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[Laodicea]

I'm wondering what houserules you all have canonized for use in the majority of games you run or play in. You can feel free to argue about the efficacy of other peoples houserules, but I don't think that's really the point. I'm mostly here to learn how other people are playing, and adapt it for my games.

Here's mine:
Some of these are more clarifications of controversial rules than outright houserules, but I'm fine with them falling into the houserules category.

In-Debt: does not grant you the Nuyen to use. You simply owe that much Nuyen.

Summoning: I think it's too strong. I limit it severely. You can have a maximum of 1 bound spirit, 1 un-bound spirit, and 1 watcher spirit. This rule doesn't necessarily apply to powerful NPCs. This rule applies equally to Technomancers. Alternatively, I've considered making Summoners spend 1 edge per day per bound spirit. That would simply make people optimize their AngelSummoner build for edge, though. But, at least it would be edge they couldn't use for edge's intended purpose.

No PC Pixies.

Free Spirit PCs: There's basically two schools of thought for interpreting Free Spirit RAW. One makes them underpowered and one makes them overpowered. I use the underpowered interpretation.

Stick N Shock Ammo: Does not exist. The shotgun round equivalent does.

Immunity To Normal Weapons: People have argued that elemental damage cuts through this critter power. I don't allow it to unless the critter has an allergy to the elemental damage type. Hitting a Fire Spirit with a fire extinguisher or a cold damage grenade will work. Hitting a Fire Spirit with a flamethrower or shock gloves will not. If the damage has a magical source, it automatically pierces Immunity.

Hacking & Wired connections: Borrowing a page from the book Shadowplay, I've given wired connections an effective signal rating of 0. This means that anything can be hacked. I did this for practical reasons and flavor reasons. The flavor reasons can be found in the book: Shadowplay. The practical reason is that I don't like that players have to write down which of their gear is wired or not. Nor do I enjoy arguments over such petty things.

[Bearclaw]

I like most of your rules.

Here's some of ours:
Stick and shock only works in shotguns. The 1/2 impact armor doesn't work against vehicle/hardened armor, including ITNW. Vehicles still make the body + armor check and spend 2 turns rebooting if they fail. In general, anything else that doesn't take damage also doesn't make the stun check.

Initiating: Your max magic goes up 1. Then you may choose either a point of magic or a meta-magic.

Athletics: The 4 athletics skills are combined into one skill (athletics) and the 4 skills are now specializations. To avoid abuse of a silly, related rule, gymnastics dodge is no more.

[Tanegar]

All elves are bisexual. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Laodicea]

All elves are bisexual. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Even the males!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Fatum]

Even the males!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Especially males D:

Now, back to topic at hand: I've had a few instances of players trying to abuse the RAW, or just being puzzled on specific rules usages, so my houserules page mostly consists of clarifications and slight adjustments. The explanations are mostly stuff like whether Break Weapon is an opposed test, how armour mods like Fire Resistance work for multi-component armour suits, whether Energy Aura affects ranged attackers, or Paralyzing Howl creatures of the same type, and so on, and so for.
Then, we have a Look What's In This Pocket houserule: a runner is capable of spending one point of Edge normally to pull out of his pocket any piece of gear that could fit into it, and that costs no more than 500Y with no more than 12 in Availability. It's a rule that's meant to represent the difference between the character competence and player one: while the player might forget to buy a thermite bar, his Int 8 Infiltration 6 shadow is highly unlikely to make such an amateur mistake.
FFBA in our games stacks with other armour normally; and Softweave has its cost raised to 30% of the base armour price.
Most drone types have alternative models with different names but same stats, except with different propulsion methods. So any drone you can find with Walking is also available in Wheeled - just a little nice something for the riggers.
Contacts in my games have staches appropriate for their profession; so if a runner has a Connection 6 Weapon Trader contact, he's able to get most of the normal weapons right away, without waiting. Similarly, runners are supposed to be spending time training between their stated activities, so there's no training time for skills.
Threading is a Simple Action.
Any Device can have its Signal Rating set by the user to any value from 0 (wireless off) to Signal stat.
Adept initiation can at the player's choice give one Power Point instead of metamagic. If he chooses this option, however, his maximal magic is not increased.
Some Paranormal Powers can be Counterspelled (as per common sense and GM fiat).

[PresentPresence]

Contacts in my games have staches appropriate for their profession

Even the women? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) But more seriously;

Adept initiation can at the player's choice give one Power Point instead of metamagic. If he chooses this option, however, his maximal magic is not increased.

Why do you have this stipulation? Does it make it more balanced?

[Dakka Dakka]

- SIN verification systems use the fake SIN's rating as a threshold. There is no opposed test.
- Shots can be called on narrow short bursts regardless of firing mode. Shots cannot be called on wide short bursts.
- oWod Style initiative. The player whose character has the lowest initiative announces his character's actions first. all quicker characters can interrupt him. Actios are resolved by decending order of initiative
- There are no vampires in SR, or at least the PCs will not get into contact with them.
- more when I remember them. The house rules are not formalized.

@Laodicea: Why would anyone ever bind spirits in your games? You can do nearly all you need with unbound spirits (aid study and aid sorcery aren't that great anyways). If you can only gain one additional (lower force) spirit, I would not bother in investing in binding.

Concerning your rule about ItNW and elemental damage, do you mean elemental damage from a mundane source just does not pierce ItNW, or that you don't even get the attack's AP? The former is RAW anyways. If the latter is the case, how do you handle a sniper rifle with APDS? Does that combination get the AP versus critters with ItNW? Why is it handled differently

[Laodicea]

@Laodicea: Why would anyone ever bind spirits in your games? You can do nearly all you need with unbound spirits (aid study and aid sorcery aren't that great anyways). If you can only gain one additional (lower force) spirit, I would not bother in investing in binding.

Concerning your rule about ItNW and elemental damage, do you mean elemental damage from a mundane source just does not pierce ItNW, or that you don't even get the attack's AP? The former is RAW anyways. If the latter is the case, how do you handle a sniper rifle with APDS? Does that combination get the AP versus critters with ItNW? Why is it handled differently

I don't mind if no one takes binding, or even summoning, in my games. People can take it if they want their maximum of 2 spirits + a watcher. An additional spirit is probably worth the investment. No, it's not as worth it as when you can conjure 8 spirits.

I don't give anything AP vs ITNW, unless they're allergic to it.

[Dakka Dakka]

I don't give anything AP vs ITNW, unless they're allergic to it.

But if they are allergic to it, the allergen removes the quasi-armor altogether in addition to the +4 DV and continual damage, right? I think this unnecessarily screws with fire and water spirits as no other spirits have any allergies. I'm not aware of any other critters with ItNW and allergies. I would just summon spirits of air and man then. They have the cooler powers anyways.

I don't know if you get the desired results with your houserules. On the one hand you reduce the maximum number of spirits a character can have at the same time, on the other hand you make the spirits he does get more powerful.

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

Just curious, if you eliminate SnS for everything but shotguns do you also axe the SA wireless tasers?

[Tanegar]

Then, we have a Look What's In This Pocket houserule: a runner is capable of spending one point of Edge normally to pull out of his pocket any piece of gear that could fit into it, and that costs no more than 500Y with no more than 12 in Availability. It's a rule that's meant to represent the difference between the character competence and player one: while the player might forget to buy a thermite bar, his Int 8 Infiltration 6 shadow is highly unlikely to make such an amateur mistake.

That's actually quite nifty. Can the item be Restricted or Forbidden, or is it straight Availability 12? Regardless, yoink!

Similarly, runners are supposed to be spending time training between their stated activities, so there's no training time for skills.

I also do this, albeit simply because, IMO, training time adds nothing to the game beyond another layer of bookkeeping that I don't want to bother with.

[Thanee]

Character Generation: (for starting out a little lower)

All official SR4A books / e-publications can be used, though I reserve the right to veto certain items or combinations (probably won't happen, unless you are looking at truly outrageous stuff).

Characters will be built using the Karma Generation system from Runner's Companion (SR4A version, i.e. raising Attributes costs new Rating x5, Metatypes cost the BP cost in Karma, etc) with the standard 750 Karma.

In addition to the official rules, the following changes apply:

- The limit for how much Karma can be spent on Attributes (375 plus twice the Metatype BP cost) only applies to Physical and Mental Attributes; Special Attributes (i.e. Edge or Magic) can also be raised with the remaining Karma
- You get additional Knowledge Points equal to Intuition+Logic times 3 to spend on Knowledge Skills (just like with the BP system, one Rank costs one Knowledge Point)
- You also get additional Contact Points equal to Charisma times 3 to spend on Contacts (one point of Connection Rating or Loyalty costs one Contact Point)
- You can break up a Skill Group during character generation, when raising one of the skills further, or adding a specialization. You can never re-merge the Skill Group, however.

