Hi!

So my next project with Catalyst, don't expect to see it anytime soon, but it's going to be an oversized PDF supplement entirely for Technomancers. I'm doing it with Dylan Stangel, the guy that wrote the TM rules in Data Trails, so don't worry, it's not "Oh god, they're letting the new girl go nuts, we're doomed." As an additional measure, this thread exists. I don't want it to just be my and his perspective. Expect to see one like it on the official forums too.

What I'm looking for is all the feedback and suggestions you have on Technomancers. Positive, negative, neutral, personal attacks on devs and their writing, whatever you want. Maybe not that last one, but you get the idea. Tell me what works, what doesn't, what you miss, what you want gone, and I'll go through all of this and keep it in mind as I'm developing this book.

I'm not gonna make any promises that every single idea will be incorporated, but I'll read this regularly and keep as much in mind as possible. It would help if you explained why you want this or that, so that I get where you're coming from.

It wouldn't bother me if technomancers weren't a thing anymore.

And you should feel free to go nuts.

In all honesty, Paragons, Streams, and some of the old echos (like Mesh Reality) I'd like to see official for SR5. There's more that I'd like, but I think that ship sailed, wrecked, burned, and sank during alpha testing of SR5's core.

Something I don't miss, and I feel should be left dead, extinct, and retconned into never having existed: technocritters.

general consensus from what i've seen: technomancers are a more expensive method of accomplishing the same goal less effectively than can be accomplished with a decker.

there is opportunity cost in that you pay extra for resonance, and require more skills to be a technomancer. but you can't reconfigure your deck, and can't run programs (which are awesome), and your living person stats are generally not as good in the first place as can be gained from decking even if you couldn't swap them out. damage taken to your living person applies a penalty to your dice pools immediately (as well as to your physical actions, since you've taken real damage), while damage to your deck can be repaired cheaply with a few minutes downtime and does not harm your physical actions in any way. plus, you can upgrade through two different resources (nuyen for better deck, programs, and 'ware, karma for skills) as a decker, while technomancers can only do anything remotely similar if they lose resonance.


there is a cost in that you almost never can get enough resources to cover for your generally poor attributes in the physical world with 'ware, even if you ignore the fact that resonance is tied to essence. fading values are generally high enough that your one special thing can't be used often, and are generally seen as less impactful than spells which have less drain, don't leave you screwed over in the meat world, and cost fewer chargen resources (you can get a bunch of spells in chargen, but not nearly as many complex forms). also, while not being matrix actions is good in some ways (don't generate OS), it is bad in that things which benefit matrix actions do nothing for complex forms.

next you add in that their best abilities generally don't even help themselves, but are actually more about supporting others you could use them to support yourself, but even with your best buffs you won't be as good as the other members of the team are without buffs.

the only build that is accepted as somewhat competitive is calling "pets" (sprites) to do your bidding, and even that costs so much that you're going to be incredibly weak outside of the matrix, plus it basically takes away all your downtime because you're going to spend hours per sprite registering, and hours per sprite resting (days if you take any physical damage).

a lot of the problems could be solved with some fairly simple errata (lower most CF fading codes, reduce priority level required to be a TM wouldn't do anything to make them better at decking, but it would at least mean they don't have to pay so much to be bad at decking). but that's probably beyond the scope of the e-book (and lies firmly in the hands of the senior management, and i fully expect it to not happen, so don't worry... it's not your fault, and i don't blame you for it). it could also be fixed with some not-very-simple errata (rebuilding them from the ground up to be more effective at what they do). that's probably beyond the scope of this edition.

technomancers got double nerfed relative to 4e (they used to cost a ton to build, but were really good at what they do... now they aren't very good at what they do, and they cost even more). remove one or the other (so that they are either really good at what they do, or not cripplingly expensive for what they do) and they'll become much more reasonable.

as to what we want from the e-book... probably a few updates of SR4 material, mostly. i wouldn't worry about fixing technomancers, though. that simply isn't something you're going to accomplish with an e-book unless you basically invalidate most of what is written about technomancers in the core book, and i doubt that's something they're looking for you to do. so update what you can without breaking anything, look for new and interesting things you can add to the game, and be happy with what you can do.

