You are not alone.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Strikes me as a bit to good, compared with the other option, healing only 0.1 per MONTH.

Well, you do not know if this is meant to be just for one point etc.

It would make "DOOM" look to weak in my book.

@Yerameyahu

Well, I would have also problems killing a puppy.
Put it like that: If I have two buttons in front of me, and I have to press one. One killing all the canine on the planet the second killing all the vampires(and their variants). The second would be easier to rationalise than the first. In both cases I am killing off an other spicies. For one I can at least say I did it to protect my own.

Can't be too hard, or we would not having one war after the other. Actually thats the first step: They are no persons, they are enemies.

From a scientific point of view vampires are not even mammals. They are less "human" than pigs or dogs. Actually it is very likely that you would share more DNA with a pig, than you would with a SR-Vampire.

That's the whole point: "Actually thats the first step: They are no persons, they are enemies." This is universally recognized as a problem (and error).

As for the puppies, again, I didn't say I cared about the killing. It's calling a 'former' metahuman who's *talking* to you a 'non-person' that's the issue. 'From a scientific point of view', vampires are metahumans with a disease. But if there were giant spiders that could talk, they'd still be people, too; DNA and taxonomy are not relevant.

The other option ONLY heals Essence Holes. And honestly, Those are FAR more difficult to heal back than just Native Essence, in My Opinion.
And DOOM has no SR4 Analog currently, so I do not worry about that.

Besides, If you cannot afford to have your essence regenerated, what does it matter how easy it is to do? The average person will die from Essence Loss regardless...

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
It has, it is called DOOM and found in a book called augmentation. (Well, it is a Variant of Bedlam, biowarfareagents)


Well there are major points. With the influence power and 1 Point a week regeneration one human would be enough...

@Yerameyahu

Nope...They have a different DNA now.
And defining humans by intellect, well lets say there are problems with that. "Whats your problem, I am just killing only retarded!"

Why? Because they once were? Our ancestors were all "fish" at one time...
Our DNA is what defines us as a species and our common evolutionary history for thousands and thousands of years.
A vampire has the DNA of some virus, which turned up some years ago.

I am not saying that I personally see it that way. I am just pointing out, that you can see it that way and it would be consistant.
(And it would be in no way more racist than eating a pig.)

I agree that's a problem with definition, which is why I had a problem with *your* idea that 'vampires aren't mammals'. It's exactly the same issue. I was not at *all* defining humans by intellect. I said that someone talking to you is clearly a person.

Our ancestors were not (each) fish at one time. Individuals didn't change species. A vampire is an individual that started as a metahuman (or, just humans?). And, I'm not even talking about species at all, which is why DNA and taxonomy are irrelevant.

There it is indeed (Never made the Connection), but it does not appear at first glance to be the DOOM of Shadowtech, from what I remember. I do not have a copy handy currently, will look at Friday Night.



The DNA is still Metahuman, it just has a Retrovirus (that rewrote the DNA a bit) that resists removal.

As was the host of an insect spirit... And those thing has, (Considering a flesh form) even more "human" left...

I'm not talking about an individual runner who is witnessed by the police while he kills, I'm talking about the police automatically killing anyone who has been identified as a shadowrunner, regardless of evidence, situation, actual threat etc. Shadowrunners kill and commit crime, so they need to be eliminated -- LoneStar death-squads who track down and kill identified shadowrunners in their sleep. Who cares if they've only used LTL weapons so far? They're shadowrunners, so chances are they will kill someone sometime. Let's kill them before they do!

THAT'S what the comparison is with exterminating all Infected! (...and with all the information available in the 6th world, it would be fairly easy to identify and track down shadowrunners as long as you don't need any actual evidence of crimes. Tracking organized crime is even easier - those can be executed at an even higher rate.)

If you go about capturing and trying Infected on a case by case basis, that's fine. Those who kill and maim and unlawfully desecrate corpses should be tried in a court of law and sentenced accordingly (or likely be shot while resisting arrest, in many cases).