And the following limitations apply during character generation:

- Metatypes are limited to the standard Metatypes from the SR4A book and the Metavariants of these from Runner's Companion (no AIs, Changelings, Drakes, Infected, Shapeshifters, etc)
- No Technomancers
- No Possession traditions
- Only two Attributes (Physical or Mental) may be raised as much as four times each (i.e. max 5 for a human), all other Attributes (including all Special Attributes) can only be raised three times each
- Only one Skill can be raised to 5 OR two Skills can be raised to 4. All other Skills (including all Skill Groups) are limited to 3 during character generation.
- Knowledge Skills have the standard limit, i.e. one at 6 or two at 5, and the rest at 4 max.
- All equipment is limited to Availability 8 during character generation (or AV 12 with the Restricted Gear quality); the only exception to this are Fake SINs and Licenses, which have the normal limit of Availability 12
- Contacts are limited to Ratings of 3, both for Connection and Loyalty, but with a good enough explanation higher Ratings might be accepted (though anything above 4 is unlikely at best)

House Rules:

In addition to normal Karma rewards, you also gain 50% extra Karma, which is limited to learning/improving Knowledge Skills and gaining new Contacts or (with GM's discretion) improving the Loyalty of old ones (within reason; the cost for improving Contacts is the same as for acquring them during character generation, when using Karma) during downtime (you can still gain new Contacts during play, of course).

Knowledge Skills will sometimes be used as a Teamwork Test, granting bonus dice for the actual test. This, generally, does not apply to Combat and Magic Skills, though. But it could be used in a shadowing or a car chase, when you know the area very well, or if you have specific knowledge about maglocks, it might help when trying to disable them. Knowing much about fine cuisine could help with the higher class etiquette.

Pretty much anything, cyberware, bioware, foci, etc, can be improved in Rating during the game, by paying the difference in cost (AV for the "upgrade" is the AV of the higher Rating). You do not have to replace the items completely.

Indirect Combat Spells have their Drain Value reduced by 1. Indirect Elemental Combat Spells have their Drain Value reduced by an additional 1 (total 2).

Overcasting is a lot harsher than normal. The portion of the Force that goes beyond the Magic Rating is not halved (i.e. when you have Magic 3 and cast a Force 6 spell, the F/2 part of the Drain would be 4 (1 for the 3 points up to your Magic Rating and 3 more for the 3 points beyond). You can use the following formula to calculate Drain when overcasting: Force - Magic/2 (round up).

Physical Drain is resisted twice (with the exact same Dice Pool; i.e. if you spend Edge before the roll, you can use the extra dice for both rolls), once dealing physical damage and once dealing stun damage.

Summoning is generally limited to Force Ratings no higher than the summoner's Magic Rating.

Watchers can use the Magic Rating of their summoner, when using the Search Power.

Emotitoys are toys and useless for runners. Emotion Sensor Software is useful, however, but instead of giving its Rating as a dice pool modifier it is used as a Teamwork Test using its Rating (and granting bonus dice equal to the number of hits, limited to the Skill Rating of the skill being used).

The Adrenal Pump increases Attributes beyond the augmented maximum (up to twice the natural maximum). The Drain can be resisted with Body+Willpower.

Contacts can only acquire gear with an Availability as high as 4 times their Connection Rating. This limit applies, if you use your own Negotiation Skill or let the Contact use his or hers.

Contacts usually have an area of specialty (especially Fixers; weapons dealer, electronics fence, etc; the area of specialty should be reasonably specific). When using this specialty, they count their Connection Rating as one point higher than normal.

Bye
Thanee

[Fatum]

Why do you have this stipulation? Does it make it more balanced?

Well otherwise an adept would be able to get two Power Points from one initiation...

That's actually quite nifty. Can the item be Restricted or Forbidden, or is it straight Availability 12? Regardless, yoink!

Well, yeah - while restriction level is supposed to be important, it rarely comes up in our games, so both R and F, too.

I also do this, albeit simply because, IMO, training time adds nothing to the game beyond another layer of bookkeeping that I don't want to bother with.

From the mechanical standpoint, that's the reason for the rule. From the fluff standpoint, there's a justification: when the hacker's spending several hours in a data search, the rest of the team usually has free time on their hands anyway.

[Draco18s]

Well otherwise an adept would be able to get two Power Points from one initiation...

Adept initiates and grabs metamagic. Magic attribute boosted for free.
Net result: special power and 1 power point.

Adept initiates and grabs power point. Magic attribute not raised for free.
Net result: 1 power point.

(That seems totally fair. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) )

It can easily be remedied by not raising magic for free on initiation (look at the cost, magic 4 normally costs 20 karma, first initiation? 11. None of your players are going to spend karma on raising their magic, as it will always be more expensive that initiating, and every time they initiate, that gap grows wider (initiation goes up by 3 every time, magic goes up by 5)).

[Tanegar]

Adept initiates and grabs metamagic. Magic attribute boosted for free.
Net result: special power and 1 power point.

Adept initiates and grabs power point. Magic attribute not raised for free.
Net result: 1 power point.

(That seems totally fair. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) )

It can easily be remedied by not raising magic for free on initiation (look at the cost, magic 4 normally costs 20 karma, first initiation? 11. None of your players are going to spend karma on raising their magic, as it will always be more expensive that initiating, and every time they initiate, that gap grows wider (initiation goes up by 3 every time, magic goes up by 5)).

I'm confused. Where did Fatum say initiation includes a free point of Magic?

[Draco18s]

I'm confused. Where did Fatum say initiation includes a free point of Magic?

Whoops, I misread what his houserule was. No maximum magic.

[Nath]

Characters involved in social interactions can make a Composure Test whenever they want to. Each success remove one dice from any modifier their interlocutor may receive from Kinesics, Empathy Software or situation.

No table for range modifier, it is whatever the GM says it is. Rules of thumbs is, -1/10 meters for pistols, SMG and shotguns, -1/40 meters for assault rifles and LMG, -1/50 meters for HMG, -1/60 meters for hunting and precision rifles and assault canons, divided by 2 if shouldered, 4 if using bipod or tripod.

Random bullets and suppressive fire deal base weapon DV + ammo modifier + 1D6, so that innocent bystanders can get killed sometimes.

Explosions that hit "a vulnerable portion of a target" (they often do) receive the same +4 to DV than a Called Shot would.

Net hits does not add to stun baton, shock gloves, tasers and SNS damage. If the attacker achieves two net hits, and number of boxes taken exceeds Body, the target is knocked down and incapacitated for a number of turns equals to the number of boxes. The number of boxes taken from multiple electrical attacks in a turn and the previous one adds up for both comparison to Body and how long the effect lasts. So it may take more than a shot to get a troll down, but he will get down!
Small caliber SNS probably exist, but my players have yet to see some. Common as shotgun rounds.

Signal decreases with distance. Effective Signal is base Signal minus the Signal needed at that range : ie, full Signal between 0 and 3 meters, -1 between 3 and 40 meters, -2 between 40 and 100 meters, and so on... Effective Signal is used when comparing for Jaming effects.

Skillsofts and Autosofts can be bought with one Specialization for +1,000¥.

Availability for Mind Probe Formulae is not 4R. Try 24F instead. Each spell has a separate Availability code.

[CanRay]

My Houserule Cannon is a 155mm Smoothbore that's used by Lofwyr for skeet shooting.

...

What?

[Tanegar]

My Houserule Cannon is a 155mm Smoothbore that's used by Lofwyr for skeet shooting.

...

What?

How big are the clay pigeons?

[CanRay]

How big are the clay pigeons?

Buicks. A bit of a "Frag You" to Ares. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tanegar]

Does he wield the cannon himself, or is it mounted on a vehicle and/or fixed emplacement?

[Draco18s]

Does he wield the cannon himself, or is it mounted on a vehicle and/or fixed emplacement?

The cooler option, obviously. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

Buicks. A bit of a "Frag You" to Ares. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That's okay. Damien Knight plays Darts with BMWs.

[Draco18s]

That's okay. Damien Knight plays Darts with BMWs.

The things you can do with oodles of money.

[CanRay]

"What the hell are they gambling at there?" "Oh, that's the AAA-Level Pub Games. So far, Lofwyr is head with five Buicks on six launches, while Damien Knight is at 155 Points with BMWs on the dart board." "And Buttercup juggling Nissans?" "Oh, she's just showing off."

[Laodicea]

Availability for Mind Probe Formulae is not 4R. Try 24F instead. Each spell has a separate Availability code.

This is amazing. Why did I never think to give spells an availability at character creation?! I'd put Mind Control at like 30F. Others would be around 20, to require Restricted Gear to take. This would make characters who take the skills to write spells actually worthwhile. It also effectively removes a lot of spells I hate from common play. I love it.

