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Nerdynick
Something my friends and I have been puzzled about for a while is why would someone bother using two weapons? From my interpretation of the rules (which may not be entirely accurate), two pistols requires you to split your dicepool in half and removes any bonus you get from laser sights/smartlinks. So you're pumping out double the shots at less than half the accuracy?

For melee weapons, your target has a slight dice pool penalty and you gain a slight bonus to melee defense (unless you have the two weapon fighting maneuver, in which case it becomes a rather substantial bonus to melee defense).

And on top of those, you get an off hand penalty unless you're ambidextrous.

Both of these seem fairly underwhelming to me, so what is the real bonus to fighting with two weapons, aside from style?
Critias
If you've got a monstrously huge die pool (like a gunslinger Adept might, let's say), and you're shooting at baddies without monstrously huge dodge pools, it can be worth it to go the two-pistol route. Remember that every dodge attempt lowers dodge/reaction pools by one, and you can eventually overwhelm an attacker by pouring multiple shots at them...*shrugs*

Is it awesome? Nope. But, then, it shouldn't be, or every cop would have two guns on his belt.
Raiki
Well, you don't actually have to split your dice pool in half. You can split it however you want, so long as each pool has at least 1 die. And that's not always so bad. If your average runner is fighting a professional level 1 ganger, even rolling the 5 or 6 dice that splitting your pool would give is going to be enough. You may not get many net hits, but then again the ganger's soak pool isn't going to be all that fantastic either.

It's a mixed bag really, though dual-weilding versus high defense targets seems like a bad idea.



Just my 2 nuyen.gif .



Edit: Damn! Ninja everywhere! I'm surrounded! ninja.gif

~R~
Ramorta
Also to point out, things like specalizations get added AFTER you split the dice pool. So someone with 3 pistols (+2 semi-automatics) and 3 agility. With a dicepool of 6 (+2 specalization) before the split. Designate 3 dice to each hand, +2 for your specalization is 5 dice. I'd call that a decent tradeoff. (Taking into account having ambidexterity)

Another reason would be increased ammo capacity. Having a spair clip already loaded into your gun never hurt anybody.
Medicineman
Also to point out, things like specalizations get added AFTER you split the dice pool.
Right, but the Yin to this Yang is that every negative Mod is also added After splitting the Pool wink.gif
Akimbo Shooting is a mixed blessing ,I like it,some of my Chars have it(the Real Fun comes with 4 Guns biggrin.gif ) and its OK for them, but its not for every Char and certainly not for every situation,but you'r more flexible .....and it's better to have and need not than need and have not

With a YinYang Dance
Medicineman
Glyph
When you have a high dice pool and don't need all of it, then splitting it in order to take out more enemies is a valid tactical decision. Wielding two weapons also lets you switch between different types of ammo or damage easily, or, if you have a ranged weapon in one hand and a melee weapon in the other hand, switch between close combat and ranged combat.

I don't really mind it being an occasionally useful niche tactic, because otherwise everyone would use it, all of the time. I remember AD&D, when the rules for two-weapon styles came out, and it seemed like every single fighter was a dual-wielder.
Mayhem_2006
Another oft overlooked reason for using 2 weapons ambidextrously is that you can fire a short burst from one using a simple action and then a short burst from the other using the other simple action you get in the same turn, with lower recoil penalties than you would get for firing 2 short bursts from 1 weapon.

Doing it that way, you get your full dice pool and keep your smartlink bonuses.

And effectively double your ammo, of course.
Mäx
Also if you have guns with lots of RC you can use wide burst to give the opponent(s) a nice negative to their dodge pool, giving you a better chance to score some nethits even with your split pool.
Or you can just use 2 guns with less RC and just shoot them one after the other, essentially doubling your ammo capacity and RC compared to just using one gun.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 24 2010, 05:30 PM) *
When you have a high dice pool and don't need all of it, then splitting it in order to take out more enemies is a valid tactical decision. Wielding two weapons also lets you switch between different types of ammo or damage easily, or, if you have a ranged weapon in one hand and a melee weapon in the other hand, switch between close combat and ranged combat.

