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[almost normal]

Did a search. Our search feature blows.

Given the vast amount of skills for hand to hand melee adepts, (Killing hands + Elemental strike) is there any reason for an adept to use a sword instead of a fist?

[Yerameyahu]

Weapon foci, and you don't have to blow all your PP on hand mods.

[almost normal]

Well, put it this way. It's 1 PP to ignore all armor, and you'll never have to pay karma or bond with anything.

I mean, common sense says that two equally skilled fighters a few feet from each other, the guy with the sword is gonna win, but SR just doesn't handle that well. (To be fair, very few games do)

[Jeremiah Kraye]

Pretty sure the guy with the sword would have an advantage, which I believe SR does have, REACH attribute on melee weapons.

[almost normal]

Right. It's just done abstractly. You could argue that everything in SR is an abstraction, but that's a silly argument. Two cars couldn't be in the same space at the same time, for instance, despite chase combat and driving all being abstractions.

A more elegant way to handle it would be not allowing a lower reach attack to take place until the higher reach has had a chance to act. Almost like an AoO.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

Suppose elegance depends on the eye of the beholder.

[Dakka Dakka]

Another reason to use weapons is the two weapons style from Arsenal. Always using Full Defense while attacking is a nice boost to defense, and opens up other maneuvers.

Generally though, the Unarmed Melee Adept is a staple of SR. The Armed Melee Adept not so much.

[almost normal]

Hrmmz..

Would striking in melee in pitch black conditions/blindfolded count as "blind fire"? Same question for throwing weapons.

[Xenefungus]

Yep, blind fire applies just the same in melee and with throwing. I have a blind adept who focusses on ignoring that -6 modifier while his favorite weapons are smoke grenades tied to his belt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I also want to repeat Dakka Dakka: If you go armed close combat adept, it is BECAUSE of two weapon style. It's just so good. And just 4 Karma o_O

[UmaroVI]

Well, put it this way. It's 1 PP to ignore all armor, and you'll never have to pay karma or bond with anything.

Uh, what?

[Dakka Dakka]

I think he is talking about Killing Hands and Elemental Strike: Sound.

[UmaroVI]

That might be true, but if he thinks that's the case he needs to reread Elemental Strike for all the drawbacks it comes with.

[Dakka Dakka]

Are you talking about activation and duration?

[Umidori]

The adept powers and even the martial arts available do tend to favor unarmed. But now I'm curious how they match up.

1 - Critical Strike adds DV to unarmed attacks, while most weapons have (STR/2) + X, but with X being based on size, typically.
2 - Killing Hands allows you to choose between Stun and Physical. Most weapons are simply Physical. KH also allows you to ignore ItNW.
3 - Distance Strike turns your unarmed attacks into ranged attacks. Nothing similar can be done with melee weapons, other than throwing them.
4 - Elemental Strike gives you the elemental effect of your choice, which can get crazy. Only similar ability for melee involves spells.
5 - Nerve Strike allows you to reduce an enemy's Agility or Reaction instead of deal damage. Only similar ability for melee involves spells.
6 - Penetrating Strike grants your unarmed attack armor penetration. Melee weapons have their own, but it is based on size, typically.
7 - Smashing Blow multiplies base DV x2 for attacking barriers. Not terribly impressive, often matched by melee weapon DV.

Unarmed does seem to come out a bit better in general via adept powers. We also know that most of the martial arts benefit unarmed, but there are at least a few that benefit melee weapons. Unarmed is of course entirely concealable, whereas weapons (particularly larger and more powerful ones) are not. Unarmed also cannot be disarmed or confiscated or destroyed.

Melee weapons can, however, be modified, often negating these problems to some extent (Chameleon Coating, Gecko Grip, etc). And melee weapons also eat up far fewer power points, leaving more room for utility powers, or maybe even other combat powers that benefit both types, like another rank of Improved Reflexes or a higher rating of Improved Combat Ability, etc. And of course, as others mentioned, you can get a weapon focus, you can use dual wielding for extra defense or even for twice the number of attacks per turn with a split pool.

