I have a character concept in mind that requires ambidexterity to take advantage of a two weapon fighting style. If you look at the cover of Man and Machine it shows a samurai wielding 2 katanas simultaneously. I am trying to make a character on the path of becoming a "Kensai", (sword saint) and want to give him the best possible start I can to it.
I am confused by the number of differing systems to handle two weapon use though. First what is the current rule and the mechanics of how it works? Second is using two katanas acceptable? If not why not? Miyamoto Musashi used two katanas. Niten Ichi Ryu, "two heaven" style is a Kenjutsu art of two weapon use, sometimes two katanas. If not, then how about no dachi and katana for a troll sized character wishing to use this style? Is there a penalty for trolls to use two handed human sized weapons? I thought I saw a +1 penalty somewhere?
I also fight in the SCA, frequently with two long swords. The longer, the better, actualy. Anyone not familiar with the SCA, it is a "full contact" martial art using wooden weapons and real armor. I have been fighting for years. Two weapon style is common, but long sword/short sword is almost nonexistant, simply because it does not work as well as two long swords. This is not ancient history, this is real world practicality.
This link shows two long sword fighting in a tournament:
http://4th.com/photo.php?dir=sca/justin/ph...0030525-157.jpg
This link shows a grainy (sorry) video of a war, if you look carefuly you can see two weapon style being used in battle, skirmishers though, not in the main line:
http://www.romanempire.net/romepage/images...f%20movie02.asf
I am not sure on the rules, so I wanted to get some advice here. I am looking at the Canon Companion and it has variying degrees of ambidexterity edge. Is this an optional rule? To get no penalties you have to take an 8 point edge?
I would like to be able to use two swords with the least amount of penalties. I really don't care about ranged combat for this character concept. I just want to be the best two weapon swordsman possible. Any help is appreciated.
Full Version: Ambidexterity
The official rules for ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting are on pages 94 - 96 of the Cannon Companion. To use two weapons in combat with no penalties, you need an extra off-hand weapon skill, or you can take the Ambidexterity Edge (the 6 or 8 point versions let you use an off-hand weapon with your primary weapon skill). The Edge is slightly better, effectiveness-wise. Yes, you use up a lot of those precious Edge points, but subsequently you only have to improve one skill. On the roleplaying end, though, you may want to ask yourself if the character has trained himself to be good with his off-hand at everything (ambidexterity), or has learned a two-weapon fighting style but is otherwise normal-handed (an off-hand weapon skill).
Two-weapon fighting it very effective by the rules for it - you add half of your off-hand skill and half of all bonus dice that would normally apply to an off-hand skill. So take an adept with a sword who has Edged Weapons: 6 and Improved Ability/Edged Weapons: 6. Normally, that character would roll 12 dice. But with the 6-point Ambidexterity Edge, and wielding two weapons, that character would roll 18 dice. Since SR melee is essentially a dice contest, two-weapon fighters will tend to do very well. Still not as good as an adept, but adepts with two-weapon fighting are scary.
You are very correct about trolls being able to wield a two-handed weapon single-handedly with lesser penalties. Unfortunately, the rules have a list of primary and secondary weapons, which two-handed weapons are missing from for obvious reasons. So, your GM may not allow you to combine two-weapon fighting with a two-handed weapon used single-handedly - it depends on how much of a stickler for the rules he is.
If your GM uses the optional martial arts rules, you might want to get something like Kung-Fu, which lets you buy some maneuvers for weapons. The best one is Whirling, which lets you negate Friends in Melee bonuses for your opponents.
Be aware that in SR canon, the Japanese tend to be racist against metahumans to begin with, as well as sticklers for the samurai code, and a troll using two Japanese swords might quickly end up with the Hunted Flaw. You may want to stick with something like an Ares monosword and Cougar Fineblade knife - or a Chinese long sword and kris if you want to keep an oriental flavor.
Two-weapon fighting it very effective by the rules for it - you add half of your off-hand skill and half of all bonus dice that would normally apply to an off-hand skill. So take an adept with a sword who has Edged Weapons: 6 and Improved Ability/Edged Weapons: 6. Normally, that character would roll 12 dice. But with the 6-point Ambidexterity Edge, and wielding two weapons, that character would roll 18 dice. Since SR melee is essentially a dice contest, two-weapon fighters will tend to do very well. Still not as good as an adept, but adepts with two-weapon fighting are scary.
You are very correct about trolls being able to wield a two-handed weapon single-handedly with lesser penalties. Unfortunately, the rules have a list of primary and secondary weapons, which two-handed weapons are missing from for obvious reasons. So, your GM may not allow you to combine two-weapon fighting with a two-handed weapon used single-handedly - it depends on how much of a stickler for the rules he is.
If your GM uses the optional martial arts rules, you might want to get something like Kung-Fu, which lets you buy some maneuvers for weapons. The best one is Whirling, which lets you negate Friends in Melee bonuses for your opponents.
Be aware that in SR canon, the Japanese tend to be racist against metahumans to begin with, as well as sticklers for the samurai code, and a troll using two Japanese swords might quickly end up with the Hunted Flaw. You may want to stick with something like an Ares monosword and Cougar Fineblade knife - or a Chinese long sword and kris if you want to keep an oriental flavor.
Sorry man, but a long and short sword is much better for hand to hand, it gives you depth that you can't achieve with two long swords.
You can't just smack the guy with your sword, all of your cuts must be delivered with proper technique. When your up-close (and I mean sometimes your bodies are together), you can deliver a far more effective cut with a short blade than a long one.
The big disadvantage of two long swords is that your opponent can close width like I just mentioned.
BTW, I have studied Niten Ichi Ryu for 9 years now.
You can't just smack the guy with your sword, all of your cuts must be delivered with proper technique. When your up-close (and I mean sometimes your bodies are together), you can deliver a far more effective cut with a short blade than a long one.
The big disadvantage of two long swords is that your opponent can close width like I just mentioned.
BTW, I have studied Niten Ichi Ryu for 9 years now.
anyone wielding 2 weapons is shot on sight
My only character who really used swords used gladuious and a manhunter for his two weapon fighting. It was totally sweet.
| QUOTE |
| Anyone not familiar with the SCA, it is a "full contact" martial art |
No. The SCA is in no way, shape, form, or idea a martial art. The SCA, Society for Creative Anachronism, is an organization of people that like to reenact pre-17th-century Europe.
