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Kerenshara
I've talked about it for a while here and there and tinkered with it back and forth. Well, the framework is done. All I need is a place to put up a lot of numbers. Anybody got some place I can stick it and link to it that's not an inane megaupload or something else SPAMmie?

Basically, the sort version is this:

Weapons are designed based on "frames", similar to SR3's Cannon Companion, but instead of being based on "description" and having the ammunition type tied to the frame, I broke it out by ammo type as well.

[ Spoiler ]


This allows for a wider diversity between designs with things often being a higher instance of a character picking something more apropriate to their role than just good numbers.

I had to tweak some of the range charts slightly, and the Medium Pistol cartridge was just in development 20 years ago. It's like a light pistol cartridge with slightly better penetration and range. Not as heavy hitting as a Heavy pistol though. And in a Submachine Gun it winds up doing 4P / -2 so it's less damaging than even a 9mm but more likely to penetrate light armor for physical damage. The entire thing is based on performance of the cartridge in various barrel lengths (simplified a LOT).

Anyhow, I need to sit down with all the weapons and crank them through and see where it takes me. THAT will take a bit more effort, but the cognitive part's done, finally.

For those who would argue it's "more complication" it's really no different than now, just the numbers in the charts are a tad different and more consistent. Weapons are a little more varried and unique. You're still referring to a chart and/or writing down the numbers in the same blanks.

The return of unique concealability as well as the addition of "accuracy" and "reliability", which are essentially optional, are even more flavor. Makes that AK97 seem more interesting because you just can't kill it, even though it's nothing numerically special now. Also helps explain the cost of sniper systems due to the custom machining and so forth.

-Kerenshara


Tyro
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Apr 2 2011, 09:50 PM) *
I've talked about it for a while here and there and tinkered with it back and forth. Well, the framework is done. All I need is a place to put up a lot of numbers. Anybody got some place I can stick it and link to it that's not an inane megaupload or something else SPAMmie?

Basically, the sort version is this:

Weapons are designed based on "frames", similar to SR3's Cannon Companion, but instead of being based on "description" and having the ammunition type tied to the frame, I broke it out by ammo type as well.

[ Spoiler ]


This allows for a wider diversity between designs with things often being a higher instance of a character picking something more apropriate to their role than just good numbers.

I had to tweak some of the range charts slightly, and the Medium Pistol cartridge was just in development 20 years ago. It's like a light pistol cartridge with slightly better penetration and range. Not as heavy hitting as a Heavy pistol though. And in a Submachine Gun it winds up doing 4P / -2 so it's less damaging than even a 9mm but more likely to penetrate light armor for physical damage. The entire thing is based on performance of the cartridge in various barrel lengths (simplified a LOT).

Anyhow, I need to sit down with all the weapons and crank them through and see where it takes me. THAT will take a bit more effort, but the cognitive part's done, finally.

For those who would argue it's "more complication" it's really no different than now, just the numbers in the charts are a tad different and more consistent. Weapons are a little more varried and unique. You're still referring to a chart and/or writing down the numbers in the same blanks.

The return of unique concealability as well as the addition of "accuracy" and "reliability", which are essentially optional, are even more flavor. Makes that AK97 seem more interesting because you just can't kill it, even though it's nothing numerically special now. Also helps explain the cost of sniper systems due to the custom machining and so forth.

-Kerenshara

I look forward to further development of this project.
Wounded Ronin
Yay, guns...guns and rules!
nezumi
Silly question, but... if everything is built around frames, what's the difference between a shotgun frame, a sports rifle frame, and a light assault rifle frame? I mean, if you slap a collapsible stock onto an automatic X, where does the one end and the other begin?

I could almost see putting it as:
Taser
Holdout Handgun
Compact Handgun
Full-sized Handgun
Machine Pistol
Compact SMG
Full-sized SMG
Carbine Rifle
Full-sized Rifle
Large-sized Rifle
Light Machine Gun
Medium Machine Gun
Large Machine Gun
Light Vehicle Weapon
Medium Vehicle Weapon
Large Vehicle Weapon

Size of the frame caps maximum caliber and barrel size and maximum number of modifications, but helps concealability.

