Under what circumstances are Qi Foci worthwhile? Options

[Samoth]

Qi focus is 2x rating in Karma to bind and 3000Y per rating point. Rating must be 4x the adept power point cost to buy (so, Combat Sense 1 costs .5PP, which would require a Force 2 Qi focus). The max focus available at chargen is level 4, or 1PP of powers (though you can have multiple foci).

I'm not seeing any outstanding reasons to use starting money and karma to get one of these, any opinions?

[SpellBinder]

Unless there's some errata talk I'm not aware of, from page 319: "The Force of the focus must be four times the Power Point cost of the power it holds,"

On the question asked, I've never actually made a starting character with a focus of any kind.

[Samoth]

Sorry, that was a typo on my end.

[Jaid]

Qi focus is 2x rating in Karma to bind and 3000Y per rating point. Rating must be 4x the adept power point cost to buy (so, Combat Sense 1 costs .5PP, which would require a Force 2 Qi focus). The max focus available at chargen is level 4, or 1PP of powers (though you can have multiple foci).

I'm not seeing any outstanding reasons to use starting money and karma to get one of these, any opinions?

well, it's 13 karma to get your first initiation. it's 8 karma and 12,000 nuyen to get a bonus power point from a qi focus. more interestingly, you can have multiples and turn them off and on as you feel necessary, which means you can actually pick up utility powers without feeling like you're missing out on getting your core set of powers.

worth it in chargen? maybe, maybe not. personally, i suspect you probably don't have much better to do with the karma or money in many cases, but that will depend on the specific adept in question.

but it definitely has strong potential to be a worthwhile investment, and it does mean you can customize your powers for specific occasions by turning a focus on or off as needed if you have multiple focuses (and aren't willing to risk focus addiction, that is).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It is potentially useful, to be sure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Slide]

Having multiples might be a small issue with the way that the addiction (as I read it) works. That if in the time period of x weeks you use foci adding up to above your magic rating you need to make an addiciton roll. Its a small threshold but still possible to fail.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Having multiples might be a small issue with the way that the addiction (as I read it) works. That if in the time period of x weeks you use foci adding up to above your magic rating you need to make an addiciton roll. Its a small threshold but still possible to fail.

I see that as being Simultaneous Useage.

[Slide]

I see that as being Simultaneous Useage.

Except it's "total Force of all active foci" Not the highest number force used at anyone time.

[Cain]

You can use multiple small qi foci to gain access to lots of different powers. For example, you can have one with Enhanced Accuracy for one skill, another for a different skill, etc. Technically, you can stack the same power, so you can get Increased Reflexes 3 for very cheap. (That last one should be errata'd, however. It's a dirty trick.)

[Sendaz]

Each qi focus is specific to a single adept power at a specific level.

I do not see it saying anywhere that you could stack this, unless you are saying because it does not specifically say you can't but then you are falling under the description of cheesemonkey. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But I suppose it should be errata'd just to make it clearer.

[Samoth]

Each qi focus is specific to a single adept power at a specific level.

I do not see it saying anywhere that you could stack this, unless you are saying because it does not specifically say you can't but then you are falling under the description of cheesemonkey. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But I suppose it should be errata'd just to make it clearer.

One of the examples notes you can buy additional levels of a power you know one level of using foci. Example, you have Increased Reflexes 1, you can buy levels 2 and 3 as individual foci to modify that...apparently.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except it's "total Force of all active foci" Not the highest number force used at anyone time.

Active at one time, not active across the week. Otherwise all mages using foci will be addicted.

[Sendaz]

One of the examples notes you can buy additional levels of a power you know one level of using foci. Example, you have Increased Reflexes 1, you can buy levels 2 and 3 as individual foci to modify that...apparently.

Yes, that's fine, but it sounded like they were implying one could buy multiple level 1's to stack up to a 3.

[Cain]

Yes, that's fine, but it sounded like they were implying one could buy multiple level 1's to stack up to a 3.

No, because Increased reflexes 1 costs 1.5 PP, outside of what a starting Qi Focus can hold. You can buy multiple level 4's, presuming you have Level 1, though it is cheesy and should be fixed.

