Amazonia, Lets talk about Amazonia Options

[sabs]

This is for discussing what Amazonia actually looks like.

The country, the cities, the people.

If someone beats me to it, can someone post a basic deal from the SoLA.

[TBRMInsanity]

SoLA isn't out. I doubt it ever will be (even though most of us still want it). Most of the info from SoLA is in War if I remember correctly.

As for Amazonia I imagine it is Ecocracy (Rule by Nature). The dragons and shamans of the nation dictate national policy and because they are the strongest faction in the country, their word is law. Most of the corporate interests are located on the coast (along with the largest centre of metahumans).

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

The Amazonia draft for SoLA was never released, all we have is Ancient History's draft for 6WA that is two pages only focusing on the cities.

To me, Amazonia is similat to how some of the Native American nations look like, HUGE AREAS with no human population, returned to nature, and some major cities that people were evacuated to.
Metrópole (that I would consider not only being São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, but the rest of the Southeast states too, Minas Gerais and Espírito Santo is the most populated region of Amazonia. Pantanal and Legal Amazonia were all pretty much evacuated, with the exception of a few cities (Manaus, Belém, Campo Grande, etc).

That being said, I still think that the industry of São Paulo would be kept. Quite possibly with draconian enviromental legislation, reducing productivity, but I guess it would still be there.

[sabs]

I could have sworn there was a SoLA in 3rd edition? Am I miss remembering.

I'll have to search my harddrive.

[Fatum]

I could have sworn there was a SoLA in 3rd edition? Am I miss remembering.

I'll have to search my harddrive.

SoLA is a ghost book, it's never seen print. We've gathered what drafts the authors have made available here, in this very section of this very forum.
But yeah, seems like the only thing we have on Amazonia is a 6WA draft with only a couple of cities described.

The way I see Amazonia is like some NAN states - that is, first, very strong in everything that comes to magic (including great blood magic rituals like the one making the jungle grow so fast), second, very ecologically conscious, but not to the point of not having an industry. Rather, since they don't recognize the Business Accords, an inspection can drop on the head of any corp working in the country, and thoroughly check if the practices they engage in are really as ecologically friendly as they sounded when Hoalpa allowed the construction; that sort of thing.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Ok, finally had the chance to read the Aztlan sourcebook and somethings don't make sense from the start.
In this book, it is said, by jungle cat, that Bogotá belongs to Amazonia.
Considering this as fact, then questions arise:

1- Why would Amazonia permit Aztechnology buy land in Bogotá, as it is said in 'War!'?
2- Why Amazonia didn't declare war against Aztlan in the first place when they bombed Bogotá's Congress WITH CONGRESSMEN INSIDE and would have all the PR favoring them, instead of waiting 1 whole year to be caught with the hand stuck in the cookie jar with the whole Sangre del Drago facility incident?

I invoke Chewbacca defense here...

[sabs]

Ok, finally had the chance to read the Aztlan sourcebook and somethings doesn't make sense from the start.
In this book, it is said, by jungle cat, that Bogotá belongs to Amazonia.
Considering this as fact, then questions arise:

1- Why would Amazonia permit Aztechnology by land in Bogotá, as it is said in 'War!'?
2- Why Amazonia didn't declare war against Aztlan in the first place when they bombed Bogotá's Congress WITH CONGRESSMEN INSIDE and would have all the PR favoring them, instead of waiting 1 whole year to be caught with the hand stuck in the cookie jar with the whole Sangre del Drago facility incident?

I invoke Chewbacca defense here...

Colombia switches hands a couple of times from 2050 to 2073.

1) It starts off as Colombia
2) Amazonia takes it over when they take over the rest of South America
3) Aztlan 'frees' it, and it becomes an independent buffer state.
4) Aztlan gives up all pretense and makes it a New State inside Aztlan.
5) Trees! harhar! -> war

I believe that everything going on in Ghost Cartels happens after point 4.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Uhm, ok. Then when exactly, does 3) happens?

The timeline in War!, page 21 says this:

2049-2050—Amazonia and Aztlan clash in violent battles in Colombia and Venezuela. The two nations come to terms in 2050, recognizing the new borders of each nation, and a cease-fire is enacted. That cease-fire also established Caracas as a free city, and Bogotá and its surrounding region as a buffer zone between Aztlan and Amazonia.

It actually says Bogotá and vicinities were supposed to be an independent nation again. Which would not make sense, at least to me...

So, bogotá is turned independent, Aztechnology begins buying land around the city. And the colombians just sit and watch?
They could have asked for UN and CC support and I'm pretty sure that the corps (Ares and Saeder-Krupp specially) would gladly help Bogotá against this "subtle invasion" in exchange for a few acres of land just to piss of Aztlan (in the case of Ares) and Hualpa (in the case of Saeder-Krupp)...

[sabs]

The Colombians petitioned to become part of Aztlan in the SR3 timeline, I believe.

