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Daedelus
post Jun 18 2013, 04:30 PM
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I wanted to start this thread because the last one got hijacked.

There was a question on the wording of stacking armor in the preview #4. Can someone tell me if they fixed it.

What defenses can be added to cyberlimbs and other cyberware that can be used to help vs hackers?

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apple
post Jun 18 2013, 04:34 PM
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Currently there is no stacking. You can wear one piece of normal armor (like an armor jacket), additional pieces do not count and you can add multiple pieces of +armor items (like a helmet), which are restricted by ( I think, not quite sure) strength. Most people will run around with an armor jacket (12) and a helm (+3) for a total of 15 + body soak dices.

SYL
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Daedelus
post Jun 18 2013, 04:44 PM
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How do Riggers differ in this edition? Have they become their own specialty again or is the Rigger / Decker combo still a viable build?
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Daedelus
post Jun 18 2013, 04:45 PM
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Can someone give us the stats on the big three of the spell list? Mana Bolt, Mana Ball, and Stun Bolt.

Also Please tell me they brought back Turn to Goo.
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Daedelus
post Jun 18 2013, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (apple @ Jun 18 2013, 09:34 AM) *
Currently there is no stacking. You can wear one piece of normal armor (like an armor jacket), additional pieces do not count and you can add multiple pieces of +armor items (like a helmet), which are restricted by ( I think, not quite sure) strength. Most people will run around with an armor jacket (12) and a helm (+3) for a total of 15 + body soak dices.

SYL


I am a fan of tight rules. It seems that the armor stacking rules in the preview have left a big question mark. They state that "For every 2 full points by which the bonus exceeds the character’s Strength, the character suffers a –1 penalty to Agility and Reaction". However the passage prior to that states "The maximum bonus a character receive from these items is limited to their Strength attribute". This makes +armor items limited to the Strength attribute with no trade off for exceeding it. This may be a proofreading oversight that was fixed in the final printing. Was it?
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DWC
post Jun 18 2013, 04:52 PM
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A few questions spring to mind.

Did Grounding come back as a counterbalance to focus abuse?

Are there any mechanical drawbacks to the use of "sniper rifles" as conventional battle rifles?

Is the Ares Alpha still the "right answer" when it comes to an assault rifle?
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Aaron
post Jun 18 2013, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (Daedelus @ Jun 18 2013, 11:44 AM) *
How do Riggers differ in this edition? Have they become their own specialty again or is the Rigger / Decker combo still a viable build?

Riggers are a thing again. I don't know of any combo that isn't viable except for magician/technomancer.

And now the thread gets hijacked with a discussion of concept combos. =i)
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Seerow
post Jun 18 2013, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (Daedelus @ Jun 18 2013, 04:47 PM) *
I am a fan of tight rules. It seems that the armor stacking rules in the preview have left a big question mark. They state that "For every 2 full points by which the bonus exceeds the character’s Strength, the character suffers a –1 penalty to Agility and Reaction". However the passage prior to that states "The maximum bonus a character receive from these items is limited to their Strength attribute". This makes +armor items limited to the Strength attribute with no trade off for exceeding it. This may be a proofreading oversight that was fixed in the final printing. Was it?



So armor is restricted by strength now? Or there is no restriction as long as you wear only a single piece?


In either scenario, does Body do anything now other than provide base damage resistance dice? If I can have a BOD 1 character with 15+ armor, chances are I will unless there's something else Body provides that hasn't been mentioned.
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Mäx
post Jun 18 2013, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 18 2013, 06:54 PM) *
Riggers are a thing again. I don't know of any combo that isn't viable except for magician/technomancer.

If technomancer/something combos are a viable option right out of gate, then thats pretty cool change.
I quess i have the first character types i have to try and make ones the book is out right there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 18 2013, 06:59 PM) *
So armor is restricted by strength now? Or there is no restriction as long as you wear only a single piece?

No restriction other then you can't wear more then one piece of armor, then armor addition items(like helmets and shields) are limited to your strength
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 18 2013, 06:59 PM) *
In either scenario, does Body do anything now other than provide base damage resistance dice? If I can have a BOD 1 character with 15+ armor, chances are I will unless there's something else Body provides that hasn't been mentioned.

More damage boxes, those are quite usefull.
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BishopMcQ
post Jun 18 2013, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (DWC @ Jun 18 2013, 09:52 AM) *
Are there any mechanical drawbacks to the use of "sniper rifles" as conventional battle rifles?

Yep, similar to SR4A.
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Seerow
post Jun 18 2013, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 18 2013, 05:02 PM) *
More damage boxes, those are quite usefull.


Is it 1 box per body now, or still only 1/2?

Because at 1/2, it might be worth bumping up to 2, to get the 9th box. Spending 2 more points to get 4? Not so much. Reaction or Intuition will be much better because they provide the same level of protection, plus other secondary benefits (going earlier/more often, higher chance of outright avoiding an attack, and some useful linked skills). Even at 1 box per body, it might not be worth picking it up compared to that.

Body was useful in SR4 because 1 body = 3 damage resistance dice, which was a huge deal for survivability, since it provided three times as many resistance dice as the other relevant stats. Take that away? Body may as well not even exist.
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CrystalBlue
post Jun 18 2013, 06:53 PM
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What kind of Skill Groups are we seeing? Same as in 4th, different ones?

And for the skills, are there any major changes to the skills that are there? Ones that have been added or removed?
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Larsine
post Jun 18 2013, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 18 2013, 07:15 PM) *
Is it 1 box per body now, or still only 1/2?

Because at 1/2, it might be worth bumping up to 2, to get the 9th box. Spending 2 more points to get 4? Not so much. Reaction or Intuition will be much better because they provide the same level of protection, plus other secondary benefits (going earlier/more often, higher chance of outright avoiding an attack, and some useful linked skills). Even at 1 box per body, it might not be worth picking it up compared to that.

