Two-weapon fighting with dual Reach 2 weapons ?, The rule says no. But could trolls use them one-handed ? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Quake]

On page 163 of Arsenal :

In order to use two weapons in melee combat, each weapon
must have a Reach of 0 or 1.

But trolls being big, their penalties are reduced for wielding two-handed weapons in one hand (which seems to be the case for most Reach 2 weapons). Would this make sense, given their sheer size, to be able to go beyond this limit of Reach 1 ? (by accepting the small penalties)

For example : would you allow a troll-sized character to wield two "Reach 2" melee weapons (nodachi, combat axe, etc.) including an assault rifle equipped with a bayonet ?

Obviously a nodachi can be swapped for a smaller weapon like a katana or vibro sword. But this is especially problematic for bayonets, which only come with Reach 2.

This would allow a character with "Two weapon style" to use only the Blade skill for both defensive weapons (instead of improvised clubs, as with Melee hardening), and gain the benefit of higher reach as well.

[Dahrken]

While the penalties for using a two-handed weapon single-handedly are reduced for a troll, they are not eliminated. So IMHO no, as two two-handed weapons would be too unwieldy to allow two-weapon figthing. Besides when dual-wielding two 1 reach weapon they have an effective reach of 2, already giving them a sgnificative advantage over a dual-wielding smaller metatype.

[Fatum]

Sure, why not.

[Stahlseele]

Is it really worth it for . . what?
2 dice more? *thinks* what the hell am i asking?
OF COURSE IT IS!
Now take elongated limbs and attach them to your legs for 5 Reach ^^

[Neraph]

Sure, why not.

/agree

[Yerameyahu]

Quake, you're such a munchkin. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

RAW, no. It specifically says Reach 0 or 1.

On a side note, two-weapon fighting with a bayonet on an assault rifle feels extremely cheesy.

Final answer: you can do anything the GM houserules.

[Neraph]

On a side note, two-weapon fighting with a bayonet on an assault rifle feels extremely cheesy.

You can always RAWfully have underslung daggers modded onto your pistols.

[Yerameyahu]

And it has the benefit of being slightly (only slightly) more believable.

[KarmaInferno]

Daggerpistols!




-k

[Stahlseele]

blade does not extend far enough.
only marginally useable for slashing motions, no punching damage.

[Yerameyahu]

It's a hand-axe, duh. Chop with it. The real reason is for parrying anyway (in SR).

[Neraph]

Alternatively you can underbarrel a gun in a sword.

[Yerameyahu]

No, you can't. Swords don't have barrels, silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Stahlseele]

No, you can't. Swords don't have barrels, silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

ahem:
http://www.thomas-galvin.com/blog/wp-conte...08/GunBlade.jpg
^^
<.<
http://www.thomas-galvin.com/blog/?m=200708
you may need to scroll down a bit

[Yerameyahu]

That's a gunblade. Not a sword, to which an 'underbarrel gun' is being added. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

it is a blade with a barrel ^^
i guess one could do something like that with a shotgun for example.
don't make it pump action though . . trust me on this one ^^

[sabs]

The traditional way to parry with a hand axe, is to chop the person's hand off.

[Yerameyahu]

That's why it's called a hand axe, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Neraph]

No, you can't. Swords don't have barrels, silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

It is also possible to install this system into melee and other unconventional weapons - popular options include... and smart swords with a small pistol in the hilt to fire a bullet along the blade, ect.

Yes you can.

[Yerameyahu]

You're no fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) See, I was saying that it's not underbarrel because there's no bar—you know what, forget it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Stahlseele]

*snickers* poor guy ^^

[Fatum]

And that is the bad, bad place where excessive pedantry brings.

[PiXeL01]

Yerameyahu, you worry too much about the literal sense of words and semantics (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Where is your sense of adventure and experimentation!?!