Well, most people have no real way of identifying an Infected beyond visual, and with the options available for surgery etc it can be quite difficult to say if a person is infected, or changeling, or just has cyber-teeth, or if he is, in fact, completely normal. Only mages good at assensing, and possibly experts on the HMHVV-infected, could consistently identify many of the infected. Both of those would be rather rare. If you want to identify them otherwise, you'll have to get close and possibly even get a blood sample.

Some are easier to identify, of course, but there is a lot of possibility for error if you encourage people to 'just kill' infected...

What's your point, Irion? First, possession is totally different (the premise of the OP is that the infected character is the same 'mind'), but let's accept this anyway. If Mr. Insect does nothing wrong and carries on a conversation with you, leave him alone. I doubt either of those is likely, so it's not a practical matter to worry about. Still, if you *could* exorcise the insect, you'd be saving the person.

Chapter and verse, please.

This is a poor example i think, the essence and knowledge is consumed wholly by the spirit.
There are hints that the viral mutation causes some mental quirks which makes it much easier for the infected to deal psychologically with the need to kill.
A distance between the victim like humans have to a slaughter animal.



I think he refers to the part that HMHVV 1 infecteds cant carry out babies because the Virus jumps over and die Immunity : Age power kills the fetus.

I think what we're talking about is a very fundamental (and well-covered) issue in SR. There are a couple parts: sapient rights, and criminal affairs. It seems pretty clear that anything sapient in SR, regardless of DNA/etc. (meaning metahumans, free spirits, AI, sapient paracritters, non-'feral' Infected) are 'people'. There's some room for debate here with things like Insect spirits, Horrors, and 'real evil', but only as a fun and diverting discussion, not a practical one.

It's also pretty clear that you can't just condemn a whole group of people (as ravensmuse last mentioned) for really any reason. All shadowrunners, all trolls, all mages, all technomancers, all ghouls, all metahumans, whatever. Treat them as individual criminals, fine. 100% fine. Use racial profiling, even: "okay, we're assuming these dudes with white skin and claws are dangerous feral ghouls". Still fine, in SR. But if one strolls up and asks you for the time, you don't get to incinerate him just 'cuz.

Chapter and verse on that part, too, please.

Seeing as how you had a big hand (iirc) in this recently, Patrick, I would bet that there IS NO Chapter and Verse for this. But it should be interesting to watch...

Oh... and keep up the good work on the restructuring... I Like what I have seen...

Born Infected, the black box p.77 RC which refers to the born infected quality
Only bandersnatchii, fomóraig, ghouls, and
loup-garou can reproduce in this manner—banshees,
dzoo-noo-qua, goblins, nosferatu, vampires, and
wendigo pass the virus along in the germ line, and
the fetus fails to develop properly.

I am not sure that your Intended Reference actually matches up with Irion's Intended Reference...

Hamsnibit: Danke schoen.

Tymeaus: As it turns out, there is. I forget the sidebars in RC a lot. The stuff I wrote, I'm pretty sure about, but the stuff that came before I sometimes forget, no matter how often I've read the thing for research. (And I'm going to have to re-read a lot of the RC stuff soon for an upcoming project. Hurrah.)

Um well, the defining trait of mammals is that they raise their children by lactation. What else could he be referring to?

@Patrick Goodman
Gern geschehen, werter Herr.

There are no "Shadowrunners" as a group. It is a name given to people working off the book for corps or other interested parties.
Basically they are mercenaries. So yes, caught in the crossfire nobody will give a damn. Dead criminals!
The point is, it is pointless to send a deathsquad searching for "Shadowrunners".


Yeah, proving they are organized crime without proving any crime. Yeah, that should work.


If you go about capturing and trying Infected on a case by case basis, that's fine. Those who kill and maim and unlawfully desecrate corpses should be tried in a court of law and sentenced accordingly (or likely be shot while resisting arrest, in many cases).



Yeah, cosmetic surgery does not mix good with regeneration. And hell, operating on a ghoul is playing russian roulette.


Again, nobody is going out there and saying: Lets torch the infected. They will be taken care of, just to prevent such a thing.
Man, look how people get all upset if someone with a sexual prior is living near them. Now give this guy superhuman strength, speed and a pysical addiction to his "crime".

