So, my Rigger turned unvoluntarily into a banshee the last session and i decided to read through the books again closesly.
As we know, Banshees have their Dietary Requirement (Metahuman Blood) weakness because the virus reconfigures their digestive system and general physiology, so far so good.

Question is : how far does it go?
Runners Companion states :"vampires and banshees in particular lack most of the symbiotic bacteria that break down food and must subsist entirely on blood."

As a non native english speaker i interprete "food" as anything you have to chew and swallow not included anything you drink. Soups come somewhere in between.

Banshees have to throw up within an hour if they consume any food which isnt blood says the description of the Dietary Requirement Weakness.

So i have two question from this point on:
1. The body of banshees still mainly consists of water : the blood circulates within their veins, they sweat and produce saliva as well as more intimate fluids.
Is the water in their bodies magically created from the blood they consume (which has to be since the amounts are way to small) or do they still have to drink since the text explicitly states food?
2. Which amounts of fluids is enough to make them throw up, IF they cant consume water as well? Are aromas from a chewing gum enough? Is tongue kissing forbidden? Or is it only too much if you drink an entire bottle/cup or whatever of coffee, coke, tea or something?

Banshees are especially prone to alcohol which indicates that drinking isnt really possible anymore, but then still my question stands how much is too much i really have no idea.

My thanks in advance for any good ideas

Oh, great, something else to add to my list of things to do in my copious unstructured free time....

No, kissing does not make you throw up. I'll deal with the rest later.

I'd say all of this goes to how you view Vampires. In some literature they are seen as well and truly dead-no circulatory system; no sweating-nothing. However I can't recall off hand if Shadowrun ever committed to an official answer on this.

They're not. They're genetically mutated freaks, but they aren't dead.

Depends on your definition for alive...

I've never really thought about it, but it does make sense that the HMHVV would still require water, although just limiting them to the dietary requirement wouldn't offend me either. (I haven't played in a lot of games where dehydration was a threat, although I did run an Africa campaign.)

I guess it depends on how much the virus alters the body (and so may vary among the different expressions). Vampires will vomit up food because their body doesn't use it for anything; it's basically foreign matter. If their bodies still process water, then I'd say that things that were mostly water would be okay. If they drank some soup they'd probably process the water and throw up the carrots. The caffeine and sugar in most drinks might just make the vampire nauseous. it's worth noting that since the vampire seems to only draw nutrients from its dietary requirements, anything else they're consuming isn't doing much-- it'd be like me stirring wood pulp into a cup of hot water and drinking it.

There was a skill in White Wolf called Carousing. Since vamps couldn't eat or drink, looking like you could eat or drink or being able to tolerate holding down food was a good way to pass for human. Maybe a BOD or WILL test to keep food or alcohol down (each success being a minute or ten minutes or something like that) would help a runner vamp pass for the uninfected.

Shadowrun has always been pretty careful about not calling vamps undead, although one of the sourcebooks for SR3 (Smuggler's Havens? Something with New Orleans) mentions that it's a derogatory slang term for the infected. In my games I've had vamps who've played up the "immortal/creature of the night" aspect of things, but ultimately they're metahumans with a virus.

It seems impossible (unworkable) that they can't drink water (or, for that matter, don't need to). You're definitely worrying about something silly.

I'd certainly agree with people who say sugar, caffeine, alcohol, etc. in that water would make them sick (feel or be), but the SR4 rules have never been that detailed. After all, drugs and toxins basically work the same on everything: humans, lizards, … vehicles. I would take the rules, therefore, as referring only to things we'd typically consider food.

I actually see no way in passing as uninfected with all the sensors in SR.
I means SR is nearly as bad in this instance as StarTrek. (The setting where even Heisenberg had to go...)
Well, all right. They are not able to get a complete health check up from a few hundred miles away, yet.

But alone the thermal image should probably be a give away.
But it does not end there.

why should the thermal image be different? i can't recall reading that sr vampires have a different body temperature than non-infected humans ^^

Agreed. SR infected are *not* dead, and thus have the same thermal image as anyone else. Nothing I've seen in Running Wild suggests different. (I'm re-reading it now to double check myself)

Well, given that some Infected have totally different metabolisms (think Regeneration) it wouldn't be totally unreasonable if their body temperature was different from the standard human. Not corpse-like, just off by a degree or two.
But I agree with you that nothing like that is spelled out in RAW.

One way or another, this thread certainly is interesting food for thought. While I've always peripherally aware that the Infected aren't standard mythological variants of vampires, werewolves, etc...its often pretty difficult to keep the mythological basis from creeping back into my perceptions of the HMHVV expressions. Since this thread really has me thinking about it, let me see what my unbiased opinion on the subject is.

