Concealed Carry, So what are you bringing to the party? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Gotti]

What weaponry do your runners typically carry on standard walk-around town times?

I typically, for a "samurai" or "gun-bunny", carry a heavy pistol in concealable holster(a paddle holster or a shoulder rig), a light pistol and/or machinepistol(also in a shoulder rig) in concealable holster. A survival knife, or folder or similar tool. A few grenades. Two wallets(each with seperate identification), and reloads for my weapons. A cell phone. Cigerettes and a lighter/matches. Condoms.

It's served me very well in the past. My typical wepaons are Predator, Ceska Skorpian and Fichetti 500a(THE primiere choice for deep carry). The Fichetti has made it in with me pretty far, while I tend to turn in the Predator and ceska if I think it's going to be risky getting them past secrutiy.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Just walking around town? Maybe a concealed pistol in a quick-draw holster and a secure jacket if it's a rough part of town.

[Firewall]

Tres chic, long-coat and a Beretta 101-T in a conceled holster. Every inch the sarariman. (he is ex-Renraku, so he knows how to pull it off)

For a night on the town, he includes 'the briefcase'. Deck or an SSM-3, depending on requirements. (his role is decker / sniper)

[Pthgar]

My Adept carries a Heavy Pistol in a concealed shoulder holster, and a SuperSquirt II loaded with Gamma-Scopolomine in an kle holster.

[Abstruse]

Actioneer line and a concealed silenced Browning Ultra-Power with five spare clips if it's a rough neighborhood or there's a good chance there'll be trouble (meet with a Johnson), and FFBA half suit with Tres Chic clothes and the Actioneer long coat plus the nice Browning mentioned above if it'll be less likely to be trouble (concert, dinner date, etc). What? I like to dress nice...

The Abstruse One

[Kakkaraun]

My characters almost always /start out/ on street lifestyles (what can I say, I like playing myself :)), so...everything.

Heh.

Colt Manhunter, a couple of extra clips, secure jacket, switchblade.

[Wireknight]

I think my character's maximum concealed carry arsenal consists of...

A silenced light pistol under the left arm, dart pistol under the right arm, a spare magazine for each, a MGL-6(small of back or ankle, depending on your interpretation of the weapon's profile), a half-dozen densiplast throwing knives, a tactical folding knife, hardliner gloves, two lightly weighted throwing spikes, a pair of forearm snap blades, a pair of folding boot knives, a pair of collapsible densiplast tonfas, a collapsible staff, and maybe a small explosive device or two, such as quarter-kilogram C-XIII shaped charges.

[broho_pcp]

I just built a troll ganger (80 b.p.) who carries a stick and wears clothing.

(the idea was H. of V's.)

[Siege]

Eek, you people scare me.

For every day wear? Like, the corner pub or grocery shopping?

Every day
Colt Manhunter, three mags (1 loaded, two spare)
concealed holster (shoulder rig, hip, cross-hip, jacket lining)
tactical light
multi-tool
trauma patch
cell phone
secure jacket (+ FFBA if likely trouble)
forearm guards and/or hardliner gloves

Concealed carry, expecting trouble
subvocal mike (if adept)
microtransceiver
silencer
pinches of c-4 or c-12 (if not corporate area)
grapple line
survival knife

Carried occasionally if need expected
backpack
medkit (it sounds strange, but it makes "hey, I'm an off-duty medic" more beliveable)
microtronics toolkit ("Sorry officer, but sometimes a patient has 'ware that needs stabilizing...")

*Although this conversation does spawn an interesting point -- given the dangerous nature of a shadowrunner's usually brief life, is (s)he ever really willing to walk around without armor and some form of unusual gear?

Off-duty cops almost always carry a weapon, just in case...

-Siege

Edit: Either remote or wire detonators, should explosives be required

[Gotti]

Excellent.

Now, further along the line. What does your character have in the trunk of his/her car if you have one?