I dont see a problem with a specially constructed gun to fit along the side of a blade. Though technically it wouldnt be an "underbarrel"-weapon it is still something fitted "under" the main weapon ^^

back to the topic: Sure, go ahead. Logically Trolls are big enough to be able to pull off something like that. I just wouldnt allow them to do it with staffs or polearms though ^^

[Quake]

Quake, you're such a munchkin. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm not a munchkin, he is. And he's way ahead of the bayonet, he even has an underbarrel chainsaw. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Neraph]

*cough cough* .... I statted a chainsword up. And a Lancer. And a Gatling Laser. And a Grammaton Cleric who's a troll using sniper rifles. And the Blood Lord. And and and....

I actually thought you were going to link back to one of my threads with that.

[Stahlseele]

Troll. Reach 2
Elongated Limbs. Reach 3
Pole-Arm of any kind. Reach 5
Attach Monofilament-Chainsaw on top of it.
Whirl around untill people start taking anti tank weapons to your hide.

[Neraph]

Or any direct combat spell targeting your Willpower.

[IcyCool]

I dont see a problem with a specially constructed gun to fit along the side of a blade. Though technically it wouldnt be an "underbarrel"-weapon it is still something fitted "under" the main weapon ^^

Depends on how one holds the sword, doesn't it? The attached gun could be under, side, or top-mounted with a twist of the wrist! And what happens if the sword is held at a slant?

Madness I tell you! MADNESS!

[Quake]

*cough cough*

or blame the search engine. Sue Games Workshop. Amass a pile of skulls

(Though I *did* fall upon the underbarrel weapon thread with the chainsword a bit after.)

...

Really, except the sweet luxury of Reach 2 weapons (both offensively and defensively) in the hands of a troll, it's also a matter of finding a "Blade" skill weapon for a gun to be able to dual-wield two blades and defensive bonuses while shooting/attacking. The bayonet seemed fine, but it's Reach 2. So goes the question of this thread.

Or else, I'll end up giving up Blades and going for Clubs (a Mace and a Melee hardened gun).
But... Blades have more style, eh ? (Even munchkins strive for style (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) )

[Omenowl]

Troll. Reach 2
Elongated Limbs. Reach 3
Pole-Arm of any kind. Reach 5
Attach Monofilament-Chainsaw on top of it.
Whirl around untill people start taking anti tank weapons to your hide.

Reach
Certain weapons (or the arms of a troll) are longer
and allow an attacker to hit a target from a greater
distance, giving him a slight edge in melee combat.
Weapons with this feature have a Reach rating of 1–4.
When one melee fighter has a reach advantage over
his opponent, he can choose to apply that reach offensively
(attacking from a distance) or defensively
(keeping his opponent at bay). Every point of Reach
translates into a +/–1 dice pool modifier.

This seems to imply that there is a maximum reach of 4. Even dragons only get a reach of +2.

[Yerameyahu]

Weapon Reach is max 4. That's not the same as all Reach.

[Neraph]

Really, except the sweet luxury of Reach 2 weapons (both offensively and defensively) in the hands of a troll, it's also a matter of finding a "Blade" skill weapon for a gun to be able to dual-wield two blades and defensive bonuses while shooting/attacking. The bayonet seemed fine, but it's Reach 2. So goes the question of this thread.

Or else, I'll end up giving up Blades and going for Clubs (a Mace and a Melee hardened gun).
But... Blades have more style, eh ? (Even munchkins strive for style (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) )

Back to my archives...

Gunblade

[ Spoiler ]

Sword (1 Reach; [Str/2+3]P) [4R, 350]
[1 Slot] Personalized Grip [2, 100]
[3 Slots] Underbarrel Weapon [As Weapon]
Ares Predator IV (5P; -1 AP; SA; 15[c]) [4R, 350]
[1 Slot] Personalized Grip [2, 100]
Av: 4R
Cost: 900
Notes: The Ares Predator has a clip size of 8 rounds.

Vibro-Lasblade

[ Spoiler ]

Vibro Blade, Sword (1 Reach; [Str/2+4]P; -2 AP) [8F, 2,000]
[1 Slot] Custom Look R2 [8, 1,000]
[1 Slot] Personalized Grip [2, 100]
[3 Slots] Underbarrel Weapon [As Weapon]
Ares Redline (5P; -1/2 AP; SA; 1 PP/Shot) [14F, 7,500]
[1 Slot] Smartgun System [6R, 7,500]
Av: 14F
Cost: 18,100
Notes: Due to the ammo reduction, the Redline pistol may only be fired if equipped to a satchel pack or power backpack by attaching the cable to the pommel of the vibro sword. The vibro sword's battery is independant of the pistol.

