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[Tycho]

here you go


PS: oh, it's German... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[apple]

Funny thing: either there is a major difference between the German or English rules or between the quit starter rules and the final rules, but mages do only net hits as damage for their spells now. Thats true balancing ...

SYL

[apple]

And some quick infos from these rules

- Combat spell damage = net hits, but no drain

- You fight with markers in the matrix 1-3 marks are necessary for actions, 4 marks is the former admin mode. ((MARKs – Matrix Authentication Recognition
Keys)). Marks seem to the threshhold.

- Matrix defense is now willpower + intuition (delete marks) or

- You use a fork programm to hack two devices at the same time. You roll logic + hacking + bonus dices against the threshold of the item => each net hit is a mark => enough mark = the matrix target behave as you like, but you have to roll for every action again (in the matrix example the hacker tries to control two gun turrents at the same time and the gun turrets resist with their device rating

- Orks are now humans or humans are now orks (or someone forgot to swap the pics (or the reader forget to read the flaws)).

- Standard Mc Hughes have automatic gun turrets installed inside their shops (Food Fight into adventure is back).

- Some weapon damage values

Automatic Pistol 6P, accuracy 5+2
Taser: 9S, accuracy 5
Hunting Rifle: 11P, accuracy 7
MPi 7P, accuracy 4+2
Heavy Pistol 8P, accuracy 5+2
Melee Combat: 8S
Sword 10P

- Some armor values (seems to be 50% more armor)
12 armor jacked
9 cham suit
9 coat

- There are a lot of items which give bonus dices (lenses, mnemo, zerebral booster

- Standard dice pools of the quick starter chars are between 5 and 10 (attribute + skill)

the shaman has the advantage "mage (shamanistic tradition)

- Limits
Adept limits: body 6, mental 5, social 5
Hacker limits: body 5. mental 7, social 5
Street Sam: body 8, mental 5, social 4
Shaman: body 5, mental 5, social 7

- weapons have two ranges now, long and short. The reason could be the tuned down complexity of the QSR, or perhaps because the devs feel that the dark and gritty feeling needs close combat

- close combat seem to be upgraded, more damage (no more strength / 2, but simply strength as base damage), no more attribute + skill vs attribute + skill + skill, it follows the standard attack roles

SYL

[Larsine]

Adept limits: boy 6

Overshare. I did not need to know that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Oracle]

According to page 12 of the German quickstart rules, the number of initiative passes a character gets is variable again. -.-

[apple]

That was already known two or three blogs ago. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

[Oracle]

I shouldn't have stopped reading them, I guess.

[Stahlseele]

Much Text is missing.
For example, half of the Text in the Hacker Vrsus Old Maglock is missing for me.
And the first 2 lines in the description of the pre made characters are missing too.
And nothing at all about how Limits work. Just that a Baseballbat has a Limit of 4.
And Guns have Limits of 5(7) without and (with) smartlink with nothing about how
Laserpointers and other stuff will interact with these numbers at all . .

[apple]

There are no laser pointer in the preview ...
Limits are explained on page 9 and 10
There is no missing text.
I would suggest that you download it again

SYL

[Oracle]

Apperently Shadowrunners are willing to do runs against the mob for 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) now.

[Stahlseele]

@Apple:
Page 9: Limits exist and apply in Tests of Attribute+Skill, and in a comparing test, the limits apply to both sides.
Nowhere does it say how you get to calculate how big the limits are, as far as i can tell.

And yes, in the DriveThrough version, text is indeed missing for me.
In the Pegasus Version it ain't missing at all anymore.

[apple]

I have the DT Version and there is no tesxt missing (just compared it with the Pegaus vesion, it´s all the same).

And yes, it´s not explained how to calculate the limits. These are quick starter rules, you do not generate new characters, you use the archetypes (where the limits are already written down on the character sheet) and the given NPCs from food fight.

[bannockburn]

The human adept is an ork poser.
Look at her flaws (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[RHat]

@Apple:
Page 9: Limits exist and apply in Tests of Attribute+Skill, and in a comparing test, the limits apply to both sides.
Nowhere does it say how you get to calculate how big the limits are, as far as i can tell.

And yes, in the DriveThrough version, text is indeed missing for me.
In the Pegasus Version it ain't missing at all anymore.

It's previously been stated that you calculate inherent limits based on aspects of the character.

[apple]

I am wondering why there are no english QSR?

SYL

[Stahlseele]

And on which aspects?
It's kinda like:
"It's previously been stated that you calculate miles per gallon on aspects of the car"
without telling anybody wether it's PS, wheel-size, lift, fuel type, weight, size of the gas tank or airresistance.

