Ambidexterity, two weapon fighting Options

[Rory Blackhand]

I have a character concept in mind that requires ambidexterity to take advantage of a two weapon fighting style. If you look at the cover of Man and Machine it shows a samurai wielding 2 katanas simultaneously. I am trying to make a character on the path of becoming a "Kensai", (sword saint) and want to give him the best possible start I can to it.

I am confused by the number of differing systems to handle two weapon use though. First what is the current rule and the mechanics of how it works? Second is using two katanas acceptable? If not why not? Miyamoto Musashi used two katanas. Niten Ichi Ryu, "two heaven" style is a Kenjutsu art of two weapon use, sometimes two katanas. If not, then how about no dachi and katana for a troll sized character wishing to use this style? Is there a penalty for trolls to use two handed human sized weapons? I thought I saw a +1 penalty somewhere?

I also fight in the SCA, frequently with two long swords. The longer, the better, actualy. Anyone not familiar with the SCA, it is a "full contact" martial art using wooden weapons and real armor. I have been fighting for years. Two weapon style is common, but long sword/short sword is almost nonexistant, simply because it does not work as well as two long swords. This is not ancient history, this is real world practicality.

This link shows two long sword fighting in a tournament:

http://4th.com/photo.php?dir=sca/justin/ph...0030525-157.jpg

This link shows a grainy (sorry) video of a war, if you look carefuly you can see two weapon style being used in battle, skirmishers though, not in the main line:

http://www.romanempire.net/romepage/images...f%20movie02.asf

I am not sure on the rules, so I wanted to get some advice here. I am looking at the Canon Companion and it has variying degrees of ambidexterity edge. Is this an optional rule? To get no penalties you have to take an 8 point edge?

I would like to be able to use two swords with the least amount of penalties. I really don't care about ranged combat for this character concept. I just want to be the best two weapon swordsman possible. Any help is appreciated.

[Glyph]

The official rules for ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting are on pages 94 - 96 of the Cannon Companion. To use two weapons in combat with no penalties, you need an extra off-hand weapon skill, or you can take the Ambidexterity Edge (the 6 or 8 point versions let you use an off-hand weapon with your primary weapon skill). The Edge is slightly better, effectiveness-wise. Yes, you use up a lot of those precious Edge points, but subsequently you only have to improve one skill. On the roleplaying end, though, you may want to ask yourself if the character has trained himself to be good with his off-hand at everything (ambidexterity), or has learned a two-weapon fighting style but is otherwise normal-handed (an off-hand weapon skill).

Two-weapon fighting it very effective by the rules for it - you add half of your off-hand skill and half of all bonus dice that would normally apply to an off-hand skill. So take an adept with a sword who has Edged Weapons: 6 and Improved Ability/Edged Weapons: 6. Normally, that character would roll 12 dice. But with the 6-point Ambidexterity Edge, and wielding two weapons, that character would roll 18 dice. Since SR melee is essentially a dice contest, two-weapon fighters will tend to do very well. Still not as good as an adept, but adepts with two-weapon fighting are scary.

You are very correct about trolls being able to wield a two-handed weapon single-handedly with lesser penalties. Unfortunately, the rules have a list of primary and secondary weapons, which two-handed weapons are missing from for obvious reasons. So, your GM may not allow you to combine two-weapon fighting with a two-handed weapon used single-handedly - it depends on how much of a stickler for the rules he is.

If your GM uses the optional martial arts rules, you might want to get something like Kung-Fu, which lets you buy some maneuvers for weapons. The best one is Whirling, which lets you negate Friends in Melee bonuses for your opponents.

Be aware that in SR canon, the Japanese tend to be racist against metahumans to begin with, as well as sticklers for the samurai code, and a troll using two Japanese swords might quickly end up with the Hunted Flaw. You may want to stick with something like an Ares monosword and Cougar Fineblade knife - or a Chinese long sword and kris if you want to keep an oriental flavor.

[FrostyNSO]

Sorry man, but a long and short sword is much better for hand to hand, it gives you depth that you can't achieve with two long swords.

You can't just smack the guy with your sword, all of your cuts must be delivered with proper technique. When your up-close (and I mean sometimes your bodies are together), you can deliver a far more effective cut with a short blade than a long one.

The big disadvantage of two long swords is that your opponent can close width like I just mentioned.

BTW, I have studied Niten Ichi Ryu for 9 years now.

[Fygg Nuuton]

anyone wielding 2 weapons is shot on sight

[Cynic project]

My only character who really used swords used gladuious and a manhunter for his two weapon fighting. It was totally sweet.

[WolfJack]

[Necro Tech]

Back to the original topic, axes and hammers or picks make good combo weapons. The Picts loved them and hacked up Romans and other invaders for hundreds of years. They have the advantages of natural hooks and they work at medium and short ranges. On the other hand, there is zero finesse, just raw brutality.

[Rory Blackhand]

My question is primarily about game mechanics, using two weapons, and how it works. Glyph, thank you for taking the time to answer my question clearly and too the point.

To the rest of you; Fygg, I would shoot anyone I saw with two weapons too. Not the point, though. I am developing a character concept. Page 5 of the Companion, under "The Concept", "You can model your character after a......historic figure". I chose Musashi. What is wrong with that? He developed a trend setting style of using two swords. Like me, maybe he was ambidexterous? I throw a football and pitch with my left hand, but I write with my right.

Frosty, I disagree with you. You don't get more depth with a short sword except under very rare circumstances, like if you are locked in a closet trying to have a sword fight maybe. In that case the referee can use a little common sense and say weapons have a minimum space requirement to use. The fact is both long swords will be in play more often then not in a tournament setting for instance and your short blade will be next to useless except to block with. And since it is smaller it will even do a worse job of doing that than a long sword. I have been fighting since 1978, not steadily or even diligently, but yes, for the last 26 years. I have fought kendo experts, martial artists, olympic class fencers, and other athletes. I have beaten them all in my sport, and have been beaten when I tried theirs. You can't compare a heavy infantry sport like the SCA to a light infantry sport like kendo or fencing. Folks that are masters in one are not going to be masters in the other by default. Which one is more realistic? I will take the full contact heavy weapon training where you could be killed or crippled if you did not have armor on over the fancy dance steps of a kata based form utilizing rigid stylized sword manuevers.

The main difference I have seen between the sports are armor, weapon speed, and shot strength required to make a kill. The bokken you train with would not last one fight in my sport, nor would it be heavy enough to make an actual kill thru chain over boiled leather armor. Any hard wood would crack and shatter after three or four good hits with the power I put into my swing.

I can bench press just about 380 pounds, I am flexible, and I have great endurance. My shots can generate a good deal of force and I never tire of throwing them. I also routinely fight with two 48 inch swords and do not have any problems fighting in close or at range when I am on a tournament field. I use hard wrist snaps, like cracking a whip, to generate centrifical force to power thru my opponent's guard.

In your sport all the fighting motions are based on utilizing the weight of your sword, which is called Kissaki Kaeshi, right? To me this is funny. You think you don't need real power in combat with an armored opponent? You think you can practice to kill a man and not aim for his vitals in your sparring? You think only fighting three different ways ie, long sword on long sword, short sword on long sword, and two sword on long sword, gives you more real fighting experience than an SCA battle would where you could face anything between a spear to a battle axe and shield?

One thing I like about SCA fighting is that I can use any weapon, any combination, and any style and decide what actually works and wins a fight based off first hand experience. I have used unorthodox two weapon combos like polearm and short sword, axe and mace. and many others. Your own school's founder rejected traditional styles saying the only way to discover the right way to fight was thru personal trial and error. I can say with 100% certainty from many hours of hard hitting combat, that two long swords are good weapons up close, far away, and all points in between.

Since my blade is a long sword it has an edge on both sides. I will go chest to chest with you and strike your back with no more than a simple roll of the wrist. It is called a "wrap shot" because the sword hand actually punches past the plane of the opponent's body and the sword "wraps" around behind them as you roll your wrist sharply downward and pull into the "snap" to form a whipping motion just before contact. I have a strong wrap shot and most opponents that close with me find their back immediatly under assault and quickly move back to range or die.

On the flip side, I have tried to use the little bamboo kendo swords and don't really like it. Even a child can be proficient in kendo. It takes very little power to send those swords sailing thru the air almost faster than you can track. Not very realistic if facing an armored opponent, like Shadowrun bad guys for instance. Sure against an unarmored opponent I would probably take a Kenjutsu fighter over a heavy infantry fighter because of the speed factor. You want to take a man out by aiming for vitals instead of raw power, and that is cool when armor does not play a factor. Where you start to lose credibility is in heavy combat though. You won't deflect a bastard sword with a short sword, and if I am just as accurate at hitting as you are you won't side step it either. That leaves the raw power of my sword chopping you damn near in half vs you hoping to find a vital location with your many lighter cuts on me. You say you work on building powerful chopping power thru your rigorous training? OK, I work on building blinding speed with my long swords. I have a stack of tires in my back yard filled with dirt on a 4 x 4 post. I work for power, speed, and a crisp recovery every night. The little wrist flicks of cane fighting feels weird to me and unrealistic. In the real world we both get shot, with armor on you are dead, with no armor I am dead.