[Bodak]

Troll. Reach 2
Elongated Limbs. Reach 3
Pole-Arm of any kind. Reach 5
Attach Monofilament-Chainsaw on top of it.
Whirl around untill people start taking anti tank weapons to your hide.

What kind of troll is that with base Reach of 2?

A Bear shapeshifter Troll?

[Stahlseele]

Ah, right, my bad, i forgot that everybody starts at reach 0 not reach 1 <.<

[Manunancy]

Allowing a troll to dual wield reach 2 weapons is envisageable - though he'd probably face an extra penalty.

But I'd specifically forbid the suggested bayonet rifle. Why ? Because a modern rifle is designed to be fired. The handles and grips are desgned for firing the weapon rather than using it as a melee weapon. This means they require two hands to wield because of that issue rather than mere size. Pack a bayonet on a bullpup assault riffle and the resulting combo will be shorter that some one-handers, while still requiring two hands to control.

To sum up a driffle can fired two-handed fine, fired one-handed or used in melee with some problems and would suck to the point of uselesness at one-handed melee.

The mentionned bayonetted (or otherwise melee-improved) pistols can't be used as reference bacause they're baiscally designed to be used one-handed.

[Quake]

The mentionned bayonetted (or otherwise melee-improved) pistols can't be used as reference bacause they're baiscally designed to be used one-handed.

If we took a SMG instead ? It's 'designed to be used one-handed', and an integral knife (not just an addon like the bayonet) could be foreseeable as an underbarrel Blade weapon ?

Of course, Neraph shows examples of melee weapon equipped with underbarrel ranged weapons. But, this makes them more like "backup" ranged weapons, and I'm more interested in a main hand ranged weapon that can act as a backup melee Blade weapon to accompany the off-hand that holds the sword (obviously the sword could also have a gun on it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) )... and getting the Two-weapon style defensive benefits, as well as style point.

What kind of troll is that with base Reach of 2?

A sasobonsam ghoul-troll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Neraph]

But I'd specifically forbid the suggested bayonet rifle. Why ? Because a modern rifle is designed to be fired. The handles and grips are desgned for firing the weapon rather than using it as a melee weapon. This means they require two hands to wield because of that issue rather than mere size. Pack a bayonet on a bullpup assault riffle and the resulting combo will be shorter that some one-handers, while still requiring two hands to control.

This is already summed up in a -2 dicepool modifier for trying it, which is reduced to a -1 for trolls. Nice try.

EDIT: War! has an Ares Alpha that comes stock with an underbarrel vibro sword. You should look into that one.

[KarmaInferno]

ahem:
http://www.thomas-galvin.com/blog/wp-conte...08/GunBlade.jpg
^^
<.<
http://www.thomas-galvin.com/blog/?m=200708
you may need to scroll down a bit

That's a gunblade. Not a sword, to which an 'underbarrel gun' is being added. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

More pedantry!

The design is wrong for a GunBlade. GunBlades don't have barrels, as the design intent is for a powder charge to detonate at the moment you impact an opponent with the blade, sending a shockwave through the blade to theorectically cause more damage.

Yes, it's a silly idea, but that's how they're supposed to work.




-k

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Mine *wasn't* pedantry, anyway. It was joking-ry.

For the record, I prefer rocket-axes!

[Manunancy]

This is already summed up in a -2 dicepool modifier for trying it, which is reduced to a -1 for trolls. Nice try.

EDIT: War! has an Ares Alpha that comes stock with an underbarrel vibro sword. You should look into that one.

Melee weapons (be they spears, mauls, two-handed swords or whatever) don't differ much in their configuration from their one-handed version which lets a troll handle them one-handed. Guns are another kettle of fish - the pistol grip lends itself somewhat to firing the rifle one-handed, but the stance used for a bayoneted rifle doesn't translate as easily. If I remember the rules right, the -2 modifer reduced to -1 for trolls is for firing a gun, not for handling it in melee.

