SR5 Technomancer feedback thread, For an upcoming book! Wow! Options

[Ren]

Hi!

So my next project with Catalyst, don't expect to see it anytime soon, but it's going to be an oversized PDF supplement entirely for Technomancers. I'm doing it with Dylan Stangel, the guy that wrote the TM rules in Data Trails, so don't worry, it's not "Oh god, they're letting the new girl go nuts, we're doomed." As an additional measure, this thread exists. I don't want it to just be my and his perspective. Expect to see one like it on the official forums too.

What I'm looking for is all the feedback and suggestions you have on Technomancers. Positive, negative, neutral, personal attacks on devs and their writing, whatever you want. Maybe not that last one, but you get the idea. Tell me what works, what doesn't, what you miss, what you want gone, and I'll go through all of this and keep it in mind as I'm developing this book.

I'm not gonna make any promises that every single idea will be incorporated, but I'll read this regularly and keep as much in mind as possible. It would help if you explained why you want this or that, so that I get where you're coming from.

[Shemhazai]

It wouldn't bother me if technomancers weren't a thing anymore.

And you should feel free to go nuts.

[SpellBinder]

In all honesty, Paragons, Streams, and some of the old echos (like Mesh Reality) I'd like to see official for SR5. There's more that I'd like, but I think that ship sailed, wrecked, burned, and sank during alpha testing of SR5's core.

Something I don't miss, and I feel should be left dead, extinct, and retconned into never having existed: technocritters.

[Jaid]

general consensus from what i've seen: technomancers are a more expensive method of accomplishing the same goal less effectively than can be accomplished with a decker.

there is opportunity cost in that you pay extra for resonance, and require more skills to be a technomancer. but you can't reconfigure your deck, and can't run programs (which are awesome), and your living person stats are generally not as good in the first place as can be gained from decking even if you couldn't swap them out. damage taken to your living person applies a penalty to your dice pools immediately (as well as to your physical actions, since you've taken real damage), while damage to your deck can be repaired cheaply with a few minutes downtime and does not harm your physical actions in any way. plus, you can upgrade through two different resources (nuyen for better deck, programs, and 'ware, karma for skills) as a decker, while technomancers can only do anything remotely similar if they lose resonance.


there is a cost in that you almost never can get enough resources to cover for your generally poor attributes in the physical world with 'ware, even if you ignore the fact that resonance is tied to essence. fading values are generally high enough that your one special thing can't be used often, and are generally seen as less impactful than spells which have less drain, don't leave you screwed over in the meat world, and cost fewer chargen resources (you can get a bunch of spells in chargen, but not nearly as many complex forms). also, while not being matrix actions is good in some ways (don't generate OS), it is bad in that things which benefit matrix actions do nothing for complex forms.

next you add in that their best abilities generally don't even help themselves, but are actually more about supporting others you could use them to support yourself, but even with your best buffs you won't be as good as the other members of the team are without buffs.

the only build that is accepted as somewhat competitive is calling "pets" (sprites) to do your bidding, and even that costs so much that you're going to be incredibly weak outside of the matrix, plus it basically takes away all your downtime because you're going to spend hours per sprite registering, and hours per sprite resting (days if you take any physical damage).

a lot of the problems could be solved with some fairly simple errata (lower most CF fading codes, reduce priority level required to be a TM wouldn't do anything to make them better at decking, but it would at least mean they don't have to pay so much to be bad at decking). but that's probably beyond the scope of the e-book (and lies firmly in the hands of the senior management, and i fully expect it to not happen, so don't worry... it's not your fault, and i don't blame you for it). it could also be fixed with some not-very-simple errata (rebuilding them from the ground up to be more effective at what they do). that's probably beyond the scope of this edition.

technomancers got double nerfed relative to 4e (they used to cost a ton to build, but were really good at what they do... now they aren't very good at what they do, and they cost even more). remove one or the other (so that they are either really good at what they do, or not cripplingly expensive for what they do) and they'll become much more reasonable.

as to what we want from the e-book... probably a few updates of SR4 material, mostly. i wouldn't worry about fixing technomancers, though. that simply isn't something you're going to accomplish with an e-book unless you basically invalidate most of what is written about technomancers in the core book, and i doubt that's something they're looking for you to do. so update what you can without breaking anything, look for new and interesting things you can add to the game, and be happy with what you can do.

[Jack VII]

This is way beyond what you would be able to do in an e-book, but I'm dropping a link to Abschalten's Technomancer Redux v1.0 (PDF File) where the technomancer is completely redone, with build mechanics vaguely resembling an Adept/Mystic Adept. I thought it was one of the best takes I had seen on it. Just to help you situate yourself outside of the box. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

LINK

[Abschalten]

Oh wow, I didn't think that document had made any traction at all. And I had become so disillusioned with 5e shortly thereafter that I never bothered to update it.

But yeah, feel free to pillage ideas from that document. I had half-meant it to be ideas for future developers anyway.

[Medicineman]

At First I want to thank You for giving aus a Chance to participate in this Brainstorming (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
(not every Freelancer does that.It takes some Chuzpe because some People will be Haters no matter what you do )
So KUDOs from Me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I would like you to get a good Grip on what a Technomancer is and what he can do, and what not !
I would like You to read the Emergence Book from 4th Edition
( lots of Mistakes happen because the Authors don't have the needed Background)
Oh, and to get in contact with the German Freelancers .
If You want to I can ask them to start a similar Thread in Germany and filter the Ideas from these Threads for You

Hough!
Medicineman

[Sendaz]

Sometimes "Oh god, they're letting the new girl go nuts, we're doomed." can be a good thing if it can shake something from the tree that works.

And we definitely appreciate your reaching out to pick the collective brains here, so thank you for this opportunity.

Sadly TM is not really my area of expertise, so can not give much in way of ideas/advice relevant to TMs, but there are plenty here who are.

One thing I might suggest when fine tuning your rules is create your own additional pool of playtesters with a mix of pros and novices, or folks who play different styles. While the main pool of playtesters have their place, sometimes they get into a rut of how they play or they may blast through a section because they 'know' how things are meant to work where a novice might ask is this really how things are supposed to work and a player who does things maybe more Mohawk than Trenchcoat might run into different applications of those rules.

Grenades are a good example of this. While it was said to have been heavily playtested and approved in the new no dodge form with no real problems seen with it as written, when it hit tables at the cons several GMs had to houserule in some kind of a dodge so as to avoid TPK because the grenades were readily available and maybe someone did not take this into account, assuming that grenades would only be used rarely because that just was how their particular groups played.

And don't get me wrong, they should be nasty- that is what they are designed to be and only moving away from one or otherwise taking cover should be your only options, but grenades are such a staple item at times that as they are written why would you use anything else if you got the space to avoid your own blastzone? Sure there is social stigma attached to being a mad dog bomber and how you go to the top of the most wanted lists, but that loses a bit of its punch when you remember we as shadowrunners are largely already a criminal/terrorist by definition.

But if this issue had been better addressed during playtesting we would still have the no normal dodge as that certaionly fits, but then they would have rolled out the 'Run for your Life' Interrupt action and it's cousins right from the start.
Although I might have adjusted the whole 'can use any amount of available Movement to move away from the incoming attack' down just a little bit as it basically just feeds the whole teleport move feel otherwise, but that is another issue for playtesting to discuss. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In any case we wish you well in this venture and look forward to it's release.

[hermit]

Well. What I'd like to see is a definite call on the origins of technomancy. As is, there are two mutually exclusive concepts - "Matrix Magic" as per early SR4, which basically concludes technomancy is a form of magic, and AI genesis, as per the Otaku and late SR3 (which already had adult otaku, such as Ronin, Grid Reaper, Hitomi Shiawase). I'd like to see someone unify them (something along the lines of the Deep Matrix maybe? Which could be tied to what 'mancers experience as Deep Resonance?).

Also, please try and find a way to make the background of AI work - to me it looks like SR4's initial idea was a story very much like Sprawl Trilogy's backstory (Neuromancer, Biochips, Mona Lisa Overdrive) - AI merge, generate a singularity and then shatter into bazillions of smaller AI because reasons. Then the idea of Matrix Magic was introduced, and Paragons were written up who were both "hacker guides" like Biochips' Loa, and at the same time Magix Patrons, and whether or not AI are beings of resonance, Unwired and Runners' Companion were totally at odds. It's quite the gordian knot, so ... try and have fun with that, maybe?

[binarywraith]

Also, if you could sneak something in to let Technomancers offset Resonance loss due to Essence loss, similar to the way Mages used to be able to offset Magic loss via Geasa, it'd be awesome.

It's a crap mechanic anyway, there's no reason in the world that someone who can manipulate technology with their brain should react badly to being more attached to it.

[hermit]

It's an attempt to balance the mage-like mechanics of 'mancers, to avoid them becoming "mages without the flaws". I do agree it's not exactly covered by in-game logic, unless you subscribe to technomancy as a type of magic, as SR4 did for some time.

[SpellBinder]

In SR4 I never had the feel of technomancers being "matrix magicians" but more like someone whose brain doubled as a commlink.