-On Metabolism/Body Temperature: I'd have to go with a mixture of some of the other posts here. While none of the rules state that the Infected have a differing body temperature, I would imagine that there would be measurable differences in the biometrics of one of them. I'd say it would be a GM judgement call, but I would lean towards the more extreme expressions of HMHVV likely having a greater variance from baseline metahuman biometrics that the less severe forms.

-On Liquids: It seems to me that there would be very little reason to specifically mention that alcohol causes nausea in a Banshee if they can't ingest other water-based fluids. Alcohol is probably mentioned as a weakness due to alcohol's blood thinning properties. I could certainly see something like that making a vampire or banshee feel a bit funky.

I'll look a bit more closely at the rest of the thread and see if any other thoughts come to me.

Regeneration is a paranormal power, what i wanted to clear is the mundane physiology of vampires/banshees.
Theorhtically their could cut off their arms to feed on their own blood
but thats another story ...

And yes physically spoken - the infected are just genetically reconfigured metahumans they keep their auras and have their essence so they are pretty much alive. Runners Companion states that vampires (p.81) "his skin becomes paler, and
their breathing and heartbeat shallower and slower" which indicates to me, that they really have some kind of metabolism still going.

The only thing which is really "undead" in SR are cyberzombies, if you want but these guys still have their auras magically bound to their dead bodies.
Their flesh rots and decay because their metabolism has stopped and no immune system protects them from all those germs which cause the decaying proccess.

Oh and another argument came to my mind that infecteds are very well still (at least halfway) metahumans : they can be targeted with spells e.g. Slay, Slaughter and One less etc. so they are magically proofed still metahumans (RC p.77)

I've always considered the HMHVV'ers to run a little colder than a normal metahuman; not corpse cold, but a few degrees below the norm and probably in the hypothermic range. It's not a big deal, but my assumption is the virus shuts down or slows down a lot of the body's autonomic functions (digestion, heart rate, breathing, circulation and so on). This leads to clammy, pale skin, shallow breathing and a lower body temp, as well as being a rationale as to why vampires of legend were mistaken for corpses.

I've also treated it as the longer some has been infected, the more pronounced these effects are. And essence and blood consumption is a factor as well; a fully fed vampire has a more flushed and "alive" appearance than a hungry one. A lot of this is fluff, there's no real mechanical component.


This can work in your favor, since in the game world the mythology is based on the disease. I've always enjoyed how SR blurs that line.

Runner's Companion states that Banshees are hemovores just like Vampires.
SR4A states that Vampires get sick within the hour when consuming anything but blood, and that consuming alcohol gives them the Nausea game-effect, so it seems to suggest that they cannot drink anything but blood.

Personally I liked it better in earlier editions, when Banshees drained Essence by scaring and hunting down their terrified victims. It made them distinctly different from Vampires, whereas now they are just vampires that look like elves...

...well, at least they don't sparkle.

I did, too. I'm not sure if I can fix that. I'll see what I can do, though.

I just want to put in that, AFAIK, cyberzombies are not actually 'dead' flesh, nor are they rotting. They're just dysfunctional: cancer, etc. They're 'trying' to die, but that's what all the magic *and* medicine is for.

I confess I haven't given their condition this much thought. Then again, I'd promply suicide any character of mine that got Infected during the course of play as I consider the HMHVV Infected to be vermin that should be exterminated posthaste (especially those disgusting ghouls), and not viable as a PC "race" choice - but that's me.

The new ridiculously politically-correct treatment of them in SR4 annoys me to no end - they're monsters, not people. Hunt them down with fire and acid spells and wipe them from the face of the earth - it's a great public service for the whole world.

Ditto (ish :o ), but whatever's fun for them.

You know, that has me asking a question...

Who *IS* behind the PC "Ghouls Are People Too" propaganda? Who would profit from that? Seriously?

Things are not as obvious as they seem all the time...

Well, the quick answer is "the developers." Why is another question, of course.

In game...that's a darn good question. Evo and Horizon have a sufficiently feel-good-stupid-hippie vibe to be able to rationalize such self-destructive thinking, but I'm trying and failing to think of any other major entity that has anything to gain by such a stance.

Evo, less likely. Too ingrained, they're Transhuman, and HMHVV isn't the "Next Step In Evolution". Horizon, maybe, but to what goal? Not much profit, too small an audience.

I'm thinking we might have to ask Martin what he thinks... Even if it does mean a trip into a Plan 9-esque room full of clippings and coloured string...

I'm not asking Plan 9. That's too out there even for ME. And that's saying something, folks.

