I was wondering about how much Karma is considered to be good. I know that a starting off character (400 BP) has no extra Karma, but how much do you need to be at each of the following levels:

Beginner
Average
Experienced
Good
Prime Runner

Hard to answer, since BP builds can swing so wildly.

I would guesstimate about:

Average 50
Experienced 100
Good 150-200
Prime 250-300

Along with aditional caveats that are not necessarily Karma Dependant - Contacts and Equipment are the big items here. I do not consider a Runner to be "Prime" without at least a couple hundred Contact Points (Loyalty/Connection) worth of Contacts. *shrug*

But those numbers are highly dependant upon the build of the character. In some cases, you might need to add more to each category, dependant upon the build.

But that is just me. *shrug*

You start as an experienced runner. After that, it varies wildly.

You're a prime runner when your street cred is high enough that you're better at being a face without social skills* than starting PC faces (pornomancer excluded).

*Ignoring the limit on bonus dice from street cred, of course....

According to missions you're a prime runner at 150 karma and a legendary runner at 200, right?

Don't Know... Don't play in Missions... *shrug*

You are a prime runner a day out of 400 BP char gen.

As for being professional, it's all about mindset; not so much about skills.

Many, if not most, disagree with this opinion.

IMO, you are not.
For me, 400BP is a starting point. People who just grew out of petty theft or gang violence and start to make a name for themselves on the street. Smart enough to rise above the rest of the scum, if you so will.
Depends on the particular background, of course.

However, as has been mentioned before, BP generated characters tend to vary wildly in terms of specialization or broader skills, so 'Prime Runner' status (if you are so unimaginative that you limit this to a single dice pool) may be attainable even for starting characters. Personally, I find those extremely limited in their play style, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

IMO, karmagen is much better suited to reflect an absolute powerlevel. I think karmagen with free knowledge skill points as in BP gen @ 750 karma tends to produce characters that are good to compare to 500 BP characters and resemble what I imagine as very skilled individuals.

After about 100 karma more, I'd call the characters very good, at 200+ prime runners with names echoing through the global shadows.

Thank you everyone for your quick replies! I very much appreciate it.

And under the rules as they are written in the published core book those individuals are wrong.


If you have any skill at 5 you are already far and away above the scum.

Most real life gang members with years of street experience are rocking a 2 for firearms, a 2 for driving, a 1 for social skills, a 3-4 for Street knowledge, and most everything else at zero.

There is a reason that gang members with even basic military training are hot stuff on the streets. Quite literally, if you can pass boot camp then you are almost certainly a better shot and more physically capable than 99% of the gang members in the US.

When you are throwing down entire skill groups at 3-4 points you are already as far above street level gang bangers as Shadowrunners are above most corporate security forces.

Most people might hit 3 points in a single skill and the associated knowledge skill. 4 points is the guy with years of experience using that skill. 5 points is the guy who is just naturally talented at that skill and has refined that talent through years of constant work and effort. 6 points is pretty much international levels of recognition (have a 6 in anything athletic? That's Olympic gold levels of skill. Have a 6 in social skills? That is US President level. Have a 6 in firearms? That is Secret Service Countersniper level.). 7 points is Michael Phelps in Swimming, Einstein in Physics, Fastjack in hacking, Michael Jordan in basketball.

Take driving, most people in real life wouldn't even rate as rating 1.

The very compressed skill rating table is something of a disservice but it does show how incredibly capable a rank and file runner is.

Half the time your team medic is a world class trauma surgeon who could walk into Johns Hopkins and walk out with a job. Your team driver is a guy who could walk into Ferrari and walk out with a job driving their F1 car.

So yes, you have the skills and knowledge to be a professional shadowrunner a day out of chargen and you aren't simply some exceptional gangbanger. The most exceptional gangbangers barely rate at the level you are competing on in a single skill, much less the half dozen you rate highly on.

Take a look at Ancient Gangers. Those are all Prime Runners according to your (kind of flawed and onetracked, IMHO) definition.
I'm still waiting for an actual quote from the rulebook that you refer to, where it says that fresh characters are the creme de la creme of the shadowy world of crime, backstab and no upward progression.

I'd base it off dice pools instead. An experienced runner has a pool of 14+ in two different fields, a veteran runner has a pool of 14+ in three different fields, and a prime runner has a pool of 16+ in three different fields. Of course, a good amount of contacts are assumed along with that, increasing the further you come.

The sample characters for various gang members show them with a few skills at rating 2, some with a few skills at rating 3. Now look at the Red Samurai and similar sample characters, tell me which one a PC is closer to by the numbers.

