How much Karma do you need to be a "Professional" Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[KCKitsune]

I was wondering about how much Karma is considered to be good. I know that a starting off character (400 BP) has no extra Karma, but how much do you need to be at each of the following levels:

Beginner
Average
Experienced
Good
Prime Runner

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hard to answer, since BP builds can swing so wildly.

I would guesstimate about:

Average 50
Experienced 100
Good 150-200
Prime 250-300

Along with aditional caveats that are not necessarily Karma Dependant - Contacts and Equipment are the big items here. I do not consider a Runner to be "Prime" without at least a couple hundred Contact Points (Loyalty/Connection) worth of Contacts. *shrug*

But those numbers are highly dependant upon the build of the character. In some cases, you might need to add more to each category, dependant upon the build.

But that is just me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *shrug*

[tsuyoshikentsu]

You start as an experienced runner. After that, it varies wildly.

[StealthSigma]

You're a prime runner when your street cred is high enough that you're better at being a face without social skills* than starting PC faces (pornomancer excluded).

*Ignoring the limit on bonus dice from street cred, of course....

[X-Kalibur]

According to missions you're a prime runner at 150 karma and a legendary runner at 200, right?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

According to missions you're a prime runner at 150 karma and a legendary runner at 200, right?

Don't Know... Don't play in Missions... *shrug*

[Emperor Tippy]

You are a prime runner a day out of 400 BP char gen.

As for being professional, it's all about mindset; not so much about skills.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You are a prime runner a day out of 400 BP char gen.

Many, if not most, disagree with this opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bannockburn]

You are a prime runner a day out of 400 BP char gen.

IMO, you are not.
For me, 400BP is a starting point. People who just grew out of petty theft or gang violence and start to make a name for themselves on the street. Smart enough to rise above the rest of the scum, if you so will.
Depends on the particular background, of course.

However, as has been mentioned before, BP generated characters tend to vary wildly in terms of specialization or broader skills, so 'Prime Runner' status (if you are so unimaginative that you limit this to a single dice pool) may be attainable even for starting characters. Personally, I find those extremely limited in their play style, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

IMO, karmagen is much better suited to reflect an absolute powerlevel. I think karmagen with free knowledge skill points as in BP gen @ 750 karma tends to produce characters that are good to compare to 500 BP characters and resemble what I imagine as very skilled individuals.

After about 100 karma more, I'd call the characters very good, at 200+ prime runners with names echoing through the global shadows.

[KCKitsune]

Thank you everyone for your quick replies! I very much appreciate it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Many, if not most, disagree with this opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And under the rules as they are written in the published core book those individuals are wrong.

IMO, you are not.
For me, 400BP is a starting point. People who just grew out of petty theft or gang violence and start to make a name for themselves on the street. Smart enough to rise above the rest of the scum, if you so will.
Depends on the particular background, of course.

If you have any skill at 5 you are already far and away above the scum.

Most real life gang members with years of street experience are rocking a 2 for firearms, a 2 for driving, a 1 for social skills, a 3-4 for Street knowledge, and most everything else at zero.

There is a reason that gang members with even basic military training are hot stuff on the streets. Quite literally, if you can pass boot camp then you are almost certainly a better shot and more physically capable than 99% of the gang members in the US.

When you are throwing down entire skill groups at 3-4 points you are already as far above street level gang bangers as Shadowrunners are above most corporate security forces.

Most people might hit 3 points in a single skill and the associated knowledge skill. 4 points is the guy with years of experience using that skill. 5 points is the guy who is just naturally talented at that skill and has refined that talent through years of constant work and effort. 6 points is pretty much international levels of recognition (have a 6 in anything athletic? That's Olympic gold levels of skill. Have a 6 in social skills? That is US President level. Have a 6 in firearms? That is Secret Service Countersniper level.). 7 points is Michael Phelps in Swimming, Einstein in Physics, Fastjack in hacking, Michael Jordan in basketball.

Take driving, most people in real life wouldn't even rate as rating 1.

The very compressed skill rating table is something of a disservice but it does show how incredibly capable a rank and file runner is.

Half the time your team medic is a world class trauma surgeon who could walk into Johns Hopkins and walk out with a job. Your team driver is a guy who could walk into Ferrari and walk out with a job driving their F1 car.

So yes, you have the skills and knowledge to be a professional shadowrunner a day out of chargen and you aren't simply some exceptional gangbanger. The most exceptional gangbangers barely rate at the level you are competing on in a single skill, much less the half dozen you rate highly on.

[bannockburn]

Take a look at Ancient Gangers. Those are all Prime Runners according to your (kind of flawed and onetracked, IMHO) definition.
I'm still waiting for an actual quote from the rulebook that you refer to, where it says that fresh characters are the creme de la creme of the shadowy world of crime, backstab and no upward progression.

[Halinn]

I'd base it off dice pools instead. An experienced runner has a pool of 14+ in two different fields, a veteran runner has a pool of 14+ in three different fields, and a prime runner has a pool of 16+ in three different fields. Of course, a good amount of contacts are assumed along with that, increasing the further you come.