Now I just have to make a list of spells and their availability. Unless you would be kind enough to post yours.

[ravensmuse]

...Look What's In This Pocket houserule: a runner is capable of spending one point of Edge normally to pull out of his pocket any piece of gear that could fit into it, and that costs no more than 500Y with no more than 12 in Availability. It's a rule that's meant to represent the difference between the character competence and player one: while the player might forget to buy a thermite bar, his Int 8 Infiltration 6 shadow is highly unlikely to make such an amateur mistake.

This is an amazing houserule, and I'll be using it as soon as I can.

[Fatum]

Whoops, I misread what his houserule was. No maximum magic.

It's meant to compensate for how little useful metamagic adepts can get.
So you either get a Power Point for the initiation cost, or a metamagic technique and a possibility to spend another massive chunk of Karma to get the Power Point.

[Tanegar]

It's meant to compensate for how little useful metamagic adepts can get.
So you either get a Power Point for the initiation cost and the cost of not raising the Magic cap, or a metamagic technique and a possibility to spend another massive chunk of Karma to get the Power Point.

Fixed. And I'm fuzzy on how that compensates for anything.

[Fatum]

I'm fuzzy on how that compensates for anything.

Simple. Once you take the couple (arguably) useful adept metamagics, you're left with pretty much nothing. So you are forced to pay a massive amount of Karma just for the right to increase your Magic a step. While Magicians get all the cool stuff in addition.

[Tanegar]

Still not seeing it.

Under the optional rule from Street Magic: Annie Adept initiates and takes a Power Point instead of a metamagic. Her maximum Magic goes up, but she still has to pay the normal Attribute rate (New Rating x 5) to increase her actual Magic rating.

Under your rule: Annie Adept initiates and takes a Power Point instead of a metamagic. Her maximum Magic does not go up, and now she is screwed because she's hard up against the cap.

In what specific way does this make up for the lack of metamagic techniques that are useful for adepts? It looks to me like you're just punishing poor Annie for not being a full magician.

[Fatum]

In what specific way does this make up for the lack of metamagic techniques that are useful for adepts? It looks to me like you're just punishing poor Annie for not being a full magician.

Are you even serious? The adept is getting an additional Power Point - the only thing he's getting out of an initiation anyway, - for less than half the price he'd pay for it otherwise. Still not seeing it?

[Halinn]

Are you even serious? The adept is getting an additional Power Point - the only thing he's getting out of an initiation anyway, - for less than half the price he'd pay for it otherwise. Still not seeing it?

The point of contention is probably in comparison with the printed optional rule from Street Magic, where it's just a straight substitution of metamagic -> power point, without losing a point of maximum magic.

[Dolanar]

I think I'm lost as well, normally by the book anytime someone initiates they raise the cap on what their maximum magic can be, so an Adept who has initiated twice who has a magic of 6 can now have a Magic of 8. This is despite taking a meta or PP, the optional rule allows an Adept to swap the typical Metamagic they would normally gain from initiating & use that for a Power point to ultimately double the amount of PP an adept is able to obtain, there is also a cap on initiations equal to your Magic stat so Andre Adept has initiated 6 times with Magic 6 & has12 PP (didn't want any of the Metas) he can no longer initiate until he spends 35 Karma to bring his Magic to 7 then after that he may initiate to 7. Since he has a 6 initiation he may at any point spend the Karma top bring his Magic to 12 as a Maximum until he initiates further.

This is the way it has worked in the base rules as far as I have read & understand...am I missing something?

[Dakka Dakka]

This is the way it has worked in the base rules as far as I have read & understand...am I missing something?

That is correct, except that the power point instead of metamagic technique is optional and not all GMs will allow it. Additionally with those power points you still can't raise any adept power rating above your magic rating. So no Combat Sense 7 etc.

[Dolanar]

Naturally, I also stated it was optional in my post, so I'm trying to understand what the houserule under discussion is really adding for the Adept.

edit: I just went back & reread it, Fatum's houserule weakens an Adept IMO as taking the PP option means that Andre Adept initiates 6 times, he takes 3 Metamagics & 3 PP but under the Houserule in question he only has a Maximum Magic of 9 since he only gains a new Max Magic level whenever he gains a Metamagic.

[Halinn]

Naturally, I also stated it was optional in my post, so I'm trying to understand what the houserule under discussion is really adding for the Adept.

edit: I just went back & reread it, Fatum's houserule weakens an Adept IMO as taking the PP option means that Andre Adept initiates 6 times, he takes 3 Metamagics & 3 PP but under the Houserule in question he only has a Maximum Magic of 9 since he only gains a new Max Magic level whenever he gains a Metamagic.

It's stronger than the baseline adept, but weaker than an adept with the street magic optional rule of taking PPs instead of metamagic.

[Dolanar]

I can sorta see what you mean as its allowing PP use without using the optional rule in the book, but still in the long run it makes an Adept much weaker than a normal Magician & more on Par with kinda a Mystic Adept. (assuming the PP OR is in effect)

A Magician who initiates will ALWAYS gain an increased Max Magic after every initiation (assuming there is no houserule governing their gain) which means that they are always increasing their power as they will gain a Meta & a Max Magic every initiation.

However anytime an Adept wants to actually make THEMSELVES more useful they suffer somewhat as they are limited by their total PP.

I wonder if this effects Mystic Adepts as well, because this could make them even more at a Loss as a common practice if the OR is in use is to make your Mage side go by your Magic & use the Initiation PP to increase your Adept side. If it does not affect Mystic Adepts, it strengthens them over normal Adepts.

[Dakka Dakka]

On the other hand even for adepts there are enough metamagic techniques to last longer than most campaigns go.

[Dolanar]

well that depends on your playstyle, my sniper Adept...I can only think of 2 Metamagics that would be useful (of the ones I've looked at) & one is kinda...overkill with my current pool

[Tanegar]

Are you even serious? The adept is getting an additional Power Point - the only thing he's getting out of an initiation anyway, - for less than half the price he'd pay for it otherwise. Still not seeing it?

In order to make up for a deficiency, you have to give adepts something. You're not giving them anything, you're taking something away. This does not "make up" for anything.

[Halinn]

In order to make up for a deficiency, you have to give adepts something. You're not giving them anything, you're taking something away. This does not "make up" for anything.

He is not taking anything away. By his rules, adepts can still take metamagic, so they do not lose anything there compared to adepts without the use of optional rules. Gaining more options = making something better (assuming those options are not straight up worse than what they replace. A power point in itself is not worse than a metamagic+one maximum point of magic.

[Dolanar]

Halinn is right, its not taking away anything as the part being taken away is purely optional. Is it weaker than the optional rule in question? Yes, Absolutely. But vs a Base adept out of the Core book ONLY? no.

The Houserule in question IS, in my opinion, a little biased against Adepts as it weakens them as a whole vs just using the base optional rule. But, assuming the optional rule is not used, which I'd naturally assume its not, it allows the Adept an option.

Halinn, the Houserule in question IS worse than the optional rule it is essentially replacing, its hard for anyone to NOT compare that HR vs the OR since they both add the option of replacing the lesser useful Metamagics that adepts can take with a PP. however you are right the HR is better than the stock unaugmented Core rule.

[Tanegar]

He is taking something away: the potential to initiate without limit.

Let's go back to Annie Adept. She starts with Magic 4. Over the course of gameplay, Annie initiates twice, taking Adept Centering and Attunement (Item). Her maximum Magic is now 8 (minus any Essence lost to augmentation, but for the sake of simplicity we will ignore this). Annie goes on to initiate two more times, taking a Power Point each time because she doesn't want any of the other metamagic techniques. Her maximum Magic is still 8, and she cannot initiate any more until she raises her actual Magic.

Annie Adept drops 25 Karma to gain Magic 5 and a Power Point. Now she can initiate again... but her maximum Magic is still not going up. Are you beginning to see the problem? Once she hits Magic 8 and eight initiations, she can go no further without taking a (to her) useless metamagic technique.

Yes, Annie now has Magic 8 and 14PP, but her growth as an Awakened character has reached a dead end. She paid for those extra 6PP with a hard cap on how far she can go, on top of the Karma cost of all those initiations. Mickey Mage, on the other hand, has Magic 8, 8 metamagic techniques, and can keep going indefinitely.

[Dolanar]

I understand where you're coming from HOWEVER this is no different than the Stock Adept in a game where the Optional PP rule is NOT used. A stock Adept that initiates without the Optional Rule receives a free Metamagic & his Maximum Magic Score is raised, this is the Core Rule. What the Houserule being mentioned is saying is "The Optional Rule is Not used, Instead, we're modifying the Core Rule, to allow you to use that initiation to better yourself"

Do I agree as to its viability? No, but I'm not using the rule, Fatum's table is, I personally would rather see just the optional rule being used. But perhaps, Fatum has had a problem with super powered Adepts showing up everyone at his table & this Houserule helps reign those types of players/characters in a bit to allow other players to enjoy the game too.