[apple]

Your attributes ... as stated in previous blogs. And since you do not created new characters there is no need for the exact formula (since all the limits are already noted down for the NPCs). But you can check the values yourself and try to find out the formula.

SYL

[RHat]

And on which aspects?
It's kinda like:
"It's previously been stated that you calculate miles per gallon on aspects of the car"
without telling anybody wether it's PS, wheel-size, lift, fuel type, weight, size of the gas tank or airresistance.

Known factors are Attributes and Essence.

[Tycho]

as I wrote in the other thread:

Physical Limit: (Bod+Str+Agi)/2
Mental Limit: (Int+Log+Wil)/2
Social Limit: ? (maybe Cha+Cha+Ess)/2?

that would be my best guess

but I have to say, if a Limit of 5 is the norm, 7-8 is good and 14 would be the max (9+9+9)/2 = 14. I don't see any sence in these outside of cutting of really lucky rolls were your Limit takes effect. In most tests you will seldomly roll more than 5 hits...

[RHat]

Well, supposedly the Street Sam from SR4A would have a Phys-Limit of 10 (based on the PAX-East demo reports), which works with that math if we assume it rounds up...

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that Intuition is gonna feed into the Social limit though - in part because otherwise it means every Face is gonna be an Elf.

[hermit]

Funny thing: either there is a major difference between the German or English rules or between the quit starter rules and the final rules, but mages do only net hits as damage for their spells now. Thats true balancing ...

As Tigger stated on the Pegasus forums, they're translating and errating the English rules parallel to development of the same.

Standard Mc Hughes have automatic gun turrets installed inside their shops

McHugh's has been a fortress ever since NAGRL.

Hacker limits: body 5. mental 7, social 5

To be precise, the Mental limit is noted as 6(7), indicating Limits can be augmented in some way.

I am wondering why there are no english QSR?

They are out, in that they are used for demos on American conventions, just not available on the internet. Seems the Germans don't play their cards quite so close to their chest.

[Larsine]

As Tigger stated on the Pegasus forums, they're translating and errating the English rules parallel to development of the same.


McHugh's has been a fortress ever since NAGRL.


To be precise, the Mental limit is noted as 6(7), indicating Limits can be augmented in some way.


They are out, in that they are used for demos on American conventions, just not available on the internet. Seems the Germans don't play their cards quite so close to their chest.

English QSR should be available in print on June 15th. My FLGS has promised to keep a copy for me, even if I don't make it into the shop that day.

Source: http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/2013/03/12...e-rpg-day-2013/

[apple]

McHugh's has been a fortress ever since NAGRL.

Yes, and since thats its pretty strange in the world of SR, considering it´s not Cyberpunk 2020. But well, Food fight SR1 ...

SYL

[Bull]

I am wondering why there are no english QSR?

SYL

Last year a new set of Quick Start Rules were developed and released for Free RPG Day. The PDF was released shortly after it.

I know a new one was developed for this year, and the Free RPG day lists it as a flip book along with the Battletech Quickstart, same as last years. Beyond that though, I have no idea what the release plan is, or if it's the same as the German version.

However, I will say... Ork Poser Adept is hilarious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[thorya]

Skills go to 12 now right? How come none of the example characters have any skills above 4? I don't expect them to be min-maxed, but no skills in the upper half range of skills? Seems weird.

[Blade]

I think the point of having skills go as high as 12 is to let all starting characters have room for improvement. It's not surprising starting characters aren't supposed to have such high skills.

[CeeJay]

And we don't know how the character geenration system is working in detail yet (or do we?). So, it may be that these characters are what you typically get out of a SR5 starting character... but the pre-build characters have always kinda sucked, so I wouldn't take these as prime examples of SR5 starting characters.

-CJ

[Blade]

Oh yeah, we should expect some players coming up with character with pools of 20 and limits of 12 for their main skill a few days after the release of the core book.
And a few years later, when all books have been released, any starting character will be expected to have at least 15 in all his pools, 30 in his best pools, and limits will be something that gimps NPCs.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Bigity]

Apperently Shadowrunners are willing to do runs against the mob for 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) now.

Ugh. That's always been one of my big beefs. If you are a street sam sporting hundreds of thousands or more nuyen's worth of gear/ware, WTF would you work for peanuts.

[Bull]

Once upon a time, it was standard ops for character to have a backstory that explained where their 'ware came from. Sometimes it was payment for a run from a desperate fixer or johnson, sometimes it was stolen 'ware, and often they were ex-corp or ex-military who walked off with their hardware still attached.