Body was useful in SR4 because 1 body = 3 damage resistance dice, which was a huge deal for survivability, since it provided three times as many resistance dice as the other relevant stats. Take that away? Body may as well not even exist.

Its 8 + ½ body (rounded up), so Body 1 or 2 gives you 9 damage boxes, you need to up it to 3 to get the extra damage box
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DireRadiant
post Jun 18 2013, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Jun 18 2013, 01:53 PM) *
What kind of Skill Groups are we seeing? Same as in 4th, different ones?

And for the skills, are there any major changes to the skills that are there? Ones that have been added or removed?


For Magic there are Enchanting, Artificing and Ritual Spellcasting which actually do things you would use in game.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 18 2013, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 18 2013, 01:56 PM) *
For Magic there are Enchanting, Artificing and Ritual Spellcasting which actually do things you would use in game.


They did things you would use in-game in SR4A, too. *shrug*
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Daedelus
post Jun 18 2013, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 18 2013, 09:59 AM) *
So armor is restricted by strength now? Or there is no restriction as long as you wear only a single piece?


In either scenario, does Body do anything now other than provide base damage resistance dice? If I can have a BOD 1 character with 15+ armor, chances are I will unless there's something else Body provides that hasn't been mentioned.

the short answer is No it is not limited by Strength. There is now Armor and +armor (helmets, riot shields, etc.) +Armor items are limited by Str.
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Sendaz
post Jun 18 2013, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE (Daedelus @ Jun 18 2013, 11:45 AM) *
Can someone give us the stats on the big three of the spell list? Mana Bolt, Mana Ball, and Stun Bolt.

Also Please tell me they brought back Turn to Goo.


All I have seen so far of the 3 is Manabolt from the quick start.
Type M, Range LOS, Damage P
Damage equal to net hits, resisted by Willpower, no other Damage resistance tests allowed.
Drain F-2


For the Indirect damage types we see Clout.
Type P , Range LOS, Damage S,
Inflicts Stun Damage equal to Magic Rating plus Net hits, Resisted by Reaction & Intuition, remaining damage resisted by Body & Armor,
Drain F-2

the other 3 spells were:

Armor
Provides armor points equal to hits on spellcasting test
Drain F

Heal
Heals Boxes of Physical damage equal to hits on spellcasting test
Drain F-4 ( A bit of a surprise as used to be DV(F) -2 so healing is actually a little easier)

Increase reflexes
Add +1 to Initiative and +1 Initiative Dice for every two hits, max 4 points and 4 dice
Drain F-1 (5 Drain for +3 Init , +3 Init dice is not too bad)
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Seerow
post Jun 18 2013, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE (Daedelus @ Jun 18 2013, 09:04 PM) *
the short answer is No it is not limited by Strength. There is now Armor and +armor (helmets, riot shields, etc.) +Armor items are limited by Str.


So strength indirectly provides armor.

Body is a useless stat that will never go above one for an optimizer.


Good to know these things.
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Mäx
post Jun 18 2013, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 18 2013, 11:49 PM) *
Body is a useless stat that will never go above one for an optimizer.

If im not mistaken Body is part of the physical limits calculation.
Also unless you have specific pieces of gear on, resisting toxins is body only test(unless thats for some reason changed in SR5)
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Seerow
post Jun 18 2013, 10:10 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 18 2013, 09:55 PM) *
If im not mistaken Body is part of the physical limits calculation.


Strength factors in twice, and provides bonus armor and is linked to a few skills. If you care about physical limits, that's where you'll boost, not Body.

QUOTE
Also unless you have specific pieces of gear on, resisting toxins is body only test(unless thats for some reason changed in SR5)


Extremely niche concern, not worth spending attribute points on when every other attribute provides so much better benefits. Especially when the countermeasure is just making sure you have those specific pieces of gear.
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Epicedion
post Jun 18 2013, 10:16 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 18 2013, 04:47 PM) *
All I have seen so far of the 3 is Manabolt from the quick start.
Type M, Range LOS, Damage P
Damage equal to net hits, resisted by Willpower, no other Damage resistance tests allowed.
Drain F-2


This is pretty good. Tossing an F5 Manabolt for 3 drain and probably 3-4 actual damage isn't bad. I imagine most people will be tossing more than 9 Drain resist dice.

I'd like to see what using Edge does to the Direct spells, though. Since Edge nominally removes regular limits, would you then want to cast at Force 1 with Edge and still get all your net hits?

QUOTE
For the Indirect damage types we see Clout.
Type P , Range LOS, Damage S,
Inflicts Stun Damage equal to Magic Rating plus Net hits, Resisted by Reaction & Intuition, remaining damage resisted by Body & Armor,
Drain F-2


Magic rating damage or Force? That is, do you cast at Force 3 for 3 hits but still do Magic +3 damage? Or would it be 3 +3 damage because of the Force? If it's Magic +hits that makes Mages pretty spiffy, since you'd be tossing out 9 damage on a Force 3, Drain 1 spell.

Force is supposed to act as AP as well, right?

QUOTE
the other 3 spells were:

Armor
Provides armor points equal to hits on spellcasting test
Drain F


Bitchin'. Still the question about Edge lifting the cap (cast at Force 1, still get all the net hits?).

QUOTE
Heal
Heals Boxes of Physical damage equal to hits on spellcasting test
Drain F-4 ( A bit of a surprise as used to be DV(F) -2 so healing is actually a little easier)


Much easier to heal, probably a good thing. Target Essence doesn't get in the way? Are sustained-permanent rules still in place?

QUOTE
Increase reflexes
Add +1 to Initiative and +1 Initiative Dice for every two hits, max 4 points and 4 dice
Drain F-1 (5 Drain for +3 Init , +3 Init dice is not too bad)


Not bad. F8 and 8 hits to get the max bonus.
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apple
post Jun 18 2013, 10:32 PM
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Compared to SR3 and 4? Pretty bad. More then ever it seems to be hackerrun 2075.

