Firearms that make sense..., Internal consistency and a little more realism Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Kerenshara]

I've talked about it for a while here and there and tinkered with it back and forth. Well, the framework is done. All I need is a place to put up a lot of numbers. Anybody got some place I can stick it and link to it that's not an inane megaupload or something else SPAMmie?

Basically, the sort version is this:

Weapons are designed based on "frames", similar to SR3's Cannon Companion, but instead of being based on "description" and having the ammunition type tied to the frame, I broke it out by ammo type as well.

[ Spoiler ]

Frames

• Taser (Taser only)
• Hold-Out Pistol
• Compact Frame Pistol
• Full Frame Pistol
• Machine Pistol
• Submachine Gun
• Carbine
• Assault Rifle (Light Rifle only but I am toying with how to do Beowulf)
• Battle Rifle (Medium Rifle only but I am toying with how to do Beowulf)
• Sport Rifle
• Sniper Rifle
• Light Machine Gun (Light Rifle only)
• Medium Machine Gun (Medium Rifle only)
• Heavy Machine Gun (X Rifle only)
• Shotgun (Shotgun only)
• Assault Cannon (Assault Cannon only)

Ammunition Types

• Light Pistol (9mm and similar)
• Medium Pistol (5.7x29mm and similar light high speed rounds)
• Heavy Pistol (.45 and similar)
• X Pistol (.50 AE and similar)
• Light Rifle (6.5 Grendel and similar)
• Medium Rifle (7.62x51 NATO and similar)
• Heavy Rifle (.338 Lapua Magnum and similar)
• X Rifle (.50 BMG and similar)
  

This allows for a wider diversity between designs with things often being a higher instance of a character picking something more apropriate to their role than just good numbers.

I had to tweak some of the range charts slightly, and the Medium Pistol cartridge was just in development 20 years ago. It's like a light pistol cartridge with slightly better penetration and range. Not as heavy hitting as a Heavy pistol though. And in a Submachine Gun it winds up doing 4P / -2 so it's less damaging than even a 9mm but more likely to penetrate light armor for physical damage. The entire thing is based on performance of the cartridge in various barrel lengths (simplified a LOT).

Anyhow, I need to sit down with all the weapons and crank them through and see where it takes me. THAT will take a bit more effort, but the cognitive part's done, finally.

For those who would argue it's "more complication" it's really no different than now, just the numbers in the charts are a tad different and more consistent. Weapons are a little more varried and unique. You're still referring to a chart and/or writing down the numbers in the same blanks.

The return of unique concealability as well as the addition of "accuracy" and "reliability", which are essentially optional, are even more flavor. Makes that AK97 seem more interesting because you just can't kill it, even though it's nothing numerically special now. Also helps explain the cost of sniper systems due to the custom machining and so forth.

-Kerenshara

[Tyro]

I've talked about it for a while here and there and tinkered with it back and forth. Well, the framework is done. All I need is a place to put up a lot of numbers. Anybody got some place I can stick it and link to it that's not an inane megaupload or something else SPAMmie?

Basically, the sort version is this:

Weapons are designed based on "frames", similar to SR3's Cannon Companion, but instead of being based on "description" and having the ammunition type tied to the frame, I broke it out by ammo type as well.

[ Spoiler ]

Frames

• Taser (Taser only)
• Hold-Out Pistol
• Compact Frame Pistol
• Full Frame Pistol
• Machine Pistol
• Submachine Gun
• Carbine
• Assault Rifle (Light Rifle only but I am toying with how to do Beowulf)
• Battle Rifle (Medium Rifle only but I am toying with how to do Beowulf)
• Sport Rifle
• Sniper Rifle
• Light Machine Gun (Light Rifle only)
• Medium Machine Gun (Medium Rifle only)
• Heavy Machine Gun (X Rifle only)
• Shotgun (Shotgun only)
• Assault Cannon (Assault Cannon only)

Ammunition Types

• Light Pistol (9mm and similar)
• Medium Pistol (5.7x29mm and similar light high speed rounds)
• Heavy Pistol (.45 and similar)
• X Pistol (.50 AE and similar)
• Light Rifle (6.5 Grendel and similar)
• Medium Rifle (7.62x51 NATO and similar)
• Heavy Rifle (.338 Lapua Magnum and similar)
• X Rifle (.50 BMG and similar)
  

This allows for a wider diversity between designs with things often being a higher instance of a character picking something more apropriate to their role than just good numbers.

I had to tweak some of the range charts slightly, and the Medium Pistol cartridge was just in development 20 years ago. It's like a light pistol cartridge with slightly better penetration and range. Not as heavy hitting as a Heavy pistol though. And in a Submachine Gun it winds up doing 4P / -2 so it's less damaging than even a 9mm but more likely to penetrate light armor for physical damage. The entire thing is based on performance of the cartridge in various barrel lengths (simplified a LOT).

Anyhow, I need to sit down with all the weapons and crank them through and see where it takes me. THAT will take a bit more effort, but the cognitive part's done, finally.

For those who would argue it's "more complication" it's really no different than now, just the numbers in the charts are a tad different and more consistent. Weapons are a little more varried and unique. You're still referring to a chart and/or writing down the numbers in the same blanks.

The return of unique concealability as well as the addition of "accuracy" and "reliability", which are essentially optional, are even more flavor. Makes that AK97 seem more interesting because you just can't kill it, even though it's nothing numerically special now. Also helps explain the cost of sniper systems due to the custom machining and so forth.

-Kerenshara

I look forward to further development of this project.

[Wounded Ronin]

Yay, guns...guns and rules!

[nezumi]

Silly question, but... if everything is built around frames, what's the difference between a shotgun frame, a sports rifle frame, and a light assault rifle frame? I mean, if you slap a collapsible stock onto an automatic X, where does the one end and the other begin?

I could almost see putting it as:
Taser
Holdout Handgun
Compact Handgun
Full-sized Handgun
Machine Pistol
Compact SMG
Full-sized SMG
Carbine Rifle
Full-sized Rifle
Large-sized Rifle
Light Machine Gun
Medium Machine Gun
Large Machine Gun
Light Vehicle Weapon
Medium Vehicle Weapon
Large Vehicle Weapon

Size of the frame caps maximum caliber and barrel size and maximum number of modifications, but helps concealability.

If you want to make a carbine shotgun, you take the Carbine-sized Rifle frame, set it to 12 gauge ammunition and so on. An M-16 is Full-sized Frame, 5.56 ammo, 18" barrel, fully automatic. A sporting rifle is Full-sized Frame, 24" barrel, Semi-auto, .223 and so on.

[Raven the Tricks...]

Interested to see how this develops. Maybe it'll be ready by the time I get a game going again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Of course, seeing as how I'm the only sam in the group at the moment I may not be able to get it to fly. We'll have to see how it goes.

[Kerenshara]

Well, the existing system amalgamates damage, range, size and everything else by "type". So all SMGs start with 5P/-/SA&BF/Clip Fed/same range and is modified from there for flavor. All Assault Rifles are 6P/-1/SA&B&FA/Flip Fed/same range and so forth. Where changes are made for flavor, they aren't always consistent. I'm really BIG on consistency.

Warning: Wall O' Text follows!

[ Spoiler ]

For example: Medium Machine Guns, Battle Rifles, small caliber Sniper Rifles and mid caliber Sport Rifles all fire some round that is, for game purposes, functionally identical. Let's go with the 7.62x51mm NATO round because it's pretty common, and there's a civilian market version (.308 Winchester). All but the Sniper Rifle have barrels between 18" and 22" in length (the Sniper Rifle is 22" to 30" long). So why does every one of them have different penetration ratings? If the argument is that civilian weapons don't penetrate as well, tell that to the cop shot through his vest by a 30-06 rifle which arguably is even more powerful without getting to the next game-significant damage level.

So, the pistols are all designed to be held and fired with one hand (Weaver Stance not withstanding). I diferentiated then by a combination of barrel length and grip length. Several "Heavy Pistols" have a compact version listed (Walther Secura Kompakt) but have reduced ammunition and improved concealability. The approach seemed a bit ham-handed to me, so I diferentiated it by the side of the frame and then had a version of each by round.