I am not trying to criticize I was simply trying to understand what the Houserule was meant for.

edit: As a sidenote, I hope there is a way to reign in the Mages just as much otherwise the Mages at the table will overpower everyone.

[Fatum]

Halinn, the Houserule in question IS worse than the optional rule it is essentially replacing, its hard for anyone to NOT compare that HR vs the OR since they both add the option of replacing the lesser useful Metamagics that adepts can take with a PP. however you are right the HR is better than the stock unaugmented Core rule.

Yeah, it's worse than the optional rule. But allowing an adept to get two PP per initiation, well, I can't say "is unbalanced" because balance is a meaningless concept in SR, but it just doesn't sound right to me. Having an adept with three initiations and 12 PP? A bit of an overkill, imo.

Yes, Annie now has Magic 8 and 14PP, but her growth as an Awakened character has reached a dead end. She paid for those extra 6PP with a hard cap on how far she can go, on top of the Karma cost of all those initiations. Mickey Mage, on the other hand, has Magic 8, 8 metamagic techniques, and can keep going indefinitely.

Obviously if that ever came up I'd handwave the requirement. It just never did.

[Tanegar]

Obviously if that ever came up I'd handwave the requirement. It just never did.

A rule which requires that kind of handwave is a poorly thought-out rule.

[Dolanar]

Fatum, how are they getting 2 PP per initiation? do you mean getting 1 PP for the initation & 1 potential PP for raising their Magic?

If thats the case may I ask how you handle Mages who have 60 spells? I have an Adept Sniper who has Magic 7 Initiation 3, so he has 10 PP, & that took me a certain amount of Karma to do, however a Mage could have learned 7+ spells for the same Karma it took for me to get those extra 4 PP, an Adept is seriously limited by Karma. if you limit PP gain to Magic only you're basically telling an Adept they have to spend 30+ Karma for maybe 2 abilities meanwhile that 30 karma is 6 spells for a mage.

[FriendoftheDork]

Ok here are some of mine, hope they don't get ignored in the PP debate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Skill groups: Skill groups comes with 1 Specialization for free. Additional ones has normal cost, and max. 1 per skill remains.

Light Pistols: Damage increased by 1. This is mostly to make them somewhat useful.

Physical damage overflow: Instead of 1 extra damage per (Body) combat turns, it is (Body) Minutes. This makes it physically possible to be saved by DocWagon etc while bleeding out, and is slightly more realistic too.

Armor Penetration value: Just like AP cannot reduce armor dice to less than 0, positive AP cannot increase target’s armor to more than double. Thus if wearing Leather Jacket (2/2) and fired upon by buckshot (+2DV/+5AP), the target only recieves 4 dice from armor (2 more than usual).

Tasers and Stick’nShocks : Both have their base damage reduced by 2. Immunity to normal weapons is not affected by the taser/S&S armor piercing, and creatures without a central nervous system is unaffected by Electricity secondary effect.

Fleschette and Buckshot: Flechette has the Damage and AP values of +2DV, +2 AP, resisted by impact armor. It can be used in any firearm, not just shotguns.

Buckshot has the damage and AP values of +2DV, +5 AP, resisted by Impact armor. It has the price and availability of Regular ammo, and can only be used in Shotguns and weapons specifically using shotgun rules (Remington Roomsweeper).

Note that All the weapons listed with Fleschette ammo has incorrect AP values:
Raecor Sting: AP +2
Ares Viper Slivergun: AP+1
Remington Roomsweeper: AP+4
Mossberg AM-CMDT AP +4 (buckshot) or AP +1 (Fleschette)
Remington 990: AP +4(buckshot) or or AP +1 (Fleshette) or AP -1 (slugs).


That's it for now. Other rules are campaign-specific.

[Glyph]

Light Pistols: Damage increased by 1. This is mostly to make them somewhat useful.

That makes light pistols do the same damage code as heavy pistols - the only advantage that heavy pistols have is the -1 AP, which is not really worth the hit to Concealability. Okay if moving the PC's from heavy pistols to light pistols is your intention.

Armor Penetration value: Just like AP cannot reduce armor dice to less than 0, positive AP cannot increase target’s armor to more than double. Thus if wearing Leather Jacket (2/2) and fired upon by buckshot (+2DV/+5AP), the target only recieves 4 dice from armor (2 more than usual).

Fleschette and Buckshot: Flechette has the Damage and AP values of +2DV, +2 AP, resisted by impact armor. It can be used in any firearm, not just shotguns.

Buckshot has the damage and AP values of +2DV, +5 AP, resisted by Impact armor. It has the price and availability of Regular ammo, and can only be used in Shotguns and weapons specifically using shotgun rules (Remington Roomsweeper).

I like these two. It always bugged me a bit that buckshot and flechette were lumped in together price-wise and effectiveness-wise. And the AP one makes sense.

[Fatum]

A rule which requires that kind of handwave is a poorly thought-out rule.

A houserule that requires houseruling is a bad houserule? You don't say.

Fatum, how are they getting 2 PP per initiation? do you mean getting 1 PP for the initation & 1 potential PP for raising their Magic?

Yes - that's exactly what'd make them capable of raising their PP count by 2 per initiation grade.

If thats the case may I ask how you handle Mages who have 60 spells?

In my experience, the measure of a mage's ability is by far not the spell count, but how well those are chosen and used.
A mage can ruin your day with direct combat, illusion or mind-control spells at any time, and he only really needs one of each to do that.

Skill groups: Skill groups comes with 1 Specialization for free. Additional ones has normal cost, and max. 1 per skill remains.

So you not only handwave "no specializations with skill groups", but actually add a spec for free? What's the reasoning?

[ggodo]

Availability for Mind Probe Formulae is not 4R. Try 24F instead. Each spell has a separate Availability code.

This is amazing. Why did I never think to give spells an availability at character creation?! I'd put Mind Control at like 30F. Others would be around 20, to require Restricted Gear to take. This would make characters who take the skills to write spells actually worthwhile. It also effectively removes a lot of spells I hate from common play. I love it.

Now I just have to make a list of spells and their availability. Unless you would be kind enough to post yours.

I too would like to request Nath's list. I dislike Mind Probe.

[FriendoftheDork]

That makes light pistols do the same damage code as heavy pistols - the only advantage that heavy pistols have is the -1 AP, which is not really worth the hit to Concealability. Okay if moving the PC's from heavy pistols to light pistols is your intention.


I like these two. It always bugged me a bit that buckshot and flechette were lumped in together price-wise and effectiveness-wise. And the AP one makes sense.

Heavy Pistols retains it's Armor Penetration, also some have higher base damage. AP -1 may be the difference between life and death for a runner, especially when facing a Spirit. The -2 Concealability mod doesn't do all that much difference against trained eyes, and every runner worth his salt has a concealable holster anyway. At least, in my games and in every game I've played with Light Pistols have been ignored. If you really want a concealable gun you go for a hold-out with Stick&Shock anyway.
SO yes, it's intentional. My NPCs will keep using Heavy pistol against the PCs when appropriate still (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So you not only handwave "no Specializations with Skill Groups", but actually add a spec for free? What's the reasoning?

Why so confrontational? I'm not hand-waving anything, It's a house rule. The reasoning is:
1. Specializations are so powerful that losing access to them is generally not worth it. Players were always splitting up the groups after chargen anyway.
2. If you train excessively with a lot of different weapons you are likely to develop a preference and higher aptitude with one kind. Why can't SEAL teams be Specialized in Automatics just because they have Firearms 6?
3. Skill groups seemed overpriced compared to simply raising the skills you need - Shadowrun already rewards specialization (with lowercase s) too much. This makes it easier to be an all-rounder.
4. Giving skill groups to NPCs makes things easier, and the extra 2 dice really help.

Now, if you only want one skill out of a group, you take the skill. If you want 2 you may already consider getting the third or fourth really cheap. If you wanted 3 you would have gotten it without this house rule anyway, and simply splitting it up to Specialize later.

[Fatum]

Why so confrontational? I'm not hand-waving anything, It's a house rule.

Beg your pardon, never meant it to sound confrontational. Of course it's a houserule, but one I don't understand.
Skill groups are meant to represent generalist knowledge, and already cost less than taking skills individually. Do you really feel that price difference is not sufficient as it is?

1. Specializations are so powerful that losing access to them is generally not worth it. Players were always splitting up the groups after chargen anyway.

Have you considered just letting them split them up on chargen?

