Possession: Breaks augmented attribute limit?, I can't find a reference either way. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Falanin]

Hey guys. I was doing some character creation research for a friend, since I'm the resident SR junkie. As he wants a melee mage, I ended up looking at possession. Now, I remember reading some threads that imply that possession can break the augmented attribute maximums, but looking at Street Magic, I can't find a solid quote that supports that reading. I can't find a quote that says it DOESEN'T, either, though, and my forum search-fu is a fail on this topic as well.
Anyone got a ruling and page number to help me out?

[Sephiroth]

You won't find it in the books, but rather in the FAQ.

[pbangarth]

Street Magic errata put the max for the combined entity at
(vessel racial max + spirit Force ) X 1.5.

The FAQ contradicts that and limits the combined total to the vessel's augmented maximum
(racial max) X 1.5.

[LurkerOutThere]

Which is a good thing possesion is bad enough as is is.

[Muspellsheimr]

Street Magic errata put the max for the combined entity at
(vessel racial max + spirit Force ) X 1.5.

The FAQ contradicts that and limits the combined total to the vessel's augmented maximum
(racial max) X 1.5.

Incorrect. This is one of the (few) instances the FAQ provides a correct ruling.

The Street Magic errata provides no information whatsoever on Possession mechanics.
Street Magic does not list Possession as an exception to the Augmented Maximum rule.

Possession is a Paranormal (magical) ability that modifies a character's attributes, and as such falls under the following unless specified otherwise:

Care must be made to distinguish between natural, unmodified attribute
ratings and those augmented by cyberware, bioware, adept powers,
and magic. Generally, augmented ratings are listed in parentheses after
the natural rating, such as: 4 (6).

The standard range of natural human attributes is rated on a scale
of 1 to 6, with 3 being average. Physical and Mental attributes have a
maximum natural rating of 6 plus or minus metatype modifiers, depending
on metatype (p. 81). The maximum augmented attribute value for
each metatype is equal to 1.5 times this figure, rounded down (see the
Metatype Attribute Table, p. 81). This also applies to Initiative.

Side note: Along with a few other alterations to how spirits work, this is something I personally have House Ruled against.

[Adarael]

Street Magic errata put the max for the combined entity at
(vessel racial max + spirit Force ) X 1.5.

The FAQ contradicts that and limits the combined total to the vessel's augmented maximum
(racial max) X 1.5.

I'd go by the FAQ on this one, because the Street Magic errata provides a limit which will never be hit unless you use spells. Like, really, never. Take a spirit of arbitrary force - we'll say force 6. Let's suppose he posesses a human with cybernetically enhanced maximum attributes: 9. This means his maximum attribute in the combined form is 22.5. The actual attributes he'll have upon being possessed is 15. That leaves a whole whopping room for enhancement that only becomes more ridiculous the higher the force of the spirit or his natural maximums are. I would MUCH rather assume there's no room for spell-based enhancement on top of the posession.

[pbangarth]

It would appear I was remembering the version stated in a Possession FAQ thread here on Dumpshock. I don't have the link and don't want to go look for it. Silly me, taking something from Dumpshock as 'gospel'.

Not that it matters Adarael, but I used the term racial max, not augmented max, so in the example above, using the Possession FAQ from Dumpshock, a human possessed by a F6 spirit would have had (6 + 6) X 1.5 = 18 as a maximum attribute. Since this is equivalent to (6 X 1.5) + (6 X 1.5), it could easily be reached with some augmentation, technical or magical.

As it stands in the Shadowrun FAQ, the human above Possessed by the F6 spirit would have a maximum attribute of 9.

[phlapjack77]

Possession FAQ here, just found it, good stuff:
Possession FAQ

Another thread is a great read about all-things possession. A little long, but I think the relevant stuff starts around here

Dang, can't find the thread where Frank and Synner argue about the attribute caps.

Basically, I think it boils down to how your table views the FAQ. Like the FAQ? Then you're limited to racial maximums. Hate the FAQ? Not really limited.

[Mäx]

Basically, I think it boils down to how your table views the FAQ. Like the FAQ? Then you're limited to racial maximums. Hate the FAQ? Not really limited.