I don't really mind it being an occasionally useful niche tactic, because otherwise everyone would use it, all of the time. I remember AD&D, when the rules for two-weapon styles came out, and it seemed like every single fighter was a dual-wielder.


I like it to be a valid choice, which is almost is now.

Oh in AD&D two weapon fighting was cool if you had a high dex. It was -4 to your attacks but you reaction bonus canceled it, so a 18 dex put you at an extra attack and no penalty. Or just be a drow and they got no penalty no matter what their dex was. I think 2e had the same rules but no perk for being a drow.
Udoshi
The main benefit to fighting two-weapon style is fighting pirate style: Sword+Gun, with two-weapon defense and a melee hardened pistol.
Its also worth noting that melee weapons can just flat out multihit melee targets by splitting the dice pool without resorting to double wielding.

Since penalties and bonuses come after the split, it can be good thing or a bad thing. If you plan on akimbo fighting, then you just need to stack your bonuses and eliminate penalties as usual. All it does is get rid of laser sight/smartlink bonuses - all other bonuses stay intact. Tacnets, for example, or tracer rounds(if you have decent compensation) while using an Improved Rangefinder(or the hawkeye quality, or both) saves you a dice at medium range. I don't care what the FAQ says, about pool splitting and specializations, its wrong, and contradicts the anniversary edition, so there's that too.
Don't forget that subsequent defenses carry a -1 per defense penalty, and a two-gun user can put out 4 shots per pass. If they all hit, the last shot has a pretty hefty defense penalty, and short wide bursting just makes it worse.

Like anything in shadowrun, two gunning is good if you specialize/focus on it. For two-gunning, you have to do it slightly differently: Focus on getting rid of or reducing the penalties, because there's not a lot of bonuses to be had.

That being said, gunslinger adepts are pretty awesome, and the classic gunslinger spam-arai are pretty good(two cyberarms, gyromounts, high velocity smgs with gasvents, tracer rounds, and long bursts everywhere).
If you really want, you can make a double Shiva Arms Troll(okay, it would probably be a fomori) using the arsenal advanced combat options for wielding big weapons, using 6 shotguns on wide burst wide choke to just obliterate any defenders dice pool at close range.
You're welcome for that mental image.
Neurosis
It is not ineffective enough to outweigh how cool it is.
Yerameyahu
Or how wannabe it looks. wink.gif Freaking John Woo…
Makki
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 24 2010, 11:02 PM) *
like a gunslinger Adept might


Adepts can also negate negativ modifiers with Adept Centering. Dual wielding makes this metamagic practically double effective.
IKerensky
Only benefit I see is to have different munition/weapon setting on each gun and in fact using only one at a time while having both draw.

If you really want to shoot and use both your hands there is plenty of better option than using dual guns (assault rifle by example).
IKerensky
QUOTE (Mayhem_2006 @ Oct 24 2010, 10:11 PM) *
Another oft overlooked reason for using 2 weapons ambidextrously is that you can fire a short burst from one using a simple action and then a short burst from the other using the other simple action you get in the same turn, with lower recoil penalties than you would get for firing 2 short bursts from 1 weapon.

Doing it that way, you get your full dice pool and keep your smartlink bonuses.

And effectively double your ammo, of course.


Overlooked because not in my rulebook or RAI, a character wont get any benefit from using 2 weapons to shoot his short burst rather than twice 1 weapon.

As far as I recall the rules, it say the penalty is by bullet shot after the first in the round, I dont recall it specificating with the same gun.
Wulffyre
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Oct 25 2010, 02:03 PM) *
Overlooked because not in my rulebook or RAI, a character wont get any benefit from using 2 weapons to shoot his short burst rather than twice 1 weapon.

As far as I recall the rules, it say the penalty is by bullet shot after the first in the round, I dont recall it specificating with the same gun.