Picture a gun with a bayonet fitted on. Handlig it with two hands usually means one hand on the pistol grip and the other holding the barrel, using the gun somewhat like a short spear. Now try to imagine how you'd wield it one-handed - the pistol grip is perpendicular to the weapons. The only melee weapon with that sort of grips that come to mind is a tonfa, but the trigger guard and the butt don't let you pull most tonfa moves. I can see only two ways to get arouns the problem. One is to grab the barell to use the gun as a club - a great way to ruin it. The other would be to grab the barrel just in front of the magazine pit or the sights/scope dependign on the weapon's configuration. Which is somewhere i nth middle of the weapon, reudcing the reach to that of a one-hander at best.

The vibro-sword equiped Ares alpha you're mentioning seems a variation on the bayonet - though I wonder how the gun's sights zeroing will fare with the sowrd's vibration

[IcyCool]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Mine *wasn't* pedantry, anyway. It was joking-ry.

For the record, I prefer rocket-axes!

You could always go the old Games Workshop Gorkamorka route, and use stick grenades as clubs!

[Yerameyahu]

I agree: bigger, stronger hands doesn't seem enough to compensate for single-handed rifle/bayonet use. The listed penalty makes for sense for things like two-handed swords, spears, etc., where one big strong hand *does* fit.

[ProfGast]

You could always go the old Games Workshop Gorkamorka route, and use stick grenades as clubs!

Bah! What is here and there about Gunblades? Rocket-Axes? USE THE GUNHAMMER
Scale size for a person shown (badly) here

[Yerameyahu]

A rocket-axe is the same thing as a gun-hammer, broadly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Also, rocket-hammer… I think they have them in Halo? Whatever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Quake]

Ido's "rocket-pick-axe" from Gunnm also fits the bill.

[Digital Heroin]

Troll. Reach 2
Elongated Limbs. Reach 3
Pole-Arm of any kind. Reach 5
Attach Monofilament-Chainsaw on top of it.
Whirl around untill people start taking anti tank weapons to your hide.

/shudder

I suddently recall LMGP6 (Living Minigun Platform 6), my Shiva-armed articulating weapon arm packing troll who used six miniguns and specialized in supressing fire and intimidation.

[Fatum]

You forget that trolls have hands much larger than those of other metahumans. So they could easily grab the rifle by the butt around the place it connects to the gun body, using it like you'd use a spear.

[Stahlseele]

/shudder

I suddently recall LMGP6 (Living Minigun Platform 6), my Shiva-armed articulating weapon arm packing troll who used six miniguns and specialized in supressing fire and intimidation.

Wat? O.o

Also:
Rocket Propelled Chainsaw

[Manunancy]

You forget that trolls have hands much larger than those of other metahumans. So they could easily grab the rifle by the butt around the place it connects to the gun body, using it like you'd use a spear.

With an human-sized gun maybe - but with troll-adapted weapon, they would face the same problems as an human with an human-sized gun.

But even if they could manage the gun, how would they fire the damn thing ? A smartlinked gun could be ordered to fire, but I doubt you'd hit anyhing with it.

The only somewhat realistic way would be to have an ingram-like gun reinforced for melee and used as the crosspiece of a regular weapon. Though it won't be good foir much beyond spray and pray.

[Fatum]

If it's a troll-adapted weapon, all the better - you have so much space, you can put an extra handle for melee on it.
And we're not talking simultaneously using the bayonet and shooting here, are we.

[Yerameyahu]

Aren't we? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

Melee weapons (be they spears, mauls, two-handed swords or whatever) don't differ much in their configuration from their one-handed version which lets a troll handle them one-handed. Guns are another kettle of fish - the pistol grip lends itself somewhat to firing the rifle one-handed, but the stance used for a bayoneted rifle doesn't translate as easily. If I remember the rules right, the -2 modifer reduced to -1 for trolls is for firing a gun, not for handling it in melee.