In Shadowrun we wear armor. The question and all argument has to be geared towards that fact. I have trained for hundreds of hours using two long swords, I have put it to practical use, I see it being more common than not in practical use, the list on page 96 of the Cannon Companion is not a list of every possible weapon, nor has the writer ever been in battle apparently. Musashi fought with two katanas, the cover of man and machine has a samurai wielding two katanas, film and movies, ie Matrix, Kill Bill, etc use two katanas. I don't see a problem with it? This is a fantasy game last I checked after all and the rules state the secondary weapon can't be longer than the primary.

The problem is with the list for secondary weapons. You can use two unwieldy whips, but you can't use two swords? Come on, get real. What about trolls? A katana should be no more than a big knife for a troll. You saying a troll can't use two katanas?

WolfJack, there are thousands of fighters out there that can kick your ass that would disagree with you. If you do fight in the SCA I would like you to explain that comment to Sir Bellatrix, you should know him if you are involved. If you don't fight in the SCA then you should shut up until you know what you are talking about. Yes there are costumes, yes there are women, yes there is drinking, but I, along with alot of people, do not fight for the recreation part of it. I fight for the sport and practicality of it. The eastern martial arts schools and styles do not have a monopoly on warfare. The SCA is a great proving grounds for any armed and armored combat style you can think of. If you are a martial artist I reccomend you look into it to add to your arsenol. A few of us aboard some aircraft on 9/11 could have saved alot of lives. No martial art that does not have full contact is much use in my opinion and I have fought alot of fights in my life.

If you don't think the SCA is a serious fighting group take a look at this manual. If you want to learn how to become a heavy infantryman able to kill and crush armored opponents then read it. The guy is old, but he was one of the best.

http://www.bellatrix.org/school/

The armor used is of varying types and weights. You can find light weight alloys like aluminum and not so light, like titanium chainmail. Accuracy buffs go with the steel, others get enough armor to protect against a baseball bat and live with the aluminum or rigid plastic. Point is without the armor, 14 gauge steel for head gear, you could not have a full contact sport like this with 7' wooden weapons. Not unless you want your brains bashed out of your skull.

Your short sword suggestion will do one thing in a real fight. Get you killed. Don't believe me? I live in the Detroit area. We can test it out safely with armor and wooden weapons. I guarantee you will not touch any part of my body before I can score 5 kills on you. Message me if you are interested in putting your money where your mouth is.

As a side note to everyone else. Since Cannon reworked unarmed combat. Shouldn't there be weapon styles with manuevers to represent the various armed combat schools?

[toturi]

*sigh* I see that you are one of those.

[Rory Blackhand]

Sorry Toturi, I am long winded. I will try my best not to get too deep in any dicussions any more. I am just here to have fun, not argue the mechanics of the world. I do want to create a character with the goal of becoming a kensai. Don't care how well I fight with ranged weapons. Just looking to be the best dual bladed fighter possible. Ambidexterity and edge weapons 6 seem to be the way to go. Probably a phsical adept too following the path of Bushido and skilled in Origami or some other art form.

[FrostyNSO]

First, if you've never had an opponent close width with you, then you are fighting inferior opponents. One of the best ways to negate your opponent's weapon reach is to close inside of it. Not just within arm reach, but close enough to inflict blows with your body if neccessary. Don't play to opponent's advantage, play to yours. If I was using 2 long swords, I would keep my distance.

Second, you don't block with a sword unless you want to have a broken or damaged sword. You deflect.

Third, just because you have beaten practitioners of other arts, and been beaten when you tried theirs does not make their style inferior.

Fourth, kata are not intended to take the place of actual training. They are intended to maintain proper sword handling and technique. "Rigid and Stylized" manuevers are just that. You do not make 'dance steps' either. When you fight, you fight with fluidity and you step naturally.

Fifth, your weapon's weight has little to no bearing on your ability to make a kill. Placement and technique are far more important.

Sixth, I have seen 'wrist snaps' such as you described. They are ineffective for delivering a cut in close quarters. Again I think our definitions of 'close quarters' are as different as night and day.

Seventh, my art in no way relies upon the utilizing the weight of the weapon. Anybody who knows anything about swords realizes that when it comes to a sword, lighter is better. Your own strike and technique is what provids the power in your attack, not weight. Where do you get the notion that we don't train to attack a person's vitals from anyways?

Eighth, where did you get the notion of only 3 different style ways? We train in many configurations against many other configurations, not limited to opponents with two swords, yari, naginata, chain-sickle, and many others. Your knowledge of my art is not what you seem to think it is. As far as shields go, I think a shield is even better than a second sword when used correctly, but we won't get into that right now.

Anyway, I will have to get to the rest of this later since I will soon be relieved, but as far as your bastard sword scenario, why would I sidestep it or deflect it when I can fall back and counter, or close width and strike? Also, you are partially mistaken, Musashi trained with two long swords true, but when it came to fighting, the man used all sorts of configurations.
I am happy that you have found a style that works for you. I however am able to bench 380 pounders so I must rely on another style. As far as putting my money where my mouth is, I live on the west coast so if your headed out for an SCA event or anything that's the only way we're going to ever meet. Otherwise, I can't be flying out to Detroit to settle a pissing contest. I don't know where you get all of your information, but I suggest you research things a bit more thouroughly before you go telling me how they practice my own art.

[FrostyNSO]

*am NOT able to bench 380 pounders, sorry.

[Glyph]

Getting back on topic... if you want your character to be the "best possible" two-weapon fighter, then an adept is really your only option. It's been said many times by many posters - adepts make better specialists, and cybered characters make better generalists.

The main ability that adepts have in melee combat is the Improved Ability power. Melee is an opposed test, where you can get wounded while "attacking" someone and wound someone while they are "attacking" you. So the ability to throw 6 extra dice into the mix is a huge advantage.

From a min-maxing perspective (and some min-maxing is not bad if it fits a character concept), you have done two things right already. Two-weapon fighting is effective for the same reason adepts are effective - it gives more dice. Trolls also rule melee because they have huge bonuses to Body and Strength, as well as a +1 Reach. Those two advantages would still not be enough to defeat an adept focused on melee, though - you need to be an adept yourself to truly be "the best".


You may want to see what kind of campaign your GM runs, though, and how he views character types that might be categorized as "powergaming". If a maxed-out character will do nothing but create friction in the group (who may resent your character for being more powerful, and blame you when the GM sends tougher adversaries at the group), then you may as well tone the character back a little and be more well-rounded. If you will be facing more street-level opposition, then your toned-down character will still be "the best".

[FrostyNSO]

Don't forget the absolutely AWESOME 'counterstrike' ability that adepts can get. .5 points for each extra die when defending in melee. Great for when your combat pool is toast =)

[Moon-Hawk]

Mushashi did indeed develop Niten Ichi Ryu, which involved fighting with two swords; a daito and shoto. Also called a katana and wakizashi. In fact, the term daisho means long-short. Your inspiration used a long sword and a short sword.

To expand on what Frosty said:

[FrostyNSO]

You make a good point, I should clarify. By block I meant when the combatants slam their swords together, or when one attempts to slam the opponent's sword away by force alone. That is the type of behavior which can damage even a well-made sword.

A parry can be effective, but as you said a battement or ward is much better =)

[Odin]

Although IRL blocking is almost useless unless you're using a large weapon if your using a knife or short sword your better off going for the kill and accepting that your gonna get cut so you better cut deeper and faster and harder......hmmm that came out wrong lol.

[Voran]

The thing that bugged me about the way SR manages ambidexterity in conjunction with skills, is that it seems you'd have to take ambidexterity to be able to play the drums.

[Ol' Scratch]

No it doesn't. You don't need Ambidexterity to use two weapons. It's just a nicer option than investing in two seperate skills or defaulting from one (Clubs) to the other (Off-Handed Clubs).

[Kagetenshi]

[JaronK]

I've actually been working on legitimate full sized double sword styles, and it's quite difficult to get right. I use swords of the appropriate weight, and I've been using my training in duel weilding flexible weapons to make things work... essencially, by letting the second weapon follow the first in most cases, and generally keeping both weapons moving in an arc, it's actually less tiring since the momentum of the weapons is always on my side. It's definitely doable, though I need to work on it more to iron out the kinks.

JaronK

[Kagetenshi]

But in a situation where you're using a fake SCA-style weapon, you can pretty much move the two swords independently of each other for a vast increase in effectiveness that just doesn't happen for anyone of realistic strength.

