Rules questions for 5th Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[redwulfe]

So, it has been said that SR5 limited edition will possibly be at origins on Friday. I was wondering if one of the lucky customers who was able to make the purchase or others who have read the book, and may or may not be still held under an NDA, be so kind as to answere a few questions for the rest of us?

1. Could you tell me the called shot rules. I'm very curious about it as I was not a fan of it in 4th at all?

2. Could you talk more with us about the matrix rules, specifically deck attribute swapping and do programs have ratings?

3. Is drain actually based on straight force now and not force decided by 2?

4. What is the penalty for reckless spell casting?

Thanks, I'm sure others will have questions as well.

On a side note if any of you picked up a second copy you are willing to part with I would be more than happy to take of you hands. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cube]

Oh! Can I add a question to this list?

Inquiring Minds want to know how Technomancers have changed.

[Critias]

FWIW, I'm trying to get an answer from the Boss-Man, as to just how NDA'ed up we still are since the book has (mostly) hit shelves. I'd tackle 'em all if I could, but the last thing I want to do is trip up this close to the NDA finish line. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

ETA: "The book should be out tomorrow, so hold up until then." Sorry.

[Temperance]

Inquiring Minds want to know how Technomancers have changed.

I'd qualify as an inquiring mind. My current SR4 campaign has only had one game session. I'm playing the TM in the group. My first hacker. :/ There is a *slight* chance we'll move editions, but this question is highly relevant to my interests.

I'd also like to add a multi-part question. Adept/Mystic Adepts: Adepts get their adept powers for free at character creation. MAs have to buy their Adept power points with Karma. Part A: Can Adepts buy additional power points or are they capped at Magic rating in power points? Part B: Post creation, does this balance remain true? IE: MA buys up magic, then pays separately for their power point. Part C: What, if any, do you see as the balancing factor between Adepts/MAs/Magicians? (Cause right now, MAs seem to be holding most of the goodies.)

FWIW, I'm trying to get an answer from the Boss-Man, as to just how NDA'ed up we still are since the book has (mostly) hit shelves. I'd tackle 'em all if I could, but the last thing I want to do is trip up this close to the NDA finish line. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Today, you're my hero. You might not be tomorrow, due to the whims of fate. But today? Yes, sir!

-Temperance

[Critias]

Today, you're my hero. You might not be tomorrow, due to the whims of fate. But today? Yes, sir!

-Temperance

Just FYI, but I added an edit to the above post; I've gotta wait 'till tomorrow. In the meantime, I've got a word document all full up and ready to go, I just can't copy-pasta it over to the forums yet.

[cryptoknight]

The part that sucks is that I couldn't pre-order said book, or even PDF on the battlecorps website.

And yet... it will be out tomorrow... at a con I can't make... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Temperance]

Just FYI, but I added an edit to the above post; I've gotta wait 'till tomorrow. In the meantime, I've got a word document all full up and ready to go, I just can't copy-pasta it over to the forums yet.

Bah! Then I suppose your hero-hood will have to wait a day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The part that sucks is that I couldn't pre-order said book, or even PDF on the battlecorps website.

And yet... it will be out tomorrow... at a con I can't make... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Right there with ya. I preordered my hardcopy through Amazon. At worst, I pay $36 for a $60 book. I'll probably buy the PDF through DTRPG at full price though.

-Temperance

[Critias]

The part that sucks is that I couldn't pre-order said book, or even PDF on the battlecorps website.

And yet... it will be out tomorrow... at a con I can't make... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Con exclusives are meant to be rewards to those who are at the con, not punishments for those who aren't.

[Prime Mover]

Con exclusives are meant to be rewards to those who are at the con, not punishments for those who aren't.

And yet.... I feel punished.

[cryptoknight]

Con exclusives are meant to be rewards to those who are at the con, not punishments for those who aren't.

And yet they turn into both.

If I could buy the PDF and not the book... it would feel less like a punishment.

[Cube]

...Anyway, I am sure important rule questions will be answered by tomorrow. I've got so much I want to try out!

How different are Technomancers? Is Karmagen in the core book? Can I still make the prettiest Troll in Seattle?

Granted... we can't exactly switch to 5e until Run Faster is released (The cost of having a party with two shifters, two changelings, 1 Metavariant, a Drake, and an AI in it, I guess). But knowing how Technomancers work will be a big boon. I'm secretly hoping for Matrix Shenanigans.

[Critias]

As promised, here's some basics. Jason told me I could post answers today, with time zones and stuff I imagine the Origins vendor's hall won't be opening too long from now, so here you go. All that said, I'm still kind of erring on the side of not just copying chapter and verse, here, 'cause I don't want to see every single one of my future contracts get torn up and my current projects turn to ash in my mouth. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

1. Could you tell me the called shot rules. I'm very curious about it as I was not a fan of it in 4th at all?

Even with the boss's half-assed permission, I'm not gonna copy-pasta over a big chunk of rules, sorry. What I will do is basically go over the list of the called shots that're available, while staying away from the specific rules. You can shoot stuff outta someone's hand, you can specifically shoot someone (or near someone) in order to give them a pretty hefty penalty on their next action (or to get a big intimidate bonus), you can make a stun attack do lethal damage instead (or make a lethal attack do some stun damage, too), you can specifically try to knock someone off their feet, drop someone's initiative, or you can go for extra damage.

All in all, there's some pretty cool options, I think. And a lot of fun was had playtesting them all to hell and back, just going "Whee, I'll try this crazy thing, now," and then seeing how the list changed week to week.

2. Could you talk more with us about the matrix rules, specifically deck attribute swapping and do programs have ratings?

You can swap your matrix attributes around as a free action, and programs don't have ratings.

3. Is drain actually based on straight force now and not force decided by 2?

The formulas for drain are based on Force (not 1/2 Force), yes. Many of them were heavily changed otherwise, though; they didn't just add 1/2 the drain to everything, don't worry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

4. What is the penalty for reckless spell casting?

Increased drain.

Hope this all helped!

[Slacker]

Dammit. Now I want my hands on a copy of the game even more!

Good thing I have a friend at Origins right now that is picking me up one and will be sending it to me quickly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[redwulfe]

Thanks for the quick reply. I fully understand not giving the exact rules I don't want less shadowrun writers, need to feed my addiction. On the called shot thing the main thing I was wanting to know is if they kept the part where the armor is the negative modifier. It always seemed odd to me that by putting on shin gaurds suddenly made it harder to shoot someone in the head. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Red

[Cube]

What about Technomancers? How do Complex Forms work now? Are they more like spells?

[Seerow]

What about Technomancers? How do Complex Forms work now? Are they more like spells?

Adding onto this: Are complex forms different from programs the decker can get? If not, are there still large lists of mandatory programs every decker needs, or are you assumed to have the basics and every program/CF you get something actually new/interesting?

[Critias]

Adding onto this: Are complex forms different from programs the decker can get?

"Yes," and that's about as specific as I can (and/or want to) get. I'm not gonna give y'all all the goods on how technos work, it's several pages of text (and, if anyone, the guy that wrote them could summarize them better than me anyhow). But yes, their Complex Forms very much are different than a decker's programs.

[Seerow]

"Yes," and that's about as specific as I can (and/or want to) get. I'm not gonna give y'all all the goods on how technos work, it's several pages of text (and, if anyone, the guy that wrote them could summarize them better than me anyhow). But yes, their Complex Forms very much are different than a decker's programs.

