Why runners run the shadows and don't steal cars, How to stop chronic car stealers? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Inncubi]

See this, love it, use it. No player who steals cars for extra profit will ever do it again, after this:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/...a-stakeout.html

[CanRay]

There are cars in Winnipeg that have bumper stickers that read "Stealing This Car May Lead To A Severe Beating".

They are not lying.

[ravensoracle]

There are cars in Winnipeg that have bumper stickers that read "Stealing This Car May Lead To A Severe Beating".

They are not lying.

There are cars in the Midwestern US that have stickers that mean more than a severe beating may come your way. I would not recommend stealing a car that has an NRA (National Rifle Association) Sticker on it. You may get a surprise when the owner catches you.

[Warlordtheft]

There are cars in the Midwestern US that have stickers that mean more than a severe beating may come your way. I would not recommend stealing a car that has an NRA (National Rifle Association) Sticker on it. You may get a surprise when the owner catches you.

Reminds me of the time one of the PC's tried stealing a car in the suburbs of DCee. The elf shot him dead with a hunting rifle.

[CanRay]

There are cars in the Midwestern US that have stickers that mean more than a severe beating may come your way. I would not recommend stealing a car that has an NRA (National Rifle Association) Sticker on it. You may get a surprise when the owner catches you.

Mid-Western US is not like the Midwestern-Canada.

Now, if this were Northern Ontario that had the Car Theft Problem...

...

Actually, problem one would be getting the car to start in the first place. Damned Canadian White Trash. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[James McMurray]

Actually, problem one would be getting the car to start in the first place. Damned Canadian White Trash. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

That's not just Canadians. My number two defense against car theft is a dodgy starter. It trails closely behind number one: have a car that looks like it's going to fall apart if you start it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

That's not just Canadians. My number two defense against car theft is a dodgy starter. It trails closely behind number one: have a car that looks like it's going to fall apart if you start it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I thought the best Anti-Theft Device around was a Standard Transmission? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

There are cars in the Midwestern US that have stickers that mean more than a severe beating may come your way. I would not recommend stealing a car that has an NRA (National Rifle Association) Sticker on it. You may get a surprise when the owner catches you.

I live in the US, and I've decided not to investigate certain properties upon seeing a, "Tresspassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" sign on the window.

[James McMurray]

I thought the best Anti-Theft Device around was a Standard Transmission? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

That'd be even better, but then I couldn't drive it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[phlapjack77]

That's not just Canadians. My number two defense against car theft is a dodgy starter. It trails closely behind number one: have a car that looks like it's going to fall apart if you start it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I used to live in a rough neighborhood, and my defense was to leave the windows down, nothing inside. Cars next to mine would get broken into all the time. I was of course also following your number one defense rule too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

One thing I would love to have as a product is something that appeared I think in one of Gibson's novels.

Spray-on rust.

It was really just a can of spray paint that sprayed a rust-looking spatter. You could clean it off later with a special solvent. Great for making your stuff look run down and crappy enough that it's not worth stealing.





-k

[CanRay]

In a different Cyberpunk game, we just used crappy vans that were "Sleepers". Rusted to hell on the outside, custom engine, transmission, and suspension underneath.

We had a special deal going with an importer of Eastern European vehicles. We were so happy customers of his.

[Fortinbras]

I need to make up a car theft table, in which the car could have Lone Star lying in wait, a creepy AI controlling the rig, dodgy starter, possessed by crazed VooDoo spirit, guy tied up in the trunk, etc.

The problem I had was runners renting vehicles and then trying to sell them to chop shops. I ultimately said that burned their fake SIN and the 10% cost of the vehicle in question rarely covered the rental & SIN cost, but I would've liked something deadlier and more creative.
"We don't steal random cars unless we have to because of book keeping" is far less cool than "We don't steal random cars unless we have to because this one time a Go Gang/Free Spirit/Technocritter/Great Evil from the Bowels of Nothingness kicked our butt!"

Also, learn to drive stick. Once you do, you'll wonder why you ever drove anything else.

[KCKitsune]

I thought the best Anti-Theft Device around was a Standard Transmission? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Nothing wrong with standard transmission. A lot more fun to drive than an automatic.

