5E Wish List, Or 'What I want for Christmas'. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Tashiro]

Thinking about SR5, I decided I'd figure out a few things I'd like to see in it.

1) I'd like to see Technomancers following rules more closely to those of Mages, just for ease of play. Follow the same basic ruleset, but tailored to the Matrix, and we're good to go.

2) I'd like to see a more fleshed out section on Astral Space, and what we can do there.

3) I'd like for 'cosmetic' cyberware / bioware, to not have an Essence Cost. Seriously, save Essence Costs for things which are more invasive, and involve 'removing' or 'replacing' parts of the body. If I get cybertattoos, they should have zero impact on my Essence. Also, if you're born with genetic engineering, it shouldn't impact your Essence at all... after all, this IS your astral template. Why the hell would it impact your Magic or Resonance? (After all, you can make a full-blown clone Mage with 6 Essence out of the box in 4E).

4) I would like to see a little more detail on commlinks, what you can put in them and such. A focus on consumer society (apps and the like), and how these work together with the character.

5) I'd like to see the magical paths a bit more divergent, so they stand out a little more.

[Iduno]

1) Simplifying would be good, but something that makes them match the system of the matrix better would make them a lot easier to balance.

2) Agreed, as well as resonance space. Probably in the 5E Street Magic and Unwired.

3) Agreed, except for geneware. The essence cost is mostly balancing for mages and TMs.

4) Sure, but write the matrix rules first, then the fluff, then tweak each so they actually match.

5) Agreed. They made them way too similar. It cuts down on rules, but it also cut out the flavor and trade-offs. That might also be (part of) why spirits seem so overpowered.

I think the major thing I'm looking for is someone to go through and find places where the old rules no longer fit (fireball vs stunball?), and rewrite them. The second biggest would be making sure crunch and fluff match.

[Lionhearted]

If anything TMs need to differentiate more from magi, not move closer to them.

[Tanegar]

Thinking about SR5, I decided I'd figure out a few things I'd like to see in it.

1) I'd like to see Technomancers following rules more closely to those of Mages, just for ease of play. Follow the same basic ruleset, but tailored to the Matrix, and we're good to go.

I'd like to see technomancers retconned out, honestly.

5) I'd like to see the magical paths a bit more divergent, so they stand out a little more.

I would also like this. I understand why they put all magicians in the same boat in 4E, but I still don't like it. I'd like to add a second axis, in addition to Materialization-Possession: Binding-Calling. Binding traditions, like Hermeticism, summon up the spirits they want and bind them to serve. Calling traditions (might need a new term to differentiate from the Calling rules in Running Wild) summon whatever spirit happens to be in the area and negotiate for favors. Basically, a return to the old Hermetic/shaman divide, only with room for more traditions.

[Murrdox]

I'd like to see hacking re-vamped to make the hacker shine more.

- Hackers with a datajack, commlink implant and hot-sim should be able to hack on a totally different level than a hacker who just has a commlink and trodes. Maybe to the point of making VR only accessible to hackers with a commlink implant. Also, bring back cyberdecks. Hackers should have their own personalized rigs that aren't just better PDAs than everyone else has. There should be a world of difference between a cyberdeck and a commlink. Not just more Response and System scores.

- I'd like less opposed checks for tasks. My group spends a lot of time looking up basic rules because the players forget what opposed check they need to make. For example, Summoning.

- Full color book, good binding, and a Limited Collector's Edition I can pre-order yesterday!!

[Tashiro]

I'd like to see hacking re-vamped to make the hacker shine more.

- Hackers with a datajack, commlink implant and hot-sim should be able to hack on a totally different level than a hacker who just has a commlink and trodes. Maybe to the point of making VR only accessible to hackers with a commlink implant. Also, bring back cyberdecks. Hackers should have their own personalized rigs that aren't just better PDAs than everyone else has. There should be a world of difference between a cyberdeck and a commlink. Not just more Response and System scores.

I'm not sure I agree. A commlink is effectively a PC - what would a cyberdeck have that a commlink doesn't? I mean, a cyberdeck is effectively a computer which stores your programs and hooks to the matrix - which is everything a commlink does. The only difference is whether you're wanting to go AR or VR. Hmm, I don't know about the datajack vs trodes, technology may have gotten to the point where the difference is minimal.

[Tashiro]

If anything TMs need to differentiate more from magi, not move closer to them.

The problem then is you're having to remember more rules. If they have the same basics: Sprites = Spirits, Programs = Spells, Fading = Drain, then at least a player who has learned to play one can quickly adapt to the other. Technomancers are effectively 'Mages in the Matrix' which is a good fit, I feel. If you make them too different, then you start to question their place.

[Murrdox]

I'm not sure I agree. A commlink is effectively a PC - what would a cyberdeck have that a commlink doesn't? I mean, a cyberdeck is effectively a computer which stores your programs and hooks to the matrix - which is everything a commlink does. The only difference is whether you're wanting to go AR or VR. Hmm, I don't know about the datajack vs trodes, technology may have gotten to the point where the difference is minimal.

In SR4, I completely agree. Commlinks are computers. However, I think you could really split it out. Think of a Commlink as a tablet PC. Think of a Cyberdeck as a full desktop PC with bleeding-edge hardware that you just can't fit into a tablet. If you had that kind of digital divide, hackers with cyberdecks would be something to be feared on the Matrix, and anyone who hacked using a commlink would be a script-kiddie by comparison.

It's just an idea. I just think hackers were cooler back in the Cyberdeck days. Now, EVERYONE has a commlink. Hackers just have slightly better commlinks than everyone else and pay a little more for better programs.

[Miri]

I would like to see a little more module capability with drones/vehicles, especially in regards to constructing one from scratch if none of the book versions meet what you are looking for.

[Stahlseele]

SR3 Variable TN.
SR3 Armor/Damage-System.
SR3 Skill-System with Pools instead of Attribute+Skill+Bonus shitloads of dice idiocy . .
Rest can stay as it is in SR4 i guess . .

[All4BigGuns]

SR3 Variable TN.
SR3 Armor/Damage-System.
SR3 Skill-System with Pools instead of Attribute+Skill+Bonus shitloads of dice idiocy . .

Suggestion: Take this "wish list" and throw it in the garbage where it belongs.

[bannockburn]

Suggestion: learn manners.

Otherwise: agreed. ^^

I wish for one thing only: an easy conversion for characters from SR4 to SR5.

[All4BigGuns]

Variable TNs: One of the most PoS mechanics ever used in an RPG. It is utterly stupid and pointless, especially since things can get to the point where you have to roll a fragging 20 on a d6 to get a 'success'. See? Stupid mechanic.

SR3 Damage System: Lethality in games needs to be REDUCED, not exacerbated.

SR3 Skill System: Going back to attributes being almost entirely pointless to put points into other than the fact you have to? No fragging thanks.


To be perfectly honest, the SR4A system needs to be left as-is except for perhaps a streamlining of the Matrix (and only the Matrix, everything else is fine).

[Stahlseele]

All of those changes would succeed in doing what they said they wanted to do with SR4.
GREATLY REDUCE THE NUMBER OF DICE BEING ROLLED.

[Lionhearted]

SR3 Variable TN.
SR3 Armor/Damage-System.
SR3 Skill-System with Pools instead of Attribute+Skill+Bonus shitloads of dice idiocy . .
Rest can stay as it is in SR4 i guess . .

My initial reaction: It buuuurn! take it away! take it away!

My reasonable response.
Variable TNs might not be the best idea, but moving a lot of modifiers from the DP to the threshold would make things smoother, for opposed tests... beats me.
Rewinding the skill system would make attributes mostly useless again, I don't like that.
Can't really make a statement on the damage system I barely remember anything about except that everything was Dikote

[All4BigGuns]

All of those changes would succeed in doing what they said they wanted to do with SR4.
GREATLY REDUCE THE NUMBER OF DICE BEING ROLLED.

That is not a good thing. Especially not when it makes an entire section of the character sheet (attributes) almost worthless except for a couple of 'derived' statistics and one or two 'niche' instances.

If you want SR3, then just go hunt down the books, play that and let other people play the much better version.

[Daddy's Litt...]

What I would like to see for 5th ed is no 5th ed. I am giving up an rebuying all the core rule books.

[Murrdox]

SR3 variable TNs was probably the #1 thing that gave my players headaches. I understand why some people like them, but I think SR4 did a better job with this.

I WOULD like to see dice-pools brought back in some kind of way. Not to the point where it makes Attributes useless, but I really liked the Dicepool system of SR3, and so did some of my players. I'd be interesting to see what you could come up with.

[All4BigGuns]

What I would like to see for 5th ed is no 5th ed. I am giving up an rebuying all the core rule books.