2. If you train excessively with a lot of different weapons you are likely to develop a preference and higher aptitude with one kind. Why can't SEAL teams be Specialized in Automatics just because they have Firearms 6?
4. Giving skill groups to NPCs makes things easier, and the extra 2 dice really help.

Wait, you not only use player character creation rules for NPCs, but you don't break up their skill groups at creation either? Why? Do you use mathematically precise approach, with the BP you spend per NPC strictly limited?

3. Skill groups seemed overpriced compared to simply raising the skills you need - Shadowrun already rewards specialization (with lowercase s) too much. This makes it easier to be an all-rounder.

I am not sure getting four skills for the price of two and a half is all that overpriced, but that is a matter of taste of course.

[Nath]

Sorry, I have yet to write down a list. I came up with that rule only after the current PC were created (previously, it just was a yes/no at chargen). So far, I decided Availability on the fly whenever a player asked for a particular spell.
Spells that threaten public safety (Invisibility, Mask, Levitate, Ignite...) have been 8R. Combat spells stood at 8F (as per the rules). Spells that can threaten national security (Mind Probe, Control Thoughts, Control Actions) are 24F. Basically, if you find such formula, the guy selling it is a rogue CIA agent or something like that.

I did not want to forbid many spells at chargen, but the use of the Restricted Gear quality for spell that would have Availability in the 9-20 range is an interesting idea. It would force player to make an extra effort to have ubiquitous spells like Invisibility at chargen. But it's not going to be popular with those who play mages I guess.

[FriendoftheDork]

Beg your pardon, never meant it to sound confrontational. Of course it's a houserule, but one I don't understand.
Skill groups are meant to represent generalist knowledge, and already cost less than taking skills individually. Do you really feel that price difference is not sufficient as it is?

Have you considered just letting them split them up on chargen?

Wait, you not only use player character creation rules for NPCs, but you don't break up their skill groups at creation either? Why? Do you use mathematically precise approach, with the BP you spend per NPC strictly limited?

I am not sure getting four skills for the price of two and a half is all that overpriced, but that is a matter of taste of course.

Alright. The price difference would be sufficient if you could get all useful skills in one group, but quite often you are "dumped" a less useful skill into the group. And some skill groups only have 3 skills anyway.

Now, as it seems you let them split them at chargen, why not just let them keep their group and their specialization(s)?

Also, I think you misunderstood: I Don't generally use PC chargen rules for NPCs, I usually assign points wherever I see fit. And it really speeds it up by taking skill groups when appropriate. Gangers? Close Combat group fits nicely, and the added specialization means they won't lose out any because of it either. The premade Mooks in the book has skill groups, and I can't really see why they would give up 2 dice like that.

I think skill groups are wonky in the first place of course. At character creation it makes sense to invest in some initially, then break them up right away. By RAW you can't reassemble it, so after chargen you are basically simply improving whatever skill you need the most. If it was just a chargen tool, there wouldn't be karma costs for it though. So it is assumed silly character such as the Weapons "Specialist" keep improving these hugely expensive groups and still miss out on specialization. The only skill group I routinely take for my chars is the Influence group, where 3/4 skills are very useful for their category. You only really need 1 melee skill tho, and you can make do with Automatics, and maybe pistols alone. It might seem like a bargain for 3 skill for the cost of 2.5 the cost of one, but not at lower skill levels with specialization. I'd rather have Automatics 4, Pistols 3 and Longarms 2, all with each own specialization (50 karma) than Firearms 4 (55 karma). Each of these skills gives as many dice as just having the skill group or more. And yes, you CAN usually stick to your specialization fairly easily. Semi-Auto? SMGs or ARs?) Sniper Rifles? Yes please.

Now, you can get all of these guns, don't have to fuzz about getting the best of them to mod to heck, with less bookkeeping and slightly more karma. I used to consider simply removing Specializations, but decided to do this instead.

Now you may not understand the need for this, but do you think it will be unbalanced somehow? Will single skills stop being attractive? I think not.

[Makki]

Sorry, I have yet to write down a list. I came up with that rule only after the current PC were created (previously, it just was a yes/no at chargen). So far, I decided Availability on the fly whenever a player asked for a particular spell.
Spells that threaten public safety (Invisibility, Mask, Levitate, Ignite...) have been 8R. Combat spells stood at 8F (as per the rules). Spells that can threaten national security (Mind Probe, Control Thoughts, Control Actions) are 24F. Basically, if you find such formula, the guy selling it is a rogue CIA agent or something like that.

I did not want to forbid many spells at chargen, but the use of the Restricted Gear quality for spell that would have Availability in the 9-20 range is an interesting idea. It would force player to make an extra effort to have ubiquitous spells like Invisibility at chargen. But it's not going to be popular with those who play mages I guess.

I do play Awakened almost exclusively, and I like the idea very much!

[Dakka Dakka]

Spells that threaten public safety (Invisibility, Mask, Levitate, Ignite...) have been 8R. Combat spells stood at 8F (as per the rules). Spells that can threaten national security (Mind Probe, Control Thoughts, Control Actions) are 24F. Basically, if you find such formula, the guy selling it is a rogue CIA agent or something like that.

I don't think that fits well with the fluff. Especially at the beginning of the 6th many magicians had to be self-taught, and few of them would have been in the intelligence services. So the information is out there. I agree that a lot of spells should be forbidden to be sold and the punishment should be severe for buying or selling them, but they should not be harder to get just because they are more of a head-ache for the GM.

@Not all spells at Char Gen: This sounds pretty much just like a BP tax. Either the mage has to invest in the Arcana skill and then be out of the game to research the useful spells himself or he has to pay 8BP instead of 3 BP and can get a maximum of three such spells. Alternately he could spend the BP on a Black Market Pipeline and never have to worry. If you don't want some spells in your game just tell your players beforehand and they can decide whether they want to play in your game.

[Marwynn]

- Halve Essence Costs for all cyberlimb-related 'ware. We get far more interesting characters this way, I actually used a cyberweapon.
- Essence can be regenerated by spending Karma. Magic/Resonance is not recovered.
- SnS deals Stun (E) damage equivalent to the weapon it is being fired from. The primary advantage is range compared to tasers.
- Grenades don't suck.
- Battle Rifles have AR ranges and retain their damage codes. They're Full Auto, uncompensated recoil is doubled.
- Skill Groups can have one specialized skill at chargen. It just makes sense: if you have the Influence Skill Group you're still bound to be a better Liar/Negotiator/etc.


SPELLS
We're treating spells a bit more like Programs. They degrade and they can have options. You don't expend Karma to update Spells (and it's all or nothing), just a bit of nuyen perhaps or a lot of time meditating. Penalty is they become easier to Counterspell.

Spell Options include stuff like: Cast at 1 Force higher than normal max without suffering Physical Drain. +1 Dice on Multi-Cast, etc. These options cost nuyen instead of Karma. Spells don't have to be re-learned either with these new options, just added on to it via the monthly update. That is, as long as you have Arcana.

Oh, and Arcana uses your Tradition's second drain attribute.


Despite all this, our games are traditionally "low power" games.

[Draco18s]

- Grenades don't suck.

Meaning?

[Spells] degrade

Whut.

[Marwynn]

Grenades (Thrown): Less bounce, much more accurate. I don't have the rules on me, but with just 1-2 hits you can get pretty good results. Of course, this is for the damaging grenades. The smoke/gas stuff just gets even better by being more accurate.

Spell Degradation
The thinking behind it is that Spellcasters are all pretty in tune with the manasphere. So the more a spell is used, the more common it becomes in their "general awareness". Wagemages and Street Mages sling a lot of spells, so they gotta stay more current.

If a Mage doesn't update his spells that month by burning up some telesma or spending some time meditating or whatever's traditionally appropriate, then his Spells are treated as being 1 Force lower for Counterspell purposes (including for any Spell Barriers, etc) for each level of degradation.

It's a nuyen sink, basically. But only Runners can afford to regularly burn telesma to keep their stuff up-to-date.

[Bearclaw]

I think a lot of arguments about adepts and initiating would be fixed if the concept of a "power point" was done away with. At my table there is no "buying a power point", there is "raising your magic attribute". With a magic attribute of x, you can buy x points worth of powers.

So, when ANY magical character initiates, at my table, they:
1. Increase their maximum magic attribute by 1 point.
2. Either
a) learn a metamagic feat, or
b) get a point added to their magic attribute.

No problem, no confusion.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think a lot of arguments about adepts and initiating would be fixed if the concept of a "power point" was done away with. At my table there is no "buying a power point", there is "raising your magic attribute". With a magic attribute of x, you can buy x points worth of powers.

So, when ANY magical character initiates, at my table, they:
1. Increase their maximum magic attribute by 1 point.
2. Either
a) learn a metamagic feat, or
b) get a point added to their magic attribute.

No problem, no confusion.

You don't have to actually purchase that Magic Point? Wow...

