Firearms that make sense..., Internal consistency and a little more realism Options

[Kerenshara]

I've talked about it for a while here and there and tinkered with it back and forth. Well, the framework is done. All I need is a place to put up a lot of numbers. Anybody got some place I can stick it and link to it that's not an inane megaupload or something else SPAMmie?

Basically, the sort version is this:

Weapons are designed based on "frames", similar to SR3's Cannon Companion, but instead of being based on "description" and having the ammunition type tied to the frame, I broke it out by ammo type as well.

[ Spoiler ]

Frames

• Taser (Taser only)
• Hold-Out Pistol
• Compact Frame Pistol
• Full Frame Pistol
• Machine Pistol
• Submachine Gun
• Carbine
• Assault Rifle (Light Rifle only but I am toying with how to do Beowulf)
• Battle Rifle (Medium Rifle only but I am toying with how to do Beowulf)
• Sport Rifle
• Sniper Rifle
• Light Machine Gun (Light Rifle only)
• Medium Machine Gun (Medium Rifle only)
• Heavy Machine Gun (X Rifle only)
• Shotgun (Shotgun only)
• Assault Cannon (Assault Cannon only)

Ammunition Types

• Light Pistol (9mm and similar)
• Medium Pistol (5.7x29mm and similar light high speed rounds)
• Heavy Pistol (.45 and similar)
• X Pistol (.50 AE and similar)
• Light Rifle (6.5 Grendel and similar)
• Medium Rifle (7.62x51 NATO and similar)
• Heavy Rifle (.338 Lapua Magnum and similar)
• X Rifle (.50 BMG and similar)
  

This allows for a wider diversity between designs with things often being a higher instance of a character picking something more apropriate to their role than just good numbers.

I had to tweak some of the range charts slightly, and the Medium Pistol cartridge was just in development 20 years ago. It's like a light pistol cartridge with slightly better penetration and range. Not as heavy hitting as a Heavy pistol though. And in a Submachine Gun it winds up doing 4P / -2 so it's less damaging than even a 9mm but more likely to penetrate light armor for physical damage. The entire thing is based on performance of the cartridge in various barrel lengths (simplified a LOT).

Anyhow, I need to sit down with all the weapons and crank them through and see where it takes me. THAT will take a bit more effort, but the cognitive part's done, finally.

For those who would argue it's "more complication" it's really no different than now, just the numbers in the charts are a tad different and more consistent. Weapons are a little more varried and unique. You're still referring to a chart and/or writing down the numbers in the same blanks.

The return of unique concealability as well as the addition of "accuracy" and "reliability", which are essentially optional, are even more flavor. Makes that AK97 seem more interesting because you just can't kill it, even though it's nothing numerically special now. Also helps explain the cost of sniper systems due to the custom machining and so forth.

-Kerenshara

[Tyro]

I've talked about it for a while here and there and tinkered with it back and forth. Well, the framework is done. All I need is a place to put up a lot of numbers. Anybody got some place I can stick it and link to it that's not an inane megaupload or something else SPAMmie?

Basically, the sort version is this:

Weapons are designed based on "frames", similar to SR3's Cannon Companion, but instead of being based on "description" and having the ammunition type tied to the frame, I broke it out by ammo type as well.

[ Spoiler ]

Frames

• Taser (Taser only)
• Hold-Out Pistol
• Compact Frame Pistol
• Full Frame Pistol
• Machine Pistol
• Submachine Gun
• Carbine
• Assault Rifle (Light Rifle only but I am toying with how to do Beowulf)
• Battle Rifle (Medium Rifle only but I am toying with how to do Beowulf)
• Sport Rifle
• Sniper Rifle
• Light Machine Gun (Light Rifle only)
• Medium Machine Gun (Medium Rifle only)
• Heavy Machine Gun (X Rifle only)
• Shotgun (Shotgun only)
• Assault Cannon (Assault Cannon only)

Ammunition Types

• Light Pistol (9mm and similar)
• Medium Pistol (5.7x29mm and similar light high speed rounds)
• Heavy Pistol (.45 and similar)
• X Pistol (.50 AE and similar)
• Light Rifle (6.5 Grendel and similar)
• Medium Rifle (7.62x51 NATO and similar)
• Heavy Rifle (.338 Lapua Magnum and similar)
• X Rifle (.50 BMG and similar)
  

This allows for a wider diversity between designs with things often being a higher instance of a character picking something more apropriate to their role than just good numbers.