Hold-Out pistols have barrels <4" (10cm) in length, usually have a single-stack magazine and a short magazine well. Small Frame and Full Frame pistols have the same barrel lengths (4" - 7"/10cm - 17cm), and share double-stacked magazine wells; What diferentiates them is the depth of the magazine well and the configuration under the barrel (most modern Full Frame pistols have a rail for a laser sight or small combat flashlight). Machine Pistols are diferentiated from Submachine Guns in that the MP has a pistol-length barrel and the SMG has a longer (7" - 10"/10cm - 17cm) barrel and most of the selected artwork has shown ammo feed through the grip for MPs and separate magazine well for the SMG. In other words, one's bigger.

Now, all rifles originate from the basic Sport (hunting) Rifle at some point. The Germans created the first "Sturm Gewehr" or Assault Rifle by combining a SMG-style automatic action with a cut-down rifle cartridge. After the war, what the Western allied powers developed were full rifle-caliber (7.62x51) versions of the German weapons. The Russians, in a case of parallel simultaneous evolution, had developed the AK-47 which used a cut-down rifle cartridge (7.62x39). The Battle Rifles were found to be 1) Heavy 2) Functionally uncontrolable in automatic fire and 3) Very difficult to keep supplied with enough ammunition if it had to be humped in by humans on their backs. The Americans eventually developed a specialized round (5.56x45 NATO) and evolved weapons around it which addressed all three issues. Ironically, the Soviets then followed suit and developed the AK-74 which fired a round (5.45x39) which was more similar to the newer, lighter American rounds. (Incidentally, that leaves the old AK-47 as midway between a Battle Rifle and a modern-style Assault Rifle by being both cut-down from rifle power, but firing a full caliber and notoriously inacurate slug.) So the only real difference between the Assault Rifle and the Battle Rifle is the round... and that the base Battle Rifle is much bigger (different frame) than the lighter Assault Rifle. The Sniper Rifle has been since the Vietnam conflict either an acurized Battle Rifle or a rebuilt Sport Rifle. The game assumes the former, but many of the weapons actually shown in SR4X are the later. Carbines, by modern reckoning, are forshortened Assault Rifles. A "carbine" Battle Rifle would be an Assault Rifle chambered for a Battle Rifle cartridge... ok I should add that as a speciffic option because there's an oddball version of the H&K G3 that just came to my mind, and the new LWRC S.A.B.R. I think fits that description as well. OK, easy to add.)

Shotguns are not just large-bore rifles. On the contrary, they have an entirely different set of constraints on their design due to the historically abnormal characteristics of their rounds. Yes, you can have a fully automatic Shotgun, but it's not just a big Assault Rifle or even Battle Rifle. It's bleeding BIG. Combined with the other odd characteristics, it suggests it is deserving of its own classification.

Machine Guns are not built like automatic rifles at all. Battle Rifles and Assault Rifles are designed for short periods of sustained automatic fire, not just limited by ammunition in their clips but by their breech and barrel designs as well. One of my complaints is that Shadowrun et all uses the old British designation system to classify Machine Guns, where it's more role than engineering and design. Since the 1980s, Light Machine Guns have fired Assault Rifle ammunition, Medium Machine Guns have fired Battle Rifle ammunition and Heavy Machine Guns have fired... well, big honking rounds like the .50 BMG. The actual philosophy behind the three is actually different as well, with the LMG not really being designed to handle the kinds of duration of fire in a defensive emplacement, being optimized to provide covering and suppressive fire for teams. MMGs are designed less for portability and much more for use in defensive emplacements or vehicle mountings which call for longer periods of sustained fire. HMGs are like MMGs but written very, very large.

By allowing for all the above general starting points and leaving space for different classes of rounds, you can essentially build any weapon you care to name. The only real exception is going to be something like the Beowulf conversion for AR-15/M-16 series weapons.

Firearm design is a very specialized branch of engineering, and I didn't want people to need to refer to a separate book for details to build a gun. I wanted enough detail to convey the reason different guns were made in different ways while still keeping the basic simple ideas in the system as presented in the core products. Put another way: when new guns come out, I wanted their conversion to this system to be quick and relatively easy.

OK, having explained my reasoning, does my approach make a bit more sense now?

-Kerenshara

[Yerameyahu]

I agree with the concept. SR4 only has about 8 guns, after all. The various models are just tweaked versions of each other, and yes, the tweaks aren't always fair. I like the way they basically erased that in Eclipse Phase.

[Raven the Tricks...]

The more I see, the more I like the concept. It all generally makes sense to me. I'm not quite enough of a gun nut to come up with something like this reasonably, but I'm more than enough of one to use it if it's there.

[Stahlseele]

Oi, good to see you back and posting on stuff that's of interest to you Kerenshara.
And still with that irritating font i see *snickers* ^^

[Tyro]

I don't have the background to understand the work behind it, but I have enough gun knowledge to appreciate that you know what you're talking about and that your system is better for game balance. There's a good chance I might use it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't have the background to understand the work behind it, but I have enough gun knowledge to appreciate that you know what you're talking about and that your system is better for game balance. There's a good chance I might use it.

Not really better for game balance. It is more flavorful for Gun Enthusiasts, but that is really it. Simpler is always better, after all. Though, I do get that the Simple Aspects of Shadowrun 4A are what is in question here. Not everyone likes that. I think the current classifications for Firearms work for what SR4A is trying to emulate.

Good Luck with the project Kerenshara. Always interested in the outcome.

[Tyro]

Not really better for game balance. It is more flavorful for Gun Enthusiasts, but that is really it. Simpler is always better, after all. Though, I do get that the Simple Aspects of Shadowrun 4A are what is in question here. Not everyone likes that. I think the current classifications for Firearms work for what SR4A is trying to emulate.

Good Luck with the project Kerenshara. Always interested in the outcome.

More balanced firearms means you can look beyond Ares Alphas and Praetor E's, though. The idea of an ultimate weapon for all situations is ludicrous. I disagree that simpler is always better.

[Kerenshara]

Oi, good to see you back and posting on stuff that's of interest to you Kerenshara.
And still with that irritating font i see *snickers* ^^

You just noticed I'm back?

You know I use that font just for you, Stahl. Everybody knows you're happiest when you have something to grump about that doesn't actually piss you off. *grin*

-Kerenshara

[Tyro]

You just noticed I'm back?

You know I use that font just for you, Stahl. Everybody knows you're happiest when you have something to grump about that doesn't actually piss you off. *grin*

-Kerenshara

Why DO you use that font, anyway?

[Yerameyahu]

That *is* the reason.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

More balanced firearms means you can look beyond Ares Alphas and Praetor E's, though. The idea of an ultimate weapon for all situations is ludicrous. I disagree that simpler is always better.

Interesting, since I have never used an Ares Alpha or a Praetor for a character. Blows that theory right out of the water I guess.

[Yerameyahu]

Again, Tymeaus, your anecdotal evidence will never be admissible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You *know* that.

On the other hand, I'm partial to a really nice machine pistol, personally, and it depends if an F avail is a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Again, Tymeaus, your anecdotal evidence will never be admissible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You *know* that.

On the other hand, I'm partial to a really nice machine pistol, personally, and it depends if an F avail is a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anecdotal Evidence from YOUR table Yerameyahu? What ever shall we do? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
I see no reason my evidence is any less admissable than yours is... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I have a preference for the FN 5-7C Machine Pistol, the Ares Protector, and the Sernopal vz-88 for Automatics Preferences.
The Savalette Guardian and the Ares Light Fire/Hammerli 620 are my normal Go-To's for Pistols. Though I do like the Ruger Super Warhawk for my Ganger character.

And though the Barrett is Nice, I prefer the HK PSG-1 for my Sniping.

[Yerameyahu]

You do too know why, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) And I wasn't giving any evidence: I said 'personally', not for my characters.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You do too know why, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) And I wasn't giving any evidence: I said 'personally', not for my characters.

Ahhh... Personally. Unfortunately, Personally, I cannot afford the firearms that I would truly like to have. Unfortunately, Family, Food and a Place to Live take precedence.

[Kerenshara]

Odd that you like the FN 5-7C, because I think it gets short shrift. Going with the new rules mentioned above, it switches to Medium Pistol ammo and becomes 4P/-1 with a roughly Heavy Pistol ranges. It's based on a real weapon and while it packs less wallop than a .45 ACP, it penetrates through both sides of a Class III vest from a longer barrel. The Praetor becomes 4P/-2 (Loss of 1 damage, improve AP by 2) - same round. It's not a Gods weapon because it lowers the damage code. It's just slightly more likely to achieve physical (as opposed to stun) damage against light armor.