That being said, I could see Trolls or maybe beefy Orks doing it, but it's nowhere near as legitimate a "real-world technique" as something like SCA experience might lead one to believe.

~J

[Rory Blackhand]

I kind of forgot this thread I was so busy, but I was not done talking. At the risk of being pulled deeper into a needless debate I would like to add a few things to some comments that were made.

First, I was wondering how ambidexterity worked. Glyph was kind enough to help me out with a great explanation. Second I wanted to know about fighting with two weapons, in particular, two katanas. The chart on page 96 of Canaon Companion is far from exhaustive. I can't think of any reason not to allow two one handed weapons. The list does not even cover or account for traditional styles like Roman style retiarius, net and trident, or a variation of the same, laquearii, lasso and trident. Dimacheri, fought with two swords. Kung Fu weapons forms; Surng Nau Yip Doe, Double Tie-Sheet Blades. Surng Ngow Doe, Double Hook Blades. Where is the tongfa or the sai? You can't fight with them because they are not on the list? The Thais fought with two swords, Krabi Krabong is the grandfather fighting style of Muay Thai.

Here is a brief crappy video of Krabi Krabong. About 15 seconds into the clip is two guys sparring. Neither look dangerous to me. The guy with the two flimsly little bokken is doing a fighting fade or something? The guy with the single bokken is blocking with his hand? Both would be dead in a real fight with an armored opponent. Sorry I am not delivering high quality video for you to look at, but you can at least see that fighting with two katanas is certainly possible.

http://dogbrothers.tv/videoclips/dbmaa05.wmv

Here is a link to some background on Krabi Krabong. My wife is Thai which makes my kids half Thai, so I have a special interest in Thai history. Daab Song Muun, literaly translated means, "sword" "two" "hands".

http://www.kalijkd-u.com/the_martial_arts/...s/muay_thai.php

Or if you like fluff, take a look at some lame fighting kata?

http://www.cmac1.com/Unsu/video/kali1.mov

I think this alone is enough evidence that two sword style is historicly accurate even discounting Florentine fencing style or SCA fighting. My own personal experience of over 20 years of training says two long sword is a very good style.

Frosty, for the record, I have fought awesome fighters. I have been in close many occasions. What makes you think I have not fought in close? The double edge of the long sword allows for either blade edge to be used in battle, which is much more versatile than the katana. The lower edge strikes the opponent in the standard slash, but the upper edge attacks the back of the opponent with a downward wrist rotation just before contact from an overhead motion. Standing literaly chest to chest I am able to wrap my shots around to the backs of my opponents with no loss of power or speed at all. If you don't block with your sword you do not know how to fight. Not to mention this is Shadowrun with high tech alloys, dikoting even. I am not putting down other fighting forms. The ones with too many rules on where you can aim and the ones that do not allow hands on full contact training are not giving realistic training though. Sorry if you have invested alot of time learning an "art". In a real fight though I would want SCA trained men guarding my kids over any of the art schools that teach sword play. They are nice for show, but little else.

Your weapon's weight has everything to do with making a kill. Why would you say that it doesn't? Here is some testing done. Notice even a two handed sword swung with full power does not get thru armor. I hope this helps you realize that those light weapons do nothing in a real fight with armored opponents nor is it realistic to train with them with thise overhead little slashes to the head and shoulders. You need a thrusting tip to pierce armor or you need something like a mace or flail to deliver heavy crushing damage to produce blunt force trauma. Skill is great, but raw power is what kills quickest.

http://www.mythosproductions.com/media/ISTTDmed.mov

Your claims that a lighter sword is better only applies when facing unarmored opponents. And I will fully agree with you that technique and and light weapon is better in that case. I hope I am clear in distinguishing the two situations? In Shadowrun, which is what this debate is about, you wear armor or die.

Sorry, but you don't sound like someone who has studied Niten Ichi Ryu for 9 years as you claim. There is only one place that I am aware of that is authorized to teach it outside of Japan and that is at the University of Guelph Sei Do Kai in Canada, and only in the summer when the instructer has a seminar each year. Is this where you have been getting instruction? I am only a 3 hour drive from there and would be happy to demonstrate my own skills against anyone at the school if you are going? As far as getting out to Cali I do on occasion and I can put you in touch with friends that will be happy to show you what full contact is all about if you want? Here is a couple of links I found to the school I was talking about. It is hard to believe they have authorized anyone to teach that style outside of Japan and that is why I thought you were Japanese earlier when you said you had been studying it for 9 years.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/iai-nitenseminar.html
http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_taylor_0802.htm

Moon Hawk, thanks for the little lesson in sword defense. I use punch blocks alot and I am also very thankful to have a larger surface area to deflect with on the many occasions I face a speed demon. That is what a basket hilt was designed for. And if you get your glove really wedged in there you don't have to grip the sword so tightly, which is a good thing when you need to switch angles of attack quickly.

The SCA is a sport as you say. They stress safety with minimum armor requirements and an authorization proccess before you are allowed to participate in tournaments or wars. With the same protection used in kendo though there would be deaths. I have hit someone hard enough to knock them out, thru 14 gauge steel, and 1 1/2" foam padding. I guarantee you I could kill an unarmored opponent with little trouble. Give me two axe handles and come at me with anything that does not spit lead and see what happens.

You also claim there is no historical evidence for using two swords in battle? You don't know your history very well. Check out the link I provided about Krabi Krabong. The Thai government just spent millions of dollars making a 7 hour historicaly accurate documentary called Suriyothai. In the full Thai version which we have here at the house there is plenty of ground fighters using 2 swords in the elaborate battle scenes they created.

You also seem confused about how to train for a real fight. Your reasoning is flawed in that you think our methods do not give realistic results because there is no evidence of two sword style in history, which you are wrong about of course. But there is a simple fact you ignore, modern man has a long list of advantages over ancient fighters from any point in history, one of which is access to most all the knowledge that was ever written on the combined styles thru history. I think two long blades are a good style because I get my ass kicked any time I try something as dumb as going long sword short sword. And you think SCA style combat does not get as close as humanly possible to the real thing? That is like saying target practice at the rifle range won't make you a good sniper because you are not firing a living targets.

Kagetenshi, we have weakling women that fight in the SCA. Alot of them fight two sowrd. Two long swords. Which is absolutly no suprise to me considering the alternative is to hold a shield that weighs 5 times as much. Your statement at first kind of pissed me off, because you were in a sense calling me a liar about what I can and can't do! Then I realized you don't have a clue what you are talking about. The 50" sword I use in each hand with basket hilt weighs more than a katana. In motion it is aerodynamicly different, I admit, but that is actualy a good thing because a sword feels so much easier to control. Once you have had to move a rounded surface thru the air at great speeds the flat slice of a real sword is nice. Now if I could only find some training partners willing to risk getting killed.

JaronK, fighting with two weapons of equal length and weight is so much more natural. The human body is symetrical to a large extent and just like you said, you can realy get into a rythm when using both arms together. Try delaying one swing a bit when attacking the same side. Alot of fighters will block and recover, but if you are hitting high then low just a split second later you will catch some out of guard as they lower or raise to block the leading blade.

Check out this brief clip. Notice how close the two fighters are at the end. I have been chest to chest, but at least this clip shows that long sword within dagger range is just as effective or better. Too bad I can't get some of my video to you guys. I have hours of film, but none of it is digital.

http://www.shieldcam.com/video/capture0031a.mpg

[Sesix]

You know its amazing you say "I'm not putting down other fighting forms" yet you say "take a look here at some lame fighting kata" Sounds like a put down to me. Also to me you put a lot of emphasize on armor. Granted I will give you armor makes you some what of a harder target, but it also does something else, weighs you down. Cause of this your lighter opponent which you so discernably belive you will kill with a single blow, while quite possible, can dance circles around you all day. All he has to do is wait out your endurance while you stumble after him like a lumbering oaf. Even "if" you could bench press 380 lbs, thats str training, not endurance. There is quite a difference.

Now for the two weapon fighting, I can't agree or disagree, all that is a matter of prefrence. Im sure the long swords work for you and many others. Has quite a truth to it. However, I prefer two diffrent size weapons. Reason being my left hand is noticably weaker then my right. I dont need a dead left arm after trying to wield something thats much easier for my right arm to bear. I dont work that way, so the smaller blade would suit me, but see thats how I do it. I applaude yer use of two long swords, I could never do it, my arms wouldnt let me, plus to me it feels a little akward, hehe.

