On page 163 of Arsenal :



But trolls being big, their penalties are reduced for wielding two-handed weapons in one hand (which seems to be the case for most Reach 2 weapons). Would this make sense, given their sheer size, to be able to go beyond this limit of Reach 1 ? (by accepting the small penalties)

For example : would you allow a troll-sized character to wield two "Reach 2" melee weapons (nodachi, combat axe, etc.) including an assault rifle equipped with a bayonet ?

Obviously a nodachi can be swapped for a smaller weapon like a katana or vibro sword. But this is especially problematic for bayonets, which only come with Reach 2.

This would allow a character with "Two weapon style" to use only the Blade skill for both defensive weapons (instead of improvised clubs, as with Melee hardening), and gain the benefit of higher reach as well.

While the penalties for using a two-handed weapon single-handedly are reduced for a troll, they are not eliminated. So IMHO no, as two two-handed weapons would be too unwieldy to allow two-weapon figthing. Besides when dual-wielding two 1 reach weapon they have an effective reach of 2, already giving them a sgnificative advantage over a dual-wielding smaller metatype.

Sure, why not.

Is it really worth it for . . what?
2 dice more? *thinks* what the hell am i asking?
OF COURSE IT IS!
Now take elongated limbs and attach them to your legs for 5 Reach ^^

/agree

Quake, you're such a munchkin.

RAW, no. It specifically says Reach 0 or 1.

On a side note, two-weapon fighting with a bayonet on an assault rifle feels extremely cheesy.

Final answer: you can do anything the GM houserules.

You can always RAWfully have underslung daggers modded onto your pistols.

And it has the benefit of being slightly (only slightly) more believable.

Daggerpistols!




-k

blade does not extend far enough.
only marginally useable for slashing motions, no punching damage.

It's a hand-axe, duh. Chop with it. The real reason is for parrying anyway (in SR).

Alternatively you can underbarrel a gun in a sword.

No, you can't. Swords don't have barrels, silly.

ahem:
http://www.thomas-galvin.com/blog/wp-conte...08/GunBlade.jpg
^^
<.<
http://www.thomas-galvin.com/blog/?m=200708
you may need to scroll down a bit

That's a gunblade. Not a sword, to which an 'underbarrel gun' is being added.

it is a blade with a barrel ^^
i guess one could do something like that with a shotgun for example.
don't make it pump action though . . trust me on this one ^^

The traditional way to parry with a hand axe, is to chop the person's hand off.

That's why it's called a hand axe, after all.

Yes you can.

You're no fun. See, I was saying that it's not underbarrel because there's no bar—you know what, forget it.

*snickers* poor guy ^^

And that is the bad, bad place where excessive pedantry brings.

Yerameyahu, you worry too much about the literal sense of words and semantics Where is your sense of adventure and experimentation!?!

I dont see a problem with a specially constructed gun to fit along the side of a blade. Though technically it wouldnt be an "underbarrel"-weapon it is still something fitted "under" the main weapon ^^

back to the topic: Sure, go ahead. Logically Trolls are big enough to be able to pull off something like that. I just wouldnt allow them to do it with staffs or polearms though ^^

I'm not a munchkin, he is. And he's way ahead of the bayonet, he even has an underbarrel chainsaw.

*cough cough* .... I statted a chainsword up. And a Lancer. And a Gatling Laser. And a Grammaton Cleric who's a troll using sniper rifles. And the Blood Lord. And and and....

I actually thought you were going to link back to one of my threads with that.

Troll. Reach 2
Elongated Limbs. Reach 3
Pole-Arm of any kind. Reach 5
Attach Monofilament-Chainsaw on top of it.
Whirl around untill people start taking anti tank weapons to your hide.

Or any direct combat spell targeting your Willpower.

Depends on how one holds the sword, doesn't it? The attached gun could be under, side, or top-mounted with a twist of the wrist! And what happens if the sword is held at a slant?

Madness I tell you! MADNESS!

or blame the search engine. Sue Games Workshop. Amass a pile of skulls

(Though I *did* fall upon the underbarrel weapon thread with the chainsword a bit after.)

...

Really, except the sweet luxury of Reach 2 weapons (both offensively and defensively) in the hands of a troll, it's also a matter of finding a "Blade" skill weapon for a gun to be able to dual-wield two blades and defensive bonuses while shooting/attacking. The bayonet seemed fine, but it's Reach 2. So goes the question of this thread.

Or else, I'll end up giving up Blades and going for Clubs (a Mace and a Melee hardened gun).
But... Blades have more style, eh ? (Even munchkins strive for style )

Reach
Certain weapons (or the arms of a troll) are longer
and allow an attacker to hit a target from a greater
distance, giving him a slight edge in melee combat.
Weapons with this feature have a Reach rating of 1–4.
When one melee fighter has a reach advantage over
his opponent, he can choose to apply that reach offensively
(attacking from a distance) or defensively
(keeping his opponent at bay). Every point of Reach
translates into a +/–1 dice pool modifier.

This seems to imply that there is a maximum reach of 4. Even dragons only get a reach of +2.