It's not new to SR4, but it may be more in the forefront nowadays. "Monsters are people too," (as well as "people are monsters") has been in the game since SR1.

I suspect only holding something in their mouth will not cause a vomit. Hitting the stomach however. And i suspect the larger amount, the more immediate the reaction.

Thinking about it, it may well be that the virus takes over the job of the mitochondria. And by doing so, changing the way the cells are powered (likely cause of the essence loss). This would also sharply reduce the need for oxygen and such, if i am reading the wikipedia article right.

Uhmm, they still do that. Matter of fact, the fluff text in RW is a 1:1 copy from Critters...

Yeah, I'd meant to tweak that aittle bit, but it (and time) got past me.

However, until RC, they had no Dietary Requirement. Throw that into the mix, and his objection to "vampires that look like elves" makes a bit more sense.

Now this is a topic I can get behind!

Can banshees swallow when giving blowjobs without becoming sick? Are they allergic to lactating MILFs?

One thing which i really like about shadorun is that they took actual myths, legends and fairy tales and put them into a "realistic" (means following an internal logic) setting where things still obey their respective natural laws and magic is still bound to its own strange rules, expressions and drawbacks. For every conscient manipulation of mana there will be a natural counterreaction (known as drain) and thats why you cant just pop your magetower into the landscape. Magic and technology exist side by side - the matrix is a coherent world in its own, the meatspace is and so is the manaspace.
What i was going to say is : there are the myths (soul sucking, mindless bloodthirsty vampires hunting people in D and Z-Zones like feral predators (welcome to my corp world) and the (shadowrun) world of facts.

Vampires do not suffer mental drawbacks during their transformation and so they are fully aware of their condition and their actions.
The question which shadowrun raises is: people turn into something they dont fully understand, misinformed, misunderstood and not exactly knowing their new needs they wake up in a dark corner of a backalley, overwhelmed by a terrible thirst which drives them to the brink of madness (ever seen REALLY hungry/thirsty people? they do anything they have to) you know you have to kill or at least damage people irreparably in order to survive.

Image yourself this:
The society spurns you as a monster, your Joe Wageslave friends turn away from you one by one after you seeked them out for help. You know that you are still the old person just something terrible happened to you and nothing would be more comforting in getting some emotional warmth to solace you but everybody you knew just see your new appearance and is disgusted, you even can be happy if they dont call the cops who shoot you on sight if they are in the mood or after your bounty. Your family doesnt recognize you anymore and ostracise you. Your corp will fire you if they arent infected friendly AND have some use for you which does not consist of experimenting with you. You loose your SIN if your state doesnt belong to a handful of states who grant you a ciminal SIN at least.
You are fucked, god and the world spits on you and still keep kicking you while you lay on a pile of junk behind a rubbish container crying and begging for mercy or an end to your torture. And everything you get are two lowlife gangers from the local street gang who close in on you with their knifes drawn.

What you gonna do? What does the world with you? Where do you go and what will become of you?

This is a far far more interesting scenario than e.g. a D&D viewpoint where you just turn into something chaotic evil and stay compfortable with yourself and not the demons but the paladins are you new enemy and everything is fine and in order.

In shadowrun not even Jow Wageslaves corporate world is in order.

For me i prefer the more interesting and "realistic" scenario. The infected still keep their sapience and should be treated accordingly in my opinion, which goes in both directions. Of course there are the ones which went mad and live as feral predators but the question should be : why is this so? and not simply assume that they are "all just monsters"

Another case would be a character who would get his logic decreased below 1 (which is rulewise not possible but this should shatter their sapience quite well think of a mental handicapped person).

Thing is: political correctness and reality are two sepreate things ask an infected rights guy if he would send his child with a ghoul kid to school and await the answer. People tend to be hypocrites which counts double time for the shadowrun world. Being in the spotlight as a nice guy who promote rights for people may be a nice thing but so far there are just half a dozen nations which DONT have bountys on the head of infected and thats all. Megacorps a quite another thing they turn to everything which promises profit, sucking it dry and leave the rest to rot.



In order to start a serious thread i downtuned the case into simple kissing
More pure and innocent ... hrhr
Those pointy teeths would things surely make interesting ...



Do you mind linking the article? I read through a few pages and im not sure if i got you right.

So what exactly do you intend to "fix", then?

The part where they became hemovores all of a sudden. Don't know how I'm going to deal with that, or even if I am going to deal with that.

There are people like me out there who take joy in playing out their characters to great extent end really enjoy a compfortable and plausible setting and really appreciate your efforts.
Just dont stress yourself and take your time to find something nice and fitting if you like to do so since this whole thing is a rather fluffy matter
Even if you dont want to pinpoint something concrete, ingame indications are still a great help in painting the whole picture.

