[RL] What can one man do?, 1 vs 40 Options

[PBTHHHHT]

Don't mess with a gurkha.
story link... now fixed

Granted he was able to take them only a couple at a time.

edit: link fixed!

[CanRay]

Link is not broken.

[warrior_allanon]

no crap you dont fsk with a Gurka, it is not conducive to a long and healthy life.....and i havent checked the link, i just know that because like the ROK (Republic of Korea)Marines those are some hard corp crazy mofo's. I spent 4 and a half years in the USMC and learned several things but the biggest was that there is a list of orginizations that you dont fsk with, Ghurka's are very high on that list along with Mossad, SAS, SBS, ROK Marines and Force Recon.

[CanRay]

Ghurkas are still the Queen's personal guard, and for a good reason. They wrote the SAS Training Manual. And are more deadly with those Kukris of theirs than most soldiers are with assault rifles. "The Most Deadly Men On Earth" I've heard them refereed to as, and I don't think I've heard anyone refute that.

One thing that surprised me, when I was touring the armory back home, the unit had awarded the unit a plaque with a pair of crossed Kukris. Unfortunately, the reason for this has been lost to the Regiment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

But, yes, they're the people that all the other "Special Forces" are compared to, and try to reach their level of lethality and combat ability.

[KCKitsune]

Yeah, he's bad ass, but if they had a gun, then he would be dead.

Though I will admin, fighting 40 guys for 20 minutes was REALLY bad ass!

[PBTHHHHT]

Yeah, he's bad ass, but if they had a gun, then he would be dead.

Though I will admin, fighting 40 guys for 20 minutes was REALLY bad ass!

Depends on the situation, it's a packed train, they're fighting it out, probably, mainly in the aisles and over some seats. People are panicked, blood and steel flashing everywhere, lots of shouting. Supposedly there's a gun, but it's an unknown if the token person was panicked, the gun was a fake, or other factor. The bandits probably weren't expecting resistance, plus, they're probably strung out so they don't have a clear view/shot on him. Even if they did have one or two guns, depending on the situation, they may have a hard time to shoot the guy unless they were next to him or so, if that's the case, he's also in charging range. A guy with a knife is supposedly very, very nasty, dangerous within 10' or so, even if you do have a gun. It's probably going towards the Creepwood run moment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Too many factors. But if they were competent... or some other things, definitely things could turn the other way.

[CanRay]

He might have been dead. He might have been injured (More, he did get a nasty cut into his left hand.). The passengers might have been injured.

They might have just pissed him off even more.

BTW, if someone has "MoH" or "VC" after their name, consider them just as dangerous, if not possibly more so, than a Gurkha.

[explorator]

Yeah, he's bad ass, but if they had a gun, then he would be dead.

Yeah, but if he had a gun, then he would have killed them all in 2 mins. Kaiser Soze style.

[toturi]

Yeah, he's bad ass, but if they had a gun, then he would be dead.

They had guns, maybe they were fake or he was so bad assed they forgot how to use them.

[CanRay]

They had guns, maybe they were fake or he was so bad assed they forgot how to use them.

More likely too scared to take the safeties off. The noise would alert him to their presence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[ShadowFighter88]

Mark my words; in a few months time, this guy'll be the Chuck Norris of India. If he isn't already.

[CanRay]

He?

The entire Gurkha District is made up of Indian Chuck Norris'!

[ShadowFighter88]

True, but how many make the news like that guy?

[toturi]

True, but how many make the news like that guy?

Depends on how many people are stupid enough to piss them off.

[ShadowFighter88]

Fair point; can't forget human stupidity.

[CanRay]

If you're in India, and see a man with a Kukri, and you're doing something very, very wrong: Stop what you're doing, drop everything, apologize very nicely to everyone, and turn yourself into the police.

Hopefully he'll decide you're not worth the time to break into the prison and move you into the cell with the worst prisoner in the joint while you're sleeping.

[Saint Sithney]

That was some of the worst journalism I've ever read.

Who cares what seat he sat in? They don't give any other relevant information regarding the locations of anything else..

Maybe they expect people to find that train car and his seat and lay wreathes on it while they give prayers to Krishna?

Just horrible writing...

[WhiskeyJohnny]

He?

The entire Gurkha District is made up of Indian Chuck Norris'!

It is a Hindu Proverb that "A single Gurkha will defeat Chuck Norris, no matter how many Roundhouse Kicks he makes."

[Christian Lafay]

I heard a story once about some Gurkhas and I hope it's true. An officer was talking to a special group he used for black missions, through a liaison, about getting them to jump out of a plane behind enemy lines and he needed volunteers. Of the group there, which usually went for anything, only two raised their hands. The officer was confused and asked why they were scared of this mission and asked the liaison to find out why they were acting this way. After some back and forth the liaison said they wished to know how slow and how low the plane would be going when they jumped out. The officer quickly informed them that they would have parachutes and all of them volunteered. This means that two crazy SOBs were willing to jump out of a plane, kill as many as they could on the way down, and still expect to survive the landing. Again, not sure how true the story is but still.....

[CanRay]

I remember hearing a story about some US Troops in WWII, fresh from training, that were told by a British Liaison that they had to tie their boots in a certain way where they were being deployed because Gurkhas were in the area, and that's how they IDed who was a friendly and who was an enemy. By sneaking up on them and feeling the laces of their boots, then sneaking away if they were friendly.

I like the two volunteers story better, however.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Holy crap, Gurkhas, especially the formally retired one who happened to fatefully be riding that train, sound like they would make the lead characters in The Hunted look like amateurs.

[Kliko]

There's another article on this man here:

http://www.logiccool.com/blog/591281-lone-...against-40-men/

[Kagetenshi]

A guy with a knife is supposedly very, very nasty, dangerous within 10' or so, even if you do have a gun.

In the sense of "you can't reliably keep that knife from your fleshy bits", not in the sense of "the guy with the knife isn't going to get ventilated".

~J

[PBTHHHHT]

In the sense of "you can't reliably keep that knife from your fleshy bits", not in the sense of "the guy with the knife isn't going to get ventilated".

