using your skills and programs and such, you do *not* add your Logic Attribute rating to your dice pool. You only get your skill rating+program rating.

If this is true, I don't "get it". Why ever bother with a high Logic score? Why not just take a Logic of 1, skills at 6 and programs at 6 and be all "Lookame!! I iz 1337 hackzors even though I iz not smartz!!! Weeeeeee!!!...."

That seems silly to me, so perhaps I am misreading the SR4 rulebook. Seems to make more sense if it is Logic+skill rating+program rating... but again, I am puzzled for a clear answer on this one.

Thanks for the help!!

[hobgoblin]

see optional rules, unwired.

[eidolon]

You've just stumbled across the reason a lot of people use a house rule of Attribute + Skill, with hits limited to the rating of the program.

edit:
Oh yeah, forgot they made that "official optional."

[CrowOfPyke]

You've just stumbled across the reason a lot of people use a house rule of Attribute + Skill, with hits limited to the rating of the program.

edit:
Oh yeah, forgot they made that "official optional."

Huh? What does "official optional" mean?

Also, the guy above said "see the unwired optional rules" but neglected to say where to look or reference a page number. Any idea what he is talking about?

I am also curious how this would be played in an official SRM game....

[CanRay]

Huh? What does "official optional" mean?

As opposed to "Unofficial Optional", as in "House Rule".

I might use this... Problem is, then it's next to impossible to hack Admin rights to a system, which is needed for some 'Runs.

Of course, my group's hacker just did that for UCAS Customs and made himself (Well, one of his fake SINs) a Customs Agent at the Warehouse in Seattle.

[Deadmannumberone]

The optional rule is on pg. 39 of Unwired. You can use either Skill+Attribute, limiting hits to Program rating, or Skill+Program, limiting hits to Attribute rating.

I might use this... Problem is, then it's next to impossible to hack Admin rights to a system, which is needed for some 'Runs.

Perhaps a limit of INT+LOG?

[Thanee]

The +3 and +6 threshold increase is for an extended test (so no problem with not being able to get enough hits).

Even without the optional rule, while Logic isn't really needed inside the Matrix, it is very useful still for the skills a hacker-type is typically going to have.

Bye
Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The +3 and +6 threshold increase is for an extended test (so no problem with not being able to get enough hits).

Bye
Thanee

Indeed, it is not something that has to be accomplished on a single roll of the dice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[AStarshipforAnts]

With extended tests, the only thing really holding hackers back is time. You can crack a system that needs 20 hits, it's just going to take your hacker a few days. Or weeks.

[hobgoblin]

Also, the guy above said "see the unwired optional rules" but neglected to say where to look or reference a page number. Any idea what he is talking about?

is it really that hard to crack open the book and check the content listing?
(i know a page number have been given, i just wonder)

[CanRay]

With extended tests, the only thing really holding hackers back is time. You can crack a system that needs 20 hits, it's just going to take your hacker a few days. Or weeks.

Right, right. Sorry, brain fart. And it was a wet one.

[suoq]

is it really that hard to crack open the book and check the content listing?

I do searches in Adobe since I have the books in PDF and half the time I still can't figure out what rule people are talking about. For example "Attack of Will" pretty much requires a search in Adobe to find. It's not in the contents. It's not in the index. And it's not trivial. The players, especially the very players least likely to read the book it's in because it has nothing to do with their character, should know it exists. If I didn't have digital copies, I never would have found that dang rule. And for Technomancers, that rule is pure gold. A 0 BP attack based on your firewall with a DV based on your Biofeedback filter that bypasses the spirit’s Immunity to Normal Weapons. Woot!

[CrowOfPyke]

is it really that hard to crack open the book and check the content listing?
(i know a page number have been given, i just wonder)

Typically it is good Netiquette to give people a page number when referring to or quoting rules. Otherwise, you aren't really answering the question or being helpful. It seems that wasn't your intent (being unhelpful), so no worries.

As for the Page 39 optional rules... Blech. All it does it give you options for applying limits. Lame. So instead of giving people a bonus for investing in Logic, all you are doing is penalizing those with a low Logic. Blech.

And even though those rules on Page 39 are okay for "official use" the GM and/or the player(s) don't have to use them. So you are right back at square 1 where you can just invest in skill rating of 6 and program rating of 6 and be all "lookame! i iz 1337 haxorz even though i iz not smartz!".... Sigh. I had hoped the Matrix/hacking rules had improved or been fixed in SR4, but alas... they are not.

Oh wells. EVERYONE IS A HACKER!! PARTY TIME!

[MortVent]

Typically it is good Netiquette to give people a page number when referring to or quoting rules. Otherwise, you aren't really answering the question or being helpful. It seems that wasn't your intent (being unhelpful), so no worries.

As for the Page 39 optional rules... Blech. All it does it give you options for applying limits. Lame. So instead of giving people a bonus for investing in Logic, all you are doing is penalizing those with a low Logic. Blech.

And even though those rules on Page 39 are okay for "official use" the GM and/or the player(s) don't have to use them. So you are right back at square 1 where you can just invest in skill rating of 6 and program rating of 6 and be all "lookame! i iz 1337 haxorz even though i iz not smartz!".... Sigh. I had hoped the Matrix/hacking rules had improved or been fixed in SR4, but alas... they are not.

Oh wells. EVERYONE IS A HACKER!! PARTY TIME!

The last is the key part... most of the game has been altered into makign everyone part of the meat team vs someone sitting offsite and working with a team.

So you got to have the combat skills and intrusion skills... so better anyone can be a hacker than have gimped hackers wanting to stay home and remote in

[CrowOfPyke]

The last is the key part... most of the game has been altered into makign everyone part of the meat team vs someone sitting offsite and working with a team.

So you got to have the combat skills and intrusion skills... so better anyone can be a hacker than have gimped hackers wanting to stay home and remote in

Right, and that part makes sense. Give everyone a chance to be involved - it does help break one of the problems with the older versions of SR (party splitting while some players just sit around).

However, if you use the optional rules (page 39 unwired) that are okay for official use, all you do is penalize players with either a low Logic score or a low skill rating. That is a pain in the ass to track as a GM and I would never use it: "Uhh... wait, your Logic score is what again? Limits your successes to what again?...." That is a *terrible* optional rule. Blech! And it also means, that once again, you will have some players sitting around BORED at the table while another group plays on. Lame.

But if you just let people add their Logic scores in it does TWO very good things: One, it still lets people with Logic scores jump in and contribute without penalizing them. Which keeps everyone at the table involved. And Two, it gives a pretty nice bonus to those players who do invest in being a "1337 haxorz" by allowing the full use of their Attribute+Skill+Program. Everyone still gets to play and contribute (no one at the table sits around bored), but also leaves room for the players who want to specialize in being a Hacker.

Sigh. Why this was left out or run over in SR4 I don't understand....

This post has been edited by CrowOfPyke: Jul 31 2010, 11:08 PM