This is way beyond what you would be able to do in an e-book, but I'm dropping a link to Abschalten's Technomancer Redux v1.0 (PDF File) where the technomancer is completely redone, with build mechanics vaguely resembling an Adept/Mystic Adept. I thought it was one of the best takes I had seen on it. Just to help you situate yourself outside of the box.

LINK

Oh wow, I didn't think that document had made any traction at all. And I had become so disillusioned with 5e shortly thereafter that I never bothered to update it.

But yeah, feel free to pillage ideas from that document. I had half-meant it to be ideas for future developers anyway.

At First I want to thank You for giving aus a Chance to participate in this Brainstorming
(not every Freelancer does that.It takes some Chuzpe because some People will be Haters no matter what you do )
So KUDOs from Me
I would like you to get a good Grip on what a Technomancer is and what he can do, and what not !
I would like You to read the Emergence Book from 4th Edition
( lots of Mistakes happen because the Authors don't have the needed Background)
Oh, and to get in contact with the German Freelancers .
If You want to I can ask them to start a similar Thread in Germany and filter the Ideas from these Threads for You

Hough!
Medicineman

Sometimes "Oh god, they're letting the new girl go nuts, we're doomed." can be a good thing if it can shake something from the tree that works.

And we definitely appreciate your reaching out to pick the collective brains here, so thank you for this opportunity.

Sadly TM is not really my area of expertise, so can not give much in way of ideas/advice relevant to TMs, but there are plenty here who are.

One thing I might suggest when fine tuning your rules is create your own additional pool of playtesters with a mix of pros and novices, or folks who play different styles. While the main pool of playtesters have their place, sometimes they get into a rut of how they play or they may blast through a section because they 'know' how things are meant to work where a novice might ask is this really how things are supposed to work and a player who does things maybe more Mohawk than Trenchcoat might run into different applications of those rules.

Grenades are a good example of this. While it was said to have been heavily playtested and approved in the new no dodge form with no real problems seen with it as written, when it hit tables at the cons several GMs had to houserule in some kind of a dodge so as to avoid TPK because the grenades were readily available and maybe someone did not take this into account, assuming that grenades would only be used rarely because that just was how their particular groups played.

And don't get me wrong, they should be nasty- that is what they are designed to be and only moving away from one or otherwise taking cover should be your only options, but grenades are such a staple item at times that as they are written why would you use anything else if you got the space to avoid your own blastzone? Sure there is social stigma attached to being a mad dog bomber and how you go to the top of the most wanted lists, but that loses a bit of its punch when you remember we as shadowrunners are largely already a criminal/terrorist by definition.

But if this issue had been better addressed during playtesting we would still have the no normal dodge as that certaionly fits, but then they would have rolled out the 'Run for your Life' Interrupt action and it's cousins right from the start.
Although I might have adjusted the whole 'can use any amount of available Movement to move away from the incoming attack' down just a little bit as it basically just feeds the whole teleport move feel otherwise, but that is another issue for playtesting to discuss.

In any case we wish you well in this venture and look forward to it's release.

Well. What I'd like to see is a definite call on the origins of technomancy. As is, there are two mutually exclusive concepts - "Matrix Magic" as per early SR4, which basically concludes technomancy is a form of magic, and AI genesis, as per the Otaku and late SR3 (which already had adult otaku, such as Ronin, Grid Reaper, Hitomi Shiawase). I'd like to see someone unify them (something along the lines of the Deep Matrix maybe? Which could be tied to what 'mancers experience as Deep Resonance?).