I dunno. I think they're pretty close, but fill different niches. Unarmed adepts focus their powers more on their combat power, whereas a melee adept is probably going to diversify their abilities a bit more, either into more tactical combat choices or perhaps even into social or utility powers. And that's worth noting - if we're simply looking at combat potential, you'd probably want to go with a gun adept for maximum combat effectiveness anyway.

~Umi

[almost normal]

I think he is talking about Killing Hands and Elemental Strike: Sound.

It's been a while, but I think I was thinking of ES : Sand

[almost normal]

I dunno. I think they're pretty close, but fill different niches. Unarmed adepts focus their powers more on their combat power, whereas a melee adept is probably going to diversify their abilities a bit more, either into more tactical combat choices or perhaps even into social or utility powers. And that's worth noting - if we're simply looking at combat potential, you'd probably want to go with a gun adept for maximum combat effectiveness anyway.

~Umi

Well, putting it another way, if I wanted to spend 2 PP on combat powers, and 4 on 'Being a crazy adept', I could easily get +4 DV, armor ignoring strikes if I went unarmed, and if I went Melee, it seems the best I could do offensively would be a +4 DP.

Let's assume a damage mitigating pool of 16 for the bad guys, and 4 strength and a 1 handed sword for the melee adept. Let's also buy hits, for the hell of it.

8 (Skills and Spec) + 4 (Agility) = 12 dice, or 3 hits for unarmed, and 4 hits for swords, thanks to the improved weapon skill. (Yes, I know you can bump both of those up a bit.)

The Sword is going to do 9P, bought hits from armor knocking that down to 5p.
The Fist is going to do 9p, bought hits from armor being ignored due to the elemental strike.

This leads me to believe that a melee weapon using adept wishing to use power points on their fighting style of choice must be defensively focused to get a good value for their power points, which supports Umi's posit that melee weapon users would also be more dynamic and mobile with their selection of powers in the first place.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Well, putting it another way, if I wanted to spend 2 PP on combat powers, and 4 on 'Being a crazy adept', I could easily get +4 DV, armor ignoring strikes if I went unarmed, and if I went Melee, it seems the best I could do offensively would be a +4 DP.

Let's assume a damage mitigating pool of 16 for the bad guys, and 4 strength and a 1 handed sword for the melee adept. Let's also buy hits, for the hell of it.

8 (Skills and Spec) + 4 (Agility) = 12 dice, or 3 hits for unarmed, and 4 hits for swords, thanks to the improved weapon skill. (Yes, I know you can bump both of those up a bit.)

The Sword is going to do 9P, bought hits from armor knocking that down to 5p.
The Fist is going to do 9p, bought hits from armor being ignored due to the elemental strike.

This leads me to believe that a melee weapon using adept wishing to use power points on their fighting style of choice must be defensively focused to get a good value for their power points, which supports Umi's posit that melee weapon users would also be more dynamic and mobile with their selection of powers in the first place.

Just a couple of quick things to throw in. Reach for weapon and most of the weapons have some kind of armor pen. and then of course you have to add in that you can make* the weapon into a focus and personalized grip. you cant do either of those for hands. And the elemental strike you have to activate and it lasts a limited time. Situationaly the unarmed would be better, but overall the melee would be better.


*=edit

[Umidori]

Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only.

~Umi

[VykosDarkSoul]

Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only.

~Umi

LOL...sorry Umi...i had to laugh at one thing...


"just halve armor"

thats all, no big (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[almost normal]

Just a couple of quick things to throw in. Reach for weapon and most of the weapons have some kind of armor pen. and then of course you have to add in that you can make* the weapon into a focus and personalized grip. you cant do either of those for hands. And the elemental strike you have to activate and it lasts a limited time. Situationaly the unarmed would be better, but overall the melee would be better.
*=edit

The focus is going to cost/BP, so I hadn't included it. I also wasn't aware that personalized grip had an effect on Melee, outside of recoil comp. The 'Limited time' that Elemental Strike lasts equates to 6 combat turns. That tends to be enough, but you're also correct that I didn't apply reach. To fix that,

Unarmed = 9p
Sword = 5.25p

[Umidori]

@VykosDarkSoul

In comparison to sonic, it isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also there's no reason you couldn't achieve the same effect on a melee weapon through other means: spells, enchanting, taser weapons, etc.