~J

that's the beauty of it, the bandits probably want to live to see another day. The gurkha, I think once he's committed... well, pray you can get away from him, because he ain't stopping till the threat is over.

[darthmord]

I remember hearing a story about some US Troops in WWII, fresh from training, that were told by a British Liaison that they had to tie their boots in a certain way where they were being deployed because Gurkhas were in the area, and that's how they IDed who was a friendly and who was an enemy. By sneaking up on them and feeling the laces of their boots, then sneaking away if they were friendly.

I like the two volunteers story better, however.

My Father-in-law was told that very thing when he went to Vietnam. He did some 'interesting' things. But shortly after he arrived in theater, he was instructed to tie his boots a certain way. When he asked why, he was told it was for identification while out in the field. He was puzzled by it and asked about that. All he was told was that forces were out in the field that would know the difference. There were several people in his group that had seen bad guys simply walk behind a tree and fall down on the other side dead. No shots fired or anything that would make noise.

Needless to say, he did as he was told. He also noted everyone around his station had their boots tied the same way.

[CanRay]

Ah, well, I'll consider that confirmation of the "Boot Lace Story" is at least partly true, if not exact, then at least in detail.

[pbangarth]

An ancillary tale to this growing mythology is the account of a soldier on sentry duty at night who is startled by a cry of disappointment at his feet. Turns out a Ghurka had stalked him and identified him by his boot laces, unfortunately in the Ghurka's mind, as an ally.

[CanRay]

Probably drew his Kukri in anticipation. IIRC, they can't sheath them again until they've tasted blood. But that might be a myth.

[CanRay]

Oh for why do you double-post me?

[hyzmarca]

They had guns, maybe they were fake or he was so bad assed they forgot how to use them.

That's why training is important. If you don't have it you'll fall back on instinctual reactions, and instinctual reactions to violent situations tend to be very stupid when modern weapons are involved.

It is unlikely that the bandits sepend an exceptionally large amound of time training for such a confrontation.

[CanRay]

Bandits? Training? Possibly.

I don't think anyone has enough training to anticipate a Gurkha popping out of apparently nowhere and start hacking down your fellows with great abandon.

[BookWyrm]

Q: What can one man do?
A: You'd be so surprised, your jaw would lock permanently open.

[CanRay]

*Intone from Knight Rider*: "One man can make a difference."

[hyzmarca]

Bandits? Training? Possibly.

I don't think anyone has enough training to anticipate a Gurkha popping out of apparently nowhere and start hacking down your fellows with great abandon.

Well, they were train bandits. But I think that they were untrained train bandits.


The untrained train bandits tried to rob a train but the train got away because the untrained train bandits were insufficiently trained.

[CanRay]

For want of a nail, a Gurkha was pissed off and went on a roaring rampage of revenge!

[Dahrken]

Probably drew his Kukri in anticipation. IIRC, they can't sheath them again until they've tasted blood. But that might be a myth.

AFAIK it's a myth. The thing is not just a weapon, it is also an utility knife, like a machete.

[Nath]

IIRC, they can't sheath them again until they've tasted blood. But that might be a myth.

On the other hand, Gurkha show kukri during inspection (pictured 1 2 3)

[Omenowl]

BENAVIDEZ, ROY P. this was another bad ass and this is while he is being shot at.

http://www.army.mil/medalofhonor/citations25.html

[CanadianWolverin...]

Your link is broken for me Omenowl, not sure if that is the case for anyone else.

[Omenowl]

Sorry this should be correct and working now

[CanadianWolverin...]

Thanks Omenowl ... and hole-ee shit. Roy was a mother fucking tank. Possibly a troll?

BENAVIDEZ, ROY P.

Rank and Organization: Master Sergeant, Detachment B-56, 5th Special Forces Group, Republic of Vietnam. Place and Date: West of Loc Ninh on 2 May 1968. Entered Service at: Houston, Texas June 1955. Date and Place of Birth: 5 August 1935, DeWitt County, Cuero, Texas. Master Sergeant (then Staff Sergeant) Roy P. Benavidez United States Army, who distinguished himself by a series of daring and extremely valorous actions on 2 May 1968 while assigned to Detachment B56, 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne), 1st Special Forces, Republic of Vietnam. On the morning of 2 May 1968, a 12-man Special Forces Reconnaissance Team was inserted by helicopters in a dense jungle area west of Loc Ninh, Vietnam to gather intelligence information about confirmed large-scale enemy activity. This area was controlled and routinely patrolled by the North Vietnamese Army. After a short period of time on the ground, the team met heavy enemy resistance, and requested emergency extraction. Three helicopters attempted extraction, but were unable to land due to intense enemy small arms and anti-aircraft fire. Sergeant Benavidez was at the Forward Operating Base in Loc Ninh monitoring the operation by radio when these helicopters returned to off-load wounded crewmembers and to assess aircraft damage. Sergeant Benavidez voluntarily boarded a returning aircraft to assist in another extraction attempt. Realizing that all the team members were either dead or wounded and unable to move to the pickup zone, he directed the aircraft to a nearby clearing where he jumped from the hovering helicopter, and ran approximately 75 meters under withering small arms fire to the crippled team. Prior to reaching the team's position he was wounded in his right leg, face, and head. Despite these painful injuries, he took charge, repositioning the team members and directing their fire to facilitate the landing of an extraction aircraft, and the loading of wounded and dead team members. He then threw smoke canisters to direct the aircraft to the team's position. Despite his severe wounds and under intense enemy fire, he carried and dragged half of the wounded team members to the awaiting aircraft. He then provided protective fire by running alongside the aircraft as it moved to pick up the remaining team members. As the enemy's fire intensified, he hurried to recover the body and classified documents on the dead team leader. When he reached the leader's body, Sergeant Benavidez was severely wounded by small arms fire in the abdomen and grenade fragments in his back. At nearly the same moment, the aircraft pilot was mortally wounded, and his helicopter crashed. Although in extremely critical condition due to his multiple wounds, Sergeant Benavidez secured the classified documents and made his way back to the wreckage, where he aided the wounded out of the overturned aircraft, and gathered the stunned survivors into a defensive perimeter. Under increasing enemy automatic weapons and grenade fire, he moved around the perimeter distributing water and ammunition to his weary men, reinstilling in them a will to live and fight. Facing a buildup of enemy opposition with a beleaguered team, Sergeant Benavidez mustered his strength, began calling in tactical air strikes and directed the fire from supporting gunships to suppress the enemy's fire and so permit another extraction attempt. He was wounded again in his thigh by small arms fire while administering first aid to a wounded team member just before another extraction helicopter was able to land. His indomitable spirit kept him going as he began to ferry his comrades to the craft. On his second trip with the wounded, he was clubbed from additional wounds to his head and arms before killing his adversary. He then continued under devastating fire to carry the wounded to the helicopter. Upon reaching the aircraft, he spotted and killed two enemy soldiers who were rushing the craft from an angle that prevented the aircraft door gunner from firing upon them. With little strength remaining, he made one last trip to the perimeter to ensure that all classified material had been collected or destroyed, and to bring in the remaining wounded. Only then, in extremely serious condition from numerous wounds and loss of blood, did he allow himself to be pulled into the extraction aircraft. Sergeant Benavidez' gallant choice to join voluntarily his comrades who were in critical straits, to expose himself constantly to withering enemy fire, and his refusal to be stopped despite numerous severe wounds, saved the lives of at least eight men. His fearless personal leadership, tenacious devotion to duty, and extremely valorous actions in the face of overwhelming odds were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflect the utmost credit on him and the United States Army.