SYL
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Kiirnodel
post Jun 18 2013, 11:02 PM
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QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 18 2013, 05:49 PM) *
So strength indirectly provides armor.

Body is a useless stat that will never go above one for an optimizer.


Good to know these things.



QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 18 2013, 05:55 PM) *
If im not mistaken Body is part of the physical limits calculation.
Also unless you have specific pieces of gear on, resisting toxins is body only test(unless thats for some reason changed in SR5)


Body also determines how many overflow boxes you have and how long you bleed out before death...
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DWC
post Jun 18 2013, 11:11 PM
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Did the ghoul virus get changed into a form that no longer requires GM fiat to avoid ending all of humanity?
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 19 2013, 01:05 AM
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QUOTE (DWC @ Jun 18 2013, 06:11 PM) *
Did the ghoul virus get changed into a form that no longer requires GM fiat to avoid ending all of humanity?

Not in the core, but it's being worked on.
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apple
post Jun 19 2013, 01:18 AM
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Do you mean that

a) the ghoul virus is unchanged from SR4A und such we are still payling resident run with a ghoul hyperinfection (and it will be changed in an errata document)?

or

b) there is no rules for ghul infection and they will come later, so only fluff is in the basic book?

SYL
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 19 2013, 01:39 AM
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Option B.
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tasti man LH
post Jun 19 2013, 01:58 AM
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Pretty darn sure Infected aren't going to be in the core book...

Also, put my name up there on wondering what are the differences between magic traditions.
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Wired_SR_AEGIS
post Jun 19 2013, 03:13 AM
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What are the skill level caps in Character Generation?

It looks like Skill Groups can be raised above 5 out the gate? Is the old 'one skill at 6 or two skills at 5' in effect, with an extension offered to skill-groups?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 19 2013, 03:20 AM
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Skill cap at chargen is 6 (7 with Aptitude). Can go up to 12 (13 with Aptitude).
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Not of this Worl...
post Jun 19 2013, 03:49 AM
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QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Jun 18 2013, 06:58 PM) *
Also, put my name up there on wondering what are the differences between magic traditions.


I wonder how many times that questioned can be asked before somebody who bought the rule book actually finds it worth answering?

Please?
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BishopMcQ
post Jun 19 2013, 03:56 AM
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Not of this world--Akin to SR4. Hermetic and Shamanic are detailed as always
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tasti man LH
post Jun 19 2013, 03:58 AM
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...but no actual in-game mechanics to reflect the differences?

Outside of different Drain Attributes and different spirit loadouts?
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Wired_SR_AEGIS
post Jun 19 2013, 04:16 AM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jun 19 2013, 04:20 AM) *
Skill cap at chargen is 6 (7 with Aptitude). Can go up to 12 (13 with Aptitude).


Thank you, sir. Just to be clear, a character may have as many skills at 6 out the gate as their little heart desires?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
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Sendaz
post Jun 19 2013, 07:27 AM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jun 18 2013, 06:16 PM) *
This is pretty good. Tossing an F5 Manabolt for 3 drain and probably 3-4 actual damage isn't bad. I imagine most people will be tossing more than 9 Drain resist dice.

I'd like to see what using Edge does to the Direct spells, though. Since Edge nominally removes regular limits, would you then want to cast at Force 1 with Edge and still get all your net hits?


Well you can 'Push the Limit' (pg 56 from the preview peek) and get your Edge rating added to the dice pool AND have the Rule of 6 in play, so any 6 rolled is a hit plus you reroll to try for another. If called before the roll all the dice get the RO6 while if done after its just Edge dice from Rating. This can throw a real wild card as you might just get a few extra hits or if the dice roll hot it could be devastating as using edge this way does remove any limit.

Visibility modifiers like environment and cover look like they still can affect dice pools even for direct mana spells. Which is kind of silly in some ways, but that is a debate for another day.

QUOTE
Magic rating damage or Force? That is, do you cast at Force 3 for 3 hits but still do Magic +3 damage? Or would it be 3 +3 damage because of the Force? If it's Magic +hits that makes Mages pretty spiffy, since you'd be tossing out 9 damage on a Force 3, Drain 1 spell.

Force is supposed to act as AP as well, right?
The quickstart stated Magic rating plus net hits. The Force chosen for the casting acts as a Limit on the number of net hits you get to keep at the end, so throwing a force 1 spell may not always be the best choice as you wont really be able to beef it up with hits (limit one net hit for 1 Force), but you will still have the minimum of Magic rating plus the 1 net hit for damage at least. Unless of course you do burn an edge and bypass the limit, but if your going to use edge would you waste it on a force 1? Depends on situation I guess. Nothing in the quickstart about Force being AP, but I would imagine it should remain in place or the indirects take a major hit, especially with the increased armor values.

I think they went with the Magic plus Net hits for damage so as to put some curb on Overcasting. For example if your Magic 5 and you decide to cut loose by going Force 10 (double your magic max) then your base damage is still Magic rating but the limit on net hits goes up. And of course more should get through on the indirect if the Force = AP still applies anyway.

So get your initiation on as early as possible and work that Magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)



QUOTE
Bitchin'. Still the question about Edge lifting the cap (cast at Force 1, still get all the net hits?).
Looks like it.



QUOTE
Much easier to heal, probably a good thing. Target Essence doesn't get in the way? Are sustained-permanent rules still in place?
It didn't say anything specific to target's essence, but again it was the quickstart so they may have skipped over for brevity. Can't see them removing the essence reduction as it would spoil the flavour, but will have to see. Duration was Permanent so still has to be sustained for a time to 'lock' it in, but no specifics as to the final time, so don't know if it is still x2 Force or not in combat turns.