[Faelan]

Standards are great...most of the time, they suck during rush hour.

[The Jopp]

Below is the handy little list from SR4 regarding fencing gear.

Let’s say you steal a car worth around 10K, it’s a common car, cheap, easily available and hard to trace compared to more expensive models – especially if we would use price and availability as a tracking factor for law enforcement.

10 000 Vehicle
-2000 -20% Stolen
-1000 -10% Market Flooded
-2000 -20% Item Used

That’s 4000 for 1 car.

Now, that might sound good for one car but remember that the fence wants to make a profit so let’s say that the base price the runner will get is about half that.

That’s a negotiable price at 2000 for 1 car.

After five of these cars the fence might get a bit tired of becoming a used car salesman.
After 10 of these cars the price drops to 1000 as the runner seems to get the damn things from the Quick-E-Mart.

After 15 cars the law is starting to take notice (Item used in a crime during investigation – closest description I could get).

So we are down to perhaps 500Y for 1 car – on a good day.

Let’s also think about competition apart from the flooded market.

How many other runners or professional car thief’s get the same idea?

Go even further, have someone steal their cars and sell it, im sure the Rigger will be thrilled that the same thing was done to them.

Or even better, make the mistake and steal things from a well backed prime runner team – who gets pissed…

Item counterfeit –20%
Item stolen –20%
Item used –20%
Item used in a crime under investigation –10%
Price war between rival dealers –10%
Market flooded –10%
Distribution channels monopolized +20%
Law Enforcement crackdown on item +50%
Market dry +20%

[The Jopp]

See this, love it, use it. No player who steals cars for extra profit will ever do it again, after this:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/...a-stakeout.html

Some players (and their characters) would love to loot the teams armor and guns while shruggin off the bullets...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Some players (and their characters) would love to loot the teams armor and guns while shruggin off the bullets...

It would likely go the other way, however. These Bozos were under surveillance by the team, they had plenty of time to evaluate their capabilities with Weapons, Armor, and whatever else. Not to mention the surprise factor of having 4 heavily armed special forces types just waiting for you to open that door. Not going to go well for those intruders. In game, there would not even be a surprise roll for the SF Team. They were prepared, and had effectively set up an ambush. The Intruders, on the other hand, would be caught flatfooted and unaware. Sucks to be them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Draco18s]

I used to live in a rough neighborhood, and my defense was to leave the windows down, nothing inside. Cars next to mine would get broken into all the time. I was of course also following your number one defense rule too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's the best defense. Right after leaving the keys on the seat with a "FREE!" sign in the window.

Standards are great...most of the time, they suck during rush hour.

This. I have an automagic now. Mostly due to the "It was a very nice car at a very nice price, but it came in one color and had only one choice of transmission" (ahh, used cars).
But I used to drive a stick. But it was hell in traffic (and I drive in traffic a lot more than I used to).

It would likely go the other way, however. These Bozos were under surveillance by the team, they had plenty of time to evaluate their capabilities with Weapons, Armor, and whatever else. Not to mention the surprise factor of having 4 heavily armed special forces types just waiting for you to open that door. Not going to go well for those intruders. In game, there would not even be a surprise roll for the SF Team. They were prepared, and had effectively set up an ambush. The Intruders, on the other hand, would be caught flatfooted and unaware. Sucks to be them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

To be fair, the SAS weren't trying to bust the car thieves. They were there on an anti-terrorism mission and aborted when the thieves broke into the van.

[Fortinbras]

It's the best defense. Right after leaving the keys on the seat with a "FREE!" sign in the window.

In most bad neighborhoods folks just break the windows out of your car and riffle around for stuff, they rarely want to steal your car, just the stuff inside it. It's very common at Texas Wesleyan. A friend of mine had her car broken into 3 times. The radio was gone after the first time and she never left anything valuable in there, but getting her windows and locks fixed every time was getting ridiculous.
She finally just rolled down her windows and kept the thing unlocked and didn't have a problem for the rest of her tenure. She got the idea from an episode of "Car Talk."