Started gear does not necessarily represent "Stuff I saved up and bought". It represents the things you've somehow accumulated by hook or by crook prior to the game starting.

[Opti]

Once upon a time, it was standard ops for character to have a backstory that explained where their 'ware came from. Sometimes it was payment for a run from a desperate fixer or johnson, sometimes it was stolen 'ware, and often they were ex-corp or ex-military who walked off with their hardware still attached.

Started gear does not necessarily represent "Stuff I saved up and bought". It represents the things you've somehow accumulated by hook or by crook prior to the game starting.

This.

[Seerow]

Once upon a time, it was standard ops for character to have a backstory that explained where their 'ware came from. Sometimes it was payment for a run from a desperate fixer or johnson, sometimes it was stolen 'ware, and often they were ex-corp or ex-military who walked off with their hardware still attached.

Started gear does not necessarily represent "Stuff I saved up and bought". It represents the things you've somehow accumulated by hook or by crook prior to the game starting.

And if you're making 500 nuyen on a typical run, how the hell are you ever supposed to upgrade beyond what you start with at character generation?

[Stahlseele]

500 a run isn't even enough to cover ammo cost if you're unlucky . .

[Seerow]

Seriously, 1500-2000 is pretty much what I consider the low end of what a run is worth, just because going much lower than that your characters are literally putting all of their money into little things like ammo and lifestyle, never able to save up anything at all for things like the new gun they want, some better armor, improved cyber, etc. Nevermind that until you get to the 10-20k range, going out and stealing cars, and just generally making up your own runs is much more profitable than taking a job from someone else, and typically easier than your usual run.

[CanRay]

Apperently Shadowrunners are willing to do runs against the mob for 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) now.

Yeah, but that's 500¥ in German ¥. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mach_Ten]

Yeah, but that's 500¥ in German ¥. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Yeah, the German Mob is much more likely to ask you nicely to stop doing what you are doing and go home, compared to say, the russians

so the risk/reward metric is skewed.

I fully expect the English (UK) edition rules to be based in Manchester and reward about a million nuyen per run, if you live

[Bull]

I made no comment about the run reward. I don't speak German, so I haven't really looked at it beyond flipping through to look at the layout.

[hermit]

Yes, and since thats its pretty strange in the world of SR, considering it´s not Cyberpunk 2020. But well, Food fight SR1 ...

Actually, safe family dining probably has a lot of appeal in such a high violence world. It never seemed odd to me. I mean, just think of the 50s. Thrill gangers rampaging into the City's best Jazz club for the lulz (One Stage Before)! Gangers armed with tracked vehicles fighting it out in the streets (Wolf&Raven)! Annual Night of Rage reenactments! (Sprawl Sites, 2E)! Corporate-sponsored mercenaries/criminals run rampage, and corporate employees often face violent job changes (the game's premise)! Trolls with assault cannons robbing a Transrapid train (Harlequin)! The supermarket wars (Germany Sourcebook)! Murder TV (Murder TV)! And even today, elections without several bombs going off and attempts to murder voters are apparently unthinkable (Dirty Tricks, Missions Season 4). Shadowrun is in a perpetual state of Pakistan. And yes, in Pakistan, fast food restaurants DO have armed guards and metal detectors.

Once upon a time, it was standard ops for character to have a backstory that explained where their 'ware came from.

Ah, the good old pre-MMORPG days.

And if you're making 500 nuyen on a typical run, how the hell are you ever supposed to upgrade beyond what you start with at character generation?

Where do you get that this is a typical run? It is a favor for a mutual connection, actually - you also get free services from the Johnson,a nd it is explicitly mentioned that he can't pay much, too. It is hooding. Hooding pays shit, which is why it's not everybody's favourite job. I doubt this is the new standard payment. It pays reading a run before you complain about it.

Also, the run is set in Seattle, just to clear up any misconceptions.

[CanRay]

Actually, safe family dining probably has a lot of appeal in such a high violence world. It never seemed odd to me. I mean, just think of the 50s. Thrill gangers rampaging into the City's best Jazz club for the lulz (One Stage Before)! Gangers armed with tracked vehicles fighting it out in the streets (Wolf&Raven)! Annual Night of Rage reenactments! (Sprawl Sites, 2E)! Corporate-sponsored mercenaries/criminals run rampage, and corporate employees often face violent job changes (the game's premise)! And even today, elections without several bombs goingf off and attempts to murder voters are apparently unthinkable (Dirty Tricks, Missions Season 4). Shadowrun is in a perpetual state of Pakistan. And yes, in Pakistan, fast food restaurants DO have armed guards and metal detectors.