@almost normal

Personalized Grip on a melee weapon gives +1 to your dice pool.

~Umi

[VykosDarkSoul]

The focus is going to cost/BP, so I hadn't included it. I also wasn't aware that personalized grip had an effect on Melee, outside of recoil comp. The 'Limited time' that Elemental Strike lasts equates to 6 combat turns. That tends to be enough, but you're also correct that I didn't apply reach. To fix that,

Unarmed = 9p
Sword = 5.25p

Personalized grip adds 1 recoil comp for ranged or 1 die for Melee

[almost normal]

Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only.

~Umi

We can't really argue what's a strong candidate for houserules. Practically all of magic would be tossed out the window. (Double digit damage from spells resisted with only Body + Non-existent counterspelling, for instance)

[almost normal]

@VykosDarkSoul

In comparison to sonic, it isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also there's no reason you couldn't achieve the same effect on a melee weapon through other means: spells, enchanting, taser weapons, etc.

~Umi

If the rules would support that, I'd be in favor. Dwarven Sonic Hammers ftw!

[Umidori]

Personally, if I was building a melee adept I'd take the power points I saved on pure combat potential and use them for stealth. Might not do as much damage in direct combat, but I'd still be able to hold my own AND I'd be the sneakiest sneak that ever sneaked past a sneaking parlour.

~Umi

[almost normal]

Personally, if I was building a melee adept I'd take the power points I saved on pure combat potential and use them for stealth. Might not do as much damage in direct combat, but I'd still be able to hold my own AND I'd be the sneakiest sneak that ever sneaked past a sneaking parlour.

~Umi

Unless someone looks Astrally. Then you light up like a torch. =/

Stupid magic.

[Elfenlied]

Note that Unarmed Adepts do have access to Weapon Foci thanks to Hardliner Gloves.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Note that Unarmed Adepts do have access to Weapon Foci thanks to Hardliner Gloves.

worms...can of...opened! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[BishopMcQ]

Elfenlied--Many of the threads I've read before seem to take the opinion that most of the Unarmed Adept powers don't work in conjunction with the Hardliner Gloves. (Killing Hands, Elemental Strike, Smashing Blow, etc.) YMMV in what you can convince your GM of.

Almost Normal--Without active foci, wouldn't the adept basically appear the same on the astral as a mundane sneaking around? Assensing can tell the difference, but they wouldn't glow any brighter than most folks.

[almost normal]

Almost Normal--Without active foci, wouldn't the adept basically appear the same on the astral as a mundane sneaking around? Assensing can tell the difference, but they wouldn't glow any brighter than most folks.

I had figured that their active powers (which are most of them) would make them glow, much the same as a sustained spell. At the very least, their magic score would bump up the glow a bit.

[Stahlseele]

Fluff has it that every magically active thing glows like a little sun on the Astral.

[Umidori]

Ahh, that old argument. I'm not prepared to get into that in depth again right now.

I have to say that I've always found the rules for stealth WOEFULLY lacking. You'd think all the various editions they've put out, they'd have expanded upon stealth more than the stupid, vague blurb of a paragraph in SR4A, and actually directly spell out how it works for both physical and astral.

I will point out, however, that the SR4A section on Astral Perception says the following...

Like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious.

And a character who is infiltrating is NOT immediately obvious. They're staying out of line of sight, hiding behind things, generally avoiding being seen.

"But how can they avoid being seen by a spirit on the astral which they themselves cannot detect?", you may ask. The same way they avoid being seen by a physical foe under the effects of an Invisibility spell, or a physical foe camouflaged under the effects of the Disguise skill, or any other foe in any other situation.

A sneaking person rolls their Infilitration to determine how well, in abstract terms, they avoid being seen. Their opponent rolls their Perception or Assensing to determine how observant they are, in abstract terms, and whether they notice the sneaking person. Those are the rules. Everything else is fluff.