[Your weapon's weight has everything to do with making a kill]
I find this remark one of complete ignorance. You seem to be coming off as a man who uses brute strength over everything else. I'm not saying a heavy weapon isnt going to kill you, it will make no mistake, but theres more to a weapons weight for a death blow. Your so called heavy sword not being able to get through armor with a swing is true, of course its not, yer slashing against a solid object, why are you slashing? For such a thing you need to pierce the armor, while granted is hard but much easier then trying to slash his armor off him. How about that light weapon you so much despise. I know when Im using it against an armored opponent I dont go for the armor, I go for the spots the armor dosent cover. There are plenty, cause Im pretty sure yer not wearing full plate in a fight, any who do is sorely mistaken, that stuff was made mainly for parades not an actual on foot fight.

Its all a matter of technique and style. Every thing has its advantages and disadvantages. One must know how to utilizes these, and when one has mastered his own weaknesses does he masters his opponents.

[SporkPimp]

You guys are all idiots.

That said, I'd like to add something to what Glyph and the others are saying... the Ambidexterity edge is better, as has been repeatedly pointed out, but a major reason is because of Karma. Buying an 8-point edge and a rating 6 skill costs a little more in chargen than a pair of rating 6 skills, but the in-game costs of boosting both weapon skills will rapidly dwarf the benefits you could've gotten from the two extra points you put into Ambidexterity. At most you could've used them to boost two skills from 5 to 6, but for some characters that would be cheaper than raising Off-Hand from 6 to 7, and as your character ages and puts more points in those skills the combined karma cost of Edged Weapons and the off-hand skill will get ridiculous.

So, from a metagaming standpoint (and comparing the cost/benefit ratio of an Edge to a Skill is borderline metagaming anyway), you'd again be better off with the Ambidexterity edge.

You bunch of idiots.

-Albert

[Rory Blackhand]

I said lame fighting kata because what they are doing is bouncing sticks off each others sticks. That is not going to serve any purpose and it certainly is no way to train to kill. They don't even have headgear on. Obviously it is nothing more than fluff.

I place alot of emphasis on armor because it is that good of an asset. You have obviously never been in armor or you would not have the false opinion that armor slows you down. The weight is very evenly distributed and I am quite capable of making rapid violent moves in it. Can I sprint in it? No of course not. I assume anyone coming to a fight is going to actually stay and fight. You are way off the mark though if you think anyone can come within striking range of me and move faster than my sword arm to somehow dance around behind me in circles. That is quite ridiculous. Not to mention that I personally endurance train as well. I can run three miles in 19 minutes and 20 seconds, not a track star, but that is a pretty good clip. I do three 6 mile runs a week. I am the last person who gets tired on the battle field. And I am the last person that needs to be explained how to exercise to. I won't be stumbling after anyone. I will just patiently wait for him to come within 10 feet of me. In a tournament there are usually boundaries. And in Shadowrun there is no movement penalty for wearing an armored vest and a long coat, so what is your point anyway?

Most people are not ambidextrous either. You might feel your off hand is just dead weight. In that case I would recommend you carrying a shield instead of a second sword because if you are not able to generate a successful attack with your off hand then you are wasting your time with a second weapon in it. I don't get where you guys are using all these weapons but you never fought in the SCA before? Is this some sort of LARP experience? If you are not using weapons that weigh in accurately you are not getting realistic fighting experience.

You find my remark about weapon weight having a direct bearing on killing power ignorant? Let me try it another way since you did not bother to view the link I provided on weapon cutting power. Do you know what a butcher's knife is? It is a short heavy bladed knife that can chop thru chicken bones with one swing pretty easily. Go get your sharpest normal sized steak knife and see if you can chop thru the chicken's skin even with a single strike. It should be pretty obvious even to someone that knows nothing about weapons to figure out the difference in knives is what allowed the kill to be made. Technique has squat to do with it. Both knives can stab, but the chickens head can be removed with the heavier blade. Pretty simple logic.

And you think full plate was just made for parades and stuff? And you call me making ignorant statements? I wear half plate myself, I am pretty good at protecting my back. I would feel very comfortable fighting with live steel against an unarmored opponent, but I am not that bloodthirsty to wish a gruesome death on anyone. Where is this exactly that you are attacking an armored man? Some LARP game with foam filled pvc tubes? You don't fight heavy weapons in the SCA, I know that much for sure.

[FrostyNSO]

This 'field' is rife with ego, your's is just bigger than most. I'm not gonna argue with you anymore because you only seem to know what you're talking about in the context of what you practice.

[Rory Blackhand]

I don't have an ego problem. I am completly at ease with myself and what I have done. I have literaly fought thousands of full contact duels and wars in practices and tournaments. Armed combat is what I know. Start talking balistics, cars, or computers and I am dumb as a rock.

That you just threw me an insult kind of bugs me since you don't really know anything about me, but it's all good. Opinions vary. My only argument is that two katanas can easily be used effectively and there is historical proof that they were, let alone that one of the roleplaying suggestions on page 6 of the Shadowrun Companion says you can design a character background around your own self and if I did that I would be able to use two katanas hands down. It is cool though. You tried to shoot me down when I know damn well I am right and I tried my best to find useful links to back up my claim.

I guess this means you won't be explaining where you got 9 years of training in a rare martial art form that is not taught outside of Japan except in a very few places, huh?

[FrostyNSO]

Your right I should've kept the ego comment to myself so I apolagize for that.

If you can use two katana simultaniously then do it. We train with 2 full-size swords, but when I fight I use a long and short. I know it can be done. You have what works for you, I have what works for me.

Now I wouldn't agree with two nodachi or anything (even with a troll, because I would figure a troll would use troll-modified nodachi)

As far as finding links to support your claims, just becasue you find something on the internet doesn't mean it's entirely accurate. There are many aspects of Niten Ichi Ryu that you will not find on the internet, and in actuality, I have read translations of 'Five Rings' that have been radically different from one another as well.

If you need to know, I trained when I was based in Japan, I have since left and now I pursue it on my own. A lot of that includes full-contact sparring and trial/error, so in that respect I can understand your SCA style. Only when I am alone do I do kata, which are actually intended to maintain proper weapon control and technique. I do a lot of tameshigiri as well, and in the case of the japanese sword, weight does not equate to cutting power. Technique equates to cutting power. This is contrary to western blades which (quite a few) deliver 'chopping' blows, but that is just how the swords were designed to work. Either way, an excessively heavy sword (this depends on what you can handle) will slow you down.

A japanese sword was not meant to cut through a medieval knight's armor and in most cases probably wouldn't. We can talk semantics all day, but I'd rather not.

It doesn't matter either way because all the fights I've been in have been gunfights. In all my years I'd say I use my combat knife for mundane stuff 99.9% of the time.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Just to get a thread that has way outlived its usefulness to be closed down:

You really think the kind of fighting styles you learn through SCA are superior to all other melee fighting styles a person can learn in this day and age? Would you say, then, that someone trained in historically accurate sword fighting styles wouldn't stand a chance against someone who's trained through SCA?

I have a bit of a problem believing this. For example the schools teaching Italian style swordmanship base their stuff on methods established by people who had fought for their lives innumerable times and shared their wisdom with a dozen others who had also. Styles which are based on one thing only: how to kill the enemy as soon as possible. These employ tactics such as "concentrating unarmed attacks to the groin when fighting against males", or striking with a sword in such a way as to force the enemy to be in a 90 degree angle towards you and then following with a kick to the knee, or at which angles you should thrust with a sword to get under the plates protecting the upper arm, etc.

My understanding is that SCA doesn't teach stuff like that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but SCA fighting is based on either a system of which kind of hits and where count as a kill, ie you don't clubber each other until the other passes out (which would be more realistic, but still far from the conditions that would end a real fight).

I know which guy I'd want defending my friends&family, too.

[JaronK]

I should mention where I'm coming from in all this... I'm an actor, who's trained with a variety of weapons (off the top of my head: Broadsword, Greatsword, Rapier, Sabre, Epee, Case of Rapiers, Rapier and Dagger, Quarterstaff) for stage combat purposes, as well as a variety of Eastern weapons (Katana, Kama, Bo, Jo) as part of my Tae Kwon Do training, and I've had a great deal of circus training (Poi Balls, Bull Whips, etc are relevent here). I've also fenced with Sabres, Foils, and Epees. As a result, I'm very used to the feel of actual weapons, the ways they're meant to be used. A pair of Katana sized weapons is a legitimate weapon combination, but it's by no means easy, and when working with them I find that my offhand strikes are little more than distractions... they'd score points in a match, but they wouldn't penetrate very well. By using fluid motions learned mostly from Poi Balls, I've been able to up the strength of the attacks, but it's still hard to make things work properly, and I'm not convinced that duel weilding Katanas is any more effective than using a single one in combat. Now, duel weilding rapiers is a whole other story... they're easy to weild that way. The offhand rapier is often in more of a defensive role, but it's definitely usable.