Thanks for the answer. That's something that's had me worried since we saw Technos getting roughly half the spells that a Mage gets with the same investment. I'll wait and see what comes of it.

[Valerian]

Is it possible to have a little explanation on simple and complexe actions related to fire gun, because preview #4 is not clear on that ?

[BishopMcQ]

Hacking follows the Skill + Attribute model that we see with skill tests. Programs provide adjustments--changing DVs, modifiers, etc. Complex Forms are a completely different beast entirely and can provide a slew of effects that REALLY differentiate them from hackers. Also, not all Complex Forms are created equally. The stronger the effect, the bigger the Fading.

I really like the direction the devs went with SR5, Everything has a price and that doesn't always mean nuyen.

[Daedelus]

Can someone give an example of the bonus gained by maintain an active wireless signal. Say for Wire Reflexes, and a non combat oriented item?

[KarmaInferno]

For Wired Reflexes, normally they don't stack with Reaction Enhancers, but if you Matrix connect them both, they do stack.

Non-combat, hmm... Audio and Video Enhancement normally just increase the Limit on Perception skill tests by their rating, but if they are Matrix connected, they also add their rating in dice to the test.

"Wireless" seems more to mean "Matrix Connected", not just "using wireless connectivity instead of wired". It may have been more accurate to call them "Online Bonuses".



-k

[Daedelus]

Cool thanks! What about this matrix noise we are hearing about. Any details?

[Bigity]

For Wired Reflexes, normally they don't stack with Reaction Enhancers, but if you Matrix connect them both, they do stack.

Non-combat, hmm... Audio and Video Enhancement normally just increase the Limit on Perception skill tests by their rating, but if they are Matrix connected, they also add their rating in dice to the test.

"Wireless" seems more to mean "Matrix Connected", not just "using wireless connectivity instead of wired". It may have been more accurate to call them "Online Bonuses".



-k

See, it just seems most of these wifi bonuses are just going to be made up. What possible advantage for reflexes or reaction enhancers could there be that applies connected to the matrix and not just connected to each other (and other cyberware - aka DNI).

It would take me a long time to get used to that - and do these advantages balance out the risk of decking by a hostile decker? Or is the bonus insignificant in the face of, say a decker being able to shut them off completely?

[Tanegar]

See, it just seems most of these wifi bonuses are just going to be made up. What possible advantage for reflexes or reaction enhancers could there be that applies connected to the matrix and not just connected to each other (and other cyberware - aka DNI).

It would take me a long time to get used to that - and do these advantages balance out the risk of decking by a hostile decker? Or is the bonus insignificant in the face of, say a decker being able to shut them off completely?

Bingo. It sounds like this is just a gameplay justification for an augmented character holding the Idiot Ball. I can see having an internal, hardwired network connecting all your cyberware together; that not only makes sense, it's actually a good idea. Having your 'ware shouting to each other in the radio band? That's breathtakingly dumb.

[BishopMcQ]

It can also be looked at as a possible edge that comes with a risk. Is it worth the bonus to turn it on? Can you get the job done without the bonus? Stone-cold pros may shrug at the things kids do, or may button up their defenses with IC and encryption while they dare someone to be bold enough to touch their signal.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Bingo. It sounds like this is just a gameplay justification for an augmented character holding the Idiot Ball. I can see having an internal, hardwired network connecting all your cyberware together; that not only makes sense, it's actually a good idea. Having your 'ware shouting to each other in the radio band? That's breathtakingly dumb.

Yeah... If I ever GM for SR5, that's one of the first things that's getting houseruled out, balance be damned. There's only so much stupidity my suspension of disbelief can take before it cries bullshit with the volume of a thousand voices screaming out as one. That shit flies past that line at a significant fraction of the speed of light.

[Aaron]

Cool thanks! What about this matrix noise we are hearing about. Any details?

Noise is a mechanic that covers all of the things that make it harder to affect a target with a Matrix action. This includes distance, interference, attenuation, and jamming all in one rating. There are a few sources of noise reduction.

While we're talking Matrix, I wanted to mention that Matrix attributes in a deck can be reconfigured at a rate of one swap of two ratings per Free Action. There is a program that lets you completely reconfigure your deck all in one go.

[Seerow]

Noise is a mechanic that covers all of the things that make it harder to affect a target with a Matrix action. This includes distance, interference, attenuation, and jamming all in one rating. There are a few sources of noise reduction.

While we're talking Matrix, I wanted to mention that Matrix attributes in a deck can be reconfigured at a rate of one swap of two ratings per Free Action. There is a program that lets you completely reconfigure your deck all in one go.

This might mean more to us with more idea of what matrix attributes actually are? I'm assuming we don't just have Firewall/System/Response/Signal anymore. And being able to spend an action to shift your signal into a boosted Firewall doesn't really make a lot of sense.

[Aaron]

Is it possible to have a little explanation on simple and complexe actions related to fire gun, because preview #4 is not clear on that ?

Rather than spend, say, two Simple Actions sending six bullets downrange from your Ingram Smartgun, you do it in a single Complex Action. It means that people's action phases take less time and combats move more smoothly.

[Aaron]

This might mean more to us with more idea of what matrix attributes actually are? I'm assuming we don't just have Firewall/System/Response/Signal anymore. And being able to spend an action to shift your signal into a boosted Firewall doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing, Firewall.

[focke]

Could anyone shed some light on how contacts are obtained during char gen?

[RHat]

Bingo. It sounds like this is just a gameplay justification for an augmented character holding the Idiot Ball. I can see having an internal, hardwired network connecting all your cyberware together; that not only makes sense, it's actually a good idea. Having your 'ware shouting to each other in the radio band? That's breathtakingly dumb.

I don't have the book, so I can't say for certain, but it might be the case that due to the changes in Matrix protocols it is no longer possible to create those small, isolated networks without something major at its core. It could actually be a structural change away from the ad-hoc mesh networking of SR4.

[tasti man LH]

Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing, Firewall.

Waitwaitwait...so does this mean that all decks have essentially a built-in Attack program?

As well as a built-in Sleaze/Stealth program?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Not really a rule, but a thought based on editions 1-4.


gear, spells, ware etc. how much is taken from later 4e supplements. The tradition seems to be roughly the same amount of crap in the main book for each edition and then weapon book#1 is pretty much like weapons book # 1. Will it be like in all the previous editions, where until we are a few years in everything is just a rehash of the older editions stuff under the new editions rules. We sticking with the same or did you try to cram as much of that stuff as you could into the main book so when the street samurai handbook comes out it actually feels like we are getting a new book.

[Tanegar]

I don't have the book, so I can't say for certain, but it might be the case that due to the changes in Matrix protocols it is no longer possible to create those small, isolated networks without something major at its core. It could actually be a structural change away from the ad-hoc mesh networking of SR4.

Only nexi can support a network? What? Go home, RHat, you're drunk.

[RHat]

Only nexi can support a network? What? Go home, RHat, you're drunk.

Never said nexi - but perhaps peripheral nodes cannot independently operate the new networking protocols, requiring something like a commlink to manage it.

[Cube]

Hacking follows the Skill + Attribute model that we see with skill tests. Programs provide adjustments--changing DVs, modifiers, etc. Complex Forms are a completely different beast entirely and can provide a slew of effects that REALLY differentiate them from hackers. Also, not all Complex Forms are created equally. The stronger the effect, the bigger the Fading.