You can't exactly say that this isn't RAI, because quite frankly, if you do shoot one gun after the other, you suffer less recoil. (Assuming a base level of shooting ability and strength etc)

capt.pantsless
You can also double your rate-of-fire - e.g. have a Ruger Super Warhawk in each hand and fire them independently, one in each simple action. You still get to keep your whole dice-pool, plus you get the super-manly 6P damage.
IKerensky
I was refering to my RAI wink.gif

And I really fail to see how you suffer less recoil by shooting the weapon one after the other, RAI or otherwise.
Wulffyre
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Oct 25 2010, 03:27 PM) *
I was refering to my RAI wink.gif

And I really fail to see how you suffer less recoil by shooting the weapon one after the other, RAI or otherwise.


My fault then for misinterpreting

But generally, you do suffer less recoil.

Assuming you have a pistol in both hands, the recoil of one hand will, if even, barely affect your other hand, because Pistolrecoil is usally manageable, unless we talk about absurdly high caliber (i.e .50 or .444). So practically you absorb most of the recoil with your arm and shoulder and that leaves your other arm relatively stable for another shot. (Naturally this does take training, but any runner that dual wields, would have sufficient enough training to do so effectively)
capt.pantsless
QUOTE (Wulffyre @ Oct 25 2010, 08:37 AM) *
Naturally this does take training, but any runner that dual wields, would have sufficient enough training to do so effectively



I'd generally argue that anything that 'takes training' is something that will reduce one's dice-pool. Doing something hard reduces die-pools or increases thresholds. Training is represented by having big die pools. Getting one hand moved around IS going to transfer SOME of the force through your whole body, including the other shooting hand. The big question is how much, and is it worth the effort to make things more realistic?

Personally, I'd rather avoid any house-rules for other-hand fighting, but if someone was shooting, say, an assault-cannon in one hand, I'd probably transfer half of the uncompensated recoil to the other hand.
Wulffyre
QUOTE (capt.pantsless @ Oct 25 2010, 03:54 PM) *
I'd generally argue that anything that 'takes training' is something that will reduce one's dice-pool. Doing something hard reduces die-pools or increases thresholds. Training is represented by having big die pools. Getting one hand moved around IS going to transfer SOME of the force through your whole body, including the other shooting hand. The big question is how much, and is it worth the effort to make things more realistic?

Personally, I'd rather avoid any house-rules for other-hand fighting, but if someone was shooting, say, an assault-cannon in one hand, I'd probably transfer half of the uncompensated recoil to the other hand.


Agreed, but mind, that I am only talking about pistol sized weapons here, where the recoil is barely noticeable anyway.

And for the matter of Assault Cannon in one hand. If somebody is stupid enough to try that in my game, I'd simply tell him to go and fetch himself somebody that can mend his halfway ripped off arm. We only allow Assaultcannons to be fired either in prone or in crouching position.
sabs
QUOTE (Wulffyre @ Oct 25 2010, 03:31 PM) *
Agreed, but mind, that I am only talking about pistol sized weapons here, where the recoil is barely noticeable anyway.

And for the matter of Assault Cannon in one hand. If somebody is stupid enough to try that in my game, I'd simply tell him to go and fetch himself somebody that can mend his halfway ripped off arm. We only allow Assaultcannons to be fired either in prone or in crouching position.


Even for a troll with a 11+ str? who has 2 points of natural RC?
Mäx
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Oct 25 2010, 04:27 PM) *
And I really fail to see how you suffer less recoil by shooting the weapon one after the other, RAI or otherwise.

Because your 2 guns have double the RC compared to 1 similar gun.
capt.pantsless
QUOTE (Wulffyre @ Oct 25 2010, 09:31 AM) *
Agreed, but mind, that I am only talking about pistol sized weapons here, where the recoil is barely noticeable anyway.


I totally agree - but what if someone's packing a machine-pistol? Or even going out on a limb and trying to wield an assault rifle with one hand?

QUOTE (Wulffyre @ Oct 25 2010, 09:31 AM) *
And for the matter of Assault Cannon in one hand. If somebody is stupid enough to try that in my game, I'd simply tell him to go and fetch himself somebody that can mend his halfway ripped off arm. We only allow Assaultcannons to be fired either in prone or in crouching position.


