Two weapon fighting confusion, Why would you bother? Options

[Nerdynick]

Something my friends and I have been puzzled about for a while is why would someone bother using two weapons? From my interpretation of the rules (which may not be entirely accurate), two pistols requires you to split your dicepool in half and removes any bonus you get from laser sights/smartlinks. So you're pumping out double the shots at less than half the accuracy?

For melee weapons, your target has a slight dice pool penalty and you gain a slight bonus to melee defense (unless you have the two weapon fighting maneuver, in which case it becomes a rather substantial bonus to melee defense).

And on top of those, you get an off hand penalty unless you're ambidextrous.

Both of these seem fairly underwhelming to me, so what is the real bonus to fighting with two weapons, aside from style?

[Critias]

If you've got a monstrously huge die pool (like a gunslinger Adept might, let's say), and you're shooting at baddies without monstrously huge dodge pools, it can be worth it to go the two-pistol route. Remember that every dodge attempt lowers dodge/reaction pools by one, and you can eventually overwhelm an attacker by pouring multiple shots at them...*shrugs*

Is it awesome? Nope. But, then, it shouldn't be, or every cop would have two guns on his belt.

[Raiki]

Well, you don't actually have to split your dice pool in half. You can split it however you want, so long as each pool has at least 1 die. And that's not always so bad. If your average runner is fighting a professional level 1 ganger, even rolling the 5 or 6 dice that splitting your pool would give is going to be enough. You may not get many net hits, but then again the ganger's soak pool isn't going to be all that fantastic either.

It's a mixed bag really, though dual-weilding versus high defense targets seems like a bad idea.



Just my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .



Edit: Damn! Ninja everywhere! I'm surrounded! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

~R~

[Ramorta]

Also to point out, things like specalizations get added AFTER you split the dice pool. So someone with 3 pistols (+2 semi-automatics) and 3 agility. With a dicepool of 6 (+2 specalization) before the split. Designate 3 dice to each hand, +2 for your specalization is 5 dice. I'd call that a decent tradeoff. (Taking into account having ambidexterity)

Another reason would be increased ammo capacity. Having a spair clip already loaded into your gun never hurt anybody.

[Medicineman]

Also to point out, things like specalizations get added AFTER you split the dice pool.
Right, but the Yin to this Yang is that every negative Mod is also added After splitting the Pool (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Akimbo Shooting is a mixed blessing ,I like it,some of my Chars have it(the Real Fun comes with 4 Guns (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) and its OK for them, but its not for every Char and certainly not for every situation,but you'r more flexible .....and it's better to have and need not than need and have not

With a YinYang Dance
Medicineman

[Glyph]

When you have a high dice pool and don't need all of it, then splitting it in order to take out more enemies is a valid tactical decision. Wielding two weapons also lets you switch between different types of ammo or damage easily, or, if you have a ranged weapon in one hand and a melee weapon in the other hand, switch between close combat and ranged combat.

I don't really mind it being an occasionally useful niche tactic, because otherwise everyone would use it, all of the time. I remember AD&D, when the rules for two-weapon styles came out, and it seemed like every single fighter was a dual-wielder.

[Mayhem_2006]

Another oft overlooked reason for using 2 weapons ambidextrously is that you can fire a short burst from one using a simple action and then a short burst from the other using the other simple action you get in the same turn, with lower recoil penalties than you would get for firing 2 short bursts from 1 weapon.

Doing it that way, you get your full dice pool and keep your smartlink bonuses.

And effectively double your ammo, of course.

[Mäx]

Also if you have guns with lots of RC you can use wide burst to give the opponent(s) a nice negative to their dodge pool, giving you a better chance to score some nethits even with your split pool.
Or you can just use 2 guns with less RC and just shoot them one after the other, essentially doubling your ammo capacity and RC compared to just using one gun.

[Shinobi Killfist]

When you have a high dice pool and don't need all of it, then splitting it in order to take out more enemies is a valid tactical decision. Wielding two weapons also lets you switch between different types of ammo or damage easily, or, if you have a ranged weapon in one hand and a melee weapon in the other hand, switch between close combat and ranged combat.