If you want to make a carbine shotgun, you take the Carbine-sized Rifle frame, set it to 12 gauge ammunition and so on. An M-16 is Full-sized Frame, 5.56 ammo, 18" barrel, fully automatic. A sporting rifle is Full-sized Frame, 24" barrel, Semi-auto, .223 and so on.
Raven the Trickster
Interested to see how this develops. Maybe it'll be ready by the time I get a game going again biggrin.gif Of course, seeing as how I'm the only sam in the group at the moment I may not be able to get it to fly. We'll have to see how it goes.
Kerenshara
Well, the existing system amalgamates damage, range, size and everything else by "type". So all SMGs start with 5P/-/SA&BF/Clip Fed/same range and is modified from there for flavor. All Assault Rifles are 6P/-1/SA&B&FA/Flip Fed/same range and so forth. Where changes are made for flavor, they aren't always consistent. I'm really BIG on consistency.

Warning: Wall O' Text follows!
[ Spoiler ]


OK, having explained my reasoning, does my approach make a bit more sense now?

-Kerenshara
Yerameyahu
I agree with the concept. SR4 only has about 8 guns, after all. The various models are just tweaked versions of each other, and yes, the tweaks aren't always fair. I like the way they basically erased that in Eclipse Phase.
Raven the Trickster
The more I see, the more I like the concept. It all generally makes sense to me. I'm not quite enough of a gun nut to come up with something like this reasonably, but I'm more than enough of one to use it if it's there.
Stahlseele
Oi, good to see you back and posting on stuff that's of interest to you Kerenshara.
And still with that irritating font i see *snickers* ^^
Tyro
I don't have the background to understand the work behind it, but I have enough gun knowledge to appreciate that you know what you're talking about and that your system is better for game balance. There's a good chance I might use it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 3 2011, 03:11 PM) *
I don't have the background to understand the work behind it, but I have enough gun knowledge to appreciate that you know what you're talking about and that your system is better for game balance. There's a good chance I might use it.


Not really better for game balance. It is more flavorful for Gun Enthusiasts, but that is really it. Simpler is always better, after all. Though, I do get that the Simple Aspects of Shadowrun 4A are what is in question here. Not everyone likes that. I think the current classifications for Firearms work for what SR4A is trying to emulate.

Good Luck with the project Kerenshara. Always interested in the outcome.
Tyro
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 3 2011, 01:51 PM) *
Not really better for game balance. It is more flavorful for Gun Enthusiasts, but that is really it. Simpler is always better, after all. Though, I do get that the Simple Aspects of Shadowrun 4A are what is in question here. Not everyone likes that. I think the current classifications for Firearms work for what SR4A is trying to emulate.

Good Luck with the project Kerenshara. Always interested in the outcome.

More balanced firearms means you can look beyond Ares Alphas and Praetor E's, though. The idea of an ultimate weapon for all situations is ludicrous. I disagree that simpler is always better.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 3 2011, 02:17 PM) *
Oi, good to see you back and posting on stuff that's of interest to you Kerenshara.
And still with that irritating font i see *snickers* ^^

You just noticed I'm back?

You know I use that font just for you, Stahl. Everybody knows you're happiest when you have something to grump about that doesn't actually piss you off. *grin*

-Kerenshara
Tyro
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Apr 3 2011, 04:18 PM) *
You just noticed I'm back?

You know I use that font just for you, Stahl. Everybody knows you're happiest when you have something to grump about that doesn't actually piss you off. *grin*

-Kerenshara

Why DO you use that font, anyway?
Yerameyahu
That *is* the reason.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 3 2011, 04:35 PM) *
More balanced firearms means you can look beyond Ares Alphas and Praetor E's, though. The idea of an ultimate weapon for all situations is ludicrous. I disagree that simpler is always better.