Me, typically an americar or other cheap junk-mobile(nothing too flashy) with an assault rifle in the trunk, lotsa ammo for said assault rifle. Grenades. Shotgun in the passenger comparment. Ceska under the seat. Armour. A camos-suit, or more(preferably urban, southeastern forest, and a southern plains patterns). Flares. flashlight. Duct tape. Carton of cigerettes. Blankets, change of clothes etc.

I got to the ride when it get's bad. :D

[Wireknight]

20x83mm anti-materiel rifle, broken down, with ten rounds of armor piercing incendiary ammunition.

And a spare tire.

[Neon Tiger]

Well it depends on my char, but my main char, Maelstrom, only carries a kris and long coat + formfitting. (And 2 credsticks, 1 real, 1 fake.) He really doesn't need anything more, because with Sorcery/Spellcasting 6/12 and spells like Manabolt, Stunball, Lightning Bolt, Fireball and Armageddon, he can transform into a walking artillery platform in an instant. 8)

[sidartha]

My last character walked around with a Slivergun in a conceal quick draw holster, 1 spare mag, FFBA, armored suit or Securetech longcoat, Pocket Secretary, fake ID, cigs+light.
In the Porche Winter's trunk :P he had a Savior Medkit and another fake ID.
At home for night-of-the-run use only was a Runthenium cloak various electronic gear, a dart pistol w/silencer and a spare mag, an HK227S w/three spare mags, Battletak Master Unit, and so on and so forth.
Basically if jumped on the street and the fight is not decided in one combat turn then he runs away and comes back tooled up. carrying an arsenal down the street is a good way to attract unwanted attention.

[Solstice]

carry at all times (Japanese female sam/sniper/b&e/assassin):
tres chic suit
ffba (2nd skin line)
auctioneer
2 x custom designed heavy pistols (10M dmg, MAD undetectable, conceal 7)
2 x cougar fine blades
certified credstick with 15,000 on it
misc funds in color/script
cell phone/pda
Drug known only as "J". Interrogation drug,


In car/bike:
Barret sniper rifle heavily modified
2 x Ares monokatanas dikoted
gas grenades

[Eyeless Blond]

Yeesh, and I thought I was being over-paranoid carrying around a Secure Long coat and a Slivergun in a concealable holster as street clothes. How can you guys carry two pistols around w/ three mags each anyway? I take it your GMs aren't that anal about encumberance, right?

Btw, don't you get odd looks wandering around the Barrens in tres chic clothing? Isn't that just inviting gangers to mess with you?

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Smiley]

On person: Cougar Fineblade (Dikoted, of course), Browning Ultra-power, many, many, throwing knives.

In the car: everything else i can concievably fit in it.

Mostly, it's the tres chic over some FFBA and a long coat over it. Sunglasses/smartgoggles, too.

[Solstice]

[Solstice]

[Smiley]

[mcb]

My rigger when away from his rig carries a Colt single action army in 45LC. In a left handed cross draw holster worn behind him for easy right had draw from under his long duster while keeping it out of sight behind him. There's and extra 18 rounds in loops on the belt for reloads. When the $H!T hits the fan he grabs his trusty SxS 12 gage and a handfull of buckshot. Yah he does wear snake skin ropers, his belt buckle is the size of a small salad plate and he wears a worn out straw hat like Tobby Keith's.

mcb

[broho_pcp]

Normal day life I usually wear a ffhb suit, normal clothing and will have a knife/ext. baton/nunchaku/shock gloves; depending upon my best skill. I prefer to walk around and rely on my wits.

[Arethusa]

Good lord. That's one gigantic air intake.

[edit]

mcb, I do believe you are positively stylish.

[Solstice]

interesting gear choices and a neat character concept. I personally would not use such outdated weaponry. This is 2063 omae, speed kills.

Single action lol!

[Solstice]

[kevyn668]

Pocket knife, pack of gum, and a smile.

:P

[Eyeless Blond]

One good thing about single action pistols is that one shot is generally all you need. Those things usually pack massive firepower.