Your still limited to racial maximums without having to use that piece of crap house rule collection.
Augmented attribute maximums is a pretty damm general rule, so there's no reason what so ever to assume that something isn't limited by it unless the rules for that something specifically say so.

[phlapjack77]

Your still limited to racial maximums without having to use that piece of crap house rule collection.
Augmented attribute maximums is a pretty damm general rule, so there's no reason what so ever to assume that something isn't limited by it unless the rules for that something specifically say so.

Maybe, but if I remember correctly, in the thread I can't find, Frank argues that the "original intent" was to have possession augment physical attributes without a limit, but the FAQ changes that to put the attribute cap on them.

Where is that stupid thread? Grrrrr....

[Mäx]

Maybe, but if I remember correctly, in the thread I can't find, Frank argues that the "original intent" was to have possession augment physical attributes without a limit, but the FAQ changes that to put the attribute cap on them.

Where is that stupid thread? Grrrrr....

Franks intent matters even less then the FAQ, when he didn't actually write his intent into the rules.

[phlapjack77]

Franks intent matters even less then the FAQ, when he didn't actually write his intent into the rules.

It's cool - I'm not trying to invoke him as an "I'm right" card. Just saying that there was a lot of belief in the no-attribute-cap, even from the writers. Until they got together and wrote the FAQ to make sure things were clear. So if you disregard the FAQ, you could also disregard the cap.

[cybertier]

I don't know if those writer matter but:
In GC possession breaks the maxima

[pbangarth]

I don't know if those writer matter but:
In GC possession breaks the maxima

Yeah, the dogs have savaged that carcass, too.

[Mäx]

So if you disregard the FAQ, you could also disregard the cap.

Only if you also disregard the actual rules and go only by "writer intent".
The FAQ is a piece of turd not worth the bits it's stored in, but that doesn't mean that possession gets to suddenly break the rules.

[Karoline]

I don't know what all the argument is about, Muspellsheimr pointed it out quite clearly. The rules state very plainly "You can never have a stat above your augmented maximum." and possession fails to state any kind of exception to this. If there was actually supposed to be an exception, then the errata should have included it. If it was RAI, it could have easily become RAW by now. Since it hasn't, well, seems fairly plain what the rules are.

[phlapjack77]

I don't know what all the argument is about, Muspellsheimr pointed it out quite clearly. The rules state very plainly "You can never have a stat above your augmented maximum." and possession fails to state any kind of exception to this. If there was actually supposed to be an exception, then the errata should have included it. If it was RAI, it could have easily become RAW by now. Since it hasn't, well, seems fairly plain what the rules are.

No arguing from me, I don't have a horse in this race (ok, maybe a troll in the race, but not a horse (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

But there are a lot of good discussions about this idea, and I think it's not so cut and dried as it's being portrayed above(unless you use the FAQ).

Here are some links (pbangarth was right, this carcass is well and truly savaged):

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link 4
This is the link I'd been trying to find

[Mäx]

I think it's not so cut and dry as it's being portrayed above

Yes it is, Augmented maximums are a general rule and affect absolutely everything, unless the rules for that something explicitly say otherwise, like the rules for redlining cyberlimbs.

[Dakka Dakka]

Possession does not break Attribute maxima, but we are never told, what the maxima for the combined entity of spirit + vessel actually is. So effectively the don't have one. I agree that it may be unbalancing to use (vessel racial max + spirit Force ) X 1.5, but nowhere does it say that the maximum for the combined entity is equal to the augmented maxima of the vessel.

[Mäx]

Nevermind.

[Dakka Dakka]

The rules don't actually say that. A new entity is created with physical stats equal to stat vessel+stat spirit and the spirits mental and physical attributes. The new entity is controlled by the spirits mind unless channeling is used. this new entity is different from either the spirit alone or the vessel alone. As such we have no clue what that entity's maxima are.

This is just a rehash of several older discussions.

[Laodicea]

The topic is debated enough that I'm not going to assert a view on what is strictly RAW. Both views are legitimate interpretations that can be argued for or against. I will point out a few things, and propose a possible houserule.

The whole discussion gets confused by Inhabitation.
Possession is fundamentally different from Inhabitation, yet mechanically it seems to work almost the same as a Hybrid form Inhabitation Merge. Almost. They're similar enough that the two get mixed up in peoples heads, and understandably so.