Interesting, since I have never used an Ares Alpha or a Praetor for a character. Blows that theory right out of the water I guess.
Yerameyahu
Again, Tymeaus, your anecdotal evidence will never be admissible. biggrin.gif You *know* that.

On the other hand, I'm partial to a really nice machine pistol, personally, and it depends if an F avail is a problem. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 3 2011, 07:34 PM) *
Again, Tymeaus, your anecdotal evidence will never be admissible. biggrin.gif You *know* that.

On the other hand, I'm partial to a really nice machine pistol, personally, and it depends if an F avail is a problem. smile.gif


Anecdotal Evidence from YOUR table Yerameyahu? What ever shall we do? wobble.gif
I see no reason my evidence is any less admissable than yours is... biggrin.gif

I have a preference for the FN 5-7C Machine Pistol, the Ares Protector, and the Sernopal vz-88 for Automatics Preferences.
The Savalette Guardian and the Ares Light Fire/Hammerli 620 are my normal Go-To's for Pistols. Though I do like the Ruger Super Warhawk for my Ganger character.

And though the Barrett is Nice, I prefer the HK PSG-1 for my Sniping.
Yerameyahu
You do too know why, Tymeaus. nyahnyah.gif And I wasn't giving any evidence: I said 'personally', not for my characters.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 3 2011, 07:58 PM) *
You do too know why, Tymeaus. nyahnyah.gif And I wasn't giving any evidence: I said 'personally', not for my characters.



Ahhh... Personally. Unfortunately, Personally, I cannot afford the firearms that I would truly like to have. Unfortunately, Family, Food and a Place to Live take precedence.
Kerenshara
Odd that you like the FN 5-7C, because I think it gets short shrift. Going with the new rules mentioned above, it switches to Medium Pistol ammo and becomes 4P/-1 with a roughly Heavy Pistol ranges. It's based on a real weapon and while it packs less wallop than a .45 ACP, it penetrates through both sides of a Class III vest from a longer barrel. The Praetor becomes 4P/-2 (Loss of 1 damage, improve AP by 2) - same round. It's not a Gods weapon because it lowers the damage code. It's just slightly more likely to achieve physical (as opposed to stun) damage against light armor.

Tyro: Long story. I actually started out with said font on another size and green writing for a RP element (think: Matrix). The outcry - more over the color actually - had me go back and edit 100+ posts. But I like how it looks. I wasn't an issue last time I was a common poster here (18 months ago+) but now it seems to get more press. I'd consider dropping it but most people don't seem to think it's a problem, no Mods have said drek to me, and the people who DO complain tend to be trolls (with all the attendant "pisses ME off to see them hijack MY threads") so at this point, I'm keeping it as much to torq them off as because I like it. Fair?

-Kerenshara
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Apr 3 2011, 08:23 PM) *
Odd that you like the FN 5-7C, because I think it gets short shrift. Going with the new rules mentioned above, it switches to Medium Pistol ammo and becomes 4P/-1 with a roughly Heavy Pistol ranges. It's based on a real weapon and while it packs less wallop than a .45 ACP, it penetrates through both sides of a Class III vest from a longer barrel. The Praetor becomes 4P/-2 (Loss of 1 damage, improve AP by 2) - same round. It's not a Gods weapon because it lowers the damage code. It's just slightly more likely to achieve physical (as opposed to stun) damage against light armor.
-Kerenshara


Yeah, maybe, but adding all that just adds to complexity. I like it simple. It may be more realistic, but I have given up realism in Firearms/Ordnance a long time ago, even if I do still complain about it from time to time.

If I wanted longer ranges from the FN 5-7C, I would just add a longer barrel in modification. Makes it easy. I do not think the Praetor is all that by the base system anyways, so reducing it makes no sense to me, really. I am completely happy with taking a stock weapon, and making it what I want it to be in Modification. At least that way, it is generally playable at any table I might happen to find myself at. House rules tend to cause issues, especially if you play in mutiple games where the house rules could be quite different. This is one of the reasons teh tables I play at minimize house rules. We may throw in an optional rule from time to time, but we frown upon actual House Rules.