Unfortunately, this probably isn't an option. When a new edition is announced, the chances of it not happening are so slim as to be nonexistant.

[Lionhearted]

As for my wishlist for 5E, more love for Riggers.
No rigger book and only a few pages at the end of the hacking section?
How am I supposed to build Samus Aran using that?!

[bannockburn]

Oh hell yeah (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I want power armour! ^^

[Daddy's Litt...]

SR3 variable TNs was probably the #1 thing that gave my players headaches. I understand why some people like them, but I think SR4 did a better job with this.

I WOULD like to see dice-pools brought back in some kind of way. Not to the point where it makes Attributes useless, but I really liked the Dicepool system of SR3, and so did some of my players. I'd be interesting to see what you could come up with.

Except for the decking/hacking systems we kept with SR3 in our games for those various reasons. The more I hear of the 4th ed which clearly did not fix problem, going to 5th ed. I think why bother? We will keep with what we enjoy and just wait for all the grumbles around 6th ed.

[Darksong]

I am not a fan of the way variable TNs were implemented in SR3, but I think there is room for them if you did something like TN can vary between 2-6 (base 4) and anything that would increase the TN above 6 removes dice from the pool, so you don't have to worry about the shitty math of the linear TN increase but exploding difficulty at 8.

[Warlordtheft]

Thinking about SR5, I decided I'd figure out a few things I'd like to see in it.

1) I'd like to see Technomancers following rules more closely to those of Mages, just for ease of play. Follow the same basic ruleset, but tailored to the Matrix, and we're good to go.

Personally, I'd like to tweak their use of sprites and limit threading.

2) I'd like to see a more fleshed out section on Astral Space, and what we can do there.

I'd like for grounding to come back too!

3) I'd like for 'cosmetic' cyberware / bioware, to not have an Essence Cost. Seriously, save Essence Costs for things which are more invasive, and involve 'removing' or 'replacing' parts of the body. If I get cybertattoos, they should have zero impact on my Essence. Also, if you're born with genetic engineering, it shouldn't impact your Essence at all... after all, this IS your astral template. Why the hell would it impact your Magic or Resonance? (After all, you can make a full-blown clone Mage with 6 Essence out of the box in 4E).

+1 this, though as I recall they can't clone mages....

4) I would like to see a little more detail on commlinks, what you can put in them and such. A focus on consumer society (apps and the like), and how these work together with the character.

Yeah, but I rarely see people using the options they have now.

5) I'd like to see the magical paths a bit more divergent, so they stand out a little more.

I disagree, it helps if the rules for all mages are similar. A few bonuses here and there are ok, even the different drain stats I am ok with. Spirits being the same water vs lake/river/ocean, not really needed.

Things I want:

Revise stick and shock to be less end all be all--seriously!!!

Armor stacking:Reduce the amount of armor stacking!!!

Cyberware limbs: Change the way armor works to the 1/6 method (Head, torso, arms, legs).

Weapon damage codes: Up the leathality!!

Matrix: Data Searches need to be harder, rules/tips that help GMs run the matrix easier. Make cyber combat quicker. Keep hackers and riggers on the same system (easier to run!!).

Vehicle rules: Sensor rules should make more sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Vehicle combat--get rid of it and incorporate into regular combat. I think I used those rules once......

Magic: Up the drain values, mages have too easy a time avoiding drain in SR4. Spirits and edge--it should be better spelled out or offer suggestions on how GM's should handle its use.


Other general things: Compatible with 4E books (simple conversions), give examples, and keep an index!!!

[Prime Mover]

1. PC streamlining a good thing.
2. Some drain code and spirit issues. Lets make fireball as scary as mana bolt.
3. Matrix, I'm glad it's not my job to "fix" this once more. I think 4th had it going in right direction though.
4. Combat, armor changes, dart Gun rules clarified, fix stick and shock.
5. Fix adrenal pump so its not suicideware. Prices need leveled for some ware.
6. Curious about grittier combat, the games I have run lately are tearing up 400 BP PC's pretty regularly.
7. Really not sure about gear options need to hear more. Sensors and explosives need redone.

[Tashiro]

Variable TNs: One of the most PoS mechanics ever used in an RPG. It is utterly stupid and pointless, especially since things can get to the point where you have to roll a fragging 20 on a d6 to get a 'success'. See? Stupid mechanic.

Speaking as a designer myself, I do agree having a sliding TN is a bad decision. You can already adjust difficulty by determining # of successes, or by +/- dice pool, why add sliding TNs to the mix?

SR3 Damage System: Lethality in games needs to be REDUCED, not exacerbated.

I'll have to disagree here. I have seen what's possible in SR4 for Street Sams, and when you add Adepts and Spells to the mix, it gets obnoxious. Combat should be very lethal - something you want to avoid, or put an end to as quickly as possible, rather than walking in, guns blazing, and laughing as your opponents bounce bullets off your armour and spells. I would like the knife-in-the-back or the sniper rifle shot to do their job - kill the person outright.

[Stahlseele]

The point of the SR3 Skillset was that you had a fixed number of dice to roll for a skill.
TN changed and number of hits needed changed. Skill-Pool never changed. You may have had dice pools which you could allocate to different things, but you never had things like in SR4 where your ammount of Dice can go from -10 to +30 or more . .

[Tashiro]

SR3 variable TNs was probably the #1 thing that gave my players headaches. I understand why some people like them, but I think SR4 did a better job with this.

I WOULD like to see dice-pools brought back in some kind of way. Not to the point where it makes Attributes useless, but I really liked the Dicepool system of SR3, and so did some of my players. I'd be interesting to see what you could come up with.

The thing is - what's the point of the dice pool system? This would basically relate to 'more dice per roll' if you evened out the pool between your various actions, and if you end a round with any pool left over, that's a waste. I think the 'spend 1 edge, get X dice' worked better. It basically amounted to the same thing, but you had a limit on how often you could do it.

[Tashiro]

The point of the SR3 Skillset was that you had a fixed number of dice to roll for a skill.
TN changed and number of hits needed changed. Skill-Pool never changed. You may have had dice pools which you could allocate to different things, but you never had things like in SR4 where your ammount of Dice can go from -10 to +30 or more . .

Okay, so you have Dice Pool X. You could + or - what you needed for a success, and you could + or - how many successes you needed. I'd definitely have to go with 'pick one'. Because together, those are kind of redundant. What's the effect of +1 TN versus +1 success needed?

I can accept a +/- dice pool with +/- successes needed, which is what SR4 did, but I'd be more inclined to do a +/- dice pool, with 1+ successes needed. This would work better to reducing dice pools (thus reducing the number of dice rolled) by penalties, and presuming any success over the first produces a greater effect, but the 1 success is the threshold needed. Having the weird 'you got 3 successes, you failed' scenarios tend to bother me.

[Stahlseele]

In most tests, you only needed 1 single success to succeed . . extras added bonus or reduced time needed or something. The tests where both number of needed hits and TN changed were really seldom.

[Lionhearted]

Combat should be very lethal - something you want to avoid, or put an end to as quickly as possible, rather than walking in, guns blazing, and laughing as your opponents bounce bullets off your armour and spells. I would like the knife-in-the-back or the sniper rifle shot to do their job - kill the person outright.

It's a fine balance to strike, if you make combat to lethal, you're in danger of reducing variety and thus lessening some peoples enjoyment of the game.
While some a lot of people here is all mirror shades all of the time, there's definitely a place in SR for guns blazin' pink mohawk. Making combat overly lethal in a game completely without resurrection (Well not counting hand of god, that still leaves you in a shoddy state), would severely hamper more action heavy playstyles.
Otherwise I agree, some of the soaking possible is silly and need adjustment.

[All4BigGuns]

Having the weird 'you got 3 successes, you failed' scenarios tend to bother me.

For the most part, that doesn't happen that much except in the case of opposed tests where the opponent gets more hits than you. The cases where it does happen, well, if the threshold is 5 hits and you get 3 hits, then you fail.*

*- If you think in the term 'hits' (used in the books) rather than 'successes' it's much less of a confusion.

[Tashiro]

It's a fine balance to strike, if you make combat to lethal, you're in danger of reducing variety and thus lessening some peoples enjoyment of the game. While some a lot of people here is all mirror shades all of the time, there's definitely a place in SR for guns blazin' pink mohawk. Making combat overly lethal in a game completely without resurrection (Well not counting hand of god, that still leaves you in a shoddy state), would severely hamper more action heavy playstyles. Otherwise I agree, some of the soaking possible is silly and need adjustment.

Having a sidebar with some optional tweaks to reduce lethality is a way to go, but I generally like games which have the option of the one-hit-kill. The big armoured Troll of Doom who doesn't wear a helmet getting a bullet through the eye sort of thing. I've seen one game which does it well, though I don't think it would work as well with SR5.