I don't really mind it being an occasionally useful niche tactic, because otherwise everyone would use it, all of the time. I remember AD&D, when the rules for two-weapon styles came out, and it seemed like every single fighter was a dual-wielder.

I like it to be a valid choice, which is almost is now.

Oh in AD&D two weapon fighting was cool if you had a high dex. It was -4 to your attacks but you reaction bonus canceled it, so a 18 dex put you at an extra attack and no penalty. Or just be a drow and they got no penalty no matter what their dex was. I think 2e had the same rules but no perk for being a drow.

[Udoshi]

The main benefit to fighting two-weapon style is fighting pirate style: Sword+Gun, with two-weapon defense and a melee hardened pistol.
Its also worth noting that melee weapons can just flat out multihit melee targets by splitting the dice pool without resorting to double wielding.

Since penalties and bonuses come after the split, it can be good thing or a bad thing. If you plan on akimbo fighting, then you just need to stack your bonuses and eliminate penalties as usual. All it does is get rid of laser sight/smartlink bonuses - all other bonuses stay intact. Tacnets, for example, or tracer rounds(if you have decent compensation) while using an Improved Rangefinder(or the hawkeye quality, or both) saves you a dice at medium range. I don't care what the FAQ says, about pool splitting and specializations, its wrong, and contradicts the anniversary edition, so there's that too.
Don't forget that subsequent defenses carry a -1 per defense penalty, and a two-gun user can put out 4 shots per pass. If they all hit, the last shot has a pretty hefty defense penalty, and short wide bursting just makes it worse.

Like anything in shadowrun, two gunning is good if you specialize/focus on it. For two-gunning, you have to do it slightly differently: Focus on getting rid of or reducing the penalties, because there's not a lot of bonuses to be had.

That being said, gunslinger adepts are pretty awesome, and the classic gunslinger spam-arai are pretty good(two cyberarms, gyromounts, high velocity smgs with gasvents, tracer rounds, and long bursts everywhere).
If you really want, you can make a double Shiva Arms Troll(okay, it would probably be a fomori) using the arsenal advanced combat options for wielding big weapons, using 6 shotguns on wide burst wide choke to just obliterate any defenders dice pool at close range.
You're welcome for that mental image.

[Neurosis]

It is not ineffective enough to outweigh how cool it is.

[Yerameyahu]

Or how wannabe it looks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Freaking John Woo…

[Makki]

like a gunslinger Adept might

Adepts can also negate negativ modifiers with Adept Centering. Dual wielding makes this metamagic practically double effective.

[IKerensky]

Only benefit I see is to have different munition/weapon setting on each gun and in fact using only one at a time while having both draw.

If you really want to shoot and use both your hands there is plenty of better option than using dual guns (assault rifle by example).

[IKerensky]

Another oft overlooked reason for using 2 weapons ambidextrously is that you can fire a short burst from one using a simple action and then a short burst from the other using the other simple action you get in the same turn, with lower recoil penalties than you would get for firing 2 short bursts from 1 weapon.

Doing it that way, you get your full dice pool and keep your smartlink bonuses.

And effectively double your ammo, of course.

Overlooked because not in my rulebook or RAI, a character wont get any benefit from using 2 weapons to shoot his short burst rather than twice 1 weapon.

As far as I recall the rules, it say the penalty is by bullet shot after the first in the round, I dont recall it specificating with the same gun.

[Wulffyre]

Overlooked because not in my rulebook or RAI, a character wont get any benefit from using 2 weapons to shoot his short burst rather than twice 1 weapon.

As far as I recall the rules, it say the penalty is by bullet shot after the first in the round, I dont recall it specificating with the same gun.

You can't exactly say that this isn't RAI, because quite frankly, if you do shoot one gun after the other, you suffer less recoil. (Assuming a base level of shooting ability and strength etc)

[capt.pantsless]

You can also double your rate-of-fire - e.g. have a Ruger Super Warhawk in each hand and fire them independently, one in each simple action. You still get to keep your whole dice-pool, plus you get the super-manly 6P damage.