Another good thing about single-shot weapons (which SR sadly doesn't deal with) is misfires and such, which happen much less often on reliable single-shot weapons.

[Arethusa]

Actually, .45LC doesn't hit much harder than a modern day .40S&W. It's more a style thing than anything else.

And, yeah, is sad that weapon reliability is ignored, but since I've never seen a system for it that even approached elegance, that's just what you get.

[blakkie]

It isn't ignored completely, just downplayed a lot. EX and EX-EX ammunion destroys the weapon and can injury the shooter on all 1's. It really is a game speed issue, unless you can think of a really smooth way to simulate reliabily of SA/BF/FA breech jams and stuff?

[Solstice]

not to get off on a tangent but IMO by 2060s the whole pistol design thing should be pretty much at a point where malfunctions with normal ammo are nonexistant.

I'll pull a couple examples from today:

Torture tests are favorite activites of the gun industry I remember one such test many years back featuring the Ruger P series semi auto pistol. They fired 100,000 round through it without a malfunction. THey also froze it with liquid nitrogen, ran over it with an SUV, dumped sand in it etc etc. they had virtually no malfuntions.

Also I know this was done with Glocks when trying to get police contracts. The sales rep would throw the guns down the hall into the concrete, park trucks on top of them, throw them in the mud, wipe them off load and fire, dump sand etc in em.


One other thing is I believe that guns in 2060s use caseless ammo which eliminates 99% of the window in which malfunctions happen since there is no slide to cycle or shell ejected, no shell to get stuck, no ejector to break off or not grab the case rim etc etc etc.

In closing, i think with pistols/shotguns that malfuntions are virtually non existant

[kevyn668]

The caseless/cased thing is still being debated....Isn't it?

Seems like it depends on your GM. Of course it could just have been mine...when I had one.

[blakkie]

[mcb]

[Solstice]

well even the greatest design in the world can fail if it's not operated/cleaned/maintained in the recommended manner.

Don't you think I was assuming proper operation/maintenance?

And yes even pump shotguns can malfunction (even though none of my 3 ever have) but you should agree that the conditions need to be pretty extreme for that to happen or a complete ass trying to shuck it.

No need to say more I think I made my point.

[blakkie]

[Solstice]

ahem. Don't try to use the straw man on me.

I didn't say "ideal" conditions. I meant "not extreme". There is a huge difference.

Allow me to reiterate as there seems to be some confusion: Any production pistol in the 2060s (with the possibly exception of puzzlers and hold out pistols) can function flawlessly under normal duty cycles (combat etc). Based on history and current trends, a pistol in the 2060s would need to be subjected to EXTREME conditions (such as acid, liquid nitrogen, extreme crushing force etc) for extended periods of time, conditions as such, that are rather unlikely to occur in the course of normal use and most of them will probably still fire reliably.

Remember this is just MO based on what I've read, your game can be whatever u want it to be.

They didn't conduct torture tests in a white room use your head dude.

[Arethusa]

[John Campbell]

My usual off-duty gear is a Securetech jacket, sometimes with my Browning MaxPower in a concealed holster and survival knife in boot, depending on the neighborhood.

Plus a whole list of illegally high-Force combat spells. Sorcerers have all sorts of advantages in weapon concealability.

[blakkie]

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I think a lot of the pistols in the shadowrun world would malfunction a whole lot, actually. Think about it. Most weapons are produced by Ares or someone with greatly similar corporate interests. Ares is also in charge of security in a lot of situations. They know exactly which weapons commonly make it to the street. I imagine most of the market for things like Ares Predators comes from low-lives like shadowrunners, who aren't really going to be taking advantage of a factory warrantee. If I were Ares, I'd purposely sell defective equipment. On one end, I'd be making sure that a lot of my opposition was using weaponry that wasn't reliable, and on the other end, my big worry would be liability. Only it wouldn't, because as a megacorp, I'd be immune to consumer protection laws. The way I see it, weapon reliability in the shadows would be a victim of the Class War.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Have you seen the number of companies in SR that produce guns? It's not just Ares. Have you seen how often PCs will buy a 2000 :nuyen: gun because it sounds cooler or has a slightly better conceal/clip/damage/etc. than another gun?