[Wounded Ronin]

Yeah, he's bad ass, but if they had a gun, then he would be dead.

Though I will admin, fighting 40 guys for 20 minutes was REALLY bad ass!

Heh, yeah, unless the person with the gun were utterly incompetent.

But this story is such a pump up story it makes me want to go and hit the gym right now. Stories like this brighten up life, stories of furious and desperate heroic knife combat.

Even getting three kills using a knife is pretty awesome, if you think about it. I mean, in a lot of active shooter scenarios you hear about in the news someone with a firearm can only get several kills and that's spraying at defenseless victims. Three kills with a knife against armed and resisting opponents is pretty THIS IS SPARTA in and of itself.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Thanks Ronin, now I desperately want to see a movie about this Gurkha that has fight choreography and slow motion scenes that do him justice - and he better be in the credits as an advisory role getting a ton of cash as denoting the honour he is do putting his life on the line to rescue the lady being raped.

Shit, I want to go story board / comic this up now...

[CanRay]

BENAVIDEZ, ROY P. this was another bad ass and this is while he is being shot at.

I think I mentioned that people with "MoH" and "VC" after their names should be treated in the same category. If not more so.

Thank you for proving my point.

Shit, I want to go story board / comic this up now...

I'd pay for the comic. Especially if the money went to him, his family, or towards hunting down the surviving criminals...

[nezumi]

Probably drew his Kukri in anticipation. IIRC, they can't sheath them again until they've tasted blood. But that might be a myth.

I can't comment on the kukri in particular, but I can validate there are blades like that. While overseas, one of my teachers taught a kid who brought the blade in to show the class, and then quietly cut his palm on it before putting it away.

[CanRay]

Some blades are considered to be spiritual in nature, and have that restriction. I just couldn't remember if the Kukri's reputation for that was myth or reality. It might even be propaganda to make them all the more fearsome, which is another possibility.

Of course, for those "In the know", they're already the scariest of the scary, so why would they need to be more fearsome? Other than the absolute crazies in those groups, that is.

And, my usual caveat, I'm a Civilian Puke who reads a lot. What the hell do I really know about anything?

[Neraph]

A guy with a knife is supposedly very, very nasty, dangerous within 10' or so, even if you do have a gun.

Let me clear this up for you: in general, a person with their gun holstered as standard standing 21' away from someone with a knife is dead before they can get a shot off. Of course, there are variables and it's not locked in stone (quick draw holster, someone practiced in quick drawing their firearm, intervening obstacles, ect.), but generally speaking it's a true statement.

[Kagetenshi]

Source? That's a stronger claim than I'm aware of.

(Other significant variables: is the knife in hand and ready (for knives which need to be readied, like folders)? I assume the shooter is presumed not to have a round in the chamber, but is a safety assumed to be on? Etc. As it stands, I'm actually not sure it's a useful claim.)

~J

[Wounded Ronin]

Source? That's a stronger claim than I'm aware of.

(Other significant variables: is the knife in hand and ready (for knives which need to be readied, like folders)? I assume the shooter is presumed not to have a round in the chamber, but is a safety assumed to be on? Etc. As it stands, I'm actually not sure it's a useful claim.)

~J

Who cares about the source? It is an excuse to experiment with a friend, an airsoft pistol, and a shock knife.

[hyzmarca]

Death isn't necessilary the result. Killing someone with a knife isn't as easy as it sounds. But a stab, certainly. The issue is how long it takes to perceive that the suspect is charging, draw the gun, point it, and fire versus how long it takes a charging man to close the gap. If the gun is already drawn, then that distance is greatly reduced.

[PBTHHHHT]

Let me clear this up for you: in general, a person with their gun holstered as standard standing 21' away from someone with a knife is dead before they can get a shot off. Of course, there are variables and it's not locked in stone (quick draw holster, someone practiced in quick drawing their firearm, intervening obstacles, ect.), but generally speaking it's a true statement.

Clearing it up for me? Maybe you should read further up where people are saying he's a dead man if they had a gun. I was clearing up for them that someone within range with a ready weapon will get to them. What you're 'clearing' up for me is generally what is known from what I've recall concerning law enforcement procedures when dealing someone with a bladed weapon. What I was saying was given out as hearsay and yours is about the same unless you give quotes, and yes we can be pulling out quotes and links at this point, but I think we're on the same page.