Abney Park's Airship Pirates has a round of combat be a variable amount of time. The die roll is to determine the result of a series of exchanges, and one roll can actually kill someone outright. It makes for dramatic narrative, and if you survived being hit once, you're probably inclined to run like hell, but I don't think the 'flexible timeframe' sort of scenario would work with Shadowrun. It would allow for dramatic action sequences, mind... but I don't know.

Which reminds me.

[apple]

The point of the SR3 Skillset was that you had a fixed number of dice to roll for a skill.
TN changed and number of hits needed changed. Skill-Pool never changed. You may have had dice pools which you could allocate to different things, but you never had things like in SR4 where your ammount of Dice can go from -10 to +30 or more . .

And the difference to SR3 is what? There your TN could change between 2 and 20 depending on the situation - and of course you could get bonus dice depending cyberware etc.

No thank you.

SYL

[DireRadiant]

A reminder to everyone to keep discussion civil, especially with highly inflammatory topics such as new editions.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Having a sidebar with some optional tweaks to reduce lethality is a way to go, but I generally like games which have the option of the one-hit-kill. The big armoured Troll of Doom who doesn't wear a helmet getting a bullet through the eye sort of thing. I've seen one game which does it well, though I don't think it would work as well with SR5.

Abney Park's Airship Pirates has a round of combat be a variable amount of time. The die roll is to determine the result of a series of exchanges, and one roll can actually kill someone outright. It makes for dramatic narrative, and if you survived being hit once, you're probably inclined to run like hell, but I don't think the 'flexible timeframe' sort of scenario would work with Shadowrun. It would allow for dramatic action sequences, mind... but I don't know.

Which reminds me.

L5R - One of the Deadliest games I have ever played. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Misdemeanor]

In SR4, I completely agree. Commlinks are computers. However, I think you could really split it out. Think of a Commlink as a tablet PC. Think of a Cyberdeck as a full desktop PC with bleeding-edge hardware that you just can't fit into a tablet. If you had that kind of digital divide, hackers with cyberdecks would be something to be feared on the Matrix, and anyone who hacked using a commlink would be a script-kiddie by comparison.

It's just an idea. I just think hackers were cooler back in the Cyberdeck days. Now, EVERYONE has a commlink. Hackers just have slightly better commlinks than everyone else and pay a little more for better programs.

I have to Agree with Murrdox, but for all the wrong reasons...I am not fond of the "wireless" world. I preferred 3rd edition when the only way a Hacker or Rigger (cyber or Technomancer)had to Jack in to the target. It forced the the Matrix character to physically with the group instead of being safely far away from the flying bullets...I like to put all my players in mortal danger (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Lionhearted]

You're thinking of it wrong misdemeanor!
Hacking from home means that he got no backup when you bust down the door (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Starglyte]

I would like two core settings. Seattle and a rural area. One thing I thought Shadowrun could of used was a rural setting similar to the Far Cry games.

[Fatum]

I'd like to see the archetypes more different and more... I dunno, fleshed out?
Technomancers shouldn't be just matrix magi, there should be a mystery to them. Shamans and hermetics should deviate more. Adepts and sammies, hackers and riggers, all should have their own unique things going, both in mechanics and fluff. Yeah, that'd mean learning new rules to play a new archetype. So... what?
In this vain, I like the idea with cyberdecks returning. They really helped hackers to stand out. I don't think they should be that different or complex to design or anything; just having anything past a certain Rating threshold require a cyberdeck might work.

[binarywraith]

All I want for Christmas is my matrix back.

Fuck Technomancers. Fuck wireless. Fuck RFIDs. Fuck AR. These things are the opposite of fun, and make deckers useless.

[Stahlseele]

"Bring back 80's speed metal"
And the Rocker Archetype.

[binarywraith]

"Bring back 80's speed metal"
And the Rocker Archetype.

And this.

Rockers make every other face look lame and boring by comparison. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

[Lionhearted]

Omae, if we were in the rules it wouldn't be metal \../

[Tashiro]

All I want for Christmas is my matrix back.

Fuck Technomancers. Fuck wireless. Fuck RFIDs. Fuck AR. These things are the opposite of fun, and make deckers useless.

That's progress. Look at the world now - wireless. RFIDs everywhere. Augmented Reality exists in the now. I was just writing an essay on Science Fiction, and one of the things I praised Shadowrun with is that they're keeping up with modern technology, and thus remaining relevant as a science fiction genre. If they ignored the wireless world, AR, and everything that comes with it, Shadowrun would descend into irrelevancy -- much like Cyberpunk did. Cyberpunk tried to stick to its roots, and in doing so, became less and less realistic, and showed its age more and more.

I want Shadowrun to take modern advances in technology and culture into account, and keep updating to match the shift in what's relevant now. This means that the world is wireless, this means that everyone's going to have a full-fledged computer on hand. This means that scanners and ID tags are going to be everywhere, on everything. That's just how the world evolved, and Shadowrun should mirror this if it wants to make sense.

Otherwise, you're going to have things like 'we're able to do this NOW, why can't we do this in SR?' -- and the excuse 'because we can't' isn't going to cut it.

[All4BigGuns]

Having a sidebar with some optional tweaks to reduce lethality is a way to go, but I generally like games which have the option of the one-hit-kill.

The way to do it is to have the "optional tweaks" be the higher lethality like it was done in SR4 (unneeded as they are, it's lethal enough as-is).

[mrslamm0]

I don't know if I would change enough to make a while new edition. My main gripes my group and I have had were the rocket rules and hacking being too easy. Im sure for the hacking thing im missing something when I run it. Not sure if my group will jump ship to SR5, I kinda don't want to learn another rule set when im happy with the old one really. I understand from a sale point why they have another one coming out after this time but im not really that excited for it.

[All4BigGuns]

I don't know if I would change enough to make a while new edition. My main gripes my group and I have had were the rocket rules and hacking being too easy. Im sure for the hacking thing im missing something when I run it. Not sure if my group will jump ship to SR5, I kinda don't want to learn another rule set when im happy with the old one really. I understand from a sale point why they have another one coming out after this time but im not really that excited for it.

Crap, forgot about rockets and their scatter... Then again, that's a really easy fix (ignore it on rockets or swap rocket and grenade scatter).

[Abschalten]

Crap, forgot about rockets and their scatter... Then again, that's a really easy fix (ignore it on rockets or swap rocket and grenade scatter).

My simple fix is to ignore SR4A's scatter table and use the old SR4 one. The new scatter table is nothing short of lunacy. With that sort of wild and random inaccuracy from even the best heavy weapons experts using the best guidance systems, there's absolutely no reason to use rockets, missiles, or grenades in the SR4 world.

[Tashiro]

Ah, yes. That's something else for the wish list. Explaining exactly how hacking works. What programs do what, how they are used, and a breakdown of the methods to go about breaking into a computer and getting what you need in non-vague terms.

[All4BigGuns]

Ah, yes. That's something else for the wish list. Explaining exactly how hacking works. What programs do what, how they are used, and a breakdown of the methods to go about breaking into a computer and getting what you need in non-vague terms.

That could be good, though that last part I'd personally save until the new edition's Matrix book. It'll give a good reason to pick it up.

[Tashiro]

Actually, bringing back smart frames might be nice too - 'sprites' for the non-Technomancer.

[binarywraith]

That's progress. Look at the world now - wireless. RFIDs everywhere. Augmented Reality exists in the now. I was just writing an essay on Science Fiction, and one of the things I praised Shadowrun with is that they're keeping up with modern technology, and thus remaining relevant as a science fiction genre. If they ignored the wireless world, AR, and everything that comes with it, Shadowrun would descend into irrelevancy -- much like Cyberpunk did. Cyberpunk tried to stick to its roots, and in doing so, became less and less realistic, and showed its age more and more.

I want Shadowrun to take modern advances in technology and culture into account, and keep updating to match the shift in what's relevant now. This means that the world is wireless, this means that everyone's going to have a full-fledged computer on hand. This means that scanners and ID tags are going to be everywhere, on everything. That's just how the world evolved, and Shadowrun should mirror this if it wants to make sense.

Otherwise, you're going to have things like 'we're able to do this NOW, why can't we do this in SR?' -- and the excuse 'because we can't' isn't going to cut it.

That's the thing. Wireless had -been done- in SR, and much like we've discovered in the real world, was abandoned for serious Maxtrix use and limited to day to day applications like pocket secs and phones because it simply didn't have the bandwidth to serve the matrix and because of the massively stupid security issues it posed.