@Yerameyahu
With your core book knowledge yes. But for the people it is both: Human turned into monster because of some magic stuff....

@Hamsnibit
Thanks, I actually missunderstood what Patrick Goodman wanted...

The DNA part was a guess, but as I reread the capter they used "Junk DNA which is now activated"....
How it got there in the first place... Well, only God knows... (Who must now exist...)

The reason some infected can't reproduce normally is because the virus kills the fetus, not because they aren't mammals. Just because their dna may change (not entirely sure exactly what HMHVV does as far as dna goes) doesn't mean the person changes in any significant way -- compare goblinized orks and trolls, as well as changelings...

This... Thank You...

"Again, nobody is going out there and saying: Lets torch the infected. They will be taken care of, just to prevent such a thing." … Somebody is definitely saying this.

Yup, that would be me. Fire and acid - the only way to sterilize these monsters for good, I say. Fewer monsters wandering around make the Sixth World a marginally better place, at least.

Still working on offline post responses, which my work schedule is affecting quite a bit - 2 down, 13 to go. Probably be this weekend before I post them all.

Use drones, too. Easier to clean off and they can't get infected with HMHVV.

Bugs and Infected are two different cases though.

With an Infected, there's still sapience there - they're still the folks they were before, but now their more base instincts over-ride the higher mental functions and turn them into essentially animals. However, it's been shown and demonstrated with vampires, ghouls, loup-garou, etc, that there are higher functioning Infected that can function relatively normally within Sixth World society (per your definition of "normal"; despite my defense of them, I probably wouldn't hang out long with a ghoul crowd, for instance).

Bugs have sapience, yes - the same way that any insect does. But it's not the person that was there before. You can argue about the fact that good merges retain memories and personality traits, but it cannot be argued that these are not the people you used to know. There's an alien intelligence there that sees you as nothing more than food or breeding material.

Ghouls and vamps can be reasoned with. Bugs just wanna eat you or turn you into one of them.

Now you're talking! I like Fire Elementals as well - they're also immune to HMHVV and they seem to like to burn things. Now I just need to figure out how to conjure Acid Elementals - maybe take a page from Redcloak's playbook and check out those Chlorine Elementals, too.

Now that sounds like a Toxic Shaman talking, complete with Toxic Spirits. But, hey, a little bit of extremism in the pursuit of a lofty goal for the betterment of mankind is never a bad thing, is it? [/sarcasm]

Of course they are a group: 'people working off the books for corps or other interested parties'. All it takes is someone who keeps tabs on those ppl with estaböished knowledge skills like 'prime runners', shadowrunner teams', etc, or by spying on known Mr.Johnsons...then go get 'em.



It's not illegal to be in a gang associated with organized crime. Police today know many many members of Hells Angels, Mafia, Yakuza etc. It won't be any different in the 6th world. They know who they are, suspect what they have done, but don't have proof that is solid enough to put them away for any significant amount of time, so they keep watch and let smaller fish go about their business so they can get to the bigger fish. They just have to start shooting them instead.



A vampire or banshee won't need cosmetic surgery - a bit of make-up and they'll pass for human. Ghouls can get it; it's just a question of money and connections. Or infecting a good street doc and hoping he'll retain his intelligence.



Yeah, Janessa is as she said. Anyone in the SR world who offers bounties on Infected is saying just that.



Not every human will feel this way, and the opinions of many who do can be swayed by propaganda, spin doctors, the media...especially once you start showing functioning Infected who make noticable contributions to society, and denounce the wicked ways of others of their kind. Hell, once you start informing people that you have a higher chance of activating your hidden Magic potential, some will line up to be Infected themselves! No more aging, regenerating injuries in a matter of seconds, good chance of becoming a magician and landing a high-paying job...

All you need is the right people saying it, and a way to solve the blood-drinking/soul sucking thing without having to kill people and you're set!

Also, remember that in the Sixth World Martin deVries has been on a crusade similar to Janessa's for decades, but the bigwigs in the Ordo have managed to keep his crusade to a minimum by using their connections, influence, money, and possibly magical means.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1129097

This is pretty relevant.