That being said, in most places like downtown Dallas you should always lock your car and keep your valuables out of sight. But in the "Barrens", I've found it to be an effective strategy.

[Bigity]

Car Talk, great show.

In fact, I think there should be a SR version in some of the fluff, except they talk about things like how to get blood and brain matter off of your custom paint jobs or the best way to patch an engine that has had some full auto fire put through it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

To be fair, the SAS weren't trying to bust the car thieves. They were there on an anti-terrorism mission and aborted when the thieves broke into the van.

To be fair, yes, you are right. But in Shadowrun, in that situation, the thieves would be getting a beatdown, if not dead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[sabs]

Shadowrunners do steal cars. But honestly, stealing cars should bring in less than a good run.

Firstly, to steal a car in shadowrun you need:
Hacking, Hardware skills.

Then, the car needs to be run through a RFID eraser, then it needs to have all it's electronics wiped, and double checked. Then comes the hard part.
Prep it for sale:
Selling it in the barrens:
Put a generic pilot in it, sell it for 1/10th the MSRP. It can never go on gridguide.
Selling it to unsuspecting public:
1) You need to reconnect it to the Shiatsu-Ford update system.
2) You need to give it a new identification chip
3) reconnect it to the gridguide
4) place it on a car lot of some kind
5) Profit.

It's easy to steal a car, it's HARD to make money doing it.

[CanRay]

To be fair, yes, you are right. But in Shadowrun, in that situation, the thieves would be getting a beatdown, if not dead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Now I'm picturing a group of gangers trying to get their BTL money by boosting cars and finding a Shadowrunner Team on Surveillance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

As for a Fence feeling like a Used Car Salesman, you need to find a specialist fence if you're going to go through so many cars. They operate out of places called "Chop Shops", you might have heard of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But, yes, if the same crime keeps happening, the prices will drop, and the heat will go up. That's why going around to random nodes and stealing paydata for InfoFences constantly is a bad idea as well. So is extractions of certain experts, spread out who you steal. Same goes for Hijacking Transports of Goods. Again, you do any one thing constantly, things are going to go bad.

Mix it up a bit. Variety is the spice of life.

[James McMurray]

Below is the handy little list from SR4 regarding fencing gear.

Let’s say you steal a car worth around 10K, it’s a common car, cheap, easily available and hard to trace compared to more expensive models – especially if we would use price and availability as a tracking factor for law enforcement.

---snip some numbers---

By RAW selling stuff is 30%, not half, so its even worse than you pictured.

It would likely go the other way, however. These Bozos were under surveillance by the team, they had plenty of time to evaluate their capabilities with Weapons, Armor, and whatever else. Not to mention the surprise factor of having 4 heavily armed special forces types just waiting for you to open that door. Not going to go well for those intruders. In game, there would not even be a surprise roll for the SF Team. They were prepared, and had effectively set up an ambush. The Intruders, on the other hand, would be caught flatfooted and unaware. Sucks to be them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Don't you mean "the sammie and physad in the team beat the SAS members' surprise rolls and kill them all with no defense allowed?

I'm not sure where "In game, there would not even be a surprise roll for the SF Team." comes from, but it's a house rule. Waiting in ambush is +6, not + infinity and the most elaborate of ambush attempts that would spell instant death in the real world fall apart when confronted with SR's rules and a really fast target.

[CanRay]

Don't you mean "the sammie and physad in the team beat the SAS members' surprise rolls and kill them all with no defense allowed?

I'm not sure where "In game, there would not even be a surprise roll for the SF Team." comes from, but it's a house rule. Waiting in ambush is +6, not + infinity and the most elaborate of ambush attempts that would spell instant death in the real world fall apart when confronted with SR's rules and a really fast target.

Really now?

Hm, I highly doubt the SAS would be stock metahumans... And they have access to better cybernetics and clinics than the Street Sammies, and better instructors and magical support than the Gutterpunk Adepts.

[sabs]

That or the SAS Team storms in, and they all point guns at each other and the Street Sam says..

"Harry! When did they make you team leader? I haven't seen you since that stickiwiket* where I got drummed out of the service on those bogus charges."