I was half-joking about the Assault Cannon - the average human should usually be minus 1 arm after firing. However - I'm usually more lenient on big giant cybered-up trolls and even Orks sometimes. Its POSSIBLE, but not very accurate to be firing a big-gun one-handed. Recoil transferring from hand-to-hand is another good way to model that.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (capt.pantsless @ Oct 25 2010, 09:45 AM) *
I totally agree - but what if someone's packing a machine-pistol? Or even going out on a limb and trying to wield an assault rifle with one hand?


I feel compelled to re-post this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ




-k
capt.pantsless
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 25 2010, 10:06 AM) *
I feel compelled to re-post this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ

-k


That man is my new hero. I wonder how accurate he was with two SAWs at once.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (capt.pantsless @ Oct 25 2010, 03:54 PM) *
Personally, I'd rather avoid any house-rules for other-hand fighting, but if someone was shooting, say, an assault-cannon in one hand, I'd probably transfer half of the uncompensated recoil to the other hand.

You can't dual-wield assault cannons. Only SMG-sized weapons or smaller ones may be used in that fashion. The rules for using a single large weapon in one hand is only introduced as an optional rule in Arsenal.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (capt.pantsless @ Oct 25 2010, 10:14 AM) *
That man is my new hero. I wonder how accurate he was with two SAWs at once.

I love the comment, "Those bullets look primarily composed of my tax dollars. Sweet."





-k
ZeroPoint
I have to say that the one thing that makes dual wielding very nice is during suprise/ambush combat. My dual pistol madman can reliably drop two enemies in the first round of combat.

2xRuger thunderbolts with a DP around 18-20
Simple action - Quickdraw Double SB on first target. < 2x(at 5+2+net hits) > Down.
Free action - Call shot for damage on second target
Simple action - Single Burst fire shot. < 5+4+2 +net hits > Down.

and since they are suprised all hits are net hits. So all you need is one hit per roll.

And being a partial Face makes this really fun to pull out after you get them to let down their guard a little.
TheScrivener
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 25 2010, 10:28 AM) *
I love the comment, "Those bullets look primarily composed of my tax dollars. Sweet."

I've never been happier to see my tax dollars at work. And as for accuracy, I don't think "grouping" is as good a word for this as "swath."
capt.pantsless
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 25 2010, 09:21 AM) *
You can't dual-wield assault cannons. Only SMG-sized weapons or smaller ones may be used in that fashion. The rules for using a single large weapon in one hand is only introduced as an optional rule in Arsenal.


But 2 assault cannons means MOAR DAKKA!! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!!

*cough* Ahem. Sorry, that slips out now and then. Back to the thread at hand:

It would be pretty crazy to fire an assault-cannon in one hand. Its -slightly- less crazy if you're big and strong. It's super Crazy-go-nuts to fire 2 of them at the same time. I was sorta meaning Big Gun in one-hand, pistol in the other hand. I was merely trying to use an extreme example to illustrate that SOME recoil would transfer from one hand to the other.
Yerameyahu
100% of uncompensated recoil affects both hands. The idea is that you have more total RC with two guns that both have RC 3 than with *one* gun that have RC 3. Therefore, less of it can be *un*-compensated. smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 25 2010, 06:00 PM) *
100% of uncompensated recoil affects both hands. The idea is that you have more total RC with two guns that both have RC 3 than with *one* gun that have RC 3. Therefore, less of it can be *un*-compensated. smile.gif
Actualy, no. Recoil is accumulated by RAW per weapon. Only if you use both weapons with the same Aimple Action, any uncompensated recoil applies to both weapons. Otherwise that is indeed the tactic. And yes getting 3 points of RC on two weapons is easier than 6 on one.

It is not totally clear if this is legal, but you could also fire two long bursts with two weapons and with 5 RC each would not suffer any recoil. Even if this is out, just use a short burst with one weapon and a long one woth the other. Still with 5RC you won't suffer recoil. Still better than firing those bursts from one weapon.
jakephillips
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 25 2010, 11:11 AM) *
Actualy, no. Recoil is accumulated by RAW per weapon. Only if you use both weapons with the same Aimple Action, any uncompensated recoil applies to both weapons. Otherwise that is indeed the tactic. And yes getting 3 points of RC on two weapons is easier than 6 on one.