SR has inflated the skill levels of gang members when compared to real life, and it still has them rocking 2's in their area's of specialty with the odd 3 and every once in a great while a 4.

The Ancients, the premier go-gang pretty much in the entire Sixth world and with a large number of elves (who have a longer period of time to become skilled) rate a 5 in vehicle skills. These are people who are riding all day every day, who only take the best, and who have a far older than normal membership.

And they still rate at a level that the average PC runner team would class as acceptable for a rigger.


Pages 284-285 of the core rule book on how to create a prime runner.

I think, like anything, your level of professionalism depends on your occupation. It's easier to excel at certain things than it is at other.

a "Professional" magician, for example, has multiple initiations, enough drain resist to not fall over instantly, and more than one bound spirit available at any given time to use if he needs it.

Compare to a "professional" Hacker, who just needs leetskills and good hardware.

My character is a prime runner because I'm playing them. The rest are all beginners, regardless of actual experience, because they're being played by someone else.
Egotistical? Narcissism? I don't know what you mean!

Your credibility wanes rapidly when quoting something that is a) referring _clearly_ to NPC prime runner creation and b) _in relation_ to created player characters. Sometimes it really helps to look at the context in which rules are presented. E.g. p. 284-285 are nowhere _near_ the chapter on character creation.
So, an actual quote for you, from page 80, of the same rulebook:

Now, how would you describe 'high-powered elite operatives' in another word? Prime Runner maybe?

Now, to address the rest of your posting: You state here that Ancient gangers are in the majority over 50 years old and have had time to advance sufficiently to become very elite indeed, while only recruiting the best of the best. I find this highly doubtful. A ganger's life is usually not one that promotes old age. Reeks a bit of elf love, tbh
Your perception of what is an 'acceptable' rigger is, to me, severely skewed as well. But we have already established that your game world is really really different than mine, so that may be where this perception comes from.
Now, another example: Red Samurai Detachment, Tir Ghosts, all from the core book, Triad Lieutenant, standard NPCs, the whole lot of them. ALL have multiple core skills at 5, sometimes even boosted to 6 through ware.
Tough cookies, all around, meant to represent hard opposition. But, in my eyes, by no means 'prime runners'. And I didn't even mention all those NPCs in published adventures and campaigns who would all, according to your definition, qualify as such.

Sorry, I can't support your position.

@Tippy: You do realize that the "prime runner" from the section of the core rule book you're referring to is different from "Prime Runner" level Shadowrunners, right? I know it can be muddled, but in that section, it's just referring to custom built NPCs rather than stock out of the book NPCs.

Edit- Look at it like the difference between unarmed combat and Unarmed Combat.

Prime Runner is a relatively wide category. I use, as a general statement for a primer runner team (what the PC group is) "Has the skills to make a raid on an AAA zero zone facility actually possible, not likely to succeed and still requiring tons of planning and a good dose of luck but still possible." Even playing a Z-zone to the greatest difficulty that can be done under the rules a new build PC team can do that.

For gun bunny's and combat characters my criteria for being listed as a prime runner are "Would the character be at home on a Delta Force/SAS combat team?".


Look at rating 4 "Go-gang boss". The Ancients require, as a standard, a level of ability higher than the best individuals in other go-gangs.


Frankly, I usually use Agent's with a good skill soft for my driving needs. It's usually better than wasting a PC's actions driving and can reliably produce the same results in most situations.


Yes, those are all prime runner level. Look at all the PC's with "was special forces for X corp or nation". The thing is, relatively few individuals of that skill level ever 1) decide to go rogue and act independently and 2) successfully break away from their current organization. Are these people legends? No, but they are far better than most everyone in the shadows.

It's like in real life, one of the most deadly, capable, and dangerous street gangs in the world is Los Zetas. They were a former Mexican Military special operations detachment trained by USSOCOM at Fort Bragg. Even basic military training makes you one of the true elite on the real life streets. Spec Ops makes you the best of the best. An entire spec ops unit, well they would be running all crime at least on a city level.

So when you have a well balanced team covering all critical specialties that is willing to break the law for money, has few morals, and where every single member would be at home on a spec ops team; yes they are prime runners.


*shrug*
Fine with me.


"Prime Runner" is mentioned a grand total of 24 times in the core book, 22 of those times come in the section of the book I referenced and the other 2 are 1) in the dracoform description and 2) in the index.

If you want to provide a better rules/published reference please do so, but in the core rules my statement is completely accurate (PC's a day out of char gen qualify as prime runners).