Also, please try and find a way to make the background of AI work - to me it looks like SR4's initial idea was a story very much like Sprawl Trilogy's backstory (Neuromancer, Biochips, Mona Lisa Overdrive) - AI merge, generate a singularity and then shatter into bazillions of smaller AI because reasons. Then the idea of Matrix Magic was introduced, and Paragons were written up who were both "hacker guides" like Biochips' Loa, and at the same time Magix Patrons, and whether or not AI are beings of resonance, Unwired and Runners' Companion were totally at odds. It's quite the gordian knot, so ... try and have fun with that, maybe?

Also, if you could sneak something in to let Technomancers offset Resonance loss due to Essence loss, similar to the way Mages used to be able to offset Magic loss via Geasa, it'd be awesome.

It's a crap mechanic anyway, there's no reason in the world that someone who can manipulate technology with their brain should react badly to being more attached to it.

It's an attempt to balance the mage-like mechanics of 'mancers, to avoid them becoming "mages without the flaws". I do agree it's not exactly covered by in-game logic, unless you subscribe to technomancy as a type of magic, as SR4 did for some time.

In SR4 I never had the feel of technomancers being "matrix magicians" but more like someone whose brain doubled as a commlink.

Come SR5, they feel like they really are "matrix magicians" with their own special brand of magic that only works in the matrix (as opposed to true magicians who can work magic in meatspace, astral space, and beyond).

Which I'd be okay with if it didn't violate the basic setting premise that technology is inherently incompatible with magic.

Having Technomancy be something else doesn't bother me nearly as much because it doesn't violate basic premises of how magic works in the setting, and I personally don't think that letting technos cyber up is a problem, given the paucity of tech that makes them better at what they do best as compared to fitting them to take on secondary roles in the 95% of all shadowrunning that isn't occurring in the Matrix.

Yes, that is my main problem with that premise, too.

is it really incompatible ?
Not in My Oppinion.
The two don't like each other very much yes, but They're not inherently incompatible !

with a compatible Dance
Medicineman

Hey we are a lot more compatable then say Dresden style magicking that frags up local electronics.

Yes... See... THAT is Incompatible.

My biggest problem (besides what has already been mentioned) is that you are so helpless in meat space. Technomancers need pretty much every mental attribute to be high, and even with attributes priority A or B, they are pretty physically crippled.

Even worse, technomancers are the ONLY archetype without any way to increase their initiative. Mages can cast a spell. Adepts have a power for it. Everyone else can get cyberware and bioware without crippling their primary function. Technomancers are stuck with one initiative pass and going last, always.

As far as things that would help bring technomancers to a more playable state:

-Introduce some method of obtaining reasonable initiative compared to the rest of the group and the enemies trying to kill you.

-Mesh Reality echo, at the very least allowing you to have your one initiative pass, and then spend a couple more hacking and supporting with matrix actions in a firefight.

-Introduce some ways to lower fading. Right now complex forms are something you can do once and then have to go sleep it off. I feel like a bumblebee. Adding an echo to resist fading, or widgets, or traits... all of this would help! Something like a mage's fetish, that could lower the fade code of a complex form would also help.

-Technomancer-friendly custom cyberware would be really neat! Having a cyberlimb that I could put a machine sprite in and run diagnostics would be great if it didn't cripple me as a technomancer.

For Initiative I give you: Lightning Reflexes... +1 Initiative and +1d6. Positive Quality.

As a Techno, or mage for that matter, wanting a few extra passes you should look into getting a rating 2 Synaptic Booster for the +2 Reaction/ +2d6 Init all for the Essence friendly price of 1, which still knocks your MAG/RES but is a pretty good trade off.

of course, you'll need to put priority B or higher into resources to pull that off.

so, what, are we supposed to go attributes A resonance C skills D race E, and have neither the skills nor the resonance to be a technomancer (compounded by your essence loss), or resonance A attributes C skills D race E, and not have the skills or mental attributes to be a technomancer?

it just doesn't work. technomancers cost too much, and block off too many options.

though again, this is not something i expect can be fixed with a new book. the first thing that needs to happen is that someone at the top has to acknowledge that they screwed up, and change stuff that's in the core book; lower the cost of CFs, lower the priority cost of being a technomancer, and take some of those absurdly stupid echoes that should have been CFs, and make them CFs (and change some of the CFs, like the infusion of [attribute] line so that they're more like an adept's attribute boost).