Tyro: Long story. I actually started out with said font on another size and green writing for a RP element (think: Matrix). The outcry - more over the color actually - had me go back and edit 100+ posts. But I like how it looks. I wasn't an issue last time I was a common poster here (18 months ago+) but now it seems to get more press. I'd consider dropping it but most people don't seem to think it's a problem, no Mods have said drek to me, and the people who DO complain tend to be trolls (with all the attendant "pisses ME off to see them hijack MY threads") so at this point, I'm keeping it as much to torq them off as because I like it. Fair?

-Kerenshara

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Odd that you like the FN 5-7C, because I think it gets short shrift. Going with the new rules mentioned above, it switches to Medium Pistol ammo and becomes 4P/-1 with a roughly Heavy Pistol ranges. It's based on a real weapon and while it packs less wallop than a .45 ACP, it penetrates through both sides of a Class III vest from a longer barrel. The Praetor becomes 4P/-2 (Loss of 1 damage, improve AP by 2) - same round. It's not a Gods weapon because it lowers the damage code. It's just slightly more likely to achieve physical (as opposed to stun) damage against light armor.
-Kerenshara

Yeah, maybe, but adding all that just adds to complexity. I like it simple. It may be more realistic, but I have given up realism in Firearms/Ordnance a long time ago, even if I do still complain about it from time to time.

If I wanted longer ranges from the FN 5-7C, I would just add a longer barrel in modification. Makes it easy. I do not think the Praetor is all that by the base system anyways, so reducing it makes no sense to me, really. I am completely happy with taking a stock weapon, and making it what I want it to be in Modification. At least that way, it is generally playable at any table I might happen to find myself at. House rules tend to cause issues, especially if you play in mutiple games where the house rules could be quite different. This is one of the reasons teh tables I play at minimize house rules. We may throw in an optional rule from time to time, but we frown upon actual House Rules.

Admittedly, though, we are using a house rule for Initiative/Initiaive Pass Resolution. It has its ups and downs, and in general I do not like it, But it works for the intended purpose of the GM.

[Angelone]

Interesting, I'm looking foward to see what you come up with.

I like the Nitama Optima better than the Ares Alpha. My favorite firearm though is the Ceska Black Scorpion.

[CanRay]

I used to swear by the Browning Ultrapower, but the Colt M2066 looks like a nice chunk of gunmetal...

[Faraday]

I have found a new favorite in the ruger warhawk. Makes for a great drone killer. Goes great with a Slivergun, which is another favorite. I tend to go Mannlicher for a longarm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Epicedion]

I think that even the SR4 weapons have plenty of variation within them if you check out their text entries rather than simply comparing damage/AP/etc.

As with reality, guns tend to be really freaking similar. What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS? Not much. What's the difference between a USP .45 ACP Compact Tactical and a WW2 vintage Colt M1911? Not a whole heck of a lot. Same goes for rifles: AK-47s and M-16s have their own distinctiveness and what could arguably lead to a well-reasoned argument on the pros and cons for either, but by and large the differences evaporate after two bullets go into the target.

Most firearms are remarkably similar, with major differences simply coming down to extra features, durability, and reliability. Durability and reliability have effectively been written out of the SR system. Just about everything else is personal preference.

If you want to carefully design and model a bunch of new weapons based off a common system, that's great. I think you'd probably be better served just adding new weapons in the following fashion:

Select the category (light pistol, assault rifle, etc), then apply the category standards for that weapon. Then tweak those slightly if you feel the need (for a more/less powerful or better/worse AP weapon). Settle on firing mode, ammo capacity, and any standard/integrated benefits (Recoil Compensation, smartguns, etc). Then, consider adding a quirk or two.

A quirk would be something like the Hammerli 620S range adjustment -- it's a light pistol that uses heavy pistol ranges.

But the functional difference between getting shot with an M-16 or an AK-47 (or two different pistols) is, considering the amount of variability inherent in the SR system, going to be pretty small. Large gaps (light->heavy pistol, SMG->assault rifle) are mostly covered already.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that even the SR4 weapons have plenty of variation within them if you check out their text entries rather than simply comparing damage/AP/etc.

As with reality, guns tend to be really freaking similar. What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS? Not much. What's the difference between a USP .45 ACP Compact Tactical and a WW2 vintage Colt M1911? Not a whole heck of a lot. Same goes for rifles: AK-47s and M-16s have their own distinctiveness and what could arguably lead to a well-reasoned argument on the pros and cons for either, but by and large the differences evaporate after two bullets go into the target.

Most firearms are remarkably similar, with major differences simply coming down to extra features, durability, and reliability. Durability and reliability have effectively been written out of the SR system. Just about everything else is personal preference.

If you want to carefully design and model a bunch of new weapons based off a common system, that's great. I think you'd probably be better served just adding new weapons in the following fashion:

Select the category (light pistol, assault rifle, etc), then apply the category standards for that weapon. Then tweak those slightly if you feel the need (for a more/less powerful or better/worse AP weapon). Settle on firing mode, ammo capacity, and any standard/integrated benefits (Recoil Compensation, smartguns, etc). Then, consider adding a quirk or two.

A quirk would be something like the Hammerli 620S range adjustment -- it's a light pistol that uses heavy pistol ranges.

But the functional difference between getting shot with an M-16 or an AK-47 (or two different pistols) is, considering the amount of variability inherent in the SR system, going to be pretty small. Large gaps (light->heavy pistol, SMG->assault rifle) are mostly covered already.

Indeed, This is pretty much the way we go about it at our table, even if it has no relevance Yerameyahu... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[nezumi]

I'm really BIG on consistency.

I guess that's where I disagree. I assume you're trying to be consistent with pre-existing SR4 guns, but I would have to ask, why? I have plenty of SR4 guns, and it's not hard to make up more on a case-by-case basis. Speaking for myself, I would find a lot more value from something like what Raygun did, where he made an entire alternate system based off of reality. That gives me choices. Otherwise it's just 'more of the same'. (Of course, that's just me and my table - if keeping consistent with SR4 is more useful to you, obviously that's what you should do!)

Now, all rifles originate from the basic Sport (hunting) Rifle at some point.

We agreed on everything prior to rifles, and this part seems to support my question. ARs, sniper rifles and sport rifles all based on a standard rifle platform. So why do you break them up? Just to be consistent with what SR4 has already established, where a .308 does more damage coming from a 22" 'sniper rifle' barrel than it does from a 28" 'sporting rifle' barrel?

Shotguns are not just large-bore rifles.

That would seem to depend on the round, no? 28 gauge isn't all that big. Sure, 12-gauge is pretty hefty compared to a 5.56 round, but the actual frame of the shotgun isn't any bigger. My wife has less problem with our 20-gauge than with most AR-15s because it's more compact.

I suppose my question is, how is the FRAME different - not the feeder mechanism or the upper received or the barrel. I know the barrel is wider and all the equipment inside is bigger, but the actual frame would seem to be interchangeable, not counting the shottie may be a bit broader to fit wider receivers. It would seem that, mechanically, you can have rifles in sizes 1-4, with 1 being suitable for .22 or .32, 4 being appropriate for .50 BMG, then just specify only frames 3 and 4 can be used for shotguns.

[CanRay]

AK-47s and M-16s have their own distinctiveness and what could arguably lead to a well-reasoned argument on the pros and cons for either, but by and large the differences evaporate after two bullets go into the target.

AK-74 and M-16 are better rifles to compare against each other.

AK-47 and FN FAL are better weapons to compare to one another.

[Fauxknight]

[list]
[*]Light Pistol (9mm and similar)
[*]Medium Pistol (5.7x29mm and similar light high speed rounds)

This had me wondering, the common 9x19mm is a heavier harder-hitting round than the 5-7, unless you're not referencing the 9x19mm but rather something shorter like a .380 ACP.

Shotguns are not just large-bore rifles. On the contrary, they have an entirely different set of constraints on their design due to the historically abnormal characteristics of their rounds. Yes, you can have a fully automatic Shotgun, but it's not just a big Assault Rifle or even Battle Rifle. It's bleeding BIG.