As hyzmarca as stated, I think the bandit is already wielding the gun in hand in the train robbery, that's an assumption so less then neraph's 21', plus it's rough terrain due to train car aisle... and unless the aisles are clear of debris, some trains I've seen is rather cramped with passenger items often spilling out into the aisle, it's really rough terrain.

[TheOneRonin]

Let me clear this up for you: in general, a person with their gun holstered as standard standing 21' away from someone with a knife is dead before they can get a shot off. Of course, there are variables and it's not locked in stone (quick draw holster, someone practiced in quick drawing their firearm, intervening obstacles, ect.), but generally speaking it's a true statement.

Not correct at all. 21'-rule basically means that a blade-wielding assailant can likely stab you before you manage to draw and fire your weapon once. Most likely, the shooter will not die instantly from the stab/cut. Rather, he will commence to empty his entire magazine/cylinder into the suicidal maniac at VERY close range.. Mr. Knifey will, probably in short order, bleed to death. Mr. Handgun, on the other hand, will have suffered anything from a superficial cut to a mortal wound, depending upon the skill and or determination of Mr. Knifey.

Talk to someone in Law Enforcement. They'll be happy to clear up the distinction for you. For me personally, I'd much rather engage Mr. Knifey from ~50 meters away with something in the neighborhood of 110 - 150 grains, traveling at least 2600 fps.

[D2F]

Not correct at all. 21'-rule basically means that a blade-wielding assailant can likely stab you before you manage to draw and fire your weapon once. Most likely, the shooter will not die instantly from the stab/cut. Rather, he will commence to empty his entire magazine/cylinder into the suicidal maniac at VERY close range.. Mr. Knifey will, probably in short order, bleed to death. Mr. Handgun, on the other hand, will have suffered anything from a superficial cut to a mortal wound, depending upon the skill and or determination of Mr. Knifey.

Talk to someone in Law Enforcement. They'll be happy to clear up the distinction for you. For me personally, I'd much rather engage Mr. Knifey from ~50 meters away with something in the neighborhood of 110 - 150 grains, traveling at least 2600 fps.

Keep in mind, that said assailant will keep stabbing you, while you empty your handgun into him. Gunshot wounds aren't exactly insta-gib, either. It's actually rather rare, that a gunshot wound will kill you outright. So, what you end up with is a guy that has nothing to lose and a major grudge against you, armed with a knife, right in front of your vitals...

[CanadianWolverin...]

Thing is, those shots have this wonderful shock wave to them in your body parts that just will put you in shock like that, when it comes to blades you need to put it in the right spot to do that. These Ghurkas probably know all the right spots, your done, they are moving your aim off and cutting the bio-mechanics that even make it possible for you to pull the trigger. Same can be said of some guys with their pistol/rifle/etc, they just know where to put that bullet and you are done, your body won't even be able to tell your finger to pull the trigger anymore.

[Manunancy]

Though when you're facing a kukri hitting just the right spot loses some importance - the pain and shock from a hit is likely to be just as disabling a bullet. The kukri plays in the same yard as a machete when it comes to cutting things (and peoples) apart.

[Neraph]

Not correct at all. 21'-rule basically means that a blade-wielding assailant can likely stab you before you manage to draw and fire your weapon once. Most likely, the shooter will not die instantly from the stab/cut. Rather, he will commence to empty his entire magazine/cylinder into the suicidal maniac at VERY close range.. Mr. Knifey will, probably in short order, bleed to death. Mr. Handgun, on the other hand, will have suffered anything from a superficial cut to a mortal wound, depending upon the skill and or determination of Mr. Knifey.

Talk to someone in Law Enforcement. They'll be happy to clear up the distinction for you. For me personally, I'd much rather engage Mr. Knifey from ~50 meters away with something in the neighborhood of 110 - 150 grains, traveling at least 2600 fps.

You're also assuming that the person with the knife doesn't secure your firearm that you haven't cleared yet. I mean come on people, combat isn't rock-em, sock-em robots.

I will, however, cede my "dead" statement to "wounded." The concept I had as I was typing was overwritten by the act of me typing.

[nezumi]

I don't know... This is a Ghurka we're talking about. "Dead" (or more reasonably, 'gibbed') seems reasonable. Also, 21 feet should probably read '210 feet' in this situation.

[Tyro]

Check out an old police training video called "surviving edged weapons". I don't have time to track down the full video - IIRC it's over an hour - but the highlights at least are easy to find.

[CanRay]

Check out an old police training video called "surviving edged weapons". I don't have time to track down the full video - IIRC it's over an hour - but the highlights at least are easy to find.

Rule One: Don't let the pointy or edged bit go into your flesh in the first place.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Some police forces are actually training their police officers back up to par on use of their batons and unarmed techniques because of the 21' rule. there are plenty of techniques out there that are real simple to jam up someone using a gun, alot of them fairly simple, a good solid knife or spearhand to the inside elbow of the arm drawing the weapon can do alot towards making someone fumble their weapon, if you have a knife and are any good with it there is very little problem with going to a cut to the wrist going for the firearm. Basically what it runs down to though is who is better prepared at those distances. Beyond 21' and a trained shooter can usually empty their clip (obviously just talking 9mm and smaller, the climb on larger rounds makes this far less likely) whereas at shorter distances they might not even clear their weapon from their holster.

[CanRay]

Or, at less than 20-feet they can empty every magazine they have into a car with an unarmed visible minority in it and miss.

The car.

[Wounded Ronin]

Beyond 21' and a trained shooter can usually empty their clip (obviously just talking 9mm and smaller, the climb on larger rounds makes this far less likely) whereas at shorter distances they might not even clear their weapon from their holster.

MAGAZINE!!!

(Unless you're carrying around an SKS, in which case...use the bayonet!)

[Wounded Ronin]

Death isn't necessilary the result. Killing someone with a knife isn't as easy as it sounds. But a stab, certainly. The issue is how long it takes to perceive that the suspect is charging, draw the gun, point it, and fire versus how long it takes a charging man to close the gap. If the gun is already drawn, then that distance is greatly reduced.