Still not really, to get to the "official standard" for Prime Runner, you have to look at what the Missions considers to be that level (this is the only point where an official stance is taken on the matter), which is either 100 or 150 karma beyond the base 400 BP (can't remember precisely which total, but I know it's one of those). As I said, prime runner in the core book simply refers to NPCs that are custom built by the GM rather than stock published ones.

Prime runner level can't be defined by points or karma very well, because different specialties have different points that they hit this level on. Plus, you also need to consider gear. Typically, 400 BP lets you create a character who is good at one specialty, and able to function outside of that area - assuming your concept isn't too ambitious.

Looking even at the gimpy sample characters, they have levels of ability much higher than most mooks. They seem to either be people who have been doing this for awhile, to the point that they are on the verge of breaking into the big time, or they are big fish in a small pond (such as the enforcer or the sprawl ganger), ready to move up to shadowrunner status.

I think it takes a good bit of careful craftsmanship, and some tactical ability as a player, to make a character who starts out as a prime runner - but I also think it can be done. Most runners will probably start out below that level, but they are still a far cry from "beginning" characters in games such as D&D.

The 800 BP character thread that I participated in showed me one thing - 400 BP starting characters can be very powerful, sometimes world-shakingly so, but they still have lots of room to potentially improve.

Oh, I completely agree.

400 BP is enough to make either a very high end specialist (you can throw out a Mage, Technomancer, or Hacker that is one of the flat out best in the world and close to (if not already) a legend straight from character generation) or a pretty broad generalist. Over time and as you improve the generalists will become much better (potentially to the point where they can match what most of the world considers specialists) and the specialists will find their weaknesses and general ability improving (to make a near legend straight out of char gen requires that you dump most everything that isn't part of your specialty).

It takes a ton of BP/Karma to reach the point where a non mage/technomancer can't improve any more; and mage's/technomancers have no max point.

As I said in the other thread, Prime Runners are defined by what they have accomplished, not by their stats.





-k

And a day out of char gen a PC team can successfully hit a Zero Zone research lab and survive the experience. It's highly unlikely and would require good luck but they have the skills to pull it off.

Go much lower than 400 BP and they simply don't have the skills to make the attempt.

So by your standard the PC's are prime runners (whether or not the players play the characters as if they are prime runners and with the level of professionalism and paranoia expected of that title is an entirely different issue).

It's seems like a team of 4 or 5 brand new 400BP characters that have a chance at running a zero zone would have to have a very friendly GM to me.

My personal impression is that new 400BP characters are definitely a few cuts above decent gangers/grunts/corpsec zombies but far from the creme de la creme. Being a Prime Runner© seems like it has at least as much to do w/ the street cred/notoriety and experience of the character as their dice pools.

.02

Again, not by what they CAN do, but what they have ACCOMPLISHED.

Like, building a reputation, being responsible for a significant historical event, achieving widespread fame, gaining notoriety for particular styles of work, etc.

Can this be achievable in character generation? Sure, if the DM allows it.

Most games out there don't. You start as a relatively new runner and have to build your legend from there. You don't normally just get to write it into your starting back story.

There are plenty of iconic Prime Runners in the book who I KNOW I can outdo in every way stat-wise in chargen. What makes them Prime Runners is what they've done in the Shadowrun world, not their dice pools.



-k

Oh they would certainly need a hefty expense account, a ton of planning time, and a good dose of luck but they have the ability to break, bypass, or co-opt every rating, type, and level of defenses available in the game.

Much under 400 BP and that ceases to be the case (they simply aren't good enough).


For me one of the problems is I fundamentally disagree with street cred/notoriety as a system artifact. It's great and makes a ton of sense for street level games and the like but it really fails for professional level games. The legendary spies are all ones that only became legends years (if not decades) after they left the game and the information went public, even in intelligence circles.


What they have accomplished only matters if they make that info public. That is in fundamental opposition to the primary purpose of Shadowrunners (be deniable, be untraceable, you do not exist, you never existed, your runs did not happen, etc.).


Being a celebrity is in fundamental opposition to what it means to be a Shadowrunner.


Wrong game, well unless you like raiding dungeons in Shadowrun.


Not really. They are prime runners because they had the skills to pull off those feats. The PC's also have those skills, whether that is general knowledge or not is irrelevant to whether or not the PC's are prime runners.

I don't think you have the same definition of "Prime Runner" than most other folks.

And there is a difference between NPC Prime Runners and PCs.