Come SR5, they feel like they really are "matrix magicians" with their own special brand of magic that only works in the matrix (as opposed to true magicians who can work magic in meatspace, astral space, and beyond).

[binarywraith]

It's an attempt to balance the mage-like mechanics of 'mancers, to avoid them becoming "mages without the flaws". I do agree it's not exactly covered by in-game logic, unless you subscribe to technomancy as a type of magic, as SR4 did for some time.

Which I'd be okay with if it didn't violate the basic setting premise that technology is inherently incompatible with magic.

Having Technomancy be something else doesn't bother me nearly as much because it doesn't violate basic premises of how magic works in the setting, and I personally don't think that letting technos cyber up is a problem, given the paucity of tech that makes them better at what they do best as compared to fitting them to take on secondary roles in the 95% of all shadowrunning that isn't occurring in the Matrix.

[hermit]

Which I'd be okay with if it didn't violate the basic setting premise that technology is inherently incompatible with magic.

Yes, that is my main problem with that premise, too.

[Medicineman]

violate the basic setting premise that technology is inherently incompatible with magic.

is it really incompatible ?
Not in My Oppinion.
The two don't like each other very much yes, but They're not inherently incompatible !

with a compatible Dance
Medicineman

[Sendaz]

Hey we are a lot more compatable then say Dresden style magicking that frags up local electronics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hey we are a lot more compatable then say Dresden style magicking that frags up local electronics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yes... See... THAT is Incompatible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Justin]

My biggest problem (besides what has already been mentioned) is that you are so helpless in meat space. Technomancers need pretty much every mental attribute to be high, and even with attributes priority A or B, they are pretty physically crippled.

Even worse, technomancers are the ONLY archetype without any way to increase their initiative. Mages can cast a spell. Adepts have a power for it. Everyone else can get cyberware and bioware without crippling their primary function. Technomancers are stuck with one initiative pass and going last, always.

As far as things that would help bring technomancers to a more playable state:

-Introduce some method of obtaining reasonable initiative compared to the rest of the group and the enemies trying to kill you.

-Mesh Reality echo, at the very least allowing you to have your one initiative pass, and then spend a couple more hacking and supporting with matrix actions in a firefight.

-Introduce some ways to lower fading. Right now complex forms are something you can do once and then have to go sleep it off. I feel like a bumblebee. Adding an echo to resist fading, or widgets, or traits... all of this would help! Something like a mage's fetish, that could lower the fade code of a complex form would also help.

-Technomancer-friendly custom cyberware would be really neat! Having a cyberlimb that I could put a machine sprite in and run diagnostics would be great if it didn't cripple me as a technomancer.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My biggest problem (besides what has already been mentioned) is that you are so helpless in meat space. Technomancers need pretty much every mental attribute to be high, and even with attributes priority A or B, they are pretty physically crippled.

Even worse, technomancers are the ONLY archetype without any way to increase their initiative. Mages can cast a spell. Adepts have a power for it. Everyone else can get cyberware and bioware without crippling their primary function. Technomancers are stuck with one initiative pass and going last, always.

As far as things that would help bring technomancers to a more playable state:

-Introduce some method of obtaining reasonable initiative compared to the rest of the group and the enemies trying to kill you.

-Mesh Reality echo, at the very least allowing you to have your one initiative pass, and then spend a couple more hacking and supporting with matrix actions in a firefight.

-Introduce some ways to lower fading. Right now complex forms are something you can do once and then have to go sleep it off. I feel like a bumblebee. Adding an echo to resist fading, or widgets, or traits... all of this would help! Something like a mage's fetish, that could lower the fade code of a complex form would also help.

-Technomancer-friendly custom cyberware would be really neat! Having a cyberlimb that I could put a machine sprite in and run diagnostics would be great if it didn't cripple me as a technomancer.

For Initiative I give you: Lightning Reflexes... +1 Initiative and +1d6. Positive Quality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sendaz]

As a Techno, or mage for that matter, wanting a few extra passes you should look into getting a rating 2 Synaptic Booster for the +2 Reaction/ +2d6 Init all for the Essence friendly price of 1, which still knocks your MAG/RES but is a pretty good trade off.

[Jaid]

As a Techno, or mage for that matter, wanting a few extra passes you should look into getting a rating 2 Synaptic Booster for the +2 Reaction/ +2d6 Init all for the Essence friendly price of 1, which still knocks your MAG/RES but is a pretty good trade off.

of course, you'll need to put priority B or higher into resources to pull that off.

so, what, are we supposed to go attributes A resonance C skills D race E, and have neither the skills nor the resonance to be a technomancer (compounded by your essence loss), or resonance A attributes C skills D race E, and not have the skills or mental attributes to be a technomancer?

it just doesn't work. technomancers cost too much, and block off too many options.

though again, this is not something i expect can be fixed with a new book. the first thing that needs to happen is that someone at the top has to acknowledge that they screwed up, and change stuff that's in the core book; lower the cost of CFs, lower the priority cost of being a technomancer, and take some of those absurdly stupid echoes that should have been CFs, and make them CFs (and change some of the CFs, like the infusion of [attribute] line so that they're more like an adept's attribute boost).

[Sengir]

Let's start with the positive for a change: 5th Edition is the first time technos are capable of doing truly unique things by default. It always rubbed me the wrong way that all the mysterious children of the matrix effectively did was emulating mundane users, until they went through a couple of submersions. The problem is that 5th edition ended up at the opposite extreme: All the bread and butter stuff they used to be able to do without effort (emulating programs) is missing entirely.
So where previously we had mages who could only cast spells acting like firearms in every way until the initiated, now we have D&D mages who can't use ordinary weapons. Except that D&D mages don't kill themselves if they let off one or two spells, whereas for TMs the ridiculous fading DVs turn the thing they can do into an elaborate kind of suicide.

TL;DR
- Fix the fading
- Let them use/emulate programs
- Bring back Dronomancers

For things which go above fixing TMs, I'd like to see some kind of adult otaku, who can accept cyberware but in return get more restricted abilities -- or maybe a different set altogether, like adepts vs. mages. It might even save some old otaku from the treatment Puck and now Pax got, i.e. reintroduced as TMs but magically missing all their cyber and with a full Essence refill.

Oh, and while we are talking about otaku: Bring back Daemons, pretty please? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Smash]

Honestly, you have your work cut out for you. The technomancer fanbois won't accept anything that doesn't make the hacker totally redundant and it's not far off that now anyway.

Just make them go away. Crash 7.0 killed them all. yeah, that'll work!

No? Well I guess the only other option is to continue making them some kind of specialised entity. I'd keep the restrictions from other sources of magic or cyber but perhaps beef up the living persona.

Maybe they could manipulate non-wireless devices? That would be cool and would make wireless on/off less of an issue. Might as well have it on when half the threats out there can hack it anyway, and it would actually be explainable with 'Magic' which seems to be a major blocker for the simulationists accepting Deckers atm.

[Jaid]

Honestly, you have your work cut out for you. The technomancer fanbois won't accept anything that doesn't make the hacker totally redundant and it's not far off that now anyway.

Just make them go away. Crash 7.0 killed them all. yeah, that'll work!

No? Well I guess the only other option is to continue making them some kind of specialised entity. I'd keep the restrictions from other sources of magic or cyber but perhaps beef up the living persona.

Maybe they could manipulate non-wireless devices? That would be cool and would make wireless on/off less of an issue. Might as well have it on when half the threats out there can hack it anyway, and it would actually be explainable with 'Magic' which seems to be a major blocker for the simulationists accepting Deckers atm.

you clearly haven't looked at the TM rules lately.

technomancers are extremely far off of replacing *anything* in 5th edition. hell, the only build that is regarded as being reasonably playable basically has the technomancer replaced by a collection of sprites. you could literally have the TM sit at home and hand out sprite services to the team before the run, and not see much of a difference so long as you have a sufficiently large collection of registered sprites with lots of services. that's how relevant TMs are right now.

[hermit]

Oh, and while we are talking about otaku: Bring back Daemons, pretty please?

But don't try and make them more useful than agents (that is, useful at all), or you get another shitstorm about how op technos have become.

[Cochise]

Which I'd be okay with if it didn't violate the basic setting premise that technology is inherently incompatible with magic.

Yes, that is my main problem with that premise, too.

I can't quite subscribe to the claim that magic and technology are "inherently incompatible" - particularly not as a "basic setting premise". Certainly, they are at odds with each other in many cases and the latter can negatively impact the former while the former has a harder time of successfully affecting the latter but not to a degree that would warrant the "inherently incompatible" label. Fun fact: Magical effects, items and entities of higher levels are equally or more difficult to deal with when compared to technology since technology lacks the power to actually "resist" magic once sufficiently high powered magic is used against it.

So for me it boils down to this: Technomancers do possess some kind of supernatural power when compared to "mundane" humans. Though not easily, they even can be identified by "standard" magic users as to what they are (while interestingly enough the same cannot be said in reverse). Whether you want to call those powers (a kind of) "magic" or not is pretty much insubstantial to what they represent on the meta-physics level of the SR universe. I actually find it quite amusing that the developers even tried to use the "magic that is no magic" rationale in the first place.