Between that and the RFID stuff, it essentially makes the off-the-grid shadowrunner lifestyle impossible because tracking down anyone is as easy as sticking a tag on them that wardrives and records what networks it wanders through.

But the real point is that the SR timeline diverged from ours somewhere in the 80's, and their 1990's and 2000's were a lot different than ours. There's no reason to mirror what happened in the real world, and trying to do so really hurts the setting. Hell, if we were on the SR timeline, there would have been two nuclear wars by now (Israel v Libya and DPRK v Japan), VITAS would have killed a quarter of the world population, and we'd have a manned mission on Mars.

[GM Lich]

one thing I know this may sound dangerous similar to the other game, is reward approximation. How much money should the PCs take home from a run according to the challenge. One of the more intimidating aspects of GMing is how much reward should you actually give to them. One of the key things I like about shadowrun compared to other RPGs is the freeformness of it. The other is EDGE is really powerful in Shadowrun and imo needs to be toned down a little.I think most of the rest has already been said or has been promised. The only thing I'm slightly worried about is simplified character development. I'm hoping they just use packets like in Runner's Toolkit but who knows what they will actually end up doing. I'm nervous and excited to see what they will do.


Slightly Offtopic: Does Topps own Catalyst or are they running the show now?

[Lionhearted]

I would like some more fleshed out guidelines on how to award cash and karma. Especially as you don't really have a inherent intrinsic understanding for the value of nuyen.

[Stahlseele]

Topps owns the SR IP as a whole.
CGL has a license to use the SR IP for the Pen and Paper RPG.
Nobody owns anything.

[Sengir]

and a breakdown of the methods to go about breaking into a computer and getting what you need in non-vague terms.

Yep, that would be kinda nice to have. And a definite description of how AR and VR users interact...strictly by RAW it's not even clear whether they have personas...

[Bigity]

That's progress. Look at the world now - wireless. RFIDs everywhere. Augmented Reality exists in the now. I was just writing an essay on Science Fiction, and one of the things I praised Shadowrun with is that they're keeping up with modern technology, and thus remaining relevant as a science fiction genre. If they ignored the wireless world, AR, and everything that comes with it, Shadowrun would descend into irrelevancy -- much like Cyberpunk did. Cyberpunk tried to stick to its roots, and in doing so, became less and less realistic, and showed its age more and more.

I want Shadowrun to take modern advances in technology and culture into account, and keep updating to match the shift in what's relevant now. This means that the world is wireless, this means that everyone's going to have a full-fledged computer on hand. This means that scanners and ID tags are going to be everywhere, on everything. That's just how the world evolved, and Shadowrun should mirror this if it wants to make sense.

Otherwise, you're going to have things like 'we're able to do this NOW, why can't we do this in SR?' -- and the excuse 'because we can't' isn't going to cut it.

See, I disagree here. SR never looked like the world did at any point. It was based of a crazy assed notion that Japan was going to take over the world and 80s trends would remain in place. I don't want a game that mirrors real life. I've never played a RPG and thought, gee, I can mind control people and blow up their brains with mind-waves, why can't I do that in real life? I didn't play SR back in the 80s and 90s because I thought it was realistic. I doubt anyone did, ever.

Commonplace wireless and a hyper-connected world removes alot of the charm of the setting, IMO. Mages and shamans being identical: same thing. Riggers/hackers. No 'decks. Technology that is better than cyber and doesn't require cutting out a piece of your flesh and soul. And so on.

Now, I full realize there is room enough for cyberpunk-ish SR, and more post-cyberpunk, but I'm not buying post-cyberpunk books. Maybe this edition is feeding off some of the SR2050 book sales? I dunno. Multiple realities would be great, if they can support both concepts. With board games, TCGs, etc, all planned, maybe they have the staff to do it.

[Tashiro]

See, I disagree here. SR never looked like the world did at any point. It was based of a crazy assed notion that Japan was going to take over the world and 80s trends would remain in place. I don't want a game that mirrors real life. I've never played a RPG and thought, gee, I can mind control people and blow up their brains with mind-waves, why can't I do that in real life? I didn't play SR back in the 80s and 90s because I thought it was realistic. I doubt anyone did, ever.

Not quite what I meant. Good science fiction uses the setting as a framework to reflect aspects of the modern world and raise questions, and near future science fiction will usually extrapolate from where we are to where they think we may go. Shadowrun, IMHO, does this very well, which is why it is one of my favourite roleplaying games (just recently, I had to sell almost all my roleplaying games -- I owned every single nWoD book out there, and sold that off, but I kept all my Shadowrun books, because I loved SR4 more).

And for some reason, your example worked backwards. It isn't 'I can do this in a game, why can't I do this real life?' - it's 'if our world is moving towards allowing for THIS, why can't I do this in Shadowrun?' An amusing thought experiment I had was, 'if Earth ever encountered actual alien races, how many science fiction movies, books, and games would add alien races as a de-facto part of Earth's life?'. Anyway, I'm digressing.

For science fiction to remain relevant, it needs to be able to be relatable to modern times. We're living in a near wireless world now, which has caused a huge shift in our culture. SR4 reflected this, and I think it did it very well, it tapped neatly into the wireless vein and how it alters the world. I don't want a Shadowrun world which remains more or less stagnant as we move ahead. I want a setting which will evolve and shift as we evolve and shift. I'd feel much the same way about an RPG that started 'in the 80s' to give us an 80s feel, but never, ever moved into the 90s or the turn of the century. Sure, the 80s was fun, but the world moves forward for the characters, and they'll need to move forward with it.

Seriously, Shadowrun's timeline started in the 2050s, and has moved up to the 2070s. In 20 years, technology must have moved forward by serious leaps and bounds - I want to see that reflected. If someone doesn't like the wireless world, they just run the game in the 2050s and keep it there. That's an entire decade you can use.

Commonplace wireless and a hyper-connected world removes alot of the charm of the setting, IMO. Mages and shamans being identical: same thing. Riggers/hackers. No 'decks. Technology that is better than cyber and doesn't require cutting out a piece of your flesh and soul. And so on.

I fear we'll need to disagree on this. To me, this makes the game seem more alive. It's one thing I hate about 'traditional' fantasy settings -- you have cultures sitting around for hundreds or thousands of years, but not shifting at all from where they started. I'm sorry, that doesn't happen. And in a high-tech setting, such as Shadowrun, evolution should be lightning fast, as new innovations and technologies are created, and Shadowrun's really good for that. If I remember correctly, the first Virtual Realities book (SR1) had wireless cyberdecks, and by SR2, 'memory' for your cyberdeck went from a limited amount to infinite (since everything was stored on the Matrix). As Shadowrun moved forward, you could see technology in the setting moving forward as well, reflecting our innovations and advancements.

Now, as for hermetics / shamans / everything else, I do agree that I was disappointed when the line got blurred, simply because I believe magic is about culture and belief. That being said, I'm fully supportive of a single ruleset to cover all the different aspects (summoning/binding, spirit mentor/totem, etc), what I want is something to cause each one to stand out individually ... something akin to what they dropped into martial arts -- you take tradition X, you get these specific perks that nobody else will get. (The Path of the Wheel is a very, very good example in fact, from Tir N'an Og).

Riggers and Hackers? The only thing I see there is 'skill set'. I'm thinking about how drones are operated in today's world, and the only thing that stands out is that you need to be damn good at flight simulators, but really, once you've got that down pat (which I believe would be your driving skills in Shadowrun), blending the line between hacker and rigger makes sense. Since you need to be able to take over any drone in sight, hacking skills become essential to the rigger for breaking into a vehicle / drone / sentry, taking it over, and piloting it. And if a hacker specializes in hostile takeover of drones and such (which I've seen done in my games), then yeah, more power to them. I'd say they're different archetypes, mostly because of where they want to focus. Most hackers do infiltration and data mining or sabotage, while riggers don't stuff their commlinks full of attack and stealth programs unless they're doing hostile rigging -- if they aren't, they save it for command routines to handle aspects of their vehicles while they command them remotely.

The commlink I think is a natural evolution of the cyberdeck. We have laptops and minicomputers which blow away anything we had 15 years ago, why can't Shadowrun have evolved their technology to be 'personal' in 20 years? In SR3, I was annoyed when I couldn't do basic hacking with a wrist computer, simply because I knew for a fact that people were hacking from laptops -- and that was back in 2001. I saw a parallel between the 'wrist computer' in Shadowrun versus the 'deck, and the laptop versus the PC. I'm actually glad that SR4 has accepted that your PC is now something worn all the time.

Now, I full realize there is room enough for cyberpunk-ish SR, and more post-cyberpunk, but I'm not buying post-cyberpunk books. Maybe this edition is feeding off some of the SR2050 book sales? I dunno. Multiple realities would be great, if they can support both concepts. With board games, TCGs, etc, all planned, maybe they have the staff to do it.