To some it's a hobby, so some a way of life, to some a way to meet loose women that like to get drunk and have promiscuous sex (they used to be be called wenches, now we just call them sluts).
| QUOTE |
| using wooden weapons and real armor. |
By real armor I am assuming you mean lightweight steel and/or aluminum as real armor, by the time period, is going to be all steel and incredibly heavy.
| QUOTE |
| I have been fighting for years. Two weapon style is common, but long sword/short sword is almost nonexistant, simply because it does not work as well as two long swords. This is not ancient history, this is real world practicality. |
You are correct, this is not ancient history. unfortunately this is also not real world practicality. If you wish to use real work practicality then you will use a light sword and a dagger in your off hand (rapier and main gauche) or two butterfly swords (about 19 1/2" long) or maybe two short swords (about 30" long).
Next time you may not want to use incorrect data for your real world practicality.
-Wolf
Back to the original topic, axes and hammers or picks make good combo weapons. The Picts loved them and hacked up Romans and other invaders for hundreds of years. They have the advantages of natural hooks and they work at medium and short ranges. On the other hand, there is zero finesse, just raw brutality.
My question is primarily about game mechanics, using two weapons, and how it works. Glyph, thank you for taking the time to answer my question clearly and too the point.
To the rest of you; Fygg, I would shoot anyone I saw with two weapons too. Not the point, though. I am developing a character concept. Page 5 of the Companion, under "The Concept", "You can model your character after a......historic figure". I chose Musashi. What is wrong with that? He developed a trend setting style of using two swords. Like me, maybe he was ambidexterous? I throw a football and pitch with my left hand, but I write with my right.
Frosty, I disagree with you. You don't get more depth with a short sword except under very rare circumstances, like if you are locked in a closet trying to have a sword fight maybe. In that case the referee can use a little common sense and say weapons have a minimum space requirement to use. The fact is both long swords will be in play more often then not in a tournament setting for instance and your short blade will be next to useless except to block with. And since it is smaller it will even do a worse job of doing that than a long sword. I have been fighting since 1978, not steadily or even diligently, but yes, for the last 26 years. I have fought kendo experts, martial artists, olympic class fencers, and other athletes. I have beaten them all in my sport, and have been beaten when I tried theirs. You can't compare a heavy infantry sport like the SCA to a light infantry sport like kendo or fencing. Folks that are masters in one are not going to be masters in the other by default. Which one is more realistic? I will take the full contact heavy weapon training where you could be killed or crippled if you did not have armor on over the fancy dance steps of a kata based form utilizing rigid stylized sword manuevers.
The main difference I have seen between the sports are armor, weapon speed, and shot strength required to make a kill. The bokken you train with would not last one fight in my sport, nor would it be heavy enough to make an actual kill thru chain over boiled leather armor. Any hard wood would crack and shatter after three or four good hits with the power I put into my swing.
I can bench press just about 380 pounds, I am flexible, and I have great endurance. My shots can generate a good deal of force and I never tire of throwing them. I also routinely fight with two 48 inch swords and do not have any problems fighting in close or at range when I am on a tournament field. I use hard wrist snaps, like cracking a whip, to generate centrifical force to power thru my opponent's guard.
In your sport all the fighting motions are based on utilizing the weight of your sword, which is called Kissaki Kaeshi, right? To me this is funny. You think you don't need real power in combat with an armored opponent? You think you can practice to kill a man and not aim for his vitals in your sparring? You think only fighting three different ways ie, long sword on long sword, short sword on long sword, and two sword on long sword, gives you more real fighting experience than an SCA battle would where you could face anything between a spear to a battle axe and shield?
One thing I like about SCA fighting is that I can use any weapon, any combination, and any style and decide what actually works and wins a fight based off first hand experience. I have used unorthodox two weapon combos like polearm and short sword, axe and mace. and many others. Your own school's founder rejected traditional styles saying the only way to discover the right way to fight was thru personal trial and error. I can say with 100% certainty from many hours of hard hitting combat, that two long swords are good weapons up close, far away, and all points in between.
Since my blade is a long sword it has an edge on both sides. I will go chest to chest with you and strike your back with no more than a simple roll of the wrist. It is called a "wrap shot" because the sword hand actually punches past the plane of the opponent's body and the sword "wraps" around behind them as you roll your wrist sharply downward and pull into the "snap" to form a whipping motion just before contact. I have a strong wrap shot and most opponents that close with me find their back immediatly under assault and quickly move back to range or die.
On the flip side, I have tried to use the little bamboo kendo swords and don't really like it. Even a child can be proficient in kendo. It takes very little power to send those swords sailing thru the air almost faster than you can track. Not very realistic if facing an armored opponent, like Shadowrun bad guys for instance. Sure against an unarmored opponent I would probably take a Kenjutsu fighter over a heavy infantry fighter because of the speed factor. You want to take a man out by aiming for vitals instead of raw power, and that is cool when armor does not play a factor. Where you start to lose credibility is in heavy combat though. You won't deflect a bastard sword with a short sword, and if I am just as accurate at hitting as you are you won't side step it either. That leaves the raw power of my sword chopping you damn near in half vs you hoping to find a vital location with your many lighter cuts on me. You say you work on building powerful chopping power thru your rigorous training? OK, I work on building blinding speed with my long swords. I have a stack of tires in my back yard filled with dirt on a 4 x 4 post. I work for power, speed, and a crisp recovery every night. The little wrist flicks of cane fighting feels weird to me and unrealistic. In the real world we both get shot, with armor on you are dead, with no armor I am dead.
In Shadowrun we wear armor. The question and all argument has to be geared towards that fact. I have trained for hundreds of hours using two long swords, I have put it to practical use, I see it being more common than not in practical use, the list on page 96 of the Cannon Companion is not a list of every possible weapon, nor has the writer ever been in battle apparently. Musashi fought with two katanas, the cover of man and machine has a samurai wielding two katanas, film and movies, ie Matrix, Kill Bill, etc use two katanas. I don't see a problem with it? This is a fantasy game last I checked after all and the rules state the secondary weapon can't be longer than the primary.
The problem is with the list for secondary weapons. You can use two unwieldy whips, but you can't use two swords? Come on, get real. What about trolls? A katana should be no more than a big knife for a troll. You saying a troll can't use two katanas?