Great, now I'm homesick.

[KarmaInferno]

I really hope the final character sheet doesn't follow the layout they put in the German quickstart.

It violates so many design rules the graphic designer in me just cringes.




-k

[hermit]

Yeah, the layout's a bit confusing.

[KarmaInferno]

English QSR should be available in print on June 15th. My FLGS has promised to keep a copy for me, even if I don't make it into the shop that day.

Source: http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/2013/03/12...e-rpg-day-2013/

Yeah, that'll be too late for Origins, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)




-k

[Patrick Goodman]

I'm really trying to get them to release the PDF sooner. I should probably ping someone about it now, in fact....

[Oracle]

They included a table in the Food Fight adventure to simulate the consequences of eating at Mc Hughes. Anyone who doesn't roll at least one success on a body test, suffers from food poisoning. Even with two successes there is a point of stun damage. Way too much slapstick for me.

[apple]

And yes, in Pakistan, fast food restaurants DO have armed guards and metal detectors.

Oh, no one said anything against armed guards or scanners (btw, where are the cyberscanners?). Weapon turrets are something completely different, for a different world (like CP2020). All I am asking is for a little bit consistence. Nothing against weapon turrets in a dystopian, crime-ridden hyper-violent sixth world, but if weapon turrets are at McHughes, they should be standard in many other parts of the city (in fact they should be a pretty common sight with that warning at everyones door: http://files.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays...ry_ahead_8.jpg) and nothing exotic- and not simply in converted SR1 rule introduction. Consistency is nothing to be afraid of ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

[Bull]

Actually, if you go back and read some of the fiction from SR1, there were a few mentions about how one of McHugh's selling points was it's extreme security.

Shadowrun is supposed to be very dystopic. It got severely dialed back at the tail end of SR3 and in SR4 though, and one of our design goals in SR5 was to start reinforcing that in the world again.

[Critias]

Oh, no one said anything against armed guards or scanners (btw, where are the cyberscanners?). Weapon turrets are something completely different, for a different world (like CP2020). All I am asking is for a little bit consistence. Nothing against weapon turrets in a dystopian, crime-ridden hyper-violent sixth world, but if weapon turrets are at McHughes, they should be standard in many other parts of the city (in fact they should be a pretty common sight with that warning at everyones door: http://files.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays...ry_ahead_8.jpg) and nothing exotic- and not simply in converted SR1 rule introduction. Consistency is nothing to be afraid of ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

What makes you think they AREN'T standard in many other parts of the city? And it's not like these things are pop-up miniguns; they're pretty small, and could very easily be concealed all kinds of places.

[Draco18s]

Skills go to 12 now right? How come none of the example characters have any skills above 4? I don't expect them to be min-maxed, but no skills in the upper half range of skills? Seems weird.

As mentioned, but not explained in detail above, but starting chargen limits stayed the same. I.e. all 4 or lower except either two 5s or one 6.

[hermit]

Oh, no one said anything against armed guards or scanners (btw, where are the cyberscanners?). Weapon turrets are something completely different, for a different world (like CP2020).

Where's the huge difference between a gun turret and a guard, except that turrets are cheaper since SR4, and pilot software much better?

[Bigity]

Well, you'd think in a world where you can wave your commlink at something and hack it....but then again, a magician could wave a hand at a guard and control him about as easy.

Maybe they only fire gel rounds?

[hermit]

Well, you'd think in a world where you can wave your commlink at something and hack it....but then again, a magician could wave a hand at a guard and control him about as easy.

Maybe they only fire gel rounds?

Probably. Otherwise, guests who get killed because the system hits them and not some perp would ruin McHugh's reputation. The guards can then bag the bad guys and hand them to the Rent-a-Cops. Or maybe it fires Sitch'n'shock, if that's still around in SR5.

[CanRay]

Maybe they only fire gel rounds?

Chemical Rounds with DMSO and Special Sauce. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[hermit]

Chemical Rounds with DMSO and Special Sauce. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) Enjoy your meal!

[Bigity]

SnS still being around would be a deal breaker for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Nal0n]

SnS still being around would be a deal breaker for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Nonconductivity 6 on all Armor -> what's that SnS you talk about?

[Nath]

Shadowrun is supposed to be very dystopic. It got severely dialed back at the tail end of SR3 and in SR4 though, and one of our design goals in SR5 was to start reinforcing that in the world again.