Let's start with the positive for a change: 5th Edition is the first time technos are capable of doing truly unique things by default. It always rubbed me the wrong way that all the mysterious children of the matrix effectively did was emulating mundane users, until they went through a couple of submersions. The problem is that 5th edition ended up at the opposite extreme: All the bread and butter stuff they used to be able to do without effort (emulating programs) is missing entirely.
So where previously we had mages who could only cast spells acting like firearms in every way until the initiated, now we have D&D mages who can't use ordinary weapons. Except that D&D mages don't kill themselves if they let off one or two spells, whereas for TMs the ridiculous fading DVs turn the thing they can do into an elaborate kind of suicide.

TL;DR
- Fix the fading
- Let them use/emulate programs
- Bring back Dronomancers

For things which go above fixing TMs, I'd like to see some kind of adult otaku, who can accept cyberware but in return get more restricted abilities -- or maybe a different set altogether, like adepts vs. mages. It might even save some old otaku from the treatment Puck and now Pax got, i.e. reintroduced as TMs but magically missing all their cyber and with a full Essence refill.

Oh, and while we are talking about otaku: Bring back Daemons, pretty please?

Honestly, you have your work cut out for you. The technomancer fanbois won't accept anything that doesn't make the hacker totally redundant and it's not far off that now anyway.

Just make them go away. Crash 7.0 killed them all. yeah, that'll work!

No? Well I guess the only other option is to continue making them some kind of specialised entity. I'd keep the restrictions from other sources of magic or cyber but perhaps beef up the living persona.

Maybe they could manipulate non-wireless devices? That would be cool and would make wireless on/off less of an issue. Might as well have it on when half the threats out there can hack it anyway, and it would actually be explainable with 'Magic' which seems to be a major blocker for the simulationists accepting Deckers atm.

you clearly haven't looked at the TM rules lately.

technomancers are extremely far off of replacing *anything* in 5th edition. hell, the only build that is regarded as being reasonably playable basically has the technomancer replaced by a collection of sprites. you could literally have the TM sit at home and hand out sprite services to the team before the run, and not see much of a difference so long as you have a sufficiently large collection of registered sprites with lots of services. that's how relevant TMs are right now.

But don't try and make them more useful than agents (that is, useful at all), or you get another shitstorm about how op technos have become.

I can't quite subscribe to the claim that magic and technology are "inherently incompatible" - particularly not as a "basic setting premise". Certainly, they are at odds with each other in many cases and the latter can negatively impact the former while the former has a harder time of successfully affecting the latter but not to a degree that would warrant the "inherently incompatible" label. Fun fact: Magical effects, items and entities of higher levels are equally or more difficult to deal with when compared to technology since technology lacks the power to actually "resist" magic once sufficiently high powered magic is used against it.

So for me it boils down to this: Technomancers do possess some kind of supernatural power when compared to "mundane" humans. Though not easily, they even can be identified by "standard" magic users as to what they are (while interestingly enough the same cannot be said in reverse). Whether you want to call those powers (a kind of) "magic" or not is pretty much insubstantial to what they represent on the meta-physics level of the SR universe. I actually find it quite amusing that the developers even tried to use the "magic that is no magic" rationale in the first place.

The same is true for metal bits in your bones, or the collection of STIs someone caught during his last trip to the barrens. That does not make either of those magical


Well, a hacker can simply get into your diary and find out your're awakened

And which part of the sentence you quoted claimed that the possibility of successful identification is related to their (own) "magical" / "supernatural" nature?
*edit* To clarify: That particular sentence only referred to the fact that the supernatural state of technomancers does not exist "outside" the perception of the standard "magic" environment that "normal" magicians live in. If their supernatural state really was something "completely different" and "independent" on the metaphysics level, there's not much that would explain how that particular state would or should show up under the standard "magic" observation of astral perception / aura reading.