[Voran]

Makes ya wonder how many IEs and Dwaaaaagons are addicted to their foci.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Focus Addiction, Just another horrible implementation in a sea of horrible implementations.

[Voran]

heh I know, by the rules you'd think more awakened types go all Gollum on a superfrequent basis.

[Sendaz]

You will find what works for PC's doesn't always work the same for NPC's, especially the Named ones.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You will find what works for PC's doesn't always work the same for NPC's, especially the Named ones.

Goose and Gander... Sadly, it does not always apply. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Slide]

Active at one time, not active across the week. Otherwise all mages using foci will be addicted.

I think that's the point. It throws a soft cap at how many foci you use and how often. If you have a problem with that you are probably letting your awakened use too many foci. As much as everyone seems to think that tech characters got the shaft, I'm surprised people are resistant to ways to reign in magic characters. Besides when looking at how addicted an alcoholic is you look at how much booze he drinks across a long period of time, not just on one binge.

[Voran]

Addiction rules are funny. One would think there should be addiction rules for "Shooting people" and "Blowing shit up."

[Slide]

Addiction rules are funny. One would think there should be addiction rules for "Shooting people" and "Blowing shit up."

That would imply that serial killers and arsonist aren't real in SR.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that's the point. It throws a soft cap at how many foci you use and how often. If you have a problem with that you are probably letting your awakened use too many foci. As much as everyone seems to think that tech characters got the shaft, I'm surprised people are resistant to ways to reign in magic characters. Besides when looking at how addicted an alcoholic is you look at how much booze he drinks across a long period of time, not just on one binge.

See, it doesn't. If you assume additive rather than simultaneous use, then that mage who gets in 2-3 separate fights in a week will likely be addicted, from his Force 4 Power Focus that he used 3 or 4 times to cast his spells. And that is just crap. And there would never be a reason to have more than a single focus ever, becasue even that one will addict you in short order. Use a Rating 2 Sustaining Focus for your Increased Willpower, just on GP and used every day, will have you exceeding your limit, and you will be addicted. I have no issues with the Mage bopping around with Foci in the Force 12-15 range (total) having to worry about their addiction. But when it is one or two minor Force Sustaining Foci, I have issues with it. After all, you are only allowed to have up to your Logic in Active Foci at a time. Which is already a pretty good limit, in my opinion.

[Slide]

You miss understand what I'm saying. It's the total of all the seperate foci u use. Power is addictive.

[Samoth]

Someone on the other board said that using Attribute Boost level 1 in a level 1 Qi Focus is a pretty good idea, and I'm not sure he's wrong. Assuming 6 magic, 7 die will average 2 hits (assuming TN 5? It doesn't say) which is very efficient power use (oh and you have to resist 1s drain...ouch). Of course, at .25PP per level it's not hard to fit this into your build without paying for a foci anyway.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You miss understand what I'm saying. It's the total of all the seperate foci u use. Power is addictive.

Yes, as it should be. But that total should be because of simultaneous useage. Not because I use one focus today, and a differnet focus (of the same power level) on Thursday. It should be because I used them BOTH at the same time, and the power is calling to me. :wobble)

[Cain]

And that's why the addiction rules are borked. Someone who binges is less likely to be addicted than a regular user, not the other way around.

Under the current rules, someone who overloads on foci just once every week for three weeks is at risk for addiction, while someone who overloads 24/7 for two weeks then takes a week off is at no risk at all.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And that's why the addiction rules are borked. Someone who binges is less likely to be addicted than a regular user, not the other way around.

Under the current rules, someone who overloads on foci just once every week for three weeks is at risk for addiction, while someone who overloads 24/7 for two weeks then takes a week off is at no risk at all.

Yep... Not surprised, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Addiction is quirky in real life as well.

I think the idea is under the magic limit you are a at the drink a day kind of guy. Sure yeah that sometimes addicts people, on the other hand usually no it doesn't. Under a certain threshold you are probably not getting the magic high that would be addictive.

[Slide]

Addiction is quirky in real life as well.

I think the idea is under the magic limit you are a at the drink a day kind of guy. Sure yeah that sometimes addicts people, on the other hand usually no it doesn't. Under a certain threshold you are probably not getting the magic high that would be addictive.