Chart Here.

key:
S = Spirits
V = Vessel
F=Force of spirit
AF=Astral Form power
RF=Realistic Form power

This chart that is pretty much RAW with the exception of the Attribute Caps, which is the most debated thing, and also the inclusion of the Vessels spells for a Flesh Form Merge. In a flesh form, you retain all knowledge, skills, and memories, and I believe that should include spells, though its not explicitly stated.

Why grant a Hybrid Form Merge V+F X 1.5? Because it loses Astral Form. That's a big deal.
I would, however, houserule that Hybrid forms do NOT get any bonuses from Wares. However, Street Magic explicitly states that they do. It's not even debatable by RAW, so I didn't include that houserule in the chart.

edit: fixed chart with link to image.

[Raiki]

Quick off-topic question after reading some of the links posted above.

Anyone have any idea/feel like sharing why Frank Trollman got banned? Sorry if this is a touchy subject, and a quick STFU would be heeded...but banning a game developer seems like a silly and ballsy move.




~R~

[Karoline]

Quick off-topic question after reading some of the links posted above.

Anyone have any idea/feel like sharing why Frank Trollman got banned? Sorry if this is a touchy subject, and a quick STFU would be heeded...but banning a game developer seems like a silly and ballsy move.




~R~

Was he? Well, shows how much I know.

[LurkerOutThere]

Quick off-topic question after reading some of the links posted above.

Anyone have any idea/feel like sharing why Frank Trollman got banned? Sorry if this is a touchy subject, and a quick STFU would be heeded...but banning a game developer seems like a silly and ballsy move.
~R~

While I don't pretend to have insider knowledge the basic problem as I understand it was for every 3 or so normal or even helpful posts Frank would do he'd do one that was basically insulting or inflamatory. Then there was the fracas with CGL (of which is till believe he may have flat out made up some junk, but again no insider knowledge). He was basically placed on "No kidding, one more time and your gone." and soon enough he wound up banned. There are some who ascribe politics to the timing of the baning but I don't think there's many who would say that he hadn't deserved it and gotten away with it because DS's moderation team tends to be pretty moderate about their moderation.

In short he was banned because he couldn't control his tone over a long period of time.

[Raiki]

Okay, thanks guys. That clears a few things up for me. I still think it's a loss for the forums, all things considered, but we can't have Dumpshock be just one giant flame war I suppose.




~R~

[Draco18s]

He's like that on other forums too, if the one I saw recently on hacking (fielding an infinite number of agents to "just win") was any indication.

[Raiki]

Yeah, I read that thread myself. He seems like a very intelligent person, and we can never have enough player-designer communication, but I can see how he might come across a bit confrontational.

Frankly (pun not intended), I found his "Hackastack" simultaneously awesome, terrifying and ultimately pointlessly contrived.





~R~

[Adarael]

I think the most...interesting...leap of logic Frank ever made was that for computers to be as universal as the SR4 fiction said they were, it *had* to mean that:
A) The consequences for not having a computer on all the time were dire;
B) Given that you don't need an implanted DNI and the net is wireless, all data can be broadcast at range;
C) Because the consequences must be dire and data can be broadcast at range, Black IC attacks can happen on normal human brains from any range at any time.

Which, y'know, totally ignores the fact that there are different densities of data, different types of encoding, signal strengths, and putting raw Black IC into somebody's brain from 100 meters away is probably going to require so much power it just cooks their entire HEAD... But Frank just didn't want to listen to alternatives. It was like the idea that the disadvantage of not having a computer on COULDN'T be something as simple as having constant communication, tactical bonuses, AR bonuses, direct drones, etc.

[Muspellsheimr]

The rules state very plainly "You can never have a stat above your augmented maximum." and possession fails to state any kind of exception to this.

Nitpick.

Care must be made to distinguish between natural, unmodified attribute
ratings and those augmented by cyberware, bioware, adept powers,
and magic. Generally, augmented ratings are listed in parentheses after
the natural rating, such as: 4 (6).

The rules state very plainly that cyberware, bioware, adept powers, and magic cannot increase a stat above it's augmented maximum. For some reason, drugs & similar are not included in the augmented maximum, Rules as Written.