Admittedly, though, we are using a house rule for Initiative/Initiaive Pass Resolution. It has its ups and downs, and in general I do not like it, But it works for the intended purpose of the GM.
Angelone
Interesting, I'm looking foward to see what you come up with.

I like the Nitama Optima better than the Ares Alpha. My favorite firearm though is the Ceska Black Scorpion.
CanRay
I used to swear by the Browning Ultrapower, but the Colt M2066 looks like a nice chunk of gunmetal...
Faraday
I have found a new favorite in the ruger warhawk. Makes for a great drone killer. Goes great with a Slivergun, which is another favorite. I tend to go Mannlicher for a longarm. biggrin.gif
Epicedion
I think that even the SR4 weapons have plenty of variation within them if you check out their text entries rather than simply comparing damage/AP/etc.

As with reality, guns tend to be really freaking similar. What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS? Not much. What's the difference between a USP .45 ACP Compact Tactical and a WW2 vintage Colt M1911? Not a whole heck of a lot. Same goes for rifles: AK-47s and M-16s have their own distinctiveness and what could arguably lead to a well-reasoned argument on the pros and cons for either, but by and large the differences evaporate after two bullets go into the target.

Most firearms are remarkably similar, with major differences simply coming down to extra features, durability, and reliability. Durability and reliability have effectively been written out of the SR system. Just about everything else is personal preference.

If you want to carefully design and model a bunch of new weapons based off a common system, that's great. I think you'd probably be better served just adding new weapons in the following fashion:

Select the category (light pistol, assault rifle, etc), then apply the category standards for that weapon. Then tweak those slightly if you feel the need (for a more/less powerful or better/worse AP weapon). Settle on firing mode, ammo capacity, and any standard/integrated benefits (Recoil Compensation, smartguns, etc). Then, consider adding a quirk or two.

A quirk would be something like the Hammerli 620S range adjustment -- it's a light pistol that uses heavy pistol ranges.

But the functional difference between getting shot with an M-16 or an AK-47 (or two different pistols) is, considering the amount of variability inherent in the SR system, going to be pretty small. Large gaps (light->heavy pistol, SMG->assault rifle) are mostly covered already.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 3 2011, 10:49 PM) *
I think that even the SR4 weapons have plenty of variation within them if you check out their text entries rather than simply comparing damage/AP/etc.

As with reality, guns tend to be really freaking similar. What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS? Not much. What's the difference between a USP .45 ACP Compact Tactical and a WW2 vintage Colt M1911? Not a whole heck of a lot. Same goes for rifles: AK-47s and M-16s have their own distinctiveness and what could arguably lead to a well-reasoned argument on the pros and cons for either, but by and large the differences evaporate after two bullets go into the target.

Most firearms are remarkably similar, with major differences simply coming down to extra features, durability, and reliability. Durability and reliability have effectively been written out of the SR system. Just about everything else is personal preference.

If you want to carefully design and model a bunch of new weapons based off a common system, that's great. I think you'd probably be better served just adding new weapons in the following fashion:

Select the category (light pistol, assault rifle, etc), then apply the category standards for that weapon. Then tweak those slightly if you feel the need (for a more/less powerful or better/worse AP weapon). Settle on firing mode, ammo capacity, and any standard/integrated benefits (Recoil Compensation, smartguns, etc). Then, consider adding a quirk or two.

A quirk would be something like the Hammerli 620S range adjustment -- it's a light pistol that uses heavy pistol ranges.

But the functional difference between getting shot with an M-16 or an AK-47 (or two different pistols) is, considering the amount of variability inherent in the SR system, going to be pretty small. Large gaps (light->heavy pistol, SMG->assault rifle) are mostly covered already.


Indeed, This is pretty much the way we go about it at our table, even if it has no relevance Yerameyahu... biggrin.gif
nezumi
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Apr 3 2011, 12:22 PM) *
I'm really BIG on consistency.