I find that that offhand is much more suitable for blocking, distracting attacks, and short stabbing attacks than it is for slashing blows, since such large attacks detract from mainhand effectiveness and are often significantly weaker. As such, I'd have to agree that except in extream cases, it's better to weild a short weapon offhand (short sword, parrying dagger, etc.) than a full sized one. There are exceptions to every rule, though, and since this is a fanatasy game we're talking about, it seems logical to allow such things.

JaronK

[Rory Blackhand]

Apolgy accepted Frosty, I am not here to step on anyone's toes. I just want to ask a few questions now and then about this cool game we all play. If you felt I was rude then I apologize as well.

If a troll was going to customize a two handed weapon built for trolls, like a 9' claymore for example, should it do progressively more damage like the other weapons of the same type do? Example, knife to sword to katana to Claymore. They are all bigger edged weapons that do more damage. I'm not planning to use that, but if a troll could use no dachi and katana as a two sword style, does that sound reasonable? To simulate katana wakizashi.

And maybe Japanese blades are not best suited for two sword style because they lack a reverse cutting edge like the bastard swords I use do, but as a character concept I think they would just be cooler. Like a scene from Matrix. I visualize my fantasy character hopefully slicing up the competition like a whirling blender with both of his blades moving faster than the eye can see, etc.. For that to happen there would have to be a little bit of flexibility here. In fact I don't even see the wakizashi listed? Is this a sword? Or a knife? It's not a Cougar Fine Blade, so I assume it just an incomplete chart not meant to be the end all of two weapon fighting.

Austere Emancipator, to answer your question yes. I do absolutely feel that the SCA can produce the best melee fighter in the world today. I would not say that just anyone trained in the SCA would be able to defeat a trained fighter of any particular period in time though.

Humans are constantly getting stronger, faster, and more skilled as we gain access to information, training techniques, and nutrition not available to any ancient fighter. All you have to do to see proof is to look at olympic records being broken for the past 100 years. They estimate that about 1 out of every 3 or 4 humans that have ever lived are alive today. We have a much larger genetic stock to choose from and consequently compete with for the title of who is best at a certain task. And with information storage and access we are able to quickly determine which training techniques work and which don't in producing champions. In short, we have advanced training that the ancients would be in awe of. This is why I say that with our nutrition, knowledge, training techniques, and sheer numbers of competition I feel very comfortable with the idea that modern man is better able to produce a talented swordsman or anything else than any ancient culture.

That said, is there the motivation to do so? There are some outrageously good fighters, blinding speed and reaction, powerful execution, flawless defense. I am talking about a class of men above the normal. Maybe 10 in all that have dedicated their lives to combat and are every bit masters of their craft as any martial artist. There is no stone unearthed. If there is a manual on how to fight it was looke at. The SCA is not a perfect training medium, nothing is short of the real thing. But I have seen broken bones on multiple occasions. Is that real enough for you? It is unrealistic to think a wooden sword would be able club anyone down to unconsciousness. I knocked someone out in a practice once, but never had it happen again. Broken bones? Lots of them. You sign a waiver and you enter at your own risk.

JaronK, that is pretty cool. I would love to have a job sword fighting. My goal someday is to revolutionize the sport of sword fighting in Thailand when I move there to retire. I will be without a doubt using two long swords with full contact sparring gear.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Xirces]

[toturi]

Even without the Ambidex rules or 2 hand fighting rules, you can already use 2 cyber-implant weapons and get a benefit from it. And THAT's just with the BBB.

[Kagetenshi]

[Rory Blackhand]

Austere Emancipator, you sound interested enough in SCA combat to give it a try? It is really cool. You will get a real idea what it was like back then. The weapons are not padded though! The swords have to be 1 1/4" across minimum. I go heavier than this though. I have gone as much as 2 3/8" with a short sword. That was for melee fighting only when I use a shield and want a brick to manuever inside a tangle of spears and flailing polearms and still have the weight to make a good solid kill. A kill, by the way, is a solid blow that would have penetrated chainmail over boiled leather. Any light hit is not counted. That is why it is full speed. You want to hit hard. And if you did not wear armor you would get your brains beat out of your skull.

As far as Shadowrun goes. You are correct, two katanas is not giving me any more bonus over just buying a knife and katana, it actualy costs more money and is less concealable. It is pure roleplaying and style. Forget Musashi, I want to be me. I am not wanting to squeeze another bonus out of the game. If I was doing that I would go morning star and whip, both one handed reach two weapons and both on the proper list.



You get to add half your strength to the damage code when using two cyberweapons. That is an awesome bonus if you have a high strength.



Kagetenshi, there are fighting groups in the Boston area I can put you in touch with? They probably have a few ladies who will be about your speed as well. Origionaly you said you were not strong enough to wield two long swords (as if you had ever tried), I have seen ladies do it and say that I believe you can as well, but then you call me a liar, so I assume you are suffering from a serious lack of confidence in your own prowess? Maybe they have an 18 year old woman you can spar with? Be about your speed from the way I understand you to say.

[Kagetenshi]

I've used two swords (actual metal. Bad swords, so they were heavier than they should have been, but not by that much), and they were a damn sight shorter than 50".

If you want me to believe you can use even a single 50" sword effectively one-handed, give me some proof. That's some serious leverage to be applying with one hand.

~J

[Xirces]

[Kagetenshi]

Because a lot of armed fighting styles teach one-weapon use, even with small weapons, while I'm unaware of a fighting style that uses just one arm.

~J

[Austere Emancipa...]

[BitBasher]

I'm unaware of a weapon fighting style that doesn't also have you using your off hand, and other limbs to strike with when necessary. Unless the weapon is two handed only I dont see that anything is different.

I just think the mechanic for using a second weapon in SR pretty well sucks anyway. That's why I don't use it. I let it up the power some but NOT add 50% more dice.

[FrostyNSO]

I've found Aiki-Jiujitsu to complement my one-weapon fighting immensely =)

If you wanted to make a 9-foot troll claymore, I would keep the damage code the same for game balance issues. The troll is already going to need (relative to a human) hight strength to use it, which will up the power itself.

As far as the two sword thing, toss the rules as long as your players and you think it's reasonable =)

[JaronK]

You know, having weilded a real broadsword before (for stage combat purposes... it was dulled but otherwise completely acurate) I'm not sure those things could be weilded offhand by anything but a giant. I mean, they tire you out weilding them in just your mainhand... we mostly used them two handed for that very reason. Broadswords are heavier than Katanas... I really don't buy that anyone small could duel weild those things if they were of correct weight.

JaronK

[mfb]

i'd disagree. i don't doubt that you know your way around a weapon, but it doesn't sound like you've spent hours and hours every day doing nothing but swinging your weapon at a wooden post, the better to build up the muscles you use for swinging a sword. try that, four hours a day for a month, and you might find that swinging that broadsword becomes a bit easier.

[Rory Blackhand]

Yes, the hits have to be hard on any part of the body to be a kill. Neck, groin, head, are all legal targets and require a blow hard enough to pierce the armor as I said. Basicly anywhere in the torso and head is a kill. If you are hit in the arm or leg you lose the use of that limb. They do allow you to fight from a kneeling position when you lose a leg, but if you lose a sword arm and are not ambidexterous that is about the end of it for you. This is where you get a chance to win some respect though. It is not required or expected, but many fighters will throw a little mock blow on a matching limb of their own and return the fight to equal parity. Some tournaments award points for chivalry. and sometimes the best prize of a tournament is not the award given for winning it. I have collected a few nice momentos for my honorable actions. It is nothing that is kept track of or anything, but people remember you and I like to think I can beat a man fairly with any handicap imposed. Thrusts need to be landed with the same force, except directly in the face. The minimum spacing for an armored grill or eye slot is 1", since the minimum diameter of a sword can be 1 1/4" it is quite possible a freak accident could occur where your steel cage bent and a powerful thrust might be able to penetrate to the eye area. A face thrust is the only strike that is allowed to be of a lesser force, but only for the sword point a slash across the face still has to have the same power to cut thru chain to be a kill. The SCA is divided into different kingdoms and some outlaw face thrusts all together, which is a somewhat unrealistic approach, but a judgment based on real world safety. After all is said and done we do want to walk away and shake the hands of our noble opponents.

As far as pommel and cross guard punches, you are allowed to design your weapon with this capability. Your shield can be used offensively as well, but any thrusting area has to have compression, in other words a small amount of foam needs to be placed on thrusting tips only and on polearms longer than 7 1/2', this includes the surface edge of any shield to be used offensivly.

Unfortunately there is no gripping the opponent's blade. If you do your arm is considered useless as your hand was just chopped off. No grappling either. You can come up behind an opponent in melee and pin his arms, but it would be considered unchivalrous to throw him to the ground.

I don't think the Fins are big into this sort of thing, which is a shame considering your viking history. I think you will just have to settle for being the best troops fielded in WWII.