[IKerensky]

I was refering to my RAI (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And I really fail to see how you suffer less recoil by shooting the weapon one after the other, RAI or otherwise.

[Wulffyre]

I was refering to my RAI (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And I really fail to see how you suffer less recoil by shooting the weapon one after the other, RAI or otherwise.

My fault then for misinterpreting

But generally, you do suffer less recoil.

Assuming you have a pistol in both hands, the recoil of one hand will, if even, barely affect your other hand, because Pistolrecoil is usally manageable, unless we talk about absurdly high caliber (i.e .50 or .444). So practically you absorb most of the recoil with your arm and shoulder and that leaves your other arm relatively stable for another shot. (Naturally this does take training, but any runner that dual wields, would have sufficient enough training to do so effectively)

[capt.pantsless]

Naturally this does take training, but any runner that dual wields, would have sufficient enough training to do so effectively

I'd generally argue that anything that 'takes training' is something that will reduce one's dice-pool. Doing something hard reduces die-pools or increases thresholds. Training is represented by having big die pools. Getting one hand moved around IS going to transfer SOME of the force through your whole body, including the other shooting hand. The big question is how much, and is it worth the effort to make things more realistic?

Personally, I'd rather avoid any house-rules for other-hand fighting, but if someone was shooting, say, an assault-cannon in one hand, I'd probably transfer half of the uncompensated recoil to the other hand.

[Wulffyre]

I'd generally argue that anything that 'takes training' is something that will reduce one's dice-pool. Doing something hard reduces die-pools or increases thresholds. Training is represented by having big die pools. Getting one hand moved around IS going to transfer SOME of the force through your whole body, including the other shooting hand. The big question is how much, and is it worth the effort to make things more realistic?

Personally, I'd rather avoid any house-rules for other-hand fighting, but if someone was shooting, say, an assault-cannon in one hand, I'd probably transfer half of the uncompensated recoil to the other hand.

Agreed, but mind, that I am only talking about pistol sized weapons here, where the recoil is barely noticeable anyway.

And for the matter of Assault Cannon in one hand. If somebody is stupid enough to try that in my game, I'd simply tell him to go and fetch himself somebody that can mend his halfway ripped off arm. We only allow Assaultcannons to be fired either in prone or in crouching position.

[sabs]

Agreed, but mind, that I am only talking about pistol sized weapons here, where the recoil is barely noticeable anyway.

And for the matter of Assault Cannon in one hand. If somebody is stupid enough to try that in my game, I'd simply tell him to go and fetch himself somebody that can mend his halfway ripped off arm. We only allow Assaultcannons to be fired either in prone or in crouching position.

Even for a troll with a 11+ str? who has 2 points of natural RC?

[Mäx]

And I really fail to see how you suffer less recoil by shooting the weapon one after the other, RAI or otherwise.

Because your 2 guns have double the RC compared to 1 similar gun.

[capt.pantsless]

Agreed, but mind, that I am only talking about pistol sized weapons here, where the recoil is barely noticeable anyway.

I totally agree - but what if someone's packing a machine-pistol? Or even going out on a limb and trying to wield an assault rifle with one hand?

And for the matter of Assault Cannon in one hand. If somebody is stupid enough to try that in my game, I'd simply tell him to go and fetch himself somebody that can mend his halfway ripped off arm. We only allow Assaultcannons to be fired either in prone or in crouching position.

I was half-joking about the Assault Cannon - the average human should usually be minus 1 arm after firing. However - I'm usually more lenient on big giant cybered-up trolls and even Orks sometimes. Its POSSIBLE, but not very accurate to be firing a big-gun one-handed. Recoil transferring from hand-to-hand is another good way to model that.

[KarmaInferno]

I totally agree - but what if someone's packing a machine-pistol? Or even going out on a limb and trying to wield an assault rifle with one hand?

I feel compelled to re-post this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ




-k

[capt.pantsless]

I feel compelled to re-post this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ

-k

That man is my new hero. I wonder how accurate he was with two SAWs at once.