I guess that's where I disagree. I assume you're trying to be consistent with pre-existing SR4 guns, but I would have to ask, why? I have plenty of SR4 guns, and it's not hard to make up more on a case-by-case basis. Speaking for myself, I would find a lot more value from something like what Raygun did, where he made an entire alternate system based off of reality. That gives me choices. Otherwise it's just 'more of the same'. (Of course, that's just me and my table - if keeping consistent with SR4 is more useful to you, obviously that's what you should do!)

QUOTE
Now, all rifles originate from the basic Sport (hunting) Rifle at some point.


We agreed on everything prior to rifles, and this part seems to support my question. ARs, sniper rifles and sport rifles all based on a standard rifle platform. So why do you break them up? Just to be consistent with what SR4 has already established, where a .308 does more damage coming from a 22" 'sniper rifle' barrel than it does from a 28" 'sporting rifle' barrel?

QUOTE
Shotguns are not just large-bore rifles.


That would seem to depend on the round, no? 28 gauge isn't all that big. Sure, 12-gauge is pretty hefty compared to a 5.56 round, but the actual frame of the shotgun isn't any bigger. My wife has less problem with our 20-gauge than with most AR-15s because it's more compact.

I suppose my question is, how is the FRAME different - not the feeder mechanism or the upper received or the barrel. I know the barrel is wider and all the equipment inside is bigger, but the actual frame would seem to be interchangeable, not counting the shottie may be a bit broader to fit wider receivers. It would seem that, mechanically, you can have rifles in sizes 1-4, with 1 being suitable for .22 or .32, 4 being appropriate for .50 BMG, then just specify only frames 3 and 4 can be used for shotguns.

CanRay
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 4 2011, 12:49 AM) *
AK-47s and M-16s have their own distinctiveness and what could arguably lead to a well-reasoned argument on the pros and cons for either, but by and large the differences evaporate after two bullets go into the target.

AK-74 and M-16 are better rifles to compare against each other.

AK-47 and FN FAL are better weapons to compare to one another.
Fauxknight
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Apr 3 2011, 12:50 AM) *
[list]
[*]Light Pistol (9mm and similar)
[*]Medium Pistol (5.7x29mm and similar light high speed rounds)


This had me wondering, the common 9x19mm is a heavier harder-hitting round than the 5-7, unless you're not referencing the 9x19mm but rather something shorter like a .380 ACP.

QUOTE
Shotguns are not just large-bore rifles. On the contrary, they have an entirely different set of constraints on their design due to the historically abnormal characteristics of their rounds. Yes, you can have a fully automatic Shotgun, but it's not just a big Assault Rifle or even Battle Rifle. It's bleeding BIG.


Shotguns are required by several countries to have longer barrels then rifles, that combined with the longer barrels favored for common shotgun uses like hunting and trap means they are generally on the large end. Other than tradition and perception, shotguns can and are built on assault rifle frames. One example would be the Saiga line that Izhmash makes which is an AK frame that comes in rifle bores of .223, 5.45. 7.62x39, .308 and shotgun bores of .410, 20 gauge, and 12 gauge. Shotguns don't run at as high of pressures as rifles so they end up having a similar diameter barrel as a rifle, just with much thinner walls, the primary difference would be ammunition capacity, 12 gauge magazine and drums don't hold anywhere close to a similar sized magazine or drum made for assault rifle ammo (this will be slightly less true when double stack magazines are finally available for shotgun bores-they are in research atm).

I do agree that one of the things I find overall lacking in SR firearms is ingenuity, while they added handheld laser weaponry they haven't come close to some of the new firearms designs that are coming out. The SR3 Cannon Companion at least allowed some reasonable customization, but SR4/SR4A is far more limited in what is allowed. They did add a Metal storm pistol, but didn't seem to consider making any other weapons using the technology. Why not make a rifle version with similar benefits? Not to mention the artist drew the pistol as 4 barrels stacked rather than 4 barrels in a square or diamond pattern, the stack makes no sense, it takes up a ton of extra room and would be less accurate.
Fauxknight
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 4 2011, 12:49 AM) *
What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS?