Possession does not break Attribute maxima, but we are never told, what the maxima for the combined entity of spirit + vessel actually is. So effectively the don't have one. I agree that it may be unbalancing to use (vessel racial max + spirit Force ) X 1.5, but nowhere does it say that the maximum for the combined entity is equal to the augmented maxima of the vessel.

The standard range of natural human attributes is rated on a scale
of 1 to 6, with 3 being average. Physical and Mental attributes have a
maximum natural rating of 6 plus or minus metatype modifiers, depending
on metatype (p. 81). The maximum augmented attribute value for
each metatype is equal to 1.5 times this figure, rounded down (see the
Metatype Attribute Table, p. 81). This also applies to Initiative.

Side Note: Apparently, only metatypes have augmented maximums. If the spirit is possessing a chihuahua, there is no upper limit to what it's attributes can be.

The rules don't actually say that. A new entity is created with physical stats equal to stat vessel+stat spirit and the spirits mental and physical attributes. The new entity is controlled by the spirits mind unless channeling is used. this new entity is different from either the spirit alone or the vessel alone. As such we have no clue what that entity's maxima are.

POSSESSION AND VESSELS
When a spirit possesses a vessel, the com-
bined being that results is dual-natured, has
Immunity to Normal Weapons (p.283, SR4),
and boasts all of the spirit's powers and skills.
Occasionally a possessing spirit's nature mani-
fests through the vessel in an effect similar to
a shamanic mask (p.168, SR4).

Combined ≠ New

Even if an entirely new being was created, possession modifies Physical attributes instead of using a "new" value (see below).

Living Vessels
If the vessel is a living creature, the spirit's
Force is added to the vessel's Physical attributes.
While possessed, the spirit's Mental and Special attributes are used (which means that a pos-
sessed technomancer cannot access Resonance),
with Initiative recalculated as normal (use the
spirit's normal Initiative Passes). The spirit is in
full physical control of the vessel but does not
have access to the host's knowledge, skills, or
experience. The mind of the vessel remains in
whatever state it was when possession began;
if conscious, it becomes an impotent witness
locked inside its own body for the duration.

Added to ≠ Replaced

The effects of Possession are magical in nature (paranormal critter power), and increase (not replace) the Physical attributes of the vessel. There is nothing allowing this to be an exception to the rules on Augmented Maximums. As such, Rules as Written, the Physical attributes of a possessed living being are subject to that being's augmented maximums.

Mental and Special attributes, on the other hand, are replaced with those of the possessing spirit, and as such are not subject to the vessel's augmented maximums.






Just to clear up my position on the matter. What I have stated above is Rules as Written. It is not, however, the rules that I use.

In my games, the attribute augmentation provided by Possession is not limited to the vessel's augmented maximums. This is in addition to a few other important adjustments to spirits (modifiers to the functionality of Hardened Armor & Immunity powers, and using (F÷2, Round Up) instead of (F) for Physical & Mental attributes).

[phlapjack77]

I'm kind of sad that Possession just has the stat increase as a blanket Force addition. Seems like it would be more "flavorful" if the increase were based on the actual spirit physical stats, so if you wanted more Body you would use an Earth spirit, more Agility you would use an Air spirit etc

[Muspellsheimr]

Forgot to mention that - another part of my spirit alterations is that Possession spirits add their Physical attributes to those of the vessel, not their force.

[Yerameyahu]

That makes sense. Does that make the numbers even higher, though?

[Raiki]

Seems like it would, most spirits don't get penalties to their physical stats. If you chose the spirits right, it would never be anything but a bonus.


Edit: Though the fact that he uses Force/2 rather than full Force for attributes would offset that.



~R~

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, I figured. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Laodicea]

Seems like it would, most spirits don't get penalties to their physical stats. If you chose the spirits right, it would never be anything but a bonus.


Edit: Though the fact that he uses Force/2 rather than full Force for attributes would offset that.



~R~

Sort of. You could summon a F1 air spirit and still get a great AGI bonus.

[Yerameyahu]

Perhaps there is some tweaking to be done. I really like the basic idea. Total spirit stat /2, instead of F/2+spirit mod?