[Dakka Dakka]

Personally, I'd rather avoid any house-rules for other-hand fighting, but if someone was shooting, say, an assault-cannon in one hand, I'd probably transfer half of the uncompensated recoil to the other hand.

You can't dual-wield assault cannons. Only SMG-sized weapons or smaller ones may be used in that fashion. The rules for using a single large weapon in one hand is only introduced as an optional rule in Arsenal.

[KarmaInferno]

That man is my new hero. I wonder how accurate he was with two SAWs at once.

I love the comment, "Those bullets look primarily composed of my tax dollars. Sweet."





-k

[ZeroPoint]

I have to say that the one thing that makes dual wielding very nice is during suprise/ambush combat. My dual pistol madman can reliably drop two enemies in the first round of combat.

2xRuger thunderbolts with a DP around 18-20
Simple action - Quickdraw Double SB on first target. < 2x(at 5+2+net hits) > Down.
Free action - Call shot for damage on second target
Simple action - Single Burst fire shot. < 5+4+2 +net hits > Down.

and since they are suprised all hits are net hits. So all you need is one hit per roll.

And being a partial Face makes this really fun to pull out after you get them to let down their guard a little.

[TheScrivener]

I love the comment, "Those bullets look primarily composed of my tax dollars. Sweet."

I've never been happier to see my tax dollars at work. And as for accuracy, I don't think "grouping" is as good a word for this as "swath."

[capt.pantsless]

You can't dual-wield assault cannons. Only SMG-sized weapons or smaller ones may be used in that fashion. The rules for using a single large weapon in one hand is only introduced as an optional rule in Arsenal.

But 2 assault cannons means MOAR DAKKA!! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!!

*cough* Ahem. Sorry, that slips out now and then. Back to the thread at hand:

It would be pretty crazy to fire an assault-cannon in one hand. Its -slightly- less crazy if you're big and strong. It's super Crazy-go-nuts to fire 2 of them at the same time. I was sorta meaning Big Gun in one-hand, pistol in the other hand. I was merely trying to use an extreme example to illustrate that SOME recoil would transfer from one hand to the other.

[Yerameyahu]

100% of uncompensated recoil affects both hands. The idea is that you have more total RC with two guns that both have RC 3 than with *one* gun that have RC 3. Therefore, less of it can be *un*-compensated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

100% of uncompensated recoil affects both hands. The idea is that you have more total RC with two guns that both have RC 3 than with *one* gun that have RC 3. Therefore, less of it can be *un*-compensated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actualy, no. Recoil is accumulated by RAW per weapon. Only if you use both weapons with the same Aimple Action, any uncompensated recoil applies to both weapons. Otherwise that is indeed the tactic. And yes getting 3 points of RC on two weapons is easier than 6 on one.

It is not totally clear if this is legal, but you could also fire two long bursts with two weapons and with 5 RC each would not suffer any recoil. Even if this is out, just use a short burst with one weapon and a long one woth the other. Still with 5RC you won't suffer recoil. Still better than firing those bursts from one weapon.

[jakephillips]

Actualy, no. Recoil is accumulated by RAW per weapon. Only if you use both weapons with the same Aimple Action, any uncompensated recoil applies to both weapons. Otherwise that is indeed the tactic. And yes getting 3 points of RC on two weapons is easier than 6 on one.

It is not totally clear if this is legal, but you could also fire two long bursts with two weapons and with 5 RC each would not suffer any recoil. Even if this is out, just use a short burst with one weapon and a long one woth the other. Still with 5RC you won't suffer recoil. Still better than firing those bursts from one weapon.

I think this is right

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno, Dakka Dakka. Last time we had this same thread (sigh), I could've sworn that was the conclusion. Also, always err on the side of 'No Free Lunch, You Dirty Munchkin' (TANSTAAFL,YDM). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jaid]

i don't recall anything restricting uncompensated recoil to within the same simple action. you sure about that? as far as i can tell, if it's in the same combat turn, you suffer from *any* uncompensated recoil.