[Sengir]

Though not easily, they even can be identified by "standard" magic users as to what they are

The same is true for metal bits in your bones, or the collection of STIs someone caught during his last trip to the barrens. That does not make either of those magical (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(while interestingly enough the same cannot be said in reverse).

Well, a hacker can simply get into your diary and find out your're awakened

[Cochise]

The same is true for metal bits in your bones, or the collection of STIs someone caught during his last trip to the barrens. That does not make either of those magical (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And which part of the sentence you quoted claimed that the possibility of successful identification is related to their (own) "magical" / "supernatural" nature?
*edit* To clarify: That particular sentence only referred to the fact that the supernatural state of technomancers does not exist "outside" the perception of the standard "magic" environment that "normal" magicians live in. If their supernatural state really was something "completely different" and "independent" on the metaphysics level, there's not much that would explain how that particular state would or should show up under the standard "magic" observation of astral perception / aura reading.

Well, a hacker can simply get into your diary and find out your're awakened

Good try, but "a hacker" isn't a technomancer and even a technomancer "hacking" into a diary would still be something different than a magician making direct use of one of his supernatural gifts to make the identification. They'd be on equal foot there only if a technomancer had some form of sensory detection mechanism that allowed him/her to (more or less instantly) identify a bypassing mage in the same manner as a mage can in reverse.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would not call requiring 5 Hits on an Assensing Roll an "instant identification."

In all the years we had a Technomancer in 4th Edition, almost no mages identified him as such. It was really, really rare for them to obtain the requisite 5 hits required to do so.

[Cochise]

I would not call requiring 5 Hits on an Assensing Roll an "instant identification."

And now you're deliberately ignoring context in order to (needlessly) nitpick.

Fact of the matter: It's tough (as I stated) before, but a skilled magician can do it pretty much instantly (just as I said as well) with one of his supernatural senses and the technomancer cannot do the same in reverse (again something I stated previously). My comment wasn't even making a judgement concerning that asymmetry or went into details concerning the difficulty. It merely stated that it exists and the label "tough" was telling enough.

In all the years we had a Technomancer in 4th Edition, almost no mages identified him as such. It was really, really rare for them to obtain the requisite 5 hits required to do so.

Which only means that the mages your character met weren't necessarily "built" around the idea of (very) strong aura reading skills and additionally the responsible GMs might have come to the quite valid conclusion that just because the rules state "5 hit required to identify" not all magicians who score those hits by miracle also have a clue what that actually means ... just as I as a GM never turned magicians into cybertech or medical experts without associated knowledge skills just because the assensing table told that at 4+ successes you can pretty much diagnose any medical condition or locate and identify implants.

But this has certainly derailed this thread now far enough. May I suggest that you let it rest from this point on?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But this has certainly derailed this thread now far enough. May I suggest that you let it rest from this point on?

Wow, I make a single comment on the "immediacy" of the ability to call out a Technomancer through Assensing and I am so totally derailing the thread that you suggest that I cease and desist from said comments? Amazing indeed... *shrug*

[Cochise]

Wow, I make a single comment on the "immediacy" of the ability to call out a Technomancer through Assensing and I am so totally derailing the thread that you suggest that I cease and desist from said comments? Amazing indeed... *shrug*

Final comment: You act as if you are the only thing that exists there ... once again deliberately ignoring context and a bit too full of yourself: Count the number of (consecutive) postings - including mine, hermit's, Sengir's, yours and others - that haven't actually dealt with what the OP's requested. Maybe then you get a clue as to why this has been enough of an derailment.

[Redjack]

And this is why we can't have nice things....

Please do not try to do the job of the forum staff. If you have an issue that you would like to see addressed, PM a moderator and we will take a look at the situation.

[Hibiki54]

Comparing a TM to a Decker aside, the biggest issue with a TM is Fading when using any sort of complex form. TMs are pretty much boned when doing any type of high level threading. They should have some Submergance powers similar to Metamagics like Centering that allows them to resist fading more efficiently. They should also have some complex forms similar to some magic counter parts that had a L-3 or L-6 code.

[Medicineman]

Guys , can we get back to Topic Please ?
I always compared a TM to a Decker like a Mystical Adept to a Streetsam.
The Streetsam or Decker is better, more impressive at the Start because they can get big Boosts to Attributes ,Ini and Skills with the Help of 'ware (Deck & Progs)
whereas the Mystical Adept ( TM) starts lower in Abilities but over the Time (and with lots of Karma ) they can become more Awesome, gain more and diverse Abilities ( the Myst Adept with initiation, the TM with Immersion)AND they can get Spirits (Sprites) to help them out.
At least that was my Impression in SR4A .
I would like to have the same Developement again in SR5.
I haven't played a TM in 5th ed, so I have no personal experience, but from what I read in the Forums, the TMs..... get the Short Stick now .
This might be OK, if they hav a chance to get more important Abilities / to become more versatile later on

with a Long Shot Dance
Medicineman

[KCKitsune]

Well. What I'd like to see is a definite call on the origins of technomancy. As is, there are two mutually exclusive concepts - "Matrix Magic" as per early SR4, which basically concludes technomancy is a form of magic... <i>snip</i>

But Technomancers are NOT using magic as their abilities work outside the manasphere. Also in areas of high background count it does jack squat. I thought to myself that this was true psionics (not the bovine excrement in Street Magic). Pure power of the mind over matter.

[hermit]

Precisely. Which is why I'd like to see a definite ruling here.

And no, please not as a new track of super-magic, complete with Whiter Men from Mars. SR2 was bad enough, no need to go down that rabbit hole again.

[Smash]

you clearly haven't looked at the TM rules lately.

technomancers are extremely far off of replacing *anything* in 5th edition. hell, the only build that is regarded as being reasonably playable basically has the technomancer replaced by a collection of sprites. you could literally have the TM sit at home and hand out sprite services to the team before the run, and not see much of a difference so long as you have a sufficiently large collection of registered sprites with lots of services. that's how relevant TMs are right now.

The thing is with that argument is that it's based on technomancers with zero karma. When you play one for a while you notice them getting significantly better because they can buy all those low level abilitys they had to skip at creation while everyone else is burning exponential karma raising a few 6s to 7s.

I accept that people want to be baddasses from the get-go but that's just not how TMs work and if that beef up the front end I'd really want to see the back end stripped away otherwise all you're doing is making deckers the role that nobody plays and they've already held that status since 2nd Ed.

[Abschalten]

The thing is with that argument is that it's based on technomancers with zero karma.

I think you could base your analysis on a technomancer with 100 or even 200 karma and the argument would still hold up fairly well.

[Ren]

Precisely. Which is why I'd like to see a definite ruling here.

And no, please not as a new track of super-magic, complete with Whiter Men from Mars. SR2 was bad enough, no need to go down that rabbit hole again.

I was actually thinking about Harlequin's cryptic Matrix conversations, which seemed to hint that the Matrix would be the key to dealing with the HorrorsEnemy and using that as a starting point for how to think of TMs fitting into Shadowrun's mythology. Not magic, because magic didn't very well help the last time around, did it?

Is that not an avenue I should pursue?

EDIT: Wanted to confirm that I am reading this thread and it's given a couple pretty good ideas! Thanks so far. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Abschalten]

I was actually thinking about Harlequin's cryptic Matrix conversations, which seemed to hint that the Matrix would be the key to dealing with the HorrorsEnemy and using that as a starting point for how to think of TMs fitting into Shadowrun's mythology. Not magic, because magic didn't very well help the last time around, did it?

Is that not an avenue I should pursue?

Eh, I've always thought Shadowrun was better off being distanced from the old Earthdawn tie-in stuff, since it naturally lead to Immortal Elf fanboi wankery and the like. Of course, SR5 is the Grognard Hard-on edition, so mine is probably the minority dissenting opinion on the matter.

In any event I'm having trouble seeing how technomantic powers would be key to dealing with the Horrors should they return (though it's entirely possible I just don't have the imagination to see it.) If this is the route you take, it will be interesting to see what you come up with.

As for other ideas and suggestions for TMs, I'm really not sure what I can give. I have no idea how much latitude you are going to be given with technomancers in terms of giving them new stuff and fixing what's broken. They really need an overhaul to put them on par with the other classes. The Echoes-via-submersion model as put forth doesn't work as the Echoes are just adept power analogs that are ridiculously overpriced. Complex Forms need their Fading brought down across the board. And basic things like PAN/WAN functionality needs to be given back to the TMs so they can have MEANINGFUL interactions with devices again.

Given that SR5 has been out two years without any patches to TM capabilities, I don't think the changes that they need will be permitted. I could be wrong. CGL might grant the leeway needed and you might write an excellent PDF. It could be so awesome that it could get me back into Shadowrun. I can only hope.