I really like the direction the devs went with SR5, Everything has a price and that doesn't always mean nuyen.

Would you (or anyone, really) mind giving an example of a Complex Form? My friends and I are really eager to learn more.

(Also, thank you everyone for the info so far. I am really excited about a lot of this!)

[apple]

It can also be looked at as a possible edge that comes with a risk. Is it worth the bonus to turn it on? Can you get the job done without the bonus? Stone-cold pros may shrug at the things kids do, or may button up their defenses with IC and encryption while they dare someone to be bold enough to touch their signal.

Well, its in the same area as "please wear blinking pink clothes with bunny stickers, if you do that you received +3 initiative (and -2 to your infiltration/disguise)".

It doesn´t make any sense, but hey, it´s risk vs reward.

SYL

[redwulfe]

Not sure how it doesn't make any since. Maybe it doesn't make a lot of since but it does make some.

Ganger numbers one two and three are shooting at my Sam. I am trying to keep from getting shot and kick on my reaction enhances things for me start to seem to move slower as I start to move for cover. I look left then right and make a descission to head for some crates of to the side. I get to the cover but not as fast as I would like my time searching and making the descision cost me some of my reaction time. With my wireless on the enhances can take samples for other nodes in the area and when the Ganges start shooting I will see the fruit of that dat appear in my vision as an arrow pointing saying optimal cover here or some such.

This would be other examples but I think it doesn't make a lot of since, but I understand the basic resoning behind the rule. All equipment now can work like a mini tac-net giving you a bonus, if you care to open them up to the wireless world around you. You can't get the bonus if it is a wired system as they won't be drawing info for outside nodes and thereby getting more info for there limited fuzzy logic to work out the details.

Also no system will ever be a perfect simulation of real life and who am I to say what the technology of 2075 will be able to do.

[Wakshaani]

It can also be looked at as a possible edge that comes with a risk. Is it worth the bonus to turn it on? Can you get the job done without the bonus? Stone-cold pros may shrug at the things kids do, or may button up their defenses with IC and encryption while they dare someone to be bold enough to touch their signal.

"Everything has a price."

A core concept going into SR5 is that power comes with a price. If you want an edge, you pay for it... people get melon ballers taken to their eyes to get steel orbs in their place, grow new organs in vats so they can be tweaked, so on and so forth.

Wireless is one of those options. By networking your gear, sharing data with several processors, having interactions, you can make your stuff gestalt and get better... but also more vulnerable. Are the bonuses that you get from doing so worth the risk that a decker or technomancer could tie you into a knot?

That's for you to decide.

Push the limit or play it safe?

You have a choice.

[Shinobi Killfist]

"Everything has a price."

A core concept going into SR5 is that power comes with a price. If you want an edge, you pay for it... people get melon ballers taken to their eyes to get steel orbs in their place, grow new organs in vats so they can be tweaked, so on and so forth.

Wireless is one of those options. By networking your gear, sharing data with several processors, having interactions, you can make your stuff gestalt and get better... but also more vulnerable. Are the bonuses that you get from doing so worth the risk that a decker or technomancer could tie you into a knot?

That's for you to decide.

Push the limit or play it safe?

You have a choice.

I think everyone understands the rule intent, but it is forced in an idiotic fashion. Take the reaction enhancer, wired example. You have 2 pieces of cyber going do the same place, why to they need to broadcast out to another location to meet up again and work together. Rules reason, sure we get it risk vs reward, in game um I got nothing, even if it required a comlink to process as RHat suggested every street sam would have a implanted comlink that tookinformation in and pushed it out through DNI but did not broadcast wirelessly. Risk vs reward is awesome, but if the risk feels forced it doesn't work.

[Sengir]

I don't have the book, so I can't say for certain, but it might be the case that due to the changes in Matrix protocols it is no longer possible to create those small, isolated networks without something major at its core.

Cyberware DNI and interconnectivity has nothing to do with Matrix protocols. Thus even forcing Wires and Reaction Enhancers to be connected to the PAN would be borderline. Forcing them to connect to the full worldwide Matrix in order to cooperate locally is just off the scales. Sounds like much-ridiculed the examples in the original blog post were indeed the best examples of that "mechanic" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[BishopMcQ]

I'm stripping game mechanics until the big release date.

Sample Hacking Program: You can perform a single Matrix action on two targets with this program.
Sample Complex Form: You push Resonance commands into a target, forcing it to perform a Matrix action.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Cyberware DNI and interconnectivity has nothing to do with Matrix protocols. Thus even forcing Wires and Reaction Enhancers to be connected to the PAN would be borderline. Forcing them to connect to the full worldwide Matrix in order to cooperate locally is just off the scales. Sounds like much-ridiculed the examples in the original blog post were indeed the best examples of that "mechanic" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I kind of get the feeling they chanted risk vs reward mantra or deckers need to combat deck so often it blinded them to what they were saying was required actually meant in game. And yes 2 DNI items needing to broadcast out connect to the matric in order to combine then breoacast back for better reflexes is kind of off the scale.

[Not of this Worl...]

Matrix connecting of two pieces of cyberware in your body will be immediately home-ruled out for me.

Now there was talk of traditions beign more significant for SR5. Can anyone provide an example? Does it make any meaningful difference if you're a Mage or Shaman for instance?

[BishopMcQ]

Or you know, they recognize the problem and hold out a carrot and a stick for people who are reckless.

"You can defend your gear with a good commlink and a personal area network (see PANs and WANs, p. 233). Even better, defending against threats from the Matrix is part of your team hacker’s job. If she’s not available, you might occasionally want to turn wireless off."

[Shinobi Killfist]

Or you know, they recognize the problem and hold out a carrot and a stick for people who are reckless.

"You can defend your gear with a good commlink and a personal area network (see PANs and WANs, p. 233). Even better, defending against threats from the Matrix is part of your team hacker’s job. If she’s not available, you might occasionally want to turn wireless off."

Yes, yes carrot, stick, risk, reward we get the game mechanic. If the game mechanic in SR was when you turn on your wireless you get this benefit but there is a 1 in 6 chance a cow will suddenly drop on you from orbit would anyone agree to it? 2 DNI items needing to connect to the matrix in order to connect in your body makes about as much sense as cows suddenly dropping on you from orbit. Risk vs reward is fine, but the risk has to make contextual sense in the world and forced matrix activity doesn't really make sense in the examples we have been given. A quick example they could easily have said due to sota wired now is considered to be moving at the speeds of the old wired+reaction enhancers. The new reaction enhancers are much faster and when combined with wired cause stress on the metahuman body and after they are deactivated the player must resist X stun damage. It is a risk, it gives a reward and it makes at least a lick of sense in the world. But instead the matrix connection was slapped on as the universal stick and it does not fit many examples.

[apple]

I will see the fruit of that dat appear in my vision as an arrow pointing saying optimal cover here or some such.

It´s called TacNet, not Reaction Enhancer.

That´s the funny part : "normal" runner/agents/hit squads/mob squads/black ops/ whatever teams were already online with radio communition, tacnets, drones (and sometimes wifi interfaces because of ingame regulations of companies), so the basic premise of "people were not online in SR4 therefore we force to to be online to get item boni" was not really neccessary.

The simple, elegant and (oh boy, the evil word) realistic solution inside the game world would have been to make radio communication, drones and tacnets part of the basic book and like smartlink, medkit or a fake SIN a normal part of every runner. Problem solved.

SYL

[apple]

You have a choice.