Shotguns are required by several countries to have longer barrels then rifles, that combined with the longer barrels favored for common shotgun uses like hunting and trap means they are generally on the large end. Other than tradition and perception, shotguns can and are built on assault rifle frames. One example would be the Saiga line that Izhmash makes which is an AK frame that comes in rifle bores of .223, 5.45. 7.62x39, .308 and shotgun bores of .410, 20 gauge, and 12 gauge. Shotguns don't run at as high of pressures as rifles so they end up having a similar diameter barrel as a rifle, just with much thinner walls, the primary difference would be ammunition capacity, 12 gauge magazine and drums don't hold anywhere close to a similar sized magazine or drum made for assault rifle ammo (this will be slightly less true when double stack magazines are finally available for shotgun bores-they are in research atm).

I do agree that one of the things I find overall lacking in SR firearms is ingenuity, while they added handheld laser weaponry they haven't come close to some of the new firearms designs that are coming out. The SR3 Cannon Companion at least allowed some reasonable customization, but SR4/SR4A is far more limited in what is allowed. They did add a Metal storm pistol, but didn't seem to consider making any other weapons using the technology. Why not make a rifle version with similar benefits? Not to mention the artist drew the pistol as 4 barrels stacked rather than 4 barrels in a square or diamond pattern, the stack makes no sense, it takes up a ton of extra room and would be less accurate.

[Fauxknight]

What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS?

One is aesthetically pleasing to look at while the other is a brick?

[Epicedion]

AK-74 and M-16 are better rifles to compare against each other.

AK-47 and FN FAL are better weapons to compare to one another.

Why, because of the caliber? It really doesn't matter all that much. The 5.56mm round is somewhat more likely to leave you incapacitated and wounded, while the 7.62mm round is somewhat more likely to leave you incapacitated and dead. Since assault rifles in SR don't do enough damage to do either without some sort of exceptional success backing them, it doesn't really matter.

Like I said, there's some place for debate on the real pros and cons of these sorts of individual weapons, but SR is too abstracted to portray these accurately. You'd have to add a lot of meat to the combat system itself to really sort out the differences.

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed. It's important to remember that SR wants realism like Airsoft wants realism: for show only, to please the gun-otaku. The mechanics are fine as mere categories. I do like the idea of making the 'suggested models' less obviously imbalanced, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fauxknight]

Like I said, there's some place for debate on the real pros and cons of these sorts of individual weapons, but SR is too abstracted to portray these accurately. You'd have to add a lot of meat to the combat system itself to really sort out the differences.

Or just vary weapons a little more by base damage and AP, then add in some accuracy and/or range adjustments in some individual weapon descriptions and viola you have slightly more interesting weapons.

[kzt]

As with reality, guns tend to be really freaking similar. What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS? Not much. What's the difference between a USP .45 ACP Compact Tactical and a WW2 vintage Colt M1911? Not a whole heck of a lot. Same goes for rifles: AK-47s and M-16s have their own distinctiveness and what could arguably lead to a well-reasoned argument on the pros and cons for either, but by and large the differences evaporate after two bullets go into the target.

Most firearms are remarkably similar, with major differences simply coming down to extra features, durability, and reliability. Durability and reliability have effectively been written out of the SR system. Just about everything else is personal preference.

I'd argue that SR actually divides too much. "Service handguns", to steal a phrase from gunsite, all have generally similar effects on the target whether they are Glocks shooting 9mm, or Glocks shooting .357 SIG or 1911 shooting .45 etc, a Bren 10 shooting 10mm, etc They all suck compared to rifles or shotguns, they all depend on hit location, and they all usually require multiple hits unless you get actually hit something very vital or the target gives up.

There are light pistols (say .22 to .380), pistols (Markov - 10mm) and heavy pistols (essentially hunting pistols like .500 SW that should totally suck in combat). SMGs are pistols with a stock and better sights. Then you have carbines (rifle rounds like 5.45, 5.56, 6.5, 7.62mmx39 {including LMGs} whether short barreled or not - that modifies range not damage), rifles (7mm full power and up, includes MMGs), and heavy weapons (408 .408 Chey Tac, .50 cal, 14.5 etc), cannon (20mm and up, = your dead). Those are all generalities, not absolutes.

Tasers need a completely rebuilt damage system, as they don't work like other weapons. They immobilize targets and inflict a lot of pain but essentially minimal damage of any sort.

[Raven the Tricks...]

Tasers need a completely rebuilt damage system, as they don't work like other weapons. They immobilize targets and inflict a lot of pain but essentially minimal damage of any sort.

Unless the target has a heart condition, but that isn't really modeled in SR either in any way shape or form.

[Yerameyahu]

Sounds like a great Negative Quality, though. "Without special implants/gear, make an Edge (X) test every time you're struck with a Taser… or drop dead." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Fauxknight]

Sounds like a great Negative Quality, though. "Without special implants/gear, make an Edge (X) test every time you're struck with a Taser… or drop dead." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Considering stick-n-shock thats like a 30 point negative quality!!

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Besides, Tasers are probably *really* common for normal people, cops, etc. That's what makes it fun. Maybe you can get a pacemaker or drugs or something. Be creative.

[nezumi]

Then you have carbines (rifle rounds like 5.45, 5.56, 6.5, 7.62mmx39 {including LMGs} whether short barreled or not - that modifies range not damage), rifles (7mm full power and up, includes MMGs), and heavy weapons (408 .408 Chey Tac, .50 cal, 14.5 etc), cannon (20mm and up, = your dead). Those are all generalities, not absolutes.

I would be inclined to break out MGs compared to rifles. In SR, 'LMG' is, at minimum, an M-60, which makes it comparable in frame to a 'large' rifle. MMGs are not man-portable. Just for the sake of clarity between 'vanilla' and 'Kerensha' SR players, keeping that match and wrapping your 'LMGs' as some sort of assault rifle may be best.

[Yerameyahu]

Actually, isn't the SR4 LMG exactly the same as an AR (DV/AP)? And doesn't that basically reflect reality (like M249)? The MMGs are rougher, *sorta* like the sport rifles, and the HMGs are like sniper rifles (again, even rougher).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would be inclined to break out MGs compared to rifles. In SR, 'LMG' is, at minimum, an M-60, which makes it comparable in frame to a 'large' rifle. MMGs are not man-portable. Just for the sake of clarity between 'vanilla' and 'Kerensha' SR players, keeping that match and wrapping your 'LMGs' as some sort of assault rifle may be best.

An SR LMG is like the SAW for the marine Corps. This is a lightweight, 5.56 mm Machine Gun. A GPMG (MMG) is the M60 that you are referring to. MMG's are VERY man-portable. Carried one for a long time in the corps. You are thinking the HMG (.50 M2 or the Russian KPV). These are Crew Serverd Weapons in every sense of the word.

[nezumi]

I guess SR4 changes things from SR3, where the rules specifically stated MMGs are not man-portable.

[Megu]

Christ, it's all already too complicated for me. As much as it's kind of cool to stack recoil compensation, sometimes I wonder if we'd be better off with just stats for Light Pistol, Heavy Pistol, etc. But then again, me and my group are civilian as fuck and came to SR from systems like Cortex and BESM.

[CanRay]

What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS?

Two rounds for the magazine, a different system of operation, different trigger/safety system, a barrel and frame that won't crap out after a mere couple ten thousands of rounds, plastic grip and ceramics in the design, will actually function a bit better if abused...

Quite a bit of difference, actually. In Shadowrun, most of that would be fluff, however.

[CanRay]

An SR LMG is like the SAW for the marine Corps. This is a lightweight, 5.56 mm Machine Gun. A GPMG (MMG) is the M60 that you are referring to. MMG's are VERY man-portable. Carried one for a long time in the corps. You are thinking the HMG (.50 M2 or the Russian KPV). These are Crew Serverd Weapons in every sense of the word.

I still want an M60E4.

Purely for hunting, of course.

[Doc Chase]

I still want an M60E4.

Purely for hunting, of course.

Funny; I want a Pancor for the same reason. Bird hunting.

By flock.

[Stahlseele]

i'm still jealous over the fact that one can, kinda legally, own a light fifty in the us of a <.<

[Doc Chase]

i'm still jealous over the fact that one can, kinda legally, own a light fifty in the us of a <.<

If you have the money, you certainly can. One of these days I'll get incorpor-wait, I know a guy who owns a security firm.