[Dakka Dakka]

Recoil accumulates over the whole Action Phase, not Combat Turn, and per weapon. Only if you use two weapons in the same Simple Action does uncompensated recoil from one weapon affect the other.

Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon. Semiautomatic weapons that fire a second shot receive a –1 dice pool modifier for the second shot only.
Burst-fire weapons receive a –2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and –3 for the second. Long bursts suffer –5 (first burst in phase) or –6 recoil (second). Full auto bursts suffer
–9 recoil.

Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.

The single Long Burst per Action Phase however is not explicitly tied to a single weapon.

Long bursts only take a Simple Action, but only one long burst can be fired in an Action Phase. An attacker could, however, fire a long burst and a short burst in the same Action Phase (or vice versa)

[TheScrivener]

I never understood recoil being by Phase instead of by Turn. Why does having faster reflexes make you immune to barrel rise?

[Dakka Dakka]

I never understood recoil being by Phase instead of by Turn. Why does having faster reflexes make you immune to barrel rise?

It doesn't, but you have the time to realign the weapon between the phases. Why else would tecoil reset after an arbitrary number of seconds?

[Neurosis]

I feel compelled to re-post this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ




-k

Yes.

[Summerstorm]

One thing that has always bugged me is the "Both weapons have to be used in the same mode" rule.

What if, for axample, i have a Sword in my right hand and a pistol in my left? I "should" be able to slice someone open while shooting another man in the face. But i have to houserule such occasions (Just: Lower dicepool limits and gets split , longer action is the time: you can't shoot twice, when cutting on the other side, AND no special maneuvres to borrow actions etc.).

Back to the original post: I myself like dual wielding. Nobody FORCES you to use both in the same action, but if the situation arrises you can do so.

For example good to:
- pile attacks upon someone to take down his dodge pool. (For example your team versus some enhanced, enchanted combat prime runner)
- pump someone full of poison/electric darts etc.
- do some major collateral damage while hunting down somebody (For a more cinematic style of play)
- juggle stats to optimize your LAST attack or FIRST attack (Dodge-penalty or wound modifier respectively)

And yeah, firing two panthers is awesome, yet impractical. (Though i would let my people do it... for a price... and under special circumstances.)
Also: here is a video of Arnold using two sniping railguns akimbo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHoIMBXKSos

[Whipstitch]

Clearly the point of using 2 weapons is so a quick draw artist can fire 4 different APDS loaded Eichiro Hatamoto IIs in the same action phase.

[Raiki]

Clearly the point of using 2 weapons is so a quick draw artist can fire 4 different APDS loaded Eichiro Hatamoto IIs in the same action phase.

For when dead just isn't quite dead enough.

[KarmaInferno]

I'll just leave this here...





-k

[Neurosis]

Clearly the point of using 2 weapons is so a quick draw artist can fire 4 different APDS loaded Eichiro Hatamoto IIs in the same action phase.

*facepalm*

Seriously, isn't quickdrawing a simple action? I know you can quickdraw and fire with one simple action, and that you can fire two dual-wielded pistols with one simple action, but where does it say that dual-wielding also lets you double-quickdraw and double-fire with one simple action?

[Yerameyahu]

There are a couple ways to get non-Simple Quickdraws. Not that the idea is less silly because of them, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Udoshi]

*facepalm*

Seriously, isn't quickdrawing a simple action? I know you can quickdraw and fire with one simple action, and that you can fire two dual-wielded pistols with one simple action, but where does it say that dual-wielding also lets you double-quickdraw and double-fire with one simple action?

Quickdraw is a simple action, which includes both the act of drawing and firing, but has a reaction+weapon skill test to do so. You're allowed to double quickdraw because the threshold goes up by 1 if you do it with two weapons at the same time.

What you aren't doing is quad drawing, but rather quickdrawing two times in a row, and dropping the first set of guns before drawing the other.


Also, you're silly, and should read the description of quickdraw before complaining about it.