I had to tweak some of the range charts slightly, and the Medium Pistol cartridge was just in development 20 years ago. It's like a light pistol cartridge with slightly better penetration and range. Not as heavy hitting as a Heavy pistol though. And in a Submachine Gun it winds up doing 4P / -2 so it's less damaging than even a 9mm but more likely to penetrate light armor for physical damage. The entire thing is based on performance of the cartridge in various barrel lengths (simplified a LOT).

Anyhow, I need to sit down with all the weapons and crank them through and see where it takes me. THAT will take a bit more effort, but the cognitive part's done, finally.

For those who would argue it's "more complication" it's really no different than now, just the numbers in the charts are a tad different and more consistent. Weapons are a little more varried and unique. You're still referring to a chart and/or writing down the numbers in the same blanks.

The return of unique concealability as well as the addition of "accuracy" and "reliability", which are essentially optional, are even more flavor. Makes that AK97 seem more interesting because you just can't kill it, even though it's nothing numerically special now. Also helps explain the cost of sniper systems due to the custom machining and so forth.

-Kerenshara

I look forward to further development of this project.

[Wounded Ronin]

Yay, guns...guns and rules!

[nezumi]

Silly question, but... if everything is built around frames, what's the difference between a shotgun frame, a sports rifle frame, and a light assault rifle frame? I mean, if you slap a collapsible stock onto an automatic X, where does the one end and the other begin?

I could almost see putting it as:
Taser
Holdout Handgun
Compact Handgun
Full-sized Handgun
Machine Pistol
Compact SMG
Full-sized SMG
Carbine Rifle
Full-sized Rifle
Large-sized Rifle
Light Machine Gun
Medium Machine Gun
Large Machine Gun
Light Vehicle Weapon
Medium Vehicle Weapon
Large Vehicle Weapon

Size of the frame caps maximum caliber and barrel size and maximum number of modifications, but helps concealability.

If you want to make a carbine shotgun, you take the Carbine-sized Rifle frame, set it to 12 gauge ammunition and so on. An M-16 is Full-sized Frame, 5.56 ammo, 18" barrel, fully automatic. A sporting rifle is Full-sized Frame, 24" barrel, Semi-auto, .223 and so on.

[Raven the Tricks...]

Interested to see how this develops. Maybe it'll be ready by the time I get a game going again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Of course, seeing as how I'm the only sam in the group at the moment I may not be able to get it to fly. We'll have to see how it goes.

[Kerenshara]

Well, the existing system amalgamates damage, range, size and everything else by "type". So all SMGs start with 5P/-/SA&BF/Clip Fed/same range and is modified from there for flavor. All Assault Rifles are 6P/-1/SA&B&FA/Flip Fed/same range and so forth. Where changes are made for flavor, they aren't always consistent. I'm really BIG on consistency.

Warning: Wall O' Text follows!

[ Spoiler ]

For example: Medium Machine Guns, Battle Rifles, small caliber Sniper Rifles and mid caliber Sport Rifles all fire some round that is, for game purposes, functionally identical. Let's go with the 7.62x51mm NATO round because it's pretty common, and there's a civilian market version (.308 Winchester). All but the Sniper Rifle have barrels between 18" and 22" in length (the Sniper Rifle is 22" to 30" long). So why does every one of them have different penetration ratings? If the argument is that civilian weapons don't penetrate as well, tell that to the cop shot through his vest by a 30-06 rifle which arguably is even more powerful without getting to the next game-significant damage level.

