I'm wondering what houserules you all have canonized for use in the majority of games you run or play in. You can feel free to argue about the efficacy of other peoples houserules, but I don't think that's really the point. I'm mostly here to learn how other people are playing, and adapt it for my games.
Here's mine:
Some of these are more clarifications of controversial rules than outright houserules, but I'm fine with them falling into the houserules category.
In-Debt: does not grant you the Nuyen to use. You simply owe that much Nuyen.
Summoning: I think it's too strong. I limit it severely. You can have a maximum of 1 bound spirit, 1 un-bound spirit, and 1 watcher spirit. This rule doesn't necessarily apply to powerful NPCs. This rule applies equally to Technomancers. Alternatively, I've considered making Summoners spend 1 edge per day per bound spirit. That would simply make people optimize their AngelSummoner build for edge, though. But, at least it would be edge they couldn't use for edge's intended purpose.
No PC Pixies.
Free Spirit PCs: There's basically two schools of thought for interpreting Free Spirit RAW. One makes them underpowered and one makes them overpowered. I use the underpowered interpretation.
Stick N Shock Ammo: Does not exist. The shotgun round equivalent does.
Immunity To Normal Weapons: People have argued that elemental damage cuts through this critter power. I don't allow it to unless the critter has an allergy to the elemental damage type. Hitting a Fire Spirit with a fire extinguisher or a cold damage grenade will work. Hitting a Fire Spirit with a flamethrower or shock gloves will not. If the damage has a magical source, it automatically pierces Immunity.
Hacking & Wired connections: Borrowing a page from the book Shadowplay, I've given wired connections an effective signal rating of 0. This means that anything can be hacked. I did this for practical reasons and flavor reasons. The flavor reasons can be found in the book: Shadowplay. The practical reason is that I don't like that players have to write down which of their gear is wired or not. Nor do I enjoy arguments over such petty things.
Full Version: Your houserule canon
I like most of your rules.
Here's some of ours:
Stick and shock only works in shotguns. The 1/2 impact armor doesn't work against vehicle/hardened armor, including ITNW. Vehicles still make the body + armor check and spend 2 turns rebooting if they fail. In general, anything else that doesn't take damage also doesn't make the stun check.
Initiating: Your max magic goes up 1. Then you may choose either a point of magic or a meta-magic.
Athletics: The 4 athletics skills are combined into one skill (athletics) and the 4 skills are now specializations. To avoid abuse of a silly, related rule, gymnastics dodge is no more.
Here's some of ours:
Stick and shock only works in shotguns. The 1/2 impact armor doesn't work against vehicle/hardened armor, including ITNW. Vehicles still make the body + armor check and spend 2 turns rebooting if they fail. In general, anything else that doesn't take damage also doesn't make the stun check.
Initiating: Your max magic goes up 1. Then you may choose either a point of magic or a meta-magic.
Athletics: The 4 athletics skills are combined into one skill (athletics) and the 4 skills are now specializations. To avoid abuse of a silly, related rule, gymnastics dodge is no more.
All elves are bisexual. 
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 21 2012, 06:35 PM) 
All elves are bisexual.
Even the males!?
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Sep 22 2012, 05:10 AM)
Even the males!?
Especially males D:Now, back to topic at hand: I've had a few instances of players trying to abuse the RAW, or just being puzzled on specific rules usages, so my houserules page mostly consists of clarifications and slight adjustments. The explanations are mostly stuff like whether Break Weapon is an opposed test, how armour mods like Fire Resistance work for multi-component armour suits, whether Energy Aura affects ranged attackers, or Paralyzing Howl creatures of the same type, and so on, and so for.
Then, we have a Look What's In This Pocket houserule: a runner is capable of spending one point of Edge normally to pull out of his pocket any piece of gear that could fit into it, and that costs no more than 500Y with no more than 12 in Availability. It's a rule that's meant to represent the difference between the character competence and player one: while the player might forget to buy a thermite bar, his Int 8 Infiltration 6 shadow is highly unlikely to make such an amateur mistake.
FFBA in our games stacks with other armour normally; and Softweave has its cost raised to 30% of the base armour price.
Most drone types have alternative models with different names but same stats, except with different propulsion methods. So any drone you can find with Walking is also available in Wheeled - just a little nice something for the riggers.
Contacts in my games have staches appropriate for their profession; so if a runner has a Connection 6 Weapon Trader contact, he's able to get most of the normal weapons right away, without waiting. Similarly, runners are supposed to be spending time training between their stated activities, so there's no training time for skills.
Threading is a Simple Action.
Any Device can have its Signal Rating set by the user to any value from 0 (wireless off) to Signal stat.
Adept initiation can at the player's choice give one Power Point instead of metamagic. If he chooses this option, however, his maximal magic is not increased.
Some Paranormal Powers can be Counterspelled (as per common sense and GM fiat).
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 21 2012, 11:39 PM)
Contacts in my games have staches appropriate for their profession
Even the women?
But more seriously;QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 21 2012, 11:39 PM)
Adept initiation can at the player's choice give one Power Point instead of metamagic. If he chooses this option, however, his maximal magic is not increased.
Why do you have this stipulation? Does it make it more balanced?
- SIN verification systems use the fake SIN's rating as a threshold. There is no opposed test.
- Shots can be called on narrow short bursts regardless of firing mode. Shots cannot be called on wide short bursts.
- oWod Style initiative. The player whose character has the lowest initiative announces his character's actions first. all quicker characters can interrupt him. Actios are resolved by decending order of initiative
- There are no vampires in SR, or at least the PCs will not get into contact with them.
- more when I remember them. The house rules are not formalized.
@Laodicea: Why would anyone ever bind spirits in your games? You can do nearly all you need with unbound spirits (aid study and aid sorcery aren't that great anyways). If you can only gain one additional (lower force) spirit, I would not bother in investing in binding.