Picture a gun with a bayonet fitted on. Handlig it with two hands usually means one hand on the pistol grip and the other holding the barrel, using the gun somewhat like a short spear. Now try to imagine how you'd wield it one-handed - the pistol grip is perpendicular to the weapons. The only melee weapon with that sort of grips that come to mind is a tonfa, but the trigger guard and the butt don't let you pull most tonfa moves. I can see only two ways to get arouns the problem. One is to grab the barell to use the gun as a club - a great way to ruin it. The other would be to grab the barrel just in front of the magazine pit or the sights/scope dependign on the weapon's configuration. Which is somewhere i nth middle of the weapon, reudcing the reach to that of a one-hander at best.

The vibro-sword equiped Ares alpha you're mentioning seems a variation on the bayonet - though I wonder how the gun's sights zeroing will fare with the sowrd's vibration

Ok. Page 162 of Arsenal lists penalties for using a 2 handed firearm in one hand. Page 161 lists penalties for using a 2 handed melee weapon in one hand. Both sets of penalties are the same, except for the DV penalty to firearms. Trolls halve both the -2 penalty for 1-handing 2-handed firearms and the -2 pentalty and damage for melee weapons.

Mechanically identical to what I said.

Also, the Bravo (vibro-Alpha) probably has some sort of smart-material on the connecting piece for the sword to the gun that would not make the whole of the weapon vibrate. This is 2072-73 with the world's best weapons manufacturer. I'm sure they're smarter than that.

[Fatum]

Well, they are not smarter than replacing a grenade launcher with a vibro-sword or a stun-button.

[Omenowl]

Grenades are great if the fighting is not close and you are not worried about collateral damage

[Seth]

Back to the comment on Dagger Pistols

If you go to the "Armoury", and awesome museum in Leeds, England they have examples of dagger pistols. My favourite is a pistol with a knuckle duster handle, a pistol out of the end. Its in the hold pistol section along with lemon squeezers and other fun things.

The fact that people actually made and used them makes them more believable I think.

Back to dual wielding with long reach weapons. Pikemen would often hold a dagger in their off hand while wielding the pike. This was so that if someone stepped inside their reach (a concept which sadly shadowrun doesn't have), you can drop the polearm and you are already holding a dagger. That I think is about the limit of people "dual wielding" reach weapons. I take the point about trolls, but in shadowrun they are only slightly bigger than people, so I see no need for special rules

[Fatum]

Grenades are great if the fighting is not close and you are not worried about collateral damage

For close fighting there are always gas and splash grenades. And don't say there's no way not to harm yourself in the process.

[Neraph]

I take the point about trolls, but in shadowrun they are only slightly bigger than people, so I see no need for special rules

Trolls are this guy, +200 lbs of muscle. They are much more than "slightly bigger than people."

Yes, they can dual-wield Reach 2 weapons just fine.

[Yerameyahu]

Not by the RAW.

[Stahlseele]

They can handle 2h weapons one handed without problems. at least shooty stuffs.

[Yerameyahu]

They can. But they can't do Two Weapon Melee Combat with Reach 2 weapons. They can, of course, carry two such weapons, using them alternately between Action Phases. Again, by RAW, which is the limit of my point.

[Medicineman]

I wouldn't mind a Troll fighting with Two No-Dachi or other "light" two handed Swords(especially with a customized Grip).
Two Polearms would be ...unwieldly even for Trolls

They can handle 2h weapons one handed without problems. at least shooty stuffs.

with a -1 in SR4A, not completely effordless (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

with an ambidextrous Dance
Medicineman

[Quake]

2.5 meters is quite tall, 300 kg is quite heavy. I'm quite tall at 1.85 m and 80kg (around 6' 2", 175 lbs), and if there are people taller, it's never by a huge margin (6' 6" is rare). Seriously an 8' 2" guy weighting 661 lbs or more would be quite intimidating to anyone. "Slightly bigger than people" is a pretty big understatement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(And let's not speak of 3m giants.)

[Medicineman]

Trolls are this guy, +200 lbs of muscle. They are much more than "slightly bigger than people."

Yes, they can dual-wield Reach 2 weapons just fine.

One Picture is worth more than a Thousand Words (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

he who mimes dancing
Medicineman

[Neraph]

They can. But they can't do Two Weapon Melee Combat with Reach 2 weapons. They can, of course, carry two such weapons, using them alternately between Action Phases. Again, by RAW, which is the limit of my point.