[JaronK]

With your left hand, while weilding another with your right? I haven't been training with it as you say, but I'm no weakling either... it's not an easy task!

JaronK

[mfb]

well, sure. if it was easy, everyone'd do it!

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Sesix]

Um, wtf? Butcher knives can not stab, I would like to see one that could, but alas they cant. Chop yes. Stab no. Steak knife can stab, very true. Also the death blow on yer chicken had nothing to do with the weight of the weapon. It was what the weapon was made for, to "chop" the head off of yer chicken. The steak knife would have to be used entirely different to get the kill, thus technique is brought in, not weight of a weapon.

[FrostyNSO]

Just a note on stage weapon use:

Most stage weapons are made a little bit thicker to withstand the rigors of stage combat like edge-on-edge blocks (yikes) and the like. Of course this increases the weight of the blade.

That might be why some express difficulty in using one in their off-hand.

I have handled broadswords that were superbly balanced and not very heavy at all. Most 'real' broadswords will have a distil taper (and sometimes a fuller) which further reduces the weight of the blade.

[JaronK]

The weapons I was using were of proper weight... if anything they were a bit lighter, for easier swinging (they're intended to be used by actors, not knights!). Remember, a broadsword was basically an overglorified club, not a slightly larger rapier.

JaronK

[FrostyNSO]

Like how heavy are we talking? The ones I held were about 3 to 3.5 lbs...actually they weren't really broadswords but something inbetween a broad and longsword.

[JaronK]

Hard to say exactly. These things were about, I dunno, 3.5 feet long, give or take (it's been a while and I'm working from memory) and weighed enough that while at first they felt light, after a few hours of drilling with them we were glad to be able to use two hands with them, and when making quick manuevers one hand just didn't have enough grip or strength to make them stay graceful, as it were. Plus, many of the moves relied on raw power to get things done.

JaronK

[Bölverk]

[Austere Emancipa...]

Someone linked this here some time back, really nifty.

Yes, you get a lot of 50" rapiers. That's very, very different from broadswords, long swords, etc. They're far lighter, and they're not supposed to be used for chopping, certainly not through armor anyway.

And yes, you get some 50" hand-and-a-half, bastard and longswords as well, though not nearly as many as rapiers. Those are seriously not meant to be wielded offhand by Average Joe, though.

[KarmaInferno]

Maybe I'm just clueless here, but...

SCA fighting, for all it's complexity and skill, is a combat simulation, not actual lethal-force kill-the-other-guy-dead kind of combat.

It scores kills based on arbitrary rules and guidelines that don't always mesh with what really happens in a live steel swordfight. (Like the aforementioned sword blade grab)

So... wouldn't SCA fighting be not so good to be using as an example, for figuring lethal fighting styles in Shadowrun?

Kinda like figuring out ballistics information of a weapon off playing Counterstrike...


-karma

[JaronK]

More like trying to figure modern warfare tactics by playing paintball, really.

JaronK

[mfb]

to a point. the interconnect between actual stabbery and SCA fighting is a lot closer, however, simply because SCA fighting uses the same engine as real fighting--that is, learning how to swing a padded club of the appropriate weight is closely analogous to swinging a sword. after all, how do you think soldiers and whatnot trained, back in the day? you think they spent all day hacking off each others' limbs with real weapons, just for training, or do you think maybe they picked up sticks that matched the weight of their swords?

at the same time, there's no substitute for honest-to-god combat, for putting the finishing touches on your training. that's one of the main advantages a real knight would have over an SCA fighter, in a real fight--the knight, if he's seen a battle or two, knows what to expect when he sticks his sword in someone. he knows where to stab, so that his weapon doesn't get tangled in his opponent's ribcage, and how to work his blade out if it does get stuck in a bone. in a sparring match, i'd put even odds on the SCA fighter; in a real throwdown, i'm gonna go with the guy who's been in more real fights.

[FrostyNSO]

actually, Jaron, there is something worthwhile in that. A lot of what we use now for training are sims, cartriges that fire small paint pellets. They'll go through bushes and everything. The only downside is that you still can't shoot through concealment like doors, thin walls, car doors.

Paintball is ok, but you can't learn the difference between cover and concealment which admittedly is a highly important thing tactically.

[JaronK]

Well, you can definitely learn some real warfare tactics playing paintball, too. I mean, you're really out there, you're really shooting, etc. However, certain variables are different (no real fear, bullets don't fly as far, the people are different, the emotional quality is different, etc.) which means that sometimes you can develop tactics that work great in paintball but not in real life.

JaronK

[mfb]

heh, the same thing happens with MILES (suped-up laser tag). at one point in an engagement, i laid down flat on my back and laid down suppressive fire. i was being fired on by ten different guys, but none of them could hit me because they couldn't get a direct bead on my sensors.

[FrostyNSO]

Yeah, and the lasers diffuse over a larger area at long range, so we'd be fools not to mention the consistant hits at 300 yards with iron sights =)

[mfb]

i shall insist to my dying day that the accuracy of my MILES is due to my own extreme proficiency. and just ignore the fact that i fired 50 rounds from a 30-round clip !!

[Kagetenshi]

Skillz.

Hey, if you ever find yourself in a movie, you'll be well-trained.

~J

[Rory Blackhand]

KarmaInferno, you are a bit off the mark. First I am not using the SCA to base rules off of. I provided links to at least three different places where two long swords were used in real fighting in history. I simply pointed out that I have personally used two long swords in battle and have seen anyone that tries to use long sword short sword get bested pretty easily. From my personal experience two long swords are much deadlier than long sword, short sword. Second, just because somebody does not make a kill in training does not mean they would be unable to defeat someone who has fought and killed. That would blow away the concept behind spending three months in boot camp training our troops to hunt for Al Qaeda, who may have had years of real combat experience, but die just as easily when matched against our Rangers and Marines who have never killed anyone or even been under fire before. The evidence just does not support your assumption.

True enough there are no blade grabs and other fancy one in a zillion fight maneuvers, but the difference between a real fight and an SCA fight is as very minimal. It offers the same realism or more as live firing on the rifle range to train for combat, using paint balls, or MARS gear would for close order battle. I don't have to get burned to know fire is hot.

There are no modern swordsmen on earth better prepared to fight a real battle than those trained in the SCA. Training with wooden swords is exactly what the ancients did to prepare for fighting and that is what we do. It is a mute point to argue what would happen if we had to face ancient soldiers. I feel supremely confident myself that I could have been an asset in any army from any period if I could have had access to the same training methods, same nutrition, same exercise, etc.. as I have now. Without all of that I doubt I would be anything special, in fact I would be dead several times over, I was hit so hard in the mid section with a spear thrust I wanted to puke, from 15 feet away I had an archer nail me in the right side in an unarmored location as I raised me sword up to swing on anther man, it is not pleasant to be drilled in the rib cage with a marshmallow sized hard rubber arrow tip from that close. I would have been gutted by the spear, lost a lung by an arrow, or killed by any one of thousands of sword hits i have suffered, simply put, I would not have lived thru it.

They say less than half the soldiers in WWII even fired their weapons. It was probably the same way back then. Life was not one endless combat after another. You were probably not on the front rank every time either. All I really care about is making a point that two equal length one handed weapons can be used in Shadowrun. There is no mystery to it and the rule is really dumb if you have to pick from that limited listing in Canon.

[Rory Blackhand]

And to back JarodK's assumptions. My arms were dead tired too the first time I used two swords in practice. You get used to anything. A shield weighs ten times more though and your arm will feel like lead if you try using a tower shield all day.

I am a stronger than average person with great endurance. I could see having a strength minimum for wielding each type of weapon and they would of course add if you were going to use them both in combat. That system would not add much extra math. Where it would get complicated to me would be using two whips as the rules allow. Maybe that would fall under minimum dexterity instead.

[Austere Emancipa...]

I already went through the reasons why I would bet on the guy who's been trained to fight with real weapons in real combat over the guy who's been trained to do SCA fighting. They're pretty solid, and it doesn't seem any of them have been refuted.

The MILES-comparison is very fitting IMO. A person who's never been through any military training and only done a lot of MILES matches is not what I'd call the Perfect Soldier. I would personally believe someone who's done a lot less MILES and a lot more general military training over him in matters concerning the optimal amount of riflemen/automatic riflemen/grenadiers/dedicated marksmen in an infantry squad.

But then I'd allow Swords as off-hand weapons anyway. Meh.

[FrostyNSO]

I don't understand how the long-short combination is so inferior to a long-long combination. You are sacrificing a little distance for that much more speed. Before you give me the "I'm just as fast with a long sword as a short sword" routine, I understand that maybe you are, but the point is that in order to deflect a blow, or deliver a strike for that matter, your blade must be in the right place at the right time. This is a function of skill, blade length has little to no bearing on this.