Concerning your rule about ItNW and elemental damage, do you mean elemental damage from a mundane source just does not pierce ItNW, or that you don't even get the attack's AP? The former is RAW anyways. If the latter is the case, how do you handle a sniper rifle with APDS? Does that combination get the AP versus critters with ItNW? Why is it handled differently
- Shots can be called on narrow short bursts regardless of firing mode. Shots cannot be called on wide short bursts.
- oWod Style initiative. The player whose character has the lowest initiative announces his character's actions first. all quicker characters can interrupt him. Actios are resolved by decending order of initiative
- There are no vampires in SR, or at least the PCs will not get into contact with them.
- more when I remember them. The house rules are not formalized.
@Laodicea: Why would anyone ever bind spirits in your games? You can do nearly all you need with unbound spirits (aid study and aid sorcery aren't that great anyways). If you can only gain one additional (lower force) spirit, I would not bother in investing in binding.
Concerning your rule about ItNW and elemental damage, do you mean elemental damage from a mundane source just does not pierce ItNW, or that you don't even get the attack's AP? The former is RAW anyways. If the latter is the case, how do you handle a sniper rifle with APDS? Does that combination get the AP versus critters with ItNW? Why is it handled differently
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Sep 21 2012, 11:46 PM)
@Laodicea: Why would anyone ever bind spirits in your games? You can do nearly all you need with unbound spirits (aid study and aid sorcery aren't that great anyways). If you can only gain one additional (lower force) spirit, I would not bother in investing in binding.
Concerning your rule about ItNW and elemental damage, do you mean elemental damage from a mundane source just does not pierce ItNW, or that you don't even get the attack's AP? The former is RAW anyways. If the latter is the case, how do you handle a sniper rifle with APDS? Does that combination get the AP versus critters with ItNW? Why is it handled differently
Concerning your rule about ItNW and elemental damage, do you mean elemental damage from a mundane source just does not pierce ItNW, or that you don't even get the attack's AP? The former is RAW anyways. If the latter is the case, how do you handle a sniper rifle with APDS? Does that combination get the AP versus critters with ItNW? Why is it handled differently
I don't mind if no one takes binding, or even summoning, in my games. People can take it if they want their maximum of 2 spirits + a watcher. An additional spirit is probably worth the investment. No, it's not as worth it as when you can conjure 8 spirits.
I don't give anything AP vs ITNW, unless they're allergic to it.
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Sep 22 2012, 07:54 AM)
I don't give anything AP vs ITNW, unless they're allergic to it.
But if they are allergic to it, the allergen removes the quasi-armor altogether in addition to the +4 DV and continual damage, right? I think this unnecessarily screws with fire and water spirits as no other spirits have any allergies. I'm not aware of any other critters with ItNW and allergies. I would just summon spirits of air and man then. They have the cooler powers anyways.I don't know if you get the desired results with your houserules. On the one hand you reduce the maximum number of spirits a character can have at the same time, on the other hand you make the spirits he does get more powerful.
Just curious, if you eliminate SnS for everything but shotguns do you also axe the SA wireless tasers?
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 22 2012, 12:39 AM)
Then, we have a Look What's In This Pocket houserule: a runner is capable of spending one point of Edge normally to pull out of his pocket any piece of gear that could fit into it, and that costs no more than 500Y with no more than 12 in Availability. It's a rule that's meant to represent the difference between the character competence and player one: while the player might forget to buy a thermite bar, his Int 8 Infiltration 6 shadow is highly unlikely to make such an amateur mistake.
That's actually quite nifty. Can the item be Restricted or Forbidden, or is it straight Availability 12? Regardless, yoink!
QUOTE
Similarly, runners are supposed to be spending time training between their stated activities, so there's no training time for skills.
I also do this, albeit simply because, IMO, training time adds nothing to the game beyond another layer of bookkeeping that I don't want to bother with.
QUOTE
Character Generation: (for starting out a little lower)
All official SR4A books / e-publications can be used, though I reserve the right to veto certain items or combinations (probably won't happen, unless you are looking at truly outrageous stuff).
Characters will be built using the Karma Generation system from Runner's Companion (SR4A version, i.e. raising Attributes costs new Rating x5, Metatypes cost the BP cost in Karma, etc) with the standard 750 Karma.
In addition to the official rules, the following changes apply:
- The limit for how much Karma can be spent on Attributes (375 plus twice the Metatype BP cost) only applies to Physical and Mental Attributes; Special Attributes (i.e. Edge or Magic) can also be raised with the remaining Karma
- You get additional Knowledge Points equal to Intuition+Logic times 3 to spend on Knowledge Skills (just like with the BP system, one Rank costs one Knowledge Point)
- You also get additional Contact Points equal to Charisma times 3 to spend on Contacts (one point of Connection Rating or Loyalty costs one Contact Point)
- You can break up a Skill Group during character generation, when raising one of the skills further, or adding a specialization. You can never re-merge the Skill Group, however.
And the following limitations apply during character generation:
- Metatypes are limited to the standard Metatypes from the SR4A book and the Metavariants of these from Runner's Companion (no AIs, Changelings, Drakes, Infected, Shapeshifters, etc)
- No Technomancers
- No Possession traditions
- Only two Attributes (Physical or Mental) may be raised as much as four times each (i.e. max 5 for a human), all other Attributes (including all Special Attributes) can only be raised three times each
- Only one Skill can be raised to 5 OR two Skills can be raised to 4. All other Skills (including all Skill Groups) are limited to 3 during character generation.
- Knowledge Skills have the standard limit, i.e. one at 6 or two at 5, and the rest at 4 max.
- All equipment is limited to Availability 8 during character generation (or AV 12 with the Restricted Gear quality); the only exception to this are Fake SINs and Licenses, which have the normal limit of Availability 12
- Contacts are limited to Ratings of 3, both for Connection and Loyalty, but with a good enough explanation higher Ratings might be accepted (though anything above 4 is unlikely at best)
All official SR4A books / e-publications can be used, though I reserve the right to veto certain items or combinations (probably won't happen, unless you are looking at truly outrageous stuff).