That depends, do you feel that you need that beer after work every day to take the edge off? Are you slightly annoyed when you don't get it? Welcome to mild addiction. Almost like people who have to have a cup of coffee every day to get by. Addiction doesn't allways mean detrimental to your life, thats just the truely bad cases of it.

Now on the same point would most mages feel aprehensive if they don't have their foci with them? would they be a bit jumpy, edgey , irritable? would they act in a diffrent manner without them? If the character isn't addicted to the foci, maybe the player is.

[Wulffyre]

That depends, do you feel that you need that beer after work every day to take the edge off? Are you slightly annoyed when you don't get it? Welcome to mild addiction. Almost like people who have to have a cup of coffee every day to get by. Addiction doesn't allways mean detrimental to your life, thats just the truely bad cases of it.

Now on the same point would most mages feel aprehensive if they don't have their foci with them? would they be a bit jumpy, edgey , irritable? would they act in a diffrent manner without them? If the character isn't addicted to the foci, maybe the player is.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9831/k8ov.jpg


You have changed my life! This is a game changer

[Dolanar]

as far as Qi Foci...I would use some of the lesser used Adept powers coming in more here...or things that have highly situational use. Or for basic every day stuff if you have a hard time getting the extra points for more PP.

[RHat]

as far as Qi Foci...I would use some of the lesser used Adept powers coming in more here...or things that have highly situational use. Or for basic every day stuff if you have a hard time getting the extra points for more PP.

See: Improved Sense, Wall Running...

[Fatum]

Foci addiction is imo as much bulldrek as hotsim addiction. Punishing a character for doing his job is just backwards.

[RHat]

Foci addiction is imo as much bulldrek as hotsim addiction. Punishing a character for doing his job is just backwards.

Now I'm reminded of TF2's Heavy and his relationship with his guns...

[phlapjack77]

Foci addiction is imo as much bulldrek as hotsim addiction. Punishing a character for doing his job is just backwards.

I never saw it in this light, but I really like your point. It seems like a shoe-horned way to try to curtail players using a lot of foci, even though there are already other rules in place for that.

[Fatum]

Yeah, there are ways to limit foci abuse without addiction. The foci addiction is like making machineguns or chameleon suits addictive.
Oh, here's a better example: implantation addiction is canon. Should using the implants also be made addictive? "Addiction to power" and all that.

[Sendaz]

Oh, here's a better example: implantation addiction is canon. Should using the implants also be made addictive? "Addiction to power" and all that.

Wait, isn't THIS how an addiction to implants could end up?

[phlapjack77]

Wait, isn't THIS how an addiction to implants could end up?

Interesting that you seem to have saved this link... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[quentra]

I nearly always take Aug Addiction for my sams. I mean, that chrome, it's just so shiny...

[Slide]

Ofcoarse sams are addicted to augmentation, less than .25 ess? how is that not addiction, you are barely a human being at that point. And saying that they are being punished for "doing their job" is a bull shit argument. Thats like saying that steroids used by major league athleats, or methanphetamines used by seals to stay awake aren't harmful and/or addictive. I mean they are just trying to do their job right? Or wait, maybe your saying that if I build a supper tank tin man sam I shouldn't become addicted to the Kamakazi I use to boost my inititive. I'm just doing my job right? But I guess that it comes down to the concept of player agency, where nothing should actually stand in the players way.

Welcome to the cyberpunk dystopian future, where becoming the top 1% in the food chain cost you something.

[Fatum]

Ofcoarse sams are addicted to augmentation, less than .25 ess? how is that not addiction, you are barely a human being at that point.

Not all sams are .25 essence; but sure, as soon as it's in the rules, you can say that focus addiction is par for the course.

And saying that they are being punished for "doing their job" is a bull shit argument.

I can hardly offer anything to argue such a strongly presented point.

[Slide]

Yes, thank you for taking one sentence of what I said, calling it a "strong argument" in an attempt to be a sarcastic ass while ignoring what else I've written. You have a future in politics my friend. About as effective as saying that adiction is bulldreck and backwards.