By the way, as a member of the ARMA who also does shooting sports, I would now on the whole rather be armed with a 1911 than with a longsword. The 1911 is easier to use in close quarters, will tend to cause more severe damage and trauma to the body with a successful hit, and can attack much more rapidly. It can also be used much more effectively than the longsword if you, the user, happened to be injured yourself.

I know I was being a little bit comedic about the 21 foot rule before, but the 21 foot rule applies if you have to draw from a holster to engage a charging man with a knife. If you already have your gun out and are more or less sighted in on the guy, just blow the fucker away.

.....I know this because of dicking around with an airsoft pistol, a shock knife, and a friend.

(I can totally see how someone who isn't highly proficient with their handgun could fuck it up under pressure, though. He sees the knife man coming at him and tries to draw, and ends up drawing with a poor firing grip. He fires with only a rear sight picture, and either misses or inflicts a non-incapacitating wound, and then the pistol gets a type 2 malfunction because of poor grip and weapon stability. He tries to clear the type 2 malfunction and creates a type 3 malfunction because he didn't rack the slide back all the way and the spent casing falls/gets pushed back into the chamber by the next cartridge trying to feed. While getting his intestines ripped out by the knife man who has since cleared the distance. So, even if the knife dude were over 21 feet away, someone who isn't cracker jack solid with their muscle memory and gun manipulation could definitely drop the ball and still die to the knife man, in my opinion.)

[CanRay]

MAGAZINE!!!

(Unless you're carrying around an SKS, in which case...use the bayonet!)

What about a M1 Garand, an SMLE, or a Mauser 98G/98K?

[Muspellsheimr]

Guns are ranged weapons.
Knives are melee weapons.
Treat them as such.

Yes, when distance is a significant factor, firearms are obviously the superior choice. However, if you are already in melee range, or can become so in negligible time, knives are by far more dangerous & effective. Even moderately trained, a gunman can easily be disabled by an unarmed assailant.

[CanRay]

Thus the need for a good, sturdy rifle. Ranged weapon and beatin' stick all in one if even semi-properly trained!

Properly trained, a lethal combination.

[Faraday]

<3 melee hardening.

[Wounded Ronin]

What about a M1 Garand, an SMLE, or a Mauser 98G/98K?

On a train?

[Wounded Ronin]

Thus the need for a good, sturdy rifle. Ranged weapon and beatin' stick all in one if even semi-properly trained!

Properly trained, a lethal combination.

One day, I went to a friend's house who had a pell in his back yard. After stabbing the pell a few times with the bayonet on my mosin nagant, I decided to buttstroke the pell.

The wood on the stock got dinged.

I decided that old heavy wooden rifles are more properly used as stabbin' sticks than beatin' sticks.

I do like the fact that a lot of bolt action rifles from the early 20th are like big heavy spears...that can shoot.

[Tyro]

One day, I went to a friend's house who had a pell in his back yard. After stabbing the pell a few times with the bayonet on my mosin nagant, I decided to buttstroke the pell.

The wood on the stock got dinged.

I decided that old heavy wooden rifles are more properly used as stabbin' sticks than beatin' sticks.

I do like the fact that a lot of bolt action rifles from the early 20th are like big heavy spears...that can shoot.

That reminds me of the standard rifle issued to French infantry.

It's most effective as a rather awkward club.

They were once one of the most militarily advanced countries in the world, but somehow they just never got the knack of gunpowerder-based technology. They invented a machine gun during Vietnam which had holes in the side of the magazine so the gunner could see how many rounds were left. Predictably, they got clogged with dirt and quickly became unusable. WTF?

[PBTHHHHT]

That reminds me of the standard rifle issued to French infantry.

It's most effective as a rather awkward club.

They were once one of the most militarily advanced countries in the world, but somehow they just never got the knack of gunpowerder-based technology. They invented a machine gun during Vietnam which had holes in the side of the magazine so the gunner could see how many rounds were left. Predictably, they got clogged with dirt and quickly became unusable. WTF?

That was actually WW1, the weapon in question you're probably thinking of is the chauchat, it was mentioned in different series on History channel, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauchat

[Tyro]

That was actually WW1, the weapon in question you're probably thinking of is the chauchat, it was mentioned in different series on History channel, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauchat

That's the one. My bad. In my defense, not much sleep recently.

[CanRay]

They invented a machine gun during Vietnam which had holes in the side of the magazine so the gunner could see how many rounds were left. Predictably, they got clogged with dirt and quickly became unusable. WTF?

WWII, as mentioned before, and it's infamous as the worst built machine gun in history, without argument. Which, if you know gun nuts, means a whole hell of a lot. Let's just say it was designed by committee and leave it at that. (No, I'm not joking, it really was. And this characterizes Between-War France and it's military designs, and is one of the many reasons that Germany practically drove through the Country.).

And, to be fair, that problem about the "Slot to see the ammo" has been a problem repeated in firearms history for quite some time. The Henry Rifle (Precursor to the Winchester Rifle of Western fame!) had the same issue.

[WhiskeyJohnny]

...They were once one of the most militarily advanced countries in the world, but somehow [the French] just never got the knack of gunpowerder-based technology...

Ummm, you do realize that the French practically invented smokeless powder, right? And that they basically fought the Germans to a standstill in WWI (despite the fantastically awful Chauchat)? And that they built the first truly modern tank? And that they destroyed the entire Ivorian Air Force in 2004?

I'm sorry, but the French have some seriously scary dudes waiting to do violence in the night (13eme RDP, Legion Etrange, Chasseurs Alpines, to name but three units). They get a bad rap for World War II (unjustifiedly so, in my opinion) and everyone seems to ignore their actions before or since.

[CanRay]

Ummm, you do realize that the French practically invented smokeless powder, right? And that they basically fought the Germans to a standstill in WWI (despite the fantastically awful Chauchat)? And that they built the first truly modern tank? And that they destroyed the entire Ivorian Air Force in 2004?

I'm sorry, but the French have some seriously scary dudes waiting to do violence in the night (13eme RDP, Legion Etrange, Chasseurs Alpines, to name but three units). They get a bad rap for World War II (unjustifiedly so, in my opinion) and everyone seems to ignore their actions before or since.