I'll just have him buy the light fifty and mount it on the hood of his Chevy Malibu.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I still want an M60E4.

Purely for hunting, of course.

Well, if you are talking about Hunting, I prefer an old-style Gatling Gun in 45-70 Caliber. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[kzt]

Well, if you are talking about Hunting, I prefer an old-style Gatling Gun in 45-70 Caliber. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wimp. Use a REAL gun. A 12 pound Mountain Howitzer loaded with canister. It's one of the most insane gun stories I've ever read.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wimp. Use a REAL gun. A 12 pound Mountain Howitzer loaded with canister. It's one of the most insane gun stores I've ever read.

Awesome...

[CanRay]

"I fully support Gun Control. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that Civilians have a use for Artillery."

Actually, just said this line at my local FLGS/Army Surplus Store to the Ex-Military Owner (Who looked like I sprouted a second head there for a moment) when I started examining the 81mm Mortar Shell cases that he was selling. (Just the cases, no mortars or shells were available. I asked.). He smiled at the second part and agreed.

That said, there is a friend of the family that scares off the US Military with his cannon, so I might be wrong in that theory.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"I fully support Gun Control. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that Civilians have a use for Artillery."

Actually, just said this line at my local FLGS/Army Surplus Store to the Ex-Military Owner (Who looked like I sprouted a second head there for a moment) when I started examining the 81mm Mortar Shell cases that he was selling. (Just the cases, no mortars or shells were available. I asked.). He smiled at the second part and agreed.

That said, there is a friend of the family that scares off the US Military with his cannon, so I might be wrong in that theory.

Yep, I got to say, I heard several high ranking officers in the Corps discussing that very dilemma. One of these days they are going to get that lunatic, and then Canada will not be safe.

[Wounded Ronin]

Ahhh... Personally. Unfortunately, Personally, I cannot afford the firearms that I would truly like to have. Unfortunately, Family, Food and a Place to Live take precedence.

The cost of the gun is usually nothing. It's the cost of ammo that's the problem, if you want to develop FPS-hero like levels of skill, which are absolutely necessary in this day and age.

You know how we always like to talk about friendly neighborhood game shops? You need a friendly neighborhood gun shop. I was able to get a Kimber TLE2 custom, used, for only $600 or so one time at one.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The cost of the gun is usually nothing. It's the cost of ammo that's the problem, if you want to develop FPS-hero like levels of skill, which are absolutely necessary in this day and age.

You know how we always like to talk about friendly neighborhood game shops? You need a friendly neighborhood gun shop. I was able to get a Kimber TLE2 custom, used, for only $600 or so one time at one.

Nice...

[Wounded Ronin]

As with reality, guns tend to be really freaking similar. What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS?

Rage! The big differences are weight, reliability, recoil characteristics, trigger pull, and which one feels more comfortable in your hand.

What's the difference between a USP .45 ACP Compact Tactical and a WW2 vintage Colt M1911?

RAAAGGEEEEEE! Firstly, reliability. Secondly, durability. The vintage 1911 is going to be made with a softer steel and won't last for as many hundreds of thousands as rounds as the USP before the slide starts to crack. A true vintage 1911 will also be made with loose tolerances and will probably be less accurate than the USP, and more prone to failures especially when using hollow point or other speciality ammunition.

Thirdly, especially if we're talking about modern 1911s, a slender, comfortable grip, and a crisp trigger pull, and a safety you can ride. Why is it that all the top USPSA competitors shoot either glock or 1911 variants, and none of them shoot USP? Because the ones that they do use are better in all the small, right ways to make the difference between a champion and second place. I cannot believe you are even making a comparison between a USP and a 1911. They're completely different beasts which are used today by people with completely different things that they want from their weapons.

Have you ever tried to ride the decocker on a USP? As a 1911 shooter I've done that in the past. The result is causing a malfunction of the USP. The USP has got a characteristic Euro-wuss mushy trigger pull, and a huge part of the reason someone would use a 1911 instead is because they want a nice crisp trigger pull.

I really cannot believe you said they're similar.

Same goes for rifles: AK-47s and M-16s have their own distinctiveness and what could arguably lead to a well-reasoned argument on the pros and cons for either, but by and large the differences evaporate after two bullets go into the target.

RRRAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE! There's huge differences between the weapons! Reliability, and accuracy for the 400 yard headshot. Trauma and wounding, and penetration of solid objects, are all going to be different based on the different cartridges used by the respective rifles.

The M-16s nowadays come with nice accessories, but with an old AK 47 you're going to have to duct tape them on. This would really affect how easy it is to use the weapon and longer and longer ranges if you start adding the expensive optics.

The AK is a lot shorter than a full length M16 and is probably easier to use indoors. I would feel a lot more comfortable using my AK as a melee weapon than I would my AR.

With my AR I baby it a little bit. With the AK I use it cheerfully content in the knowledge that since it's not that accurate in the first place I don't need to stress as much when running around with it. I have a bayonet for the AK but not for the AR.

But the functional difference between getting shot with an M-16 or an AK-47 (or two different pistols) is, considering the amount of variability inherent in the SR system, going to be pretty small. Large gaps (light->heavy pistol, SMG->assault rifle) are mostly covered already.

See, if you really wanted to do it right, running a crisp high end 1911 would let you shoot just a little earlier than you normally would in the turn, representing superior handling and a crisp trigger pull, but then there'd be a 1% chance every time you pulled the trigger of getting a type 2 or type 3 malfunction.

The USP would have a lower chance of malfunction but that mushy trigger pull would not boost your initiative.

If you were running a Sig 226 and you fired your first double action shot, you'd take a very slight penalty to your initiative to represent the looooonnnngggg trigger pull and the need to adjust your finger position.

[Wounded Ronin]

Christ, it's all already too complicated for me. As much as it's kind of cool to stack recoil compensation, sometimes I wonder if we'd be better off with just stats for Light Pistol, Heavy Pistol, etc. But then again, me and my group are civilian as fuck and came to SR from systems like Cortex and BESM.

It's not really complicated once you've had the chance to go out and shoot. Once you've experienced a bunch of different firearms it's not complicated since you remember your experiences instead of having to abstract everything.

Why don't you come and take a vacation in Las Vegas? You'll be able to rent and fire a variety of guns, including handguns, rifles, submachine guns, rifles, automatic rifles, and even .30 caliber machine guns, at the local ranges.

[CanRay]

If I want a 1911... Er, was ever allowed to OWN a 1911, I should say, I'd get a Para-Ordinance myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tyro]

Y'know, I looked into flechette weapons, and from what I read it seems that they should have HIGHER AP and LOWER base damage - needle type rounds tend to go cleanly through an unarmored target, conserving more momentum than traditional bullets, but penetrate a vest better. Am I mistaken in this? Maybe they should be -1 DV, -5 AP (Impact).

[Edit:] Reversed an erroneous plus sign

[Yerameyahu]

You mean -AP, I think. Yup, if you were 'realistic' about it, flechette should pierce soft armor (but, of course, not hard armor). SR doesn't do it that way; instead, it's just techno-whizbang shotguns. *shrug*

[Tyro]

You mean -AP, I think. Yup, if you were 'realistic' about it, flechette should pierce soft armor (but, of course, not hard armor). SR doesn't do it that way; instead, it's just techno-whizbang shotguns. *shrug*

I think the best fix would be to keep shotguns as they are and make flechettes -1DV/-5AP (Impact). Thoughts?

[Yerameyahu]

Too good. That's the same as APDS, except 2R. Nothing wrong with the basic idea, though.

[Epicedion]

Rage! The big differences are weight, reliability, recoil characteristics, trigger pull, and which one feels more comfortable in your hand.

Right off the rails.

None of those things are modeled in the game, as with everything else in your post. Unless you want to model a few dozen more aspects of firearms in the game, there's nowhere to put any of that information.

[Wounded Ronin]

If I want a 1911... Er, was ever allowed to OWN a 1911, I should say, I'd get a Para-Ordinance myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Can you rent those in Canada? How did you come to realize that you wanted that particular 1911? Were you in the military?

[Wounded Ronin]

Right off the rails.

None of those things are modeled in the game, as with everything else in your post. Unless you want to model a few dozen more aspects of firearms in the game, there's nowhere to put any of that information.