[ravensmuse]

- Halve Essence Costs for all cyberlimb-related 'ware. We get far more interesting characters this way, I actually used a cyberweapon.

I was thinking of doing this myself, after I started building a hacker with double cyber-arms and wires and discovered just how "ouch" the Essence costs could be. I realize that thematic element to it, but still, ouch!

- Grenades don't suck.

I'll admit, this cracked me up.

Oh, and Arcana uses your Tradition's second drain attribute.

This I really dig.

I'm getting all sorts of really good houserules from this thread.

[Thanee]

2. Either
a) learn a metamagic feat, or
b) get a point added to their magic attribute.

Yeah, why not make those mages even more powerful! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Bearclaw]

So far, the things that break the game are still drones, wired reflexes, and sustaining foci, specifically sustaining increase reflexes. Not letting the mage add a couple of extra dice to his magic skills.
This is at my table of course, YMMV.

[lorechaser]

I don't think that fits well with the fluff. Especially at the beginning of the 6th many magicians had to be self-taught, and few of them would have been in the intelligence services. So the information is out there. I agree that a lot of spells should be forbidden to be sold and the punishment should be severe for buying or selling them, but they should not be harder to get just because they are more of a head-ache for the GM.

@Not all spells at Char Gen: This sounds pretty much just like a BP tax. Either the mage has to invest in the Arcana skill and then be out of the game to research the useful spells himself or he has to pay 8BP instead of 3 BP and can get a maximum of three such spells. Alternately he could spend the BP on a Black Market Pipeline and never have to worry. If you don't want some spells in your game just tell your players beforehand and they can decide whether they want to play in your game.

@Not all weapons at Char Gen: This sounds pretty much just like a BP tax. Either the Sam has to invest in the Armorer skill and then be out of the game to make the useful weapons himself or he has to pay extra BP for the weapon, and can get a maximum of three such weapons. Alternatively he could spend the BP on a Black Market Pipeline and never have to worry. If you don't want some weapons in your game just tell your players beforehand and they can decide whether they want to play in your game.

Re: Harder to get - same as above. Why is it harder to get a Full Auto LMG than a Predator? Because the Full Auto LMG has more restrictions on it based on the danger. I can't imagine a government is going to regulate guns down to the model and firing type, but allow any and all spells to have the same level of availability and legality.

Tl;dr: Great rule!

[Tanegar]

So far, the things that break the game are still drones, wired reflexes, and sustaining foci, specifically sustaining increase reflexes. Not letting the mage add a couple of extra dice to his magic skills.
This is at my table of course, YMMV.

Wired reflexes? Really? When the whole combat system is structured around having multiple passes, wired reflexes break the game?

[Dakka Dakka]

@Not all weapons at Char Gen: This sounds pretty much just like a BP tax. Either the Sam has to invest in the Armorer skill and then be out of the game to make the useful weapons himself or he has to pay extra BP for the weapon, and can get a maximum of three such weapons. Alternatively he could spend the BP on a Black Market Pipeline and never have to worry. If you don't want some weapons in your game just tell your players beforehand and they can decide whether they want to play in your game.

Re: Harder to get - same as above. Why is it harder to get a Full Auto LMG than a Predator? Because the Full Auto LMG has more restrictions on it based on the danger. I can't imagine a government is going to regulate guns down to the model and firing type, but allow any and all spells to have the same level of availability and legality.

The difference between spells and military hardware however is that spell formulae can be written down and copied on any sheet of paper*. A picture of such paper could even be distributed via the matrix. Military hardware on the other hand has to be produced, bought or stolen. The relative rarity of the item is responible for the number before the legality letter

* I know that not all traditions would find a sheet of paper an appropriate medium for a spell formula but what is appropriate varies by tradition not by spell. So spell formulae for certain traditions could be more difficult to (re)produce but not certain spells within the same tradition.

[Nath]

I don't think that fits well with the fluff. Especially at the beginning of the 6th many magicians had to be self-taught, and few of them would have been in the intelligence services. So the information is out there. I agree that a lot of spells should be forbidden to be sold and the punishment should be severe for buying or selling them, but they should not be harder to get just because they are more of a head-ache for the GM.

Usually, the fact that something is forbidden to be sold, and the punishment for buying or selling it is severe, does make it harder to get, fluff-wise.

My problem is spells like Mind Probe and Control Thought do not fit well with the fluff either. They're a headache for a gamemaster that tries to tell most any story of espionage black ops. That is, the very thing the game is about. I don't see why Johnson would waste their time and money on street sams, adepts and hackers, except as bodyguards for the mages who know Mind Probe, Control Thoughts and Influence and complete all missions by himself. And there should no such thing as meeting the Johnson face to face either. I don't see how any mage could be allowed in a 20 miles radius around the Washington Mall and the Pentagon and any other sensitive building if anybody could learn those spells.

I'm not saying it's impossible. There's the Arcana skill and spirit mentors and all that. I'm saying people are not going to openly teach or sell it. It can be printed on a sheet of paper. So do the schematics for a nuke or the formulae for chemical weapons. Sell those on a website and see what happens (actually, nothing you would notice for a while, and that's precisely the point...).

Regarding the beginning of the Sixth World, the fluff does not say the entire spells list of the 1st edition was available to any mages in 2011. Daniel Coleman only cast Armor and Ram or something similar when he escaped Abilene. To us, Arcana is just modifiers, thresholds and rolling dice, but maybe totems and immortals refused for a long time to teach the Mind Probe spell, and it took decades before someone actually designed and teach it before FBI or corporate security stormed his labs.

@Not all spells at Char Gen: This sounds pretty much just like a BP tax. Either the mage has to invest in the Arcana skill and then be out of the game to research the useful spells himself or he has to pay 8BP instead of 3 BP and can get a maximum of three such spells. Alternately he could spend the BP on a Black Market Pipeline and never have to worry. If you don't want some spells in your game just tell your players beforehand and they can decide whether they want to play in your game.

Well, the character creation system is all but BP tax. Positive and negative qualities have a cost solely based on how useful or detrimental they are. Contacts cost depends on Loyalty and Influence. Skills cost depends on whether they're considered as active or knowledge, and their range varies greatly: cost is the same between Running or Pilot Aircraft (actually Pilot Every-Godamn-Aircraft-In-The-Creation). Spells, on the other hand, all have the same exact cost. Makeup costs the same than Invisibility.

Introducing a houserule and an actual cost would allow a player who wants to play a ninja-trained mage to have Invisibility and Levitate, but at a higher cost than his teammate who wants to play a explosive ordnance disposal mage with Magic Fingers and Analyze Device. The first is going to get advantage of his spell a lot more often than the later, much like Running versus Pilot Aircraft.

At which point people should start arguing that SR is made for optimization and that pussies shouldn't get a discount for being weak and silly things as "character concept."

[Fatum]

Minding that most initial magic research was done by the shamans of an anti-government group, do you really think there are old spells whose formulae haven't leaked into the Matrix? Or that anyone is capable of suppressing the info that has already leaked?
Rules-wise, I like the rule, or at least the intention behind it. Fluff-wise, eh, it's not that great.

I'm not saying it's impossible. There's the Arcana skill and spirit mentors and all that. I'm saying people are not going to openly teach or sell it. It can be printed on a sheet of paper. So do the schematics for a nuke or the formulae for chemical weapons. Sell those on a website and see what happens (actually, nothing you would notice for a while, and that's precisely the point...).

Nothing happens. Hell, go to Darknet, there's CP in HD on their imageboard mainpages, and nothing's happening to them.

[Jareth Valar]

I allow extra specializations.

Skill 1-3 = 1
skill 4-6 = 2
Skill 7 = 3

More when I have more time to post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

I allow extra specializations.

Do they stack? For example SCUBA diving in caves with specializations SCUBA and cave diving.

[Jareth Valar]

Do they stack? For example SCUBA diving in caves with specializations SCUBA and cave diving.

Never come up before, but I would probably say use the most appropriate spec. No double dipping. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Bearclaw]

Wired reflexes? Really? When the whole combat system is structured around having multiple passes, wired reflexes break the game?

Only in that most of the mooks don't have it. And if any of the players don't have it, they end up waiting 20 minutes before they get another turn. It doesn't make it unplayable, but it makes it so everyone has to have some type of initiative booster if they want to play. It's been a problem since 1st edition. Not really much to do about it. Even the silly "everyone goes on the first pass" rule just makes sure that the non-boosted get 1 action before they're forgotten about.

[Marwynn]

I was thinking of doing this myself, after I started building a hacker with double cyber-arms and wires and discovered just how "ouch" the Essence costs could be. I realize that thematic element to it, but still, ouch!

I'm getting all sorts of really good houserules from this thread.