* Apparently all brits say stickiwicket.

[CanRay]

Contacts: Chose them carefully! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[James McMurray]

Really now?

Hm, I highly doubt the SAS would be stock metahumans... And they have access to better cybernetics and clinics than the Street Sammies, and better instructors and magical support than the Gutterpunk Adepts.

I'm just going by the stats in War! for a special forces soldier. Maybe we just have greatly different PCs in our groups or you build your NPCs well above the baselines in the books. Or maybe SAS is listed there and I missed it (don't have it with me to check).

The physad in the group beats them hands down with around 16 dice for surprise tests. The street sam would be a close to even roll (he's at ~10), but a little ahead if he hears them. That's including the 6 dice for surprise.

Of course, the poor face and mage would be toasted if any of the SAS got a chance to go after them, since they couldn't dodge and are the only viable targets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

The SAS aren't Special Forces. They're what Special Forces want to be when they grow up.

When SAS grow up, they get to be Gurkhas.

When Gurkhas grow up, well, that's one of the signs of the apocalypse.

[James McMurray]

Silly me, reading the internet, seeing the words 'special forces' next to the letters 'SAS' and thinking they were linked. Sorry if I stepped on anyone national/military/historic/whatever sensibilities. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So you're saying the SAS should have what, 3 more dice than special force? 4? More?

[Cheops]

Stealing cars also fucks around with jurisdiction. In bog-standard, high-tech dungeon SR you are normally committing most of your big crimes on corporate turf. Most of the cars you are going to be stealing will be on the streets which are LS/KE territory. This means that instead of being on a corporation's Top 10 Wanted list where they don't have the jurisdiction to arrest you (Ares being the exception) in the streets you are now on the wanted list for LS/KE who do have jurisdiction on the streets. This severely limits your ability to stay out of prison.

Public Awareness is a great stat to use to deter car thieves in SR. Once people start recognizing the thief from wanted posters thanks to high PA modifiers they'll knock that shit off real fast.

Plus as has been pointed out it really doesn't make much money compared to Shadowrunning. Alchemy on the other hand... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Edit to add: Car thieves are also nice high profile arrests to make because many living people have had their cars stolen whereas not many living people have been murdered.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't you mean "the sammie and physad in the team beat the SAS members' surprise rolls and kill them all with no defense allowed?

I'm not sure where "In game, there would not even be a surprise roll for the SF Team." comes from, but it's a house rule. Waiting in ambush is +6, not + infinity and the most elaborate of ambush attempts that would spell instant death in the real world fall apart when confronted with SR's rules and a really fast target.

Nope, I mean the SAS guys would be going while the Street Sam and PhysAd are stunned that there are people ACTUALLY in the Van. That is what surprise means. NO ACTIONS.

You do not need to roll for surprise if the situation dictates, as this one would. Not a house rule, just common sense. The Thieves had no clue someone was in the van, and the SAS guys watched them working the street, watched them come up to the van, and watched them open the doors.

In Shadowrun... Dead Runners...

[James McMurray]

Nope, I mean the SAS guys would be going while the Street Sam and PhysAd are stunned that there are people ACTUALLY in the Van. That is what surprise means. NO ACTIONS.

You do not need to roll for surprise if the situation dictates, as this one would. Not a house rule, just common sense. The Thieves had no clue someone was in the van, and the SAS guys watched them working the street, watched them come up to the van, and watched them open the doors.

In Shadowrun... Dead Runners...

The rulebook disagrees

The surprise rules below apply to all situations, whether all the parties involved are caught off guard or whether one or more parties are intentionally ambushing others.

I'm not saying your rule is bad (heaven knows I'd like to be able to surprise my group sometimes without having to make high reaction badazzes for them to fight). I'm just saying that it's definitely a house rule. Saying that it's not might confuse new people who are still trying to learn the rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The rulebook disagrees


I'm not saying your rule is bad (heaven knows I'd like to be able to surprise my group sometimes without having to make high reaction badazzes for them to fight). I'm just saying that it's definitely a house rule. Saying that it's not might confuse new people who are still trying to learn the rules.