[Dolanar]

actually I find Improved Senses can be worthwhile if you take some of the more exotic ones, I recently took thermo (the most capacity expensive of the eyewear options) for a small expenditure of PP, also when we get more options that means we can get Xray or other exotic types through it

[Fatum]

Yes, thank you for taking one sentence of what I said

So you just skipped the first half of my comment, then?

[Slide]

No, just didn't feel the need to respond to it. Thanks for the partial quote again. I feel almost famous.

[Fatum]

No, just didn't feel the need to respond to it.

So, you read it, but despite it addressing your argument, you still felt the need to claim your argument was being ignored? I am sorry that not all that is read is understood.

[Slide]

because it didn't address anything. It takes into acount none of the penalties associated with low ess.

[Fatum]

Okay, I see I'll have to handwalk you through this, as you appear sadly overwhelmed.

(1) You claim that focus addiction is a reasonable rule, because sams with 0.25 essence are equally addicted to implantation.
(2) I point out that this implantation addiction is not in the rules, and thus changes the sensibleness of focus addiction in no way.
(3) Now you counter that "the penalties associated with low ess" are taken "into no acount" (whatever that might be), as if it somehow contradicts the point (2).

[Slide]

ok, so how would implementation of augmentation addiction look?

And I will ask you one time only to stop making personal attacks on the public forum. If you feel the need to private message me that's fine.

[Slide]

oh wait. I just pulled out my rule book. page 77

COMMON ADDICTIONS
• Better-than-life chips (p. 460)
• Alchemical preparations (p. 316)
• Alcohol
• Street drugs
• Foci (see p. 318)
• Augmentations

[Fatum]

And I will ask you one time only to stop making personal attacks on the public forum. If you feel the need to private message me that's fine.

Hosea 8:7.

oh wait. I just pulled out my rule book. page 77

What exactly are you arguing?

Oh, here's a better example: implantation addiction is canon.

If it was mentioned somewhere other than on p.77, like, on p. 414; or maybe had something akin to p.319 mentioning it, we'd have the reason to say it's in the rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hosea 8:7.

What exactly are you arguing? If it was mentioned somewhere other than on p.77, like, on p. 414; or maybe had something akin to p.319 mentioning it, we'd have the reason to say it's in the rules.

I have seen characters with Augmentation Addiction in the past. Nothing new here, move along. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Fatum]

I have both seen and made them, but as long as augmentation is not strictly enforced in the rules the way focus addiction is enforced, there's no comparing the two.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have both seen and made them, but as long as augmentation is not strictly enforced in the rules the way focus addiction is enforced, there's no comparing the two.

Well, yeah, that is true. Enforcement on our side was simple... The addict was always looking for that new upgrade, regardless of whether or not the item in question was different. System 15.3.6.98718 was an improvement in the Servo actuators for the Cyberarm, so of course the addict would rush right out to get his ware upgraded (old servos actuators pulled and replaced with the new actuators) to the new paradigm, regardless of whether or not the system itself truly changed (that 0.00000121% Increase in efficiency was the thing, after all). Made for some entertaining conversation between the practical Hard-Bitten Street Sam who relied upon solid tried and true tech. and the Augment addicted Street-Sam wannabe newb who was always trying to keep on the absolute cutting bleeding edge of technology, lest he fall behind the curve. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

I have both seen and made them, but as long as augmentation is not strictly enforced in the rules the way focus addiction is enforced, there's no comparing the two.

What's not comparable is the what augmentations mean to a sam compared to what focuses mean to the magically active. Augmentations make the sam, focuses are a power boost to an already complete character.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What's not comparable is the what augmentations mean to a sam compared to what focuses mean to the magically active. Augmentations make the sam, focuses are a power boost to an already complete character.