Good try, but "a hacker" isn't a technomancer and even a technomancer "hacking" into a diary would still be something different than a magician making direct use of one of his supernatural gifts to make the identification. They'd be on equal foot there only if a technomancer had some form of sensory detection mechanism that allowed him/her to (more or less instantly) identify a bypassing mage in the same manner as a mage can in reverse.

I would not call requiring 5 Hits on an Assensing Roll an "instant identification."

In all the years we had a Technomancer in 4th Edition, almost no mages identified him as such. It was really, really rare for them to obtain the requisite 5 hits required to do so.

And now you're deliberately ignoring context in order to (needlessly) nitpick.

Fact of the matter: It's tough (as I stated) before, but a skilled magician can do it pretty much instantly (just as I said as well) with one of his supernatural senses and the technomancer cannot do the same in reverse (again something I stated previously). My comment wasn't even making a judgement concerning that asymmetry or went into details concerning the difficulty. It merely stated that it exists and the label "tough" was telling enough.



Which only means that the mages your character met weren't necessarily "built" around the idea of (very) strong aura reading skills and additionally the responsible GMs might have come to the quite valid conclusion that just because the rules state "5 hit required to identify" not all magicians who score those hits by miracle also have a clue what that actually means ... just as I as a GM never turned magicians into cybertech or medical experts without associated knowledge skills just because the assensing table told that at 4+ successes you can pretty much diagnose any medical condition or locate and identify implants.

But this has certainly derailed this thread now far enough. May I suggest that you let it rest from this point on?

Wow, I make a single comment on the "immediacy" of the ability to call out a Technomancer through Assensing and I am so totally derailing the thread that you suggest that I cease and desist from said comments? Amazing indeed... *shrug*

Final comment: You act as if you are the only thing that exists there ... once again deliberately ignoring context and a bit too full of yourself: Count the number of (consecutive) postings - including mine, hermit's, Sengir's, yours and others - that haven't actually dealt with what the OP's requested. Maybe then you get a clue as to why this has been enough of an derailment.

And this is why we can't have nice things....

Comparing a TM to a Decker aside, the biggest issue with a TM is Fading when using any sort of complex form. TMs are pretty much boned when doing any type of high level threading. They should have some Submergance powers similar to Metamagics like Centering that allows them to resist fading more efficiently. They should also have some complex forms similar to some magic counter parts that had a L-3 or L-6 code.

Guys , can we get back to Topic Please ?
I always compared a TM to a Decker like a Mystical Adept to a Streetsam.
The Streetsam or Decker is better, more impressive at the Start because they can get big Boosts to Attributes ,Ini and Skills with the Help of 'ware (Deck & Progs)
whereas the Mystical Adept ( TM) starts lower in Abilities but over the Time (and with lots of Karma ) they can become more Awesome, gain more and diverse Abilities ( the Myst Adept with initiation, the TM with Immersion)AND they can get Spirits (Sprites) to help them out.
At least that was my Impression in SR4A .
I would like to have the same Developement again in SR5.
I haven't played a TM in 5th ed, so I have no personal experience, but from what I read in the Forums, the TMs..... get the Short Stick now .
This might be OK, if they hav a chance to get more important Abilities / to become more versatile later on

with a Long Shot Dance
Medicineman

But Technomancers are NOT using magic as their abilities work outside the manasphere. Also in areas of high background count it does jack squat. I thought to myself that this was true psionics (not the bovine excrement in Street Magic). Pure power of the mind over matter.

Precisely. Which is why I'd like to see a definite ruling here.

And no, please not as a new track of super-magic, complete with Whiter Men from Mars. SR2 was bad enough, no need to go down that rabbit hole again.