Now I have practiced mostly japanese swordsmanship against many other forms of japanese and asian weaponry, including chinese weaponry which is in many ways similar to european medieval weaponry. Maybe that you've seen people using long-short combinations get bested is simply that they were not as skilled as their opponent who happens to use a long-long combo. If you are as good as you say you are, could this not be a valid argument?

We are going to have to just agree to disagree on this matter. In my experience, there is no difference in striking or deflecting with a long or short blade. Blades are not weapons, they are tools, and it is only the skill of the user that makes them weapons.

BTW, I would just say use whatever you want in your offhand. I once thought about making a Troll with a Musashi fix that used two chainsaws =)

[Rory Blackhand]

To prepare a soldier to kill, the stimulus in practice should be an enemy soldier in the soldiers sights. The target behavior should be to accurately fire their weapons at another human being. There should be immediate feedback when they hit a target, and there should be rewards for performing these specific functions, or punishment for failing to do so. This is impossible for modern ranged combat, but not for SCA style fighting. SCA combat is like a flight simulator in that you can hit with full force using a wooden weapon of the same weight as a steel sword and see an instant effect on the target and how the human body took the force of the blow. The reward and mental motivation to give it your all also being winning and advancing in tournaments. The punishment from making a mistake in this sort of realistic training is often times severe pain even on rare occasion broken limbs. This pain when you make a mistake instantly reinforces the need to correct and adjust your fighting technique. I can't think of any greater motivator than pain avoidance in practice.

Here is an article about a reporter who had never fired a gun before, but played arcade games pretty good. He was able to knock holes in a target pretty well even on his very first time. This is high tech training that would have been impossible to achieve in Napoleonic times for instance.

http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/reso...d_clean_fun.cfm

[QUOTE]I already went through the reasons why I would bet on the guy who's been trained to fight with real weapons in real combat over the guy who's been trained to do SCA fighting. They're pretty solid, and it doesn't seem any of them have been refuted.[QUOTE]

Austere Emancipator, what exactly have you previously covered? I missed anything "solid" in your argument. The schools teaching Italian style swordmanship have major flaws. They use lightweight swords that would be useless in a battle. Nor am I aware of any that tech grappling and fancy sword catching techniques as you claim. Certainly not against an opponent weilding a claymore, a bow, a spear, a pole arm, or a tower shield like the SCA fighters rountinely face. Those training techniques are for one way of fighting only and have very little to do with real fighting in armored combat let alone vs a variety of weapon forms. If I am wrong maybe you could please link to a school that does. There were also vocal critics even in their own day and age who scoffed at the uselessness of those schools as it pertained to the battefield. Alot of real fighters looked down on these fencers as powdered dandies. You make it sound as if every duel they fought ended in a death, which is very far from the truth. There were very strict rules in any event thru any fighting sport. These tournaments were not for killing, they had strict rules and regulations to prevent accidents. They of course were not as concerned for safety back then as we are now, so the use of wooden weapons is quite appropriate for battle simulation.

I guarantee that SCA combat is a close to real as it gets, if we used real steel there would be numerous deaths and maimings in every event or we would have to change the full speed rules and get rid of thrusting altogether. And "clubbering down" as you suggest is not realistic at all. A plate armored man is quite safe from a wooden weapon. Clubbing someone down would take hours and invlove grappling and techniques not realistic for actual combat. If you would prefer an Italian fencer to defend your friends and family in a real fight I feel sorry for them if they have to face SCA trained warriors.

You also mention matching someone who has been trained SCA style vs other styles. I have already explained that I have fought many men trained in alot of techniqes, none have been able to beat me using weapons that are historicly correct in weight. I have been beaten when I took the armor off and sparred with flimsy cane and bamboo swords. These were no more realistic than Star Wars fantasy light sabers to me, though and of no value to real life whatsoever except as a rest from the real hard exertion of heavy combat.

[QUOTE]Because I don't know exactly what does count as a kill in SCA fighting, I cannot give you any details on how one's approach to combat would have to change when going from padded clubs with rules to sharp & pointy things with no rules.[/QUOTE]

In fact from your own words, you do not have a clue how SCA fighting works yet are quick to pass judgment over me even though I have experienced a variety of combat systems myself and have stated so. Did you view any of the video links I provided? You erroneously think there would have to be a change of some sort to add realism to SCA fighting. And you falsely believe that our swords are padded. They are not padded. They are built to length and weight that is historically accurate. In the SCA you have to wear armor because we do not accept these tippy tappy little shots. Pulling your punches will only develop bad form. You can ask any martial arts instructor to verify this. Any school that allows hitting will demand head gear or disallow shots to the head and throat. There is a semi full contact form of stick fighting in the philippines though that I believe you enter at your own risk, but the swords are still very light wood. Not much more than getting an old fashioned cane whipping from your grandma.

[QUOTE]If someone learns sword fighting from the manuals, I no longer call him a pure SCA fighter. At that point, his (theoretical) performance in a real fight with real weapons can largely be attributed to his understanding of those historically accurate, real-world viable tactics.[QUOTE]

If you are talking about western style martial arts very little "manuals" have survived. Learning to read and write was not seen as a proper skill for a man of war until mass printing became available in later centuries. I read somewhere that less than 100 exist from pre 1600. Which coincides with the age of firearms around 1650, that brought an end to the need for the expense and encumberance of wearing armor. Consequently, these so called real fighting schools you speak of are mostly based on unarmored dueling techniques, which have no bearing on reality considering the fact that heavy armor existed at the time these schools were in vogue and also the development of kevlar in the 1960s wich once again made armor a valuable investment for the battlefield soldier.

This applies to the Shadowrun environment where armor is a factor and where SCA fighting techniques would most definitely win the day over any fencing or light weapon styles taught today. Maybe mono technology based weapons should be deadlier?

Other than that, I have answered many of your questions already. Wrestling is not allowed, but even if it were, what are you going to drop to have an open hand to grab me with? Your sword or your shield? I am blasting you in the hand if you reach for me and with my weapons I doubt you have a limb left if you do. Grabbing my blade is just as dumb. I have a basket hilt on my sword that gives me immense leverage for pulling, pushing, punching, and blocking with. You are going to grab a tapered end of my razor sharp sword and I will just draw it quickly back removing a few of your fingers. If you think you are going to trap it like Steven Seagal does in the movies you need to think again. Every technique that is realistic is allowed. You can do shield bashes, entangle weapons with your own, slash, thrust, bash, you name it. No location is illegal except below the knee for safety. So, even though you think these little maneuvers could "easily" change the outcome of a fight, the fact remains that they wouldn't and there is no evidence I have seen to support that they would. Maybe you could give me a link or a video clip from one of these training schools you are referring to as I have done? I would like to examine them for my own. Not just for argument sake, I am always looking for something to improve my own fighting and I would like to see if I have missed something over the last 25 years or so.

[QUOTE]You guys have gloves/gauntlets that protect the palm, right? Really silly rule.[QUOTE]

If you knew anything about gauntlets you would realize that the back of the hand is armored, not the inside. Not so silly if you are thinking realistic.

Canton of Hukka (Helsinki area, Finland)
Canton of Humalasalo (Hameenlina, Valkeakoski, Tampere, Finland)
Canton of Kaarnemaa (Oulu, Finland)
Incipient Canton of Miehonlinna (Kouvola, Valkeala, Kuusankoski, Finland)
Canton of Poukka (Kotka, Finland)
Canton of Unikankare (Turku, Finland)

These are SCA groups in Finland. Why don't you go try it out? You say you know half the members of your Canton. Give it a good few hours of fighting and see how hard it is to kill a veteran warrior. Not sure how many people you have over there or how good they are without the competition we have here? But it would be worth a try just to see how it is.

Just for your own reference. There are several type of sword fighting:

There is Performance Combat, where the fights are mostly choreographed in tightly controlled acting scenes using historically accurate weapons and armor.

There is Re-Creational Combat, where actual battles are reproduced with varying degrees of success. Weapon use is mostly limited to blunted weapons and alot of hitting shields and each other's weapons.

There is Martial-Sport Combat, where it is full speed, full contact, with a bare minimum set of rules for safety. This is where the SCA falls. Some people say it is not a martial art. In the sense that there is no one art form being used, I agree. To the point that a martial art's purpose is to train it's practicioners for real combat, then I absolutely disagree. This sport produces quality athletes and realistic simulation in heavy warfare techniques.

Markland Medieval and Renaissance society, The Empire of Chivalry and Steel, Medieval Battling Club, Historical Armed Combat Association, and a few others use padded weapons and various rules for scaring hits and off limit target areas. Maybe you are mistaking the Society For Creative Anachronism for one of these? Totaly different, but still under the heading of martial-sport fighting.

There is Live-Action Fantasy Gaming, where padded foam weapons and fantasy roleplaying and character generation is the focus of the group.