But I don´t have a choice. If I would have a choice, I would simply use DNI, cable or skinlink to "network my gear" as you described it" (and use a tacnet for online boni). However this is not possible because it goes against JHs aim of "everything gets hacked, even it does not make any sense, because radio communition, drones and tacnets are not enough"

If you really wants acceptable risk vs reward options because it would be an idea to start with risks appropriate to the choise in question. In that case cyberware ... not working, problems with the DNI, pain, implant rejection, medical drug abuse.

SYL

[Charon]

Bingo. It sounds like this is just a gameplay justification for an augmented character holding the Idiot Ball. I can see having an internal, hardwired network connecting all your cyberware together; that not only makes sense, it's actually a good idea. Having your 'ware shouting to each other in the radio band? That's breathtakingly dumb.

We'll have to see. I remember reading that the bonus depends on the advantage that Wifi could provide and what the justification for the advantage is.

For example, if I get perception related bonuses because every cybereyes/goggles of each members of the party are linked and sharing information, that makes a lot of sense. If something makes no sense, I'll houserule, but I'll give it a chance.

[apple]

Again, what you describe is a TacNet ...

SYL

[Daedelus]

We are all talking about a RPG here. There are a lot of things that are unrealistic and require imagination and justification to seem real. Magic in and of itself breaks the realism more completely than cyberware using a existing networking technology rather than coming up with their own. Why reinvent the wheel. Why would any law abiding citizen worry about hackers shutting down his cybereyes any more than he would his comlink?

[Sengir]

Yes, yes carrot, stick, risk, reward we get the game mechanic.

"Mechanic" implies a certain order and consistency. Tacking random effects onto equipment with no regard for logic, just to enable some weird idea that was already shot down the last time it came up, does not deserve that moniker.

If the game mechanic in SR was when you turn on your wireless you get this benefit but there is a 1 in 6 chance a cow will suddenly drop on you from orbit would anyone agree to it

Don't give them any ideas...

[Sengir]

Why reinvent the wheel.

Uh huh, so you are arguing FOR a change to something that has been around 20+ in-universe years by asking "why reinvent the wheel"...


Only good thing is that it seems extremely easy to ignore this madness

[Daedelus]

Well I for one am happy that an incentive to make deckers combat viable has been introduced. If I have to stretch my imagination a little to justify it then I'm all for it. It is no more work for my imagination than shapeshifting or astral beings, or any other magical concept and it makes the game better.

[tasti man LH]

We'll see how they implement the rest.

Otherwise, I kind of like the idea about deckers being able to pull of the shit that can be done in Watch_Dogs.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not sure how it doesn't make any since. Maybe it doesn't make a lot of since but it does make some.

Ganger numbers one two and three are shooting at my Sam. I am trying to keep from getting shot and kick on my reaction enhances things for me start to seem to move slower as I start to move for cover. I look left then right and make a descission to head for some crates of to the side. I get to the cover but not as fast as I would like my time searching and making the descision cost me some of my reaction time. With my wireless on the enhances can take samples for other nodes in the area and when the Ganges start shooting I will see the fruit of that dat appear in my vision as an arrow pointing saying optimal cover here or some such.

This would be other examples but I think it doesn't make a lot of since, but I understand the basic resoning behind the rule. All equipment now can work like a mini tac-net giving you a bonus, if you care to open them up to the wireless world around you. You can't get the bonus if it is a wired system as they won't be drawing info for outside nodes and thereby getting more info for there limited fuzzy logic to work out the details.

Also no system will ever be a perfect simulation of real life and who am I to say what the technology of 2075 will be able to do.

I call BS... *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well I for one am happy that an incentive to make deckers combat viable has been introduced. If I have to stretch my imagination a little to justify it then I'm all for it. It is no more work for my imagination than shapeshifting or astral beings, or any other magical concept and it makes the game better.

Hackers were always combat viable in SR4A. I played one for MANY years. *shrug*

[ShadowDragon8685]

We are all talking about a RPG here. There are a lot of things that are unrealistic and require imagination and justification to seem real. Magic in and of itself breaks the realism more completely than cyberware using a existing networking technology rather than coming up with their own. Why reinvent the wheel. Why would any law abiding citizen worry about hackers shutting down his cybereyes any more than he would his comlink?

Magic gets an exception because it is quite literally magic. When it's applied, it's allowed to violate all the physical laws, but even so, it does so in a manner consistent with itself.


As for why law abiding citizens should worry about hackers shutting down their cybereyes, I dunno, maybe it's because every night you get newsfeed updates about what those crazy, whacky criminals are up to next? The corps keep the people of the world rightly in fear of the insane things those crazy crims are capable of, specifically to make them clamor for more protection and be willing to surrender ever more freedoms and liberties and privacies to them.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Magic gets an exception because it is quite literally magic. When it's applied, it's allowed to violate all the physical laws, but even so, it does so in a manner consistent with itself.


As for why law abiding citizens should worry about hackers shutting down their cybereyes, I dunno, maybe it's because every night you get newsfeed updates about what those crazy, whacky criminals are up to next? The corps keep the people of the world rightly in fear of the insane things those crazy crims are capable of, specifically to make them clamor for more protection and be willing to surrender ever more freedoms and liberties and privacies to them.

And then sell them upgraded firewall software with 24/7 tech-support.

Really, it's a win-win. Why wouldn't they enable wireless on EVERYTHING with a racket like that?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[apple]

Well I for one am happy that an incentive to make deckers combat viable has been introduced.

They were already useful in combat (and the change to make them even more useful was not that your cyberware is now online in the cloud, but the removal of extended tests). It´s not that drones, radio communication or tacnets are something that special in SR ... again, the argument is invalid (except only if your group does not use radio communication, drones, commlinks or tacnet - then again your group will have no real incentive to use deckers in combat as well).

SYL

[apple]

Otherwise, I kind of like the idea about deckers being able to pull of the shit that can be done in Watch_Dogs.

They can already do that since SR3/virtual realities ... then again what you want is not a wireless reaction enhancer, but the removal of extended tests for hacking (which is a good change in SR5).

SYL

[Smirnov]

My question is not about the rules, but about the book. Who are the authors ans the artists of the rulebook?

[apple]

One of the artists should be Raben-AAS. He has done lots of stuff for the German books.

http://rabenwelten.wordpress.com/
http://raben-aas.deviantart.com/

IMHO one of the best artists SR ever had.

SYL

[Patrick Goodman]

This, at least, shouldn't get me in trouble.

Writing: Jennifer Brozek, Raymond Croteau, Mark Dynna, Patrick Goodman, Jason M. Hardy, Robyn “Rat” King, Adam Large, Devon Oratz, Aaron Pavao, Steven “Bull” Ratkovich, Scott Schletz, Malik Toms, Michael Wich, Thomas Willoughby, Russell Zimmerman

Cover Art: Michael Komarck

Interior Art: Gordon Bennetto, Joel Biske, Echo Chernik, Victor Corbella, Brent Evans, Phillip Hilliker, David Hovey, David Kegg, Ian King, Igor Kieryluk, Jeff Laubenstein, Melanie Maier, Daniel Masso, Jeremy McHugh, Raven Mimura, Mark Molnar, Victor Manuel Leza Moreno, Lee Moyer, Alessandra Pisano, Mark Poole, Tony Shasteen, Klaus Scherwinski, Andreas “AAS” Schroth, Christophe Swal, Eric Williams, John Zeleznik

[Smirnov]

Thanks a million!