Characters will be built using the Karma Generation system from Runner's Companion (SR4A version, i.e. raising Attributes costs new Rating x5, Metatypes cost the BP cost in Karma, etc) with the standard 750 Karma.
In addition to the official rules, the following changes apply:
- The limit for how much Karma can be spent on Attributes (375 plus twice the Metatype BP cost) only applies to Physical and Mental Attributes; Special Attributes (i.e. Edge or Magic) can also be raised with the remaining Karma
- You get additional Knowledge Points equal to Intuition+Logic times 3 to spend on Knowledge Skills (just like with the BP system, one Rank costs one Knowledge Point)
- You also get additional Contact Points equal to Charisma times 3 to spend on Contacts (one point of Connection Rating or Loyalty costs one Contact Point)
- You can break up a Skill Group during character generation, when raising one of the skills further, or adding a specialization. You can never re-merge the Skill Group, however.
And the following limitations apply during character generation:
- Metatypes are limited to the standard Metatypes from the SR4A book and the Metavariants of these from Runner's Companion (no AIs, Changelings, Drakes, Infected, Shapeshifters, etc)
- No Technomancers
- No Possession traditions
- Only two Attributes (Physical or Mental) may be raised as much as four times each (i.e. max 5 for a human), all other Attributes (including all Special Attributes) can only be raised three times each
- Only one Skill can be raised to 5 OR two Skills can be raised to 4. All other Skills (including all Skill Groups) are limited to 3 during character generation.
- Knowledge Skills have the standard limit, i.e. one at 6 or two at 5, and the rest at 4 max.
- All equipment is limited to Availability 8 during character generation (or AV 12 with the Restricted Gear quality); the only exception to this are Fake SINs and Licenses, which have the normal limit of Availability 12
- Contacts are limited to Ratings of 3, both for Connection and Loyalty, but with a good enough explanation higher Ratings might be accepted (though anything above 4 is unlikely at best)
QUOTE
House Rules:
In addition to normal Karma rewards, you also gain 50% extra Karma, which is limited to learning/improving Knowledge Skills and gaining new Contacts or (with GM's discretion) improving the Loyalty of old ones (within reason; the cost for improving Contacts is the same as for acquring them during character generation, when using Karma) during downtime (you can still gain new Contacts during play, of course).
Knowledge Skills will sometimes be used as a Teamwork Test, granting bonus dice for the actual test. This, generally, does not apply to Combat and Magic Skills, though. But it could be used in a shadowing or a car chase, when you know the area very well, or if you have specific knowledge about maglocks, it might help when trying to disable them. Knowing much about fine cuisine could help with the higher class etiquette.
Pretty much anything, cyberware, bioware, foci, etc, can be improved in Rating during the game, by paying the difference in cost (AV for the "upgrade" is the AV of the higher Rating). You do not have to replace the items completely.
Indirect Combat Spells have their Drain Value reduced by 1. Indirect Elemental Combat Spells have their Drain Value reduced by an additional 1 (total 2).
Overcasting is a lot harsher than normal. The portion of the Force that goes beyond the Magic Rating is not halved (i.e. when you have Magic 3 and cast a Force 6 spell, the F/2 part of the Drain would be 4 (1 for the 3 points up to your Magic Rating and 3 more for the 3 points beyond). You can use the following formula to calculate Drain when overcasting: Force - Magic/2 (round up).
Physical Drain is resisted twice (with the exact same Dice Pool; i.e. if you spend Edge before the roll, you can use the extra dice for both rolls), once dealing physical damage and once dealing stun damage.
Summoning is generally limited to Force Ratings no higher than the summoner's Magic Rating.
Watchers can use the Magic Rating of their summoner, when using the Search Power.
Emotitoys are toys and useless for runners. Emotion Sensor Software is useful, however, but instead of giving its Rating as a dice pool modifier it is used as a Teamwork Test using its Rating (and granting bonus dice equal to the number of hits, limited to the Skill Rating of the skill being used).
The Adrenal Pump increases Attributes beyond the augmented maximum (up to twice the natural maximum). The Drain can be resisted with Body+Willpower.
Contacts can only acquire gear with an Availability as high as 4 times their Connection Rating. This limit applies, if you use your own Negotiation Skill or let the Contact use his or hers.
Contacts usually have an area of specialty (especially Fixers; weapons dealer, electronics fence, etc; the area of specialty should be reasonably specific). When using this specialty, they count their Connection Rating as one point higher than normal.
In addition to normal Karma rewards, you also gain 50% extra Karma, which is limited to learning/improving Knowledge Skills and gaining new Contacts or (with GM's discretion) improving the Loyalty of old ones (within reason; the cost for improving Contacts is the same as for acquring them during character generation, when using Karma) during downtime (you can still gain new Contacts during play, of course).
Knowledge Skills will sometimes be used as a Teamwork Test, granting bonus dice for the actual test. This, generally, does not apply to Combat and Magic Skills, though. But it could be used in a shadowing or a car chase, when you know the area very well, or if you have specific knowledge about maglocks, it might help when trying to disable them. Knowing much about fine cuisine could help with the higher class etiquette.
Pretty much anything, cyberware, bioware, foci, etc, can be improved in Rating during the game, by paying the difference in cost (AV for the "upgrade" is the AV of the higher Rating). You do not have to replace the items completely.
Indirect Combat Spells have their Drain Value reduced by 1. Indirect Elemental Combat Spells have their Drain Value reduced by an additional 1 (total 2).
Overcasting is a lot harsher than normal. The portion of the Force that goes beyond the Magic Rating is not halved (i.e. when you have Magic 3 and cast a Force 6 spell, the F/2 part of the Drain would be 4 (1 for the 3 points up to your Magic Rating and 3 more for the 3 points beyond). You can use the following formula to calculate Drain when overcasting: Force - Magic/2 (round up).