The thing is, the timeline in the Shadowrun universe is moving forward. It makes no sense for civilization to suddenly grind to a halt. I'm enjoying the Shadowrun universe because it is alive and evolving, and will allow me to look at things such as transhumanism, post-cyberpunk, and everything that comes from those. To me, Shadowrun is a science fiction genre - cyberpunk played a part in it, but not the only part.

Personally, I want to watch magic evolve, I want to see technology evolve, and I want to see the eventual melding of the two. Thaumatechnology is a big interest of mine, and SR4 really started to dip into that field, which drew me in a lot more. I find Technomancers to be a part of the deal -- technology is the 'new tradition' of the world, and because humanity in the setting sees a 'divide' between magic and technology, those people who 'awaken' have a different filter. That's my theory at least, so we'll see, but I found technomancy to be a refreshing shift in Shadowrun, and it is one of the best examples for me as to why Shadowrun is a great setting -- it doesn't sit on its laurels, and is constantly pushing forward with new ideas.

Heh. I talked myself from being only marginally interested in SR5 to VERY interested in SR5. I'm looking forward to seeing them push the envelope more!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, bringing back smart frames might be nice too - 'sprites' for the non-Technomancer.

Agents are essentially Smart Frames. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tashiro]

Agents are essentially Smart Frames. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ah, cool. I missed that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

Really, there did start to be some disconnect when modern computer technology started to catch up (and surpass in some areas) the "future" technology of SR.

[Tashiro]

Really, there did start to be some disconnect when modern computer technology started to catch up (and surpass in some areas) the "future" technology of SR.

Exactly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bigity]

Not quite what I meant. Good science fiction uses the setting as a framework to reflect aspects of the modern world and raise questions, and near future science fiction will usually extrapolate from where we are to where they think we may go. Shadowrun, IMHO, does this very well, which is why it is one of my favourite roleplaying games (just recently, I had to sell almost all my roleplaying games -- I owned every single nWoD book out there, and sold that off, but I kept all my Shadowrun books, because I loved SR4 more).

And for some reason, your example worked backwards. It isn't 'I can do this in a game, why can't I do this real life?' - it's 'if our world is moving towards allowing for THIS, why can't I do this in Shadowrun?' An amusing thought experiment I had was, 'if Earth ever encountered actual alien races, how many science fiction movies, books, and games would add alien races as a de-facto part of Earth's life?'. Anyway, I'm digressing.

For science fiction to remain relevant, it needs to be able to be relatable to modern times. We're living in a near wireless world now, which has caused a huge shift in our culture. SR4 reflected this, and I think it did it very well, it tapped neatly into the wireless vein and how it alters the world. I don't want a Shadowrun world which remains more or less stagnant as we move ahead. I want a setting which will evolve and shift as we evolve and shift. I'd feel much the same way about an RPG that started 'in the 80s' to give us an 80s feel, but never, ever moved into the 90s or the turn of the century. Sure, the 80s was fun, but the world moves forward for the characters, and they'll need to move forward with it.

Seriously, Shadowrun's timeline started in the 2050s, and has moved up to the 2070s. In 20 years, technology must have moved forward by serious leaps and bounds - I want to see that reflected. If someone doesn't like the wireless world, they just run the game in the 2050s and keep it there. That's an entire decade you can use.



I fear we'll need to disagree on this. To me, this makes the game seem more alive. It's one thing I hate about 'traditional' fantasy settings -- you have cultures sitting around for hundreds or thousands of years, but not shifting at all from where they started. I'm sorry, that doesn't happen. And in a high-tech setting, such as Shadowrun, evolution should be lightning fast, as new innovations and technologies are created, and Shadowrun's really good for that. If I remember correctly, the first Virtual Realities book (SR1) had wireless cyberdecks, and by SR2, 'memory' for your cyberdeck went from a limited amount to infinite (since everything was stored on the Matrix). As Shadowrun moved forward, you could see technology in the setting moving forward as well, reflecting our innovations and advancements.

Now, as for hermetics / shamans / everything else, I do agree that I was disappointed when the line got blurred, simply because I believe magic is about culture and belief. That being said, I'm fully supportive of a single ruleset to cover all the different aspects (summoning/binding, spirit mentor/totem, etc), what I want is something to cause each one to stand out individually ... something akin to what they dropped into martial arts -- you take tradition X, you get these specific perks that nobody else will get. (The Path of the Wheel is a very, very good example in fact, from Tir N'an Og).

Riggers and Hackers? The only thing I see there is 'skill set'. I'm thinking about how drones are operated in today's world, and the only thing that stands out is that you need to be damn good at flight simulators, but really, once you've got that down pat (which I believe would be your driving skills in Shadowrun), blending the line between hacker and rigger makes sense. Since you need to be able to take over any drone in sight, hacking skills become essential to the rigger for breaking into a vehicle / drone / sentry, taking it over, and piloting it. And if a hacker specializes in hostile takeover of drones and such (which I've seen done in my games), then yeah, more power to them. I'd say they're different archetypes, mostly because of where they want to focus. Most hackers do infiltration and data mining or sabotage, while riggers don't stuff their commlinks full of attack and stealth programs unless they're doing hostile rigging -- if they aren't, they save it for command routines to handle aspects of their vehicles while they command them remotely.

The commlink I think is a natural evolution of the cyberdeck. We have laptops and minicomputers which blow away anything we had 15 years ago, why can't Shadowrun have evolved their technology to be 'personal' in 20 years? In SR3, I was annoyed when I couldn't do basic hacking with a wrist computer, simply because I knew for a fact that people were hacking from laptops -- and that was back in 2001. I saw a parallel between the 'wrist computer' in Shadowrun versus the 'deck, and the laptop versus the PC. I'm actually glad that SR4 has accepted that your PC is now something worn all the time.



The thing is, the timeline in the Shadowrun universe is moving forward. It makes no sense for civilization to suddenly grind to a halt. I'm enjoying the Shadowrun universe because it is alive and evolving, and will allow me to look at things such as transhumanism, post-cyberpunk, and everything that comes from those. To me, Shadowrun is a science fiction genre - cyberpunk played a part in it, but not the only part.

Personally, I want to watch magic evolve, I want to see technology evolve, and I want to see the eventual melding of the two. Thaumatechnology is a big interest of mine, and SR4 really started to dip into that field, which drew me in a lot more. I find Technomancers to be a part of the deal -- technology is the 'new tradition' of the world, and because humanity in the setting sees a 'divide' between magic and technology, those people who 'awaken' have a different filter. That's my theory at least, so we'll see, but I found technomancy to be a refreshing shift in Shadowrun, and it is one of the best examples for me as to why Shadowrun is a great setting -- it doesn't sit on its laurels, and is constantly pushing forward with new ideas.

Heh. I talked myself from being only marginally interested in SR5 to VERY interested in SR5. I'm looking forward to seeing them push the envelope more!

Don't get me wrong, adjusting the timeframe is fine. 'Jumping' in 20 years and basically replacing HUGE parts of it, just 'cause is what bothers me. Wireless was already being introduced in SR3, and should have slowly come along, especially given how insecure it is in SR4. Why the hell would anyone, much less a corp with billions to spend on security, put anything out there on a SR4 node?

Aside from that, jacking in was just cooler. Buying an off the shelf tablet and being at the highest level of hacking hardware possible is lame. Make it personal again, where you write your own code and make your own stuff. I don't care what year it is in-game. That is just better for the setting.

[Tashiro]

Don't get me wrong, adjusting the timeframe is fine. 'Jumping' in 20 years and basically replacing HUGE parts of it, just 'cause is what bothers me. Wireless was already being introduced in SR3, and should have slowly come along, especially given how insecure it is in SR4. Why the hell would anyone, much less a corp with billions to spend on security, put anything out there on a SR4 node?

I don't think they jumped quite that far ahead. SR3 went as far as the mid 2060s, but if you compare it to modern times, our technology made the jump in a similar time frame. (I just have to look at how quickly I went to 'use a PC' to 'our entire game group uses laptops'. I went from wired routers to wireless. And now I do some of my gaming using just my smartphone. That's all been in the last five years or so.)

As for why anyone (including a corp) do this? Well, again, take a look at the real world. A lot of people use smartphones and wireless routers and don't have that much security on them. Just last week I saw a member of Anonymous hack WBC's web site casually while on a radio program - just as a matter of course. I was thinking about this actually earlier today - about corporate security in Shadowrun, and comparing it to corporate security in real life.