QUOTE
Not bad. F8 and 8 hits to get the max bonus.
Yep, expect sustaining foci to be in high demand.
If the costs remain the same, 16 Karma should cover the bonding costs for that Force 8 Sustaining Foci.
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Critias
post Jun 19 2013, 08:36 AM
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QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jun 18 2013, 10:16 PM) *
Just to be clear, a character may have as many skills at 6 out the gate as their little heart desires?

And points values allow, yup. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Jareth Valar
post Jun 19 2013, 08:45 AM
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My question for what's in the book; Is there still a page(s) describing what each skill level represents? Like 1 rank is Novice, 3 is base line professional, etc.
This has always been one of my most used pages when creating NPC's and am VERY curious how the descriptions have changed with the increase to maximum skill level.

Possible to even post it up? Not like it's actual in game mechanics or anything? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)
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post Jun 19 2013, 09:22 AM
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never mind
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 19 2013, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE (Jareth Valar @ Jun 19 2013, 03:45 AM) *
My question for what's in the book; Is there still a page(s) describing what each skill level represents? Like 1 rank is Novice, 3 is base line professional, etc.

Yes, there is.
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apple
post Jun 19 2013, 11:55 AM
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so, how is rank 1 to 12 described? Simply doubled everything (1, 2, 3 etc become 1-2, 3-4 etc)?
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Larsine
post Jun 19 2013, 12:54 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 18 2013, 11:47 PM) *
For the Indirect damage types we see Clout.
Type P , Range LOS, Damage S,
Inflicts Stun Damage equal to Magic Rating plus Net hits, Resisted by Reaction & Intuition, remaining damage resisted by Body & Armor,
Drain F-2

Damage should be Force plus net hits.

QUOTE
Armor
Provides armor points equal to hits on spellcasting test
Drain F

Also gives you a glowing field of magical energy.

QUOTE
Heal
Heals Boxes of Physical damage equal to hits on spellcasting test
Drain F-4 ( A bit of a surprise as used to be DV(F) -2 so healing is actually a little easier)

Its an Essence spell, so it's more difficult to cast against low-essence characters. Has to be sustainde to be permanent. Each hit used to decrease the sustaining time saves 1 combat turn.
QUOTE
Increase reflexes
Add +1 to Initiative and +1 Initiative Dice for every two hits, max 4 points and 4 dice
Drain F-1 (5 Drain for +3 Init , +3 Init dice is not too bad)

Each hits gives +1 Initiative, each 2 hits gives +1 Initiative die (Max +4D6).
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post Jun 19 2013, 01:04 PM
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The upper ranks were just to better represent the more experienced character.

If you were a 5 skill with a gun before you would still be a 5 skill now I would imagine. They just raised the ceiling so to speak.

Expect the legendary characters to be rewritten to reflect these so Fastjack would be the 11 or 12 in decking matters.
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Larsine
post Jun 19 2013, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jun 19 2013, 12:16 AM) *
QUOTE
All I have seen so far of the 3 is Manabolt from the quick start.
Type M, Range LOS, Damage P
Damage equal to net hits, resisted by Willpower, no other Damage resistance tests allowed.
Drain F-2

This is pretty good. Tossing an F5 Manabolt for 3 drain and probably 3-4 actual damage isn't bad. I imagine most people will be tossing more than 9 Drain resist dice.

I'd like to see what using Edge does to the Direct spells, though. Since Edge nominally removes regular limits, would you then want to cast at Force 1 with Edge and still get all your net hits?

There is no restriction on Edge use against magaic tests, so you could do that.

QUOTE
QUOTE

For the Indirect damage types we see Clout.
Type P , Range LOS, Damage S,
Inflicts Stun Damage equal to Magic Rating plus Net hits, Resisted by Reaction & Intuition, remaining damage resisted by Body & Armor,
Drain F-2

Magic rating damage or Force? That is, do you cast at Force 3 for 3 hits but still do Magic +3 damage? Or would it be 3 +3 damage because of the Force? If it's Magic +hits that makes Mages pretty spiffy, since you'd be tossing out 9 damage on a Force 3, Drain 1 spell.

Force is supposed to act as AP as well, right?

Damage is equal to Force + net hits, -Force AP.

QUOTE
QUOTE
the other 3 spells were:

Armor
Provides armor points equal to hits on spellcasting test
Drain F

Bitchin'. Still the question about Edge lifting the cap (cast at Force 1, still get all the net hits?).

Should be able to do that.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Heal
Heals Boxes of Physical damage equal to hits on spellcasting test
Drain F-4 ( A bit of a surprise as used to be DV(F) -2 so healing is actually a little easier)

Much easier to heal, probably a good thing. Target Essence doesn't get in the way? Are sustained-permanent rules still in place?

Health spells are more difficult to use on Low essence characters. Still have to sustain before they become permanent.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Increase reflexes
Add +1 to Initiative and +1 Initiative Dice for every two hits, max 4 points and 4 dice
Drain F-1 (5 Drain for +3 Init , +3 Init dice is not too bad)

Not bad. F8 and 8 hits to get the max bonus.

F8 and 8 hits would give you +8 Initiative and +4D6. I'm not 100% sure but I think 7 hits would also give you +4D6.
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post Jun 19 2013, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (Larsine @ Jun 19 2013, 07:54 AM) *
Damage should be Force plus net hits.
Quick query, is this confirmed from the new rulebook as was just listing from the quickstart so would be good to know for certain?


QUOTE
Also gives you a glowing field of magical energy.
Pros: Shiny. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Cons: tends to draw attention. Use on the Sammy, make them think he is a mystic adept. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


QUOTE
Its an Essence spell, so it's more difficult to cast against low-essence characters. Has to be sustainde to be permanent. Each hit used to decrease the sustaining time saves 1 combat turn.
Assumed this would be the way, but again they really skimped on details in the quickstart

QUOTE
Each hits gives +1 Initiative, each 2 hits gives +1 Initiative die (Max +4D6).