One is aesthetically pleasing to look at while the other is a brick?
Epicedion
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 4 2011, 09:27 AM) *
AK-74 and M-16 are better rifles to compare against each other.

AK-47 and FN FAL are better weapons to compare to one another.


Why, because of the caliber? It really doesn't matter all that much. The 5.56mm round is somewhat more likely to leave you incapacitated and wounded, while the 7.62mm round is somewhat more likely to leave you incapacitated and dead. Since assault rifles in SR don't do enough damage to do either without some sort of exceptional success backing them, it doesn't really matter.

Like I said, there's some place for debate on the real pros and cons of these sorts of individual weapons, but SR is too abstracted to portray these accurately. You'd have to add a lot of meat to the combat system itself to really sort out the differences.
Yerameyahu
Indeed. It's important to remember that SR wants realism like Airsoft wants realism: for show only, to please the gun-otaku. The mechanics are fine as mere categories. I do like the idea of making the 'suggested models' less obviously imbalanced, though. wink.gif
Fauxknight
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 4 2011, 02:08 PM) *
Like I said, there's some place for debate on the real pros and cons of these sorts of individual weapons, but SR is too abstracted to portray these accurately. You'd have to add a lot of meat to the combat system itself to really sort out the differences.


Or just vary weapons a little more by base damage and AP, then add in some accuracy and/or range adjustments in some individual weapon descriptions and viola you have slightly more interesting weapons.
kzt
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 3 2011, 10:49 PM) *
As with reality, guns tend to be really freaking similar. What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS? Not much. What's the difference between a USP .45 ACP Compact Tactical and a WW2 vintage Colt M1911? Not a whole heck of a lot. Same goes for rifles: AK-47s and M-16s have their own distinctiveness and what could arguably lead to a well-reasoned argument on the pros and cons for either, but by and large the differences evaporate after two bullets go into the target.

Most firearms are remarkably similar, with major differences simply coming down to extra features, durability, and reliability. Durability and reliability have effectively been written out of the SR system. Just about everything else is personal preference.

I'd argue that SR actually divides too much. "Service handguns", to steal a phrase from gunsite, all have generally similar effects on the target whether they are Glocks shooting 9mm, or Glocks shooting .357 SIG or 1911 shooting .45 etc, a Bren 10 shooting 10mm, etc They all suck compared to rifles or shotguns, they all depend on hit location, and they all usually require multiple hits unless you get actually hit something very vital or the target gives up.

There are light pistols (say .22 to .380), pistols (Markov - 10mm) and heavy pistols (essentially hunting pistols like .500 SW that should totally suck in combat). SMGs are pistols with a stock and better sights. Then you have carbines (rifle rounds like 5.45, 5.56, 6.5, 7.62mmx39 {including LMGs} whether short barreled or not - that modifies range not damage), rifles (7mm full power and up, includes MMGs), and heavy weapons (408 .408 Chey Tac, .50 cal, 14.5 etc), cannon (20mm and up, = your dead). Those are all generalities, not absolutes.

Tasers need a completely rebuilt damage system, as they don't work like other weapons. They immobilize targets and inflict a lot of pain but essentially minimal damage of any sort.
Raven the Trickster
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 4 2011, 02:20 PM) *
Tasers need a completely rebuilt damage system, as they don't work like other weapons. They immobilize targets and inflict a lot of pain but essentially minimal damage of any sort.