If Ares made faulty products, it would become known, and their guns wouldn't sell. They might be economically fine, but then they also wouldn't have as impressive of a market share. Would you rather work for a corp that makes the best guns, and issues them to you, or a corp that makes faulty guns but tells you that they added those flaws to the street version and you are getting one that works?

[Gotti]

So now, what do you keep in your safe-house?

For me, weapons kit, weights, computer, stacks of manuals and books, lots of paper, a dry erase board, stockpile of food, boxes of ammunition and a number of firearms. Alternative IDs.

I also maintain quite a few of these safe-houses, as they make it easier to survive.

[gknoy]

[Solstice]

That argument is totally unfounded. If their firearms were not superb (which there is much literature to suggest that they are nothing but) they would not be the top arms maker. One does not get to the top by flooding the market with inferior crap. Take for instance Berreta or Bennelli or any of the other quality gun makers.

blakkie if your pump is malfuntioning from something like that I would get a different gun. I've had one of my Mossbergs in numerous bad situations from Alaska to the Oregon coast and it's not failed to fire/function once.

[Firewall]

[Solstice]

[moosegod]

To be back on track-

Brawling 6 and a bunch of Combat Spells +3 dice. Dragonslayer trolls rockzor.

[Smiley]

How was that back on track?

[moosegod]

CCW, not rambling about weapon malfunctions.

[kevyn668]

Hey Gotti--Um, why a "dry erase board?"

AND (b/c I just couldn't resist)

Why would Ares, the (seemedly) #1 weapons manufacturer and distributor in the world, holder of numerious national military contracts, and parent corp of KE produce subpar weapons?

Moreover, if they were intended to be sub par in canon, there is a real lack of rules to govern the "sub-par Ares manufactured weapons."

Now, if youre the GM and that's your gritty plott twist....I salute you, sir. Your villiany surpasses even my own. :vegm:

[Gotti]

Wh ya dry-erase? Because monitors are expensive, and it helps for brainstorming and coming up with plans.

[CardboardArmor]

Sir, I commend you for the dry erase idea. I'll have to steal it now, though.

[Smiley]

It's also handy for a rousing game of Pictionary when you find yourself between runs.

[Gotti]

Exactly. Or inane comments.

[Smiley]

Or maybe a nice illustration of you kissing my ass. :P

[Shadow]

In today’s world weapons rarely malfunction. It is a myth of the movies when the riffle jams at a critical moment. 4 years in the army and probably 20 thousand rounds through my M-16 and it malfunctioned a total of one time.

My H&K .45 which I have probably put 2 thousand rounds through has never, ever malfunctioned. On top of that, all the guns I have fired in my whole life, I can't recall a single problem. And I shoot a lot more than the average guy. And yes, I understand about battlefield conditions, but if you give a damn about your weapons those conditions will have very little affect if any at all. You keep your weapons clean. If you are slugging through the muck you make damn sure your riffle/pistol isn't.

As for what my characters carry,

Colt Manhunter or H&K USP Match in a shoulder rig.
Cougar knife if they know how to use it. FFBA III and a secure long coat for sure. Some com. equipment if possible. And a couple of mags of extra ammo.

[CardboardArmor]

I carry no less than two katanas, a ninja-to, a full load of fifteen shiruken, five aerodynamic HE grenades, and frequently and obscenely flaunt my illegal cybernetics but nobody sees me because I'm such a pimptastic cyborg ninja. Oh, and I have my FFBA III on with the gloves, hood, AND boots because with my Lined Long Coat, nobody would totally notice it.

Now that is sarcasm.

Without being sarcastic...Regular clothing, a shoulder rig or such with a light pistol of some sort and a couple of clips of spare ammo, and a Secure Jacket.