So, the pistols are all designed to be held and fired with one hand (Weaver Stance not withstanding). I diferentiated then by a combination of barrel length and grip length. Several "Heavy Pistols" have a compact version listed (Walther Secura Kompakt) but have reduced ammunition and improved concealability. The approach seemed a bit ham-handed to me, so I diferentiated it by the side of the frame and then had a version of each by round.

Hold-Out pistols have barrels <4" (10cm) in length, usually have a single-stack magazine and a short magazine well. Small Frame and Full Frame pistols have the same barrel lengths (4" - 7"/10cm - 17cm), and share double-stacked magazine wells; What diferentiates them is the depth of the magazine well and the configuration under the barrel (most modern Full Frame pistols have a rail for a laser sight or small combat flashlight). Machine Pistols are diferentiated from Submachine Guns in that the MP has a pistol-length barrel and the SMG has a longer (7" - 10"/10cm - 17cm) barrel and most of the selected artwork has shown ammo feed through the grip for MPs and separate magazine well for the SMG. In other words, one's bigger.

Now, all rifles originate from the basic Sport (hunting) Rifle at some point. The Germans created the first "Sturm Gewehr" or Assault Rifle by combining a SMG-style automatic action with a cut-down rifle cartridge. After the war, what the Western allied powers developed were full rifle-caliber (7.62x51) versions of the German weapons. The Russians, in a case of parallel simultaneous evolution, had developed the AK-47 which used a cut-down rifle cartridge (7.62x39). The Battle Rifles were found to be 1) Heavy 2) Functionally uncontrolable in automatic fire and 3) Very difficult to keep supplied with enough ammunition if it had to be humped in by humans on their backs. The Americans eventually developed a specialized round (5.56x45 NATO) and evolved weapons around it which addressed all three issues. Ironically, the Soviets then followed suit and developed the AK-74 which fired a round (5.45x39) which was more similar to the newer, lighter American rounds. (Incidentally, that leaves the old AK-47 as midway between a Battle Rifle and a modern-style Assault Rifle by being both cut-down from rifle power, but firing a full caliber and notoriously inacurate slug.) So the only real difference between the Assault Rifle and the Battle Rifle is the round... and that the base Battle Rifle is much bigger (different frame) than the lighter Assault Rifle. The Sniper Rifle has been since the Vietnam conflict either an acurized Battle Rifle or a rebuilt Sport Rifle. The game assumes the former, but many of the weapons actually shown in SR4X are the later. Carbines, by modern reckoning, are forshortened Assault Rifles. A "carbine" Battle Rifle would be an Assault Rifle chambered for a Battle Rifle cartridge... ok I should add that as a speciffic option because there's an oddball version of the H&K G3 that just came to my mind, and the new LWRC S.A.B.R. I think fits that description as well. OK, easy to add.)

Shotguns are not just large-bore rifles. On the contrary, they have an entirely different set of constraints on their design due to the historically abnormal characteristics of their rounds. Yes, you can have a fully automatic Shotgun, but it's not just a big Assault Rifle or even Battle Rifle. It's bleeding BIG. Combined with the other odd characteristics, it suggests it is deserving of its own classification.

Machine Guns are not built like automatic rifles at all. Battle Rifles and Assault Rifles are designed for short periods of sustained automatic fire, not just limited by ammunition in their clips but by their breech and barrel designs as well. One of my complaints is that Shadowrun et all uses the old British designation system to classify Machine Guns, where it's more role than engineering and design. Since the 1980s, Light Machine Guns have fired Assault Rifle ammunition, Medium Machine Guns have fired Battle Rifle ammunition and Heavy Machine Guns have fired... well, big honking rounds like the .50 BMG. The actual philosophy behind the three is actually different as well, with the LMG not really being designed to handle the kinds of duration of fire in a defensive emplacement, being optimized to provide covering and suppressive fire for teams. MMGs are designed less for portability and much more for use in defensive emplacements or vehicle mountings which call for longer periods of sustained fire. HMGs are like MMGs but written very, very large.