"Two weapons may be quick-drawn and fired simultaneously, but this raises the threshold on the pistols+reaction test to 4 (see attacker using a second firearm, p.150. A seperate Pistols+Reaction (4) test is required for each pistol(threshold 3 if they are held in quickdraw holsters)"

[Yerameyahu]

Oops, I meant there are a couple ways to get non-*Pistol* quickdraws (because I forget the Hatamoto is technically a pistol, despite its appearance). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And yes, it's still silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Shrike30]

Vaguely drifting back to the original question... I've got a couple of characters who run two-simultaneous-gun attacks reasonably often. One normally runs 15 dice (11 +2 smartgun, +2 machine pistol spec), which divides down to 7 dice apiece (round down and lose the smartgun) when running akimbo... still more than the average mook gets to dodge. The other usually runs 7 dice (6 +1 laser), which divides down to 5 dice (6/2=3 +2 akimbo spec) when running akimbo.

Making this work requires a few things:
-Keep your penalties low: engage targets inside of a few meters, and if you can get the +2 for point blank (applies to both rolls!), go for it. Don't open up with more rounds than you have RC for. If your target has cover, is outside of close range, or is generally being a pain in the ass by doing things like running or firing off the flashpak strapped to his armor, stick with one gun unless your starting pool is huge.

-Use decent weapons: you aren't going to get many more successes than your targets, so whatever you're hitting them with had better carry enough punch on it's own. Machine pistols are great for this kind of work if you can get enough RC on them as they basically add a couple of points of damage per burst to your target. SMG's are even better if you can hack it, as they have much longer effective ranges even akimbo.

-Use decent ammo: APDS would be my go-to here. Again, without many net successes, you need something that's going to get past body armor, or you're just flattening pistol ammo against someone's jacket for stun damage. There's a metagame arguement for preferring to do stun damage, but you don't usually start spraying bullets around with both hands when you just want someone unconcious. As even the lighter common armor types/combos give armor ratings in the 6-8 range, a couple of net hits won't usually bypass that. APDS makes even a light pistol capable of reliably inflicting a Physical wound on anything up to 9 points of armor, and drastically reduces the number of dice the target gets to soak what damage he does recieve.

[Dakka Dakka]

Vaguely drifting back to the original question... I've got a couple of characters who run two-simultaneous-gun attacks reasonably often. One normally runs 15 dice (11 +2 smartgun, +2 machine pistol spec), which divides down to 7 dice apiece (round down and lose the smartgun) when running akimbo... still more than the average mook gets to dodge. The other usually runs 7 dice (6 +1 laser), which divides down to 5 dice (6/2=3 +2 akimbo spec) when running akimbo.

You have misread the rules to your disadvantage. You just split the pool. There is no rounding. You don't even have to split the pool evenly. You could by RAW even go with a 1; (X-1) split with X=your pool. The first could as well be an 6/5 split with +2 to both for the specialization, so 8/7.

The conditions you need to effectively use dual-wielding are spot on.

[Shrike30]

You have misread the rules to your disadvantage. You just split the pool. There is no rounding. You don't even have to split the pool evenly. You could by RAW even go with a 1; (X-1) split with X=your pool. The first could as well be an 6/5 split with +2 to both for the specialization, so 8/7.

Hey, sweet. Extra dice! The thought of tossing extra bullets at someone with 1 in the die pool is kind of amusing (well, 3 after specialization) but you gotta at least look like you're trying, in my head. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Still, if nothing else it's a good way to burn up someone's reaction pool by doubling the number of attacks he has to avoid, and you could do THAT without losing many dice at all from your "real" attack.

[Neurosis]

Sorry Shrike, but Smartlink & Laser Sight don't apply to dual wielding.

[Yerameyahu]

He already counted that out, Neurosis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Udoshi]

Oops, I meant there are a couple ways to get non-*Pistol* quickdraws (because I forget the Hatamoto is technically a pistol, despite its appearance). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And yes, it's still silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yes. Both the martial art maneuver and the adept power allow this.

[TheScrivener]

What's so silly about Iajutsu? Absolutely vital for the traditionalist Street Sam looking for that monofilament Diagonal Cut.

[Udoshi]

What's so silly about Iajutsu? Absolutely vital for the traditionalist Street Sam looking for that monofilament Diagonal Cut.