That really depends upon the character, though. I have seen many Mages where the Foci ARE the Mage. Take the foci away and they are non-functional. *shrug*
Not the best character design principle, mind you, but it is there. I have also seen it with Street Sams. Take their ware away and they are no longer viable characters according to their players. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

That really depends upon the character, though. I have seen many Mages where the Foci ARE the Mage. Take the foci away and they are non-functional. *shrug*
Not the best character design principle, mind you, but it is there. I have also seen it with Street Sams. Take their ware away and they are no longer viable characters accortding to their players. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I guess its possible for a mage, but the core concept of where they get their power is not focuses. A street sams core source of power is augmentations. A street sam is expected to get 3+ essence in ware, a mage is not expected to get any focuses even if a optimizer might, Can someone make quirky concept X that turns those ideas on there face, sure but the game is not designed to satisfy every insane build out there.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I guess its possible for a mage, but the core concept of where they get their power is not focuses. A street sams core source of power is augmentations. A street sam is expected to get 3+ essence in ware, a mage is not expected to get any focuses even if a optimizer might, Can someone make quirky concept X that turns those ideas on there face, sure but the game is not designed to satisfy every insane build out there.

I am curious as to why you think a Street Sam is expected to have at least 3+ points of 'Ware. No where is that a requirement, or even a need, to be considered a Street Sam. I currently have a Street Sam with NO WARE WHATSOEVER, and he functions just fine. In SR5, he even bangs along at an Init 12+1d6; so barring damage, he will always start with at least 2 passes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

I am curious as to why you think a Street Sam is expected to have at least 3+ points of 'Ware. No where is that a requirement, or even a need, to be considered a Street Sam. I currently have a Street Sam with NO WARE WHATSOEVER, and he functions just fine. In SR5, he even bangs along at an Init 12+1d6; so barring damage, he will always start with at least 2 passes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That isn't a street sam, that is a dude with a gun. The thing that separates a street sam from dude with a gun is the ware, it is the defining characteristic of the archetype.

[Jaid]

That isn't a street sam, that is a dude with a gun. The thing that separates a street sam from dude with a gun is the ware, it is the defining characteristic of the archetype.

eh, no.

the thing that separates a street sam from a dude with a gun is a code. you can have 'ware and still not be a street samurai, and in fact a number of archetypes do in fact have lots of 'ware, but are not considered street samurai.

[pbangarth]

Augmentation may not be sufficient to make a street sam, but surely it is necessary.

[Fatum]

Why? It's "just giving a few extra dice". Like weapons give a few extra DV points. Etc.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That isn't a street sam, that is a dude with a gun. The thing that separates a street sam from dude with a gun is the ware, it is the defining characteristic of the archetype.

No, that is completely wrong. Being a Street Sam is a Philosophy (which is the defining characteristic of the Archetype), it is not the ware. Sadly, there are a Lot of Street Sam in Shadowrun that really aren't. The vast majority of them are just thugs with Ware who have appropriated a name, trying to be more than they actually, truly, are. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Augmentation may not be sufficient to make a street sam, but surely it is necessary.

Most definitely not.

[Slide]

No, that is completely wrong. Being a Street Sam is a Philosophy (which is the defining characteristic of the Archetype), it is not the ware. Sadly, there are a Lot of Street Sam in Shadowrun that really aren't. The vast majority of them are just thugs with Ware who have appropriated a name, trying to be more than they actually, truly, are. *shrug*

Molly Millions (the earliest character that I recall being called a street samurai in nuromancer) didn't follow the code of conduct that SR associates with street sams.

[KarmaInferno]

Street Samurai are defined by their code. Many are augmented but not all. Most are also mundane, but I suppose you could have an Awakened or Technomancer Samurai.

Razorboys (and girls) are always augmented, but don't always follow a code.

Molly Millions? I dunno. Do we see enough of her personal motivations to call her a Samurai by Shadowrun standards? She's not exactly chatty or prone to share her thoughts in the books.


-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Molly Millions (the earliest character that I recall being called a street samurai in nuromancer) didn't follow the code of conduct that SR associates with street sams.

Which is irrelevant, since Shadowrun is not Neuromancer. *shrug*

[Shemhazai]

As an adept, I would want a powerful weapon focus. To limit my exposure to focus addiction, I would want adept abilities that complement my armed combat to be natural. I would consider qi foci for things that I could use while I've got my weapon focus deactivated. Here's a list of things that stand alone from combat that you could deactivate when combat starts:

Critical Strike (Unarmed/Astral/Another weapon, NOT the same as your weapon focus)
Danger Sense (Note that if you are ambushed, you will need to deactivate this and activate your weapon focus to avoid stacking the foci ratings and increase your addiction risk.)
Enhanced Accuracy (Another weapon)
Enhanced Perception
Improved Ability (Not your weapon focus)
Improved Potential (Mental or Social)
Improved Sense
Killing Hands
Kinesics
Light Body
Missile Parry (Two-handed weapon focus)
Natural Immunity (questionable)
Pain Resistance (questionable)
Rapid Healing
Spell Resistance (questionable)
Traceless Walk
Voice Control
Wall Running

The other adept powers are synergistic with using a weapon focus, such as Astral Perception and Attribute Boost. More of these could be questionable if you're thinking about doing things like wall running, light body jumping, or enhanced perceiving during combat.