If you are using the Surprise Rule, I woud agree with you. I am not... See the difference. The "Characters" have just set up a situation that is BAD for them, and they will reap the consequences. In comparison, if it was the Runners in the van, and they watched some group of individuals do the same thing. The "Thieves" would be hosed by the PC Runners. You are not FORCED to use the Surprise mechanic for every situation. That is why we have GM's.

[CanRay]

Silly me, reading the internet, seeing the words 'special forces' next to the letters 'SAS' and thinking they were linked. Sorry if I stepped on anyone national/military/historic/whatever sensibilities. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Better cybernetics or higher magic-level adepts. Combat Druids (Remember, England) that are a force to fear. And probably higher than usual Intuition and Reaction as well, due to their training. Possibly a higher rank in Automatics or Longarms depending on the role they have on the team.

*Shrug* Their training is insane. Amongst other things, they always use live ammo (As explained in the OP), and use actual VIPs in scenarios. It would go... Poorly if the Prime Minister of England were to be killed in a "Training Accident". Or a member of the Royal Family.

The Gurkhas wrote their training manual. I will leave it at that.

[James McMurray]

If you are using the Surprise Rule, I woud agree with you. I am not... See the difference. The "Characters" have just set up a situation that is BAD for them, and they will reap the consequences. In comparison, if it was the Runners in the van, and they watched some group of individuals do the same thing. The "Thieves" would be hosed by the PC Runners. You are not FORCED to use the Surprise mechanic for every situation. That is why we have GM's.

The rule says it applies to all situations. If you're not applying it to all situations then you're house ruling it, which is ok.

[James McMurray]

The Gurkhas wrote their training manual. I will leave it at that.

You'll have to leave it at more than that If you want me to know what you're talking about. I've don't know what a gurkha is, other than it's not the dress that Muslim women wear. But it could appear in a limerick with one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Did they invent those tiny pickles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sixgun_Sage]

Small, incredibly scary men, use the khukri, hardest mountain fighters out there, from Nepal. All else is open to interpretation.

[CanRay]

You'll have to leave it at more than that If you want me to know what you're talking about. I've don't know what a gurkha is, other than it's not the dress that Muslim women wear. But it could appear in a limerick with one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Did they invent those tiny pickles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"If a man says he is not afraid of dying, he is either lying or is a Gurkha." - Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw

We just had a big discussion about who and what they are here. If you're one of those types that doesn't like reading, the short version of it is: "Deadliest men ever born".

The Crown of England hires them for his/her personal bodyguard, and has for a long, long time. Remember that "The Sun Never Set On The British Empire" once, there were probably a lot of folks gunning for the Crowns at that time.

[WhiskeyJohnny]

You'll have to leave it at more than that If you want me to know what you're talking about. I've don't know what a gurkha is, other than it's not the dress that Muslim women wear. But it could appear in a limerick with one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Did they invent those tiny pickles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Gurkhas

edit: Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja'd

Basically, a retired Gurkha was on a train. 40+ robbers were on the train. Fewer robbers left the train than got on. Gurkha walked away fine.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The rule says it applies to all situations. If you're not applying it to all situations then you're house ruling it, which is ok.

DO you use a rule for Selecting an available Apartment as well, or do you tell the PC what is available?

[Adarael]

This kind of thing is why I use a gradiated scale for "ambushing" type surprise situations, where +6 is an out and out "waiting for dudes to fuck them up" situation, and +1 is "both parties are surprised but one is in a more awkward position, sort of thing." The current binary +6 or nothing doesn't cut it for me.

For instance, imagine the following situation:
Runner Team A is on a stakeout in a parking garage, waiting to kill a mob boss when he exits the elevator. They are crouched by a Eurocar Westwind 2000, weapons drawn and sighted, ready to unload lead at a split second's notice.
Runner Team B is also attempting to eliminate the mob boss. They are blowing a hole in the floor, one storey up. They have their weapons out, but not sighted, because they're gonna fall with a giant slab of concrete onto the next floor.
Runner Team C is guarding the mob boss. They know people are out to get them, and are aware that the parking garage is where people will likely kill them. They do not have their weapons out, though, because they are leaving a nice restaurant.
The Mob Boss is oblivious, and feels cocky as hell.