Nothing's silly about it. Its quite good.
It happens to let you quick draw anything with a reach of 1 or less, and lets you complex action draw some things for stabbing.
The main benefit is, guns never have reach.

Adept centering does the same thing, except better, because it lowers the threshold to 2. That doesn't necessarily mean its worth half a power point, though.

[Yerameyahu]

It's good, sure, but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous. If it only worked on swords, that would be one thing. Using it on large guns, possibly rocket launchers, is just preposterous. If anything, munchkin-potential only makes it more silly, not less. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[TheScrivener]

yeah, I suppose that's true - I tend to restrict martial arts a bit more than RAW in my games so I forget about this stuff. The way I see it, your Martial Arts maneuvers only count towards weapons you specifically use as part of that martial art, so if it's not realistic for you to be practicing that constantly offscreen (like gun users going to the range) you don't have skill in quickdrawing that weapon.

[StealthSigma]

My opinion towards dual wielding has remaining fairly consistent no matter the PnP RPG I'm playing, mostly because the grounds of my opinion tends to hold true. Note that these are generalizations and that there are exceptions.

1. The strength of dual wielding is inversely proportional to the strength of your target's defense. Dual wielding applies defense twice and with lower damage than "two-handed" weapons so you have a larger portion of your damage negated through defenses.
2. Dual wielding becomes more potent when you can negate significant portions of your target's defense (APDS, Ambushes).
3. Two weapons that are dual wield capable will cause more damage than one weapon that is not dual wield capable. With respect to generalization #1.

[Shrike30]

4. Jumping onto a restaurant table and pouring a bunch of 9mm into the diner's chest and head is going to ruin his day, regardless of if it all came out of a couple of handguns or a single SMG. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

Hey, sweet. Extra dice! The thought of tossing extra bullets at someone with 1 in the die pool is kind of amusing (well, 3 after specialization) but you gotta at least look like you're trying, in my head. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Still, if nothing else it's a good way to burn up someone's reaction pool by doubling the number of attacks he has to avoid, and you could do THAT without losing many dice at all from your "real" attack.

You want to keep glitches and critical glitches in mind, though, when you are rolling extremely small dice pools.

[Shrike30]

You want to keep glitches and critical glitches in mind, though, when you are rolling extremely small dice pools.

That's as good a reason as any to split the die pool fairly evenly, in my mind. Nothing quite like an EX round blowing apart your piece to ruin your John Woo moment.

[Dakka Dakka]

That's as good a reason as any to split the die pool fairly evenly, in my mind. Nothing quite like an EX round blowing apart your piece to ruin your John Woo moment.

IIRC only with 1-3 dice the glitching probabbility is really bad. Even if you only take one die from the split pool, you can easily get the final pool to 3, 6 for adepts. At least for adepts the glitching is not that dangerous. Forgot the errata. Improved Ability no longer is a Dice Pool Modifier. It does not work that well. with the rules change.

[KarmaInferno]

You want to keep glitches and critical glitches in mind, though, when you are rolling extremely small dice pools.

See my earlier story about critical glitching with two dice as a pixie while firing a Predator. And the afterward resulting hole in the drywall, behind where she had been standing.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

Funny how an error in aiming skill changes physics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Damn pixies.

[Critias]

Funny how an error in aiming skill changes physics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Damn pixies.

Being off-balance when you shoot, improperly holding the gun, not being ready for the recoil, etc, etc, are all things that can cause a fully grown man to drop a gun, get knocked over, take a step or two back, or physically hurt himself, IRL. I don't have any problem with something a little more dramatic happening for a tiny little pixie shooting a full-powered gun and glitching it (though being knocked through a wall is a bit too slapstick for my taste, I'll admit). Not so much an error in aiming as an error in stance, balance, and general readiness.

[Yerameyahu]

I know, but damn pixies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm sure it was appropriate to the game.

[KarmaInferno]

I think my GM may have been envisioning this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DujAsjNsPLY



-k

[Shrike30]

Muahahaha!