[Shadow]

[CardboardArmor]

Yep. And the no-daichi. Did I mention my character was also Japanese? I think I should.

Anyway...EVERYTHING in my concealed gear that I can dikote is probably dikoted, too. Because I love Dikoting. It's so awesome and makes my katanas do more damage!

[FlakJacket]

It was usually either a Browning Max-Power or a Narcojet pistol in a concealable holster under a shirt or coat. A folding baton and one of the martial arts, usually brawling, at something like skill level three or four in case I needed to whack someone over the head without having to resort to a gun. And armour-wise, armoured clothing, Form-fitting Body Armour 2 and a jacket of some kind if it was cold or wet out.

[Zazen]

[Arethusa]

Why, I hear it happened in Vietnam and WW2, too. Well, I guess those were just big movie lies propogated by Hollywood. Damn!

[Kakkaraun]

"I think a lot of the pistols in the shadowrun world would malfunction a whole lot, actually. Think about it. Most weapons are produced by Ares or someone with greatly similar corporate interests. Ares is also in charge of security in a lot of situations. They know exactly which weapons commonly make it to the street. I imagine most of the market for things like Ares Predators comes from low-lives like shadowrunners, who aren't really going to be taking advantage of a factory warrantee. If I were Ares, I'd purposely sell defective equipment. On one end, I'd be making sure that a lot of my opposition was using weaponry that wasn't reliable, and on the other end, my big worry would be liability. Only it wouldn't, because as a megacorp, I'd be immune to consumer protection laws. The way I see it, weapon reliability in the shadows would be a victim of the Class War."

Of course. Corps do that today. It's called "planned obscolescense" or something like that. They purposefully produce a certain low percentage of their products to...well...break. Greed.

Oh, and BTW, go read the Shadowtalk for...oi...one of the old gun books. FoF, maybe. Yes, that's it. Check Savalette Guardian. They talk about how some of the pieces are just plain fucked up.

Oh, and by the way, I'd say that a lot of the corps are well aware that some of their items will...fall off the back of a truck, in a bad neighborhood (ie, they put overstock on the street). This might be where many of the ones they know are malfunction-ey end up.

[Solstice]

[Arethusa]

Even though she never fired her weapon and was the subject of massive propaganda, their weapons did jam at critical times.

In fact, weapons jam at critical times on the battlefield fairly often. That's just how it works. If you think differently, you're completely fucking wrong and should go read some books.

[Solstice]

and you should stop letting the degenerates in Hollywood corrupt your sense of reality.

I prefer to make judgements based on experience not what I read in books/see in movies.

[Capt. Dave]

Weapons jam. End of story. Magazine-fed (note I do not say clip...) weapons are more likely to do so than, say, a revolver or bolt-action. Of course, most commonly occuring problems like a jam or double feed can be easily fixed in a matter of seconds, but apparently they aren't teaching that in the Army anymore.

Hear, hear, Solstice. Although I wish I had a Beretta magazine that held 200-300 rounds like in Underworld...

Edit - oh yeah, I carry a custom revolver (10M, 7cy, conc 6, Ceramic 3) in a concealed holster with a (you guessed it) lined coat. FFF 3, secure ultra-vest.
And spirits. Lots of those.

[Arethusa]

Maybe you should give some credit to books written by soldiers who've seen far more combat than you or I are likely ever to. Jams happen, and they happen at the worst of times because no time is a good time for a jam. Do bad movies tend to accentuate this? God yes. But don't write it off as movie bullshit. It happens, and it's very bad when it does.

Can most jams be fixed quite easily? Yes, most can. In combat conditions? Not quite so much. Combat is far less forgiving than shooting on a range or at geese.

[Capt. Dave]

I do give credit, in fact, I was agreeing with you.

EDIT - I see. I was agreeing with solstice on the unbelievability of Hollywood's treatment of firearms, I was not saying they don't jam at critical times.