[Emperor Tippy]

Take a look at Ancient Gangers. Those are all Prime Runners according to your (kind of flawed and onetracked, IMHO) definition.

The sample characters for various gang members show them with a few skills at rating 2, some with a few skills at rating 3. Now look at the Red Samurai and similar sample characters, tell me which one a PC is closer to by the numbers.

SR has inflated the skill levels of gang members when compared to real life, and it still has them rocking 2's in their area's of specialty with the odd 3 and every once in a great while a 4.

The Ancients, the premier go-gang pretty much in the entire Sixth world and with a large number of elves (who have a longer period of time to become skilled) rate a 5 in vehicle skills. These are people who are riding all day every day, who only take the best, and who have a far older than normal membership.

And they still rate at a level that the average PC runner team would class as acceptable for a rigger.

I'm still waiting for an actual quote from the rulebook that you refer to, where it says that fresh characters are the creme de la creme of the shadowy world of crime, backstab and no upward progression.

Pages 284-285 of the core rule book on how to create a prime runner.

[Udoshi]

As for being professional, it's all about mindset; not so much about skills.

I think, like anything, your level of professionalism depends on your occupation. It's easier to excel at certain things than it is at other.

a "Professional" magician, for example, has multiple initiations, enough drain resist to not fall over instantly, and more than one bound spirit available at any given time to use if he needs it.

Compare to a "professional" Hacker, who just needs leetskills and good hardware.

[FuelDrop]

My character is a prime runner because I'm playing them. The rest are all beginners, regardless of actual experience, because they're being played by someone else.
Egotistical? Narcissism? I don't know what you mean! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[bannockburn]

Your credibility wanes rapidly when quoting something that is a) referring _clearly_ to NPC prime runner creation and b) _in relation_ to created player characters. Sometimes it really helps to look at the context in which rules are presented. E.g. p. 284-285 are nowhere _near_ the chapter on character creation.
So, an actual quote for you, from page 80, of the same rulebook:

On the other hand, if the group likes high-powered, elite-operative campaigns, they may need 500BP for starting characters.

Now, how would you describe 'high-powered elite operatives' in another word? Prime Runner maybe? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Now, to address the rest of your posting: You state here that Ancient gangers are in the majority over 50 years old and have had time to advance sufficiently to become very elite indeed, while only recruiting the best of the best. I find this highly doubtful. A ganger's life is usually not one that promotes old age. Reeks a bit of elf love, tbh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Your perception of what is an 'acceptable' rigger is, to me, severely skewed as well. But we have already established that your game world is really really different than mine, so that may be where this perception comes from.
Now, another example: Red Samurai Detachment, Tir Ghosts, all from the core book, Triad Lieutenant, standard NPCs, the whole lot of them. ALL have multiple core skills at 5, sometimes even boosted to 6 through ware.
Tough cookies, all around, meant to represent hard opposition. But, in my eyes, by no means 'prime runners'. And I didn't even mention all those NPCs in published adventures and campaigns who would all, according to your definition, qualify as such.

Sorry, I can't support your position.

[All4BigGuns]

@Tippy: You do realize that the "prime runner" from the section of the core rule book you're referring to is different from "Prime Runner" level Shadowrunners, right? I know it can be muddled, but in that section, it's just referring to custom built NPCs rather than stock out of the book NPCs.

Edit- Look at it like the difference between unarmed combat and Unarmed Combat.

[Emperor Tippy]

Your credibility wanes rapidly when quoting something that is a) referring _clearly_ to NPC prime runner creation and b) _in relation_ to created player characters. Sometimes it really helps to look at the context in which rules are presented. E.g. p. 284-285 are nowhere _near_ the chapter on character creation.
So, an actual quote for you, from page 80, of the same rulebook:

Now, how would you describe 'high-powered elite operatives' in another word? Prime Runner maybe? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Prime Runner is a relatively wide category. I use, as a general statement for a primer runner team (what the PC group is) "Has the skills to make a raid on an AAA zero zone facility actually possible, not likely to succeed and still requiring tons of planning and a good dose of luck but still possible." Even playing a Z-zone to the greatest difficulty that can be done under the rules a new build PC team can do that.

For gun bunny's and combat characters my criteria for being listed as a prime runner are "Would the character be at home on a Delta Force/SAS combat team?".

Now, to address the rest of your posting: You state here that Ancient gangers are in the majority over 50 years old and have had time to advance sufficiently to become very elite indeed, while only recruiting the best of the best. I find this highly doubtful. A ganger's life is usually not one that promotes old age. Reeks a bit of elf love, tbh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Look at rating 4 "Go-gang boss". The Ancients require, as a standard, a level of ability higher than the best individuals in other go-gangs.

Your perception of what is an 'acceptable' rigger is, to me, severely skewed as well. But we have already established that your game world is really really different than mine, so that may be where this perception comes from.

Frankly, I usually use Agent's with a good skill soft for my driving needs. It's usually better than wasting a PC's actions driving and can reliably produce the same results in most situations.