[Tanegar]

We are all talking about a RPG here. There are a lot of things that are unrealistic and require imagination and justification to seem real. Magic in and of itself breaks the realism more completely than cyberware using a existing networking technology rather than coming up with their own. Why reinvent the wheel. Why would any law abiding citizen worry about hackers shutting down his cybereyes any more than he would his comlink?

The phrase you're looking for is "internal logic," not "realism." Magic does not break the internal logic of the game; always-online cyberware does.

[RHat]

Cyberware DNI and interconnectivity has nothing to do with Matrix protocols. Thus even forcing Wires and Reaction Enhancers to be connected to the PAN would be borderline. Forcing them to connect to the full worldwide Matrix in order to cooperate locally is just off the scales. Sounds like much-ridiculed the examples in the original blog post were indeed the best examples of that "mechanic" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If DNI alone is sufficient for that purpose, DNI is also a possible hacking channel. Is that something you want to argue in favour of? DNI either can or cannot be used for the exchange of data and commands between nodes - you cannot have it both ways. At least if DNI is considered insufficient, you actually have the option of complete isolation.

[KarmaInferno]

I still can't figure out why a chemical seal activates faster when it's Matrix connected.




-k

[Epicedion]

If DNI alone is sufficient for that purpose, DNI is also a possible hacking channel. Is that something you want to argue in favour of? DNI either can or cannot be used for the exchange of data and commands between nodes - you cannot have it both ways. At least if DNI is considered insufficient, you actually have the option of complete isolation.

What's this whole mess about 'ware being online/not-online for various reasons? Is there now some logical reason that anyone would ever hook up their internal cyberware to their PAN? Likewise, is there some logical reason that anyone wouldn't just go buy some 10 year old deltaware out of the bargain bin to keep their stuff nonbroadcasting?

I could understand if there's some new development in wireless hacking that lets the very creative/skilled/rich hacker infiltrate traditionally offline gear (attacking the DNI directly by amplifying the electrical signals and rerouting them with some spooky action at a distance?), forcing most shady people to wire things into their PAN to get the benefit of protective software that isolated systems wouldn't have (eg, if hackers can infiltrate your ware at the DNI level, you have to hook things up to your anti-hacker suite in your commlink or else you've got nothing protecting you).

Or something. What's the deal?

[Tanegar]

If DNI alone is sufficient for that purpose, DNI is also a possible hacking channel. Is that something you want to argue in favour of? DNI either can or cannot be used for the exchange of data and commands between nodes - you cannot have it both ways. At least if DNI is considered insufficient, you actually have the option of complete isolation.

Lolwut? Of course DNI is a possible hacking channel - but it doesn't matter, because hackers can't get to it. That's what DNI means: Direct Neural Interface. It's hardwired - emphasis on wired - into your brain. There is no reason whatsoever why a DNI module should ever have wireless capability.

[RHat]

Lolwut? Of course DNI is a possible hacking channel - but it doesn't matter, because hackers can't get to it. That's what DNI means: Direct Neural Interface. It's hardwired - emphasis on wired - into your brain. There is no reason whatsoever why a DNI module should ever have wireless capability.

Best never don a pair of trodes, then.

If DNI is a viable hacking channel, and you can get from a wireless device to a DNI'd device in some way, you can hack through the DNI, period.

And no, that's not a "lolwut", the subject has come up for debate before.

What's this whole mess about 'ware being online/not-online for various reasons? Is there now some logical reason that anyone would ever hook up their internal cyberware to their PAN? Likewise, is there some logical reason that anyone wouldn't just go buy some 10 year old deltaware out of the bargain bin to keep their stuff nonbroadcasting?

I could understand if there's some new development in wireless hacking that lets the very creative/skilled/rich hacker infiltrate traditionally offline gear (attacking the DNI directly by amplifying the electrical signals and rerouting them with some spooky action at a distance?), forcing most shady people to wire things into their PAN to get the benefit of protective software that isolated systems wouldn't have (eg, if hackers can infiltrate your ware at the DNI level, you have to hook things up to your anti-hacker suite in your commlink or else you've got nothing protecting you).

Or something. What's the deal?

That's the point - we don't know, without the book in front of us, if there is now a reason for that. People are acting as if an in-game reason could not possibly exist, which simply isn't true.

And as for 10-year old bargain bin stuff - not gonna be deltaware, certainly, and SR4 did have mechanics in a couple supplements for gear old enough that it didn't work with everything else anymore. Whatever extra benefit connectivity offers may not be possible on gear not working on the new protocols, because that does sound exactly like something the corps would do.

The intent, in part, does appear for there to be a reason why you might want to have connectivity on your internal ware by having that provide benefits, especially in terms of external connectivity. Now, something like Wired Reflexes might not have a substantial bonus, while something like Skillwires just might - because the latter has a lot more to gain from external connectivity.

[Aaron]

I still can't figure out why a chemical seal activates faster when it's Matrix connected.

Faster, or with less attention from the user?

[Epicedion]

Faster, or with less attention from the user?

That's getting into some really thin justification. Presumably if the technology exists to make a piece of gear that hooks into a tiny multipurpose device that tells it when to activate, the technology exists such that you could install a tinier single-purpose device into the gear itself to do the same thing and generally bypass the issues related to networking the two. Since hacking is a core element of the game, it's inconceivable that any knuckleheads out there wouldn't opt for this.

[RHat]

I think the logic he's going for is as follows:

P1: DNI is the method of activation involving the least action from the user.
P2: DNI access the a chem seal mandates that the chemseal be a part of your PAN.
C: Thus, having the chem seal be connected means that you can activate it and still easily be able to do other things.

Notably, if I'm reading the preview properly, a Free Action can be taken in an Action Phase where you would otherwise have no actions - for example, if you get 2 passes and a gas attack occurs in the third, if you have a connected chem seal you can still activate it. It would appear to be the difference between doing it with a thought or doing it with a physical action.

[apple]

we don't know, without the book in front of us, if there is now a reason for that. People are acting as if an in-game reason could not possibly exist, which simply isn't true.

But we know it already ... it was explained by JH in a blog post, both the intention and the implementation. Everything must be connected in order to be able to be hacked and since player characters does not want to be hacked and went offline (disabling wireless except for a very secure commlink and using cable/skinlink for the rest of the PAN, which defeats the purpose of wifi in the first place) they made everything online if they want to have the boni (ex chem seal, vision enhancement, wired reflexes + reaction enhancer).

@Aaron
Both ... it simply does not make sense. Because someone could of course argue, that there is DNI, cable and/or skinlink. Which apparently is sooooo much slower (when it comes to a data transmission range of ... 2 meters) that there is a notable difference in response time. Which is in the same area as "wear blinking pink clothes for a -3 to dodge/infiltration and a +3 for initiative".

SYL

[redwulfe]

What I find odd about this conversation is that people are trying to justify technology that is 60 years beyond us. 60 years in the past we would have had a hard time justifying today's technology in some regards. Second off this is a game where magic and dragons exist it isn't our world so why do we try and justify it. It already doesn't make since cause elves don't exist. So maybe corps and such have decided to put low powered tack nets in there reaction enhancer products and maybe from that they have chem seals with early detection and asist the user in sealing up faster. To be honest to me it is a very small problem, in a game I love to play. Every edition of any game has had stuff that made no since, this one is no different.