Yeah, good thread for getting ideas. Now, to con my GM into implementing some of them. Uhh, I mean convince...

Oh, and I should add that we halved some of the capacity costs of some cyberlimb stuff, namely some of the weapons. The Essence costs do get a little crazy, especially when a cyberlimb doesn't really add that much to a character (power wise) compared to other options.

Another rule I have in the proposal stage, chrome heavy too, is to allow Alphaware and higher Cyberlimbs to come "precustomized" to their owner's attributes. Saves some nuyen.

[Dakka Dakka]

Never come up before, but I would probably say use the most appropriate spec. No double dipping. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Why? Specializations are situational dice pool modifiers. If both conditions are met both dice pool modifiers should be applicable. Normally the same person cannot meet both (or several) conditions at the same time, but your houserule opened that possibility. If you don't want that, you would need an additional houserule.

The problem is there are different types of specializations. Some require the use of certain equipment (assault rifles, SCUBA etc.) others reference a task (HALO jump, cave diving, by spell category etc.) or a position (Urban, by terrain type etc.). More than one equipment based specialization nearly never applies to one test (there are semi-automatic hold-outs though), but they can sometimes be combined with one of the other two types. It depends on the skill in question and the available Specializations. It gets even more complicated if you allow non published specializations (which is a popular houserule).

[Dolanar]

Actually "non-publishes" specialties are meant to be if I recall the wording of the core book correctly, I believe the core rules encourage players to divert from published specialties saying "these are only a few of the options for specialization" or something to that extent.

[X-Kalibur]

Only in that most of the mooks don't have it. And if any of the players don't have it, they end up waiting 20 minutes before they get another turn. It doesn't make it unplayable, but it makes it so everyone has to have some type of initiative booster if they want to play. It's been a problem since 1st edition. Not really much to do about it. Even the silly "everyone goes on the first pass" rule just makes sure that the non-boosted get 1 action before they're forgotten about.

So you're saying that it's broken from the point of view that PLAYERS who don't have more than 1 IP get the shaft? Yes? Because mooks don't usually have multiple passes by virtue of just outnumbering the players. Also, not all players need multiple meat passes. The rigger can jump in (cold for 2, hot for 3 (or more)) passes, the hacker won't generally be contributing a major amount directly in combat, but can be running the TacNet for the team and attempting to scramble their communication and possibly hacking something to give them penalties. You're looking at it too narrow mindedly.

[Fatum]

Only in that most of the mooks don't have it. And if any of the players don't have it, they end up waiting 20 minutes before they get another turn. It doesn't make it unplayable, but it makes it so everyone has to have some type of initiative booster if they want to play. It's been a problem since 1st edition. Not really much to do about it. Even the silly "everyone goes on the first pass" rule just makes sure that the non-boosted get 1 action before they're forgotten about.

Having large a IP count is as much a prerequisite for being efficient in combat as having decent combat pools or guns.
Why is the need to have combat skills and equipment (some of which gets pretty expensive) not a problem, but having a way to increase your IP is one?
I agree that the IP system is not perfect, and it does raise a few problems of its own, but the problem with mooks not having enough actions is not one of them. For Marx's sake, if it troubles you, just give your mooks IP boosters, why not. You're the GM, it's your world to play with, and unless your players use something like the pregens for the characters, there's precious little reason to stick to pregen opponents as they are as well.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Only in that most of the mooks don't have it. And if any of the players don't have it, they end up waiting 20 minutes before they get another turn. It doesn't make it unplayable, but it makes it so everyone has to have some type of initiative booster if they want to play. It's been a problem since 1st edition. Not really much to do about it. Even the silly "everyone goes on the first pass" rule just makes sure that the non-boosted get 1 action before they're forgotten about.

It takes you twenty minutes to process a single turn? Really? Mayhaps you are doing something very odd here.
I think the longest turn for us is about 2-3 Minutes or so. *shrug*

Besides, Drugs are cheap for mooks... *shrug*

[Fatum]

It takes me about as much to process a 4 IP turn as well, but we're playing over IRC, so it's naturally slower.

[Jareth Valar]

Why? Specializations are situational dice pool modifiers. If both conditions are met both dice pool modifiers should be applicable. Normally the same person cannot meet both (or several) conditions at the same time, but your houserule opened that possibility. If you don't want that, you would need an additional houserule.

The problem is there are different types of specializations. Some require the use of certain equipment (assault rifles, SCUBA etc.) others reference a task (HALO jump, cave diving, by spell category etc.) or a position (Urban, by terrain type etc.). More than one equipment based specialization nearly never applies to one test (there are semi-automatic hold-outs though), but they can sometimes be combined with one of the other two types. It depends on the skill in question and the available Specializations. It gets even more complicated if you allow non published specializations (which is a popular houserule).

Valid points. After thinking about it on my trip today, I see no reason why not either.

LOL, with my job and all my typical first response is almost always NO to a request. Once I look at the options/rules, I tend to be pretty open minded. If I'm starting to do that in my game...I need a vacation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[lorechaser]

The difference between spells and military hardware however is that spell formulae can be written down and copied on any sheet of paper*. A picture of such paper could even be distributed via the matrix. Military hardware on the other hand has to be produced, bought or stolen. The relative rarity of the item is responible for the number before the legality letter

* I know that not all traditions would find a sheet of paper an appropriate medium for a spell formula but what is appropriate varies by tradition not by spell. So spell formulae for certain traditions could be more difficult to (re)produce but not certain spells within the same tradition.

Rankings aren't just the literal difficulty, though. I mean, any armorer can make a gun. Any hacker can make any program. Everything is made by someone. And there's not that much difference between making, say, a sport rifle and an assault rifle. But they have different AVs.

Just because you *can* write it down doesn't mean people are going to. If it's highly illegal, and the penalties for doing so are heinous, then it's going to be high availability and forbidden.

In our world, at this moment, 3D printers can, with the right blueprints, print and assemble all the parts for a gun. But there are rules and restrictions around it that mean people won't generally do so.

Also, I hate to do it, but - game balance. We hand wave enough stuff in SR under the twin banners of "cool" and "balance."

The upside to that rule is that a runner who *has* learned it may well decide they don't care about the rules governing it, and start scribing it like mad, making tons of money.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It takes me about as much to process a 4 IP turn as well, but we're playing over IRC, so it's naturally slower.

Ahhh... That makes more sense... Got it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Nath]

Minding that most initial magic research was done by the shamans of an anti-government group, do you really think there are old spells whose formulae haven't leaked into the Matrix? Or that anyone is capable of suppressing the info that has already leaked?
Rules-wise, I like the rule, or at least the intention behind it. Fluff-wise, eh, it's not that great.

As far as fluff goes, Native American Nations Volume 1 actually says SAIM veterans were still keeping some techniques secret in 2050. As a warring faction between 2011 and 2017, the SAIM only edge over the US government was magic, and it still was after 2017 when they became a government, with US as hostile neighbours. Publishing anything on the Internet would only have helped the US and weakened the SAIM, while being quite useless to shamans who could have much more secure meeting places in the astral space.

And again, fluff does not say what "old spells" are. Coleman used Armor and Ram to escape, while casting Mass Control Thoughts or Actions on the guards would have been a much better plan. Spirits powers probably gave the bulk of the SAIM magical support. The Truth Dancers may not have had more than Analyze Truth to work with.

Fluff says a bunch of megacorporations staff and fund labs searching for new spell formulaes. It somehow implies the entire catalog wasn't designed between 2011 and 2017, and quite a number of spells have been at a later date.

[Fatum]

Fine then; there are still ways to research or be taught any spell you like, and minding the number of magicians in the world (millions of capable ones, give or take), it's hard to wrap my mind around the idea that they haven't uploaded everything there is to be uploaded already. Look at the Internet: you can't teach yourself to brew explosives or drugs or what have you without massive experiment costs, but the Internet has all the recipes.

[Draco18s]

Fine then; there are still ways to research or be taught any spell you like, and minding the number of magicians in the world (millions of capable ones, give or take), it's hard to wrap my mind around the idea that they haven't uploaded everything there is to be uploaded already. Look at the Internet: you can't teach yourself to brew explosives or drugs or what have you without massive experiment costs, but the Internet has all the recipes.

Reimagine the internet where there is no free speech and where illegal information is hit with a very fast denial of service / takedown.

There's a damn good reason ShadowLand BBS nodes were always transient.

[Fatum]

Data Havens have everything up to top-secret corp research data (...rumours).

[Draco18s]

Data Havens have everything up to top-secret corp research data (...rumours).

Oh sure. There are data havens.

But getting into them is hard.

Which, I do believe, raises the availability number on anything they contain....

[Fatum]

To 24F? Data Search tests find anything in the Matrix in but a few hours!