[imperialus]

[Arethusa]

[Siege]

Eh, it's always more dramatic to have the gun jam timed correctly. Although, I will point out that having any weapon jam at any point when people are shooting at you could be construed as happening at "the worst possible time." :grinbig:

It's the same reason why heroes in Hollywood don't die even when they act stupidly.

Some people call it luck, writers call it creative license. :grinbig:

All the heavy gear or battle-kit my character keeps locked down and generally speaking, not in his daily flat or transport since either are prime for burglary, theft, etc.

-Siege

[Arethusa]

Unless a solid degree of realism has been maintained thus far during the game (or movie or book or whatever media), it can really come off as simply contrived. But, if executed well, I agree, I like what it can do for a narrative and the characters in it. Even the potential threat of a jam really changes things, which is a very good dymanic to have if the game can handle it without bogging down play quite painfully. I've yet to see a way to do this, however.

Also, yeah, was an argument I was going to mention: if you're in combat, any jam happens at an inopportune time. If you're firing your weapon, you absolutely need it to work.

[noname_hero]

One more set of everyday gear:

FFBA 1
Securetech armor clothing (casual, or suit if that is more appropriate)
Morrissey Alta in a concealable holster, loaded with gel rounds
one spare clip of gel and two of Ex ammo
a small monoknife
wrist computer, cellphone, a small backpack or briefcase, real ID (licensed critter hunter, with permit for the gun I carry), some empty datachips and some filled datachips (maps, music, some work-related data), some certified cred

When I expect rough neighborhood or problems:
FFBA 2
armored vest with plates
forearm guards (not always)
cut&puncture resistant gloves (no game stats for these, but sometimes useful anyway)
micro transceiver
rest as above

And of course my magic, I'm a smartlinked combat hermetic with skill incompetence/conjuring.

[Zazen]

[kevyn668]

[CardboardArmor]

I do my best to please.

[Siege]

[Smiley]

[Austere Emancipa...]

In a longer range battlefield, pulling the charging handle certainly isn't a big deal. With many assault rifles your job is even easier if you get a jam, and I doubt there are many ARs in use by major armies in the world that are significantly more difficult to un-jam than an M16.

In CQB, though, getting a jam is a major SNAFU. Consider the times you survive in America's Army: Ops CQB when you get a jam -- and in that game, a jam can be removed in 1.5 seconds flat even while running or diving prone.

I don't want to get into an argument again, though. I just want to bring out the other side of the issue. Sometimes it's a big deal, sometimes it isn't.

[Gotti]

Jams do occur, but much less frequently than is made to seem. Bringing WW2 and Vietnam into the mix is just a completely asanine thing. WW2 weapons were quite a bit less reliable than moddern firearms. In addition, i've read very little about jams(maybe the people whop got'em are dead?).

Jessica lynch, is there NOT a reason to disbelieve the story? It's been changed so much, but i'm hardly interested in that horrible episode.

Now, What do you carry for assaults?

Typically, i work with an ES7, or a T-250. If using the T-250, i frequently carry a smg of some sort(Uzi III or AK-97). I like to have a selection of grenades. Atleast one IR smokey for those really bad times. Knife and any mission specific gear.

[Solstice]

[Gotti]

Ok, that look's bad. But what I'm saying is is there any reason to believe anything about that?

[Rev]

I wonder if americas army uses a realistic frequency of jams. They may well have used real world statistics to decide how often they should occur considering the emphasis on realism in that game.

[mcb]

[Moon-Hawk]

...unless your players insist on their characters firing their pistols "gangster style", i.e. holding them sideways. Then they should jam often. Roll a d6, on a 1 it jams.
This is partly true (it CAN make a pistol jam more often, depending on the pistol) and partly because it's stupid, they're supposed to be professionals, and should damn well fire a gun like someone who's used one before!
/end rant

[Austere Emancipa...]

[gfen]

Both my recent memory characters are mages, so they can make do without carrying weapons.. however.