Unless the target has a heart condition, but that isn't really modeled in SR either in any way shape or form.
Yerameyahu
Sounds like a great Negative Quality, though. "Without special implants/gear, make an Edge (X) test every time you're struck with a Taser… or drop dead." biggrin.gif
Fauxknight
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 4 2011, 02:34 PM) *
Sounds like a great Negative Quality, though. "Without special implants/gear, make an Edge (X) test every time you're struck with a Taser… or drop dead." biggrin.gif


Considering stick-n-shock thats like a 30 point negative quality!!
Yerameyahu
Yup. smile.gif Besides, Tasers are probably *really* common for normal people, cops, etc. That's what makes it fun. Maybe you can get a pacemaker or drugs or something. Be creative.
nezumi
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 4 2011, 01:20 PM) *
Then you have carbines (rifle rounds like 5.45, 5.56, 6.5, 7.62mmx39 {including LMGs} whether short barreled or not - that modifies range not damage), rifles (7mm full power and up, includes MMGs), and heavy weapons (408 .408 Chey Tac, .50 cal, 14.5 etc), cannon (20mm and up, = your dead). Those are all generalities, not absolutes.


I would be inclined to break out MGs compared to rifles. In SR, 'LMG' is, at minimum, an M-60, which makes it comparable in frame to a 'large' rifle. MMGs are not man-portable. Just for the sake of clarity between 'vanilla' and 'Kerensha' SR players, keeping that match and wrapping your 'LMGs' as some sort of assault rifle may be best.
Yerameyahu
Actually, isn't the SR4 LMG exactly the same as an AR (DV/AP)? And doesn't that basically reflect reality (like M249)? The MMGs are rougher, *sorta* like the sport rifles, and the HMGs are like sniper rifles (again, even rougher).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 4 2011, 11:56 AM) *
I would be inclined to break out MGs compared to rifles. In SR, 'LMG' is, at minimum, an M-60, which makes it comparable in frame to a 'large' rifle. MMGs are not man-portable. Just for the sake of clarity between 'vanilla' and 'Kerensha' SR players, keeping that match and wrapping your 'LMGs' as some sort of assault rifle may be best.


An SR LMG is like the SAW for the marine Corps. This is a lightweight, 5.56 mm Machine Gun. A GPMG (MMG) is the M60 that you are referring to. MMG's are VERY man-portable. Carried one for a long time in the corps. You are thinking the HMG (.50 M2 or the Russian KPV). These are Crew Serverd Weapons in every sense of the word.
nezumi
I guess SR4 changes things from SR3, where the rules specifically stated MMGs are not man-portable.
Megu
Christ, it's all already too complicated for me. As much as it's kind of cool to stack recoil compensation, sometimes I wonder if we'd be better off with just stats for Light Pistol, Heavy Pistol, etc. But then again, me and my group are civilian as fuck and came to SR from systems like Cortex and BESM.
CanRay
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 4 2011, 12:49 AM) *
What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS?

Two rounds for the magazine, a different system of operation, different trigger/safety system, a barrel and frame that won't crap out after a mere couple ten thousands of rounds, plastic grip and ceramics in the design, will actually function a bit better if abused...

Quite a bit of difference, actually. In Shadowrun, most of that would be fluff, however.
CanRay
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 4 2011, 02:44 PM) *
An SR LMG is like the SAW for the marine Corps. This is a lightweight, 5.56 mm Machine Gun. A GPMG (MMG) is the M60 that you are referring to. MMG's are VERY man-portable. Carried one for a long time in the corps. You are thinking the HMG (.50 M2 or the Russian KPV). These are Crew Serverd Weapons in every sense of the word.

I still want an M60E4.

Purely for hunting, of course.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 4 2011, 08:59 PM) *
I still want an M60E4.

Purely for hunting, of course.


Funny; I want a Pancor for the same reason. Bird hunting.

By flock.
Stahlseele
i'm still jealous over the fact that one can, kinda legally, own a light fifty in the us of a <.<
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 4 2011, 09:02 PM) *
i'm still jealous over the fact that one can, kinda legally, own a light fifty in the us of a <.<


If you have the money, you certainly can. One of these days I'll get incorpor-wait, I know a guy who owns a security firm.

I'll just have him buy the light fifty and mount it on the hood of his Chevy Malibu.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 4 2011, 02:59 PM) *
I still want an M60E4.

Purely for hunting, of course.


Well, if you are talking about Hunting, I prefer an old-style Gatling Gun in 45-70 Caliber. biggrin.gif
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