[FriendoftheDork]

It takes you twenty minutes to process a single turn? Really? Mayhaps you are doing something very odd here.
I think the longest turn for us is about 2-3 Minutes or so. *shrug*

Besides, Drugs are cheap for mooks... *shrug*

You use an average of 5 seconds per player per pass? Thats extremely fast, even if most of them only say "Im running over there" and points on a map.

For someone asking the GM a question, firing a gun or casting a spell, computing results, GM rolls defense, GM rolls soaks and notes damage. Repeat last parts if SA or burst. This generally takes at least 30 seconds in my game, even if the player is efficient.

20 minutes for a single turn? Sure, if there is alot of characters with multiple IPs, questions for the GM, and maybe checking a rule or table or two.

The combat we had last time (6 gangers with 2 cars, 2 PCs with 2 IPs and 1 car) took 1.5 hours, and probably lasted 4-5 rounds.

This is basically the minimalistic combat, where none of the gangers had multiple IPs, only 2 PCs were present (only having 2 IPs due to drugs), no magic, cyberware or hacking.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You use an average of 5 seconds per player per pass? Thats extremely fast, even if most of them only say "Im running over there" and points on a map.

For someone asking the GM a question, firing a gun or casting a spell, computing results, GM rolls defense, GM rolls soaks and notes damage. Repeat last parts if SA or burst. This generally takes at least 30 seconds in my game, even if the player is efficient.

20 minutes for a single turn? Sure, if there is alot of characters with multiple IPs, questions for the GM, and maybe checking a rule or table or two.

The combat we had last time (6 gangers with 2 cars, 2 PCs with 2 IPs and 1 car) took 1.5 hours, and probably lasted 4-5 rounds.

This is basically the minimalistic combat, where none of the gangers had multiple IPs, only 2 PCs were present (only having 2 IPs due to drugs), no magic, cyberware or hacking.

How many players do you have? We have 3-4 players in any given situation. Most of our combats are over in a couple of turns. Say 5-15 minutes at most (for a Really long Combat). Only on rare occasions do we go over 15 minutes for a combat sequence (we have had one or two with close to an hour, but that was with Many, Many opponents with many, many iterations of 3-4 Passes). Though it has happened. Note that I said Sequence, too. Some sessions contain 6-10 such sequences depending upon the circumstances, though not all of them are guns blazing. Quiet takedown for the win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Using your numbers... 30 Seconds for the PC's is 1.5 to 2 Minutes per pass, Most of our combats are over in 2-3 passes (4.5-6 Minutes - so 9-12 Minutes with equal opponents). And currently, the highest pass initiative is 3 (1 Player) with the others haveing 1 (or two with a Drug Boost). Like I said, most of our combat sets are over in less than 15 minutes.

[Draco18s]

To 24F? Data Search tests find anything in the Matrix in but a few hours!

F just means you can't have a license for it, and has no bearing.
24 means that it takes a certain time interval to find (which ends up being more directly related to the cost of the item, not it's availability*).

And Data Searches specifically cannot find sequestered information.

Some information is protected
and kept secret, stored in a node that is not accessible from the
Matrix, and so cannot be found without accessing the nodes on which
the data is hidden, although a Data Search might be made to find the
location of the information.

Followed by a nice table.

matrix search table
information is:.....Threshold
General Knowledge or Public.....6
Limited Interest or Not Publicized.....12
Hidden or Actively Hunted and Erased.....24
Protected or Secret.....n/a

I'd say a highly illegal spell would fall into "hidden or actively hunted and erased." And would qualify as at least "intricate or specialized" if not "obscure."

And with an interval of 1 minute for searching "the entire matrix" that gives us...(Data Search + Browse) - 1 extended test (24, 1 minute).

I don't know about you, but a threshold of 24 is pretty high for maximum 11 dice (no specialization). Definitely not a "sure thing" On average those 11 rolls (with the -1 per roll rule) will get 22 hits.

The average starting runner is not likely to have a comlink with a system/response of 6/6 and a 6 in data search and a rating 6 browse program.

Let's be more reasonable, for a non-hacker mage. A 4 data search skill and a 3/3 system. That gives 7 dice, (9 with specialization**).

9 (15) hits on average.

And even then that will likely only tell you where the information is, not the information itself.

*A $100 item with a rating 24F can be located in as little as 12 hours (though will either succeed or fail by the end of the 6th day; and you can pump up to 2.5 times the cost into extra dice: pay 350% get 10 more dice, expediting the process (even defaulting on a Charisma of 3 and buying the extra dice, you have a better than 50-50 odds of success, on average getting the item on day 5)), but a $10,001 item with an availability of 1 takes a minimum of a week.

**Even this is pushing the believability of "non-hacker."

[Fatum]

It's either "secret and hidden" or "Hidden or Actively Hunted and Erased". So you're getting the info, not the node location. Secret and hidden is stuff like top secret corp plans, research data and that.
Without the -1 per roll rule, which is optional, you're getting your formula, as I said, in but a few hours even as a non-specialist - but if you're a part of a competent team, you're very likely to have said specialist.

[lorechaser]

It's either "secret and hidden" or "Hidden or Actively Hunted and Erased". So you're getting the info, not the node location. Secret and hidden is stuff like top secret corp plans, research data and that.
Without the -1 per roll rule, which is optional, you're getting your formula, as I said, in but a few hours even as a non-specialist - but if you're a part of a competent team, you're very likely to have said specialist.

The corps and the governments have done those same searches, and are watching those formulas. If you use them, you'll find that someone is now actively tracing you. And now it's a thing. So you have to get more discreet locations, which are harder to find. Those have IC on them, or the like. Now they're protected or secret, and you can't even access them.

Plus, there are an ass ton of slightly modified formulas that *look* like Mind Probe, but are actually Mind Erase (Self).

Also, those searches for explosives and the like done today? Run them in Singapore, China, even Germany. They don't come up so easily.

[FriendoftheDork]

How many players do you have? We have 3-4 players in any given situation. Most of our combats are over in a couple of turns. Say 5-15 minutes at most (for a Really long Combat). Only on rare occasions do we go over 15 minutes for a combat sequence (we have had one or two with close to an hour, but that was with Many, Many opponents with many, many iterations of 3-4 Passes). Though it has happened. Note that I said Sequence, too. Some sessions contain 6-10 such sequences depending upon the circumstances, though not all of them are guns blazing. Quiet takedown for the win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Using your numbers... 30 Seconds for the PC's is 1.5 to 2 Minutes per pass, Most of our combats are over in 2-3 passes (4.5-6 Minutes - so 9-12 Minutes with equal opponents). And currently, the highest pass initiative is 3 (1 Player) with the others haveing 1 (or two with a Drug Boost). Like I said, most of our combat sets are over in less than 15 minutes.

You should tape a session or something (Big Brother simulation) so we can hear how efficient you are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And yes im used to many opponents and initative passes, I hardly call sniping or tasing one lone guard a "combat", even if it uses combat rules. Im talking about the real fights that lasts at least 3-4 passes or more.

We had a long combat which actually lasted close to 30 seconds in game... it was a brawl against orks, using improvised weapons, unarmed, bats etc. (all with 1 IP). Must have been at around 10 rounds. Think that lasted more than 1 hour at least.

[Draco18s]

It's either "secret and hidden" or "Hidden or Actively Hunted and Erased".

Uh. No. Data that is actively hunted and erased would keep it from being public knowledge. So any publicly accessible locations would need to be secret and hidden. Because it if was known about, then it'd get erased.

Or we can skip strait to "protected and secret: N/A" and be done with it. Congratulations, it's on the matrix, but no one can ever find it. Mission Success: 24F valid.

[Fatum]

The corps and the governments have done those same searches, and are watching those formulas. If you use them, you'll find that someone is now actively tracing you. And now it's a thing. So you have to get more discreet locations, which are harder to find. Those have IC on them, or the like. Now they're protected or secret, and you can't even access them.

Plus, there are an ass ton of slightly modified formulas that *look* like Mind Probe, but are actually Mind Erase (Self).

I can think of such "justifications" for any way to punish the players and limit their options.
That doesn't mean that sits well with the RAW or fluff, for that matter, too. Or adds anything to the game experience.

Uh. No. Data that is actively hunted and erased would keep it from being public knowledge. So any publicly accessible locations would need to be secret and hidden. Because it if was known about, then it'd get erased.

Or we can skip strait to "protected and secret: N/A" and be done with it. Congratulations, it's on the matrix, but no one can ever find it. Mission Success: 24F valid.

So in your classification that "Actively hunted and erased" category does not exist at all? Good going, what else can I say.

[Draco18s]

So in your classification that "Actively hunted and erased" category does not exist at all? Good going, what else can I say.

Nice, twisting my words. Awesome.

What I said was, things can be both. There are some things that will be one or the other, but that the categorizations are not mutually exclusive.