Physical Drain is resisted twice (with the exact same Dice Pool; i.e. if you spend Edge before the roll, you can use the extra dice for both rolls), once dealing physical damage and once dealing stun damage.
Summoning is generally limited to Force Ratings no higher than the summoner's Magic Rating.
Watchers can use the Magic Rating of their summoner, when using the Search Power.
Emotitoys are toys and useless for runners. Emotion Sensor Software is useful, however, but instead of giving its Rating as a dice pool modifier it is used as a Teamwork Test using its Rating (and granting bonus dice equal to the number of hits, limited to the Skill Rating of the skill being used).
The Adrenal Pump increases Attributes beyond the augmented maximum (up to twice the natural maximum). The Drain can be resisted with Body+Willpower.
Contacts can only acquire gear with an Availability as high as 4 times their Connection Rating. This limit applies, if you use your own Negotiation Skill or let the Contact use his or hers.
Contacts usually have an area of specialty (especially Fixers; weapons dealer, electronics fence, etc; the area of specialty should be reasonably specific). When using this specialty, they count their Connection Rating as one point higher than normal.
Bye
Thanee
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Sep 22 2012, 09:27 AM)
Why do you have this stipulation? Does it make it more balanced?
Well otherwise an adept would be able to get two Power Points from one initiation...QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 22 2012, 10:37 AM)
That's actually quite nifty. Can the item be Restricted or Forbidden, or is it straight Availability 12? Regardless, yoink!
Well, yeah - while restriction level is supposed to be important, it rarely comes up in our games, so both R and F, too.QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 22 2012, 10:37 AM)
I also do this, albeit simply because, IMO, training time adds nothing to the game beyond another layer of bookkeeping that I don't want to bother with.
From the mechanical standpoint, that's the reason for the rule. From the fluff standpoint, there's a justification: when the hacker's spending several hours in a data search, the rest of the team usually has free time on their hands anyway.
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 22 2012, 11:24 AM)
Well otherwise an adept would be able to get two Power Points from one initiation...
Adept initiates and grabs metamagic. Magic attribute boosted for free.
Net result: special power and 1 power point.
Adept initiates and grabs power point. Magic attribute not raised for free.
Net result: 1 power point.
(That seems totally fair.
)It can easily be remedied by not raising magic for free on initiation (look at the cost, magic 4 normally costs 20 karma, first initiation? 11. None of your players are going to spend karma on raising their magic, as it will always be more expensive that initiating, and every time they initiate, that gap grows wider (initiation goes up by 3 every time, magic goes up by 5)).
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 22 2012, 10:55 AM)
Adept initiates and grabs metamagic. Magic attribute boosted for free.
Net result: special power and 1 power point.
Adept initiates and grabs power point. Magic attribute not raised for free.
Net result: 1 power point.
(That seems totally fair. )
It can easily be remedied by not raising magic for free on initiation (look at the cost, magic 4 normally costs 20 karma, first initiation? 11. None of your players are going to spend karma on raising their magic, as it will always be more expensive that initiating, and every time they initiate, that gap grows wider (initiation goes up by 3 every time, magic goes up by 5)).
Net result: special power and 1 power point.
Adept initiates and grabs power point. Magic attribute not raised for free.
Net result: 1 power point.
(That seems totally fair.
)It can easily be remedied by not raising magic for free on initiation (look at the cost, magic 4 normally costs 20 karma, first initiation? 11. None of your players are going to spend karma on raising their magic, as it will always be more expensive that initiating, and every time they initiate, that gap grows wider (initiation goes up by 3 every time, magic goes up by 5)).
I'm confused. Where did Fatum say initiation includes a free point of Magic?
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 22 2012, 12:24 PM)
I'm confused. Where did Fatum say initiation includes a free point of Magic?
Whoops, I misread what his houserule was. No maximum magic.
Characters involved in social interactions can make a Composure Test whenever they want to. Each success remove one dice from any modifier their interlocutor may receive from Kinesics, Empathy Software or situation.
No table for range modifier, it is whatever the GM says it is. Rules of thumbs is, -1/10 meters for pistols, SMG and shotguns, -1/40 meters for assault rifles and LMG, -1/50 meters for HMG, -1/60 meters for hunting and precision rifles and assault canons, divided by 2 if shouldered, 4 if using bipod or tripod.
Random bullets and suppressive fire deal base weapon DV + ammo modifier + 1D6, so that innocent bystanders can get killed sometimes.
Explosions that hit "a vulnerable portion of a target" (they often do) receive the same +4 to DV than a Called Shot would.
Net hits does not add to stun baton, shock gloves, tasers and SNS damage. If the attacker achieves two net hits, and number of boxes taken exceeds Body, the target is knocked down and incapacitated for a number of turns equals to the number of boxes. The number of boxes taken from multiple electrical attacks in a turn and the previous one adds up for both comparison to Body and how long the effect lasts. So it may take more than a shot to get a troll down, but he will get down!
Small caliber SNS probably exist, but my players have yet to see some. Common as shotgun rounds.
Signal decreases with distance. Effective Signal is base Signal minus the Signal needed at that range : ie, full Signal between 0 and 3 meters, -1 between 3 and 40 meters, -2 between 40 and 100 meters, and so on... Effective Signal is used when comparing for Jaming effects.
Skillsofts and Autosofts can be bought with one Specialization for +1,000¥.
Availability for Mind Probe Formulae is not 4R. Try 24F instead. Each spell has a separate Availability code.
No table for range modifier, it is whatever the GM says it is. Rules of thumbs is, -1/10 meters for pistols, SMG and shotguns, -1/40 meters for assault rifles and LMG, -1/50 meters for HMG, -1/60 meters for hunting and precision rifles and assault canons, divided by 2 if shouldered, 4 if using bipod or tripod.