Any system is theoretically breachable from the outside. Considering you need to advertise (web pages and the like), your presence on the web is a vulnerability right there. If anyone needs to send information out -- and everyone needs to send information in this age -- that becomes another vulnerability. Even in a 'sealed' system, where your presence is online only when you send off or take in information (visit a web page, send an e-mail, conference call, or what-have-you), those are open for exploits. In Shadowrun, this is a bigger thing than what we have now, but it makes sense. Every employee has a commlink connecting them to the corporation, the corporation's got information going in and out nearly constantly, then there's their VR and AR presence. They're probably paying a small fortune in security IC however, which helps.

Aside from that, jacking in was just cooler. Buying an off the shelf tablet and being at the highest level of hacking hardware possible is lame. Make it personal again, where you write your own code and make your own stuff. I don't care what year it is in-game. That is just better for the setting.

It might be cooler, but it was impractical and unrealistic after a certain point. You'd want your employees mobile and active, not zoning out each time they want to do something. Being tethered limits options. Nothing stops a programmer from making their own programs though - Unwired gave a lot for that. Personalizing programs is cool, I'll admit. But... err, why shouldn't a person be able to buy a SOTA computer and with the right programs be awesome? Not everyone builds a computer from parts in their bedroom.

[Bigity]

And an idiot with a smartphone without a corresponding security policy from his company does not represent the draconian measures you'd find for a mega. Ok, Joe's Pizza Shop, you'd expect lolsecurity measures. Ares? No.

As for being tethered, corps are routinely described as building arcologies to control every aspect of an employee's life. You think they give half a shit that Joe Wageslave can't take their work to the competing mall?

Given how easy hacking is in SR4, there is no way anyone in-game would put anything worthwhile on a node that anyone else knows about. That's not cool, nor realistic, and it affects the game.

[Halinn]

I wouldn't expect Sony's customer databases with passwords and stuff being accessible either, but that was hacked.

[Tashiro]

As for being tethered, corps are routinely described as building arcologies to control every aspect of an employee's life. You think they give half a shit that Joe Wageslave can't take their work to the competing mall?

From what I can tell, that would have been before SR4. I saw little to convince me that things were the same in 4th edition. With the wireless world, corporations can have their employees working any time, from any place - and in fact it would give the corporation a keener insight into their employee's activities and spending habits.

Given how easy hacking is in SR4, there is no way anyone in-game would put anything worthwhile on a node that anyone else knows about. That's not cool, nor realistic, and it affects the game.

Hacking is only as easy as the game master lets it be. Drop in the appropriate IC and counter-measures, and hacking can be a serious problem. Then again, I'm looking at what hackers in real life are capable of, and some of the big jobs which have been done, and I'm not seeing much difference between RL and Shadowrun. (The Sony job, as was mentioned, comes immediately to mind, but then there's also some other cases as well...)

[Stahlseele]

I wouldn't expect Sony's customer databases with passwords and stuff being accessible either, but that was hacked.

A Database has to be accessible, else the database is useless for the job it's supposed to do.
Which is aggregate dat and connect the data to specific logins. People would not be able to log in with an unaccessible database.
And not able to buy stuff either. There you have a potential security risk allready built in, and one which you can't get rid off either.


As for the Matrix and Magic-Problem:
The less people know the Magic Rules, the stronger Magic gets.
The less people know the Matrix Rules, the weaker Matrix gets.

[Sengir]

Something else I just remembered: The number of defensive programs which are not just options, but the only defense against the respective attack is far too large. A user who does not want to get caught with his pants down needs to run Armor, Feedback Filter, Defuse, and Purge before even starting with the stuff required to do something. That's like requiring a mage to run a handful different Counterspelling skills, all only useful against one type of attack.

[Nath]

It's one thing I hate about 'traditional' fantasy settings -- you have cultures sitting around for hundreds or thousands of years, but not shifting at all from where they started. I'm sorry, that doesn't happen.

That no longer happens. Fantasy settings usually are closer the Roman Empire or European Dark Ages, whose culture did not change much for a bunch of centuries (not to mention Ancient Egypt, who lasted for over two thousand years). History has been tremendously accelerating in the last two or three centuries.

[Tashiro]

That no longer happens. Fantasy settings usually are closer the Roman Empire or European Dark Ages, whose culture did not change much for a bunch of centuries (not to mention Ancient Egypt, who lasted for over two thousand years). History has been tremendously accelerating in the last two or three centuries.

Actually, I needed to develop a timeline for inventions from the middle ages forward. Things happened, and technology advanced. It wasn't as astounding in specific fields as we have now, but they did move forward. The thing is, most fantasy settings are 'middle ages', but they ignore some of the things that were developed in the middle ages. Hell, most fantasy settings seem to ignore the fact gunpowder existed in the middle ages. I'm glad Pathfinder has developed firearms rules.

A good list of things invented, and how technology moved forward.

[Wakshaani]

I have dreams of the Matrix, personally. I've wanted to play a good Decker since '89, but the system's always been happy to get in the way. Many GM's don't want to learn it, and the few that do wind up with players who don't want to do it. "And the NPC decker says..." has become standard issue around every table I've ever been at.

A solid set of Matrix rules and a rocking Decker are, combined, my Holy Grail for Shadowrun.

4th ed got me closer than ever before. The 'hacker' (grumble) had to get out and about and in the mix to do things, which 2nd and 3rd had already started, but could go AR and do things on the fly, rather than slump like a broken doll in a corner and drool his way to full-immersion victory. The *style* was there, but the rules... mrf. From what I'm told, if you were a sysop, everything made perfect sense, but if you weren't, it was a mishmash of terms and blabber and just fell apart. The entry bar was still set too high.

Want to kick the door open? Gimmie a Strength test.
Want to pick the lock? Roll Lockpicking (Or, well, your Autopicker).
Want to use your Maglock sequencer to get past the door? Gimmie a Hardware roll.
Want to hack the door? Alright, first we gotta find the wireless signal. Now you have to log in. Now you have to hack an account. Now you have to upgrade that account. Now you have to find the right node. Now you ... arg!

AR hacking should be fast, as easy to learn how to do as shooting a gun, casting a spell, or jumping a fence. VR hacking can be more complex, like astral projecting is more complex for a mage than just blasting a spell, but AR should be short n sweet, an opposed roll and go.

That'd be my Xmas wish.

Also a pony.

[Matsci]

Also a pony.

[img]http://www.fimfiction-static.net/images/story_images/11808.png?1335834471[/img]

[Tanegar]

[img]http://www.fimfiction-static.net/images/story_images/11808.png?1335834471[/img]

No, Dumpshock does not support inline images. You joined four years ago, figure it out!

[Draco18s]

No, Dumpshock does not support inline images. You joined four years ago, figure it out!

Surprisingly, it has worked on occasion.
In any case here is a valid link because the original got FUBAR'd.

In any case, the matrix rules really need a good redo. Forget everything that exists in 4E and start over from the ground up: what's the goal, how long should it take, what are the relevant dice pools.

I think if nothing else changed except the matrix rules, I could be happy. Sure, some better techno rules, differentiating classes of mage, few other things would be nice. But fixing the matrix would make things sooo much better.

[Tashiro]

Actually, what would be really nice is if the main rulebook covered:
1) Magic in detail: Consolidate all the spells and initiate powers from SR4, cover initiation and magical groups. Spirit Mentors, etc. Differentiate between different magical styles - perhaps in a manner like martial arts is done. 'This tradition grants these tweaks, which no other tradition has' sort of thing.

2) The Matrix: What commlinks do, how they work. What programs are normally part of a commlink, and how you can customize a commlink (apps). Hacking needs to be explained. What programs are needed to find a node, hack a node, how to create backdoors and what these do. How to navigate, etc. These need to be explained carefully, and a flowchart or other way to keep things quick and moving is needed. Hacking should be as easy as combat at the bare minimum.

3) Technomancy: Make it parallel mages, just for ease of understanding. Make technomancer programs mimic spells (you pick 'force' when you use it, rather than having to 'buy up' force on a program repeatedly). Submersion, avatars, and groups should be present.

4) Cyberware, Bioware, Nanites, Genengineering: It would be nice if these were all detailed and put together. Cosmetic and 'low-invasion' should either have little or no essence loss (I'd expect techniques have been refined to minimize this as much as possible anyway). Remove or minimize essence loss for pre-natal gen-engineering (if it doesn't cost essence to be a clone, it shouldn't cost essence to have inherited genengineering).

[Tanegar]

Differentiate between different magical styles - perhaps in a manner like martial arts is done. 'This tradition grants these tweaks, which no other tradition has' sort of thing.

This is quite an interesting idea.

Remove or minimize essence loss for pre-natal gen-engineering (if it doesn't cost essence to be a clone, it shouldn't cost essence to have inherited genengineering).

Agreed.