The elevator dings and the doors slide open. Runner Team A is about to unload hell as a C12 blast goes off one floor up and Runner Team B drops down onto the floor.
Here's what I'd do for the surprise test.
Runner Team A gets a +6 to their surprise test roll, because they are ambushing and ready to fuck anyone up. They have a superior position to everyone else in the area.
Runner Team B probably gets a +3 or +4 to their roll. They're ambushing, but they don't have as clear an idea of what's going on around them. Nevertheless, they've made a pretty surprising entrance - it's just that Runner Team A is better set up than them.
Runner Team C gets a +1 or maybe a +2 if I feel nice, because they KNEW shit might go down once those doors opened, and they're definitely on edge, thinking they might get fucked up. That said, though, wouldn't you be surprised by SUDDENLY GUNFIRE and OMG CONCRETE BLOCK ATTACK?
Mob boss gets dick all, because he was utterly unprepared for it.

I had to come up with this system because of situations where players had said, "Okay, I take my gun out, and I'mr eady for anything. SOMEBODY is probably in that car across the street!" and then they got ambushed by someone behind them - they were prepared for an ambush, but not neccessarily 100%.

[James McMurray]

DO you use a rule for Selecting an available Apartment as well, or do you tell the PC what is available?

Immaterial, as AFAIK there is no such rule. If there were, I'd either use it or house rule it just like any other rule.

I assume the question's absurdity means it was a Socratic attempt to make a point or get me to discover something. If so, care to elucidate?

[James McMurray]

Re: gurkhas

I guess the lesson is ,if you see a gurkha in a berka giving a blow job to a gherkin don't call him a sissy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

I guess the lesson is ,if you see a gurkha in a berka giving a blow job to a gherkin don't call him a sissy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There's better ways to commit suicide.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Immaterial, as AFAIK there is no such rule. If there were, I'd either use it or house rule it just like any other rule.

I assume the question's absurdity means it was a Socratic attempt to make a point or get me to discover something. If so, care to elucidate?

Point is - The GM sets up the scenario. If he determines that the PC's (or NPC's) are surprised for some reason, No rules apply. That is the scenario. It is not a House rule to do so. It amazes me how many people think that that constitutes a House Rule, or that it breaks some established set of rules. It is a SCENARIO.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Mäx]

Don't you mean "the sammie and physad in the team beat the SAS members' surprise rolls and kill them all with no defense allowed?

I quess you missed this little tidbit from the Ambush rules
"Note that it is possible that the character(s) performing the
ambush may get a lower Initiative Score than their targets. If a target
is surprised, this doesn’t matter."

[Irion]

@Adarael
And I would give Runner Team C the upper hand, because A and B are getting in each others way. Runner team A wants to unleash hell on the mobster, but they unleash hell on Runner tream B. Runner team B wants to flatten the Mobster but they are caught in crossfire from the start.
The only team getting what it is expecting es Team C.

[James McMurray]

I quess you missed this little tidbit from the Ambush rules
"Note that it is possible that the character(s) performing the
ambush may get a lower Initiative Score than their targets. If a target
is surprised, this doesn’t matter."

What does that have to do with my post? I'm talking about surprise rolls, which determine who you can and can't attack, not initiative which determines when you attack them.

[James McMurray]

Point is - The GM sets up the scenario. If he determines that the PC's (or NPC's) are surprised for some reason, No rules apply. That is the scenario. It is not a House rule to do so. It amazes me how many people think that that constitutes a House Rule, or that it breaks some established set of rules. It is a SCENARIO.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. When I see a rule that flat out states that it applies to all situations and then see someone not applying it to all situations, that's a house rule IMO.

And again, if it works for your group, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. When I see a rule that flat out states that it applies to all situations and then see someone not applying it to all situations, that's a house rule IMO.

And again, if it works for your group, there's nothing wrong with that.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What does that have to do with my post? I'm talking about surprise rolls, which determine who you can and can't attack, not initiative which determines when you attack them.

No suprise rolls were required...(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And we agree to disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[James McMurray]

No suprise rolls were required...(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mäx didn't mention he used the same house rule as you, so I had to ask.