I mean. At best, it's a partial replacement for their non-metahuman flesh diet, which is the bit we don't care about. Animal meat is expensive in 2070, but not particularly objectionable.

You know. This thread has given me some real food for thought.

Project. Get my GM to agree to the most fun characters ever.

Scottish Minotaur Vampire. Wears only a kilt and loves animals. After all, cows remind him of someone.

Either that or a changeling vampire with bone growths on her temples and a reptile tail. She is exceptionally lawful and never hurts anyone. She has a close circle of friends that donate to her blood needs for which she compensates well.

Let me get this straight...you want to be a scottish Tauren...in Shadowrun?

*yoink*

I dunno what I'm gonna do with it yet, but *yoink*!

Nah, Tauren would be WoW

You see, when a Tauren and a Dwarf in WoW love each other very much...

And it's statements like this that remind me of why I'm a big Death Note fan - Hail Kira!

One thing about the Essence Drain power, and Essence in general, is how it is viewed in the world of SR. It seems like most of the population only has a vague idea of "life force"-- if you're not awakened or getting a fair amount of 'ware, it simply doesn't come up a lot. Most of the civilian population (defined here as mundanes with no or light 'ware) could lose a point or two of Essence and never know it.

Then comes the problem of proving who took your Essence. If you're not being astrally perceived a lot, being a point down just means that at some point in your life you lost a point of Essence. If you take the HMHVV'er who you say bit you to court, it seems like you'd have to expect their lawyer to bring up all sorts of things that could account for a loss of Essence-- drug use, a Mr. Studd implant you got on the sly and later had taken out when it malfunctioned and damaged the drywall in your apartment, another vampire (after all, if you've been with one, who knows how many you've really been with).

But let's say you're lucky enough to be able to prove that this is the vamp that drained a point of your Essence, how does the law define "life force"? And how much is it worth to the jury awarding you damages? 16.667% of your projected life's earnings? Can you prove being a point of Essence down is the cause of your depression, and thus qualifies as mental anguish?

That's...um...that's really...that sounds like a very...impressive...implant there if that's the case...

*straight-faced* Yup, and there are these three red LEDs that light up when it finds a load-bearing member.

I know you're kidding, tehana, but those combinations are luckily impossible.

Killing an infected friend is like putting your dog down if it gets rabies. It was a good companion but now it wants to bite you and give you super-death-herpes. It will make you sad and maybe you will cry but it has to be done.

This is only true if your friend loses his intellect while becoming infected.

Killing still intelligent friends doesn't make you sad?

no, still intelligent friends wont kill you, they kill just other people
(or if they dont want to do this, they will kill themselves)

I would assume shadowrunners taste better and are better for the infected since we are free range?

assumption: you are the vampire, your mental capabilities are unchanged
would you kill your friend or some homeless guy?

Titanium IS an Element, as opposed to fire, earth, water and air.

So you just want to kill people of you claim or think are associated with organized crime?
Like, don't know, the candidate of the other party?


Well, depneds on the artist I say...


No, they are saying: Thank you oh professional vampire hunter for solving one of our problems.



Right... Which would lead to an increase of vampire population...And they NEED to feed on humans. So what you are actually telling is: The second you STOP killing them, you set the human race up as a slave race.

The problem here is, and I guess thats the point most people do not get, that this is not some thought of race war.
You have one species which can ONLY live by consuming the other. And you tell the other should tolerate that, because they were once part of their society. (And there is nothing like, we can just give them blooddonations and be done with it!)

And all your talk about one or two good vampires does not change that.

The point is: THERE CAN NOT BE PEACFUL COEXISTANCE. It is practical impossible.

You will always have the domination of one species over the other. You can't just give the effected a continent of their own, because they would simply starve.
If you make them normal people their population will rise and they will need to consume more and more essence. (And nobody is choosing to be dinner, if he could be eating)
Unless you make "the gift of essence" very expensive. And the one who can't pay for it and just takes it will be hunted down and killed. (Domination of humans)
This may shift and humans will be held like caddle.(domination of vampires)


Lets put it that way: Pigs get intelligent, and you will ask if we could still eat them. Just parts, you know. They may even regenerate them.
Do you think the pigs would object?