The thing is with that argument is that it's based on technomancers with zero karma. When you play one for a while you notice them getting significantly better because they can buy all those low level abilitys they had to skip at creation while everyone else is burning exponential karma raising a few 6s to 7s.

I accept that people want to be baddasses from the get-go but that's just not how TMs work and if that beef up the front end I'd really want to see the back end stripped away otherwise all you're doing is making deckers the role that nobody plays and they've already held that status since 2nd Ed.

I think you could base your analysis on a technomancer with 100 or even 200 karma and the argument would still hold up fairly well.

I was actually thinking about Harlequin's cryptic Matrix conversations, which seemed to hint that the Matrix would be the key to dealing with the HorrorsEnemy and using that as a starting point for how to think of TMs fitting into Shadowrun's mythology. Not magic, because magic didn't very well help the last time around, did it?

Is that not an avenue I should pursue?

EDIT: Wanted to confirm that I am reading this thread and it's given a couple pretty good ideas! Thanks so far.

Eh, I've always thought Shadowrun was better off being distanced from the old Earthdawn tie-in stuff, since it naturally lead to Immortal Elf fanboi wankery and the like. Of course, SR5 is the Grognard Hard-on edition, so mine is probably the minority dissenting opinion on the matter.

In any event I'm having trouble seeing how technomantic powers would be key to dealing with the Horrors should they return (though it's entirely possible I just don't have the imagination to see it.) If this is the route you take, it will be interesting to see what you come up with.

As for other ideas and suggestions for TMs, I'm really not sure what I can give. I have no idea how much latitude you are going to be given with technomancers in terms of giving them new stuff and fixing what's broken. They really need an overhaul to put them on par with the other classes. The Echoes-via-submersion model as put forth doesn't work as the Echoes are just adept power analogs that are ridiculously overpriced. Complex Forms need their Fading brought down across the board. And basic things like PAN/WAN functionality needs to be given back to the TMs so they can have MEANINGFUL interactions with devices again.

Given that SR5 has been out two years without any patches to TM capabilities, I don't think the changes that they need will be permitted. I could be wrong. CGL might grant the leeway needed and you might write an excellent PDF. It could be so awesome that it could get me back into Shadowrun. I can only hope.

agreed (so long as you're comparing to a similarly advanced decker, that is; a 200 karma technomancer is probably going to be better than a 0 karma decker)

the thing is, the decker will be able to advance their skills, won't have to be a total liability outside of the matrix, and will still have all the same advantages held at zero karma. at 200 karma, the technomancer *still* won't be able to reconfigure their deck, will *still* take matrix damage on their own health instead of taking it to an easily repaired device, will *still* be dealing with extreme levels of fading, will still have to make a decision between augmentations and resonance, still won't have programs, and so forth.

you seem to think that 200 karma is going to make you into some sort of matrix god. it really isn't. the "low level abilities" (by which i presume you mean complex forms) still will not be that impressive, even if you do learn them all (frankly, i think there's really only maybe 3-4 that are even *worth* taking anyways), and their fading will still be absolutely brutal (i'm not sure just what you imagine having maybe +3 dice in your fading resistance pool is going to do for you, but it isn't going to make 7+ fading damage go down to zero).

and this even if we assume that it makes any sense at all to balance the game at a point where many people will not reach and leave it broken at a point where almost everyone is guaranteed to reach. how does that make sense?

I'm not saying I'd adhere to it like Gospel, just that as a starting point. "This weird internet stuff is something so new and different that it could be the key to whooping the horrors? What would that be like?" Big D thought it was a big deal too, remember how much he left to the study of Otaku? I would personally be happy if I never had to touch Harlequin or Dunkelzahn's will in the actual lore, though, tbh. Harlequin is...tricky to do right, to say the least, and I firmly believe the will was a list of plot coupons for GMs, not writers. But now I'm off topic.

Anything is on the table, but huge changes like how Echoes work would be presented as alternate rules; You can use them, and the book will support the SR5/Data Trails rules, but we also have this here if you want to try that.