[Mäx]

Okey disregard my previous comment, i miss understood a part on the surprise rules, but i do have to comment on your base reason for your assumption of your PC:s winning on suprise.

The physad in the group beats them hands down with around 16 dice for surprise tests. The street sam would be a close to even roll (he's at ~10), but a little ahead if he hears them. That's including the 6 dice for surprise.

A special force member has 18 dice for that surprise test, but for SAS operative i would if, i was GM, use the stats for lietenant(if i didn't build them as a invidual NPC:s) so that would be 20 dice for suprise test.

[Adarael]

@Adarael
And I would give Runner Team C the upper hand, because A and B are getting in each others way. Runner team A wants to unleash hell on the mobster, but they unleash hell on Runner tream B. Runner team B wants to flatten the Mobster but they are caught in crossfire from the start.
The only team getting what it is expecting es Team C.

Yeah, but not knowing where or how it would happen should hinder their response. Team A should be fine - let's say for the sake of argument they're all using emplaced HMGs or auto grenade launches, or other similarly overpowered weaponry so that firing though Team B is physically not going to be a problem.

Team C figures something might go down, but that shouldn't give them carte blanche to have +6 on all surprise tests. For instance, if there was Runner Team D, rendered invisible and silent by magic, crouching on the top of the elevator, and who decides to shoot one of the Team C members in the top of the head... well, Team C shouldn't get a +6 to their surprise roll because they had no idea from what direction that attack would be coming, and their assumption was that it would be coming from the direction of the elevator doors.

Edit: If I had an SAS team statted up, just for the record, I would have to gauge their stats, ware, and skills relative to what would be appropriate. But I honestly can't imagine an SAS member not having anything less than exceptionally high stats and skills for purposes of speed, surprise, and fuck-you-upitude, no matter how they've been statted in the books. I imagine Agility 6-8, Intuition 5, Reaction 6-8, and decent ware, since these are the things most runner street sams start with.

[James McMurray]

Okey disregard my previous comment, i miss understood a part on the surprise rules, but i do have to comment on your base reason for your assumption of your PC:s winning on suprise.

A special force member has 18 dice for that surprise test, but for SAS operative i would if, i was GM, use the stats for lietenant(if i didn't build them as a invidual NPC:s) so that would be 20 dice for suprise test.

Oops, I forgot to factor in Intuition on both sides. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In that case your numbers are right for Special Forces, and the two PCs in question would have about 14 and 20 dice respectively. So our cybered guy is unlikely to go first, but the physad still has a good chance at it thanks to combat sense, especially if his enhanced senses tip him off that there's someone inside the van so he gets another +3.

[Bearclaw]

There are cars in the Midwestern US that have stickers that mean more than a severe beating may come your way. I would not recommend stealing a car that has an NRA (National Rifle Association) Sticker on it. You may get a surprise when the owner catches you.

On the other hand, if you'd like a car and a gun, the one with the NRA sticker is the best target.

[Wounded Ronin]

On the other hand, if you'd like a car and a gun, the one with the NRA sticker is the best target.

That's the reason I don't put NRA stickers on anything I own. Hell, my AR even has a Peace Corps logo on it!

[CanRay]

That's the reason I don't put NRA stickers on anything I own. Hell, my AR even has a Peace Corps logo on it!

Does it have "Born To Kill" on the other side? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

Does it have "Born To Kill" on the other side? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Unfortunately, no. Del Ton only let you do laser etching on one side. That would be incredibly awesome, though. I will have to see if it is possible to get that laser etched on the other side.

Picture: http://i52.tinypic.com/scb804.jpg

Original thread, on another forum: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=102158

[Hagga]

An organised car theft ring gets attention from law enforcement and the organised crime groups. Failing that, just up the rewards (and make things a tad more expensive).

Perhaps I'm lucky, but they often do something that leads Lone Star onto them. Say they want to steal a car as a get away, post job, and ditch their present ride. That's fine. Half the time they'll cause an accident en route. Either way, they've lost one car.

