Metabolism of a Vampire, Does Kissing make you puke? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Hamsnibit]

So, my Rigger turned unvoluntarily into a banshee the last session and i decided to read through the books again closesly.
As we know, Banshees have their Dietary Requirement (Metahuman Blood) weakness because the virus reconfigures their digestive system and general physiology, so far so good.

Question is : how far does it go?
Runners Companion states :"vampires and banshees in particular lack most of the symbiotic bacteria that break down food and must subsist entirely on blood."

As a non native english speaker i interprete "food" as anything you have to chew and swallow not included anything you drink. Soups come somewhere in between.

Banshees have to throw up within an hour if they consume any food which isnt blood says the description of the Dietary Requirement Weakness.

So i have two question from this point on:
1. The body of banshees still mainly consists of water : the blood circulates within their veins, they sweat and produce saliva as well as more intimate fluids.
Is the water in their bodies magically created from the blood they consume (which has to be since the amounts are way to small) or do they still have to drink since the text explicitly states food?
2. Which amounts of fluids is enough to make them throw up, IF they cant consume water as well? Are aromas from a chewing gum enough? Is tongue kissing forbidden? Or is it only too much if you drink an entire bottle/cup or whatever of coffee, coke, tea or something?

Banshees are especially prone to alcohol which indicates that drinking isnt really possible anymore, but then still my question stands how much is too much i really have no idea.

My thanks in advance for any good ideas

[Patrick Goodman]

Oh, great, something else to add to my list of things to do in my copious unstructured free time.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No, kissing does not make you throw up. I'll deal with the rest later.

[Paul]

I'd say all of this goes to how you view Vampires. In some literature they are seen as well and truly dead-no circulatory system; no sweating-nothing. However I can't recall off hand if Shadowrun ever committed to an official answer on this.

[Patrick Goodman]

However I can't recall off hand if Shadowrun ever committed to an official answer on this.

They're not. They're genetically mutated freaks, but they aren't dead.

[Irion]

Depends on your definition for alive...

[Mercer]

I've never really thought about it, but it does make sense that the HMHVV would still require water, although just limiting them to the dietary requirement wouldn't offend me either. (I haven't played in a lot of games where dehydration was a threat, although I did run an Africa campaign.)

I guess it depends on how much the virus alters the body (and so may vary among the different expressions). Vampires will vomit up food because their body doesn't use it for anything; it's basically foreign matter. If their bodies still process water, then I'd say that things that were mostly water would be okay. If they drank some soup they'd probably process the water and throw up the carrots. The caffeine and sugar in most drinks might just make the vampire nauseous. it's worth noting that since the vampire seems to only draw nutrients from its dietary requirements, anything else they're consuming isn't doing much-- it'd be like me stirring wood pulp into a cup of hot water and drinking it.

There was a skill in White Wolf called Carousing. Since vamps couldn't eat or drink, looking like you could eat or drink or being able to tolerate holding down food was a good way to pass for human. Maybe a BOD or WILL test to keep food or alcohol down (each success being a minute or ten minutes or something like that) would help a runner vamp pass for the uninfected.

Shadowrun has always been pretty careful about not calling vamps undead, although one of the sourcebooks for SR3 (Smuggler's Havens? Something with New Orleans) mentions that it's a derogatory slang term for the infected. In my games I've had vamps who've played up the "immortal/creature of the night" aspect of things, but ultimately they're metahumans with a virus.

[Yerameyahu]

It seems impossible (unworkable) that they can't drink water (or, for that matter, don't need to). You're definitely worrying about something silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'd certainly agree with people who say sugar, caffeine, alcohol, etc. in that water would make them sick (feel or be), but the SR4 rules have never been that detailed. After all, drugs and toxins basically work the same on everything: humans, lizards, … vehicles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I would take the rules, therefore, as referring only to things we'd typically consider food.

[Irion]

I actually see no way in passing as uninfected with all the sensors in SR.
I means SR is nearly as bad in this instance as StarTrek. (The setting where even Heisenberg had to go...)
Well, all right. They are not able to get a complete health check up from a few hundred miles away, yet.