In regular, routine life he always carried a Walther Palm Pistol in a concealed quickdraw holster, smartlinked (no SL-2 available). Two shots in a short burst equals 6L, and even with a modest throw of six dice (3 skill + 3 combat), I bet I can reach a TN 4 (point blank 2, +4 called shot, -2 SL) enough to give you a mighty rude wakeup call. Especially when your face has no armour on it. :)

Hey, be creative, load alternate ammo. Watch those damage codes go up, up, up.

There's a whole other thread lambasting holdout pistols, but they're excellent at what they are: A last ditch effort.

If he was going somewhere that heavier ordinance was possible, it would be the holdout plus a Ruger Superwarhawk. What, single shot gotcha down? That's OK, I'll connect and do that much more damage than you will double tapping that SA Predator, too. First simple action, I am. Second simple action I shoot. Plus a SL equals to -4 for each shot I make. Extra speedloader or two and I'm good.

A "run," you say? Then in addition to the two above, there was the Enfeld AS7 shotgun, which is very nearly the best one in the game (wanna argue the Franchi SPAS? Go for it, cause trust me, I've been down that road..) for assault duties or a Remington 950 for longer distance work. Through mag-3 I get some serious range and can decide to lob a spell or a slug at 'em. Yes, the WA2100 is better (and I was better with it), but all thigns considered a Rem 950 was vastly cheaper and easier to come by than a WA2100. For ammo, I would carry an extra few mags' worth of loose bullets in the case of the longguns, and for the scattergun a drum of regular, and a magazine or three of gel and/or flechette. Again, magazines with different ammo types to be dictated by the situation, but its always nice to mix and match.

Of course, I just retired him for a Magician's Way Adept. That makes for a different set of skills, but I can still rely on magic to carry me through. He'll have the same holdout rig as above, and for the same reasons, and his second piece is a Viper Slivergun, which we'll explain why in a second.

See, since the gaming focus changed, the conceptualized character changed (and also, I'm used to this DM's style and am able to tailor things to work better in his rather realistic world with the SR abstract combat system. I envisioned this character as far more capable on "shadowruns" and more to the point, stealthy penetrations.

In these situations, in addition to the hold out pistol, then there's also the Slivergun with a mag-3 scope and, if you can argue its stupid for a HP to NOT mount a laser sight under, a LS. People don't think about the sheer usefulness of magnification systems on handguns, but look at any serious racegun and you're assured to find at the very least a big ole reddot on top of it. The slivergun is downright DEADLY. Integral silencer (I mean, if you're making a run, you ARE being stealthy, right? RIGHT??), capable of burst fire, and an unprecedented magazine with thirty rounds! As those ranges increase, the called shot number difference goes down (I mean, everyone min/maxes a little) and I bet lots of your usual opponents aren't going to be wearing helmets. Silent, deadly, and with a mag and laser (or, for those who can, slink'd) accurate. A pair of extra magazines will provide you with all the ammo you should need for damned near run.

OK, OK, so there's times where stealth fails and its time to rock and roll. That's when you break out the AK-97. 38 rounds, cheap, common, efficent. Your choice, gas venting or a sound supressor (although, again, if the assault rifle is out for use, the time for stealth is probably over). Put that bayonet on front, and you have an STR+2/M, +2 reach polearm that you can also smash with the butt to do stun damage, or pop off the bayonet and you've got a knife. Perfect, modular system.

Edit: Oh, yeah. IR smoke and/or flashbangs. One of each, or maybe two of one. Not the most stealthy, but sometimes you've got to cover your retreats.

I am convinced that between the Viper and the AK97/bayonette combo I won't ever need to resort to another weapon. Yeah, there's times where the opposition runs to heavily armoured, so I can swap out that Viper for something that fires regular ammo, but otherwise, I've got stealth, preciscion, and outright firepower all to bear in different ways.

Yeah, this probably wasn't the thread for this, but I'm at work, on lunch, and feel like babbling. Hey, I did cover concealed weapons and someone did mention what do you take on an assault..heh.