Random bullets and suppressive fire deal base weapon DV + ammo modifier + 1D6, so that innocent bystanders can get killed sometimes.
Explosions that hit "a vulnerable portion of a target" (they often do) receive the same +4 to DV than a Called Shot would.
Net hits does not add to stun baton, shock gloves, tasers and SNS damage. If the attacker achieves two net hits, and number of boxes taken exceeds Body, the target is knocked down and incapacitated for a number of turns equals to the number of boxes. The number of boxes taken from multiple electrical attacks in a turn and the previous one adds up for both comparison to Body and how long the effect lasts. So it may take more than a shot to get a troll down, but he will get down!
Small caliber SNS probably exist, but my players have yet to see some. Common as shotgun rounds.
Signal decreases with distance. Effective Signal is base Signal minus the Signal needed at that range : ie, full Signal between 0 and 3 meters, -1 between 3 and 40 meters, -2 between 40 and 100 meters, and so on... Effective Signal is used when comparing for Jaming effects.
Skillsofts and Autosofts can be bought with one Specialization for +1,000¥.
Availability for Mind Probe Formulae is not 4R. Try 24F instead. Each spell has a separate Availability code.
My Houserule Cannon is a 155mm Smoothbore that's used by Lofwyr for skeet shooting.
...
What?
...
What?
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 22 2012, 12:51 PM)
My Houserule Cannon is a 155mm Smoothbore that's used by Lofwyr for skeet shooting.
...
What?
...
What?
How big are the clay pigeons?
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 22 2012, 12:30 PM)
How big are the clay pigeons?
Buicks. A bit of a "Frag You" to Ares. 
Does he wield the cannon himself, or is it mounted on a vehicle and/or fixed emplacement?
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 22 2012, 03:12 PM)
Does he wield the cannon himself, or is it mounted on a vehicle and/or fixed emplacement?
The cooler option, obviously.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 22 2012, 01:32 PM)
Buicks. A bit of a "Frag You" to Ares.
That's okay. Damien Knight plays Darts with BMWs.
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 22 2012, 04:11 PM)
That's okay. Damien Knight plays Darts with BMWs.
The things you can do with oodles of money.
"What the hell are they gambling at there?" "Oh, that's the AAA-Level Pub Games. So far, Lofwyr is head with five Buicks on six launches, while Damien Knight is at 155 Points with BMWs on the dart board." "And Buttercup juggling Nissans?" "Oh, she's just showing off."
QUOTE (Nath @ Sep 22 2012, 10:46 AM)
Availability for Mind Probe Formulae is not 4R. Try 24F instead. Each spell has a separate Availability code.
This is amazing. Why did I never think to give spells an availability at character creation?! I'd put Mind Control at like 30F. Others would be around 20, to require Restricted Gear to take. This would make characters who take the skills to write spells actually worthwhile. It also effectively removes a lot of spells I hate from common play. I love it.
Now I just have to make a list of spells and their availability. Unless you would be kind enough to post yours.
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 22 2012, 12:39 AM)
...Look What's In This Pocket houserule: a runner is capable of spending one point of Edge normally to pull out of his pocket any piece of gear that could fit into it, and that costs no more than 500Y with no more than 12 in Availability. It's a rule that's meant to represent the difference between the character competence and player one: while the player might forget to buy a thermite bar, his Int 8 Infiltration 6 shadow is highly unlikely to make such an amateur mistake.
This is an amazing houserule, and I'll be using it as soon as I can.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 22 2012, 08:41 PM)
Whoops, I misread what his houserule was. No maximum magic.
It's meant to compensate for how little useful metamagic adepts can get. So you either get a Power Point for the initiation cost, or a metamagic technique and a possibility to spend another massive chunk of Karma to get the Power Point.
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 22 2012, 05:54 PM)
It's meant to compensate for how little useful metamagic adepts can get.
So you either get a Power Point for the initiation cost and the cost of not raising the Magic cap, or a metamagic technique and a possibility to spend another massive chunk of Karma to get the Power Point.
So you either get a Power Point for the initiation cost and the cost of not raising the Magic cap, or a metamagic technique and a possibility to spend another massive chunk of Karma to get the Power Point.
Fixed. And I'm fuzzy on how that compensates for anything.
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 23 2012, 07:41 AM)
I'm fuzzy on how that compensates for anything.
Simple. Once you take the couple (arguably) useful adept metamagics, you're left with pretty much nothing. So you are forced to pay a massive amount of Karma just for the right to increase your Magic a step. While Magicians get all the cool stuff in addition.
Still not seeing it.
Under the optional rule from Street Magic: Annie Adept initiates and takes a Power Point instead of a metamagic. Her maximum Magic goes up, but she still has to pay the normal Attribute rate (New Rating x 5) to increase her actual Magic rating.
Under your rule: Annie Adept initiates and takes a Power Point instead of a metamagic. Her maximum Magic does not go up, and now she is screwed because she's hard up against the cap.
In what specific way does this make up for the lack of metamagic techniques that are useful for adepts? It looks to me like you're just punishing poor Annie for not being a full magician.
Under the optional rule from Street Magic: Annie Adept initiates and takes a Power Point instead of a metamagic. Her maximum Magic goes up, but she still has to pay the normal Attribute rate (New Rating x 5) to increase her actual Magic rating.
Under your rule: Annie Adept initiates and takes a Power Point instead of a metamagic. Her maximum Magic does not go up, and now she is screwed because she's hard up against the cap.
In what specific way does this make up for the lack of metamagic techniques that are useful for adepts? It looks to me like you're just punishing poor Annie for not being a full magician.
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 23 2012, 08:51 AM)
In what specific way does this make up for the lack of metamagic techniques that are useful for adepts? It looks to me like you're just punishing poor Annie for not being a full magician.