It becomes really hard to come on to the forums to talk to others about a game you enjoy, when most post are cynical arguments against that game. With that I would like to take back this thread to its original purpose to ask questions about 5th.

1. Could someone tell me if they removed the armor penalty from called shots?
2. Are the QuickStart hacking rules close to the book and if not, can someone elaborate on the differences?

[Sengir]

If DNI alone is sufficient for that purpose, DNI is also a possible hacking channel.

And why would that be? Because the signals passing through your neural system (which is all that DNI generates) are the same as Matrix signals and hackable? I don't think you would like the implications of that...

[Sengir]

What I find odd about this conversation is that people are trying to justify technology that is 60 years beyond us. 60 years in the past we would have had a hard time justifying today's technology in some regards. Second off this is a game where magic and dragons exist it isn't our world so why do we try and justify it.

What I find odd is that these two points get regurgitated no matter how often they have been shot down.

[ShadowDragon8685]

What I find odd about this conversation is that people are trying to justify technology that is 60 years beyond us. 60 years in the past we would have had a hard time justifying today's technology in some regards.

Because cause and effect are violated by this nonsense, that's why.

Sixty years ago, if you had told someone that he would be able to place a telephone call from inside a moving vehicle, he would have said that was ridiculous, but then if you told him to just posit the fact that the nation becomes covered in radio repeaters that enable a small handheld device to reach anyone, he would likely have agreed it was possible. If you then told him it was possible for that same device to use its radio transmitter to open your garage door, or to use an infra-red light beam to control your television, he would likely say it seems far-fetched, but not technically impossible. (Also, if you were talking to the right person, you probably just sped up the invention of cellular telephones by thirty years.)

If you had told that same man that by choosing to use those features, however, you opened yourself up to the risk that malicious people would then be able to use your phone to make your car's tires deflate, he'd call bullshit, and at the very least demand to know why your car's tires are radio-controlled. Are you seeing the problem here?!

It does not make any kind of sense, it does not follow any kind of plausible cause-and-effect. There is literally no reason for Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers to be incompatable, unless you open yourself up to a hostile hacker shutting them off by connecting them to the Matrix. Why? What possible use do those things have for Matrix input?

None. Jack shit. Their entire goal in life is to speed up the rate at which signals inside your body travel from your brain to your extremities and the speed at which your brain processes the input coming from your senses, allowing you to react quicker. Would they benefit from being connected to each other, certainly, but they don't need to be exposed to the wireless world for that to happen. They can be connected internally, either through running some ultrafine superconductors (something that evidently exists in Shadowrun, whose existence I can accept on the face of it,) from your wired reflexes to your reaction enhancers, or by using the skinlink electrical field that we've already established has sufficient bandwidth for full DNI control over your smartgun.

Second off this is a game where magic and dragons exist it isn't our world so why do we try and justify it. It already doesn't make since cause elves don't exist.

Oh no, you did not just go there.

Just because something explicitly violates the laws of physics doesn't mean everything does. "Magic" is a great excuse - it's literally magic. The laws of physics as we understand them need not apply - but the laws of magic, which are predefined and only wiggle around slightly with each new iteration of the setting, do apply to magic. For instance, Magic cannot conjure physical mass from nothing, it cannot enable a physical object to teleport, it cannot allow one to travel through time - these are set precepts that everyone, from the humblest Magic 1 hedge wizard to the mightiest Great Dragon and Immortal Elf must abide by. And nothing in the magic rules changes how computer science works. Magic and electronics explicitly don't get along well. If I could waggle my fingers and chant some mumbo-jumbo and chuck a fireball in real life, that wouldn't mean that the entire nature of telecommunications just changed.

You don't get to play the "Magic exists so shut up" card, not in Shadowrun, not when there isn't an explicitly magical phenomena at work.

So maybe corps and such have decided to put low powered tack nets in there reaction enhancer products and maybe from that they have chem seals with early detection and asist the user in sealing up faster. To be honest to me it is a very small problem, in a game I love to play. Every edition of any game has had stuff that made no since, this one is no different.

It's one thing to have rules oversights create situations that makes no sense, it's quite another to do something absolutely made of 100% bullshittium to incentivize people to open themselves up to Matrix attacks in ways that do not make sense, just because they've been telling hackers for an edition that they can hack people's cyberlimbs but literally nobody in the history of ever saw any reason to enable wireless on their augs.

This is very much in the realm of "accept a -3 penalty to infiltration/stealth/disguise for wearing a bright pink glowing and blinking outfit, get +3 initiative." It's the kind of straight-up MMORPG balance "logic" that we do not want in our table-top RPGs.

Hacking is not usually a combat skill. If the hacker wants to hack in combat, he picks up a gun and shoots someone. Or maybe, situation permitting, he hacks the other guys' drones and auto-turrets. If he's really desperate, he can try hacking the lights and environmental controls to impose a penalty on them. But he shouldn't get to hack their cyberlimbs, because what fucking moron would leave his cyberlimbs open to wireless attack?! No moron, that's who. Your cyberlimbs have no business being connected to the wireless Matrix, they perform no Matrix function, there is no reasonable, consistent explanation for why anyone who isn't a complete idiot would leave his cyberlimbs open to wireless attack! They perform a function, that being to manipulate objects, most likely better than your original meat-and-blood arm did. Nothing in their operation or job requirements necessitates wireless connectivity.

Neither does your chemsuit - and don't give me any bullshit about it sealing up based on what a remote sensor told it. The only way that makes sense is if you have the foresight to deploy sensors in advance, and if you're that reasonably worried about chemical attack, you don't leave the question up to chance, you just seal up from the get-go. If the sensor is on the suit itself, then there is literally no need for wireless connectivity, because the sensor can be hard-lined to the suit. And if there is no sensor, but it's all about you sending the DNI command to seal up, then there is literally no reason again, because it can either be skin-linked, or even hardlined into your datajack.

It becomes really hard to come on to the forums to talk to others about a game you enjoy, when most post are cynical arguments against that game. With that I would like to take back this thread to its original purpose to ask questions about 5th.

Welcome to Dumpshock, we're a bunch of cynical, analytical bastards who demand that our games follow some kind of consistency. Hope you enjoy your stay, and maybe, through osmosis, will pick up enough critical thinking to say for yourself "Hang on, that does not make sense!"

[apple]

So maybe corps and such have decided to put low powered tack nets in there reaction enhancer products and maybe from that they have chem seals with early detection and asist the user in sealing up faster.

1) Please answer the question why the early detection system cannot use cable, DNI or skinlink to transmit the information. Or do you mean that there are external sensors, which can only be accessed by wifi to get their information? If yes, do you imply that I loose my online chem seal bonus if there are no such sensors, despite being online?
2) Please answer the question why I have to buy a reaction enhancer cyberware and not a simple tacnet programmm for my commlink to get the boni?
3) Do you imply that if I buy I high powered tacnet, I would not have to buy a reaction enhancer and still get +3 to my reaction attribute?
4) Please wear blinking pink clothes for +3 to initiative and -3 to dodge/infiltration. Make sense? No? Well, it´s magic.

As it was explained above: it´s called internal logic. If your attempts to explain something simply does not hold up to the next question or lead to a whole new area of questions, effects and problems, then perhaps your attempt to explain something is not very good.

SYL

[Patrick Goodman]

*pulls out a tape measure and walks around, taking notes*

They're all the same length, boys. Put 'em back in your pants, please.