~Umi

[almost normal]

Those are the rules. Everything else is fluff.
~Umi

Interactions between Astral activities and the Mundane are not, however. A torch in a hallway is obvious. A ninja sneaking down a hallway, by the universe, would be just as obvious on the astral, thanks to his glowing aura.

If you could show me otherwise, without ambiguous passages, you'd make me incredibly happy.

[UmaroVI]

Are you talking about activation and duration?

And visibility. Elemental Strike is a simple to turn on (so it locks out your ability to make an attack on the first pass, which is a huge drawback), it's visible (so you can't just leave it on all the time), and it's short enough duration that you pretty much do have to turn it on at the start of the fight.

[Dakka Dakka]

Note that Unarmed Adepts do have access to Weapon Foci thanks to Hardliner Gloves.

Yes they do, but arguably then all those nifty powers do no longer function. While you use the Unarmed Combat skill, using those gloves is not considered an unarmed attack by everyone as you are using a weapon.

Technically dwarven sonic warhammers cannot exist, but with [Element] Aura you can get something even better. Not only do your attacks (including those with a hammer) are considered sonic attacks and receive a damage boost, people that attack you get hit by the sound damage as well (by RAW even those who attack with ranged weapons)

You can also make a very defensive armed adept:
Lots of IPs
Combat Sense as much as possible
Improved Ability (Melee Skill of choice)
Two Weapon Style
Disarm
Escrima

[almost normal]

And visibility. Elemental Strike is a simple to turn on (so it locks out your ability to make an attack on the first pass, which is a huge drawback), it's visible (so you can't just leave it on all the time), and it's short enough duration that you pretty much do have to turn it on at the start of the fight.

That's just erroneous, seemingly intentionally so.

Most, if not all encounters fall into two categories.

Encounters that Melee characters start.
Encounters that Melee characters sit out.

I've seen firsthand, repeatedly, where a player gets jumpy and pulls his weapon and starts firing, and for the rest of the combat, the melee guy is stuck helplessly running towards combat for the next 2-3 turns.

No, in the actual game, the melee character tends to have a few moments to himself before combat starts. The lost simple action is nearly meaningless.

[BishopMcQ]

I had figured that their active powers (which are most of them) would make them glow, much the same as a sustained spell. At the very least, their magic score would bump up the glow a bit.

Fair cop. As has been pointed out, the rules are a bit vague. I can see an argument for active adept powers glowing brighter--it would be a choice then to have adepts suppress their powers like a technomancer suppressing their brain to avoid a scan. Something to think about...

[Achsin]

@Dakka
How does the [Element] Aura do damage to ranged attackers by RAW?

Any successful physical melee attack against the subject
also means that the attacker must resist similar damage from
the aura. The aura’s Damage Value equals the spell’s Force.

Also for the defensive-ish oriented adept, don't forget to take a level of Counterstrike and put some of those extra parry/block dice to double use.

[almost normal]

Fair cop. As has been pointed out, the rules are a bit vague. I can see an argument for active adept powers glowing brighter--it would be a choice then to have adepts suppress their powers like a technomancer suppressing their brain to avoid a scan. Something to think about...

I like that for combat powers. Tune down the enhanced initiative, killing hands and all that. It'd be tough to do with powers you're using to remain stealthy, however. Increased Attribute (agility), Increased non-combat skills, traceless step and the like.

[Elfenlied]

Would a warhammer prepared as a vessel and possessed by a spirit with Elemental Aura( Sonic) qualify?

[Stahlseele]

The complete Hammer, including the grip, would be also under the influence of the aura.
So the wielder will suffer too.

[Dakka Dakka]

Interactions between Astral activities and the Mundane are not, however. A torch in a hallway is obvious. A ninja sneaking down a hallway, by the universe, would be just as obvious on the astral, thanks to his glowing aura.

If you could show me otherwise, without ambiguous passages, you'd make me incredibly happy.