NPC ones are merely more memorable than the standard mooks the players run across. They can be of all power levels, from laughably underpowered to impossibly badass.

By that metric, I suppose you could say starting PC are Prime Runner equivalent. They just have to be unique and memorable to qualify, regardless of their skills and stats.

As far as fame, part of the Shadowrun genre includes making a reputation for yourself. "Street Name" used to be right on the character sheet. As much as serious-serious trenchcoats and mirrorshades are a part of the game, so is pink mohawk. They're both inextricably linked to the setting. Pretty much all of the legendary Runners in the fiction are celebrities to some degree, even if it's only to other people in the shadows.



-k

Ok I'm going to hate myself for doing this but i'm going to chime in.


First off: Missions should probably not be the baseline as missions is repeating/cannabalizing other terminology. So saying because missions says so Prime runners aught to be starting runners plus 150 is kind of arbitrary, because ultimately it was a cool term that someone decided to use, not an actual mechanical baseline.

Mechanically speaking Tippy is, once again, exactly right. A prime runner is defined by the book as someone on the PC's level, so mechanically the term is almost devoid of meaning as it points out right there that prime runners arn't going to necessarily be runners.

Simply put mechanically: A prime runners is an NPC with their own individual stat block and edge pool.

Thematically? The term is extremely subjective and depends highly on what you want the criteria to be. Is the criteria to be tracked at a certain level in the sixth world? Is it to be a member of Jackpoint? For me a prime runner implies you've reached enough notoriety in Shadow circles where you or your team start to get sought out by name/reputation even if only on a city level.

a Professional Runner doesn't care, who his team mate is. A Prime Runner doesn't need team mates.


I deem a guy with 25 dice in shooting sniper rifles not a professional runner. Just a prime sniper.

Does this make all riggers prime runners by defult?

The prime runner knows how much help he's going to need and knows where to find it and how to get it.

Really. People come with stat blocks for you? Get help. Now.

Also, the core problem seems to be there is no viable, sustainable definition of 'Prime Runner' in the rules, since the core book says one thing and every other book says something else.

It sounds more like you're equating spies to runners with need to secrecy of actions, which is a fairly silly notion. There's a number of reasons why the comparison falls flat. First of all, spies work in the employ of a single entity. A runner does not work for a single entity. Thus, while the runner may be doing things just as dangerous as the spy the runner has the benefit of the fact that since he's good the entity he just hit will want to hire him. The problem is that a runner needs to have an established resume to be considered for the top end jobs. So if his accolades are not known to people then he's not going to get those top end jobs. Spies do not have this problem since they work for a single entity.



A deniable asset merely means there is no trail to link the asset to you. It means you can deny any involvement with it and have the evidence to disprove accusations that you did. Whether the asset is high or low profile doesn't matter since the deniable portion of it is all on the employer's side. It's the one that is making sure to cover up the money trail so it's not linked to those deniable assets. If the employer fails to CHA then that's the employer's fault.



No. It's not. I point to Jack the Ripper as an example of this. Jack the Ripper is extremely famous. Ask someone on the street and they'll tell you he was a serial killer. However, no one knows who he is. This is something that is talked about within the reputation rules in the fact that the mechanics of reputation apply to the persona.

Yeah, me too. I would consider a Prime Runner team the one you would call when you needed something from a zero zero zone reliably, every single time.

I tend to go with the Missions guidelines as to my definition of a Prime Runner, so 400 BP plus 150 karma. The mages will have initiated a few times and raised their Magic, got a wider range of spells and non-magic skills, more foci and maybe a small amount of cyber. As well as a 6 + spec in his weapon of choice, a sammie will have other weapons and select secondary skills at 6. He will have got that 4th IP and a few vehicle skills, because with his Reaction, why not? Etc Etc ...

Saying that, Tippy's group of 7 specialists does seem to cover all the bases quite well, so as a team they are perhaps punching above their weight. They had a ton of cash and a military jet to do the job, but that simstar hotel extraction was the sort of heist Prime Runners would be called to pull off, and they certainly did it in style ...

I would not say that Emperor Tippy's Group pulled that run off with Style... But it was, at the very least, effective.

"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya




To me, professionalism is how you conduct yourself in situations you could not control. Sometimes, it means shooting things dead. Other times, it's a bit of fast talking or stealth. All in reaction to an unplanned for situation.

But you don't understand: There's never a situation Tippy can't control. He has armed surveillance drones when he goes to the Stuffer Shack, with an extraction team around the block. Just in case. (I believe that was almost the exact scenario in his own words, in the speed run topic.)