[Shemhazai]

Would they benefit from being connected to each other, certainly, but they don't need to be exposed to the wireless world for that to happen. They can be connected internally, either through running some ultrafine superconductors (something that evidently exists in Shadowrun, whose existence I can accept on the face of it,) from your wired reflexes to your reaction enhancers, or by using the skinlink electrical field that we've already established has sufficient bandwidth for full DNI control over your smartgun.

You've done a great analysis, but there's always something that fiction writers can add that we haven't thought of. Isn't it possible that for wired reflexes and reaction enhancers to work together (and stack bonuses), one system would need to communicate to the other real-time location/movement/direction data of various body parts? I don't think a purely wired network can do that. Using wireless enables your systems to know the relative locations and current movement of your hands, feet, elbows, knees, and so forth.

I've thought of other issues, too, but I want to read the book first.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You've done a great analysis, but there's always something that fiction writers can add that we haven't thought of. Isn't it possible that for wired reflexes and reaction enhancers to work together (and stack bonuses), one system would need to communicate to the other real-time location/movement/direction data of various body parts? I don't think a purely wired network can do that. Using wireless enables your systems to know the relative locations and current movement of your hands, feet, elbows, knees, and so forth.

I've thought of other issues, too, but I want to read the book first.

Why would wireless do that? If your body could not do that on its own, you would not be able to walk. *shrug*

[apple]

I don't think a purely wired network can do that.

And why not?

SYL

[binarywraith]

You've done a great analysis, but there's always something that fiction writers can add that we haven't thought of. Isn't it possible that for wired reflexes and reaction enhancers to work together (and stack bonuses), one system would need to communicate to the other real-time location/movement/direction data of various body parts? I don't think a purely wired network can do that. Using wireless enables your systems to know the relative locations and current movement of your hands, feet, elbows, knees, and so forth.

I've thought of other issues, too, but I want to read the book first.

They've done that, explicitly, since Shadowtech at the very least.

Via DNI.

It's the whole basis for how Move By Wire works, for drek's sake.

[Tanegar]

<brilliance>

Please accept this point of Karma in recognition of the foregoing.

[apple]

What´s the online bonus for having an online cyberlimb?
What´s the online bonus for having an online smartlink?
What´s the online bonus for having an online medkit?
What´s the online bonus for having an online skillwire?

SYL

[cryptoknight]

What´s the online bonus for having an online cyberlimb?
What´s the online bonus for having an online smartlink?
What´s the online bonus for having an online medkit?
What´s the online bonus for having an online skillwire?

SYL

What's the online bonus for having an online Katana ?

What's the online bonus for having online sushi?

What's the online bonus for having online water?

[Epicedion]

You've done a great analysis, but there's always something that fiction writers can add that we haven't thought of. Isn't it possible that for wired reflexes and reaction enhancers to work together (and stack bonuses), one system would need to communicate to the other real-time location/movement/direction data of various body parts? I don't think a purely wired network can do that. Using wireless enables your systems to know the relative locations and current movement of your hands, feet, elbows, knees, and so forth.

I've thought of other issues, too, but I want to read the book first.

The issue with that is that older versions of wired reflexes and reaction enhancers didn't need this. Since they keep advancing the timeline, this means that new tech needs to perform as well or better with respect to the old tech, or there needs to be some additional complication that forces technology down the new path and causes everyone to adopt it.

They've apparently taken that 'additional complication' track with the return of Decking -- something happened and now the only viable solution is cyberdecks. I haven't seen an answer for the wired-to-wireless tech question, the in-universe reasoning for shifting the processing burden to the PAN without drastically improving everything's function from the common baseline. What I mean by that is that gear provides some bonus, and for the sake of game balance those bonuses can't drastically change. I'm presuming here that online Wired Reflexes (or however) will be about the bonus you'd expect from being familiar with Wired Reflexes (or however) over the editions, and that the offline version is going to be underpowered in some way, since to flip that and make offline the common baseline and online improved somehow would probably wreck game balance.

This is why earlier I suggested, without knowing anything about the justification behind all this, that hackers could have some new technology which allows them to invade the DNI without needing it to be hooked up to a broadcast node. The protections against this could be to make the technology really dumb (offline) and therefore less effective than gear of yore, or online everything to get the benefit of the anti-hacking suite that protects the rest of your PAN.

I don't know if this is the case. If offline is weak compared to the baseline, and online is at the baseline, then I'd really like to see something like this. Rather than just a drastic shift in the way Shadowrun technology supposedly works (hey, two years ago no one needed this, right?) for no discernable lore reason.

[KarmaInferno]

That's the point - we don't know, without the book in front of us, if there is now a reason for that. People are acting as if an in-game reason could not possibly exist, which simply isn't true.

I do, in fact, have the book in front of me.

Been going through it the past few days. Most wireless boni do not justify their existance in-game.




-k

[Sunshine]

The phrase you're looking for is "internal logic," not "realism." Magic does not break the internal logic of the game; always-online cyberware does.

...because you say so, hmm? Lets try to have this discussion offline, will ya?

I get why and what some are upset about and I think it is everybodies good right to change the game into his or her favorite toy.

If you want to play by the rules and you do not want your character to need online cyberware, don't get any. I still do not know the reasoning behind the wifi/ matrix enabled stuff but I expect it to be something different than "everything has a price". Maybe its some kind of SOTA thing or whatnot. I could speculate for hours (and to some extend I have).

Here are some of my speculations:

If you had told me 15 Years ago that I would have to be always on to play practically a single player pc game I'd have called BS. Why would anybody in their right mind do that? Competition would make fun of them and thank them for the business. Week after week I see how it is MORE complicated to work arround online/ internet/ wifi connection. Why should I expect it is less so in 60+ years when the bord computer of my car is cross referencing my tire pressure with weather information and road conditions to correct for optimal pressure in relation to speed/saftey factoring in other registered cars in my vincinity. Sure I can turn that off, but I'd loose a lot of comfort/security. There is your risk reward example.

I'll try an example with the reaction enhancer/ wired reflexes setup. The metahuman body is a complex system that due to some reasons does not react well to overstress. As to this the testoterol and cortisol levels may not reach certain heights or lows. The factors that need to be processed for a reaction enhancer and a wired reflex system to work in perfect unison (aka grant bonuses) in that specific person without causing spasms, cardiac problems, etc. are far to numerous or changing too fast to be patched into just one database chip. Turn off the online connection (and thus the auxillary processing power) and turn on both and we have a reason for cyberware drain resistance tests.

If in a make believe game you lack the imagination to make believe I'll say you made a choice or you are not trying hard enough. I want to believe.

What´s the online bonus for having an online cyberlimb?
What´s the online bonus for having an online smartlink?
What´s the online bonus for having an online medkit?
What´s the online bonus for having an online skillwire?

SYL


What's the online bonus for having an online Katana ?

What's the online bonus for having online sushi?

What's the online bonus for having online water?

From top to bottom - Doubles as are input device, updates for weapon mods, patches to *whatever kind of program code error thrown on whatever kind of hardwere you migt be using*, nanosecond updates to diagnostic libraries for the autodoc, patches and tweaks on resilence implementation with that particular skillsoft, got nothing right now - why use blades in the future? (ahh, because they are offline!), online sushi - now I can order that from the comfort of my home directly correlated with my NatVat CyberDiet calculator for perfect nutrition choices, water - pollution is rampant - nanosecond uppdates to my chemfilter waterpurification unit (works perfectly with my CyberDiet for a monthly fee of 15Y/ month).
Now make something up for online shoelaces... ..or just don't bother trying if you do not want to, you are after all a free person.

love,
Sunshine

[binarywraith]

This is why earlier I suggested, without knowing anything about the justification behind all this, that hackers could have some new technology which allows them to invade the DNI without needing it to be hooked up to a broadcast node. The protections against this could be to make the technology really dumb (offline) and therefore less effective than gear of yore, or online everything to get the benefit of the anti-hacking suite that protects the rest of your PAN.