I'd consider getting rid of certain things that are already in the game, such as super-awesome cumulative recoil compensation of headshotting death, and maybe instead implement some of this other stuff in its place. I mean as long as we're talking about messing with the rules in the first place.

[Epicedion]

You mean -AP, I think. Yup, if you were 'realistic' about it, flechette should pierce soft armor (but, of course, not hard armor). SR doesn't do it that way; instead, it's just techno-whizbang shotguns. *shrug*

I think the best fix would be to keep shotguns as they are and make flechettes -1DV/-5AP (Impact). Thoughts?

Regarding these two posts:

Impact armor is already relatively weak compared to Ballistic armor, so the grace of using Impact armor is usually worth a few points of AP on its own. It's only when you move up into high-grade combat armor or heavy modification that Impact armor is higher than the 4-6 range.

On top of that, +2 DV is probably worth negative 6-8 points of armor, strictly from a damage standpoint. So against your average target wearing a 6/4 armored vest, +2DV +5AP vs Impact is (conservatively) worth something like 3 gross AP in the shooter's favor (+6 damage mod -5 AP mod +2 Impact benefit, from the shooter's perspective).

More to the point, the 9 DV of the flechette shotgun is going to tie outright with the 4 +5 Impact armor, meaning any net hits gives you physical damage. On 1 net hit (10 DV), that target gets his 9 armor dice +3 (average) body, for 3-4 expected hits, or 6-7P damage. Comparatively, the 7 DV -1AP non-flechette shotgun with 1 net hit is going to do 8 DV against 5 Ballistic +3 Body, for 2-3 net hits, or 5-6P damage.

Against someone in an Armored Jacket (8/6), however, it skews a little differently. With 10 DV from the flechette round, you're looking at Stun damage (against Impact 11) and 14 dice (4ish hits), for an expected 6S. The slug, however, will only do its 8P, but that will breach the modified Ballistic 7, giving you an expected 3-ish hits, or 5P.

Beyond that, flechettes will need a lot of hits to cross into Physical damage.

What this amounts to is what we knew all along: flechettes are preferred against lightly armored or unarmored targets, while other ammo types are preferred against moderate to heavy armored targets, presuming you actually want your target to be physically injured and die. Flechettes still always come out ahead in the DV bonus vs AP penalty fight if all you're considering is raw damage, and don't care if it's S or P. The major downside to flechettes is that they will routinely fail against hardened armor.

[Yerameyahu]

You're right: shotguns are (and should be) be good at causing Stun damage (against armored people). I'd say more 6 than 8, by the way, which is presumably why they made the +AP 5.

Flechette, on the other hand, is supposedly designed to *pierce* soft armor (anything that's not literally solid plates). It's a mistake of terminology that SR uses flechette for shot.

I'd also be fine with the possibility of flechette ammo not having Spread; the Slivergun always sounded to me like it shot little spikes, not clouds of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This aspect is up for grabs, though, because the canon for flechette is a cloud of spikes (IIRC?).

Let's not even mention SnS, except that it's fundamentally superior to Stun-inflicting shotguns in every way.

[Epicedion]

I'd consider getting rid of certain things that are already in the game, such as super-awesome cumulative recoil compensation of headshotting death, and maybe instead implement some of this other stuff in its place. I mean as long as we're talking about messing with the rules in the first place.

Things like accuracy modifiers just don't mean very much compared to other things in the system. When the computer on your gun that predicts where to shoot based on range and target motion only grants you a +2 bonus, what do you think would be a fair bonus for being able to shoot a 4 inch group instead of a 6 inch group at 10 meters?

As a note, personal preference could be indicated by a focusing Specializations down to a single model of firearm (like "Ares Predator") instead of a loose collection (like "Semi-Automatics").

Other factors like durability and reliability would simply add unnecessary rolls and bookkeeping to the game. "Says on your sheet that you've fired 8000 rounds with that gun, time to put in for a replacement barrel!" Or, "You fire a shot. Now roll the weapon's chance to jam." Jams and more serious weapon issues are already designed to pop up on glitches and critical glitches. If you wanted to model an extremely unreliable gun, you could add in a quirk that the weapon needs one less '1' than usual to qualify for a glitch or critical glitch, or that glitches are worse than usual and critical glitches are beyond catastrophic (as with weapons like the Monowhip).

Now I'm usually a big house-ruler and I love designing new ways of doing things, but messing around with the firearms system is playing with fire. At best, you'll probably just manage to make it annoying.

[Epicedion]

You're right: shotguns are (and should be) be good at causing Stun damage (against armored people). I'd say more 6 than 8, by the way, which is presumably why they made the +AP 5.

Flechette, on the other hand, is supposedly designed to *pierce* soft armor (anything that's not literally solid plates). It's a mistake of terminology that SR uses flechette for shot.

I'd also be fine with the possibility of flechette ammo not having Spread; the Slivergun always sounded to me like it shot little spikes, not clouds of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This aspect is up for grabs, though, because the canon for flechette is a cloud of spikes (IIRC?).

Let's not even mention SnS, except that it's fundamentally superior to Stun-inflicting shotguns in every way.

Flechettes actually do pierce soft armor pretty well -- that +2 DV is nothing to sneeze at. You're at a better damage-to-soak ratio with +2DV +5AP than a flat -1AP. You're actually slightly better off than you would be with no DV modifier and -6AP. What you see, though, is that when you get to moderately-armored and better targets (Impact of 5+ or so), flechettes end up converted to Stun more often. They're still likely to do more raw damage.

[Muspellsheimr]

I'm interested to see the final result of this, as it appears to be a much more detailed version of a revision I was doing (basically, I was going to revise damage & ap values slightly, & change ammunition tracking from by weapon category to by caliber, based on damage & ap).

At the very least, you gave me what I needed to finish my revision - ammunition types (not being a major gun enthusiast myself).

[Tyro]

I would think flechettes would pierce plates better than bullets would - they don't deform nearly as much on impact, they have superior velocity, and they hit a much smaller surface area - thus, greater force per area, IIRC the defining trait of armor-piercing ammunition.

Also, as flechettes have negligible recoil (or should, anyway, based on what I've read), I should think they'd have less spread when fired in bursts or full auto, which ALSO improves AP capability.

[Tyro]

Too good. That's the same as APDS, except 2R. Nothing wrong with the basic idea, though.

APDS is DV +0, AP -4. I'm proposing DV -1, AP -5. I would also change flechettes (not shot) to Ballistic resistance, as they're actually going faster than most bullets. Basically a net AP -2 on average, with a greater chance of doing physical damage than normal bullets.

I would think flechettes would pierce plates better than bullets would - they don't deform nearly as much on impact, they have superior velocity, and they hit a much smaller surface area - thus, greater force per area, IIRC the defining trait of armor-piercing ammunition.

Also, as flechettes have negligible recoil (or should, anyway, based on what I've read), I should think they'd have less spread when fired in bursts or full auto, which ALSO improves AP capability.

As I mentioned before, fin-stabilized darts (which is essentially what things like the Tiffani Needler fire) tend to go cleanly through unarmored or lightly-armored targets and do less damage than bullets would.

This houserule (DV -1, AP -5) would make flechettes into cheaper, easier to find, but less effective AP ammo, and encourage the use of shotguns for less armored targets - a good thing in my book, as shotguns are rather underpowered in this edition compared to SMGs and assault rifles.

[Edit:] I should have said up front, I propose splitting flechettes into shot (shotguns) and darts (needle guns), superseding the SR4A description of flechette ammunition on page 323.

[Epicedion]

I would think flechettes would pierce plates better than bullets would - they don't deform nearly as much on impact, they have superior velocity, and they hit a much smaller surface area - thus, greater force per area, IIRC the defining trait of armor-piercing ammunition.

Also, as flechettes have negligible recoil (or should, anyway, based on what I've read), I should think they'd be better at hitting the same spot over and over when in BF or FA mode.

It comes down to the same force as a solid shot distributed over a wider area. You can get a little back from shaping the flechettes to maximize their individual force vs individual area, but the overall energy of each flechette will be much lower.

What you're thinking of is more like an APDS round.

[Tyro]

It comes down to the same force as a solid shot distributed over a wider area. You can get a little back from shaping the flechettes to maximize their individual force vs individual area, but the overall energy of each flechette will be much lower.

What you're thinking of is more like an APDS round.