Personal opinion? That's not a prime runner. That's wanna-be runner with a Mitt Romney-sized bank account and too many spy and hacker movies on his trid player.

My twoyen: Does "prime runner" have a mechanical watermark? The more I read and reread 4A, the less I think that's true. There's equivalent professional ratings... But "prime" is a status that is earned through RP, or granted to you through possession of the Matrix of Leadership.

Sorry to say, it doesn't take a friendly GM. If your players are good enough at gaming the system, your 400BP "newbies" can easily sail through a zero-zone, especially if the GM isn't as skilled at gaming the system when creating NPC's.

Dice pool size is really the only measure of power in SR4.5. If your starting characters are throwing 15-20+ dice in their main pools right out of the gate, mechanically they are the best of the best. If your 800BP "Prime runner" isn't rolling nearly as many dice, then that NPC is going to get steamrolled, period.

Thats the other common mistake I see people make comparing prime runners. Its not JUST about size of the dice pool. Teamwork Matters. Who cares if the other guy has got 800BP when its a five vs 1.

Maybe I have had particularly vindictive and/or devious GMs over the years, but w/ the rare exception, overly min-maxed characters are usually either rejected or met w/ evenly min-maxed and significantly higher powered opposition or fiated/gimped via houserule to hell and back. Any GM that doesn't either stop the madness or escalate in kind and allows a team of noob characters to sail through a zero zone unscathed is either doing it wrong or running a Santa Claus campaign IMHO, but whatever floats your boat.


The general point for me was that it's not just the character's mechanical capabilities that determine whether they deserve the prime runner label.

I agree with Sid Nitzergoblin, the way I GM starting 400BP players would be eaten for breakfast if they tried to take on a zero-zero zone extraction or datasteal. Perhaps a large group of complementary 400BP specialists might stand a chance if they used Tippy-esque planning and got hold of some expensive toys and/or had an insider, but even then it would probably end badly. YMMV, but I guess Cain and Tippy have a different definition than me of what zero-zero zones are, and different experience of how intelligently the opposition in them are played by the GM.

So what does make a Prime Runner? As Karma Inferno said, reputation. As TJ said, contacts and gear, the likes of which make starting 400BP characters green with envy. As I said, high ranking skills (or DPs if you insist) in your primary and a number of secondary skills, and decent DPs in a wide range or tertiary skills. For awakened characters, a number of initiations under their belt and a high Magic rating. For combat characters at least 3 but probably 4IP.

To me, the difference between a Prime Runner sammie and a 400BP Automatics 6 specialist is in versatility. Disguised as a security guard in a zero-zero zone, he can use Con to deflect the security guard who says "I've never seen you around here before.". He can use Hardware to work on that maglock while the hacker is busy spoofing and deleting video feed from those drones you just encountered. He can let sail with his grapple gun and climb up the building to break in at a weaker spot than the front door.

I guess what I am saying is that my definition of Prime Runner PC is of someone at a much higher level of ability, reputation and connection than starting PCs, and one skill at 6 and a few secondaries at 4 does not a Prime Runner make, at least not in my book.

Dice pools are one of the measures of combat effectiveness - the others are damage soaking (which could be argued also falls under "dice pools") and having multiple initiative passes. Having supporting skills such as infiltration, perception, etc. can also make a difference. But with a fixed TN of 5, dice rolls can go all over the place. My experience has been that 20 dice will get you successes more consistently over the long run, but an enemy with 12 dice is still a threat - one good roll on their part, along with a bad one on yours, and you can be in serious trouble.

Getting in and out of a zero zone is something that you need more than just high dice pools for. 20 dice for pistols, by itself, is not enough. You need an entire team of optimized characters played by clever players - either that, or some of the cheesier rules exploits out there. Depends a lot on the GM, too. Some GMs are devious bastards in their own right, but others lack the experience to keep rules-savvy players from steamrolling over them.

If those 5 are 100m away from me with SMGs, I'm not too terribly concerned.

To be considered "professional," you need 42 karma and a towel.

First of all, if everyone is having fun, you're not "doing it wrong". What happened to me at any number of Missions tables were the characters who were min/maxed beyond everyone else, and my ability to respond hampered by the Missions restrictions. In home games, if certain players got a hold of new rules before I did, they could twist them out of shape. I don't game with those players anymore, but if I wanted to run a fair and fun game, I can't yank the rug out from under them in the middle of a session.