I agree that two years without fixing Technomancers is a problem. It's actually why I signed on with Catalyst. To write this book and hopefully give them the awesomeness they deserve, without just escalating the Decker vs. TM playability war.

I wholeheartedly agree with Fading being too strong and PAN support. My SR game is testing some new ideas I had for rules to counter that without making Deckers redundant right now, actually.

The thing is, deckers are never going to be redundant. What alot of handwringers and pro-decker diehards don't understand is that if you give both of them an equivalent pile of karma, deckers will grow their skills while technomancers will focus on submersions and their attributes. And while TMs have a karma bottleneck, deckers have a dual advancement track based on nuyen.

In SR4 and SR4A, all that would've been needed to balance long-term hackers vs. technomancers would've been to increase the skill cap to 12 and make hardware and software ratings go up to 12. A hacker would've devoted money into implants, hardware, and software while putting karma into his skills. Technomancers would've had to make hard choices about which skills to raise vs. their other needs.

So while technomancers are going to have all the neat tricks and help from sprites, hackers (or deckers) will have the raw skill and the high-end hardware/software to crush the opposition. Sure, you might have a Grade 2, Resonance 8 technomancer who has some neat echoes and whatnot. Meet a hacker who dumped every penny into his gear, and all his karma into his skills, and has support from implants that does not negatively impact his abilities -- quite the opposite.

What actually HURT deckers was the idiotic move back to old cyberdeck prices. I think if you chopped the last digit off of each of those deck prices you'd have something approaching reasonable, and they'd have much more parity and competitiveness with technomancers.

I would argue that the point of comparison being shamans and magicians is unfair. If anything drain for traditional spellcasters is too soft and needs to be raised (particularly for area elemental spells). The argument that they should be balanced is valid, but reducing TM drain is the wrong way to do it.

I don't know a lot about magic but fading needs a nerf badly. I've heard countless stories of TMs dying in their first session from a bad biofeedback roll. You ever hear the one about the guy that faceplanted into a bowl of soup because he fried himself running a data search on Mr. Johnson? Hell, I came close to having that happen to my own character.

So ... the early SR4 "it's actually a weird form of pattern magic" track? Because that's what I took from that conversation (you're thinking about Alpha/Omega's in Target Matrix, right?).

Personally, I'd prefer something that ties in with the obvious Sprawl Trilogy inspiration from System Failure and late SR3. This would make Technomancers something basically mundane, more like modified humans than Awakened.

AI would also have to feature heavily in this, but to even guess at the feasibility of that line of thought I'd have to have read Data Trails entirely, and I'm not through yet. So maybe "it's a kind of magic (that is more awesome)" is the only way that's still possible.

The Technomancer I am playing is sitting at 159 Karma, and while she is better than when she started, she is still not where I would expect to see such a character at that level. It is a subjective thing, though, as everyone has different ideas on what makes a Technomancer ideal.

Oh, no, no, no, I was NOT going down THAT path! I went through my cheesy Munchkin phase a long time ago. I'm sorry if you thought I wanted to turn TMs into ubermen.

I actually wrote up rules for Psionic abilities in Shadowrun, and they were more limited than Awakened. Sure they had some neat tricks, but nothing world shattering. Kinda like Technomancers.

In SR4, as you know, TM's when they had enough Karma, could become badass. I mean why would you need Wired Reflexes when you can get it for "free" with Echos? Just think about that Hermit, with nothing but the power of their minds, SR4 Technomancers could move as fast as a Street same who dumped at LEAST 100,000 for Wired Reflexes 3 (that's the standard version, MUCH, MUCH, more for Alpha or better). That to me SCREAMS that Technomancers are Psionic.

I think you misunderstand me. My position is even with a bunch of karma technomancers are underpowered and gimped. They never catch up to deckers except on timelines that involve more earned karma than most campaigns earn from start to finish.