I think Hamsnibit just described a drug addict...

It's a science fiction standard: what are the limits of "humanity," as regards giving treatment and rights? Not long ago, statements like this...

...were commonplace, in reference to such non-humans as Jews, gays, blacks, and native Americans. In the future, people will say things like this about chimps, apes, non-biological intelligences, and "lower" organisms raised to sapience. Science fiction asks these questions today, so we'll have answers when we get there tomorrow.

Don't forget the gypsies ^^

Nosferatu for example do not have any organs. So even if they have a body temperature it is most likely not a human destribution.

Ummmm, what? Where did you read this? I don't think "purging their organs" in RC means they get rid of them. That's the only place in either RW or RC that says something like that, and I think they meant of blood/normal fluids. Little hard to consume anything (including regular food, like they're apparently supposed to be able to do) if you have no organs at all. Plus, Brain? Eyes? Skin? All organs. Without them, you're a skeleton with muscles, but you certainly aren't going anywhere without the help of a Shedim.

Presumably, it's just badsilly writing. 'Purging the organs' (like, literally) is a classic (undead) vampire thing, so someone put it in without thinking. (At least, I'm sure it's in Anne Rice, bleh). Clearly, it doesn't make sense in SR. Oh well. They're not for players to use anyway, ugh.

Say what?

Only one way to solve this dilemma. We crack open a cold one.

Who's for Nos Hunting?

@Jhaiisiin
What should it mean?
All right, probably not brain, eyes, skin etc. But like Yerameyahu said, the classic vampire stuff.

@Patrick Goodman
What is your question?

@Yerameyahu
Well, thats is hard to tell. Beacause i doubt a vampire would survive a mana void...

I'm not sure what you're responding to, but that's possibly correct anyway. It kind of depends; a ghoul can lose its Magic score and still keep functioning (minus specific powers). This may or may not mean that they can exist without mana. It's hard to imagine, for example, that a vampire can *mundanely* get the energy it biologically needs from blood (notoriously bad nourishment), especially the small amounts I recall the books stipulating. So, presumably they're at least partially mana-fueled, even ignoring their Magic Powers.

Basically, the setting has magic, so the Infected *can* be anything. All we care about is making that choice, having it fit the setting reality, and then sticking to it. My gut says that Infected, even ghouls, require the constant functioning of the non-mundane virus throughout their body; that is, they should require mana in their environment. They shouldn't like Voids or Ebbs, and such a thing might even mess them up in extreme cases. For example, long-term exposure to a Void should probably make them get sick and die, as their magic-infused biological systems quit working. (This is all just me, off the cuff. )

@Yerameyahu

Just saying it makes actually the same sense like any other way to handle it. Just a choice the writer had to make.

Oh, I see. Well, I thought I heard someone say that Nosferatu *don't* have the Hemovore penalty, so therefore they do need guts. I don't deal with Infected much, and I was too lazy to find the book. If we were talking again about one of the actual Hemovores, then yes, see my last.

The books have, in some cases, attempted to differentiate between mana-powered effects (Pixie flight) and physical 'mundane' aspects that merely require a mana field to come into being in the first place (like, a centaur). If they did that in all cases, how lucky we would be. The question is also complicated by tying some 'mana-powered' things to a Magic score, and not others (IIRC, of course).

Paranormal Animals of Europe - the first rules appearance of the Nosferatu, as far as I know - doesn't say anything about Nosferatu not having organs. Third Edition didn't get a full-length book on Critters [much less 2], it only got Critters, with the GM screen: its tiny description also doesn't include anything to that effect. Nor does Running Wild.

But of course Runner's Companion includes the phrase in relation to PC Nosferatu, but nowhere else that I can think of off the top of my head. Does anyone know how or why this addition to the canon idea of Nosferatu was made? [Vampires, too, to some degree, although the phrase is different: "internal transformation and purging," which seems more reasonable.]

I thought it was pretty clear: What the heck are you talking about? Specifically, the bit about nosferatu not having organs.

Is this seriously what men think about? Color me jaded.

Why are you assuming it's not women? How heteronormative of you.

Fine. Is this what... People (?) think of? Does people include Vampires too? Don't want to leave them out

Don't let them fool you. That's really what we men think about. Some of us are just better at pretending we're not thinking about it all the time. Now back on topic.

I can't recall off hand where the idea that Nosferatu purge internal organs comes from but man it sounds familiar. When I sober up I swear I'll pull some books off the shelf and look.

Maybe from the origins of the Vampiric History?

I mean, the Japanese Vampire leaves it's body in a vat of vinegar and flies around just head and spinal cord.