The ninja is just as glowing whether he is mundane or awakened. On the other hand a hiding ninja needs to be spotted before he is obvious, whether with mundane or astral perception. Everything that is opaque on the physical plane is opaque to the astral observer as well. Glass is even opaque on the astral plane. The sneaker can employ the same techniques against an astral observer as against a physical one.

Also while the adept may have detectable powers active this does not make him more noticeable as any other character. There are only different "brightness levels" between auras of nonliving objects and the auras of living creatures and magical effects. Astral Forms are not brighter, they are just tangible on the astral plane.

@Achsin: Sorry, I got that confused with the Critter Power Energy Aura:

Any successful attack against a critter with Energy Aura means the attacker also takes damage from the attack. The attacker must make a Damage Resistance Test against a Damage Value equal to the critter’s Magic. Impact armor protects with half its value.

Too bad Counterstrike does not work with Two Weapon Style.

[Yerameyahu]

The whole possessed weapon aura thing only works if the *spirit* is making the attacks. It's not a free-lunch super-enchantment.

[almost normal]

Also while the adept may have detectable powers active this does not make him more noticeable as any other character.

There are only different "brightness levels" between auras of nonliving objects and the auras of ... magical effects.

Given that the whole of adepts rely on their magical powers and effects, your two statements don't seem to match, which is my initial problem.

[Elfenlied]

The whole possessed weapon aura thing only works if the *spirit* is making the attacks. It's not a free-lunch super-enchantment.

Yep, it's akin to wielding a plasteel homonculus shaped like a Warhammer and whackin' people with it. Which you gotta admit is something any dwarf worth his Mohawk would do and totally not phallic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Fair cop. As has been pointed out, the rules are a bit vague. I can see an argument for active adept powers glowing brighter--it would be a choice then to have adepts suppress their powers like a technomancer suppressing their brain to avoid a scan. Something to think about...

And if the Adepts powers were visible as such, then they leave an Astral Signature of those powers wherever they go, which most Adepts are ill-prepared to remove.

Pretty sure that Adept powers don't Astrally Glow innately, except for a few obvious ones, like Elemental Strike.

[Dakka Dakka]

The whole possessed weapon aura thing only works if the *spirit* is making the attacks. It's not a free-lunch super-enchantment.

You don't possess the weapon, you possess the wielder. And BTW I'm sure it should have been melee attacks only for Energy Aura as well.

Given that the whole of adepts rely on their magical powers and effects, your two statements don't seem to match, which is my initial problem.

For a physical analog: A person wearing clothing in bright colors in front of a white wall does not get more noticeable if he attaches buttons in different bright colors to his clothes.

@Signatures: No Problem for the Adept: 1) the signatures are on him as his powers affect him and not his environment. 2) Adept powers do not have a Force, so they remain exactly zero time.

[Yerameyahu]

That's not what Elfenlied said, Dakka Dakka, and then you're not playing your own character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But, that person does get more audible if he attaches additional noisemakers (albeit not linearly, heh).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You don't possess the weapon, you possess the wielder. And BTW I'm sure it should have been melee attacks only for Energy Aura as well.

For a physical analog: A person wearing clothing in bright colors in front of a white wall does not get more noticeable if he attaches buttons in different bright colors to his clothes.

@Signatures: No Problem for the Adept: 1) the signatures are on him as his powers affect him and not his environment. 2) Adept powers do not have a Force, so they remain exactly zero time.

A spell (say Increased Reflexes) effects a Person and not always the environment, and yet, there is still a Signature for the casting of the spell. So, funny man ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) how do you account for that?

For an Adept, his powers work at peak efficiency, so I would set his Magic as his equivalent Force Rating. If he left a Signature. Which he may not. I am a big proponent that Adept powers leave no signature, but Almost-Normal's argument requires that they leave a signature if they are visible in the astral while active.

[Dakka Dakka]

A spell (say Increased Reflexes) effects a Person and not always the environment, and yet, there is still a Signature for the casting of the spell. So, funny man ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) how do you account for that?