I would say it was way earlier than that, by late 2nd edition. Novels published around that time did not have many dystopian elements. The Aztlan SB also wasn't half as dystopian as it could have been. I guess the focus given to metaplot centered on actual evil forces or mad entity a lot of attention away from social problems and all that (in a true dystopia, Renraku would have cut a deal with Deus).

[binarywraith]

Apperently Shadowrunners are willing to do runs against the mob for 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) now.

So about just stealing Americars and fencing them.

Sounds more profitable to be a chop-shop team than a runner team!

[hermit]

in a true dystopia, Renraku would have cut a deal with Deus

Since the U(CA)S Army was brought in, it was impossible to turn out like that. Not in the 90s and 00s. Besides, the point there was a return of government power to push back the corps. So yes, a lot less dystopic at the time. That is one thing I am kind of glad to see return, though it can be easily overdone.

So about just stealing Americars and fencing them.

Did you even read the file?

[Draco18s]

SnS still being around would be a deal breaker for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

SnS as shotgun-only ammo would be fine. It's allowing it in a holdout pistol (with the SAME damage code) that's absurd.

[Nal0n]

SnS as shotgun-only ammo would be fine. It's allowing it in a holdout pistol (with the SAME damage code) that's absurd.

There is a mechanic that let's negate you SnS almost totally. So what is so bad about it? Hollow-Point is much worse imho...

[binarywraith]

Did you even read the file?

Sadly, I'm not fluent in German, so no.

If I was, I'd be buying their sourcebooks instead, they seem to get better material. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[hermit]

Sadly, I'm not fluent in German, so no.

If I was, I'd be buying their sourcebooks instead, they seem to get better material. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Much better actually. And the entire line's in hardcover, on pretty robust paper with great binding (excluding the Anniversary Edition book). Oh, and they believe in Errata.

However, the adventure clearly says this is a hooding job, so 500 isn't payment for a standard run. You also get free services from a maybe-magical healer (the Johnson) as part of the deal.

[Nal0n]

Sadly, I'm not fluent in German, so no.

If I was, I'd be buying their sourcebooks instead, they seem to get better material. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Just because "we" get it spell-checked, errata'd and with some setting (AGL) specific Add-Ons? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[binarywraith]

Just because "we" get it spell-checked, errata'd and with some setting (AGL) specific Add-Ons? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Shit, man, spellchecking's enough to sell me. Errata I don't have to sweat my brain into reasoning out would blow my mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Stahlseele]

We also get all the Racist Bulldrek cut out and replaced by actually good stuff . .

[hermit]

Shit, man, spellchecking's enough to sell me. Errata I don't have to sweat my brain into reasoning out would blow my mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

We're just pesky, finicky people like that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The downside is not everything got translated. DotA only printed, missions S4 not at all, neither Seattle 2072 nor any of the plot hook books.

[binarywraith]

We're just pesky, finicky people like that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The downside is not everything got translated. DotA only printed, missions S4 not at all, neither Seattle 2072 nor any of the plot hook books.

Does that include WAR?

[Stahlseele]

On the other Hand, we got Print Versions of some of the US PDF Only Stuff too . .
No no, Bogota! Got translated. And all the stupid racist Bulldrek got cut out and replaced by good stuff.

[hermit]

Does that include WAR?

Errata'd and edited for being less offensive, but yes. And with a pretty decent add-on about the German armed forces, the Eurowars, and the first MilSpec Tech. Can't say they didn't make an effort, at least. Stormfront will not be entirely translated, though.

[Black Swan]

Stupid unilingual brain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Patrick Goodman]

Must...not...lose...temper....

[bannockburn]

Must...not...lose...temper....

I'm interested in why you would?

[Stahlseele]

Errata'd and edited for being less offensive, but yes. And with a pretty decent add-on about the German armed forces, the Eurowars, and the first MilSpec Tech. Can't say they didn't make an effort, at least. Stormfront will not be entirely translated, though.

Cherrypickings!
Everything usefull will get used i think.

[Cheops]

Once upon a time, it was standard ops for character to have a backstory that explained where their 'ware came from. Sometimes it was payment for a run from a desperate fixer or johnson, sometimes it was stolen 'ware, and often they were ex-corp or ex-military who walked off with their hardware still attached.

Started gear does not necessarily represent "Stuff I saved up and bought". It represents the things you've somehow accumulated by hook or by crook prior to the game starting.

Still doesn't justify why someone with 1 million nuyen worth of ware, rigger, or decker gear would ever accept a job for 500 nuyen. That's the type of pay you would have been pulling back when you were first assembling that million worth of gear not what you should be making now.