One thing to note, there is a limit to the number of foci a character can bond with. This makes low-limit adept powers less attractive as qi foci. These include:

Critical Strike
Enhanced Accuracy
Improved Potential
Improved Sense
Killing Hands
Traceless Walk
Wall Running

The first set minus the second set is my list of cool adept powers to have in a qi focus. Exceptions to this might be a combo of Critical Strike (Unarmed Combat), Improved Potential (Physical) and Killing Hands or a combo of Critical Strike (Astral Combat) and Enhanced Accuracy (Weapon Focus (or would that be Astral Combat as well?)). I would still try to bond with higher rating foci so as to not hit the limit set by Magic rating. On the other hand, the total force is Magic x 5, so a few higher powered ones would mean that there might be only room left for lower powered ones.

[phlapjack77]

Can physical adepts be street samurai? Does using magic in any way preclude being a sammie?

Molly Millions? I dunno. Do we see enough of her personal motivations to call her a Samurai by Shadowrun standards? She's not exactly chatty or prone to share her thoughts in the books.

Not trying to catch you out, but I saw your post before you edited it - why'd you change your stance on Molly? You originally had said something like she was just a razorgirl. Did you find something in the books that pointed one way or the other?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Can physical adepts be street samurai? Does using magic in any way preclude being a sammie?

Of course they can... It is a Philosophy/Life Style, not reliance upon ware or magical abilities. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Isath]

Street Samurai do not need to be augmented at all and / or can be augmented in differend ways than extensive Implants (i.e. magic).
In a setting that lacks fantasy elements like magic, they tend to have an affinity for tech of sorts.
They usually strive against the ruling class of a dystopian world and their personal codes of honour make them refuse to sell out to the authority.

That which is called a "Street Samurai" has infact more in common with a ronin, than a samurai of old.

[Dolanar]

Shem, that works for a specific concept, however, for some Adepts a weapon focus is completely & utterly useless, I know my character would never spend money on it unless the GM forced me to fight spirits one on one constantly.

[Sendaz]

Street Samurai do not need to be augmented at all and / or can be augmented in differend ways than extensive Implants (i.e. magic).
In a setting that lacks fantasy elements like magic, they tend to have an affinity for tech of sorts.
They usually strive against the ruling class of a dystopian world and their personal codes of honour make them refuse to sell out to the authority.

That which is called a "Street Samurai" has infact more in common with a ronin, than a samurai of old.

*done to the Rawhide theme song with all due apologies*

Ronin, Ronin, Ronin
Ronin, Ronin, Ronin
Ronin, Ronin, Ronin
Samurai!

Ronin, Ronin, Ronin
Though the sewers are swollen
Keep them runners rollin'
Samurai!

Rain and wind and weather
Hell bent for synthleather
Wishing my gillette here for some fun
All the things I'm wishin'
Good eats, sleep an a mission
Are waiting at the end of my run


Yeah, needs some work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Shem, that works for a specific concept, however, for some Adepts a weapon focus is completely & utterly useless, I know my character would never spend money on it unless the GM forced me to fight spirits one on one constantly.

And even then, Killing hands is cheaper. *shrug*

[Isath]

Yeah, needs some work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Or maybe you need some sleep (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shemhazai]

Are melee weapons with a bunch of extra dice really that bad compared to guns? I was thinking about one character concept of powerful katana focus, high blades (swords), high agility, increased attribute (agility) or improved physical attribute, improved ability (blades), enhanced accuracy (blades), critical strike (blades). That would be a lot of dice on a weapon with accuracy of 8 after the enhanced accuracy power. Str + 4... Would a troll be worthwhile. Good reach and all.