I had a big, long list of things and examples, then decided, bah...

The French are great innovators when it comes to military hardware. They just hold onto their "Great Innovations" too long after everyone else has improved on the originals.

As for the reputation of French Soldiers in WWII... Battle of Dunkirk. 'Nuff said. They held off the previously unstoppable German Advance while the British were able to retreat back to England. Admittedly, they had a little help from Hitler insisting on using the Air Forces more than the Ground Forces, but it was still not the walk in the park people think it was.

As well, French Forces fought in the Italian Campaign. The hard part of the Italian Campaign.

Honestly? You want a bad reputation for French in WWII, look at Non-Volunteer Québécois French-Canadians. There's a bloody bunch of cowards that deserve a bad rep! The Volunteers, however, well, they were scary from a Canadian standpoint.

[Wounded Ronin]

That was actually WW1, the weapon in question you're probably thinking of is the chauchat, it was mentioned in different series on History channel, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauchat

I remember learning about the French infantry rifle on a website, where the magazine was an internal magazine, and you had to load it by pushing cartridges in one after the other, such that the possibility of your bullet striking the primer on the next cartridge hard enough to set it off existed. I couldn't believe the magazine design as something you were supposed to use in the middle of a firefight. Makes you feel like they'd have been better off with lever action winchesters or something.

EDIT: Here we go...

Just as the Germans adopted the Mauser and the British the Lee-Enfield, so the French opted for the Lebel 8 mm weapon (officially titled the Fusil modele, produced in 1886, and which unusually fired smokeless cartridges) as their rifle of choice during the war years.

Despite its wide use it suffered from a marked practical design flaw. Its eight rounds were loaded, nose to tail fashion, in a tubular magazine placed under the barrel of the rifle. This resulted in slow loading since the operator had to be wary of one round hitting the primer of the cartridge in front, thereby causing a most unwelcome explosion.

Although a better French model, the Berthier (see below), was available from 1916, the Lebel - despite its flaws - continued to be standard issue.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/weaponry/rifles.htm

[Wounded Ronin]

Ummm, you do realize that the French practically invented smokeless powder, right? And that they basically fought the Germans to a standstill in WWI (despite the fantastically awful Chauchat)? And that they built the first truly modern tank? And that they destroyed the entire Ivorian Air Force in 2004?

I'm sorry, but the French have some seriously scary dudes waiting to do violence in the night (13eme RDP, Legion Etrange, Chasseurs Alpines, to name but three units). They get a bad rap for World War II (unjustifiedly so, in my opinion) and everyone seems to ignore their actions before or since.

This.

BTW, IMO everyone who lives in a former French colony, but who is not French, really should join the Legion Etrange. They get to drink beer and wine!

[CanRay]

Yep. And the Canadian Ross Rifle's breech blew up if it was put in backwards. And there was no label to tell you the right way.

[CanRay]

This.

BTW, IMO everyone who lives in a former French colony, but who is not French, really should join the Legion Etrange. They get to drink beer and wine!

Yeah, I'll pass, thanks.

[Manunancy]

This.

BTW, IMO everyone who lives in a former French colony, but who is not French, really should join the Legion Etrange. They get to drink beer and wine!

Don't forget the food ! Smelly cheese, snails and frogs. Yummy. Just the things to build your willpower...

though to be accurate, we eat our snails cooked and only the frog's cooked hind legs rather than the whole raw critter. That's the beginning of decadence and might explains some of our military troubles (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[CanRay]

Creole cooking, that's a mighty fine dish! I gar-on-tee!

[Tyro]

Ummm, you do realize that the French practically invented smokeless powder, right? And that they basically fought the Germans to a standstill in WWI (despite the fantastically awful Chauchat)? And that they built the first truly modern tank? And that they destroyed the entire Ivorian Air Force in 2004?

I'm sorry, but the French have some seriously scary dudes waiting to do violence in the night (13eme RDP, Legion Etrange, Chasseurs Alpines, to name but three units). They get a bad rap for World War II (unjustifiedly so, in my opinion) and everyone seems to ignore their actions before or since.

They have their up sides. Every modern nation has its scary motherfuckers (yes, even Canada). The problem is that they also hold the record for most unbelievably awful military ideas which got past the planning stages into implementation.

[CanRay]

They have their up sides. Every modern nation has its scary motherfuckers (yes, even Canada). The problem is that they also hold the record for most unbelievably awful military ideas which got past the planning stages into implementation.

We're such nice people because we know how badass we really are. We're the guys in the corner of the bar, sitting quietly, drinking lemonade, while everyone out drinks heavily and shows tattoos and brags about things... Because we have absolutely nothing to prove.

OK, that's JTF2, the rest of us are drinking beer because we just have a little bit to prove. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tyro]

We're such nice people because we know how badass we really are. We're the guys in the corner of the bar, sitting quietly, drinking lemonade, while everyone out drinks heavily and shows tattoos and brags about things... Because we have absolutely nothing to prove.

OK, that's JTF2, the rest of us are drinking beer because we just have a little bit to prove. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Still, I think it's pretty impressive that Canada's kept itself so thoroughly out of other countries' business. Your relationships with other countries are such that smart Americans travelling abroad say they're Canadian.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Still, I think it's pretty impressive that Canada's kept itself so thoroughly out of other countries' business. Your relationships with other countries are such that smart Americans travelling abroad say they're Canadian.

Psst, CanRay, don't tell him about the Canadian mining companies... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Tyro]

Psst, CanRay, don't tell him about the Canadian mining companies... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

What about the mining companies?

In any case, the *people* of Canada have a reputation worldwide as nice, polite people. That's worth a lot in my book.

[pbangarth]

What about the mining companies?

In any case, the *people* of Canada have a reputation worldwide as nice, polite people. That's worth a lot in my book.

The first that come to mind are some gold mining companies in Central America and South East Asia, poisoning the environment, stomping on local people's rights and property... that sort of thing.