Weapon Reach is max 4. That's not the same as all Reach.

Back to my archives...

Gunblade


Vibro-Lasblade

What kind of troll is that with base Reach of 2?

A Bear shapeshifter Troll?

Ah, right, my bad, i forgot that everybody starts at reach 0 not reach 1 <.<

Allowing a troll to dual wield reach 2 weapons is envisageable - though he'd probably face an extra penalty.

But I'd specifically forbid the suggested bayonet rifle. Why ? Because a modern rifle is designed to be fired. The handles and grips are desgned for firing the weapon rather than using it as a melee weapon. This means they require two hands to wield because of that issue rather than mere size. Pack a bayonet on a bullpup assault riffle and the resulting combo will be shorter that some one-handers, while still requiring two hands to control.

To sum up a driffle can fired two-handed fine, fired one-handed or used in melee with some problems and would suck to the point of uselesness at one-handed melee.

The mentionned bayonetted (or otherwise melee-improved) pistols can't be used as reference bacause they're baiscally designed to be used one-handed.

If we took a SMG instead ? It's 'designed to be used one-handed', and an integral knife (not just an addon like the bayonet) could be foreseeable as an underbarrel Blade weapon ?

Of course, Neraph shows examples of melee weapon equipped with underbarrel ranged weapons. But, this makes them more like "backup" ranged weapons, and I'm more interested in a main hand ranged weapon that can act as a backup melee Blade weapon to accompany the off-hand that holds the sword (obviously the sword could also have a gun on it... )... and getting the Two-weapon style defensive benefits, as well as style point.



A sasobonsam ghoul-troll.

This is already summed up in a -2 dicepool modifier for trying it, which is reduced to a -1 for trolls. Nice try.

EDIT: War! has an Ares Alpha that comes stock with an underbarrel vibro sword. You should look into that one.

More pedantry!

The design is wrong for a GunBlade. GunBlades don't have barrels, as the design intent is for a powder charge to detonate at the moment you impact an opponent with the blade, sending a shockwave through the blade to theorectically cause more damage.

Yes, it's a silly idea, but that's how they're supposed to work.




-k

Mine *wasn't* pedantry, anyway. It was joking-ry.

For the record, I prefer rocket-axes!

Melee weapons (be they spears, mauls, two-handed swords or whatever) don't differ much in their configuration from their one-handed version which lets a troll handle them one-handed. Guns are another kettle of fish - the pistol grip lends itself somewhat to firing the rifle one-handed, but the stance used for a bayoneted rifle doesn't translate as easily. If I remember the rules right, the -2 modifer reduced to -1 for trolls is for firing a gun, not for handling it in melee.

Picture a gun with a bayonet fitted on. Handlig it with two hands usually means one hand on the pistol grip and the other holding the barrel, using the gun somewhat like a short spear. Now try to imagine how you'd wield it one-handed - the pistol grip is perpendicular to the weapons. The only melee weapon with that sort of grips that come to mind is a tonfa, but the trigger guard and the butt don't let you pull most tonfa moves. I can see only two ways to get arouns the problem. One is to grab the barell to use the gun as a club - a great way to ruin it. The other would be to grab the barrel just in front of the magazine pit or the sights/scope dependign on the weapon's configuration. Which is somewhere i nth middle of the weapon, reudcing the reach to that of a one-hander at best.

The vibro-sword equiped Ares alpha you're mentioning seems a variation on the bayonet - though I wonder how the gun's sights zeroing will fare with the sowrd's vibration

You could always go the old Games Workshop Gorkamorka route, and use stick grenades as clubs!

I agree: bigger, stronger hands doesn't seem enough to compensate for single-handed rifle/bayonet use. The listed penalty makes for sense for things like two-handed swords, spears, etc., where one big strong hand *does* fit.

Bah! What is here and there about Gunblades? Rocket-Axes? USE THE GUNHAMMER
Scale size for a person shown (badly) here

A rocket-axe is the same thing as a gun-hammer, broadly. Also, rocket-hammer… I think they have them in Halo? Whatever.

Ido's "rocket-pick-axe" from Gunnm also fits the bill.

/shudder

I suddently recall LMGP6 (Living Minigun Platform 6), my Shiva-armed articulating weapon arm packing troll who used six miniguns and specialized in supressing fire and intimidation.

You forget that trolls have hands much larger than those of other metahumans. So they could easily grab the rifle by the butt around the place it connects to the gun body, using it like you'd use a spear.

Wat? O.o

Also:
Rocket Propelled Chainsaw

With an human-sized gun maybe - but with troll-adapted weapon, they would face the same problems as an human with an human-sized gun.

But even if they could manage the gun, how would they fire the damn thing ? A smartlinked gun could be ordered to fire, but I doubt you'd hit anyhing with it.

The only somewhat realistic way would be to have an ingram-like gun reinforced for melee and used as the crosspiece of a regular weapon. Though it won't be good foir much beyond spray and pray.

If it's a troll-adapted weapon, all the better - you have so much space, you can put an extra handle for melee on it.
And we're not talking simultaneously using the bayonet and shooting here, are we.