Again the quickstart just made it sound like 2 hits for both bonuses, but probably down to punctuation or lack thereof.
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Jareth Valar
post Jun 19 2013, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jun 19 2013, 07:53 AM) *
Yes, there is.

Sweet. Thanks Patrick.
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post Jun 19 2013, 02:00 PM
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In SR3, and it appears in SR5 as well, there comes a balancing point where you can spend X amount of karma to get one more die in your hyperspecialty (say from skill 11 to 12) or you could raise several lower level skills.

Patrick--Do you know who did the art for your chapter opening?
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 19 2013, 02:40 PM
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QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jun 19 2013, 09:00 AM) *
Patrick--Do you know who did the art for your chapter opening?

I do not, and I can't find a sig anywhere. I'll ask Brent ASAP.
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post Jun 19 2013, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE (Larsine @ Jun 19 2013, 09:07 AM) *
Damage is equal to Force + net hits, -Force AP.

While it would be nice if it was Force + net hits, can you confirm if this is the case from the rulebook as the quickstart is listing Magic + net hits.

I am hoping it was just an error in the quickstart so if anyone snagged the Origins special edition please spill (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Aaron
post Jun 19 2013, 03:01 PM
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Don't you always cast spells at a Force equal to your Magic in the Quick Start Rules?
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post Jun 19 2013, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jun 19 2013, 09:00 AM) *
Patrick--Do you know who did the art for your chapter opening?

According to our intrepid Art Director, that artist is a gentleman named Gordon Bennetto. He debuted as an SR artist in Dirty Tricks, and has some work in Storm Front as well. He also did the character illo for the gunslinger adept.

He rocks on toast as far as I'm concerned.
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post Jun 19 2013, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (Larsine @ Jun 19 2013, 08:07 AM) *
F8 and 8 hits would give you +8 Initiative and +4D6. I'm not 100% sure but I think 7 hits would also give you +4D6.


I just noticed this, so does wired go to level 4 now? What are the non-mage options to get 5 dice. And holy crap +8 to initiative.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 19 2013, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (Not of this World @ Jun 18 2013, 10:49 PM) *
I wonder how many times that questioned can be asked before somebody who bought the rule book actually finds it worth answering?

Please?


A billion times. Yeah I'd like to know this as well, I also want Gator Shaman to make a comeback no more lame croc shaman.
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post Jun 19 2013, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE (Kiirnodel @ Jun 18 2013, 06:02 PM) *
Body also determines how many overflow boxes you have and how long you bleed out before death...



I expect Body is still used to determine knock down.
Hard for a street samurai to look cool when knocked on his ass by the first burst fire he doesn't avoid.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 19 2013, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (cndblank @ Jun 19 2013, 10:45 AM) *
I expect Body is still used to determine knock down.
Hard for a street samurai to look cool when knocked on his ass by the first burst fire he doesn't avoid.


I don't see street samns dumping body, but I do see a lot of other characters. It is about the only dump stat in the game now.
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post Jun 19 2013, 03:51 PM
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So are skill softs still Nerfed at 10K per rating point?

Skillwires was one of the few things that balanced out things for the non awakened.

I mean for a rating 4 skill chip you could hire someone to do the job.

Way over priced, especially when you considering just how much free domain/pirated skill softs for non technical skills had to be out there.
I mean how much does sailing a boat or swinging a club change from year to year?
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 19 2013, 03:58 PM
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They honestly need to redo skillsofts a great deal IMO. If its just a program its hackable and free, and fee skills is a bit much even if you have to update them every month for game reasons. Raising a skill from 1 to 4 would cost 4+4+6+8 karma or 24 karma how much is 24 karma worth in nuyen? Yeah its not as good as the skill so some discount, but it needs to be expensive on some level. Personally I'd make it so there are 2 types of skill softs, one you can just chip in and it works, its for languages etc and has some serious limits, others would need to be tailored for the user taking into account your reflexes, agility, eye sight psychological make up etc so they could not be just hacked, were expensive but had fewer limits.
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bonehead
post Jun 19 2013, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jun 19 2013, 11:08 AM) *
According to our intrepid Art Director, that artist is a gentleman named Gordon Bennetto. He debuted as an SR artist in Dirty Tricks, and has some work in Storm Front as well. He also did the character illo for the gunslinger adept.

He rocks on toast as far as I'm concerned.


Agreed. He made me want to play a gunslinger again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Moirdryd
post Jun 19 2013, 04:29 PM
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You mean like the good old fashioned Datasofts, Lingasofts and Knowsofts as well as Skillsofts.
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post Jun 19 2013, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 19 2013, 10:58 AM) *
They honestly need to redo skillsofts a great deal IMO.


Skills in SR5 go to 12 - I assume that skillwire skills do not go to 12. If that is the case, then cheap prices and/or cracked skillwires (if it is really coming, because, you know, JH is a SR3 fanboy, so don´t expect cracked programms like in Unwired) are not really a problem. They stop at "professional" level and for everything else you can go to 12. Combined with no edge usability (at least in SR4, I assume that this is carried to SR5 as well) and the increased edge regeneration and effect on limits, hits etc it balance out.

Your runners can have some minor skills without Karma, but for the heavy (and important) stuff you want real skills, even if they are on the same level.

SYL
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post Jun 19 2013, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 19 2013, 10:58 AM) *
They honestly need to redo skillsofts a great deal IMO. If its just a program its hackable and free, and fee skills is a bit much even if you have to update them every month for game reasons. Razing a skill from 1 to 4 would cost 4+4+6+8 karma or 24 karma how much is 24 karma worth in nuyen? Yeah its not as good as the skill so some discount, but it needs to be expensive on some level. Personally I'd make it so there are 2 types of skill softs, one you can just chip in and it works, its for languages etc and has some serious limits, others would need to be tailored for the user taking into account your reflexes, agility, eye sight psychological make up etc so they could not be just hacked, were expensive but had fewer limits.


Back on topic:
What is the max rating for skillwires now that skills can go so much higher?