[Abschalten]

With the Matrix rules as they CURRENTLY are, making Technomancer complex forms act like spells is a bad idea. The Matrix requires way too many repeated rolls, and eventually the Fading would catch up with them and they would just pass out. Mages do not cast spells as often as technomancers need to roll for Matrix-related tests.

[Draco18s]

Quite. Which is one reason the matrix needs to get simpler--in terms of rolls-per-basic-task*--first.

*Basic tasks include, but are not limited to:
1) Opening a locked door
2) Finding a file on an encrypted server
3) Intercepting/Cancelling/Causing an alarm

[Tashiro]

Agreed. There really needs to be a simpler resolution to TM abilities. And I can see it done as a spell. 'I want this Attack Program at Force 5'. You do the fading test for it, and sustain it. Congrats. You have 'Attack 5' on hold for when you need it. If you wish to sustain a second program, then you suffer the penalty a mage would have for sustaining a spell.

But yes, hacking needs to be simplified, made to flow smoother. Hell, even if they made it an order-of-operations.

STEP 1: Break In. (Choose method: Sleaze, Exploit, etc) -- Takes # of Actions = Security Level of Network
STEP 2: Command Network. -- Takes # of Actions = Rating of Network
STEP 3: Run Command (Spoof, Etc) -- Takes # of Actions = Program Rating being commanded

So, for example, if there was a 'Red 5' network, it would take 4 IPs to break in, and 5 IPs to gain command. Then it might take, for example, 3 IPs to run a command (open a door or what-have-you).

It would make things flow a lot smoother.

[Draco18s]

STEP 1: Break In. (Choose method: Sleaze, Exploit, etc) -- Takes # of Actions = Security Level of Network
STEP 2: Command Network. -- Takes # of Actions = Rating of Network
STEP 3: Run Command (Spoof, Etc) -- Takes # of Actions = Program Rating being commanded

So, for example, if there was a 'Red 5' network, it would take 4 IPs to break in, and 5 IPs to gain command. Then it might take, for example, 3 IPs to run a command (open a door or what-have-you).

I should dig up the hacking rules I whipped up and take another look at them (in terms of number of times dice are rolled).

I know that the difference in rating between the hacker's link and the target machine dictated the time interval (so a huge difference in power--e.g. hacking the pentagon with your iphone--was in hours, where as the reverse, took simple actions).

It at least leveled the playing field somewhat, so that if you had a powerful machine you could do those powerful target hacks in reasonable times, but anyone could hack a door lock given a few minutes.

It also favored a hard-link or mutual signal range, as well as poor-device-relays (every rating 1 or lower device used as a relay point modified the rating difference, making the hack slower). Additional penalty applied to hacking certain things. I forget how I classified it, by cyberware was included, as it was something that shouldn't be hackable in that manner (but left the option).

[Lionhearted]

I would like for programs to be streamlined.
For one there's to damn many of them and they don't differentiate enough to make it immediately clear which one is applicable.
On the top of my head this is what I would do.
• Assume most of the common use programs are integrated to every commlink and have them run off the commlinks stats.
• Have the hacking programs as categories with clear uses. Like Attack/IC, Defense etc. Possibly with specialisations to give them some flair Like having a R4 Attack program with Black IC specialisation.
• Make attributes important for hackers to! it kinda rubs me the wrong way that being thick as mince does nothing to hamper your hacking.

That's just of the top of my head.

[Fatum]

• Assume most of the common use programs are integrated to every commlink and have them run off the commlinks stats.

This is a great idea.

[cryptoknight]

Suggestion: Take this "wish list" and throw it in the garbage where it belongs.

/agree

However, I'd like to see skill pools for character gen cap at 6, with post-gen characters able to go to 12.

After a while the mundanes start to wonder what Karma is good for.

[cryptoknight]

That could be good, though that last part I'd personally save until the new edition's Matrix book. It'll give a good reason to pick it up.

If I had to wait until that happened, I wouldn't bother to pick up any part of 5e until the matrix book came out.

Heck in that case, put out the Matrix book first, then the core rules.

[cryptoknight]

The commlink I think is a natural evolution of the cyberdeck. We have laptops and minicomputers which blow away anything we had 15 years ago, why can't Shadowrun have evolved their technology to be 'personal' in 20 years? In SR3, I was annoyed when I couldn't do basic hacking with a wrist computer, simply because I knew for a fact that people were hacking from laptops -- and that was back in 2001. I saw a parallel between the 'wrist computer' in Shadowrun versus the 'deck, and the laptop versus the PC. I'm actually glad that SR4 has accepted that your PC is now something worn all the time.

Ok

I have a Motorola Xoom Tablet I got 1 year ago.

I have a Samsung Galaxy S3 phone I got 1 month ago

and I have a Phenom2x4 3Ghz system with 16 GB of RAM 2 TB of HD space and a pair of Nvidia GTX-670 video cards in SLI that I got 2 years ago (and upgraded the video cards this year)

Tell me how they're even remotely equal to each other.

[Tashiro]

However, I'd like to see skill pools for character gen cap at 6, with post-gen characters able to go to 12. After a while the mundanes start to wonder what Karma is good for.

I'm of two minds about this. Yes, I agree, we need to tweak the skills and karma spending a bit, but I'm uncertain about raising skill caps. The thing is, the 1-6 scale is supposed to represent 'pitiful/perfect' to some extent. For attributes, 6 is human 'maximum', while for skills, 6 is supposed to represent 'mastery'. I could agree with augmented maximums going up to 9 (and specialties then reach 11) -- it puts a cap on just how big your dice pool can get without other weirdness. I want to see spirits and sprites have the same hard limit, actually - restricting their skills to the same level. Alternatively, I want to see spirits and sprites being able to teach others so their skills go higher than 6.

The other thing is, I would like to see how this would affect the dice pools and chances of hits. Mind, I actually liked the rule for 'buckets of dice' in War!. That, I think, was one of the better things in that rulebook.

[Tashiro]

Ok

I have a Motorola Xoom Tablet I got 1 year ago.

I have a Samsung Galaxy S3 phone I got 1 month ago

and I have a Phenom2x4 3Ghz system with 16 GB of RAM 2 TB of HD space and a pair of Nvidia GTX-670 video cards in SLI that I got 2 years ago (and upgraded the video cards this year)

Tell me how they're even remotely equal to each other.

They can all blow away PCs from 10 years ago, and all of them can run hacking software now. By 2070, your PC should probably be able to fit in your pocket, and serve all those functions. Your phone and tablet would be... hmm, I can't even begin to think what they'd be in 2070. A piece of clear paper you can program? (digital paper, which we're already developing now in the real world?)

[Draco18s]

The thing is, the 1-6 scale is supposed to represent 'pitiful/perfect' to some extent. For attributes, 6 is human 'maximum', while for skills, 6 is supposed to represent 'mastery'.

The problem is that it doesn't work. As soon as you start looking at "average" people doing "simple tasks" they fail about 25% of the time.
You start looking at skilled individuals and throw a moderately difficult problem at them, and they still fail a huge percentage of the time.

Any kind of race car driving, for instance. Most stock car racers aren't going to be "the best in the world" but in the real world, they don't crash that often. Oh, sure, there's a crash every race but you have to consider that there are a hundred cars on the track and it only takes 1 failure to take 10 cars out. With the skill system as it is, those 10 cars would take themselves out, taking another 6 cars (each) with them the first time they rolled dice.

It gets even worse when you start looking at the skill rules and Heavy Weapons. You have to be the #1 guy in the world at firing rockets to hit a moving target the size of a small moving truck...more than 50% of the time.

[Tashiro]

The problem is that it doesn't work. As soon as you start looking at "average" people doing "simple tasks" they fail about 25% of the time. You start looking at skilled individuals and throw a moderately difficult problem at them, and they still fail a huge percentage of the time.

You do have a point there. When looking at dice pools, I'd rather see the chance of failure geared towards an 'average' task. And place 'average' as "something that training is required to do successfully". For example, if you're not used to wiring a TV to an entertainment system, a 25% failure chance should be an option for the 'average individual' - you're considered unskilled (0). When you hit 1, I could see this as still something you might have to do, and re-do, to get it done right... so 25% is 'okay'.

Any kind of race car driving, for instance. Most stock car racers aren't going to be "the best in the world" but in the real world, they don't crash that often. Oh, sure, there's a crash every race but you have to consider that there are a hundred cars on the track and it only takes 1 failure to take 10 cars out. With the skill system as it is, those 10 cars would take themselves out, taking another 6 cars (each) with them the first time they rolled dice.