[Jaid]

I think you could base your analysis on a technomancer with 100 or even 200 karma and the argument would still hold up fairly well.

agreed (so long as you're comparing to a similarly advanced decker, that is; a 200 karma technomancer is probably going to be better than a 0 karma decker)

the thing is, the decker will be able to advance their skills, won't have to be a total liability outside of the matrix, and will still have all the same advantages held at zero karma. at 200 karma, the technomancer *still* won't be able to reconfigure their deck, will *still* take matrix damage on their own health instead of taking it to an easily repaired device, will *still* be dealing with extreme levels of fading, will still have to make a decision between augmentations and resonance, still won't have programs, and so forth.

you seem to think that 200 karma is going to make you into some sort of matrix god. it really isn't. the "low level abilities" (by which i presume you mean complex forms) still will not be that impressive, even if you do learn them all (frankly, i think there's really only maybe 3-4 that are even *worth* taking anyways), and their fading will still be absolutely brutal (i'm not sure just what you imagine having maybe +3 dice in your fading resistance pool is going to do for you, but it isn't going to make 7+ fading damage go down to zero).

and this even if we assume that it makes any sense at all to balance the game at a point where many people will not reach and leave it broken at a point where almost everyone is guaranteed to reach. how does that make sense?

[Ren]

Eh, I've always thought Shadowrun was better off being distanced from the old Earthdawn tie-in stuff, since it naturally lead to Immortal Elf fanboi wankery and the like. Of course, SR5 is the Grognard Hard-on edition, so mine is probably the minority dissenting opinion on the matter.

In any event I'm having trouble seeing how technomantic powers would be key to dealing with the Horrors should they return (though it's entirely possible I just don't have the imagination to see it.) If this is the route you take, it will be interesting to see what you come up with.

As for other ideas and suggestions for TMs, I'm really not sure what I can give. I have no idea how much latitude you are going to be given with technomancers in terms of giving them new stuff and fixing what's broken. They really need an overhaul to put them on par with the other classes. The Echoes-via-submersion model as put forth doesn't work as the Echoes are just adept power analogs that are ridiculously overpriced. Complex Forms need their Fading brought down across the board. And basic things like PAN/WAN functionality needs to be given back to the TMs so they can have MEANINGFUL interactions with devices again.

Given that SR5 has been out two years without any patches to TM capabilities, I don't think the changes that they need will be permitted. I could be wrong. CGL might grant the leeway needed and you might write an excellent PDF. It could be so awesome that it could get me back into Shadowrun. I can only hope.

I'm not saying I'd adhere to it like Gospel, just that as a starting point. "This weird internet stuff is something so new and different that it could be the key to whooping the horrors? What would that be like?" Big D thought it was a big deal too, remember how much he left to the study of Otaku? I would personally be happy if I never had to touch Harlequin or Dunkelzahn's will in the actual lore, though, tbh. Harlequin is...tricky to do right, to say the least, and I firmly believe the will was a list of plot coupons for GMs, not writers. But now I'm off topic.

Anything is on the table, but huge changes like how Echoes work would be presented as alternate rules; You can use them, and the book will support the SR5/Data Trails rules, but we also have this here if you want to try that.

I agree that two years without fixing Technomancers is a problem. It's actually why I signed on with Catalyst. To write this book and hopefully give them the awesomeness they deserve, without just escalating the Decker vs. TM playability war.

I wholeheartedly agree with Fading being too strong and PAN support. My SR game is testing some new ideas I had for rules to counter that without making Deckers redundant right now, actually.

[Abschalten]

I wholeheartedly agree with Fading being too strong and PAN support. My SR game is testing some new ideas I had for rules to counter that without making Deckers redundant right now, actually.

The thing is, deckers are never going to be redundant. What alot of handwringers and pro-decker diehards don't understand is that if you give both of them an equivalent pile of karma, deckers will grow their skills while technomancers will focus on submersions and their attributes. And while TMs have a karma bottleneck, deckers have a dual advancement track based on nuyen.

In SR4 and SR4A, all that would've been needed to balance long-term hackers vs. technomancers would've been to increase the skill cap to 12 and make hardware and software ratings go up to 12. A hacker would've devoted money into implants, hardware, and software while putting karma into his skills. Technomancers would've had to make hard choices about which skills to raise vs. their other needs.

So while technomancers are going to have all the neat tricks and help from sprites, hackers (or deckers) will have the raw skill and the high-end hardware/software to crush the opposition. Sure, you might have a Grade 2, Resonance 8 technomancer who has some neat echoes and whatnot. Meet a hacker who dumped every penny into his gear, and all his karma into his skills, and has support from implants that does not negatively impact his abilities -- quite the opposite.

What actually HURT deckers was the idiotic move back to old cyberdeck prices. I think if you chopped the last digit off of each of those deck prices you'd have something approaching reasonable, and they'd have much more parity and competitiveness with technomancers.

[Smash]

I wholeheartedly agree with Fading being too strong and PAN support. My SR game is testing some new ideas I had for rules to counter that without making Deckers redundant right now, actually.

I would argue that the point of comparison being shamans and magicians is unfair. If anything drain for traditional spellcasters is too soft and needs to be raised (particularly for area elemental spells). The argument that they should be balanced is valid, but reducing TM drain is the wrong way to do it.

[Ren]

I would argue that the point of comparison being shamans and magicians is unfair. If anything drain for traditional spellcasters is too soft and needs to be raised (particularly for area elemental spells). The argument that they should be balanced is valid, but reducing TM drain is the wrong way to do it.

I don't know a lot about magic but fading needs a nerf badly. I've heard countless stories of TMs dying in their first session from a bad biofeedback roll. You ever hear the one about the guy that faceplanted into a bowl of soup because he fried himself running a data search on Mr. Johnson? Hell, I came close to having that happen to my own character.

[hermit]

I was actually thinking about Harlequin's cryptic Matrix conversations, which seemed to hint that the Matrix would be the key to dealing with the HorrorsEnemy and using that as a starting point for how to think of TMs fitting into Shadowrun's mythology. Not magic, because magic didn't very well help the last time around, did it?

So ... the early SR4 "it's actually a weird form of pattern magic" track? Because that's what I took from that conversation (you're thinking about Alpha/Omega's in Target Matrix, right?).

Personally, I'd prefer something that ties in with the obvious Sprawl Trilogy inspiration from System Failure and late SR3. This would make Technomancers something basically mundane, more like modified humans than Awakened.

AI would also have to feature heavily in this, but to even guess at the feasibility of that line of thought I'd have to have read Data Trails entirely, and I'm not through yet. So maybe "it's a kind of magic (that is more awesome)" is the only way that's still possible.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think you could base your analysis on a technomancer with 100 or even 200 karma and the argument would still hold up fairly well.

The Technomancer I am playing is sitting at 159 Karma, and while she is better than when she started, she is still not where I would expect to see such a character at that level. It is a subjective thing, though, as everyone has different ideas on what makes a Technomancer ideal.

[KCKitsune]

Precisely. Which is why I'd like to see a definite ruling here.

And no, please not as a new track of super-magic, complete with Whiter Men from Mars. SR2 was bad enough, no need to go down that rabbit hole again.

Oh, no, no, no, I was NOT going down THAT path! I went through my cheesy Munchkin phase a long time ago. I'm sorry if you thought I wanted to turn TMs into ubermen.

I actually wrote up rules for Psionic abilities in Shadowrun, and they were more limited than Awakened. Sure they had some neat tricks, but nothing world shattering. Kinda like Technomancers.

In SR4, as you know, TM's when they had enough Karma, could become badass. I mean why would you need Wired Reflexes when you can get it for "free" with Echos? Just think about that Hermit, with nothing but the power of their minds, SR4 Technomancers could move as fast as a Street same who dumped at LEAST 100,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for Wired Reflexes 3 (that's the standard version, MUCH, MUCH, more for Alpha or better). That to me SCREAMS that Technomancers are Psionic.

[Abschalten]

The Technomancer I am playing is sitting at 159 Karma, and while she is better than when she started, she is still not where I would expect to see such a character at that level. It is a subjective thing, though, as everyone has different ideas on what makes a Technomancer ideal.

I think you misunderstand me. My position is even with a bunch of karma technomancers are underpowered and gimped. They never catch up to deckers except on timelines that involve more earned karma than most campaigns earn from start to finish.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think you misunderstand me. My position is even with a bunch of karma technomancers are underpowered and gimped. They never catch up to deckers except on timelines that involve more earned karma than most campaigns earn from start to finish.

No, You are right... I totally agree...

Equivalent Karma means that the Decker will likely be better until there are stupid levels of Karma involved. BUT, a deck only ever gets so good, and if the TM is willing to get 'ware he can eventually surpass the Decker. Takes stupid levels of Karma and Nuyen though. Some would say that makes them balanced. I would not be one of them, because many of the TM's abilities are just too onerous to use (Looking at Complex Forms and Echoes here).

[Sengir]

Anything is on the table, but huge changes like how Echoes work would be presented as alternate rules; You can use them, and the book will support the SR5/Data Trails rules, but we also have this here if you want to try that.

You can always follow the great tradition of reflex triggers: Don't rewrite the rules on how often pistols can fire, add a dirt cheap upgrade that allows them to fire twice per pass. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Good try, but "a hacker" isn't a technomancer

New SR5 terminology: Hacker is the overarching term for both deckers and TMs

[Abschalten]

... if the TM is willing to get 'ware he can eventually surpass the Decker. Takes stupid levels of Karma and Nuyen though...