What is the nuyen cost per point of active skillsofts?




Off topic
But skills that don't need to be updated regularly to stay SOTA should be dirt cheap because of freeware, opensource, public domain, and piracy.
Yeah the max rating of the skillsoft will be lower then the current latest edition, but for most stuff you don't need to have the highest rated software if you are using skill softs.
You just want enough to get by.

But at 10K per rating, that isn't really feasible.
The only people who will have skillsofts will be ones that the governments or corps provide it to because who can afford to drop 40K for a rating 4 skill and then pay to keep it up to date (unless you are getting the group discount by buying licensing for hundreds of users).

Why should skill softs be any different from any other program in the Sixth World?
Sooner or later a hacker will remove any DRM.
After 30 years there should be a huge library of skill softs out there.

Now I can easily see max rated SOTA technical skill softs running 10K per rating.
You make a real good point on having to fine tune/customize a skillsoft to be able to make use all the bio and cyberware out there.
That would be expensive.

It is having the same cost per rating point for lower rating skills soft that are not going to be changing that much from decades ago.
I always figured if a guy with skillwires wanted to restore his Dad's old ford mustang, he could buy a few low rating mechanic and bodywork skill chips and get to work on the weekends but the current price scheme makes that totally unfeasible.

Plus with the new skills rating system going to 12, some rating 5 skills are not that big of game changer.

Don't want to hijack this thread so I'm open to starting a new topic if someone wants to continue on this subject.
Thanks
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Not of this Worl...
post Jun 20 2013, 04:17 AM
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QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Jun 18 2013, 08:58 PM) *
...but no actual in-game mechanics to reflect the differences?

Outside of different Drain Attributes and different spirit loadouts?


Yeah, I actually got a different answer elsewhere that says that "Mentor Spirits" now have an in-game effect. Can't seem to get a good detailed answer though so I guess I'll wait till the book is released and then homerule accordingly.
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tasti man LH
post Jun 20 2013, 04:34 AM
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QUOTE (Not of this World @ Jun 19 2013, 09:17 PM) *
Yeah, I actually got a different answer elsewhere that says that "Mentor Spirits" now have an in-game effect. Can't seem to get a good detailed answer though so I guess I'll wait till the book is released and then homerule accordingly.

You mean like the mechanics that are already in place for Mentor Spirits in SR4?

Or are the benefits/drawbacks different for SR5?
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bonehead
post Jun 20 2013, 01:26 PM
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Mentor Spirits now have an Advantage listed for All, Magician, and Adept. If you are a Mystic Adept you have to pick which benefit you want. Each also has a disadvantage that everyone has to deal with. Some of them can be pretty harsh.
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Valerian
post Jun 20 2013, 05:21 PM
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1) What test should be done by a hacker to hack the commlink of someone else and what test should be done to resist ?
in particular:
I suppose that the hacker launch Intuition+hacking skill dices (with limit based on a cyberdeck attributes), but is it now an opposed test or a treeshold test ?

Does the commlink resist with only attributes/programs (Firewall indeed) or we take into account a skill or an attribute of its owner (for exemple, Logic+Computer with limit=Firewall) ?



2) Do spirits have the same power as in SR4 rules or powers were reworked to give more differences between two kinds of spirit (contrary to SR4 where air, water and man spirit have rather the same powers) ?

3) Does the drain for summoning still "2 x Success" of the spirit ?

4) Do spirits have still a 2 x Force "heavy armor" ?
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tasti man LH
post Jun 20 2013, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (bonehead @ Jun 20 2013, 05:26 AM) *
Mentor Spirits now have an Advantage listed for All, Magician, and Adept. If you are a Mystic Adept you have to pick which benefit you want. Each also has a disadvantage that everyone has to deal with. Some of them can be pretty harsh.

Oh, ok then. That's good that now Mentor Spirits look a lot more attractive, versus in SR4 where there was no point in getting them besides for RP if you were an adept.
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post Jun 20 2013, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Jun 20 2013, 12:49 PM) *
Oh, ok then. That's good that now Mentor Spirits look a lot more attractive, versus in SR4 where there was no point in getting them besides for RP if you were an adept.


*thumbs up*
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DWC
post Jun 20 2013, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Jun 20 2013, 01:49 PM) *
Oh, ok then. That's good that now Mentor Spirits look a lot more attractive, versus in SR4 where there was no point in getting them besides for RP if you were an adept.


Not so. Several Mentors actually offered benefits to non-magical skills, making them quite handy. 2 dice on a skill for 5BP isn't bad at all, especially when you're not casting so you don't care about the disadvantages.
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tasti man LH
post Jun 20 2013, 08:34 PM
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Also to Critias, not sure if you can answer this or not but:

Are Adept Ways in the core rulebook now, or will we not see them until the SR5 magic book gets out?
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Critias
post Jun 20 2013, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Jun 20 2013, 02:34 PM) *
Also to Critias, not sure if you can answer this or not but:

Are Adept Ways in the core rulebook now, or will we not see them until the SR5 magic book gets out?

Since the book's out (Origins-out, at least), we've got a bit more leeway in answering stuff: no, there are no rules for Adept Ways in the core book. There was lots of stuff some of us would've liked to see fit in here, but keep in mind this puppy's already clocking in at (iirc) 480 pages. Fiddly stuff, detailed stuff, fluffy stuff, specialized stuff, all kind of got shoved aside to try and make room for what's already a honkin' huge monster of a core book. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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DWC
post Jun 20 2013, 09:27 PM
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What kind of content got added to make the book 100 pages longer than SR4A?
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tasti man LH
post Jun 20 2013, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 20 2013, 01:39 PM) *
Since the book's out (Origins-out, at least), we've got a bit more leeway in answering stuff: no, there are no rules for Adept Ways in the core book. There was lots of stuff some of us would've liked to see fit in here, but keep in mind this puppy's already clocking in at (iirc) 480 pages. Fiddly stuff, detailed stuff, fluffy stuff, specialized stuff, all kind of got shoved aside to try and make room for what's already a honkin' huge monster of a core book. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Gah, alright then. Guess I'll just play the waiting game with regards to the SR5 magic book.