Not to mention that Mages get paid more than that just to place wards at exactly 0% risk of death.

Things were no different "back in the day" than they are now.

[Critias]

Still doesn't justify why someone with 1 million nuyen worth of ware, rigger, or decker gear would ever accept a job for 500 nuyen. That's the type of pay you would have been pulling back when you were first assembling that million worth of gear not what you should be making now.

Not to mention that Mages get paid more than that just to place wards at exactly 0% risk of death.

Things were no different "back in the day" than they are now.

Maybe because he's doing the job for more than just money?

By your reasoning, no one with a house, a car, a college education, a savings account, a flatscreen, a wife, two kids, a motorcycle, a few guns, prescription glasses, a shelf full of books, and an X-Box 360 should ever accept a job for just some pizza and a beer or two (because seriously, why would they need just some pizza and a few beers, look at all the stuff they have!)...yet friends still help friends move, don't they?

[Patrick Goodman]

I'm interested in why you would?

Stahlseele slaps the word "racist" around with a very broad brush. The way he's using it, everything CGL does is racist.

I, for one, am sick and damn tired of being lumped into things with that broad brush he's slapping around. Maybe he didn't mean it that way, but it's sure what he seems to be saying. It offends me that people think of me that way.

[Draco18s]

There is a mechanic that let's negate you SnS almost totally. So what is so bad about it? Hollow-Point is much worse imho...

You mean Non-Conductive?

That's nice and all, but I prefer 6 points of thermal insulation (I'd rather be electrocuted than set on fire, TBH).

(Hint: R6 Non-Cond is great, but it precludes adding any other elemental resistances)

[CanRay]

Stahlseele slaps the word "racist" around with a very broad brush. The way he's using it, everything CGL does is racist.

I, for one, am sick and damn tired of being lumped into things with that broad brush he's slapping around. Maybe he didn't mean it that way, but it's sure what he seems to be saying. It offends me that people think of me that way.

At least you weren't called a Misogynist.

[apple]

Where's the huge difference between a gun turret and a guard, except that turrets are cheaper since SR4, and pilot software much better?

In the meaning. Guards, even armed ones, are pretty normal in SR and are described as such. Even today, depending on the location and the country, armed guards are normal. Turrets however, concealed ones and open ones are one step further - they are nothing short of permanent weapon entrenchments and should described and used as such. It´s like having bunker doors, barbed wire lines or carrying assault weapons or military grade armor openly etc.

Now, you can have them. In a very dystopian, violent, fragmented world with only MegaCorps at the push button and with minimal government power a weapon turret as a security measure could be described as quite normal - and I personally would prefer that kind of world. But then I would love to have a consistent line with all the other descriptions in the basic book, splat books, setting descriptions etc. And yes, if I read my SR2 +3 +4 bookjs I don´t have this feeling. I have this nice cozy Deus Ex light cyberpunk feeling, which is totally ok, but not that "fucked up "the world is actively trying to kill you" feeling" (like, for example, in CP2020, SLA Industries or (at least in some aspects) Eclipse Phase).

SYL

[Cochise]

Where's the huge difference between a gun turret and a guard, except that turrets are cheaper since SR4, and pilot software much better?

~hmm~ If the differences were perceived as that little, a greater number of german SR fans wouldn't have heavily critizised Mr. H.J. Alper's use of gun turrets on the roofs of ALDI stores as part of desciption of the setting back in the old SR2/SR3 days ...

[apple]

They were anti air turrets, or?

SYL

[Shinobi Killfist]

Funny thing: either there is a major difference between the German or English rules or between the quit starter rules and the final rules, but mages do only net hits as damage for their spells now. Thats true balancing ...

SYL

HAH. So lets see you have magic 6+spell casting 6, so 12 dice. You roll get 4 hits. Its a 2 stat defense system now as I understand it so lets say average joe with 3 willpower+ 3 whatever the other stat is or 6 dice he gets 2 hits. You did 2 boxes of damage. So why did you even bother casting a spell this pass? Hell even if magic kept the one stat defense that is only 3 boxes of damage. Hell if you do gross hits in damage it still sucks. Staring at him menacingly would be a better use of your time. Lol I hope that is an old rule that got caught in playtesting. If that made it through playtesting I am going to have a hard time believing they playtested well anything.