WolfJack, there are thousands of fighters out there that can kick your ass that would disagree with you. If you do fight in the SCA I would like you to explain that comment to Sir Bellatrix, you should know him if you are involved. If you don't fight in the SCA then you should shut up until you know what you are talking about. Yes there are costumes, yes there are women, yes there is drinking, but I, along with alot of people, do not fight for the recreation part of it. I fight for the sport and practicality of it. The eastern martial arts schools and styles do not have a monopoly on warfare. The SCA is a great proving grounds for any armed and armored combat style you can think of. If you are a martial artist I reccomend you look into it to add to your arsenol. A few of us aboard some aircraft on 9/11 could have saved alot of lives. No martial art that does not have full contact is much use in my opinion and I have fought alot of fights in my life.
If you don't think the SCA is a serious fighting group take a look at this manual. If you want to learn how to become a heavy infantryman able to kill and crush armored opponents then read it. The guy is old, but he was one of the best.
http://www.bellatrix.org/school/
The armor used is of varying types and weights. You can find light weight alloys like aluminum and not so light, like titanium chainmail. Accuracy buffs go with the steel, others get enough armor to protect against a baseball bat and live with the aluminum or rigid plastic. Point is without the armor, 14 gauge steel for head gear, you could not have a full contact sport like this with 7' wooden weapons. Not unless you want your brains bashed out of your skull.
Your short sword suggestion will do one thing in a real fight. Get you killed. Don't believe me? I live in the Detroit area. We can test it out safely with armor and wooden weapons. I guarantee you will not touch any part of my body before I can score 5 kills on you. Message me if you are interested in putting your money where your mouth is.
As a side note to everyone else. Since Cannon reworked unarmed combat. Shouldn't there be weapon styles with manuevers to represent the various armed combat schools?
To the rest of you; Fygg, I would shoot anyone I saw with two weapons too. Not the point, though. I am developing a character concept. Page 5 of the Companion, under "The Concept", "You can model your character after a......historic figure". I chose Musashi. What is wrong with that? He developed a trend setting style of using two swords. Like me, maybe he was ambidexterous? I throw a football and pitch with my left hand, but I write with my right.
Frosty, I disagree with you. You don't get more depth with a short sword except under very rare circumstances, like if you are locked in a closet trying to have a sword fight maybe. In that case the referee can use a little common sense and say weapons have a minimum space requirement to use. The fact is both long swords will be in play more often then not in a tournament setting for instance and your short blade will be next to useless except to block with. And since it is smaller it will even do a worse job of doing that than a long sword. I have been fighting since 1978, not steadily or even diligently, but yes, for the last 26 years. I have fought kendo experts, martial artists, olympic class fencers, and other athletes. I have beaten them all in my sport, and have been beaten when I tried theirs. You can't compare a heavy infantry sport like the SCA to a light infantry sport like kendo or fencing. Folks that are masters in one are not going to be masters in the other by default. Which one is more realistic? I will take the full contact heavy weapon training where you could be killed or crippled if you did not have armor on over the fancy dance steps of a kata based form utilizing rigid stylized sword manuevers.
The main difference I have seen between the sports are armor, weapon speed, and shot strength required to make a kill. The bokken you train with would not last one fight in my sport, nor would it be heavy enough to make an actual kill thru chain over boiled leather armor. Any hard wood would crack and shatter after three or four good hits with the power I put into my swing.
I can bench press just about 380 pounds, I am flexible, and I have great endurance. My shots can generate a good deal of force and I never tire of throwing them. I also routinely fight with two 48 inch swords and do not have any problems fighting in close or at range when I am on a tournament field. I use hard wrist snaps, like cracking a whip, to generate centrifical force to power thru my opponent's guard.
In your sport all the fighting motions are based on utilizing the weight of your sword, which is called Kissaki Kaeshi, right? To me this is funny. You think you don't need real power in combat with an armored opponent? You think you can practice to kill a man and not aim for his vitals in your sparring? You think only fighting three different ways ie, long sword on long sword, short sword on long sword, and two sword on long sword, gives you more real fighting experience than an SCA battle would where you could face anything between a spear to a battle axe and shield?
One thing I like about SCA fighting is that I can use any weapon, any combination, and any style and decide what actually works and wins a fight based off first hand experience. I have used unorthodox two weapon combos like polearm and short sword, axe and mace. and many others. Your own school's founder rejected traditional styles saying the only way to discover the right way to fight was thru personal trial and error. I can say with 100% certainty from many hours of hard hitting combat, that two long swords are good weapons up close, far away, and all points in between.
Since my blade is a long sword it has an edge on both sides. I will go chest to chest with you and strike your back with no more than a simple roll of the wrist. It is called a "wrap shot" because the sword hand actually punches past the plane of the opponent's body and the sword "wraps" around behind them as you roll your wrist sharply downward and pull into the "snap" to form a whipping motion just before contact. I have a strong wrap shot and most opponents that close with me find their back immediatly under assault and quickly move back to range or die.
On the flip side, I have tried to use the little bamboo kendo swords and don't really like it. Even a child can be proficient in kendo. It takes very little power to send those swords sailing thru the air almost faster than you can track. Not very realistic if facing an armored opponent, like Shadowrun bad guys for instance. Sure against an unarmored opponent I would probably take a Kenjutsu fighter over a heavy infantry fighter because of the speed factor. You want to take a man out by aiming for vitals instead of raw power, and that is cool when armor does not play a factor. Where you start to lose credibility is in heavy combat though. You won't deflect a bastard sword with a short sword, and if I am just as accurate at hitting as you are you won't side step it either. That leaves the raw power of my sword chopping you damn near in half vs you hoping to find a vital location with your many lighter cuts on me. You say you work on building powerful chopping power thru your rigorous training? OK, I work on building blinding speed with my long swords. I have a stack of tires in my back yard filled with dirt on a 4 x 4 post. I work for power, speed, and a crisp recovery every night. The little wrist flicks of cane fighting feels weird to me and unrealistic. In the real world we both get shot, with armor on you are dead, with no armor I am dead.
In Shadowrun we wear armor. The question and all argument has to be geared towards that fact. I have trained for hundreds of hours using two long swords, I have put it to practical use, I see it being more common than not in practical use, the list on page 96 of the Cannon Companion is not a list of every possible weapon, nor has the writer ever been in battle apparently. Musashi fought with two katanas, the cover of man and machine has a samurai wielding two katanas, film and movies, ie Matrix, Kill Bill, etc use two katanas. I don't see a problem with it? This is a fantasy game last I checked after all and the rules state the secondary weapon can't be longer than the primary.