[JackWill]

Predators are my primaries and Colt L36s are my backups.

for concealable it depends.. i like to use gernades as a conceable weapon. :grinbig:

[Gotti]

MCB: Then look at MP40s, Thompsons, Greaseguns, StG44s, etc. We can also include the japanese, and italian rifles. Or the Gewher41. Fully-automatic fire places more stress upon an action than bolt or semi-auto(which is effectively automatic, just slower). These stresses may combine with weak springs, a poorly polished bolt, or even a large chunk of asphalt inside the reciever. And with gas-operation, proper maintaince is a necessity.

Yes, much of WW2 era weaponry is very reliable. Then again, most modern guns are VERY reliable. The faults in many weapons are either from age and neglect(1911A1s from WW2 that have a few bolts loose, weak springs, etc), or the ammunition used. I've rarely read a report from Combat Handguns, SOF weapons tests, Handgunner, or Guns And Ammo that reported any sizeable jams. And most of the jams I've heard about have been feed problems.

In the end, I believe shadowrun handles it just fine. In comparison, there's gurps, where most TL7 firearms have a reliability of "crit.", which means they only fire on a critical failure(a roll of 17 or 18 on 3d6) with the skill check. While TL6 firearms have a "crit." or "16" result.

If you want, I can ask my friends who just got back from Iraq how their weapons worked. I'd say they'd have combat experience, jah?

[Arethusa]

Actually, WW2 era weapons, on average, were more reliable than the stuff many nations are currently using. No AR15 rifle will ever equal the legendary reliability of M1 Garand, and the M9 just doesn't compete with M1911A1 in terms of reliability (or stopping power, but that's another debate entirely). That's not to say modern guns jam all the time, but it happens, and SR's neglect of this dynamic removes a fair bit of gritty realism.

As for GURPS, I'm not familiar with what TL7 and 6 mean, so an explanation would be helpful.

Also, would be interesting if you could get their comments on the reliability of their weapons, what they were doing with them, and under what conditions, level of care, etc.

[mcb]

[Clyde]

Regarding jams in Vietnam and World War II (and Korea, the Gulf War, Iraq, etc) it's important to remember that soldiers on the battlefield basically camp outside for months on end. You aren't just running around in dust, or rolling in muck, you are living in it. That day in, day out abuse adds up. More importantly, many of the people fighting in World War II and Vietnam (and most wars) were relatively inexperienced and poorly trained. Plenty were poorly lead as well. After a 20 mile march through steaming, bug/snake/cong/mud infested jungle you'd want to just collapse into a bunk instead of cleaning your weapon, too. Also, ammunition manufactured in war time was frequently subpar: everyone's working double shifts at a plant that used to make sewing machines or some nonsense and half the skilled workers have been called up and replaced with whoever wasn't good enough to get in the army and do something else. Either way, war puts strains on weapons and men that combat doesn't. I don't think it's that important for Shadowrun, but it's get backstory for your mercenary/ex-military character to harass the local urban gunbunnies with :D

[mcb]

Clyde, everything you state is correct and that is what made the M-1 Garand such a remarkable weapon. Despite all those things you stated working against the weapon I have heard in feild reliability estimates during WWII of the M-1 Garand as high at 99.9997% That's only three jams per 10,000 rounds. Not sure how much of that is myth and how much is the truth but I having fired several thousand rounds through a few M-1 Garands I have a tendency to believe it.

Now how did we get this far off topic. :S
mcb

[Snow_Fox]

My main character is a paranormal investigator who works with the police. Her licenced, day to day gun is a colt asp- a light revolver. so she carries but it's not a mnoster to worry the police, like "why does this forensic type woman need to carry a massive heavy pistol?"

[sidartha]

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Luke Hardison]

[Arethusa]

Herald, sidartha: I suppose that SR does such a good job that when I pick up that ganger's pistol that jammed four times before I shot him in the face because he never once cleaned that I then stand a 1/279936 chance of experiencing one of those same jams with his gun? Face it: SR doesn't do it at all. Critical failure is a function of operator failure and sheer chance, not environmental or gun related issues.

[kevyn668]