If said amount of karma and/or nuyen is more than the vast majority of Shadowrun campaigns will ever see, then I think it's effectively a non-issue. The SR4 campaign I GM'd years ago hit 150 total karma earned after two years of playing (these were on the old karma payouts, pre-SR4A.) 150 karma is nothing to a technomancer. Karma evaporates like drops of water on a hot griddle iron. If after playing a character for two REAL LIFE years they cannot find parity in a role that another class can do better out of chargen, then they are not suited for that task. And operating inside the Matrix is supposed to be a technomancer's THING.

Personally, I'm down with allowing a technomancer to diversify out of just being a Matrix monkey. Unwired was letting them grow in other ways, giving them stuff to do besides being a God-level hacker. I think that was a fine approach, and should be taken further.

[hermit]

In SR4, as you know, TM's when they had enough Karma, could become badass. I mean why would you need Wired Reflexes when you can get it for "free" with Echos? Just think about that Hermit, with nothing but the power of their minds, SR4 Technomancers could move as fast as a Street same who dumped at LEAST 100,000 nuyen.gif for Wired Reflexes 3 (that's the standard version, MUCH, MUCH, more for Alpha or better). That to me SCREAMS that Technomancers are Psionic.

I know. My rants about this should still be archived here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) They were ... rather angry. To me it seemed like somebody had watched too much Matrix.

[Sengir]

Oh, no, no, no, I was NOT going down , SR4 Technomancers could move as fast as a Street same who dumped at LEAST 100,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for Wired Reflexes 3 .

Costing them 4 Echoes instead. Not exactly bargain bin

[KCKitsune]

Costing them 4 Echoes instead. Not exactly bargain bin

I know. That's why I put it as "free". But still, they can do it and it costs them no money and no Essence. As with anything in Shadowrun, you can do things in two or three different ways and none of them is so superior as to render the others worthless.

[BlackJaw]

1) Resonance Patches (or some other name): bits of resonance code that Technomancers can integrate into their Living Personas. They are similar to, but different than, cyberprograms. It costs a little bit of Karma to know a Patch, and you can only use a few at once (maybe echoes make it possible to use more). They do not require submersion to pickup. New Technomancer characters can have them. Look at the really important things that Cyberprograms do and make sure those are addressed.

2) One (probably popular) Resonance Patch should provide a way to reduce Fading. It might do this through reducing Fade values, by providing a bonus to resist fading, or through some other mechanics (like a pool of point that can be spent to reduce fade damage taken, but requires a rest to replenish). Depending on mechanics chosen, you could easily have two Patches here, one for Complex Forms, and one for Sprites. This would further develop the divide in specializations between Technomancers and "Technoshamans."

3) Maybe a complex form called "Overwrite Ownership." With it a Technomancer can temporarily make themselves the owner of a Device. While the Form is active, they become the device's owner, and can use it like any other device. When the form ends, it reverts back to its original owner. This setup prevents the Technomancer from transferring ownership while in charge, but it's also an ultimate hacker move, as ownership is more powerful than having three (illegal) marks on a device. Note, this form does not remove or change marks (including not putting marks on masters when used on slaves. Hell, it probably knocks things out of a WAN/PAN when active.) Note it doesn't work on Hosts. Note that it doesn't work on Personas (which means it doesn't work on Decks while a Hacker is using them or vehicles while a rigger is jumped into them.) For balance purposes, it might also automatically trigger an alert to the "real" owner when successfully cast on a target, so using this to get a locked door to open on a run will draw the Spider's attention. This is exactly the kind of crazy power that plays into the Corp narrative of technomancers being dangerous/criminals. It's a very potent ability, but it might put Technomancers back on the map for hacking... it makes them good at dealing with devices while Deckers are still better at deal with hosts. If the device is knocked off-line (reboots or is toggled to off-line mode) the complex form ends. I expect that it would carry a high Fade value compared to Puppeteer?
NOTE: As of Data Trails, ownership manipulation is now something AI characters can do (on limited targets) so an ability like this isn't completely nuts.

A more limited concept might be a complex form that scrambles ownership while active. Such a power would make the target device useless to it's owner while active.

4) Complex Forms that allow a Technomancer to enhance their own matrix traits (instead of the exiting ones that target other device they can't use for their Living Persona.) Possibly allow it to work on any living persona, and maybe even Sprites? This would be a big help to making Technomancers on par with Deck users.

4) I was disappointed to see Machine Sprites aren't any good at using devices. Their Diagnostic power is helpful for gaining limit and dice pool bonuses, but they have no skills or powers associated with controlling vehicles or using gunnery. How about a new Sprite that's more useful at operating vehicles and drones? Drone Sprite, or Pilot Sprite, or Rigger Sprite, or Jacker Sprite?

5) Clarification on how a Technomancer can gain a Direct Connection to a device, one of the key ways a Shadowrun hacker gains access to host systems. Yes, Data Trails gives technomancers the Touch-Link echo now, but that still requires subversion first. Can a Technomancer use trodes/data jack with their living persona to get a direct link?

6) Linked to #5, consider a Complex Form that allows a Technomancer to enter a Host system. It doesn't provide a Mark, making the technomancer stand out as not where they belong to anyone that inspects them (IC or Spiders) but it also doesn't risk alarm. You're either in or your not, and you take fading either way.

7) Maybe I missed this in Data Trails, but an Echo, "Patch" (see #1), or Complex Form (or multiple) that provides RCC abilities for a technomancer. Specifically the ability to control and rapidly jump through drones, and the ability to share Autosofts. Rapid jumping/control might be a patch, but the autosoft thing might need to be an Echo similar to the Echo ability to use Skillsofts.

[Ultra Violet]

Many thing were said, most of the old stuff are missing right now! And THAT is unacceptable, and the rules are buggy as well!

The main problem I see is the Databomb! Databombs are an instant killer of all Technomancers, they do way to much damage, and the only trick in SR4A to survive a databomb explosion was the Cascarde power... that option do not exist anymore, and it was a f**k-up move!
A better solution is needed, really bad! Some sort of anti-databomb-form or -echo. Maybe an option to get a Matrix Condition Monitor for them or reducing the Damage of the databomb. Mainly a sentence like: "Matrix Damage do not overflow, if the Stun Damage Track is filled, the TM will be unconscious and kicked out off the Matrix (Dumpshock included)." If you think that is not a problem, make a test run and try to defend against a databomb (a Rating 2 databomb can make 12 DV, a Rating 6 form 6 to 36 DV, it is seriously to f**king much!)

The second thing I recognized was, there is no mentioning of the effect of spellcasting attribute spells on TMs, in previous Editions there was a sentence along with it. Why is that, why is it gone?

The next thing, since TM have to cast ever complex form every time, we need something like foci to ease their pain...
I don't know if the designer/authors of that idea really thought through, but TMs aren't Magicians and they need their complex forms far more often than Magicians need their spells casted. It is like a magican is always casting a couple of spells and every damage they get is stun... but for magic characters there are many ways to deal with drain... for TM there isn't...

Greetings
UV

[nylanfs]

So don't open anything suspicious without thoroughly checking it out maybe?

[rumanchu]

I've been thinking this whole topic over while trying to read through Data Trails (there never seems to be enough time), and the biggest things that annoy me with my TM character aren't necessarily things that can easily be fixed based on how intractable the devs have been so far on reducing Fading costs. If we're to be expected to accept that the original Fading values for Forms are never going to change, then maybe give me a in-world *reason* why it's so damn hard for TMs to actually influence the Matrix now. This may be a tall order (considering that the whole Foundation bit seems to imply that the Resonance is involved somewhere in the underlying programming of the new Matrix), but even something like a page or two going on about how the Corps responded to the "public concerns" about the "technomancer threat" and researched (unspoken: through capture/torture of TMs) ways to ensure that the "new" Matrix would be 99.99% Technomancer-Free™. Heck, that even leaves an opening for making "new" Forms with lower Fading values by way of saying that TMs have spent their time since Matrix 3: Electric Bumblebee came out trying to find ways to work around what GOD and the Corps did to lock them out. It could be like that cool "new" Echo MMRI ("all the functionality of Mind over Machine, with none of the ambiguity!").

Maybe a Form that allows you to make a test against the Device Rating of something, with the net hits being the number of Marks that you can be assumed to have for non-Attack tests against that target as long as you sustain it (or even a one-shot deal). There could even be something where if you get a ridiculous number of hits or the target glitches that you are considered the owner for a short while (not long enough to transfer ownership).

There needs to be some sort of Centering equivalent for TMs, though preferably not an Echo (since Echoes are a pretty limited resource considering how many quality-of-life functions end up as Echoes). Maybe an advanced Sprite power or something.

One big gripe that I have with Data Trails is the inclusion of the Multidimensional Coprocessor. Say what you will about the inability of TMs to get any sort of Initiative boosts without risking their Resonance (yeah, yeah, Lightning Reflexes), at least I knew that only my Submerged TM was getting to add FIVE dice to his initiative roll (when in VR) while even the chromest of the chrome was limited to four. PSYCH! It cost *me* 13+ Karma to get that fifth die, but Johnny Decker just needed 1400 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and a call to a semi-competent fixer. (Not sure what you can do to offset that; maybe just bake it into Submersion as a benefit or something).