Now, another example: Red Samurai Detachment, Tir Ghosts, all from the core book, Triad Lieutenant, standard NPCs, the whole lot of them. ALL have multiple core skills at 5, sometimes even boosted to 6 through ware.
Tough cookies, all around, meant to represent hard opposition. But, in my eyes, by no means 'prime runners'. And I didn't even mention all those NPCs in published adventures and campaigns who would all, according to your definition, qualify as such.

Yes, those are all prime runner level. Look at all the PC's with "was special forces for X corp or nation". The thing is, relatively few individuals of that skill level ever 1) decide to go rogue and act independently and 2) successfully break away from their current organization. Are these people legends? No, but they are far better than most everyone in the shadows.

It's like in real life, one of the most deadly, capable, and dangerous street gangs in the world is Los Zetas. They were a former Mexican Military special operations detachment trained by USSOCOM at Fort Bragg. Even basic military training makes you one of the true elite on the real life streets. Spec Ops makes you the best of the best. An entire spec ops unit, well they would be running all crime at least on a city level.

So when you have a well balanced team covering all critical specialties that is willing to break the law for money, has few morals, and where every single member would be at home on a spec ops team; yes they are prime runners.

Sorry, I can't support your position.

*shrug*
Fine with me.

@Tippy: You do realize that the "prime runner" from the section of the core rule book you're referring to is different from "Prime Runner" level Shadowrunners, right? I know it can be muddled, but in that section, it's just referring to custom built NPCs rather than stock out of the book NPCs.

Edit- Look at it like the difference between unarmed combat and Unarmed Combat.

"Prime Runner" is mentioned a grand total of 24 times in the core book, 22 of those times come in the section of the book I referenced and the other 2 are 1) in the dracoform description and 2) in the index.

If you want to provide a better rules/published reference please do so, but in the core rules my statement is completely accurate (PC's a day out of char gen qualify as prime runners).

[All4BigGuns]

Still not really, to get to the "official standard" for Prime Runner, you have to look at what the Missions considers to be that level (this is the only point where an official stance is taken on the matter), which is either 100 or 150 karma beyond the base 400 BP (can't remember precisely which total, but I know it's one of those). As I said, prime runner in the core book simply refers to NPCs that are custom built by the GM rather than stock published ones.

[Glyph]

Prime runner level can't be defined by points or karma very well, because different specialties have different points that they hit this level on. Plus, you also need to consider gear. Typically, 400 BP lets you create a character who is good at one specialty, and able to function outside of that area - assuming your concept isn't too ambitious.

Looking even at the gimpy sample characters, they have levels of ability much higher than most mooks. They seem to either be people who have been doing this for awhile, to the point that they are on the verge of breaking into the big time, or they are big fish in a small pond (such as the enforcer or the sprawl ganger), ready to move up to shadowrunner status.

I think it takes a good bit of careful craftsmanship, and some tactical ability as a player, to make a character who starts out as a prime runner - but I also think it can be done. Most runners will probably start out below that level, but they are still a far cry from "beginning" characters in games such as D&D.

The 800 BP character thread that I participated in showed me one thing - 400 BP starting characters can be very powerful, sometimes world-shakingly so, but they still have lots of room to potentially improve.

[Emperor Tippy]

The 800 BP character thread that I participated in showed me one thing - 400 BP starting characters can be very powerful, sometimes world-shakingly so, but they still have lots of room to potentially improve.

Oh, I completely agree.

400 BP is enough to make either a very high end specialist (you can throw out a Mage, Technomancer, or Hacker that is one of the flat out best in the world and close to (if not already) a legend straight from character generation) or a pretty broad generalist. Over time and as you improve the generalists will become much better (potentially to the point where they can match what most of the world considers specialists) and the specialists will find their weaknesses and general ability improving (to make a near legend straight out of char gen requires that you dump most everything that isn't part of your specialty).

It takes a ton of BP/Karma to reach the point where a non mage/technomancer can't improve any more; and mage's/technomancers have no max point.

[KarmaInferno]

As I said in the other thread, Prime Runners are defined by what they have accomplished, not by their stats.





-k

[Emperor Tippy]

As I said in the other thread, Prime Runners are defined by what they have accomplished, not by their stats.

And a day out of char gen a PC team can successfully hit a Zero Zone research lab and survive the experience. It's highly unlikely and would require good luck but they have the skills to pull it off.

Go much lower than 400 BP and they simply don't have the skills to make the attempt.

So by your standard the PC's are prime runners (whether or not the players play the characters as if they are prime runners and with the level of professionalism and paranoia expected of that title is an entirely different issue).

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

It's seems like a team of 4 or 5 brand new 400BP characters that have a chance at running a zero zone would have to have a very friendly GM to me.

My personal impression is that new 400BP characters are definitely a few cuts above decent gangers/grunts/corpsec zombies but far from the creme de la creme. Being a Prime Runner© seems like it has at least as much to do w/ the street cred/notoriety and experience of the character as their dice pools.

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