If you are looking for a foreigner's view on the Canadian psyche as it relates to the rest of the world, check out this British journalist's take on it:

[ Spoiler ]

Salute to a brave and modest nation - Kevin Myers , 'The Sunday Telegraph' LONDON :

Until the deaths of Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan , probably almost no one outside their home country had been aware that Canadian troops are deployed in the region.

And as always, Canada will bury its dead; just as the rest of the world, as always, will forget its sacrifice - just as it always forgets nearly everything Canada ever does. It seems that Canada ’s historic mission is to come to the selfless aid both of its friends and of complete strangers, and then, once the crisis is over, to be well and truly ignored.

Canada is the perpetual wallflower that stands on the edge of the hall, waiting for someone to come and ask her for a dance. A fire breaks out, she risks life and limb to rescue her fellow dance-goers, and suffers serious injuries. But when the hall is repaired and the dancing resumes, there is Canada, the wallflower still, while those she once helped glamorously cavort across the floor, blithely neglecting her yet again.

That is the price Canada pays for sharing the North American continent with the United States , and for being a selfless friend of Britain in two global conflicts.

For much of the 20th century, Canada was torn in two different directions: It seemed to be a part of the old world, yet had an address in the new one, and that divided identity ensured that it never fully got the gratitude it deserved.

Yet its purely voluntary contribution to the cause of freedom in two world wars was perhaps the greatest of any democracy. Almost 10% of Canada 's entire population of seven million people [my note: For WW II, I think we were about ten or eleven million, but the percentage was still at around 10%] served in the armed forces during the First World War, and nearly 60,000 died. The great Allied victories of 1918 were spearheaded by Canadian troops, perhaps the most capable soldiers in the entire British order of battle.

Canada was repaid for its enormous sacrifice by downright neglect, its unique contribution to victory being absorbed into the popular memory as somehow or other the work of the 'British.'

The Second World War provided a re-run. The Canadian Navy began the war with a half dozen vessels, and ended up policing nearly half of the Atlantic against U-boat attack. More than 120 Canadian warships participated in the Normandy landings, during which 15,000 Canadian soldiers went ashore on D-Day alone.

Canada finished the war with the third-largest navy and the fourth largest air force in the world. The world thanked Canada with the same sublime indifference as it had the previous time.

Canadian participation in the war was acknowledged in film only if it was necessary to give an American actor a part in a campaign in which the United States had clearly not participated - a touching scrupulousness which, of course, Hollywood has since abandoned, as it has[me again: ?n't?] any notion of a separate Canadian identity.

So it is a general rule that actors and filmmakers arriving in Hollywood keep their nationality - unless, that is, they are Canadian. Thus Mary Pickford, Walter Huston, Donald Sutherland, Michael J. Fox, William Shatner, Norman Jewison, David Cronenberg, Alex Trebek, Art Linkletter and Dan Aykroyd have in the popular perception become American, and Christopher Plummer, British.

It is as if, in the very act of becoming famous, a Canadian ceases to be Canadian, unless she is Margaret Atwood, who is as unshakably Canadian as a moose, or Celine Dion, for whom Canada has proved quite unable to find any takers.

Moreover, Canada is every bit as querulously alert to the achievements of its sons and daughters as the rest of the world is completely unaware of them. The Canadians proudly say of themselves - and are unheard by anyone else - that 1% of the world's population has provided 10% of the world's peacekeeping forces.

Canadian soldiers in the past half century have been the greatest peacekeepers on Earth - in 39 missions on UN mandates, and six on non-UN peacekeeping duties, from Vietnam to East Timor, from Sinai to Bosnia.

Yet the only foreign engagement that has entered the popular non-Canadian imagination was the sorry affair in Somalia , in which out-of-control paratroopers murdered two Somali infiltrators. Their regiment was then disbanded in disgrace - a uniquely Canadian act of self-abasement for which, naturally, the Canadians received no international credit.

So who today in the United States knows about the stoic and selfless friendship its northern neighbour has given it in Afghanistan ?

Rather like Cyrano de Bergerac , Canada repeatedly does honourable things for honourable motives, but instead of being thanked for it, it remains something of a figure of fun. It is the Canadian way, for which Canadians should be proud, yet such honour comes at a high cost. This past year more grieving Canadian families knew that cost all too tragically well.

Lest we forget.

[CanRay]

Very good job, Pbangarth. Thank you. And Canadian Mining Companies stomp on our own Miners as well. A friend of mine died due to neglect of the corporation and they got away with it due to high priced lawyers, just as one example. (To be fair, most "Canadian" mining companies are "Canadian" in name only now, with figurehead owners. They're typically South American owned now.).

As for USAers that pretend to be Canucks... That pisses me off. A few countries have started to catch onto that trick, and, well... It dilutes the Goodwill we've made in the world.

I'd hate to travel to Holland and not get the treatment a lot of Canucks get there today. (I'm planning on a European trip as part of my bucket list. Hopefully one I can do before it becomes a Bucket List.). Or, worse, be treated like a "Fake Canadian" and have to provide proof that I am. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

One thing I'll point out about Canadian Psychology, we have few heroes, and they're typically the people that failed to do the job they set out to do, but died trying, damnit!

[Wounded Ronin]

What about the mining companies?

In any case, the *people* of Canada have a reputation worldwide as nice, polite people. That's worth a lot in my book.

Canadian women are so beautiful that when I see them I am overwhelmed and want to cry. The weather must create this by giving them great complexions.

[Faraday]

Canadian women are so beautiful that when I see them I am overwhelmed and want to cry. The weather must create this by giving them great complexions.

I knew one canadian woman a few times. She's ok looking, but no stunner.

[CanRay]

Canadian men and women are no more or less beautiful than anywhere else. We just have all the types of beauty, and a few new types due to multi-racial families.

[Tyro]

The first that come to mind are some gold mining companies in Central America and South East Asia, poisoning the environment, stomping on local people's rights and property... that sort of thing.