Are you even serious? The adept is getting an additional Power Point - the only thing he's getting out of an initiation anyway, - for less than half the price he'd pay for it otherwise. Still not seeing it?
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 23 2012, 08:28 AM)
Are you even serious? The adept is getting an additional Power Point - the only thing he's getting out of an initiation anyway, - for less than half the price he'd pay for it otherwise. Still not seeing it?
The point of contention is probably in comparison with the printed optional rule from Street Magic, where it's just a straight substitution of metamagic -> power point, without losing a point of maximum magic.
I think I'm lost as well, normally by the book anytime someone initiates they raise the cap on what their maximum magic can be, so an Adept who has initiated twice who has a magic of 6 can now have a Magic of 8. This is despite taking a meta or PP, the optional rule allows an Adept to swap the typical Metamagic they would normally gain from initiating & use that for a Power point to ultimately double the amount of PP an adept is able to obtain, there is also a cap on initiations equal to your Magic stat so Andre Adept has initiated 6 times with Magic 6 & has12 PP (didn't want any of the Metas) he can no longer initiate until he spends 35 Karma to bring his Magic to 7 then after that he may initiate to 7. Since he has a 6 initiation he may at any point spend the Karma top bring his Magic to 12 as a Maximum until he initiates further.
This is the way it has worked in the base rules as far as I have read & understand...am I missing something?
This is the way it has worked in the base rules as far as I have read & understand...am I missing something?
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 23 2012, 09:09 AM)
This is the way it has worked in the base rules as far as I have read & understand...am I missing something?
That is correct, except that the power point instead of metamagic technique is optional and not all GMs will allow it. Additionally with those power points you still can't raise any adept power rating above your magic rating. So no Combat Sense 7 etc.
Naturally, I also stated it was optional in my post, so I'm trying to understand what the houserule under discussion is really adding for the Adept.
edit: I just went back & reread it, Fatum's houserule weakens an Adept IMO as taking the PP option means that Andre Adept initiates 6 times, he takes 3 Metamagics & 3 PP but under the Houserule in question he only has a Maximum Magic of 9 since he only gains a new Max Magic level whenever he gains a Metamagic.
edit: I just went back & reread it, Fatum's houserule weakens an Adept IMO as taking the PP option means that Andre Adept initiates 6 times, he takes 3 Metamagics & 3 PP but under the Houserule in question he only has a Maximum Magic of 9 since he only gains a new Max Magic level whenever he gains a Metamagic.
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 23 2012, 09:18 AM)
Naturally, I also stated it was optional in my post, so I'm trying to understand what the houserule under discussion is really adding for the Adept.
edit: I just went back & reread it, Fatum's houserule weakens an Adept IMO as taking the PP option means that Andre Adept initiates 6 times, he takes 3 Metamagics & 3 PP but under the Houserule in question he only has a Maximum Magic of 9 since he only gains a new Max Magic level whenever he gains a Metamagic.
edit: I just went back & reread it, Fatum's houserule weakens an Adept IMO as taking the PP option means that Andre Adept initiates 6 times, he takes 3 Metamagics & 3 PP but under the Houserule in question he only has a Maximum Magic of 9 since he only gains a new Max Magic level whenever he gains a Metamagic.
It's stronger than the baseline adept, but weaker than an adept with the street magic optional rule of taking PPs instead of metamagic.
I can sorta see what you mean as its allowing PP use without using the optional rule in the book, but still in the long run it makes an Adept much weaker than a normal Magician & more on Par with kinda a Mystic Adept. (assuming the PP OR is in effect)
A Magician who initiates will ALWAYS gain an increased Max Magic after every initiation (assuming there is no houserule governing their gain) which means that they are always increasing their power as they will gain a Meta & a Max Magic every initiation.
However anytime an Adept wants to actually make THEMSELVES more useful they suffer somewhat as they are limited by their total PP.
I wonder if this effects Mystic Adepts as well, because this could make them even more at a Loss as a common practice if the OR is in use is to make your Mage side go by your Magic & use the Initiation PP to increase your Adept side. If it does not affect Mystic Adepts, it strengthens them over normal Adepts.
A Magician who initiates will ALWAYS gain an increased Max Magic after every initiation (assuming there is no houserule governing their gain) which means that they are always increasing their power as they will gain a Meta & a Max Magic every initiation.
However anytime an Adept wants to actually make THEMSELVES more useful they suffer somewhat as they are limited by their total PP.
I wonder if this effects Mystic Adepts as well, because this could make them even more at a Loss as a common practice if the OR is in use is to make your Mage side go by your Magic & use the Initiation PP to increase your Adept side. If it does not affect Mystic Adepts, it strengthens them over normal Adepts.
On the other hand even for adepts there are enough metamagic techniques to last longer than most campaigns go.
well that depends on your playstyle, my sniper Adept...I can only think of 2 Metamagics that would be useful (of the ones I've looked at) & one is kinda...overkill with my current pool
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 23 2012, 01:28 AM)
Are you even serious? The adept is getting an additional Power Point - the only thing he's getting out of an initiation anyway, - for less than half the price he'd pay for it otherwise. Still not seeing it?
In order to make up for a deficiency, you have to give adepts something. You're not giving them anything, you're taking something away. This does not "make up" for anything.
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 23 2012, 04:12 PM)
In order to make up for a deficiency, you have to give adepts something. You're not giving them anything, you're taking something away. This does not "make up" for anything.
He is not taking anything away. By his rules, adepts can still take metamagic, so they do not lose anything there compared to adepts without the use of optional rules. Gaining more options = making something better (assuming those options are not straight up worse than what they replace. A power point in itself is not worse than a metamagic+one maximum point of magic.
Halinn is right, its not taking away anything as the part being taken away is purely optional. Is it weaker than the optional rule in question? Yes, Absolutely. But vs a Base adept out of the Core book ONLY? no.