I guess your enemies would pick you off from a distance.

[Jaid]

nothing wrong with making a melee specialist. just so long as you remember that you don't have to be completely and utterly incompetent in every other area to be a specialist.

[FuelDrop]

Are melee weapons with a bunch of extra dice really that bad compared to guns? I was thinking about one character concept of powerful katana focus, high blades (swords), high agility, increased attribute (agility) or improved physical attribute, improved ability (blades), enhanced accuracy (blades), critical strike (blades). That would be a lot of dice on a weapon with accuracy of 8 after the enhanced accuracy power. Str + 4... Would a troll be worthwhile. Good reach and all.

I guess your enemies would pick you off from a distance.

Actually, considering that many shadowruns take place inside a building of some description melee focus isn't necessarily crippling. What IS crippling about that build is that there are no non-lethal options in the blades group, which is very limiting if you put all your points there.

Clubs is less powerful but more versatile, with high concealability, good damage and solid accuracy available in various weapons. Also, with but a single exception they are all completely legal without a license, with the humble club dealing damage that's marginally comparable to a katana at lower skill levels (the low accuracy hurts it a lot, and it lacks any AP, but on the other hand when you walk into a room it's full of potential clubs. Not many rooms I've ever been in have many options for improvised Katanas. Why smuggle a weapon in if you can just pick something up when you get there for similar results?)

As to Qi foci... the only edge augmentation has over them is availability. Increasing attributes via Qi focus is cheap compared to the bioware equivalent in nuyen, and costs karma (a renewable resource) vs Essence (a finite resource). It also can be upgraded more effectively: raising increased attribute 2 to 3 via a focus costs the same as raising it from 0 to 1, while the augmented equivalent requires you to pull out the old stuff, sell it at a fraction of its purchase price, then buy the new 'ware at full price.
To be fair, there are several limitations on Qi Foci that are not there for augmentations: number 1 is the limit on how many you can have. While technically infinite, the cost of increasing this limit is non-trivial and increases exponentially. Still, an augmented character has to deal with essence, which is most definitely a finite resource. Sure, you can squeeze a lot out of it by throwing cash at it but in the end you can't go past deltaware grade no matter how many millions you have to throw.
Number 2 is focus Addiction. This one kind of sucks, and though there is augmentation addiction it's not been given any rules yet so it's not comparable. If used carefully, this isn't an issue (according to some readings, anyway) and if it's risk addiction or die you can power up a bunch of your foci at once. When you use Qi foci for situational utility powers (EG traceless walk, voice control, wall running, light body, rapid healing) and just switch to whatever one you need at the time then Qi foci are potentially very potent with low risks of addiction.

[Dolanar]

no, but since a weapon Focus can only be a melee weapon, unless you actually invest many skill points into a melee skill, you're better off using a gun.

on a quick inspection of the system, to be an effective Adept blademaster you need a high strength, high agility, Solid skill in one or more melee skills.

Blades 6/8+Agi 6+Weapon Focus 4+Adept Power 3 puts you at 21 dice to strike your target, you hit, get about 5 successes (assuming we buy hits), we'll assume 5 strength, meaning you are doing 5+3+5 or 13p total damage with your Weapon Focus Katana.

[Isath]

What IS crippling about that build is that there are no non-lethal options in the blades group, which is very limiting if you put all your points there.

Which is sort of funny, odd even. First off, I really do not see, how one can learn to wield a sword and at the same time, be as clueless about a sophisticated club as the next guy. Sure, there are skill groups, but they are more of an difficult to achieve exeption. Also I wonder... if I wield a bo-ken (which would be a non-lethal option)... would that be a club or a sword (even though a wooden one). While it sort of is a club, I do not see any argument, why a swordsman would have any trouble wielding it.

[Slide]

Which is sort of funny, odd even. First off, I really do not see, how one can learn to wield a sword and at the same time, be as clueless about a sophisticated club as the next guy. Sure, there are skill groups, but they are more of an difficult to achieve exeption. Also I wonder... if I wield a bo-ken (which would be a non-lethal option)... would that be a club or a sword (even though a wooden one). While it sort of is a club, I do not see any argument, why a swordsman would have any trouble wielding it.