The problem is with the list for secondary weapons. You can use two unwieldy whips, but you can't use two swords? Come on, get real. What about trolls? A katana should be no more than a big knife for a troll. You saying a troll can't use two katanas?
WolfJack, there are thousands of fighters out there that can kick your ass that would disagree with you. If you do fight in the SCA I would like you to explain that comment to Sir Bellatrix, you should know him if you are involved. If you don't fight in the SCA then you should shut up until you know what you are talking about. Yes there are costumes, yes there are women, yes there is drinking, but I, along with alot of people, do not fight for the recreation part of it. I fight for the sport and practicality of it. The eastern martial arts schools and styles do not have a monopoly on warfare. The SCA is a great proving grounds for any armed and armored combat style you can think of. If you are a martial artist I reccomend you look into it to add to your arsenol. A few of us aboard some aircraft on 9/11 could have saved alot of lives. No martial art that does not have full contact is much use in my opinion and I have fought alot of fights in my life.
If you don't think the SCA is a serious fighting group take a look at this manual. If you want to learn how to become a heavy infantryman able to kill and crush armored opponents then read it. The guy is old, but he was one of the best.
http://www.bellatrix.org/school/
The armor used is of varying types and weights. You can find light weight alloys like aluminum and not so light, like titanium chainmail. Accuracy buffs go with the steel, others get enough armor to protect against a baseball bat and live with the aluminum or rigid plastic. Point is without the armor, 14 gauge steel for head gear, you could not have a full contact sport like this with 7' wooden weapons. Not unless you want your brains bashed out of your skull.
Your short sword suggestion will do one thing in a real fight. Get you killed. Don't believe me? I live in the Detroit area. We can test it out safely with armor and wooden weapons. I guarantee you will not touch any part of my body before I can score 5 kills on you. Message me if you are interested in putting your money where your mouth is.
As a side note to everyone else. Since Cannon reworked unarmed combat. Shouldn't there be weapon styles with manuevers to represent the various armed combat schools?
*sigh* I see that you are one of those.
Sorry Toturi, I am long winded. I will try my best not to get too deep in any dicussions any more. I am just here to have fun, not argue the mechanics of the world. I do want to create a character with the goal of becoming a kensai. Don't care how well I fight with ranged weapons. Just looking to be the best dual bladed fighter possible. Ambidexterity and edge weapons 6 seem to be the way to go. Probably a phsical adept too following the path of Bushido and skilled in Origami or some other art form.
First, if you've never had an opponent close width with you, then you are fighting inferior opponents. One of the best ways to negate your opponent's weapon reach is to close inside of it. Not just within arm reach, but close enough to inflict blows with your body if neccessary. Don't play to opponent's advantage, play to yours. If I was using 2 long swords, I would keep my distance.
Second, you don't block with a sword unless you want to have a broken or damaged sword. You deflect.
Third, just because you have beaten practitioners of other arts, and been beaten when you tried theirs does not make their style inferior.
Fourth, kata are not intended to take the place of actual training. They are intended to maintain proper sword handling and technique. "Rigid and Stylized" manuevers are just that. You do not make 'dance steps' either. When you fight, you fight with fluidity and you step naturally.
Fifth, your weapon's weight has little to no bearing on your ability to make a kill. Placement and technique are far more important.
Sixth, I have seen 'wrist snaps' such as you described. They are ineffective for delivering a cut in close quarters. Again I think our definitions of 'close quarters' are as different as night and day.
Seventh, my art in no way relies upon the utilizing the weight of the weapon. Anybody who knows anything about swords realizes that when it comes to a sword, lighter is better. Your own strike and technique is what provids the power in your attack, not weight. Where do you get the notion that we don't train to attack a person's vitals from anyways?
Eighth, where did you get the notion of only 3 different style ways? We train in many configurations against many other configurations, not limited to opponents with two swords, yari, naginata, chain-sickle, and many others. Your knowledge of my art is not what you seem to think it is. As far as shields go, I think a shield is even better than a second sword when used correctly, but we won't get into that right now.
Anyway, I will have to get to the rest of this later since I will soon be relieved, but as far as your bastard sword scenario, why would I sidestep it or deflect it when I can fall back and counter, or close width and strike? Also, you are partially mistaken, Musashi trained with two long swords true, but when it came to fighting, the man used all sorts of configurations.
I am happy that you have found a style that works for you. I however am able to bench 380 pounders so I must rely on another style. As far as putting my money where my mouth is, I live on the west coast so if your headed out for an SCA event or anything that's the only way we're going to ever meet. Otherwise, I can't be flying out to Detroit to settle a pissing contest. I don't know where you get all of your information, but I suggest you research things a bit more thouroughly before you go telling me how they practice my own art.
Second, you don't block with a sword unless you want to have a broken or damaged sword. You deflect.
Third, just because you have beaten practitioners of other arts, and been beaten when you tried theirs does not make their style inferior.
Fourth, kata are not intended to take the place of actual training. They are intended to maintain proper sword handling and technique. "Rigid and Stylized" manuevers are just that. You do not make 'dance steps' either. When you fight, you fight with fluidity and you step naturally.
Fifth, your weapon's weight has little to no bearing on your ability to make a kill. Placement and technique are far more important.
Sixth, I have seen 'wrist snaps' such as you described. They are ineffective for delivering a cut in close quarters. Again I think our definitions of 'close quarters' are as different as night and day.
Seventh, my art in no way relies upon the utilizing the weight of the weapon. Anybody who knows anything about swords realizes that when it comes to a sword, lighter is better. Your own strike and technique is what provids the power in your attack, not weight. Where do you get the notion that we don't train to attack a person's vitals from anyways?
Eighth, where did you get the notion of only 3 different style ways? We train in many configurations against many other configurations, not limited to opponents with two swords, yari, naginata, chain-sickle, and many others. Your knowledge of my art is not what you seem to think it is. As far as shields go, I think a shield is even better than a second sword when used correctly, but we won't get into that right now.
Anyway, I will have to get to the rest of this later since I will soon be relieved, but as far as your bastard sword scenario, why would I sidestep it or deflect it when I can fall back and counter, or close width and strike? Also, you are partially mistaken, Musashi trained with two long swords true, but when it came to fighting, the man used all sorts of configurations.