But alone the thermal image should probably be a give away.
But it does not end there.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

why should the thermal image be different? i can't recall reading that sr vampires have a different body temperature than non-infected humans ^^

[Jhaiisiin]

Agreed. SR infected are *not* dead, and thus have the same thermal image as anyone else. Nothing I've seen in Running Wild suggests different. (I'm re-reading it now to double check myself)

[Sengir]

Nothing I've seen in Running Wild suggests different. (I'm re-reading it now to double check myself)

Well, given that some Infected have totally different metabolisms (think Regeneration) it wouldn't be totally unreasonable if their body temperature was different from the standard human. Not corpse-like, just off by a degree or two.
But I agree with you that nothing like that is spelled out in RAW.

[Error]

One way or another, this thread certainly is interesting food for thought. While I've always peripherally aware that the Infected aren't standard mythological variants of vampires, werewolves, etc...its often pretty difficult to keep the mythological basis from creeping back into my perceptions of the HMHVV expressions. Since this thread really has me thinking about it, let me see what my unbiased opinion on the subject is.

-On Metabolism/Body Temperature: I'd have to go with a mixture of some of the other posts here. While none of the rules state that the Infected have a differing body temperature, I would imagine that there would be measurable differences in the biometrics of one of them. I'd say it would be a GM judgement call, but I would lean towards the more extreme expressions of HMHVV likely having a greater variance from baseline metahuman biometrics that the less severe forms.

-On Liquids: It seems to me that there would be very little reason to specifically mention that alcohol causes nausea in a Banshee if they can't ingest other water-based fluids. Alcohol is probably mentioned as a weakness due to alcohol's blood thinning properties. I could certainly see something like that making a vampire or banshee feel a bit funky.

I'll look a bit more closely at the rest of the thread and see if any other thoughts come to me.

[Hamsnibit]

Well, given that some Infected have totally different metabolisms (think Regeneration) it wouldn't be totally unreasonable if their body temperature was different from the standard human. Not corpse-like, just off by a degree or two.
But I agree with you that nothing like that is spelled out in RAW.

Regeneration is a paranormal power, what i wanted to clear is the mundane physiology of vampires/banshees.
Theorhtically their could cut off their arms to feed on their own blood (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
but thats another story ...

And yes physically spoken - the infected are just genetically reconfigured metahumans they keep their auras and have their essence so they are pretty much alive. Runners Companion states that vampires (p.81) "his skin becomes paler, and
their breathing and heartbeat shallower and slower" which indicates to me, that they really have some kind of metabolism still going.

The only thing which is really "undead" in SR are cyberzombies, if you want but these guys still have their auras magically bound to their dead bodies.
Their flesh rots and decay because their metabolism has stopped and no immune system protects them from all those germs which cause the decaying proccess.

Oh and another argument came to my mind that infecteds are very well still (at least halfway) metahumans : they can be targeted with spells e.g. Slay, Slaughter and One less etc. so they are magically proofed still metahumans (RC p.77)

[Mercer]

I've always considered the HMHVV'ers to run a little colder than a normal metahuman; not corpse cold, but a few degrees below the norm and probably in the hypothermic range. It's not a big deal, but my assumption is the virus shuts down or slows down a lot of the body's autonomic functions (digestion, heart rate, breathing, circulation and so on). This leads to clammy, pale skin, shallow breathing and a lower body temp, as well as being a rationale as to why vampires of legend were mistaken for corpses.

I've also treated it as the longer some has been infected, the more pronounced these effects are. And essence and blood consumption is a factor as well; a fully fed vampire has a more flushed and "alive" appearance than a hungry one. A lot of this is fluff, there's no real mechanical component.

While I've always peripherally aware that the Infected aren't standard mythological variants of vampires, werewolves, etc...its often pretty difficult to keep the mythological basis from creeping back into my perceptions of the HMHVV expressions.

This can work in your favor, since in the game world the mythology is based on the disease. I've always enjoyed how SR blurs that line.