(good lord this summer is going to be expensive for me. Between SR5, the core book for Star Wars: Edge of the Empire, Comic Con, and SR:R....yeesh)

QUOTE (DWC @ Jun 20 2013, 02:27 PM) *
What kind of content got added to make the book 100 pages longer than SR4A?

Well, judging from the previews, for starters a lot more qualities.

If the Gunslinger Adept sheet and the Sprawl Ganger sheet is anything to go by, a lot of the qualities listed for them first appeared in SR4 in Runner's Companion. So probably a fatter default list of qualities.

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post Jun 20 2013, 09:53 PM
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Outstanding questions:

1) About how much faster does Edge refresh? Daily? Faster? By taking some specific action?

2) Is Edge still "spend one point, get dice equal to your normal max Edge" or is it less effective?

3) Is there any way to increase the base damage of Direct Combat spells (instead of just net hits, net hits + anything)?

4) Is there any real benefit to overcasting Direct Combat spells if you don't have scads of dice to throw?

5) Does casting a Direct Combat spell at Force 1 and then spending Edge bypass Limit = Force?
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post Jun 20 2013, 10:12 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jun 20 2013, 04:53 PM) *
5) Does casting a Direct Combat spell at Force 1 and then spending Edge bypass Limit = Force?

Is that really a "Limit"? I know people used that comparison to justify the new rule. Although spell Force, like Limits, cap the number of hits, I don't think they count. But who knows?

Edit: In the magic preview (#5), it uses the word limit to describe the Force of a spell at least twice. It also notes the spellcasting test as: Spellcasting + Magic [Force], which to me clinches it. The Edge Effects subsections of preview #2 states that a point of edge can be spent to add your edge dice to a test and "to ignore any limit on your test."

Some might question now whether spell force really counts, because preview #2 also said that there are two kinds of limits: inherent and gear, and Force seems to be neither.
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post Jun 21 2013, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jun 20 2013, 06:12 PM) *
Is that really a "Limit"? I know people used that comparison to justify the new rule. Although spell Force, like Limits, cap the number of hits, I don't think they count. But who knows?

Edit: In the magic preview (#5), it uses the word limit to describe the Force of a spell at least twice. It also notes the spellcasting test as: Spellcasting + Magic [Force], which to me clinches it. The Edge Effects subsections of preview #2 states that a point of edge can be spent to add your edge dice to a test and "to ignore any limit on your test."

Some might question now whether spell force really counts, because preview #2 also said that there are two kinds of limits: inherent and gear, and Force seems to be neither.


If this is anything like SR4, (and it likely is,) your base casting pool is supposed to be Spellcasting + Force, not Spellcasting + Magic, so Force affects both your limit AND your dice pool.
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post Jun 21 2013, 01:28 PM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jun 21 2013, 09:07 PM) *
If this is anything like SR4, (and it likely is,) your base casting pool is supposed to be Spellcasting + Force, not Spellcasting + Magic, so Force affects both your limit AND your dice pool.

SR4 casting pool is spellcasting + magic
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Mäx
post Jun 21 2013, 01:28 PM
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QUOTE (Rubic @ Jun 21 2013, 03:07 PM) *
If this is anything like SR4, (and it likely is,) your base casting pool is supposed to be Spellcasting + Force, not Spellcasting + Magic, so Force affects both your limit AND your dice pool.

No casting pool is Spellcasting+Magic and so it was in SR4.
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Moirdryd
post Jun 21 2013, 01:34 PM
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As posted SR5 casting is Spellcasting + Magic (Force). Force IMHO would count as a "gear" limit because a spell is essentially "gear" for a Mage in the same way that Accuracy is a gear limit for anyone using a gun. It does say several times that Force is a Limit.

This also makes Magic an attribute to be carefully used as it directly effects your ability to perform magic both by capping your spells Force maximums (Magic x 2) for none physical drain, but also by being part of the dice pool. I quite like it.
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Sendaz
post Jun 21 2013, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jun 21 2013, 09:34 AM) *
As posted SR5 casting is Spellcasting + Magic (Force). Force IMHO would count as a "gear" limit because a spell is essentially "gear" for a Mage in the same way that Accuracy is a gear limit for anyone using a gun. It does say several times that Force is a Limit.

This also makes Magic an attribute to be carefully used as it directly effects your ability to perform magic both by capping your spells Force maximums (Magic x 2) for none physical drain, but also by being part of the dice pool. I quite like it.

So get your initiation on as early as possible (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

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Moirdryd
post Jun 21 2013, 01:42 PM
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Hasn't that always been the way? Initiate ASAP! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Aaron
post Jun 21 2013, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (DWC @ Jun 20 2013, 04:27 PM) *
What kind of content got added to make the book 100 pages longer than SR4A?

Some really good fiction.
Expanded chargen options.
Clearer rule descriptions throughout.
Awesome artwork.
Lots of examples.
Reworked Matrix rules.
Expanded rigging rules.
More magic options.
Good advice section for gamemasters.
Expanded contacts, grunts, and critters.
Detailed index for all that stuff.

... and lots more I didn't think of off the top of my head.
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Sendaz
post Jun 21 2013, 06:35 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 21 2013, 11:22 AM) *
Some really good fiction.
Expanded chargen options.
Clearer rule descriptions throughout.
Awesome artwork.
Lots of examples.
Reworked Matrix rules.
Expanded rigging rules.
More magic options.
Good advice section for gamemasters.
Expanded contacts, grunts, and critters.
Detailed index for all that stuff.

... and lots more I didn't think of off the top of my head.