In the end, I just want Technomancers to feel like a character that I don't need to wait until I've spent 150+ Karma to be semi-decent when I'm pushing the limit using Edge compared to a brand-new Decker. (This may be oversimplifying it a bit, but you get the point).

[SpellBinder]

...

In the end, I just want Technomancers to feel like a character that I don't need to wait until I've spent 150+ Karma to be semi-decent when I'm pushing the limit using Edge compared to a brand-new Decker. (This may be oversimplifying it a bit, but you get the point).

Sounds like an example of success for the higher ups against the "overpowered" technomancer threat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[rumanchu]

Sounds like an example of success for the higher ups against the "overpowered" technomancer threat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Don't get me wrong, I believe that TMs deserved to be knocked down a peg or two in this edition, but nowhere near the level of degradation that they ended up being subjected to

[SpellBinder]

Don't get me wrong, I believe that TMs deserved to be knocked down a peg or two in this edition, but nowhere near the level of degradation that they ended up being subjected to

Not at all, though I do agree with you to some extent as well.

[Shadowrenamon]

I agree with most of the posts on how Technomancers need to have some way for them to be strong enough to be viable at character creation outside of just being a Digimon tamer. The easiest way would most likely be a good selection of TM specific qualities, both positive and negative, that help them out, especially stuff that makes drain resist a bit easier so that maxed out Will and even RES aren't such a must if you want to do more than one complex form a fight. Right now I think sprites are probably fine, though one or two that work well with drones would be cool to make the droneomancer more viable from the start, then able to get stronger with echos that already exist. Another thing I have kind of a problem with, and something I have a problem with in any rules system, is how ambiguous some of their abilities are, and not just in the fluff which is fine, but like Resonance Veil; that power gives literally no concrete rule on what it does, just that it does "something" which leaves it to GMs for it to either be busted as hell or totally worthless. Since it says illusion in the description then it's possible to take it that whatever is thought to be happening doesn't actually happen, but that still leaves out what it does; what has happened in the matrix? Can it replicate matrix actions, or does it just look like something is happening. Right now I'm running it in my game under the assumption if it goes through, then the device believes say you have your mark on it or it on you, that kind of stuff, but it's still somewhat oddly worded.

Something I actually just thought of while looking up Resonance Veil and seeing Tattletale, which isn't all that useful, would maybe be an upgraded version that maybe requires submergence to do, is one that lets the TM give someone an OS when they otherwise wouldn't; obviously not a host, but like giving the security spider or a g-man an OS then forcing convergence on them would be a neat, subversive kind of ability for them, and would make OS more relevant to the players as something other than a thing they don't want, and know most opponents won't ever have to worry about depending on the game.

[Not of this Worl...]

What I'm looking for is all the feedback and suggestions you have on Technomancers. Positive, negative, neutral, personal attacks on devs and their writing, whatever you want. Maybe not that last one, but you get the idea. Tell me what works, what doesn't, what you miss, what you want gone, and I'll go through all of this and keep it in mind as I'm developing this book.

As a GM who liked Otaku in 3rd but my players ahardly touch TMs in 5th i have a couple easy ones.

1st more Techno and less Mancy. They are too magical and do not exhibit enough technological ffluff. There should be mystery for sure, butinstead its more every day technosorcery.

2nd TMs need to clearly excel at something and also clearly be wimps at something. 3rd editionn Otaku had a nice boost to metal attributes and penalty to physical ones. they shied away from all thing physcal but excelled at the Matrix. TMs are too similar in power and ability to Deckers. Please increase the contrasts.

That is it. stick with those two general principles and they could be a lot more fun to have in a group at the play table.

[Bertramn]

As a GM who liked Otaku in 3rd but my players ahardly touch TMs in 5th i have a couple easy ones.

1st more Techno and less Mancy. They are too magical and do not exhibit enough technological ffluff. There should be mystery for sure, butinstead its more every day technosorcery.

2nd TMs need to clearly excel at something and also clearly be wimps at something. 3rd editionn Otaku had a nice boost to metal attributes and penalty to physical ones. they shied away from all thing physcal but excelled at the Matrix. TMs are too similar in power and ability to Deckers. Please increase the contrasts.

That is it. stick with those two general principles and they could be a lot more fun to have in a group at the play table.

I agree wholeheartedly.

About the origin of Technomancers I am not too sure. There is not really one way of explaining them that I prefer,
I guess it would be best to keep their origin, and how their abilities work, mysterious still.
It just leaves more to the imagination of the players and GMs. Mystery has been lacking a little in Shadowrun for a while.

If we go along the similar relation between a Sammy and an Adept, a Technomancer should have a lot of abilities which a Decker CANNOT have.
This could be reasoned in the Matrix systems not knowing how to react to TMs, giving them unique approaches to many situations.
Having their abilities just be copies/equivalents of the abilities and possibilities of Deckers is boring imho.

[Draco18s]

So. I realized something over the weekend, thinking about game mechanics, particularly those related to stealth games.
Part of this relates back to Cogmind and some of the blog entries talking about information warfare and stealth.

And I finally made the connection:

A hacker being able to load up every program and hit the matrix with whatever he will and might need means that he makes no decisions about how to approach attacking a target: Stealthed until seen, then attacking whatever spots you, remaining behind stealth. Repeat.

So we have the following meta:
1) Stealth to the max, all the time, every time
2) Exploit to the max, all the time, every time
3) Spoof, edit, data search, analyze, etc. decent
4) Attack, armor, data bomb, etc. ignored (but still present; e.g. rating 3ish)

You end up with this. That is: You have all of the stealth capabilities of a ninja, all of the defensive abilities of a brick wall, and all of the offensive capabilities of a nuke (where money can be afforded) without any downsides (mechanics not withstanding: just because the roll came out bad doesn't mean you were weak: you were still tromping around with Rating 8 programs).

And I know I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but...

Bring back program limits. If a hacker can only have so many loaded programs at once, and can switch between program loadouts with a complex? action ("Shit I was spotted, drop stealth and bring weapons and shields online!") then there's an opportunity for a Technomancer's threading ability to shine: He always has every possible action at his finger tips ready to go...but he can only do one at a time (with complex forms being the "active set" of tools he always has available). It lets the TM get spotted through his Stealth, take a shot at the IC, and "dive for cover" while he reconfigures his active set. The Hacker can't take that pot-shot, but will have more options available to switch to.

Fading also needs to change. I'd personally put it as some future penalty, e.g. "You get the complex form now, but in 5 minutes you take 2 stun" kind of thing instead of an immediate penalty. More like adrenaline pumps, mechanically, than spells. Spell drain is clearly intended for "small benefits all day, orbial nukes once...at a cost" while Threading feels like something that needs to happen frequently, but not all the time. More like a "get out of jail free" card: spend it now, take a penalty later. And the more you spend, the bigger and sooner those penalties come, so you'd best get going while the going's easy.

(Also the biofeedback nature of matrix damage on the TM is bollocks. Hackers get programs and a buffer and a program to heal that damage, Technos take it immediately, don't get the "biofeedback resitance" roll on it,* and it hurts their meat parts).

*Nope sorry, that's only on actual biofeedback. From Black IC. The special attack. Matrix damage that hurts your meatbrain doesn't count!

[Sendaz]

And I know I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but...

Bring back program limits. If a hacker can only have so many loaded programs at once, and can switch between program loadouts with a complex? action ("Shit I was spotted, drop stealth and bring weapons and shields online!") then there's an opportunity for a Technomancer's threading ability to shine: He always has every possible action at his finger tips ready to go...but he can only do one at a time (with complex forms being the "active set" of tools he always has available). It lets the TM get spotted through his Stealth, take a shot at the IC, and "dive for cover" while he reconfigures his active set. The Hacker can't take that pot-shot, but will have more options available to switch to.

It is a valid idea, making them change load outs is half the fun.

Fading also needs to change. I'd personally put it as some future penalty, e.g. "You get the complex form now, but in 5 minutes you take 2 stun" kind of thing instead of an immediate penalty. More like adrenaline pumps, mechanically, than spells. Spell drain is clearly intended for "small benefits all day, orbial nukes once...at a cost" while Threading feels like something that needs to happen frequently, but not all the time. More like a "get out of jail free" card: spend it now, take a penalty later. And the more you spend, the bigger and sooner those penalties come, so you'd best get going while the going's easy.

(Also the biofeedback nature of matrix damage on the TM is bollocks. Hackers get programs and a buffer and a program to heal that damage, Technos take it immediately, don't get the "biofeedback resitance" roll on it,* and it hurts their meat parts).

*Nope sorry, that's only on actual biofeedback. From Black IC. The special attack. Matrix damage that hurts your meatbrain doesn't count!

Fading does need tweaking, but was more thinking about adjusting the amount of damage versus delaying it, maybe knocking a few points off drain values.