[Seerow]

HAH. So lets see you have magic 6+spell casting 6, so 12 dice. You roll get 4 hits. Its a 2 stat defense system now as I understand it so lets say average joe with 3 willpower+ 3 whatever the other stat is or 6 dice he gets 2 hits. You did 2 boxes of damage. So why did you even bother casting a spell this pass? Hell even if magic kept the one stat defense that is only 3 boxes of damage. Hell if you do gross hits in damage it still sucks. Staring at him menacingly would be a better use of your time. Lol I hope that is an old rule that got caught in playtesting. If that made it through playtesting I am going to have a hard time believing they playtested well anything.

It wouldn't be so bad if they were switching bad to LMSD damage, where that 2 successes would be 3 boxes of damage, and one more successes would be 6.



Unrelated: I do like the idea of debuffs reducing limits rather than dicepool, so they can have a much greater effect much faster. If you have a limit of 5(7) with your gun, and get hit with chaos with 4 successes, having your limit go from 7 to 3 is going to be a much bigger deal than having your dice pool go from 17 to 13. And one extra casting could potentially take the guy out of the fight.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It wouldn't be so bad if they were switching bad to LMSD damage, where that 2 successes would be 3 boxes of damage, and one more successes would be 6.



Unrelated: I do like the idea of debuffs reducing limits rather than dicepool, so they can have a much greater effect much faster. If you have a limit of 5(7) with your gun, and get hit with chaos with 4 successes, having your limit go from 7 to 3 is going to be a much bigger deal than having your dice pool go from 17 to 13. And one extra casting could potentially take the guy out of the fight.

Oh totally limit drops are like taking hits away it is powerful. Spells like that are about as useful as they were in 1-3e where it bumped the TN. I'm laughing because I saw a FB post about how happy someone was now that stunball wasn't on his spell list anymore. At the time I was like yeah, right. Well yeah if you make something useless no one will take it, hey next time why don't they go for balanced so people who like stunball can take it if they want.

[Seerow]

Oh totally limit drops are like taking hits away it is powerful. Spells like that are about as useful as they were in 1-3e where it bumped the TN. I'm laughing because I saw a FB post about how happy someone was now that stunball wasn't on his spell list anymore. At the time I was like yeah, right. Well yeah if you make something useless no one will take it, hey next time why don't they go for balanced so people who like stunball can take it if they want.

Heh that reminds me, my last character actually got a bonus point of karma because the DM was so shocked someone was playing a mage without stunball. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[thorya]

HAH. So lets see you have magic 6+spell casting 6, so 12 dice. You roll get 4 hits. Its a 2 stat defense system now as I understand it so lets say average joe with 3 willpower+ 3 whatever the other stat is or 6 dice he gets 2 hits. You did 2 boxes of damage. So why did you even bother casting a spell this pass? Hell even if magic kept the one stat defense that is only 3 boxes of damage. Hell if you do gross hits in damage it still sucks. Staring at him menacingly would be a better use of your time. Lol I hope that is an old rule that got caught in playtesting. If that made it through playtesting I am going to have a hard time believing they playtested well anything.

Depends, 3 boxes of damage in an area attack is more than most grenades do a lot of the time currently and against a tank troll there are times I would happily take 2-3 boxes a round over whatever is going to get through that 20+ soak pool. I would have liked to see it a little closer to what I see as the sweet spot of damage with an average of 6P, but it will probably still get used it just won't be the mandatory combat spell.

[Shortstraw]

Stahlseele slaps the word "racist" around with a very broad brush. The way he's using it, everything CGL does is racist.

I, for one, am sick and damn tired of being lumped into things with that broad brush he's slapping around. Maybe he didn't mean it that way, but it's sure what he seems to be saying. It offends me that people think of me that way.

You are always speaking out against infected with those nasty blood drinking stereotypes - integration not discrimination Ghouls are people too!!!

[Critias]

If that made it through playtesting I am going to have a hard time believing they playtested well anything.

Gotta love how "there's a rule I don't like" automatically means "no one playtested anything," instead of just meaning it went through playtesting and lots of people besides you liked it just fine.

[DMiller]

HAH. So lets see you have magic 6+spell casting 6, so 12 dice. You roll get 4 hits. Its a 2 stat defense system now as I understand it so lets say average joe with 3 willpower+ 3 whatever the other stat is or 6 dice he gets 2 hits. You did 2 boxes of damage. So why did you even bother casting a spell this pass? Hell even if magic kept the one stat defense that is only 3 boxes of damage. Hell if you do gross hits in damage it still sucks. Staring at him menacingly would be a better use of your time. Lol I hope that is an old rule that got caught in playtesting. If that made it through playtesting I am going to have a hard time believing they playtested well anything.