[Dakka Dakka]

Side Note: Apparently, only metatypes have augmented maximums. If the spirit is possessing a chihuahua, there is no upper limit to what it's attributes can be.

IIRC in Running Wild animals get augmented maxima. Non-living objects though, indeed have none.

Combined ≠ New

That is debatable. It is clear though that:
Combined ≠ old i.e. the vessel

Even if an entirely new being was created, possession modifies Physical attributes instead of using a "new" value (see below).

This does not change the fact that there are no published maxima of the new being.

Added to ≠ Replaced

Again Added to ≠ remain the same

The effects of Possession are magical in nature (paranormal critter power), and increase (not replace) the Physical attributes of the vessel. There is nothing allowing this to be an exception to the rules on Augmented Maximums.

Agreed.

As such, Rules as Written, the Physical attributes of a possessed living being are subject to that being's augmented maximums.

This is where I disagree. It is a new entity different from both the vessel (alone) and the spirit (alone). As such we simply have not been told what that entity's maxima are. Using the vessel's is just as arbitrary as any other number.

[Laodicea]

This is where I disagree. It is a new entity different from both the vessel (alone) and the spirit (alone). As such we simply have not been told what that entity's maxima are. Using the vessel's is just as arbitrary as any other number.

You're right if you're talking about a hybrid form inhabitation merge. You're wrong if you're talking about possession.

[Dakka Dakka]

You're right if you're talking about a hybrid form inhabitation merge. You're wrong if you're talking about possession.

Then tell me where it says that the combined entity of spirit and possessed vessel use the vessel's maxima.

[Laodicea]

They're not a fundamentally combined entity in the case of possession. The vessels body is the conduit needed for the spirit to be physically present in the world, which grants bonuses to that body. With a hybrid form inhabitation merge, they are indeed one combined entity.

[Yerameyahu]

Lacking clear rules, it makes the most sense to consider a possession to be vessel augmented by spirit.

[phlapjack77]

Lacking clear rules, it makes the most sense to consider a possession to be vessel augmented by spirit.

The links I added a few posts above show that the original intention of the writers of the possession rules was to have no limit. Then later other writers wrote the FAQ to explicitly limit it to vessel augmented max. Here is the relevant writer's comment I keep coming back to.

To me, it makes the most sense to either use the FAQ, or disregarding the FAQ, to use the intent of the writers. YMMV, of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not overly-concerned with original intentions (especially when it's writer-vs.-writer), but it's nice to know.

What I am concerned about is balance and setting, and so I like the idea of varied spirit-stats and limited (in some way, perhaps not Augmented Attribute) stats. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It should be a boost; it should not be an apotheosis.

[Draco18s]

Idea: limit it to the spirit's augmented max (their current stats * 1.5).

It would let you blow through the vessel's augmented maximums (9s, for the most part), but at least making the agility twink + the agility spirit not be supergodlike, just wtfamazing.

Or possibly limit it to Force * 1.5 (so a vessel with good AGL and a Spirit with good AGL can still only get up to the spirit's force and a half, so, not much).

[phlapjack77]

I'm not overly-concerned with original intentions (especially when it's writer-vs.-writer), but it's nice to know.

What I am concerned about is balance and setting, and so I like the idea of varied spirit-stats and limited (in some way, perhaps not Augmented Attribute) stats. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It should be a boost; it should not be an apotheosis.

Yeah, I totally agree with you about balance. That's why I think intentions matter here - the writer says that things were playtested with no caps - so to me, that means the balance was considered and tested, and found to be balanced in a no-cap situation. I don't see any information about playtesting with the augmented max caps. There could be, but I don't see any mention of it.

For me, the argument for no caps is the one I agree with. It just doesn't seem like a game-breaker, and considering the down-sides of possession, it seems less-balancing to limit them even more.

[Yerameyahu]

There was playtesting of this product!? Hehe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If it's not unbalancing for your group, that's all that really matters. I hear a lot of people concerned about no-cap possession, so they might want an elegant limitation option. That might be aug-max, or it might be halve-spirit-stats, or something else.

[Draco18s]

There was playtesting of this product!? Hehe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I feel the same way about Team Fortress 2 these days.

And there is testing.

And it makes me sad.

Because it seems everyone wants "more stuff" where TF2 was never supposed to be about "stuff."