However, we could lift a page from how when you perform an Attack or Sleaze action your OS increases by the number of hits, so that a TM facing Fading still resists with WIL + RES but would not take actual damage, rather increases OS by the final amount taken?
Again this would only apply to Fading. Dumpshock/biofeedback and such still do their usual bit to the body.
Am sure someone could spin a tale of how when they draw on connection to the Matrix ripples it also leaves ripples that GOD and Co. eventually pick up on....

Get in a big fight with both attacks and fading bouncing up the OS, one could get kicked out at an inopportune time.

This would give your TM a bit bigger 'drain pool' to work from though one would have to consider a few other points one of them being whether to allow Cleaner to work on OS generated by Fading or not, as their magical counterparts can not normally heal Drain via magic.
likewise the issue of sprites since there is stun vs physical fading depending on level....maybe Fading as OS normal for Res and under, if Sprite is over your RES its double the Fading based OS generated.

So it is not perfect by any stretch, but might serve as a base idea to toy with.

[Shadowrenamon]

Fading does need tweaking, but was more thinking about adjusting the amount of damage versus delaying it, maybe knocking a few points off drain values.

However, we could lift a page from how when you perform an Attack or Sleaze action your OS increases by the number of hits, so that a TM facing Fading still resists with WIL + RES but would not take actual damage, rather increases OS by the final amount taken?
Again this would only apply to Fading. Dumpshock/biofeedback and such still do their usual bit to the body.
Am sure someone could spin a tale of how when they draw on connection to the Matrix ripples it also leaves ripples that GOD and Co. eventually pick up on....

Get in a big fight with both attacks and fading bouncing up the OS, one could get kicked out at an inopportune time.

This would give your TM a bit bigger 'drain pool' to work from though one would have to consider a few other points one of them being whether to allow Cleaner to work on OS generated by Fading or not, as their magical counterparts can not normally heal Drain via magic.
So it is not perfect but might serve as a base idea to toy with.

I'd say making Fade into your OS would take away another niche that TMs fill, and remove some of their flavor in the process. Right now the big mechanical benefit to a lot of what TMs do outside of traditional hacking is that it doesn't raise their OS, and as long as they don't perform illegal Matrix actions, can more or less use CFs and sprites as they wish, and then Static Veil themselves when they have to start hacking. The other problem there is that say Fade is now an OS thing, and especially if Cleaner wouldn't affect these points, the only way to remove them is to reboot your living persona. And while a decker might have the ware and extra skills to handle a fight in meat space, a TM relies on that matrix connection to be effective, and can't really take ware to compensate for their low physical stats, leaving you with a wimpy bit of dead weight until they can boot back up again. I feel the best way to fix Fade is to give options at both character creation in the form of qualities, and later on as echos, that can either increase your dice, or lessen what damage you do take, along with any new complex forms having much more reasonable Fade values.

[Draco18s]

Fading does need tweaking, but was more thinking about adjusting the amount of damage versus delaying it, maybe knocking a few points off drain values.

Oh, the amount of damage needs to come down too, don't get me wrong.

[Sendaz]

I'd say making Fade into your OS would take away another niche that TMs fill, and remove some of their flavor in the process. Right now the big mechanical benefit to a lot of what TMs do outside of traditional hacking is that it doesn't raise their OS, and as long as they don't perform illegal Matrix actions, can more or less use CFs and sprites as they wish, and then Static Veil themselves when they have to start hacking. The other problem there is that say Fade is now an OS thing, and especially if Cleaner wouldn't affect these points, the only way to remove them is to reboot your living persona. And while a decker might have the ware and extra skills to handle a fight in meat space, a TM relies on that matrix connection to be effective, and can't really take ware to compensate for their low physical stats, leaving you with a wimpy bit of dead weight until they can boot back up again. I feel the best way to fix Fade is to give options at both character creation in the form of qualities, and later on as echos, that can either increase your dice, or lessen what damage you do take, along with any new complex forms having much more reasonable Fade values.

I agree as I first said they need ways to bring the damage down in the first place.

The Fading to OS option was just an alternate idea if they were not going that route and like you pointed out has a number of problems of it's own.

[Shadowrenamon]

I agree as I first said they need ways to bring the damage down in the first place.

The Fading to OS option was just an alternate idea if they were not going that route and like you pointed out has a number of problems of it's own.

Indeed, just a critique of my own there. We at least agree Fade values suck right now.

[Smash]

Indeed, just a critique of my own there. We at least agree Fade values suck right now.

Do they suck though because they actually have consequence? When compared to magicians that's definately the case. Right now most starting magicians can cast force 6-8 fireballs all day just about. To me this is the problem, not technomancers.

If I was going to play with the system I'd probably up all spells drains by about 2 and perhaps make technomancer abilities slightly less punishing and maybe slightly more effective.

[Shadowrenamon]

Do they suck though because they actually have consequence? When compared to magicians that's definately the case. Right now most starting magicians can cast force 6-8 fireballs all day just about. To me this is the problem, not technomancers.

If I was going to play with the system I'd probably up all spells drains by about 2 and perhaps make technomancer abilities slightly less punishing and maybe slightly more effective.

Is there a reason why a mage shouldn't be able to throw fireballs like that? Because if so, then why not just play a gun bunny or a street sam, cause until you run into a spirit then you'll be took week as a mage to really do much then with those spells because you'll be destroying yourself almost every round for maybe the same amount of damage. Fade values don't suck because they have consequences, they suck because it heavily penalizes you for try to do the unique thing that archetype is supposed to be able to do, and instead would have to fall back on doing the same things a decker does, but that they will be actively worse at because they don't have the same versatility and buffs to those things that a decker does. So yes, Fade values need to come down or have a good way to increase your defenses against other than buying more Willpower or Resonance. It doesn't mean that using them shouldn't have a risk or consequence, but that right now the risk is almost not worth doing more than once, maybe twice if you're lucky.

[Jaid]

note that the only part of the technomancer's toolbox that is considered even remotely viable (ie spamming sprites all over the place) is the one part that doesn't have fading values ~4 points higher than spellcasting values. and even when you focus hard on that thing, the technomancer is still not remotely as powerful as a mage.

never mind that the mage also has tools to be useful in meatspace, and contrary to what the devs believe, forcing gear to be on the matrix for no clear reason does not give the technomancer (or the hacker) a useful way to constribute in meatspace (on the other hand, all the other things that already were on the matrix could be worthwhile... i could care less if the hacker takes out some chump security guard's goggles. i want the bloody door that's keeping me from getting away from those security guards, and more importantly the HTR team that is on its way, to be open).

[Blade]

I think that what's really important to consider is the basic question:

- Does the game need Technomancers?
or, assuming you can't answer "no"
- What do Technomancers bring to the game?

Once you've answered this question, you should be able to get an idea of what they should be able to do, or not, and maybe how.

To me, Technomancers add a nice fluff layer, allowing the Matrix to be a stranger world. But if it's just it, then they should just follow decker's rules, with a few changes for the sake of fluff, the way Shamanist use Hermetist rules with a few changes for the sake of fluff. Maybe a better comparison would be adepts to streetsam: same combat rules, similar perks, just a different way to access and improve them.

Another thing I could see technomancer add is a "easier" way for players who want to do things in the Matrix but are put off by the whole technical aspect. In that case, Technomancers could be a "lite" version of the decker. They can do stuff in the Matrix, but don't have to worry about programs, hardware and all technical details. In SR4 terms (I don't know SR5 enough to judge), that would mean replacing all the concepts of programs/matrix actions/etc. with a set of "spells" similar to mage spells with simple and specific effects "Crash", "Prevent alarms", "Confuse people", "Intercept comms", etc.

[Abschalten]

... that would mean replacing all the concepts of programs/matrix actions/etc. with a set of "spells" similar to mage spells with simple and specific effects "Crash", "Prevent alarms", "Confuse people", "Intercept comms", etc.

This idea doesn't work very well in practice, at least not in SR4. The sheer number of dice rolls you make in any Shadowrun subsystem in the game's history is staggering. Even if Fading values for these "spells" were relatively low, the law of averages would catch up with you in no time as you are constantly making Fading rolls. Spending a half an hour in the library public host looking for books and doing research might be enough to lay you out for a day. Add on top of that the cumbersome nature of effectively doubling the number of rolls needed to perform anything (which already is a problem for technomancers in SR4) and you're looking at an approach that frankly isn't very fun.

[Blade]

@Abschalten: You'd obviously need to cut on the dice rolls (and it is generally speaking something that should be applied to many areas of Shadowrun, especially the Matrix). The idea is not that the TM would cast "spells" for all Matrix actions, but that the TM would have access to "spells" that would abstract all the hacking parts.

Doing the research in the public library would just require casting one "Datamining" techno-spell. In my examples, "prevent alarms" would be a sustained spell that would apply on all system near the TM (in the physical world if in AR or in the Matrix if in VR), no worries about accessing nodes, using exploit, deleting logs, etc.