Hmm. You might have a point there. But the way I'd see it, is that a stock car race is an extended test, you're not going to be looking at it for 'did you fail this check this time', but as a 'who gets X hits first'. The crashes would be for when someone botches - which may call for an emergency test out of everyone else to ensure they don't crash at the same time. What would be the average race driver's skill, though? 3? (Specialty: Cars), for a total of 5? Maybe 4 (6)?

It gets even worse when you start looking at the skill rules and Heavy Weapons. You have to be the #1 guy in the world at firing rockets to hit a moving target the size of a small moving truck...more than 50% of the time.

That might actually be accurate... I've seen enough combat footage to know most shots do miss their targets (bullets, rockets, etc). If they didn't, the casualty rate would be much higher than it is. Most people aren't expecting to hit a specific target, but they're hoping to get in the general vicinity. I think guided rockets would be a little different in Shadowrun, but unguided munitions aren't really known for their accuracy in combat.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

With the rocket scatter rules, you have a low chance of hitting the broad side of a barn from close range ...

[Tashiro]

With the rocket scatter rules, you have a low chance of hitting the broad side of a barn from close range ...

Then that might need to be tightened some. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[All4BigGuns]

With the rocket scatter rules, you have a low chance of hitting the broad side of a barn from close range ...

And a high chance of vaporizing your team when the rocket comes back at you. Trust me, I've encountered that one...

[Draco18s]

You do have a point there. When looking at dice pools, I'd rather see the chance of failure geared towards an 'average' task. And place 'average' as "something that training is required to do successfully". For example, if you're not used to wiring a TV to an entertainment system, a 25% failure chance should be an option for the 'average individual' - you're considered unskilled (0). When you hit 1, I could see this as still something you might have to do, and re-do, to get it done right... so 25% is 'okay'.

The current rules as written don't start offering "reasonable rates of success" until you hit 8 dice minimum. Which ends up being "highly skilled, with a college degree" on the skill end of things.

Hmm. You might have a point there. But the way I'd see it, is that a stock car race is an extended test, you're not going to be looking at it for 'did you fail this check this time', but as a 'who gets X hits first'. The crashes would be for when someone botches - which may call for an emergency test out of everyone else to ensure they don't crash at the same time. What would be the average race driver's skill, though? 3? (Specialty: Cars), for a total of 5? Maybe 4 (6)?

Not going to work out the exact nature of how racing would be handled by the rules. Point is, with the driving rules as they are, your average joe can't ever get on the freeway. Soon as anything happens to cause a driving test, there's a 20 car pileup (say, "traffic suddenly comes to a hault after being at an average speed of 70 mph" which I've been in, and while sudden and potentially frightening, is not so difficult to avoid a crash*).

That might actually be accurate... I've seen enough combat footage to know most shots do miss their targets (bullets, rockets, etc). If they didn't, the casualty rate would be much higher than it is. Most people aren't expecting to hit a specific target, but they're hoping to get in the general vicinity. I think guided rockets would be a little different in Shadowrun, but unguided munitions aren't really known for their accuracy in combat.

"General vicinity" doesn't work in Shadowrun. Missiles have an effective damage radius of 4 meters, and beyond 2 any vehicle worth being on the road is going to ignore the damage. Average scatter is eleven meters. Yes, even for guided missiles using airburst.


*Best example: I was looking to change lanes to the right in order to get off on my exit. Look-ahead informed me that traffic was slowing, but not significantly. I looked right to check my mirror and blindspot--OH SHIT, THE CAR IN FRONT OF ME IS NOT MOVING; SWERVE RIGHT INTO THAT OPEN SPOT. Had I not already been interested in moving right or if my blindspot had not been properly checked and there was a car there, it'd have been pretty bad.

If that had come up in Shadowrun, and if I overestimated my skill ranks in driving at 2 (according to the skill listing in SR4, page 108, this is having actual training), with overestimating my reaction to 3, on average I would not pass the test (threshold 2; Threshold 1 is "traffic coming to a sudden stop" where as 2 is "steering through a narrow spot"). My car isn't sporty enough to have additionally handling modifiers, and the terrain was a freeway (so 0 modifiers from situation). I'm looking at 5 dice versus a threshold of 2.

If I were to follow the descriptions of the skill ratings to the letter, I'd have a 0 skill ("operator's license" and defaulting) and 3 reaction. Which would leave me with 2 dice against a threshold of 1 (at best). With 2 dice to avoid crashing a car when traffic comes to a halt, there would be multicar pileups on every major street in Shadowrun every hour of every day.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The current rules as written don't start offering "reasonable rates of success" until you hit 8 dice minimum. Which ends up being "highly skilled, with a college degree" on the skill end of things.



Not going to work out the exact nature of how racing would be handled by the rules. Point is, with the driving rules as they are, your average joe can't ever get on the freeway. Soon as anything happens to cause a driving test, there's a 20 car pileup (say, "traffic suddenly comes to a hault after being at an average speed of 70 mph" which I've been in, and while sudden and potentially frightening, is not so difficult to avoid a crash*).



"General vicinity" doesn't work in Shadowrun. Missiles have an effective damage radius of 4 meters, and beyond 2 any vehicle worth being on the road is going to ignore the damage. Average scatter is eleven meters. Yes, even for guided missiles using airburst.


*Best example: I was looking to change lanes to the right in order to get off on my exit. Look-ahead informed me that traffic was slowing, but not significantly. I looked right to check my mirror and blindspot--OH SHIT, THE CAR IN FRONT OF ME IS NOT MOVING; SWERVE RIGHT INTO THAT OPEN SPOT. Had I not already been interested in moving right or if my blindspot had not been properly checked and there was a car there, it'd have been pretty bad.

If that had come up in Shadowrun, and if I overestimated my skill ranks in driving at 2 (according to the skill listing in SR4, page 108, this is having actual training), with overestimating my reaction to 3, on average I would not pass the test (threshold 2; Threshold 1 is "traffic coming to a sudden stop" where as 2 is "steering through a narrow spot"). My car isn't sporty enough to have additionally handling modifiers, and the terrain was a freeway (so 0 modifiers from situation). I'm looking at 5 dice versus a threshold of 2.

If I were to follow the descriptions of the skill ratings to the letter, I'd have a 0 skill ("operator's license" and defaulting) and 3 reaction. Which would leave me with 2 dice against a threshold of 1 (at best). With 2 dice to avoid crashing a car when traffic comes to a halt, there would be multicar pileups on every major street in Shadowrun every hour of every day.

And yet, because of Grid Guide, you would have had absolutely no problems in Shadowrun. And since Grid Guide does exist in Shadowrun, very few people will actually have ANY training in Driving whatsoever. Why would they need it? *shrug*

[cryptoknight]

They can all blow away PCs from 10 years ago, and all of them can run hacking software now. By 2070, your PC should probably be able to fit in your pocket, and serve all those functions. Your phone and tablet would be... hmm, I can't even begin to think what they'd be in 2070. A piece of clear paper you can program? (digital paper, which we're already developing now in the real world?)

I'd argue that a 10 year old pc still has more possibilities than either my tablet or my phone.

My question is... where are the desktops of 2070?

In the realm of computing it's pretty much been a trade-off of mobility vs raw performance and horsepower.

We can extrapolate that out to 2070 easy enough.

My phone will have 128 cores running at 15 Ghz and 1 terabytes of ram

My Desktop would then have 512 cores running at 100 Ghz and 16 terabytes of Ram

Again, the bigger bulkier decker like devices should still be out there running circles performance wise around the sexy slim devices.

[UmaroVI]

My question is... where are the desktops of 2070?

They are called Nexuses, but all they let you do is have more personas and subscriptions, not better programs.

As for my wishlist: clear, carefully proofread rules. Especially for the matrix. I don't even care how it works, I just care that it works. Also, timely and clear errata. If 5E does nothing but clarify 4E's rules on messes like Mystic Adepts, cyberlimbs, etc. and then light the matrix rules on fire and make something that works in their place, I will be happy with it.

[Fatum]

I'd argue that a 10 year old pc still has more possibilities than either my tablet or my phone.

My question is... where are the desktops of 2070?

In Unwired. They're called Nexi.
The thing is, mobile devices are running compatible OS (just where Windows 8 is moving), so there's no reason to be tied to a stationary nexus for a hacker when there are isolated wireless networks that need to be hacked, etc.

[Elfenlied]

My wishlist:
1) Keep the wireless matrix, and simplify the rules enough to make combat hacking viable and enjoyable for casual gamers.
2) Integrate less-used skills into exisiting skills. There is no merit in having "Industrial Mechanic" as a separate skill when there's already Hardware. And please remove the clusterfoxtrott that are exotic skills.
3) Make the cost for higher-end 'ware scale better. Price*10 for Deltaware might be justifiable from a fluff perspective, but gameplay wise, it's ridiculous.
4) Make all niches and roles viable.