[ravensoracle]

I wish I could find a copy on the net of the pic hanging up at the local Game Warden's office. A group of thieves tried to steal the truck and what they thought were guns in their cases from a deer camp out on someone's hunting land. The hunter's came back to camp in time stop the would be thieves and since the idiots put up a fight and the hunters didn't want them to struggle any more the group of three thieves were strung up like a deer about to be gutted. The hunter's took trophy pictures of their catch.

[longbowrocks]

If you are using the Surprise Rule, I woud agree with you. I am not... See the difference. The "Characters" have just set up a situation that is BAD for them, and they will reap the consequences. In comparison, if it was the Runners in the van, and they watched some group of individuals do the same thing. The "Thieves" would be hosed by the PC Runners. You are not FORCED to use the Surprise mechanic for every situation. That is why we have GM's.

Of course you aren't forced to. You're the GM. However, it's still a GM house ruling. Otherwise the "waiting in ambush" modifier is just there to look pretty.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Of course you aren't forced to. You're the GM. However, it's still a GM house ruling. Otherwise the "waiting in ambush" modifier is just there to look pretty.

The waiting in Ambush modifier is for situations where the GM deems that the opposition has a chance to notice the ambush prior to encountering it. I do not deem this situation, as described, as one of those cases. Some situations just do not need rolls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[The Jopp]

Let us not forget a very good deterrent to grand theft auto:

The application of explosives.

Sooner or later someone is gonna get pissed and seed the town with cars that explodes whenever someone tries to break into them.

[CanRay]

A Mr. Johnson with too big a budget and a really big chip on his shoulder.

Or one that needs to make it look like Terrorists are in the city. (Hey, it's a good set of Shadowruns to set up during an election year!).

[Bira]

Isn't it a little silly that people here are discussing ways of making breaking into ultra-secure facilities a more attractive activity than stealing cars off the street? I'll admit I only skimmed the later posts, but it seems like some GMs think sending a miraculously invincible special forces squad after PCs who steal a car or ten an appropriate response.

It's not. They'd get some opposition from the police, of course, but no more than any other car thief gets, and definitely no more than they'd get for doing the sort of work a shadowrun usually entails. They might also get some opposition from the gangs and/or crime syndicates they're competing with. That's more worrying, because they'd shoot to kill and probably would be able to find the PCs more easily than the cops, but it's still well below the threat level people have been throwing around the thread.

You might as well just admit you're punishing your players for deviating from your script when you start making "out-of-plot" criminal activities harder than actual shadowrunning. There are much better ways to make sure your players are engaged with the game.

[sabs]

stealing cars should be easier.
Stealing cars in a way to make a profit, a living, and more money than you make shadowrunning should be difficult.

[Inncubi]

Bira:

The discussion comes from other posts, a Dumpshock meme if you want. A long time ago, in a thread far, far away, someone pointed that hacking cars was so easy, players could dump shadowrunning and steal cars for infinite money. The fact that official missions pay so little, and by fencing the cars you can have more money made it into a discussion where Game masters had to pay more than that or their players would just turn into other less risky and more profitable career choices, namely car stealing.

There has been too much ink spilled in the matter, my link was simply a joke into it, because, let's face it, the surprise element in it is hilarious.

Edit: Spelling

[CanRay]

THEY CAN HAVE MY FORD AMERICAR WHEN THEY PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!

And even then they won't have it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

(Links NSFW!)

[Semerkhet]

Also:

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2011/0...ndomness-36.jpg

[Bira]

stealing cars should be easier.
Stealing cars in a way to make a profit, a living, and more money than you make shadowrunning should be difficult.

Then shadowrunning should pay more, shouldn't it? It seems like shadowrunners get paid basically peanuts for going into incredibly dangerous (even action-movie like) situations. If they decide to walk away and steal cars or make orichalcum instead, they're just being rational.

Or maybe, just maybe, the campaign should be about more than money (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

[Draco18s]

THEY CAN HAVE MY FORD AMERICAR WHEN THEY PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!

And even then they won't have it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

(Links NSFW!)

I like the CO-4U one, along with the micro-wire spinning mace of death. Both leave the car intact with easy cleanup.