Can you show from page 161 Arsenal where it says you cannot dual wield 2-handed weapons? That's where I'm getting the information to allow using two Reach 2 weapons. Now, you cannot use Two Weapon Style with them, since Two Weapon Style specifically states they need to be Reach 0 or 1, but that's not saying that you can't dual wield at all with them.

[Yerameyahu]

That is what I'm referring to, nothing else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think I made it very explicit in my previous post, in fact, which you quoted.

The distinction is, as I pointed out, that you cannot use both at the same time: not for attacking, not for parrying, no +1 defense, etc. For any given Action Phase, you're either using one or the other.

[Neraph]

Ahh, since the "Style" was missing I was confused. I thought you were asserting that you cannot dual wield 2-handers at all.

So sword-pistols work, not bayonett-rifles. And technically the Bravo would work, since the Vibrosword is Reach 1.

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, it depends on your wording. I don't think 'Style' is obligatory, but if 'wield' means 'carry', then you *can*. If 'wield' means 'use in the same Action Phase for any purpose', then you *can't*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And again, this is merely RAW, so it doesn't really matter in play.

[Neraph]

Eh, I'd disagree with you slightly there. I don't remember seeing a specific rule saying you can't two weapon fight with Reach 2 weapons, only that the specific Two Weapon Style martial arts maneuver is unavailable unless you're using Reach 0 or 1 weapons. It may simply be that I'm fuzzy on the rules, and I'm actually getting ready for work ATM, but I was talking about TWF in general, not a specific maneuver.

[Yerameyahu]

No one is talking about "Two Weapon Style martial arts maneuver". The referenced page (Arsenal p163) is about any two-weapon melee combat. I'd actually forgotten there was a maneuver (which is completely separate on p160). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Now that I check, I see that they do indeed use the same wording:

p160: "In order to use two weapons, each weapon must have a Reach of 0 or 1."

p163: "In order to use two weapons in melee combat, each weapon must have a Reach of 0 or 1."

So that explains the confusion, though Quake did specifically point out p163. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Quake]

You ganked my Rules-Fu attempt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Yeah, the specific ruling was cited in the first post, though it's not a "Core SR4A" ruling (though using Two Weapon Style implicitly involves endorsing pp.160 and 163).

[Yerameyahu]

Anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Like others have said, I'd probably just do a house rule allowing a Troll to use a Reach 2 weapon *that made sense*, an obviously subjective decision that (for me) excludes bayonet-rifles, but includes long swords, etc.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I mean, it depends on your wording. I don't think 'Style' is obligatory, but if 'wield' means 'carry', then you *can*. If 'wield' means 'use in the same Action Phase for any purpose', then you *can't*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And again, this is merely RAW, so it doesn't really matter in play.

Ahhh... but you should STILL be able to use both weapons to attack in a single Complex action, assuming you are attacking more than 1 person within 1 meter of you (though you would still suffer all the possible bonuses and penalties for splitting your dice pool in that way). But yes, You cannot use the Martial Arts Maneuver "Two Weapon Style" for any of its benefits, as the "Style" does not allow this...

[Yerameyahu]

Even that I'm not sure of, TJ, though it probably works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The wording on p163 mentions using both weapons on the same person, but it doesn't necessarily mean its restrictions don't apply to splitting your melee action into two nearby targets.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Even that I'm not sure of, TJ, though it probably works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The wording on p163 mentions using both weapons on the same person, but it doesn't necessarily mean its restrictions don't apply to splitting your melee action into two nearby targets.

And I am evidently still wrong here, because at the end of the relevant section, it is explicit that Reach must be 0 or 1 for the weapon... My mistake... I must have been remembering page 158 of SR4A, where it does not mention weapon size at all...

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, it doesn't mention two weapons at all, there. So we've got a rule for multiple targets, and a rule for two-weapon combat.

[Neraph]

No one is talking about "Two Weapon Style martial arts maneuver". The referenced page (Arsenal p163) is about any two-weapon melee combat. I'd actually forgotten there was a maneuver (which is completely separate on p160). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Now that I check, I see that they do indeed use the same wording:

That explains that then.