I'm basing my view of flechettes on things like the needler, which sounds more like it fires fin-stabilized darts than a bunch of razor shards. I've looked into RL examples of flechette weapons, and the ones that were actually worth something all used that type of ammunition.

[Edit:] I should have said up front, I propose splitting flechettes into shot (shotguns) and darts (needle guns), superseding the SR4A description of flechette ammunition on page 323.

[Muspellsheimr]

they don't deform nearly as much on impact, they have superior velocity, and they hit a much smaller surface area

They also have a tenth of the mass & are easier to divert.

[Tyro]

Theoretically, the advantages of a needlegun over other projectile weapons are its compact size, high rate of fire, and ultra-high muzzle velocity. A needlegun takes advantage of the principles of kinetic energy and conservation of momentum, allowing a low-recoil delivery system to inflict significant damage to a target. Recoil is governed by momentum, which is the product of velocity and mass. By conservation of momentum, the change in momentum of the gun must equal the change in momentum of the projectile. The needle projectile has a very small mass, so its large change in velocity does not result in much recoil (change in velocity of the gun itself) since the gun has a mass much larger than the mass of the needle. Damage inflicted is related to the kinetic energy imparted by the projectile on the target, which is 1/2 the projectile's mass multiplied by its velocity squared. Since the needle has a very high velocity and a negligible mass, recoil is minimized at little cost to the kinetic energy of the projectile and its damage potential. The high rate of fire allows the user to fire many needles quickly with a minimal loss of accuracy due to recoil effects, giving the needlegun supposedly large damage potential and precision in combat.

-Wikipedia article on needleguns, emphasis mine

[Epicedion]

I'm basing my view of flechettes on things like the needler, which sounds more like it fires fin-stabilized darts than a bunch of razor shards. I've looked into RL examples of flechette weapons, and the ones that were actually worth something all used that type of ammunition.

[Edit:] I should have said up front, I propose splitting flechettes into shot (shotguns) and darts (needle guns), superseding the SR4A description of flechette ammunition on page 323.

Except SR flechette rounds are described as:

Flechette Rounds: Tiny, tightly packed metal slivers function as the business end of a flechette round. They are devastating against unprotected targets, but not very effective against rigid armor.

So SR flechette rounds are your tiny shards. I don't see a weapon in SR4 or Arsenal that disagrees with this description.

[Epicedion]

If you want to go all RL on the topic, that same Wikipedia article also says that the US developed several flechette weapons, but none had significant advantages over the M-16, so they didn't bother with them after. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for making super-AP flechette weapons.

Use APDS instead. It's exactly what you want.

[Tyro]

If you want to go all RL on the topic, that same Wikipedia article also says that the US developed several flechette weapons, but none had significant advantages over the M-16, so they didn't bother with them after. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for making super-AP flechette weapons.

Use APDS instead. It's exactly what you want.

Actually, it says they didn't meet the 100% improvement over the M-16 the military required.

[CanRay]

Can you rent those in Canada? How did you come to realize that you wanted that particular 1911? Were you in the military?

Rent a firearm, in Canada? HA! I can't even legally TOUCH someone's rifle without the right licenses. The likelihood of me getting one feels less likely every year, too.

As for why I know I want that particular type, a few reasons. Research for once. Secondly, they're Canadian. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) With the new laws about magazine size, I'd probably get their version of the 1911 rather than the high capacity models they started the company with. (They actually started making conversion kits for original 1911s to give them 14-round magazines.). Cripple magazines are not a good idea.

As for learning about them in the military, the Canadian Armed Forces still uses Browning Hi-Powers. I remember hearing somewhere that they're still issuing pistols that were manufactured for WWII, which are still waiting in the original crates, still in the packing grease. So I doubt I'd be able to play around with other options there. But to answer your question, no, I was never in the Canadian Armed Forces. I would never have been able to pass the physical.

[Epicedion]

Actually, it says they didn't meet the 100% improvement over the M-16 the military required.

"Although all the designs worked well, none managed to meet or even approach the 100% improvement over the M16A2 that the program demanded." If you drill down ever further.

Oddly enough, Ares Incorporated submitted an entry.

Steyr put in one of the more successful entries, but the round their weapon fired is definitely APDS.

[Yerameyahu]

Epicedion, you never actually read people's posts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Tyro was saying that he'd *like* flechette to shoot individual 'needles', as opposed to a *cloud* of tiny shards.

'Flechette' derives from something like 'little arrow', whereas SR4 flechette is something like 'sharpened shot' (instead of lead spheres).

Tyro, I don't value the -1DV as heavily as you do, that's all. The ability to breach -5 armor is a really big deal, compared to the highly-illegal APDS. For me, just being able to do P damage massively more often is enough to justify -2DV. Combine this injection toxins or something if you need more damage. I also *really* don't agree that they'd pierce 'hard' armor at all, but SR4 doesn't model that category anyway.

I'm on your side for the concept of low-damage, soft-armor-piercing flechette. It makes sense, because there are a lot of people out there in 2070 wearing armor clothing and the like. It's also a step against the basic SR4 system of the 'if it gets through armor at all, it's enough to kill you' problem. I continue to find it very strange than all the weapons have AP much lower than DV, ensuring large amounts of Stun damage, or the above 'catastrophic kill' situation.

[Fauxknight]

The M-16s nowadays come with nice accessories, but with an old AK 47 you're going to have to duct tape them on. This would really affect how easy it is to use the weapon and longer and longer ranges if you start adding the expensive optics.

Easily solvable, quad rails, AR style buffer tubes to mount AR stocks on, grips with storage and most other AR like accessories are readily available for AK and AK variants on top of thier own unique style accessories like side rail scope mounts. Granted AK 47 rounds do tend to have a lot more drop and are affected more by windage, but this is where a smartgun system would really shine, close the gap in accuracy and raw power becomes a much more important factor (althouh at longer ranges the AK 47 loses a lot of that raw power).

[Fauxknight]

Rent a firearm, in Canada? HA! I can't even legally TOUCH someone's rifle without the right licenses. The likelihood of me getting one feels less likely every year, too.

You need to make some trips to the states. I'll supply the ammo, though I don't have a 1911 yet, its on my list right up there with an AK47, AK 74, or Desert Eagle.

[CanRay]

Someday...

[capt.pantsless]

Random idea to the OP:

One other attribute you could add to your mega-chart is Quick-Draw ability- Smaller, lighter, or lower-ammo-capacity pistols should be slightly easier to get out of the holster than the big honking Ares Predator.

One way to model this is just have a single number for each frame, or each individual gun that represents the quick-draw threshold, the standard is 3, a machine-pistol might need 4 hits, or a specifically designed easy-to-draw light pistol might only need a 1. Furthermore, if the balance was right, there might be certain specialized SMGs that -could- be quick-drawn, but the threshold would be quite tougher - 5

You might need to re-work the quick-draw holster rules to add dice to the test as opposed to lower the threshold (threshold 0 tests are rather undramatic).

This could be a nice way to help balance-out the heavy-pistol vs. light pistol choices.

[Epicedion]

Epicedion, you never actually read people's posts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Tyro was saying that he'd *like* flechette to shoot individual 'needles', as opposed to a *cloud* of tiny shards.

'Flechette' derives from something like 'little arrow', whereas SR4 flechette is something like 'sharpened shot' (instead of lead spheres).

Tyro, I don't value the -1DV as heavily as you do, that's all. The ability to breach -5 armor is a really big deal, compared to the highly-illegal APDS. For me, just being able to do P damage massively more often is enough to justify -2DV. Combine this injection toxins or something if you need more damage. I also *really* don't agree that they'd pierce 'hard' armor at all, but SR4 doesn't model that category anyway.

I'm on your side for the concept of low-damage, soft-armor-piercing flechette. It makes sense, because there are a lot of people out there in 2070 wearing armor clothing and the like. It's also a step against the basic SR4 system of the 'if it gets through armor at all, it's enough to kill you' problem. I continue to find it very strange than all the weapons have AP much lower than DV, ensuring large amounts of Stun damage, or the above 'catastrophic kill' situation.

I do read the posts. What he wants is for SR4 flechettes to resemble certain kinds of RL flechettes, that SR4 already effectively models as APDS.

As for low-damage/armor-piercing: why? You seem to want a bullet that's specifically designed not to do Stun damage, but also not to kill people.