I can only speak for myself here, but that right there would be enough to make me burn all bridges with this edition, because it is just plain stupid.

If a hacker can invade DNI without it needing to be online, there's no reason to play anything that isn't magically active, because you can literally be brainhacked. That is a thing that is so wildly stupid that I almost feel like I need to go place bets that someone'll actually print it.

[Epicedion]

If you had told me 15 Years ago that I would have to be always on to play practically a single player pc game I'd have called BS. Why would anybody in their right mind do that? Competition would make fun of them and thank them for the business.

This is pretty much what's happening with the 'always online' single-player games.

I'll try an example with the reaction enhancer/ wired reflexes setup. The metahuman body is a complex system that due to some reasons does not react well to overstress. As to this the testoterol and cortisol levels may not reach certain heights or lows. The factors that need to be processed for a reaction enhancer and a wired reflex system to work in perfect unison (aka grant bonuses) in that specific person without causing spasms, cardiac problems, etc. are far to numerous or changing too fast to be patched into just one database chip. Turn off the online connection (and thus the auxillary processing power) and turn on both and we have a reason for cyberware drain resistance tests.

Except that these things have been working for decades in-game. They've made the explicit choice to continue the existing lore, so they're a little late to the party to write in stuff like this.

From top to bottom - Doubles as are input device, updates for weapon mods, patches to *whatever kind of program code error thrown on whatever kind of hardwere you migt be using*, nanosecond updates to diagnostic libraries for the autodoc, patches and tweaks on resilence implementation with that particular skillsoft, got nothing right now - why use blades in the future? (ahh, because they are offline!), online sushi - now I can order that from the comfort of my home directly correlated with my NatVat CyberDiet calculator for perfect nutrition choices, water - pollution is rampant - nanosecond uppdates to my chemfilter waterpurification unit (works perfectly with my CyberDiet for a monthly fee of 15Y/ month).
Now make something up for online shoelaces... ..or just don't bother trying if you do not want to, you are after all a free person.

Again, the problem is that these are technologies that apparently didn't need this previously. If they want to toss in a major shift in how their technology works, there has to be an accompanying plausible explanation for that shift that answers the question "so why don't we just use the older technology that worked just fine without these penalties?"

[binarywraith]

This is pretty much what's happening with the 'always online' single-player games.

Yeah, note that Sony's spent the last week making Microsoft look like idiots over this very issue, and winning a lot of goodwill from their potential customers in the process.

Again, the problem is that these are technologies that apparently didn't need this previously. If they want to toss in a major shift in how their technology works, there has to be an accompanying plausible explanation for that shift that answers the question "so why don't we just use the older technology that worked just fine without these penalties?"

Hell, there should be in game people running around with the old 'ware still in them. Half or more of the Shadowtalkers got into the business back in the '50's at this point, and most of their 'ware is from that decade.

[apple]

I still do not know the reasoning behind the wifi/ matrix enabled stuff but I expect it to be something different than "everything has a price".

The reason was given by JH in a blog

"Hackers were not useful in combat (because apparently no one uses radio communition, drones or tacnets) so in order to be useful they need something to hack (like items or cyberware). Since everybody (especially the player) however knows, that being online is a potential hacking/detection problem, everybody (especially the players) went offline - which is not acceptable. So to make everything having a price and hackable 8because, you know, hackers cannot do anything in combat) you only get the good goodies if you are online. "

Example given in the blog : your googles with a vision enhancement catches info bits from the air and so you get +3 to perception. But now you are hackable"

That is the official reasoning behind "everything must be online".

My request, that faces can do something in combat (like cursing for killing) was unfortunately ignored.

Maybe its some kind of SOTA thing

No.

The factors that need to be processed for a reaction enhancer and a wired reflex system to work in perfect unison (aka grant bonuses) in that specific person without causing spasms, cardiac problems, etc. are far to numerous or changing too fast to be patched into just one database chip. Turn off the online connection (and thus the auxillary processing power) and turn on both and we have a reason for cyberware drain resistance tests.

So you are implying that the firmware of my cyberware does not run on the cyberware but on an external servers (please check for matrix noise) and it is faster then cable/skinlink/DNI the two thing internally? Why cant I have this external processing power on my skinlinked commlink?

Again: a possible explanation should not lead to new questions or problems.

h. I want to believe.

I want to make sense.

From top to bottom - Doubles as are input device, updates for weapon mods, patches to *whatever kind of program code error thrown on whatever kind of hardwere you migt be using*, nanosecond updates to diagnostic libraries for the autodoc, patches and tweaks on resilence implementation with that particular skillsoft, got nothing right now - why use blades in the future? (ahh, because they are offline!),

None of it makes it necessary or believable that you have to be online in the very moment you want to use the skill or weapon. Pathing etc is usually done before you want to use something. You reload a weapon before combat, not start with an empty magazine.

SYL

[Sengir]

The issue with that is that older versions of wired reflexes and reaction enhancers didn't need this.

Retconns in the details of how something works are nothing new (see the death of Program Carriers) and IMO are acceptable, provided the new details are actually better, or at least does not dumber than before. "The fastest connection between two points is not a straight line but a detour through a worldwide datanet" would _slightly_ fail that test.

[Epicedion]

The reason was given by JH in a blog

"Hackers were not useful in combat (because apparently no one uses radio communition, drones or tacnets) so in order to be useful they need something to hack (like items or cyberware). Since everybody (especially the player) however knows, that being online is a potential hacking/detection problem, everybody (especially the players) went offline - which is not acceptable. So to make everything having a price and hackable 8because, you know, hackers cannot do anything in combat) you only get the good goodies if you are online. "

Example given in the blog : your googles with a vision enhancement catches info bits from the air and so you get +3 to perception. But now you are hackable"

That is the official reasoning behind "everything must be online".

My request, that faces can do something in combat (like cursing for killing) was unfortunately ignored.

I understand there's a metagame reason, and I may even agree with some of it, but I'd like to see that it's not all metagame handwaving.

So you are implying that the firmware of my cyberware does not run on the cyberware but on an external servers (please check for matrix noise) and it is faster then cable/skinlink/DNI the two thing internally? Why cant I have this external processing power on my skinlinked commlink?

Again: a possible explanation should not lead to new questions or problems.

And then what happens to you when you step into a jammed, shielded, or otherwise blacked out area? Does all your gear cease functioning correctly?

"Sorry, dude, there's a rating 8 jamming field here, your eyes and ears no longer work."

[Seerow]

I can only speak for myself here, but that right there would be enough to make me burn all bridges with this edition, because it is just plain stupid.

If a hacker can invade DNI without it needing to be online, there's no reason to play anything that isn't magically active, because you can literally be brainhacked. That is a thing that is so wildly stupid that I almost feel like I need to go place bets that someone'll actually print it.

You can already get literally brainhacked by a mage.

Why is it different when a dedicated tech guy can do it? Especially when you consider that kind of actual technology isn't too far off from existing in real life?