I am happy that you have found a style that works for you. I however am able to bench 380 pounders so I must rely on another style. As far as putting my money where my mouth is, I live on the west coast so if your headed out for an SCA event or anything that's the only way we're going to ever meet. Otherwise, I can't be flying out to Detroit to settle a pissing contest. I don't know where you get all of your information, but I suggest you research things a bit more thouroughly before you go telling me how they practice my own art.
*am NOT able to bench 380 pounders, sorry.
Getting back on topic... if you want your character to be the "best possible" two-weapon fighter, then an adept is really your only option. It's been said many times by many posters - adepts make better specialists, and cybered characters make better generalists.
The main ability that adepts have in melee combat is the Improved Ability power. Melee is an opposed test, where you can get wounded while "attacking" someone and wound someone while they are "attacking" you. So the ability to throw 6 extra dice into the mix is a huge advantage.
From a min-maxing perspective (and some min-maxing is not bad if it fits a character concept), you have done two things right already. Two-weapon fighting is effective for the same reason adepts are effective - it gives more dice. Trolls also rule melee because they have huge bonuses to Body and Strength, as well as a +1 Reach. Those two advantages would still not be enough to defeat an adept focused on melee, though - you need to be an adept yourself to truly be "the best".
You may want to see what kind of campaign your GM runs, though, and how he views character types that might be categorized as "powergaming". If a maxed-out character will do nothing but create friction in the group (who may resent your character for being more powerful, and blame you when the GM sends tougher adversaries at the group), then you may as well tone the character back a little and be more well-rounded. If you will be facing more street-level opposition, then your toned-down character will still be "the best".
The main ability that adepts have in melee combat is the Improved Ability power. Melee is an opposed test, where you can get wounded while "attacking" someone and wound someone while they are "attacking" you. So the ability to throw 6 extra dice into the mix is a huge advantage.
From a min-maxing perspective (and some min-maxing is not bad if it fits a character concept), you have done two things right already. Two-weapon fighting is effective for the same reason adepts are effective - it gives more dice. Trolls also rule melee because they have huge bonuses to Body and Strength, as well as a +1 Reach. Those two advantages would still not be enough to defeat an adept focused on melee, though - you need to be an adept yourself to truly be "the best".
You may want to see what kind of campaign your GM runs, though, and how he views character types that might be categorized as "powergaming". If a maxed-out character will do nothing but create friction in the group (who may resent your character for being more powerful, and blame you when the GM sends tougher adversaries at the group), then you may as well tone the character back a little and be more well-rounded. If you will be facing more street-level opposition, then your toned-down character will still be "the best".
Don't forget the absolutely AWESOME 'counterstrike' ability that adepts can get. .5 points for each extra die when defending in melee. Great for when your combat pool is toast =)
Mushashi did indeed develop Niten Ichi Ryu, which involved fighting with two swords; a daito and shoto. Also called a katana and wakizashi. In fact, the term daisho means long-short. Your inspiration used a long sword and a short sword.
To expand on what Frosty said:
To expand on what Frosty said:
| QUOTE |
| Second, you don't block with a sword unless you want to have a broken or damaged sword. You deflect. |
If a parry damages your sword, you have a very crappy sword, or are using it wrong. That still doesn't make a parry a good idea. It us usually better to do some sort of deflection such as a battement (to keep the opponents energy moving forward while you close for a kill) or even better, a ward. A ward is when the path of your attack intercepts and deflects an incoming attack, similar to the idea behind a lot of Jeet Kun Do, Bruce Lee's Way of the Intercepting Fist. This is, of course, far from a comprehensive list of possible defensive techniques.
Finally, what the SCA does is a sport. It is not real fighting. If both people are still alive at the end, it is not real fighting. That is not to say that it is completely devoid of skill or technique. However, that technique employed by the SCA is extremely dissimilar from what we find in historical manuals from any location and any era, including any european manuals. That said, we have two possibilities. Hundreds of years of swordfighting tradition, tested on numerous battlefields, accounting for the lives of countless men, is wrong about how to effectively kill, or the SCA is.
Traditional methods work better for their traditional purpose, that of killing people. The SCA's methods work bettor for their purpose, and that is the sport of SCA style sparring.
p.s. please pardon my mixture of terminology
You make a good point, I should clarify. By block I meant when the combatants slam their swords together, or when one attempts to slam the opponent's sword away by force alone. That is the type of behavior which can damage even a well-made sword.
A parry can be effective, but as you said a battement or ward is much better =)
A parry can be effective, but as you said a battement or ward is much better =)
Although IRL blocking is almost useless unless you're using a large weapon if your using a knife or short sword your better off going for the kill and accepting that your gonna get cut so you better cut deeper and faster and harder......hmmm that came out wrong lol.
The thing that bugged me about the way SR manages ambidexterity in conjunction with skills, is that it seems you'd have to take ambidexterity to be able to play the drums.
No it doesn't. You don't need Ambidexterity to use two weapons. It's just a nicer option than investing in two seperate skills or defaulting from one (Clubs) to the other (Off-Handed Clubs).
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand) |
| I also fight in the SCA, frequently with two long swords. The longer, the better, actualy. Anyone not familiar with the SCA, it is a "full contact" martial art using wooden weapons and real armor. I have been fighting for years. Two weapon style is common, but long sword/short sword is almost nonexistant, simply because it does not work as well as two long swords. This is not ancient history, this is real world practicality. |
Nope, it isn't. I'm pretty strong, but even I can't effectively use two decent-length swords (actual steel, we're talking 2-3 pounds sticking out a decent distance here). As pointed out, Musashi used a long and short sword, not two full-lengths. The fact that two long swords are that good is an artifact of the fake weaponry.
~J
I've actually been working on legitimate full sized double sword styles, and it's quite difficult to get right. I use swords of the appropriate weight, and I've been using my training in duel weilding flexible weapons to make things work... essencially, by letting the second weapon follow the first in most cases, and generally keeping both weapons moving in an arc, it's actually less tiring since the momentum of the weapons is always on my side. It's definitely doable, though I need to work on it more to iron out the kinks.
JaronK
JaronK
But in a situation where you're using a fake SCA-style weapon, you can pretty much move the two swords independently of each other for a vast increase in effectiveness that just doesn't happen for anyone of realistic strength.
That being said, I could see Trolls or maybe beefy Orks doing it, but it's nowhere near as legitimate a "real-world technique" as something like SCA experience might lead one to believe.