[Doc Chase]

As for low-damage/armor-piercing: why? You seem to want a bullet that's specifically designed not to do Stun damage, but also not to kill people.

I'd call it a subsonic round, better for use in enclosed spaces since it's quieter leaving the barrel.

[Epicedion]

I'd call it a subsonic round, better for use in enclosed spaces since it's quieter leaving the barrel.

Those are in Arsenal. They exchange an AP penalty for better Perception penalties, especially with a suppressor.

Anything that transfers less energy is going to do less damage and be worse against armor. There's no way to make something that's awesome at penetrating body armor but then poor against the flesh inside, unless you make slow-moving highly elastic teleporting bullets.

[Yerameyahu]

You're right, Epicedion. Tyro is talking about something that is in some ways similar to APDS. And I addressed the *numbers* in my post, but the concept is the same.

As for this bit ("There's no way to make something that's awesome at penetrating body armor but then poor against the flesh inside")… Sure there is. We're specifically talking about something that pierces. It goes through the soft armor, but then makes small holes in the flesh. So, you're right again: we *are* talking about something that's good at Physical, but is *balanced* by being less total damage (in boxes). Do you find that ridiculous?

At the moment, we're specifically talking about the Slivergun; it's weird (at least to me) that the slivergun is an automatic hand-shotgun, instead of a needle gun. I personally think it would be interesting if at least this one weapon had a funky piercing (and perhaps non-spread) attack. I'm pretty sick of everything doing Stun, or just murdering you outright. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The fact that real-life flechette exists (even just as a concept) provides a nice opportunity to tweak things.

[Epicedion]

As for this bit ("There's no way to make something that's awesome at penetrating body armor but then poor against the flesh inside")… Sure there is. We're specifically talking about something that pierces. It goes through the soft armor, but then makes small holes in the flesh. So, you're right again: we *are* talking about something that's good at Physical, but is *balanced* by being less total damage (in boxes). Do you find that ridiculous?

Actually, I do. Your steel/ceramic/duraplast/kevlar/ferrocrete/whatever shell of armor, even if it's just armored clothing, is orders of magnitude tougher than human skin. Its job is to absorb and distribute the force of a projectile impact, because the only way the projectile does serious damage is by concentrating its force on a small area. The better a projectile is at piercing the armor, the more energy that projectile is going to carry beyond the armor. The more damage it's going to do to whatever soft target is behind the tougher exterior.

Even in the case of overpenetration, the bullet is going to go clear through the target, causing rip-roaring entrance and exit damage.

What might do what you're thinking would be a bullet specifically designed to penetrate a certain kind/quantity of armor. We're talking exceedingly fine-tuned, beyond what would be reliably practical. This hypothetical bullet would be designed to breach that specific kind of armor, and then still have just enough leftover kinetic energy to do light damage.

But it would never function in the "real world."

At the moment, we're specifically talking about the Slivergun; it's weird (at least to me) that the slivergun is an automatic hand-shotgun, instead of a needle gun. I personally think it would be interesting if at least this one weapon had a funky piercing (and perhaps non-spread) attack. I'm pretty sick of everything doing Stun, or just murdering you outright. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The fact that real-life flechette exists (even just as a concept) provides a nice opportunity to tweak things.

The Slivergun isn't a shotgun, so doesn't use the shotgun spread rules (those rules are specific to shotguns, not all flechette weaponry). My view of the Slivergun, based on its description, is that it fires a light spray of small shards as opposed to bullets -- this isn't exactly the same as a shotgun firing flechettes, but the idea is that it has equivalent DV and AP mods. These shards lack any armor penetrating punch, but work well against bare skin.

The Slivergun is an assassin's weapon -- integral suppressor, burst fire, and the tiny fragments probably can't be analyzed and matched to a specific firearm.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not really worried about the 'real world', though. The SR game world has this crazy Stun issue, and it would interest me to change it. I don't particularly like the unclear spread-flechette vs. non-spread flechette issue (is it explained anywhere?), either. AFAIK, anything firing flechette that's not a shotgun is simply limited to Narrow Spread (mechanically identical), so I'm not saying there's a rules problem there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I certainly don't like weapons that function totally differently against bare skin vs. Rating 1 armor clothing (the famous leather jacket phenomenon). I also think that standard spherical shot fully covers the 'high damage, terrible against armor' paradigm, without wasting the flechette concept.

I understand that this thread is ostensibly about realism, and this might not go here, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[kzt]

Actually, I do. Your steel/ceramic/duraplast/kevlar/ferrocrete/whatever shell of armor, even if it's just armored clothing, is orders of magnitude tougher than human skin. Its job is to absorb and distribute the force of a projectile impact, because the only way the projectile does serious damage is by concentrating its force on a small area. The better a projectile is at piercing the armor, the more energy that projectile is going to carry beyond the armor. The more damage it's going to do to whatever soft target is behind the tougher exterior.

Even in the case of overpenetration, the bullet is going to go clear through the target, causing rip-roaring entrance and exit damage.

That is simply not true. This creates a kind of bullet wound called a through and through. This is typically a high velocity bullet that passes completely though the body. Typically the bullet remains completely stable, traveling point first, exits fully intact at high velocity and the very small amount of tissue it destroys holds nothing important. And the guy struck is largely unaffected. .30 cal carbine bullets were notorious for this in WW2.

Stable, solid, deeply penetrating are exactly what you want from an AP bullet. This is NOT what you want to maximize incapacitation.

[KarmaInferno]

Ideally, you want a bullet that penetrates armor with little to no lost energy, and then expands and ricochets around the innards, tumbling wildly.

In otherwords, a magic bullet.




-k

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed, kzt. I'm certainly not saying it would be optimal; far from it. I just think it would be an interesting, balanced alternative option in the game. The sort of opposite of a gel round. Especially with an injection poison gimmick option, or someone immune to Stun, or possibly a spirit's armor (tough call, there).

[Wounded Ronin]

That is simply not true. This creates a kind of bullet wound called a through and through. This is typically a high velocity bullet that passes completely though the body. Typically the bullet remains completely stable, traveling point first, exits fully intact at high velocity and the very small amount of tissue it destroys holds nothing important. And the guy struck is largely unaffected. .30 cal carbine bullets were notorious for this in WW2.

Stable, solid, deeply penetrating are exactly what you want from an AP bullet. This is NOT what you want to maximize incapacitation.

Oh, good to know. About .30 cal carbines I mean.

How does that compare to .357 magnum FMJ?

[Tyro]

I don't see what the big deal about physical damage is. Stun incapacitates as well or better (orks and trolls especially tend to have fewer stun boxes than physical ones), is better for your public image, is good for taking hostages/prisoners, and you can easily kill them later in many cases. 1 DV is equivalent to 3 AP on average, assuming you don't have more AP than they have armor. Needle ammo as I've suggested is less effective at damaging targets than EX-EX, but is relatively silent, essentially recoilless, has BF/FA capability in a small package, and is compact enough for very large magazine capacity; I see it as balanced. Changing needle-type flechettes to ballistic only makes sense, as they actually go significantly FASTER than standard bullets.

Incidentally, if you want something with great AP capabilities which also does massive internal damage, your best bet is probably a fin-stabilized dart which explodes once it pierces armor (maybe some kind of sensor to detonate it a hair after the resistance changes).

[Faraday]

I don't see what the big deal about physical damage is. Stun incapacitates as well or better (orks and trolls especially tend to have fewer stun boxes than physical ones), is better for your public image, is good for taking hostages/prisoners, and you can easily kill them later in many cases. 1 DV is equivalent to 3 AP on average, assuming you don't have more AP than they have armor. Needle ammo as I've suggested is less effective at damaging targets than EX-EX, but is relatively silent, essentially recoilless, has BF/FA capability in a small package, and is compact enough for very large magazine capacity; I see it as balanced. Changing needle-type flechettes to ballistic only makes sense, as they actually go significantly FASTER than standard bullets.

The funny thing about physical damage is... it kills you.

[Yerameyahu]

If they go faster than normal bullets, they're not silent (-er, -ish, anything).

The thing is, there are already plenty of options for stun: SnS, Gel, Capsule, shotguns (effectively), etc. I'd like something that could reliably do Physical, without being brokenly powerful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just for kicks. Physical is harder to heal, for one thing.