I don't know what you are trying to say. I never said anything about the signatures of spells. Adept powers however leave signatures on the adept who uses them and they remain for zero time. See the rules work as we both intend. The signature is created because it is a power, but cannot be detected because it is gone already.

For an Adept, his powers work at peak efficiency, so I would set his Magic as his equivalent Force Rating. If he left a Signature. Which he may not. I am a big proponent that Adept powers leave no signature, but Almost-Normal's argument requires that they leave a signature if they are visible in the astral while active.

This is a houserule and one that severely nerfs adepts. While mages can cast low force spells, every adept power (even rating 1) then stays for MAG hours. Additionally mages can erase those signatures while adepts cannot unless they use astral perception, which also is a power and leaves a signature....

[Stahlseele]

Is the Delay Damage Power still there in SR4?

[Umidori]

I've seen firsthand, repeatedly, where a player gets jumpy and pulls his weapon and starts firing, and for the rest of the combat, the melee guy is stuck helplessly running towards combat for the next 2-3 turns.

What sorts of situations are these melee guys in where they're getting shot at from half to three quarters of a football field away (50-75m), and can't find cover? Moreover at that sort of range, Pistols, Machine Pistols, and Shotguns loaded with Flechette rounds can no longer even reach the target, SMGs and Shotguns loaded with Slug rounds are suffering -3 for Long Range, and even Assault Rifles are suffering -1 for Medium Range.

~Umi

[Yerameyahu]

… Is that very hard to imagine? That's literally what optics are for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Okay, so the longarms can all have their range modifier reduced, yes, very good. The one-handed weapons cannot reach the target, though.

And we're also assuming a 50-75m open area with no cover, presumably. Which surely isn't that common in Seattle, yeah? Even in the boonies you're gonna have trees and foliage, hills and gullies, fences and buildings, etc.

So maybe almost normal likes to run in military style campaigns, taking part in Desert Wars or something, where everyone is running around with longarms in open terrain?

~Umi

[Yerameyahu]

It's possible, which is the point: it's easy to imagine scenarios matching that description, even though they might not be the norm in our own games. Assault rifles and longarms are hardly rare in the discussions around here, and he can't always be in cover if he's also running full speed toward the combat.

[Umidori]

Except that according to the turn-based combat system, he can.

Bullets start flying. Melee Dude gets second slot on Initiative, runs 25m and takes cover. Everyone else spends the turn shooting at each other, anyone who shoots at Melee Dude has to deal with his cover modifiers, and possibly cannot even see him to shoot him. Yeah, it sucks that he has to sit around waiting to move because of the way Movement only occurs over the course of a Combat Turn rather than per Initiative Pass, but he CAN take cover successfully while moving unless he's charging across a barren field with absolutely nothing to hide behind.

Second Combat Turn rolls around, he runs the remaining 25m to the enemies and starts to get medieval on their asses. They're now in melee, taking -3 for any ranged attacks they make and suffering -3 to dodge any ranged attacks they receive.

In the case of a 75m gap, just run and take cover twice before running up and engaging in melee. At most you're out of the fight for 2 turns. If that's too much for you, invest in a backup ranged weapon - even with crappy skill in it, if you just lay down supressing fire while running forward, it's still something.

~Umi

[Yerameyahu]

No. If you're out of cover during the turn, you're out of cover during the turn. You certainly can't use your full move rate on the one pass. Movement doesn't work like that. My point, however, is that he's wasting time ducking behind things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Even if the rules did work like that, I wouldn't want to be the one defending such a gross abuse.

[Falconer]

A weapon adept will generally beat an unarmed adept.

Here's the reason why... weapon foci add dice and reach to the melee combat tests on both attack and defense. This is something NOT available to melee adepts (at least not without essence loss from weapon focus cyber). They toss more dice so are more likely to avoid getting hit, and are more likely to hit in turn.

The flipside is that an unarmed adept is far more likely to hit like a sledgehammer and pound right through things when it does manage to connect. Similarly the points that a unarmed adept spends on things like killing hands, elemental strike, etc... down the tree.. the weapon adept can drop into counter skills like combat sense, counter-strike, and similar.... oppurtunity cost. Essence lost if he does go for a focus... but then since it's cyber attacking the active foci astrally attacks the adept directly as well.