~J
That being said, I could see Trolls or maybe beefy Orks doing it, but it's nowhere near as legitimate a "real-world technique" as something like SCA experience might lead one to believe.
~J
I kind of forgot this thread I was so busy, but I was not done talking. At the risk of being pulled deeper into a needless debate I would like to add a few things to some comments that were made.
First, I was wondering how ambidexterity worked. Glyph was kind enough to help me out with a great explanation. Second I wanted to know about fighting with two weapons, in particular, two katanas. The chart on page 96 of Canaon Companion is far from exhaustive. I can't think of any reason not to allow two one handed weapons. The list does not even cover or account for traditional styles like Roman style retiarius, net and trident, or a variation of the same, laquearii, lasso and trident. Dimacheri, fought with two swords. Kung Fu weapons forms; Surng Nau Yip Doe, Double Tie-Sheet Blades. Surng Ngow Doe, Double Hook Blades. Where is the tongfa or the sai? You can't fight with them because they are not on the list? The Thais fought with two swords, Krabi Krabong is the grandfather fighting style of Muay Thai.
Here is a brief crappy video of Krabi Krabong. About 15 seconds into the clip is two guys sparring. Neither look dangerous to me. The guy with the two flimsly little bokken is doing a fighting fade or something? The guy with the single bokken is blocking with his hand? Both would be dead in a real fight with an armored opponent. Sorry I am not delivering high quality video for you to look at, but you can at least see that fighting with two katanas is certainly possible.
http://dogbrothers.tv/videoclips/dbmaa05.wmv
Here is a link to some background on Krabi Krabong. My wife is Thai which makes my kids half Thai, so I have a special interest in Thai history. Daab Song Muun, literaly translated means, "sword" "two" "hands".
http://www.kalijkd-u.com/the_martial_arts/...s/muay_thai.php
Or if you like fluff, take a look at some lame fighting kata?
http://www.cmac1.com/Unsu/video/kali1.mov
I think this alone is enough evidence that two sword style is historicly accurate even discounting Florentine fencing style or SCA fighting. My own personal experience of over 20 years of training says two long sword is a very good style.
Frosty, for the record, I have fought awesome fighters. I have been in close many occasions. What makes you think I have not fought in close? The double edge of the long sword allows for either blade edge to be used in battle, which is much more versatile than the katana. The lower edge strikes the opponent in the standard slash, but the upper edge attacks the back of the opponent with a downward wrist rotation just before contact from an overhead motion. Standing literaly chest to chest I am able to wrap my shots around to the backs of my opponents with no loss of power or speed at all. If you don't block with your sword you do not know how to fight. Not to mention this is Shadowrun with high tech alloys, dikoting even. I am not putting down other fighting forms. The ones with too many rules on where you can aim and the ones that do not allow hands on full contact training are not giving realistic training though. Sorry if you have invested alot of time learning an "art". In a real fight though I would want SCA trained men guarding my kids over any of the art schools that teach sword play. They are nice for show, but little else.
Your weapon's weight has everything to do with making a kill. Why would you say that it doesn't? Here is some testing done. Notice even a two handed sword swung with full power does not get thru armor. I hope this helps you realize that those light weapons do nothing in a real fight with armored opponents nor is it realistic to train with them with thise overhead little slashes to the head and shoulders. You need a thrusting tip to pierce armor or you need something like a mace or flail to deliver heavy crushing damage to produce blunt force trauma. Skill is great, but raw power is what kills quickest.
http://www.mythosproductions.com/media/ISTTDmed.mov
Your claims that a lighter sword is better only applies when facing unarmored opponents. And I will fully agree with you that technique and and light weapon is better in that case. I hope I am clear in distinguishing the two situations? In Shadowrun, which is what this debate is about, you wear armor or die.
Sorry, but you don't sound like someone who has studied Niten Ichi Ryu for 9 years as you claim. There is only one place that I am aware of that is authorized to teach it outside of Japan and that is at the University of Guelph Sei Do Kai in Canada, and only in the summer when the instructer has a seminar each year. Is this where you have been getting instruction? I am only a 3 hour drive from there and would be happy to demonstrate my own skills against anyone at the school if you are going? As far as getting out to Cali I do on occasion and I can put you in touch with friends that will be happy to show you what full contact is all about if you want? Here is a couple of links I found to the school I was talking about. It is hard to believe they have authorized anyone to teach that style outside of Japan and that is why I thought you were Japanese earlier when you said you had been studying it for 9 years.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/iai-nitenseminar.html
http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_taylor_0802.htm
Moon Hawk, thanks for the little lesson in sword defense. I use punch blocks alot and I am also very thankful to have a larger surface area to deflect with on the many occasions I face a speed demon. That is what a basket hilt was designed for. And if you get your glove really wedged in there you don't have to grip the sword so tightly, which is a good thing when you need to switch angles of attack quickly.
The SCA is a sport as you say. They stress safety with minimum armor requirements and an authorization proccess before you are allowed to participate in tournaments or wars. With the same protection used in kendo though there would be deaths. I have hit someone hard enough to knock them out, thru 14 gauge steel, and 1 1/2" foam padding. I guarantee you I could kill an unarmored opponent with little trouble. Give me two axe handles and come at me with anything that does not spit lead and see what happens.
You also claim there is no historical evidence for using two swords in battle? You don't know your history very well. Check out the link I provided about Krabi Krabong. The Thai government just spent millions of dollars making a 7 hour historicaly accurate documentary called Suriyothai. In the full Thai version which we have here at the house there is plenty of ground fighters using 2 swords in the elaborate battle scenes they created.
You also seem confused about how to train for a real fight. Your reasoning is flawed in that you think our methods do not give realistic results because there is no evidence of two sword style in history, which you are wrong about of course. But there is a simple fact you ignore, modern man has a long list of advantages over ancient fighters from any point in history, one of which is access to most all the knowledge that was ever written on the combined styles thru history. I think two long blades are a good style because I get my ass kicked any time I try something as dumb as going long sword short sword. And you think SCA style combat does not get as close as humanly possible to the real thing? That is like saying target practice at the rifle range won't make you a good sniper because you are not firing a living targets.