[Draco18s]

Hacker needs fewer rolls as well. If a mage can open a blocked door with one spell, maybe two (Shape [Material]), the street sam can do it in one or two shots from a shotgun (with breeching ammo) why does it take two hundred and forty-seven for a hacker? Brute force entry into the system, avoid IC, search the network for the right node, spoof some commands/whatever, get spotted, fight some IC, log out...

This should have become painfully obvious when they did that short little piece for SR4A showing a hacker taking control of a drone, narrating it in-character and showing the rolls ooc. Took six god damn pages and they stopped giving a shit around page 4 and just fudged it so they could be done with the stupid exercise.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well...
Blowing a hole in a door takes a second or two...
Picking the lock and disabling the alarm on that same door could take upwards of minutes.

Hacking falls somewhere in between. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And btw... why are you Brute Forcing the system? Many of the rolls you take after that are because you did just that. With a Sleaze, you don't need to avoid the IC immediately, you search the network (1 Action - which potentially nets you the door and the AID of the Spider on the system; 1 question per net on the Perception test), and then you spoof the device (1 Action) and done. You MAY need to avoid the Spider after the fact, but that is not a forgone conclusion. Hide after the Spoof and continue to ride the network.

[Draco18s]

And btw... why are you Brute Forcing the system? Many of the rolls you take after that are because you did just that.

Because probing the target takes hours?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because probing the target takes hours?

Not in 5th Edition it doesn't. And we ARE discussing 5th Edition.
In 4th Edition, if you had not probed the target and provided yourself a backdoor for when the run was live (which can be accomplished with just a few rolls that take up almost no time at all), then you were doing it wrong (or at least inefficiently). And yes, sometimes that is not possible, which is why you then use social engineering or a good thuggin' to get on the network a different way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Not in 5th Edition it doesn't. And we ARE discussing 5th Edition.

Touche. But keep in mind I haven't touched 5th except with an 11 foot pole.
The point still stands that if a hacker can't do a simple task in less than 8 rolls, then the rules are wrong. (And 8 is pushing it, the ideal is 2).

[Sandorian]

Hello everybody.

On the german board I postet the concept of creating gadgets: Personalized gear for Technomancers to give them something they can spend their nuyen for and improve their stats (but don't get overpowered). Maybe you can find something useful.

The central ideas are:
- Gadgets are physical objects made of electronic components, which deliver an anchor for a quite unstable resonance-construct.
- Gadgets must be constructed by the Technomancer who wants to use it, using his hardware and software-skill (and facing fade).
- Like Foki they have to be activated to work.
- Unlike Foki you don't have to spend Karma on them.
- Gadgets an quite instable so there is a chance of breaking the Gadget when activating it.
- Gadgets appear as icons slaved to the living persona and can be attacked in matrix combat (if they get hit, they are deactivated an need some time to recover.)
- The Number of Gadgets you can bind to your persona is limited: Similar to adepts a technomancer gets an amount of synchronization-points (SP) equal to his resonance.
- Each Gadget needs some SP to be synchronized with the living persona.
- Nuyen an SP costs are different for each gadget. Some Gadgets have levels to increase the effect, but this also increases the amount of nuyen an SP you have to pay for. If not limited by the gadget itself the max. level for a gadget is 1+Submersion grade.
- The number of active gadgets you can obtain is equal to [Resonance]/2.
- If a gadget is destroyed (by an enemy or yourself) you get the SP back, the nuyen are lost.

Gadget example:

Adapter
0,25 SP per level
500 ¥ per level
Allows the technomancer to act as master to a number of devices not higher then level x5 or [Resonance] x3.


The whole text can be found here (because I'm not used to write in english ;-D ):
http://www.foren.pegasus.de/foren/topic/24...r-technomancer/

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Maybe they could be called, I don't know, "Widgets," or something like that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sandorian]

The idea is similar to Widgets. The difference is that they are physical devices you can craft one day and use it later. Also I created some new effects different to the SR4a Widgets.

The ingame backround is that the new protocols prevent technomancers from using widgets so that they developed gadgets.

[Jaid]

i'd prefer if the gadget had a chance of failing after a certain length of use (or when deactivated but have activation last only a limited time) rather than when you turn it on. breaking when you try to activate it makes them too unreliable. you should be able to use them at least once, imo.

[Draco18s]

i'd prefer if the gadget had a chance of failing after a certain length of use (or when deactivated but have activation last only a limited time) rather than when you turn it on. breaking when you try to activate it makes them too unreliable. you should be able to use them at least once, imo.

The "curses" for magic items from (new) World of Darkness are a good place to look for stuff like this.

I think the "it breaks" one is more along the lines of "using while spending Edge" with the check made as you activate it, but it fails after you get the benefit. Also, the odds of it breaking goes up every time you make the check.

[Jaid]

ah, well, so long as it works at least once, that's fine.

[Draco18s]

Ah, I was wrong; had to locate the right book and then the right passage, took me a bit (which included running to the store for milk and bread).

It's when the item is used and the user fails their task does the "Mortality" pool increases. The mortality is rolled before (a success means the item takes 1 damage) and the item is used normally (unless it is completely destroyed, and repairs are allowed). So yeah, you still get several uses out of it, even if you're unlucky.

[artent]

Steal the rules for FOCI from the magic section and make Technomancer versions to give them an overall power boost. Steal the rules for Physads to give TM's more overall power.

Have TM's have at least 3 potential paths of power
1-sprite herder
2-mage(using complex forms almost exclusively to do things deckers CANNOT do while avoiding GOD)
3-being 1 trick ponies that are better than deckers at 1-2 tasks but worse at all the rest


echos that allow TM's to provide matrix overwatch

LOOT the Adepts Ways from the magic book, make sure that a rigging build is possible out of chargen.


general notes:
CLEARLY separate fluff from game rules. Have all the fluff you want about whatever, but clearly label EXACTLY what everything does, don't be vague about any game effect. Be vague about origins, and how it works but not what it does.

Include examples of play. You may think your explanations are clear cut, they are not, include examples.

Make sure everything DOES something. There are a ton of qualities that DON'T DO ANYTHING. Like those qualities that give you like +1 die on athletics test made to swim...which cost the same as +1 rank of athletics.

[Draco18s]

Make sure everything DOES something. There are a ton of qualities that DON'T DO ANYTHING. Like those qualities that give you like +1 die on athletics test made to swim...which cost the same as +1 rank of athletics.

Reminds me of a Pathfinder thread for finding the worst feat.
The one they came up with was Caustic Slur. As a free action, you taunt one of your foes. Mechanical benefit, said foe gains the benefits of the Power Attack feat on his next attack if he targets you.
That quality would fit right into that thread, heh.

[Blade]

Re-reading my home-made SR system, I've been reminded of this concept I've created for Technomancers that you might be interested in: the resonance field.

The concept is that TM generate some kind of Resonance field that surrounds them and affect the Matrix in their (physical or matrix when in full VR) area. The TM player can decide on one effect he wants this field to have. It's a generic concept like "we're not here", "we're the cleaning team", "what are people saying?" that will affect all Matrix nodes in the area. For example, if the TM pretends that the team is a security team, all cameras around them will see them as a cleaning team and the SIN readers will report that they're the cleaning team.

The resolution mechanics in my rules is pretty different, so I can't be very precise in the system behind it but the field should get a rating depending on a roll or something, and this rating will be the maximum rating of the nodes that will be fooled by the field. Maintaining the field gives negative modifiers similar to maintaining spells.

I think that this ability goes quite well with the "instinctive" aspect of the TM use of the Matrix, as well as with the concept of Resonance, and it's also a good solution for players who play TM because they want to do stuff in the Matrix but are scared by complex rules and gear requirements.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that this ability goes quite well with the "instinctive" aspect of the TM use of the Matrix, as well as with the concept of Resonance, and it's also a good solution for players who play TM because they want to do stuff in the Matrix but are scared by ... gear requirements.

The nice thing about a Technomancer is that they really do not need any Matrix Gear. Yes, they will likely get a comlink just to blend, but other than that, the Resonance Node handles it all.

[Draco18s]

For example, if the TM pretends that the team is a security team, all cameras around them will see them as a cleaning team and the SIN readers will report that they're the cleaning team.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

That is because the Security team is posing as a Cleaning team to look innocuous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

That is because the Security team is posing as a Cleaning team to look innocuous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Maybe they're just doing a clean scrub of the facility.

[Blade]

Oops, looks like I've mixed up two examples.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein: That's my point exactly. I think that many players who play TM do so because they want to do stuff in the Matrix without having to bother with all the gear requirements and all the technical complexity of ha/deckers (which - on the other hand - is something that some ha/decker players truly enjoy). Hence the concept of having TM use lighter rules that are easier to grasp and use.

[Draco18s]

I think that many players who play TM do so because they want to do stuff in the Matrix without having to bother with all the gear requirements and all the technical complexity of ha/deckers (which - on the other hand - is something that some ha/decker players truly enjoy). Hence the concept of having TM use lighter rules that are easier to grasp and use.

That's a very interesting way of going about it. I like the S.E.P. Field Effect, it fits right in with the mental perception I have of Technos.
I commend you for coming up with some mechanics that make it work.

[Sendaz]

It does sound interesting and worth taking a look at.