And thats why I liked the SR3 skill/default system.

[quentra]

You could always just houserule all the melee skills into one. Personally, I think that's probably the best way to go about it.

[Sendaz]

Or just lift a page from 3rd edition and say if you have clubs but not sword you could wield a sword at 1/2 the club rating plus attribute -1. I would still apply a -1 to att as you are not fully accustomed to using it exactly this way so can not apply all the stat.

Course the flip side of this coin is you will then have folk just focusing on one or two weapons skills to high levels and using that as their default for other weapons.

[Slide]

Or just lift a page from 3rd edition and say if you have clubs but not sword you could wield a sword at 1/2 the club rating plus attribute -1. I would still apply a -1 to att as you are not fully accustomed to using it exactly this way so can not apply all the stat.

Course the flip side of this coin is you will then have folk just focusing on one or two weapons skills to high levels and using that as their default for other weapons.

true, but you can also put some sort of hard cap on how many dice you can get from defaulting like that.... maybe something like 1/2 the linked stat?

[Isath]

Which would be fine by me... Fighting with a sword is closer to fighting with an axe or club, then it is to fighting with a knife.
The real difference by skill would be, armed, unarmed and exotic weapon I guess.
Although one could start to collect flexible weapons, like whips and nunchucks in one skill. Those really are different.

I could also live with "Clubs" relating to heavy clubs alone and adding strength instead of agility.

...whatever, basing two skills about the difference between sharp and blunt trauma, does not make all that much sense, when the way the weapons are used is often very similar, if not the same.

[HugeC]

Can qi foci push you beyond the normal limits of a power? For example, if I have Mystic Armor 6 and Magic 6, can a Force 4 qi focus get me to Mystic Armor 8? Clearly, if no such rank exists (e.g. Improved Reflexes 4) it doesn't work. I guess my gut tells me no, since I don't see any exception to that rule mentioned in the rules for qi foci.

[Slide]

Can qi foci push you beyond the normal limits of a power? For example, if I have Mystic Armor 6 and Magic 6, can a Force 4 qi focus get me to Mystic Armor 8? Clearly, if no such rank exists (e.g. Improved Reflexes 4) it doesn't work. I guess my gut tells me no, since I don't see any exception to that rule mentioned in the rules for qi foci.

the limit is your magic attribute so i'm gonna go with no on that.

[Falconer]

Someone on the other board said that using Attribute Boost level 1 in a level 1 Qi Focus is a pretty good idea, and I'm not sure he's wrong. Assuming 6 magic, 7 die will average 2 hits (assuming TN 5? It doesn't say) which is very efficient power use (oh and you have to resist 1s drain...ouch). Of course, at .25PP per level it's not hard to fit this into your build without paying for a foci anyway.

Disagree with this Samoth...

The big advantage of attribute boost is it's cheap and you really only need/want 1 rank in it to get maximum effect.

The problem with a qi focus is that it's easily deactivated now... especially when you're not astral capable. If you activate it, as a focus it stands out on the astral and is easily spotted. With magic addiction rules as draconian as they are now... only 'magic' in active foci gets used up real fast.


The biggest drawback though is action economy. It's a simple action to activate the focus, then another simple action to activate the power. Since it is so cheap it's hard to see why you wouldn't try to fit it into your normal distro of innate powers. Simple action activate agility boost, simple action quickdraw & fire pistol with the now boosted agility. That instant availability is key.

[Samoth]

Which is sort of funny, odd even. First off, I really do not see, how one can learn to wield a sword and at the same time, be as clueless about a sophisticated club as the next guy. Sure, there are skill groups, but they are more of an difficult to achieve exeption. Also I wonder... if I wield a bo-ken (which would be a non-lethal option)... would that be a club or a sword (even though a wooden one). While it sort of is a club, I do not see any argument, why a swordsman would have any trouble wielding it.

Kind of like how you can be a master of Pistols with a 6 rating but have no clue how to operate a Narcoject Pistol.

[FuelDrop]

Kind of like how you can be a master of Pistols with a 6 rating but have no clue how to operate a Narcoject Pistol.

Which end do the darts go in? *holds up knife*