By allowing for all the above general starting points and leaving space for different classes of rounds, you can essentially build any weapon you care to name. The only real exception is going to be something like the Beowulf conversion for AR-15/M-16 series weapons.

Firearm design is a very specialized branch of engineering, and I didn't want people to need to refer to a separate book for details to build a gun. I wanted enough detail to convey the reason different guns were made in different ways while still keeping the basic simple ideas in the system as presented in the core products. Put another way: when new guns come out, I wanted their conversion to this system to be quick and relatively easy.

OK, having explained my reasoning, does my approach make a bit more sense now?

-Kerenshara

[Yerameyahu]

I agree with the concept. SR4 only has about 8 guns, after all. The various models are just tweaked versions of each other, and yes, the tweaks aren't always fair. I like the way they basically erased that in Eclipse Phase.

[Raven the Tricks...]

The more I see, the more I like the concept. It all generally makes sense to me. I'm not quite enough of a gun nut to come up with something like this reasonably, but I'm more than enough of one to use it if it's there.

[Stahlseele]

Oi, good to see you back and posting on stuff that's of interest to you Kerenshara.
And still with that irritating font i see *snickers* ^^

[Tyro]

I don't have the background to understand the work behind it, but I have enough gun knowledge to appreciate that you know what you're talking about and that your system is better for game balance. There's a good chance I might use it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't have the background to understand the work behind it, but I have enough gun knowledge to appreciate that you know what you're talking about and that your system is better for game balance. There's a good chance I might use it.

Not really better for game balance. It is more flavorful for Gun Enthusiasts, but that is really it. Simpler is always better, after all. Though, I do get that the Simple Aspects of Shadowrun 4A are what is in question here. Not everyone likes that. I think the current classifications for Firearms work for what SR4A is trying to emulate.

Good Luck with the project Kerenshara. Always interested in the outcome.

[Tyro]

Not really better for game balance. It is more flavorful for Gun Enthusiasts, but that is really it. Simpler is always better, after all. Though, I do get that the Simple Aspects of Shadowrun 4A are what is in question here. Not everyone likes that. I think the current classifications for Firearms work for what SR4A is trying to emulate.

Good Luck with the project Kerenshara. Always interested in the outcome.

More balanced firearms means you can look beyond Ares Alphas and Praetor E's, though. The idea of an ultimate weapon for all situations is ludicrous. I disagree that simpler is always better.

[Kerenshara]

Oi, good to see you back and posting on stuff that's of interest to you Kerenshara.
And still with that irritating font i see *snickers* ^^

You just noticed I'm back?

You know I use that font just for you, Stahl. Everybody knows you're happiest when you have something to grump about that doesn't actually piss you off. *grin*

-Kerenshara

[Tyro]

You just noticed I'm back?

You know I use that font just for you, Stahl. Everybody knows you're happiest when you have something to grump about that doesn't actually piss you off. *grin*

-Kerenshara

Why DO you use that font, anyway?

[Yerameyahu]

That *is* the reason.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

More balanced firearms means you can look beyond Ares Alphas and Praetor E's, though. The idea of an ultimate weapon for all situations is ludicrous. I disagree that simpler is always better.

Interesting, since I have never used an Ares Alpha or a Praetor for a character. Blows that theory right out of the water I guess.

[Yerameyahu]

Again, Tymeaus, your anecdotal evidence will never be admissible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You *know* that.

On the other hand, I'm partial to a really nice machine pistol, personally, and it depends if an F avail is a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Again, Tymeaus, your anecdotal evidence will never be admissible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You *know* that.