If you are looking for a foreigner's view on the Canadian psyche as it relates to the rest of the world, check out this British journalist's take on it:

[ Spoiler ]

Salute to a brave and modest nation - Kevin Myers , 'The Sunday Telegraph' LONDON :

Until the deaths of Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan , probably almost no one outside their home country had been aware that Canadian troops are deployed in the region.

And as always, Canada will bury its dead; just as the rest of the world, as always, will forget its sacrifice - just as it always forgets nearly everything Canada ever does. It seems that Canada ’s historic mission is to come to the selfless aid both of its friends and of complete strangers, and then, once the crisis is over, to be well and truly ignored.

Canada is the perpetual wallflower that stands on the edge of the hall, waiting for someone to come and ask her for a dance. A fire breaks out, she risks life and limb to rescue her fellow dance-goers, and suffers serious injuries. But when the hall is repaired and the dancing resumes, there is Canada, the wallflower still, while those she once helped glamorously cavort across the floor, blithely neglecting her yet again.

That is the price Canada pays for sharing the North American continent with the United States , and for being a selfless friend of Britain in two global conflicts.

For much of the 20th century, Canada was torn in two different directions: It seemed to be a part of the old world, yet had an address in the new one, and that divided identity ensured that it never fully got the gratitude it deserved.

Yet its purely voluntary contribution to the cause of freedom in two world wars was perhaps the greatest of any democracy. Almost 10% of Canada 's entire population of seven million people [my note: For WW II, I think we were about ten or eleven million, but the percentage was still at around 10%] served in the armed forces during the First World War, and nearly 60,000 died. The great Allied victories of 1918 were spearheaded by Canadian troops, perhaps the most capable soldiers in the entire British order of battle.

Canada was repaid for its enormous sacrifice by downright neglect, its unique contribution to victory being absorbed into the popular memory as somehow or other the work of the 'British.'

The Second World War provided a re-run. The Canadian Navy began the war with a half dozen vessels, and ended up policing nearly half of the Atlantic against U-boat attack. More than 120 Canadian warships participated in the Normandy landings, during which 15,000 Canadian soldiers went ashore on D-Day alone.

Canada finished the war with the third-largest navy and the fourth largest air force in the world. The world thanked Canada with the same sublime indifference as it had the previous time.

Canadian participation in the war was acknowledged in film only if it was necessary to give an American actor a part in a campaign in which the United States had clearly not participated - a touching scrupulousness which, of course, Hollywood has since abandoned, as it has[me again: ?n't?] any notion of a separate Canadian identity.

So it is a general rule that actors and filmmakers arriving in Hollywood keep their nationality - unless, that is, they are Canadian. Thus Mary Pickford, Walter Huston, Donald Sutherland, Michael J. Fox, William Shatner, Norman Jewison, David Cronenberg, Alex Trebek, Art Linkletter and Dan Aykroyd have in the popular perception become American, and Christopher Plummer, British.

It is as if, in the very act of becoming famous, a Canadian ceases to be Canadian, unless she is Margaret Atwood, who is as unshakably Canadian as a moose, or Celine Dion, for whom Canada has proved quite unable to find any takers.

Moreover, Canada is every bit as querulously alert to the achievements of its sons and daughters as the rest of the world is completely unaware of them. The Canadians proudly say of themselves - and are unheard by anyone else - that 1% of the world's population has provided 10% of the world's peacekeeping forces.

Canadian soldiers in the past half century have been the greatest peacekeepers on Earth - in 39 missions on UN mandates, and six on non-UN peacekeeping duties, from Vietnam to East Timor, from Sinai to Bosnia.

Yet the only foreign engagement that has entered the popular non-Canadian imagination was the sorry affair in Somalia , in which out-of-control paratroopers murdered two Somali infiltrators. Their regiment was then disbanded in disgrace - a uniquely Canadian act of self-abasement for which, naturally, the Canadians received no international credit.

So who today in the United States knows about the stoic and selfless friendship its northern neighbour has given it in Afghanistan ?

Rather like Cyrano de Bergerac , Canada repeatedly does honourable things for honourable motives, but instead of being thanked for it, it remains something of a figure of fun. It is the Canadian way, for which Canadians should be proud, yet such honour comes at a high cost. This past year more grieving Canadian families knew that cost all too tragically well.

Lest we forget.

Thanks for the article. It made me think.

[pbangarth]

Thanks for the article. It made me think.

You're welcome. Me too.

[Mesh]

They did some tests, and it turns out the Gorkhas weren't any good.

Mesh

[phlapjack77]

As for USAers that pretend to be Canucks... That pisses me off. A few countries have started to catch onto that trick, and, well... It dilutes the Goodwill we've made in the world.

Talked to an Australian the other night at a bar. Asked him to guess where I was from, since I don't have much of an accent. He guessed Canada, but I'm from America, so I asked him why.

He said he was "safe" with that guess - if I were really Canadian, then he would have guessed correctly, and if I were American, I would consider it a compliment. He said if he guessed American and I were Canadian, it might have been insulting...

[CanRay]

Talked to an Australian the other night at a bar. Asked him to guess where I was from, since I don't have much of an accent. He guessed Canada, but I'm from America, so I asked him why.

He said he was "safe" with that guess - if I were really Canadian, then he would have guessed correctly, and if I were American, I would consider it a compliment. He said if he guessed American and I were Canadian, it might have been insulting...

Might?

[phlapjack77]

ouch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

I only say that because you were talking with Aussies.

Aussies, Kiwis, and Canucks have a bit of a war history together. Apart, we kick much ass.

Together, well... There's probably a reason we've only fought a few battles together. We scared England too much with the results.

Were it any place else, you'd have likely been ID'd as a USAer, most likely called a "Yankee".

[phlapjack77]

I think he was just being polite - you're right, picking an American out of a lineup of foreigners tends to be pretty easy.

But I'm not a Yankee at all - "ya'll come back now, ya hear?"

[CanRay]

Yeah, I got the full details from an Oakie. But, to most of the world, "Yankee" is synonymous with USAer, and considered more "Accurate" than "American", as that would also include everyone from countries in North, Central, and South America.