Kagetenshi, we have weakling women that fight in the SCA. Alot of them fight two sowrd. Two long swords. Which is absolutly no suprise to me considering the alternative is to hold a shield that weighs 5 times as much. Your statement at first kind of pissed me off, because you were in a sense calling me a liar about what I can and can't do! Then I realized you don't have a clue what you are talking about. The 50" sword I use in each hand with basket hilt weighs more than a katana. In motion it is aerodynamicly different, I admit, but that is actualy a good thing because a sword feels so much easier to control. Once you have had to move a rounded surface thru the air at great speeds the flat slice of a real sword is nice. Now if I could only find some training partners willing to risk getting killed.
JaronK, fighting with two weapons of equal length and weight is so much more natural. The human body is symetrical to a large extent and just like you said, you can realy get into a rythm when using both arms together. Try delaying one swing a bit when attacking the same side. Alot of fighters will block and recover, but if you are hitting high then low just a split second later you will catch some out of guard as they lower or raise to block the leading blade.
Check out this brief clip. Notice how close the two fighters are at the end. I have been chest to chest, but at least this clip shows that long sword within dagger range is just as effective or better. Too bad I can't get some of my video to you guys. I have hours of film, but none of it is digital.
http://www.shieldcam.com/video/capture0031a.mpg
First, I was wondering how ambidexterity worked. Glyph was kind enough to help me out with a great explanation. Second I wanted to know about fighting with two weapons, in particular, two katanas. The chart on page 96 of Canaon Companion is far from exhaustive. I can't think of any reason not to allow two one handed weapons. The list does not even cover or account for traditional styles like Roman style retiarius, net and trident, or a variation of the same, laquearii, lasso and trident. Dimacheri, fought with two swords. Kung Fu weapons forms; Surng Nau Yip Doe, Double Tie-Sheet Blades. Surng Ngow Doe, Double Hook Blades. Where is the tongfa or the sai? You can't fight with them because they are not on the list? The Thais fought with two swords, Krabi Krabong is the grandfather fighting style of Muay Thai.
Here is a brief crappy video of Krabi Krabong. About 15 seconds into the clip is two guys sparring. Neither look dangerous to me. The guy with the two flimsly little bokken is doing a fighting fade or something? The guy with the single bokken is blocking with his hand? Both would be dead in a real fight with an armored opponent. Sorry I am not delivering high quality video for you to look at, but you can at least see that fighting with two katanas is certainly possible.
http://dogbrothers.tv/videoclips/dbmaa05.wmv
Here is a link to some background on Krabi Krabong. My wife is Thai which makes my kids half Thai, so I have a special interest in Thai history. Daab Song Muun, literaly translated means, "sword" "two" "hands".
http://www.kalijkd-u.com/the_martial_arts/...s/muay_thai.php
Or if you like fluff, take a look at some lame fighting kata?
http://www.cmac1.com/Unsu/video/kali1.mov
I think this alone is enough evidence that two sword style is historicly accurate even discounting Florentine fencing style or SCA fighting. My own personal experience of over 20 years of training says two long sword is a very good style.
Frosty, for the record, I have fought awesome fighters. I have been in close many occasions. What makes you think I have not fought in close? The double edge of the long sword allows for either blade edge to be used in battle, which is much more versatile than the katana. The lower edge strikes the opponent in the standard slash, but the upper edge attacks the back of the opponent with a downward wrist rotation just before contact from an overhead motion. Standing literaly chest to chest I am able to wrap my shots around to the backs of my opponents with no loss of power or speed at all. If you don't block with your sword you do not know how to fight. Not to mention this is Shadowrun with high tech alloys, dikoting even. I am not putting down other fighting forms. The ones with too many rules on where you can aim and the ones that do not allow hands on full contact training are not giving realistic training though. Sorry if you have invested alot of time learning an "art". In a real fight though I would want SCA trained men guarding my kids over any of the art schools that teach sword play. They are nice for show, but little else.
Your weapon's weight has everything to do with making a kill. Why would you say that it doesn't? Here is some testing done. Notice even a two handed sword swung with full power does not get thru armor. I hope this helps you realize that those light weapons do nothing in a real fight with armored opponents nor is it realistic to train with them with thise overhead little slashes to the head and shoulders. You need a thrusting tip to pierce armor or you need something like a mace or flail to deliver heavy crushing damage to produce blunt force trauma. Skill is great, but raw power is what kills quickest.
http://www.mythosproductions.com/media/ISTTDmed.mov
Your claims that a lighter sword is better only applies when facing unarmored opponents. And I will fully agree with you that technique and and light weapon is better in that case. I hope I am clear in distinguishing the two situations? In Shadowrun, which is what this debate is about, you wear armor or die.
Sorry, but you don't sound like someone who has studied Niten Ichi Ryu for 9 years as you claim. There is only one place that I am aware of that is authorized to teach it outside of Japan and that is at the University of Guelph Sei Do Kai in Canada, and only in the summer when the instructer has a seminar each year. Is this where you have been getting instruction? I am only a 3 hour drive from there and would be happy to demonstrate my own skills against anyone at the school if you are going? As far as getting out to Cali I do on occasion and I can put you in touch with friends that will be happy to show you what full contact is all about if you want? Here is a couple of links I found to the school I was talking about. It is hard to believe they have authorized anyone to teach that style outside of Japan and that is why I thought you were Japanese earlier when you said you had been studying it for 9 years.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/iai-nitenseminar.html
http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_taylor_0802.htm
Moon Hawk, thanks for the little lesson in sword defense. I use punch blocks alot and I am also very thankful to have a larger surface area to deflect with on the many occasions I face a speed demon. That is what a basket hilt was designed for. And if you get your glove really wedged in there you don't have to grip the sword so tightly, which is a good thing when you need to switch angles of attack quickly.
The SCA is a sport as you say. They stress safety with minimum armor requirements and an authorization proccess before you are allowed to participate in tournaments or wars. With the same protection used in kendo though there would be deaths. I have hit someone hard enough to knock them out, thru 14 gauge steel, and 1 1/2" foam padding. I guarantee you I could kill an unarmored opponent with little trouble. Give me two axe handles and come at me with anything that does not spit lead and see what happens.
You also claim there is no historical evidence for using two swords in battle? You don't know your history very well. Check out the link I provided about Krabi Krabong. The Thai government just spent millions of dollars making a 7 hour historicaly accurate documentary called Suriyothai. In the full Thai version which we have here at the house there is plenty of ground fighters using 2 swords in the elaborate battle scenes they created.