Looking forward to the examples. It's always nicer to see the actual effects in play.
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Valerian
post Jun 21 2013, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 21 2013, 06:22 PM) *
...
Expanded rigging rules.
...


What are the improvement for riggers, please?

Are there new attributs for vehicule/drone or just a rework of "vehicule combat rules" ?
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RHat
post Jun 21 2013, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE (Valerian @ Jun 21 2013, 12:12 PM) *
What are the improvement for riggers, please?

Are there new attributs for vehicule/drone or just a rework of "vehicule combat rules" ?


Further, is there more to building a rigger now?
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DWC
post Jun 21 2013, 10:34 PM
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Did the Acceleration and Speed thing get fixed, or is Acceleration still a velocity?
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Glyph
post Jun 22 2013, 03:03 AM
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How did the social skills get changed? I always felt that it was the vagueness of the rules, more than the super-high dice pools, that made them so potentially unbalancing.
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RHat
post Jun 22 2013, 03:04 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 21 2013, 08:03 PM) *
How did the social skills get changed? I always felt that it was the vagueness of the rules, more than the super-high dice pools, that made them so potentially unbalancing.


If Leadership still exists, does it have actual defined rules for its effect?
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 22 2013, 03:11 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 21 2013, 11:03 PM) *
How did the social skills get changed? I always felt that it was the vagueness of the rules, more than the super-high dice pools, that made them so potentially unbalancing.


Other than listing 2 social skill groups, we haven't got much on this and yeah I'd like to know as well.
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Daedelus
post Jun 22 2013, 06:50 PM
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Are there rules included in the combat system for miniatures based combat, or is it abstract only?
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 22 2013, 07:03 PM
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Core book is traditional, abstract combat. There is a miniatures game, Shadowrun: Sprawl Gangers, coming out soon that might fill your needs. I don't know much about it, however.
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 22 2013, 07:09 PM
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Because someone asked about skill ratings.

No rating: Unaware
Rating 0: Untrained
Beginner
Novice
Competent
Proficient
Skilled
Professional
Veteran
Expert
Exceptional
Elite
Legendary
Rating 12-13: Apex

I didn't feel like tying out the ratings, but I also take it as a given that you guys can count from 0 to 13.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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tasti man LH
post Jun 22 2013, 07:10 PM
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Sprawl Gangers minis you could appropriate them for use in an SR RPG game, but they aren't designed with that in mind.

In an interview awhile back, they did say that if Sprawl Gangers does well enough, minis for the regular SR game will get considered.
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Jareth Valar
post Jun 22 2013, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jun 22 2013, 03:09 PM) *
Because someone asked about skill ratings.

No rating: Unaware
Rating 0: Untrained
Beginner
Novice
Competent
Proficient
Skilled
Professional
Veteran
Expert
Exceptional
Elite
Legendary
Rating 12-13: Apex

I didn't feel like tying out the ratings, but I also take it as a given that you guys can count from 0 to 13.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thank you sir. This helps a lot.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 22 2013, 09:29 PM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jun 22 2013, 03:03 PM) *
Core book is traditional, abstract combat. There is a miniatures game, Shadowrun: Sprawl Gangers, coming out soon that might fill your needs. I don't know much about it, however.


Can someone explain this, what makes this more or less abstract than say D&D 4e. We have movement in meters not 5' squares, there is reach and intercept rules, line of sight etc. It seems pretty well set up for minatures if that is what you want to use. Though maps, terrain might be a bit of a hassle with elevation etc. I guess some things need to be abstract to some degree do to range, like a sniper but even that can be represented on a map.
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Werewindlefr
post Jun 22 2013, 10:05 PM
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Where are the augmented maximums for each metatype in the book? (They're mentioned to exist at least in one of the adept's powers)

Also, is the +1 limit for Enhanced articulations always active or is it just for escape artist checks?
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Bull
post Jun 22 2013, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Jun 22 2013, 05:05 PM) *
Where are the augmented maximums for each metatype in the book? (They're mentioned to exist at least in one of the adept's powers)

Also, is the +1 limit for Enhanced articulations always active or is it just for escape artist checks?


Augmented Maximum is current attribute +4. You can never get more than a +4 bonus to an attribute, regardless of what that attribute currently is. So if you're a troll with a strength of 5, augmented max is 9. If you raise your natural strength to a 10, then augmented max is 14.
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Werewindlefr
post Jun 22 2013, 10:16 PM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Jun 22 2013, 06:13 PM) *
Augmented Maximum is current attribute +4. You can never get more than a +4 bonus to an attribute, regardless of what that attribute currently is. So if you're a troll with a strength of 5, augmented max is 9. If you raise your natural strength to a 10, then augmented max is 14.

Can you please give me the page? The book's a doorstoper and I can't find the reference (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) .
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Bull
post Jun 22 2013, 11:12 PM
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p. 94, second column, last paragraph under the Spend Your Resources heading.

I'll note this section specifically refers only to cyber and bio, but under the individual spells and adept powers it specifically refers back to the AUgmented Max, which is what this section defines. It likely could have been more clearly stated, unfortunately.
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Mäx
post Jun 22 2013, 11:45 PM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Jun 23 2013, 12:13 AM) *
Augmented Maximum is current attribute +4. You can never get more than a +4 bonus to an attribute, regardless of what that attribute currently is. So if you're a troll with a strength of 5, augmented max is 9. If you raise your natural strength to a 10, then augmented max is 14.

Whats the reasoning for this change, was there some big problem that you tried to fix with this change?
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 22 2013, 11:54 PM
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Probably do to the odd resutls for even and odd attributes, a 7 agility is 10, a 8 is 12. Its a big swing.
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Mäx
post Jun 22 2013, 11:59 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 23 2013, 01:54 AM) *
Probably do to the odd resutls for even and odd attributes, a 7 agility is 10, a 8 is 12. Its a big swing.

But it's not just that it's a static number addition now, they also changed it so that it's calculated from current attribute and not the racial max.
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