I'm redownloading all my sr3 books, to see if I can find it.

The german guy with the cool world map with a timeline slider has the colombia stuff in there.

But I can't see the website from work.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Also, here comes the southern border of Aztlan as of 2056:

Aztlan's territory includes the central american nations formerly known as Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua and Panama. It abuts the nation of Amazonia along a border that sweeps down from the southern tip of Lake Maracaibo (once Venezuela), runs south of Bucaramanga (Colombia), and passes just north of Bogotá. At that point the border swings west, passing 50 kilometers south of Cali to strike the Pacific Coast on the Bahia Chocó. The border with Amazonia places a small portion of old Venezuela and about half of what used to be Colombia within Aztlan.

Following this, a shadowtalker says that Bogotá is officialy inside Amazonia but she would call it "disputed territory".

Then Jungle Cat says: The Aztlaners know better than to contest Bogotá.

[sabs]

Jungle Cat is an Amazonian Shill though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So he could be 'fronting' pretty badly. It wouldn't be the first time a shadowtalker does that.


And yes, in the 2050's Bogota is in Amazonia.
In the 2060's it first becomes an independent state, and then petitions to join Aztlan.

I wish I had my sr3 books with me.

Gah that border is so so so so stupid.
The borders should be from the southern tip of Lake Maracaibos, and then along the Mountains.
This makes Bogota a border town that could really go either way.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Gah that border is so so so so stupid.
The borders should be from the southern tip of Lake Maracaibos, and then along the Mountains.
This makes Bogota a border town that could really go either way.

Agreed! Oh well, I'm stuck at this point writing about the Amazonian Military to decide where the border begins and ends and decide how technological they will be too.

Edit: Also, sabs, the map made by lokii does not mention Bogotá changing sides. It shows when Amazonia conquers all Venezuela and half Colombia and when Aztlan "liberates" a chunk of Venezuela.

[sabs]

I'll have to look. There is a spot where the northern part of Colombia becomes a Free state, and then becomes part of Aztlan. Is Bogota really going to stay Amazonian when Amazonia has no way of exerting influence on it?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Why Amazonia would have no way of exerting influence over Bogotá? And for that matter, why Aztlan would do better?
Honest curiosity here, really.

[sabs]

Well it depends on the Military of Amazonia.

But the basics?

Look at the Map. There's about 50 miles of Mountain, with only a handful of useable passes where you could move significant equipment and personnel.

There's a giant Cloud Forest, there's huge mountains. One of the few viable ways is going through Route 40. Look at Bogota, and the roads leading from it going E and SE there just aren't that many.

And it's against Amazonia's abandoned jungle/back to nature areas.

If we go with the idea that most of Amazonia's Metahumanity is in Metropole. Most everything is two thousand miles away from the industrial center. It's a logistical nightmare for Amazonia.

Again, depending on their military.

Bogota is also 200 miles from the Coast, so using an Aircraft Carrier to exert control is problematic. (And way easier for Aztlan to do than Amazonia)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Point taken. They could still have air bases though. But yeah, it is not that cheap to do it...

But then again, it would be up to Hualpa and Sirrurg how much they would be willing to give up and let Aztlan take.

[sabs]

Do Hualpa and Sirrug give a flying wet far about Stuff outside the Amazon basin?

That's definitely the question of the day. To me, that answer will guide how the war should play out.

I mean, if I'm Those Great Dragons, instead of using Magic to make jungle cover climb up the mountains. I'm just going to make the mountains higher, and more impassible. Encourage Wyverns or something else equally dangerous to live there and cause trouble for any passing airplanes.

Caracas? Maracaibos? Those are worth getting. That's flat flood plains between Aztlan and my Jungle.

MY Jungle.
Hualga is going to play this like Lofwyr would. You want to come play in /my/ House. I'm going to bring it. You want to threaten /my/ Domain? Oh hell no... it's on.

But not in a Ghostwalker Godzilla way. He's not going to show up personally. Not against anti-air missiles.

But the mountains? Meh.. unless there's a compelling reason why those don't make a good natural border.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Do Hualpa and Sirrug give a flying wet far about Stuff outside the Amazon basin?

That's definitely the question of the day. To me, that answer will guide how the war should play out.

I believe they do. There was always the impression that the fight between Amazonia and Aztlan was more than political divergences and more like a personal grudge between Hualpa, Sirrurg and whatever it is that controls Aztlan from the shadows.

But not in a Ghostwalker Godzilla way. He's not going to show up personally. Not against anti-air missiles.

Agreed, while I can see Sirrurg taking matters into its own hands, er, claws, I think Hualpa would use the metahumans and other minions to accomplish this.

But the mountains? Meh.. unless there's a compelling reason why those don't make a good natural border.

And in the end would be a matter of who would want the mountains. I think a better natural border would be the Magdalena River in the valley between Bogotá and Medellin.