[snowRaven]

Runner's Companion states that Banshees are hemovores just like Vampires.
SR4A states that Vampires get sick within the hour when consuming anything but blood, and that consuming alcohol gives them the Nausea game-effect, so it seems to suggest that they cannot drink anything but blood.

Personally I liked it better in earlier editions, when Banshees drained Essence by scaring and hunting down their terrified victims. It made them distinctly different from Vampires, whereas now they are just vampires that look like elves...

...well, at least they don't sparkle.

[Patrick Goodman]

Personally I liked it better in earlier editions, when Banshees drained Essence by scaring and hunting down their terrified victims. It made them distinctly different from Vampires, whereas now they are just vampires that look like elves...

I did, too. I'm not sure if I can fix that. I'll see what I can do, though.

[Yerameyahu]

I just want to put in that, AFAIK, cyberzombies are not actually 'dead' flesh, nor are they rotting. They're just dysfunctional: cancer, etc. They're 'trying' to die, but that's what all the magic *and* medicine is for.

[JanessaVR]

I confess I haven't given their condition this much thought. Then again, I'd promply suicide any character of mine that got Infected during the course of play as I consider the HMHVV Infected to be vermin that should be exterminated posthaste (especially those disgusting ghouls), and not viable as a PC "race" choice - but that's me.

The new ridiculously politically-correct treatment of them in SR4 annoys me to no end - they're monsters, not people. Hunt them down with fire and acid spells and wipe them from the face of the earth - it's a great public service for the whole world.

[Yerameyahu]

Ditto (ish :o ), but whatever's fun for them.

[CanRay]

The new ridiculously politically-correct treatment of them in SR4 annoys me to no end - they're monsters, not people. Hunt them down with fire and acid spells and wipe them from the face of the earth - it's a great public service for the whole world.

You know, that has me asking a question...

Who *IS* behind the PC "Ghouls Are People Too" propaganda? Who would profit from that? Seriously?

Things are not as obvious as they seem all the time...

[JanessaVR]

You know, that has me asking a question...

Who *IS* behind the PC "Ghouls Are People Too" propaganda? Who would profit from that? Seriously?

Things are not as obvious as they seem all the time...

Well, the quick answer is "the developers." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Why is another question, of course.

In game...that's a darn good question. Evo and Horizon have a sufficiently feel-good-stupid-hippie vibe to be able to rationalize such self-destructive thinking, but I'm trying and failing to think of any other major entity that has anything to gain by such a stance.

[CanRay]

Evo, less likely. Too ingrained, they're Transhuman, and HMHVV isn't the "Next Step In Evolution". Horizon, maybe, but to what goal? Not much profit, too small an audience.

I'm thinking we might have to ask Martin what he thinks... Even if it does mean a trip into a Plan 9-esque room full of clippings and coloured string...

I'm not asking Plan 9. That's too out there even for ME. And that's saying something, folks.

[Mercer]

I confess I haven't given their condition this much thought. Then again, I'd promply suicide any character of mine that got Infected during the course of play as I consider the HMHVV Infected to be vermin that should be exterminated posthaste (especially those disgusting ghouls), and not viable as a PC "race" choice - but that's me.

The new ridiculously politically-correct treatment of them in SR4 annoys me to no end - they're monsters, not people. Hunt them down with fire and acid spells and wipe them from the face of the earth - it's a great public service for the whole world.

It's not new to SR4, but it may be more in the forefront nowadays. "Monsters are people too," (as well as "people are monsters") has been in the game since SR1.

[hobgoblin]

I suspect only holding something in their mouth will not cause a vomit. Hitting the stomach however. And i suspect the larger amount, the more immediate the reaction.

Thinking about it, it may well be that the virus takes over the job of the mitochondria. And by doing so, changing the way the cells are powered (likely cause of the essence loss). This would also sharply reduce the need for oxygen and such, if i am reading the wikipedia article right.

[Sengir]

Personally I liked it better in earlier editions, when Banshees drained Essence by scaring and hunting down their terrified victims.

Uhmm, they still do that. Matter of fact, the fluff text in RW is a 1:1 copy from Critters...