On the other hand, I'm partial to a really nice machine pistol, personally, and it depends if an F avail is a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anecdotal Evidence from YOUR table Yerameyahu? What ever shall we do? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
I see no reason my evidence is any less admissable than yours is... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I have a preference for the FN 5-7C Machine Pistol, the Ares Protector, and the Sernopal vz-88 for Automatics Preferences.
The Savalette Guardian and the Ares Light Fire/Hammerli 620 are my normal Go-To's for Pistols. Though I do like the Ruger Super Warhawk for my Ganger character.

And though the Barrett is Nice, I prefer the HK PSG-1 for my Sniping.

[Yerameyahu]

You do too know why, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) And I wasn't giving any evidence: I said 'personally', not for my characters.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You do too know why, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) And I wasn't giving any evidence: I said 'personally', not for my characters.

Ahhh... Personally. Unfortunately, Personally, I cannot afford the firearms that I would truly like to have. Unfortunately, Family, Food and a Place to Live take precedence.

[Kerenshara]

Odd that you like the FN 5-7C, because I think it gets short shrift. Going with the new rules mentioned above, it switches to Medium Pistol ammo and becomes 4P/-1 with a roughly Heavy Pistol ranges. It's based on a real weapon and while it packs less wallop than a .45 ACP, it penetrates through both sides of a Class III vest from a longer barrel. The Praetor becomes 4P/-2 (Loss of 1 damage, improve AP by 2) - same round. It's not a Gods weapon because it lowers the damage code. It's just slightly more likely to achieve physical (as opposed to stun) damage against light armor.

Tyro: Long story. I actually started out with said font on another size and green writing for a RP element (think: Matrix). The outcry - more over the color actually - had me go back and edit 100+ posts. But I like how it looks. I wasn't an issue last time I was a common poster here (18 months ago+) but now it seems to get more press. I'd consider dropping it but most people don't seem to think it's a problem, no Mods have said drek to me, and the people who DO complain tend to be trolls (with all the attendant "pisses ME off to see them hijack MY threads") so at this point, I'm keeping it as much to torq them off as because I like it. Fair?

-Kerenshara

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Odd that you like the FN 5-7C, because I think it gets short shrift. Going with the new rules mentioned above, it switches to Medium Pistol ammo and becomes 4P/-1 with a roughly Heavy Pistol ranges. It's based on a real weapon and while it packs less wallop than a .45 ACP, it penetrates through both sides of a Class III vest from a longer barrel. The Praetor becomes 4P/-2 (Loss of 1 damage, improve AP by 2) - same round. It's not a Gods weapon because it lowers the damage code. It's just slightly more likely to achieve physical (as opposed to stun) damage against light armor.
-Kerenshara

Yeah, maybe, but adding all that just adds to complexity. I like it simple. It may be more realistic, but I have given up realism in Firearms/Ordnance a long time ago, even if I do still complain about it from time to time.

If I wanted longer ranges from the FN 5-7C, I would just add a longer barrel in modification. Makes it easy. I do not think the Praetor is all that by the base system anyways, so reducing it makes no sense to me, really. I am completely happy with taking a stock weapon, and making it what I want it to be in Modification. At least that way, it is generally playable at any table I might happen to find myself at. House rules tend to cause issues, especially if you play in mutiple games where the house rules could be quite different. This is one of the reasons teh tables I play at minimize house rules. We may throw in an optional rule from time to time, but we frown upon actual House Rules.

Admittedly, though, we are using a house rule for Initiative/Initiaive Pass Resolution. It has its ups and downs, and in general I do not like it, But it works for the intended purpose of the GM.

[Angelone]

Interesting, I'm looking foward to see what you come up with.

I like the Nitama Optima better than the Ares Alpha. My favorite firearm though is the Ceska Black Scorpion.

[CanRay]

I used to swear by the Browning Ultrapower, but the Colt M2066 looks like a nice chunk of gunmetal...

[Faraday]

I have found a new favorite in the ruger warhawk. Makes for a great drone killer. Goes great with a Slivergun, which is another favorite. I tend to go Mannlicher for a longarm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)