[sabs]

The only problem with using that River as a natural border. In today's (2072) warfare environment, a river does not pose a significant boundary or obstacle. I can LAV over a river quite easily. I can have a temporary bridge up over parts of it rather easily. Impassable Mountains, are still, that. And it's easier to narrow that down.

Now, maybe Sirrug and Hualpa want to push to the Panama Canal. All of South America as a Domain for them to control. That's not unreasonable. It's.. grandiose, and hard to pull off, but it's not unreasonable.

Certainly South America is the /easiest/ Continent to control in that way. There's only 1 small land bridge connection. One side is completely cut off by a set of really unfortunate mountains. The otherside requires only a good Coastal Navy. The plan has merit.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

The only problem with using that River as a natural border. In today's (2072) warfare environment, a river does not pose a significant boundary or obstacle. I can LAV over a river quite easily. I can have a temporary bridge up over parts of it rather easily. Impassable Mountains, are still, that. And it's easier to narrow that down.

For two warmonger nations, yeah, a river is a problem and I agree with you. I just think the river would make a natural border easier to draw.

Now, maybe Sirrug and Hualpa want to push to the Panama Canal. All of South America as a Domain for them to control. That's not unreasonable. It's.. grandiose, and hard to pull off, but it's not unreasonable.

Their objective is the totallity of South America, Europe and a thirde continent of their choice? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But yes, I think their plan, besides anihillation of Aztlan, would take control of South America as far as Panama.

Certainly South America is the /easiest/ Continent to control in that way. There's only 1 small land bridge connection. One side is completely cut off by a set of really unfortunate mountains. The otherside requires only a good Coastal Navy. The plan has merit.

Indeed it has. So, are we supposed to believe that Sirrurg and Hualpa plan is to push Aztlan back to Panama?

[sabs]

For two warmonger nations, yeah, a river is a problem and I agree with you. I just think the river would make a natural border easier to draw.



Their objective is the totallity of South America, Europe and a thirde continent of their choice? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But yes, I think their plan, besides anihillation of Aztlan, would take control of South America as far as Panama.



Indeed it has. So, are we supposed to believe that Sirrurg and Hualpa plan is to push Aztlan back to Panama?

I dunno, Plan vs Pull Off is of course completely different.
Aztlan isn't a push over.

It's a possibility. Personally, I would say that Sirrurg and Hualpa are happy controlling the Amazonian Basin.

So Bolivia, Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela, Guinea, French Guinea, Suriname.. and call it a day.

I don't think Annihilation of Aztlan is a viable Goal. It's too big, too entrenched, and people would start lobbing Thor Shots before they got north of Nicaragua.

[Nath]

Caracas? Maracaibos? Those are worth getting. That's flat flood plains between Aztlan and my Jungle.

Caracas ain't exactly a "flat flood plain". While being less than 15 kilometers away from the sea, Caracas lies above 800 meters, and the surrounding low mountains stand between 1,000 and 2,500 meters.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

So Bolivia, Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela, Guinea, French Guinea, Suriname.. and call it a day.

Bolivia, Paraguay and Argentina are not theirs yet.
Besides, you forgot Peru, Chile and Equador to the list. Or are we letting the Andes out of the equation?

Also, I know it is never described (which is a shame, really), but I think that Bolivia would have a lot of corps strip mining for lithium to create batteries for everything. While the wealthy are still wealthy, the poor and SINless work in precarious conditions in these mines.

[sabs]

Caracas ain't exactly a "flat flood plain". While being less than 15 kilometers away from the sea, Caracas lies above 800 meters, and the surrounding low mountains stand between 1,000 and 2,500 meters.

Yes, the Amazon basin is surrounded by hills/mountains. I'm saying Caracas might even be the outer edge. But it's certainly flatter than say 3000-4000 meters up. Look at the Google Maps, see Route 13? Everything south of that is flat. Yes, Caracas is in low mountains. Most of that Coast is mountainous. But compared to the Andes, it's kind of a joke.


I was thinking that They might see the Andes as a nice buffer/border and leave it at that.

I know that Argentina, Bolivia, aren't theirs yet. Although, I'm not sure why not. I was saying I think that goal, is more realistic than "everything south of Panama"

Bolivia should really be strip mining and doing horrible things, and shipping that stuff West into Chile. I can see Hualpa getting ready to send his troops into Bolivia because of the mining run off being thrown into the Amazon Basin, but being unable to, because he's busy with Aztlan.

[sabs]

In order to establish what Amazonia looks like, and what they're up to. We have to decide whats' up with the rest of South America.

Argentina
Peru
Chile
Paraguay
Bolivia

What do those countries look like, how did they survive the original creation of Amazonia. Why did Amazonia take Uruguay and not Paraguay.

Why did Bolivia do to stay independent, when even Colombia couldn't pull it off.