The Houserule in question IS, in my opinion, a little biased against Adepts as it weakens them as a whole vs just using the base optional rule. But, assuming the optional rule is not used, which I'd naturally assume its not, it allows the Adept an option.
Halinn, the Houserule in question IS worse than the optional rule it is essentially replacing, its hard for anyone to NOT compare that HR vs the OR since they both add the option of replacing the lesser useful Metamagics that adepts can take with a PP. however you are right the HR is better than the stock unaugmented Core rule.
The Houserule in question IS, in my opinion, a little biased against Adepts as it weakens them as a whole vs just using the base optional rule. But, assuming the optional rule is not used, which I'd naturally assume its not, it allows the Adept an option.
Halinn, the Houserule in question IS worse than the optional rule it is essentially replacing, its hard for anyone to NOT compare that HR vs the OR since they both add the option of replacing the lesser useful Metamagics that adepts can take with a PP. however you are right the HR is better than the stock unaugmented Core rule.
He is taking something away: the potential to initiate without limit.
Let's go back to Annie Adept. She starts with Magic 4. Over the course of gameplay, Annie initiates twice, taking Adept Centering and Attunement (Item). Her maximum Magic is now 8 (minus any Essence lost to augmentation, but for the sake of simplicity we will ignore this). Annie goes on to initiate two more times, taking a Power Point each time because she doesn't want any of the other metamagic techniques. Her maximum Magic is still 8, and she cannot initiate any more until she raises her actual Magic.
Annie Adept drops 25 Karma to gain Magic 5 and a Power Point. Now she can initiate again... but her maximum Magic is still not going up. Are you beginning to see the problem? Once she hits Magic 8 and eight initiations, she can go no further without taking a (to her) useless metamagic technique.
Yes, Annie now has Magic 8 and 14PP, but her growth as an Awakened character has reached a dead end. She paid for those extra 6PP with a hard cap on how far she can go, on top of the Karma cost of all those initiations. Mickey Mage, on the other hand, has Magic 8, 8 metamagic techniques, and can keep going indefinitely.
Let's go back to Annie Adept. She starts with Magic 4. Over the course of gameplay, Annie initiates twice, taking Adept Centering and Attunement (Item). Her maximum Magic is now 8 (minus any Essence lost to augmentation, but for the sake of simplicity we will ignore this). Annie goes on to initiate two more times, taking a Power Point each time because she doesn't want any of the other metamagic techniques. Her maximum Magic is still 8, and she cannot initiate any more until she raises her actual Magic.
Annie Adept drops 25 Karma to gain Magic 5 and a Power Point. Now she can initiate again... but her maximum Magic is still not going up. Are you beginning to see the problem? Once she hits Magic 8 and eight initiations, she can go no further without taking a (to her) useless metamagic technique.
Yes, Annie now has Magic 8 and 14PP, but her growth as an Awakened character has reached a dead end. She paid for those extra 6PP with a hard cap on how far she can go, on top of the Karma cost of all those initiations. Mickey Mage, on the other hand, has Magic 8, 8 metamagic techniques, and can keep going indefinitely.
I understand where you're coming from HOWEVER this is no different than the Stock Adept in a game where the Optional PP rule is NOT used. A stock Adept that initiates without the Optional Rule receives a free Metamagic & his Maximum Magic Score is raised, this is the Core Rule. What the Houserule being mentioned is saying is "The Optional Rule is Not used, Instead, we're modifying the Core Rule, to allow you to use that initiation to better yourself"
Do I agree as to its viability? No, but I'm not using the rule, Fatum's table is, I personally would rather see just the optional rule being used. But perhaps, Fatum has had a problem with super powered Adepts showing up everyone at his table & this Houserule helps reign those types of players/characters in a bit to allow other players to enjoy the game too.
I am not trying to criticize I was simply trying to understand what the Houserule was meant for.
edit: As a sidenote, I hope there is a way to reign in the Mages just as much otherwise the Mages at the table will overpower everyone.
Do I agree as to its viability? No, but I'm not using the rule, Fatum's table is, I personally would rather see just the optional rule being used. But perhaps, Fatum has had a problem with super powered Adepts showing up everyone at his table & this Houserule helps reign those types of players/characters in a bit to allow other players to enjoy the game too.
I am not trying to criticize I was simply trying to understand what the Houserule was meant for.
edit: As a sidenote, I hope there is a way to reign in the Mages just as much otherwise the Mages at the table will overpower everyone.
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 23 2012, 07:00 PM)
Halinn, the Houserule in question IS worse than the optional rule it is essentially replacing, its hard for anyone to NOT compare that HR vs the OR since they both add the option of replacing the lesser useful Metamagics that adepts can take with a PP. however you are right the HR is better than the stock unaugmented Core rule.
Yeah, it's worse than the optional rule. But allowing an adept to get two PP per initiation, well, I can't say "is unbalanced" because balance is a meaningless concept in SR, but it just doesn't sound right to me. Having an adept with three initiations and 12 PP? A bit of an overkill, imo.QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 23 2012, 07:01 PM)
Yes, Annie now has Magic 8 and 14PP, but her growth as an Awakened character has reached a dead end. She paid for those extra 6PP with a hard cap on how far she can go, on top of the Karma cost of all those initiations. Mickey Mage, on the other hand, has Magic 8, 8 metamagic techniques, and can keep going indefinitely.
Obviously if that ever came up I'd handwave the requirement. It just never did.
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 23 2012, 10:24 AM)
Obviously if that ever came up I'd handwave the requirement. It just never did.
A rule which requires that kind of handwave is a poorly thought-out rule.
Fatum, how are they getting 2 PP per initiation? do you mean getting 1 PP for the initation & 1 potential PP for raising their Magic?