It is not totally clear if this is legal, but you could also fire two long bursts with two weapons and with 5 RC each would not suffer any recoil. Even if this is out, just use a short burst with one weapon and a long one woth the other. Still with 5RC you won't suffer recoil. Still better than firing those bursts from one weapon.


I think this is right
Yerameyahu
I dunno, Dakka Dakka. Last time we had this same thread (sigh), I could've sworn that was the conclusion. Also, always err on the side of 'No Free Lunch, You Dirty Munchkin' (TANSTAAFL,YDM). biggrin.gif
Jaid
i don't recall anything restricting uncompensated recoil to within the same simple action. you sure about that? as far as i can tell, if it's in the same combat turn, you suffer from *any* uncompensated recoil.
Dakka Dakka
Recoil accumulates over the whole Action Phase, not Combat Turn, and per weapon. Only if you use two weapons in the same Simple Action does uncompensated recoil from one weapon affect the other.

QUOTE ('SR4A p. 152')
Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon. Semiautomatic weapons that fire a second shot receive a –1 dice pool modifier for the second shot only.
Burst-fire weapons receive a –2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and –3 for the second. Long bursts suffer –5 (first burst in phase) or –6 recoil (second). Full auto bursts suffer
–9 recoil.


QUOTE ('SR4A p. 150')
Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.


The single Long Burst per Action Phase however is not explicitly tied to a single weapon.
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 154')
Long bursts only take a Simple Action, but only one long burst can be fired in an Action Phase. An attacker could, however, fire a long burst and a short burst in the same Action Phase (or vice versa)
TheScrivener
I never understood recoil being by Phase instead of by Turn. Why does having faster reflexes make you immune to barrel rise?
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (TheScrivener @ Oct 25 2010, 07:17 PM) *
I never understood recoil being by Phase instead of by Turn. Why does having faster reflexes make you immune to barrel rise?
It doesn't, but you have the time to realign the weapon between the phases. Why else would tecoil reset after an arbitrary number of seconds?
Neurosis
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 25 2010, 10:06 AM) *
I feel compelled to re-post this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ




-k


Yes.
Summerstorm
One thing that has always bugged me is the "Both weapons have to be used in the same mode" rule.

What if, for axample, i have a Sword in my right hand and a pistol in my left? I "should" be able to slice someone open while shooting another man in the face. But i have to houserule such occasions (Just: Lower dicepool limits and gets split , longer action is the time: you can't shoot twice, when cutting on the other side, AND no special maneuvres to borrow actions etc.).

Back to the original post: I myself like dual wielding. Nobody FORCES you to use both in the same action, but if the situation arrises you can do so.

For example good to:
- pile attacks upon someone to take down his dodge pool. (For example your team versus some enhanced, enchanted combat prime runner)
- pump someone full of poison/electric darts etc.
- do some major collateral damage while hunting down somebody (For a more cinematic style of play)
- juggle stats to optimize your LAST attack or FIRST attack (Dodge-penalty or wound modifier respectively)

And yeah, firing two panthers is awesome, yet impractical. (Though i would let my people do it... for a price... and under special circumstances.)
Also: here is a video of Arnold using two sniping railguns akimbo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHoIMBXKSos
Whipstitch
Clearly the point of using 2 weapons is so a quick draw artist can fire 4 different APDS loaded Eichiro Hatamoto IIs in the same action phase.
Raiki
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Oct 25 2010, 04:59 PM) *
Clearly the point of using 2 weapons is so a quick draw artist can fire 4 different APDS loaded Eichiro Hatamoto IIs in the same action phase.


For when dead just isn't quite dead enough.
KarmaInferno
I'll just leave this here...





-k
Neurosis
QUOTE
Clearly the point of using 2 weapons is so a quick draw artist can fire 4 different APDS loaded Eichiro Hatamoto IIs in the same action phase.