It's the classic problem of if one guy is always rolling 16 dice, and the other one only 12... the guy with 16 is almost always going to come out on top. Not impossible... but 8 out of 10 he will.


PS: as far as I'm concerned... a cyberarm enchanted as a weapon focus is fair game... even bone lacing... (cyber only, not bio as per FAQ). But something like a hardliner glove is a weapon with an independent damage code which just happens to use the unarmed combat skill. In practice it's no difference than an defiance ex shocker used in melee which also happens to use unarmed but no one would claim the ability to use say penetrating strike with.

[Stahlseele]

How does distance strike work in regards to reach anyway?
Does it give Magic Attribute Reach Bonus?
Or does the other Person simply not get to defend himself?

[Elfenlied]

I always thought distance strike changed it to a ranged attack.

[phlapjack77]

SM pg 176
"Though the attack is rolled as a normal unarmed attack (ignoring Reach modifiers), the defender resists the attack as if it were a ranged attack (ie. the defender may just roll Reaction or go on full defense)."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is a houserule and one that severely nerfs adepts. While mages can cast low force spells, every adept power (even rating 1) then stays for MAG hours. Additionally mages can erase those signatures while adepts cannot unless they use astral perception, which also is a power and leaves a signature....

I know, but that seems like what Almost_Normal is saying to me. Maybe I misunderstood.
Sort of the same reason that a Background Count should not affect Adepts (Previous Editions), but does kind of thing.

[almost normal]

This is a houserule and one that severely nerfs adepts.

Evidently, you don't understand what a houserule is.

If the 'Fluff', or description of astral says that while astrally perceiving, All females are blue and all males are red, then that's the way it works. If you AP and look at an androgynous person, their sex would be clear as day.

As it stands, the description of astral states that magical effects are highlighted and obvious, and there can be no argument that an adept's entire repertoire is anything *but* magical.

Frankly, ignoring the way the universe works because you don't like the consequences? That's the houserule.

[almost normal]

A weapon adept will generally beat an unarmed adept.

Here's the reason why... weapon foci add dice and reach to the melee combat tests on both attack and defense.

Except that's why an unarmed adept will mop the floor with Swordy McSwordsbain.

Swordy adds a small amount of dice to defend.
Fist-o adds his entire armor pool.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except that's why an unarmed adept will mop the floor with Swordy McSwordsbain.

Swordy adds a small amount of dice to defend.
Fist-o adds his entire armor pool.

Have to hit Swordy first... You don't need Armor if you don't get hit. So, how is Fisty avoiding being hit, exactly, when he is spending his points to be a One man Wrecking Crew, while the Melee Adept can make a full defense AND attack in the same action?

There are so many variables involved that I cannot see how anyone can say that one is definitely better over the other. Hell, My Thrown Weapon adept trumps both the Melee and Unarmed adept, if you want to go that route.

[almost normal]

Have to hit Swordy first... You don't need Armor if you don't get hit.

/sigh

What focus strength are you assuming to use that renders such a high increased pool so as to make Swordy unhittable?

So, how is Fisty avoiding being hit,

He's not. He's assuming the occasional hit gets through. He just gets the benefit of good armor, while Swordy does not.

Hell, My Thrown Weapon adept trumps both the Melee and Unarmed adept, if you want to go that route.

And my penis is bigger then yours.

The point of the discussion is whether on a fixed PP budget, a Swordy guy can compete with a Fisty guy. So far, I've yet to see numbers that say he can.

[VykosDarkSoul]

/sigh

What focus strength are you assuming to use that renders such a high increased pool so as to make Swordy unhittable?

How about the fact that he is in a full defense every pass without giving up his next pass

And my penis is bigger then yours.

The point of the discussion is whether on a fixed PP budget, a Swordy guy can compete with a Fisty guy. So far, I've yet to see numbers that say he can.

Every time...people try to have a discussion and you turn it into a pissing contest. Grow up.

[Grinder]

How likely is that?