Wasn’t there a mention of spellcasting becoming a simple action too? I could be wrong here. But based on that assumption…

No weapon, no ammo, no drain and a simple action…

Mage stares at a target for about 1 second and does between 4 and 6 boxes of damage without even causing a bead of sweat to form on his brow… Yea, man mages got hit right in the face if a HUGE nerf stick. (NOT)

It seems like they did change some of the balance around, but not too bad really.

I am really looking forward to the English release of the main book, I want to see how this all plays out.

[Bull]

Again, haven't read the German Quickstart because, well, not German, and my High School Latin doesn't help me with that language at all.

But, I'll risk toeing my NDA to say that yes, Mages take Drain in SR5.

[RHat]

The Simple Action Casting thing was, as I recall, something to do with "reckless casting", which could be done at a Drain penalty...

I wouldn't be surprised if the QSR happened to be missing some rules for the sake of simplicity.

[DMiller]

Hrm... I stand corrected...

Based on QSR mages are tough... Again waiting for the release of the book because... I WANT TO KNOW!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Gotta love how "there's a rule I don't like" automatically means "no one playtested anything," instead of just meaning it went through playtesting and lots of people besides you liked it just fine.

I didn't realise the intent of SR5 was to make combat the slowly beat the weak to death over 5 passes game. Direct combat spells weaker than before, sure that would be fine. So weak you are better off using a heavy pistol with a half assed skill, probably not so good.

[Critias]

I didn't realise the intent of SR5 was to make combat the slowly beat the weak to death over 5 passes game. Direct combat spells weaker than before, sure that would be fine. So weak you are better off using a heavy pistol with a half assed skill, probably not so good.

More snark, still no rational defense of your previous snark (despite being very directly called on it). The more hyperbolic some posters become about all this (while still operating off an incomplete picture), the more difficult it becomes to try and have something like a civil conversation to try and encourage people to keep a level head.

[Bull]

Play nice kids.

[Shinobi Killfist]

More snark, still no rational defense of your previous snark (despite being very directly called on it). The more hyperbolic some posters become about all this (while still operating off an incomplete picture), the more difficult it becomes to try and have something like a civil conversation to try and encourage people to keep a level head.

I hope I am missing something. Because by the math shown a single net hit from a heavy pistol will do more damage to a 6 body 12 armor target than a combat spell cast at a random joe from a mage with 6 magic, and 6 spellcasting. That does not seem like good math to me for a game system where combat spells are meant to be used at all. Hell with drain there probably is a decent chance the mage will hurt themselves more than thier targets. Well that is probably wrong since you probably wont cast these spells past force 5 since more force is a bit of a waste past your expected gross hits.

[Grinder]

And all the stupid racist Bulldrek got cut out and replaced by good stuff.

What had been left out of War! has been two or three adventure hooks iirc. Watch your words, ok?

[CeeJay]

HAH. So lets see you have magic 6+spell casting 6, so 12 dice. You roll get 4 hits. Its a 2 stat defense system now as I understand it so lets say average joe with 3 willpower+ 3 whatever the other stat is or 6 dice he gets 2 hits. You did 2 boxes of damage. So why did you even bother casting a spell this pass? Hell even if magic kept the one stat defense that is only 3 boxes of damage. Hell if you do gross hits in damage it still sucks. Staring at him menacingly would be a better use of your time. Lol I hope that is an old rule that got caught in playtesting. If that made it through playtesting I am going to have a hard time believing they playtested well anything.

No, spells are only resisted with willpower (mana spells) or body (physical spells) plus counterspelling (when available). So, you should get about 3-4 net hits against non-magicians usually.

And yes, the QSR spells don't have drain, but than firearms don't have recoil either... so I think both have been left out for sake of simplicity.

-CJ

Edit: Oh, I played the Fast Foof Fight scenario with some friends last night. And you're right. The magician's damage output is nowhere near what we are used to from SR4. The magician's player quickly switched to the taser which does a whopping 9S damage now. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the drain has also changed and how reckless casting will fit into that.

[Stahlseele]

Stahlseele slaps the word "racist" around with a very broad brush. The way he's using it, everything CGL does is racist.

I, for one, am sick and damn tired of being lumped into things with that broad brush he's slapping around. Maybe he didn't mean it that way, but it's sure what he seems to be saying. It offends me that people think of me that way.

i am talking about stuff like fighting jewish spirits in auschwitz to get the scalpell of a nazi clerk (no i am not making this up) and poisoning gypsie wells . .
i sure hope you did not have anything to do with these. i'd be very disappointed to learn otherwise . .

[Grinder]

Your words read like CGL is releasing racist content on a regular base, what is clearly not the case.