There are Traditional Martial Arts, where very little emphasis is placed on armored combat or full speed striking against resisting opponents. An exception is Kendo and fencing. Neither school accurately depict real combat though, except for in lightly armored or unarmored fighting venues.

For overall versatility, experience in defending against archers, spearmen, pikemen, swordsmen, shield walls, and all manner of warfare there simply is no better training ground than the SCA. The lack of fear of death is there. The lack of the kill is there. But the realism in practical use is. This is where I have learned to fight two weapon and I know it works.

[FrostyNSO]

I am curious, why are there no blows below the knee? It seems that people can get injured just as easily above the knee anyways.

I'm not trying to nit-pick here, but I wondered. They have excavated a lot of old warrior tombs (particularly scandinavian and danish "viking" tombs) and discovered that a great many wounds were in fact in the head and below the knees (coincidentally the areas not as well protected by a shield which was the bread and butter of viking fighting art). Why would the SCA not allow these low strikes?

[Rory Blackhand]

sorry for the double post

[Rory Blackhand]

Frosty, the long long is superior in my opinion and from what I have witnessed in the field. Blade length has everything to do with it. The fact that a long weapon is usable at any range with full effect makes two attacking weapons at long range better than one. It makes simple sense that if 2 fighters facing each other are dual wielding swords the fighter with two long blades will be able to use twice the offense at long range, an equal or better offense at medium range, and an equal offense at short range. And many develop footwork and a fighting retreat style to take advantage of this. Yes you can outrun someone if you are sprinting forward and they are backing up. But with room to fight, it is not that hard to keep yourself at range while threatening your opponent's advance. Most opponents are not suicidal enough to just rush in without using caution. If they do they die pretty quickly technique and all. All the striking skill in the world will not save you if you leave yourself open to be killed before you strike the first blow, and with a shorter weapon that is just as likely to be what happens to you as you close in.

As far as parrying goes. it is a two way street. To parry with a long blade is easier. So it takes less skill? If I have 40" of blade surface extending from my hand I do not need to move it very far to block a slashing attack aimed at going over the tip of my blade to attack my head. A short sword wielding fighter with a blade surface of 16" has to move his blade more than twice as far to block incoming slashes. I would rather trust to a larger surface area to act as a passive always on defense than to my own reaction and timing. No matter how fast you are there is always someone faster and speed as nothing to do with generating killing power. The larger surface area of a long blade will parry 10 times more attacks that can't be reacted to in time for than a short blade would. In fact a 40" blade held out in front of the body with the tip up will just about eliminate the threat of a slash to the upper body coming from an angle of attack parallel to the ground. A good stance will compensate for a lack of focus in this situation. Your short blade will leave you at the mercy of feints where my long blade will not.

The speed advantage of your smaller blade is not a significant factor. Cutting ability will be though. If you use a small and light blade the best you may be able to do against an armored opponent is thrust. That will limit the angle of attack and versatility of the blade. If you use a blade heavy enough that can make a slashing kill as well it will have to be heavier and you will be right back to square one with no speed advantage at all, only a length deficit. That said I have used a shorter blade! I will use a shorter blade for bridge battles or portal assault. What happens in a full on press is that you will be compacted into a tangled, chaotic, mass of weaponry and flailing limbs. If you are a shieldman on the front rank you will have a row of spear and polearms fighting over your shoulder. The enemy will in turn be stabbing and chopping at you with their own polearms as well. When you hit their line, shield on shield, there is alot of pushing, shouting, and confusion. The space overhead will be quite a mass of weapons. This is the only instance I ever bring a short weapon to battle. A mace with the heavy tip, an axe you can grab the opponent's shield with and drag it downward to expose him for one of your own spearmen and the short sword to thread it's way thru the maze and find some targets. It takes more than just to be able to touch the enemy with a weapon, you have to find enough open space between you and him to generate kinetic energy in your weapon. For this limited purpose I always use a much heavier blade. Consider the meat cleaver to the table knife. Both are the same length but the cleaver has the weight to cut thru armor and bones. Same principle with swords.

When I say I have seen opponents using short-long combos bested by long-long it is not that the opponents were inferior. That would be a valid point if I had only witnessed let's say maybe 10 - 20 of these matches. In fact I have never seen a long sword short sword fighter win. Some use shorter weapons, but one use weapons half the length of the long blade. What happened to me once is that I entered a tournament where the rules stated you would fight with a weapon combination pulled out of a hat to represent a gladiatorial event. I drew buckler and short sword. I have fought with both weapons, so it was not a question of being able to use them, but with that little surface area as passive defense I felt damn near naked. My opponent who I had beaten on the last nine meetings drew long sword and normal sized shield. I lasted as long as I could to massive cheering from the crowd for my aggression, but he eventually picked me apart and killed me. In fact the little sword I was given snapped in half from me trying to ward off one of his powerful blows. I imagine that is what would happen in a real fight with a an opponent trying to use a light blade.

So you say the sword is a tool. True it is. There are different tools for every job. You wouldn't use a finishing hammer to bust out a concrete driveway. Why use an inferior weapon in battle when you are trying to kill someone and your life depends on it?

[Person 404]

[BitBasher]

[Method]

I was going to write a long post but I think I can sum it up real quick:

SCA (like shadowrun) IS NOT REAL.

Seriously, guy, you're talking about guys in armor with swords defending your children? From what? Other guys in armor with swords? Does Detroit have a real problem with evil knights breaking into people's homes?

Buy a damn gun and stop living in a fantasy world.

[Kagetenshi]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[KarmaInferno]

I have one more comment to add.

If two long swords is such a frickin superior method of fighting...

You'd think in the millions of sword fights in thousands of years of battle, you'd see just a few more techniques taught using two swords, wouldn't you?



karma

[Rory Blackhand]

Method, what are you talking about? Of course the SCA is not real. What is your point? Saying that full contact fighting is not real fighting is kind of a stupid point if that is what you are getting at? That would be like saying live fire at the rifle range is useless in training a soldier how to shoot.

Do you think I am saying bandits are walking around Detroit attacking my kids? That is really out in left field too. I said I would rather take a handful of the best SCA fighters to protect my family "if we were alive back in those times" before gunpowder. Any simpleton could have figured that out.

And I have a gun, several of them. And I am a damn good shot. I was a Marine and never fired less than expert.


Austere Emancipator, you keep running your mouth about this Italian school of fighting. I asked for a link. A short video of their fighting methods maybe? Still waiting for anything but your "opinion", and you have never even tried either the SCA fighting or this ficticious Italian school that produces thousands of killers.

You think it is easy to catch a sword? You obviously have done little or no sword fighting. Unless you are talking about these "fencing" fights that have little effect against armored opponents. Close in fighting is a serious issue when you only have the top of the sword to make a kill with. There is nothing "tricky" about that. In fact, there is no "huge" list of tricks as you claim. You have zero experience and can't even produce the name of the school you are wanting me to compare with. All I have is your say so that it exists! And from what I have read that is not much evidence or support of your claim.

[Kagetenshi]

[Rory Blackhand]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Rory Blackhand]

[Rory Blackhand]

[KarmaInferno]

[Rory Blackhand]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[FrostyNSO]

Blackhand is right, Niten Ichi Ryu students do train with two long swords.

This is to make your off-hand accustomed to handling a sword simultaniously with your strong hand. However, a long and short sword combo is the preferred set for combat. This is in large part because a samurai would have a long and short sword available, but seldom two long swords.

Also, when fighting indoors, two long swords can hinder your ability.

[Rory Blackhand]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Ol' Scratch]

Rory, when it comes down to it, the SCA is the equivalence of real medieval fighting as Laser Tag is to SWAT Training. It's a total joke. So what if you guys dress up in some fake armor and prance around in a field with fake weapons reanacting some battle? That doesn't change the fact that you're in fake armor waving around fake weapons in a fake battle with people not out to kill you or defend their homeland.

If you really believe otherwise, seek help.

[Rory Blackhand]

[Digital Heroin]

Personally I'm amused anyone who hasn't ever had to fight for their life with a blade could claim they know drek all about actual martial combat...

[Rory Blackhand]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Kagetenshi]

Back on the main discussion, one thing that may have been unclear in my statements about two-weapon fighting is that I'm not saying people can't use two long swords, or can't use them apparently effectively: I'm saying that, as a technique, it is in my experience significantly bested by either sword/shield or two-handed sword. You just get that much more protection or speed and power, while moving two swords around means they're not that much better than one sword.

~J

[Botch]

After wading through all of the posts I'm horrified by the way that almost none of you will except each others points, but nevertheless.

There is one simple reason that most historical MAs don't focus on 2 long sword styles. Back then a sword cost a lot of money, MUCH MORE than it does today.

[Rory Blackhand]

[Kagetenshi]