*facepalm*

Seriously, isn't quickdrawing a simple action? I know you can quickdraw and fire with one simple action, and that you can fire two dual-wielded pistols with one simple action, but where does it say that dual-wielding also lets you double-quickdraw and double-fire with one simple action?
Yerameyahu
There are a couple ways to get non-Simple Quickdraws. Not that the idea is less silly because of them, though. wink.gif
Udoshi
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Oct 25 2010, 04:14 PM) *
*facepalm*

Seriously, isn't quickdrawing a simple action? I know you can quickdraw and fire with one simple action, and that you can fire two dual-wielded pistols with one simple action, but where does it say that dual-wielding also lets you double-quickdraw and double-fire with one simple action?


Quickdraw is a simple action, which includes both the act of drawing and firing, but has a reaction+weapon skill test to do so. You're allowed to double quickdraw because the threshold goes up by 1 if you do it with two weapons at the same time.

What you aren't doing is quad drawing, but rather quickdrawing two times in a row, and dropping the first set of guns before drawing the other.


Also, you're silly, and should read the description of quickdraw before complaining about it.
QUOTE (4a 147)
"Two weapons may be quick-drawn and fired simultaneously, but this raises the threshold on the pistols+reaction test to 4 (see attacker using a second firearm, p.150. A seperate Pistols+Reaction (4) test is required for each pistol(threshold 3 if they are held in quickdraw holsters)"
Yerameyahu
Oops, I meant there are a couple ways to get non-*Pistol* quickdraws (because I forget the Hatamoto is technically a pistol, despite its appearance). smile.gif And yes, it's still silly. nyahnyah.gif
Shrike30
Vaguely drifting back to the original question... I've got a couple of characters who run two-simultaneous-gun attacks reasonably often. One normally runs 15 dice (11 +2 smartgun, +2 machine pistol spec), which divides down to 7 dice apiece (round down and lose the smartgun) when running akimbo... still more than the average mook gets to dodge. The other usually runs 7 dice (6 +1 laser), which divides down to 5 dice (6/2=3 +2 akimbo spec) when running akimbo.

Making this work requires a few things:
-Keep your penalties low: engage targets inside of a few meters, and if you can get the +2 for point blank (applies to both rolls!), go for it. Don't open up with more rounds than you have RC for. If your target has cover, is outside of close range, or is generally being a pain in the ass by doing things like running or firing off the flashpak strapped to his armor, stick with one gun unless your starting pool is huge.

-Use decent weapons: you aren't going to get many more successes than your targets, so whatever you're hitting them with had better carry enough punch on it's own. Machine pistols are great for this kind of work if you can get enough RC on them as they basically add a couple of points of damage per burst to your target. SMG's are even better if you can hack it, as they have much longer effective ranges even akimbo.

-Use decent ammo: APDS would be my go-to here. Again, without many net successes, you need something that's going to get past body armor, or you're just flattening pistol ammo against someone's jacket for stun damage. There's a metagame arguement for preferring to do stun damage, but you don't usually start spraying bullets around with both hands when you just want someone unconcious. As even the lighter common armor types/combos give armor ratings in the 6-8 range, a couple of net hits won't usually bypass that. APDS makes even a light pistol capable of reliably inflicting a Physical wound on anything up to 9 points of armor, and drastically reduces the number of dice the target gets to soak what damage he does recieve.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Oct 26 2010, 07:20 AM) *
Vaguely drifting back to the original question... I've got a couple of characters who run two-simultaneous-gun attacks reasonably often. One normally runs 15 dice (11 +2 smartgun, +2 machine pistol spec), which divides down to 7 dice apiece (round down and lose the smartgun) when running akimbo... still more than the average mook gets to dodge. The other usually runs 7 dice (6 +1 laser), which divides down to 5 dice (6/2=3 +2 akimbo spec) when running akimbo.
You have misread the rules to your disadvantage. You just split the pool. There is no rounding. You don't even have to split the pool evenly. You could by RAW even go with a 1; (X-1) split with X=your pool. The first could as well be an 6/5 split with +2 to both for the specialization, so 8/7.

The conditions you need to effectively use dual-wielding are spot on.
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