Second of all, are you saying I'm "doing it wrong" when I can't keep up with the escalating arms race and power creep of Sr4.5? It's all about gaming the system, and whoever can do it best has the advantage. I'm about to take personal offense at your remark, because I sure as hell ain't a Monty Haul GM, and I take unbrage at your insinuation.


Tactics matter some, but mostly it's who can put the most dice on the table, wins. Teamwork doesn't mean much in SR4.5, except as it pertains to tactics.

I meant no offense to anyone whatsoever, I was merely stating my subjective opinion as a player and was specifically saying it takes all kinds at the end. Let your new team of 400BP characters fly to Vladivostok, kidnap Buttercup, and blow up the EVO compound in it's entirety on your introductory adventure, as long as you and your players have fun it's all good. (The preceding scenario was intentional hyperbole not meant as an implication that that's the type of games you or anyone else in this thread runs...) I could see myself having fun in that type of game for a few runs as well. I think I'm generally more drawn to solid character concepts w/ organic progression of the scale of content from talented noob runners doing lowsec smash and grab jobs against A or AAs, to established pros who might start running against AAAs on the periphery, to the badassest of the badass raping zero zones.

My personal experience is that a GM has complete control over what they allow in their game and final go/no go authority over the characters/equipment/power gamer tactics that they'll allow. I completely agree that there seem to be a number of potentially broken systems and subjective loopholes in SR4A. As a player, I totally understand if a GM wants to fix or eliminate the parts they see as broken at their discretion. If you have players that don't respect that right, I'm sorry for you.

Questionable GMing unless the GM states in advance that he doesn't want characters above a specific power level.


Flat out horribly bad GMing. The GM's job is to run the world, not act as an active god going out of his way to fuck over the players. He should not help out the players but he also shouldn't alter the opposition unless IC the opposition comes across information that would cause them to change their tactics. Whether you are a team of street kid runners with no ware and no skill or ability above three or whether you are a team of elite legends loaded to the gills with delta grade ware and with no skill below five, the opposition at any given facility should be identical. If the first team tries to run against anything except a street level facility then they need to get beyond lucky (as in loaded dice levels of lucky) to survive the run, if the second team tries to run against a street level facility then the opposition needs to be playing with loaded dice to manage a win.

Houserules should never be instituted during play and when made between games the GM should allow a near total rebuild of any character effected by the rules change.


Who said anything about noob characters? Just out of character generation runners are no noob's. They are, to a man, highly trained, highly experienced, professionals of one stripe or another. They had to have been so to gain the skills and resources that they have. They might be new to the shadows and running but they aren't generally inexperienced. The players might be and might play their characters to less than their potential, but the characters aren't incapable and should not be treated IC like they are.

It's also not the GM's job to stop the madness of escalate. It's the GM's job to run the world, nothing more and nothing less. If the GM turns it into a GM vs. player game then he has failed spectacularly. If the GM kills a character it should be because that is how the world reacted to their actions, not because the GM did anything directly aimed at challenging or killing that player.


It's the only objective means of determine such.

Of course: a towel is a fantastically useful device!

This is exactly the way I was describing it should happen.


Again, all of the scaling happens ahead of the runs. The GM creates the world and defines the type of game you're going to be playing based upon varying degrees of input/feedback from the players prior to character creation. If people want to run mega-optimized/broken games, go for it. I personally don't find a huge power balance in favor of the PCs or NPCs all that fun in play. If others like it that way, go for it. I was in no way advocating for fudging dice rolls mid-stream or houseruling mid-session but I have no problem w/ a GM upping the challenge level of the opposition for the next session if their attempt at balancing the last session didn't quite hit the mark.

I agree that the relative power of the opposition between given types of facility should scale somewhat consistently, but the noob team shouldn't be hitting zero zones and the prime team shouldn't be hitting single A low-sec facilities/objectives, not from just a dice pool mechanics perspective but from an RP perspective as well. The Johnson that hires a team on their first run to hit a AAA zero zone either gets incredibly lucky or gets what he deserves (as does the new team that takes the job).


In my type of game, 400BP characters aren't already masters of the universe. Sounds like in your type of game they are. Not sure how productive it is to argue about preferences or opinions at this point.


So runs aren't supposed to challenge the players? Aren't the players challenging the GM by trying to min-max their characters and squeeze every last bit of munchkin power out of their build to hit 25DP straight out of character creation and/or make every single countermeasure he has planned meaningless? There's no right answer here IMO, it all comes down to how the GM and the players like to play the game.


Like most other things, I don't really see it as an objective question w/ one absolutely right answer. Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one.