If thats the case may I ask how you handle Mages who have 60 spells? I have an Adept Sniper who has Magic 7 Initiation 3, so he has 10 PP, & that took me a certain amount of Karma to do, however a Mage could have learned 7+ spells for the same Karma it took for me to get those extra 4 PP, an Adept is seriously limited by Karma. if you limit PP gain to Magic only you're basically telling an Adept they have to spend 30+ Karma for maybe 2 abilities meanwhile that 30 karma is 6 spells for a mage.
If thats the case may I ask how you handle Mages who have 60 spells? I have an Adept Sniper who has Magic 7 Initiation 3, so he has 10 PP, & that took me a certain amount of Karma to do, however a Mage could have learned 7+ spells for the same Karma it took for me to get those extra 4 PP, an Adept is seriously limited by Karma. if you limit PP gain to Magic only you're basically telling an Adept they have to spend 30+ Karma for maybe 2 abilities meanwhile that 30 karma is 6 spells for a mage.
Ok here are some of mine, hope they don't get ignored in the PP debate 
Skill groups: Skill groups comes with 1 Specialization for free. Additional ones has normal cost, and max. 1 per skill remains.
Light Pistols: Damage increased by 1. This is mostly to make them somewhat useful.
Physical damage overflow: Instead of 1 extra damage per (Body) combat turns, it is (Body) Minutes. This makes it physically possible to be saved by DocWagon etc while bleeding out, and is slightly more realistic too.
Armor Penetration value: Just like AP cannot reduce armor dice to less than 0, positive AP cannot increase target’s armor to more than double. Thus if wearing Leather Jacket (2/2) and fired upon by buckshot (+2DV/+5AP), the target only recieves 4 dice from armor (2 more than usual).
Tasers and Stick’nShocks : Both have their base damage reduced by 2. Immunity to normal weapons is not affected by the taser/S&S armor piercing, and creatures without a central nervous system is unaffected by Electricity secondary effect.
Fleschette and Buckshot: Flechette has the Damage and AP values of +2DV, +2 AP, resisted by impact armor. It can be used in any firearm, not just shotguns.
Buckshot has the damage and AP values of +2DV, +5 AP, resisted by Impact armor. It has the price and availability of Regular ammo, and can only be used in Shotguns and weapons specifically using shotgun rules (Remington Roomsweeper).
Note that All the weapons listed with Fleschette ammo has incorrect AP values:
Raecor Sting: AP +2
Ares Viper Slivergun: AP+1
Remington Roomsweeper: AP+4
Mossberg AM-CMDT AP +4 (buckshot) or AP +1 (Fleschette)
Remington 990: AP +4(buckshot) or or AP +1 (Fleshette) or AP -1 (slugs).
That's it for now. Other rules are campaign-specific.
Skill groups: Skill groups comes with 1 Specialization for free. Additional ones has normal cost, and max. 1 per skill remains.
Light Pistols: Damage increased by 1. This is mostly to make them somewhat useful.
Physical damage overflow: Instead of 1 extra damage per (Body) combat turns, it is (Body) Minutes. This makes it physically possible to be saved by DocWagon etc while bleeding out, and is slightly more realistic too.
Armor Penetration value: Just like AP cannot reduce armor dice to less than 0, positive AP cannot increase target’s armor to more than double. Thus if wearing Leather Jacket (2/2) and fired upon by buckshot (+2DV/+5AP), the target only recieves 4 dice from armor (2 more than usual).
Tasers and Stick’nShocks : Both have their base damage reduced by 2. Immunity to normal weapons is not affected by the taser/S&S armor piercing, and creatures without a central nervous system is unaffected by Electricity secondary effect.
Fleschette and Buckshot: Flechette has the Damage and AP values of +2DV, +2 AP, resisted by impact armor. It can be used in any firearm, not just shotguns.
Buckshot has the damage and AP values of +2DV, +5 AP, resisted by Impact armor. It has the price and availability of Regular ammo, and can only be used in Shotguns and weapons specifically using shotgun rules (Remington Roomsweeper).
Note that All the weapons listed with Fleschette ammo has incorrect AP values:
Raecor Sting: AP +2
Ares Viper Slivergun: AP+1
Remington Roomsweeper: AP+4
Mossberg AM-CMDT AP +4 (buckshot) or AP +1 (Fleschette)
Remington 990: AP +4(buckshot) or or AP +1 (Fleshette) or AP -1 (slugs).
That's it for now. Other rules are campaign-specific.
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Sep 23 2012, 01:24 PM)
Light Pistols: Damage increased by 1. This is mostly to make them somewhat useful.
That makes light pistols do the same damage code as heavy pistols - the only advantage that heavy pistols have is the -1 AP, which is not really worth the hit to Concealability. Okay if moving the PC's from heavy pistols to light pistols is your intention.
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Sep 23 2012, 01:24 PM)
Armor Penetration value: Just like AP cannot reduce armor dice to less than 0, positive AP cannot increase target’s armor to more than double. Thus if wearing Leather Jacket (2/2) and fired upon by buckshot (+2DV/+5AP), the target only recieves 4 dice from armor (2 more than usual).
Fleschette and Buckshot: Flechette has the Damage and AP values of +2DV, +2 AP, resisted by impact armor. It can be used in any firearm, not just shotguns.
Buckshot has the damage and AP values of +2DV, +5 AP, resisted by Impact armor. It has the price and availability of Regular ammo, and can only be used in Shotguns and weapons specifically using shotgun rules (Remington Roomsweeper).
Fleschette and Buckshot: Flechette has the Damage and AP values of +2DV, +2 AP, resisted by impact armor. It can be used in any firearm, not just shotguns.
Buckshot has the damage and AP values of +2DV, +5 AP, resisted by Impact armor. It has the price and availability of Regular ammo, and can only be used in Shotguns and weapons specifically using shotgun rules (Remington Roomsweeper).
I like these two. It always bugged me a bit that buckshot and flechette were lumped in together price-wise and effectiveness-wise. And the AP one makes sense.
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