You also seem confused about how to train for a real fight. Your reasoning is flawed in that you think our methods do not give realistic results because there is no evidence of two sword style in history, which you are wrong about of course. But there is a simple fact you ignore, modern man has a long list of advantages over ancient fighters from any point in history, one of which is access to most all the knowledge that was ever written on the combined styles thru history. I think two long blades are a good style because I get my ass kicked any time I try something as dumb as going long sword short sword. And you think SCA style combat does not get as close as humanly possible to the real thing? That is like saying target practice at the rifle range won't make you a good sniper because you are not firing a living targets.
Kagetenshi, we have weakling women that fight in the SCA. Alot of them fight two sowrd. Two long swords. Which is absolutly no suprise to me considering the alternative is to hold a shield that weighs 5 times as much. Your statement at first kind of pissed me off, because you were in a sense calling me a liar about what I can and can't do! Then I realized you don't have a clue what you are talking about. The 50" sword I use in each hand with basket hilt weighs more than a katana. In motion it is aerodynamicly different, I admit, but that is actualy a good thing because a sword feels so much easier to control. Once you have had to move a rounded surface thru the air at great speeds the flat slice of a real sword is nice. Now if I could only find some training partners willing to risk getting killed.
JaronK, fighting with two weapons of equal length and weight is so much more natural. The human body is symetrical to a large extent and just like you said, you can realy get into a rythm when using both arms together. Try delaying one swing a bit when attacking the same side. Alot of fighters will block and recover, but if you are hitting high then low just a split second later you will catch some out of guard as they lower or raise to block the leading blade.
Check out this brief clip. Notice how close the two fighters are at the end. I have been chest to chest, but at least this clip shows that long sword within dagger range is just as effective or better. Too bad I can't get some of my video to you guys. I have hours of film, but none of it is digital.
http://www.shieldcam.com/video/capture0031a.mpg
You know its amazing you say "I'm not putting down other fighting forms" yet you say "take a look here at some lame fighting kata" Sounds like a put down to me. Also to me you put a lot of emphasize on armor. Granted I will give you armor makes you some what of a harder target, but it also does something else, weighs you down. Cause of this your lighter opponent which you so discernably belive you will kill with a single blow, while quite possible, can dance circles around you all day. All he has to do is wait out your endurance while you stumble after him like a lumbering oaf. Even "if" you could bench press 380 lbs, thats str training, not endurance. There is quite a difference.
Now for the two weapon fighting, I can't agree or disagree, all that is a matter of prefrence. Im sure the long swords work for you and many others. Has quite a truth to it. However, I prefer two diffrent size weapons. Reason being my left hand is noticably weaker then my right. I dont need a dead left arm after trying to wield something thats much easier for my right arm to bear. I dont work that way, so the smaller blade would suit me, but see thats how I do it. I applaude yer use of two long swords, I could never do it, my arms wouldnt let me, plus to me it feels a little akward, hehe.
[Your weapon's weight has everything to do with making a kill]
I find this remark one of complete ignorance. You seem to be coming off as a man who uses brute strength over everything else. I'm not saying a heavy weapon isnt going to kill you, it will make no mistake, but theres more to a weapons weight for a death blow. Your so called heavy sword not being able to get through armor with a swing is true, of course its not, yer slashing against a solid object, why are you slashing? For such a thing you need to pierce the armor, while granted is hard but much easier then trying to slash his armor off him. How about that light weapon you so much despise. I know when Im using it against an armored opponent I dont go for the armor, I go for the spots the armor dosent cover. There are plenty, cause Im pretty sure yer not wearing full plate in a fight, any who do is sorely mistaken, that stuff was made mainly for parades not an actual on foot fight.
Its all a matter of technique and style. Every thing has its advantages and disadvantages. One must know how to utilizes these, and when one has mastered his own weaknesses does he masters his opponents.
Now for the two weapon fighting, I can't agree or disagree, all that is a matter of prefrence. Im sure the long swords work for you and many others. Has quite a truth to it. However, I prefer two diffrent size weapons. Reason being my left hand is noticably weaker then my right. I dont need a dead left arm after trying to wield something thats much easier for my right arm to bear. I dont work that way, so the smaller blade would suit me, but see thats how I do it. I applaude yer use of two long swords, I could never do it, my arms wouldnt let me, plus to me it feels a little akward, hehe.
[Your weapon's weight has everything to do with making a kill]
I find this remark one of complete ignorance. You seem to be coming off as a man who uses brute strength over everything else. I'm not saying a heavy weapon isnt going to kill you, it will make no mistake, but theres more to a weapons weight for a death blow. Your so called heavy sword not being able to get through armor with a swing is true, of course its not, yer slashing against a solid object, why are you slashing? For such a thing you need to pierce the armor, while granted is hard but much easier then trying to slash his armor off him. How about that light weapon you so much despise. I know when Im using it against an armored opponent I dont go for the armor, I go for the spots the armor dosent cover. There are plenty, cause Im pretty sure yer not wearing full plate in a fight, any who do is sorely mistaken, that stuff was made mainly for parades not an actual on foot fight.
Its all a matter of technique and style. Every thing has its advantages and disadvantages. One must know how to utilizes these, and when one has mastered his own weaknesses does he masters his opponents.
You guys are all idiots.
That said, I'd like to add something to what Glyph and the others are saying... the Ambidexterity edge is better, as has been repeatedly pointed out, but a major reason is because of Karma. Buying an 8-point edge and a rating 6 skill costs a little more in chargen than a pair of rating 6 skills, but the in-game costs of boosting both weapon skills will rapidly dwarf the benefits you could've gotten from the two extra points you put into Ambidexterity. At most you could've used them to boost two skills from 5 to 6, but for some characters that would be cheaper than raising Off-Hand from 6 to 7, and as your character ages and puts more points in those skills the combined karma cost of Edged Weapons and the off-hand skill will get ridiculous.
So, from a metagaming standpoint (and comparing the cost/benefit ratio of an Edge to a Skill is borderline metagaming anyway), you'd again be better off with the Ambidexterity edge.
You bunch of idiots.
-Albert
That said, I'd like to add something to what Glyph and the others are saying... the Ambidexterity edge is better, as has been repeatedly pointed out, but a major reason is because of Karma. Buying an 8-point edge and a rating 6 skill costs a little more in chargen than a pair of rating 6 skills, but the in-game costs of boosting both weapon skills will rapidly dwarf the benefits you could've gotten from the two extra points you put into Ambidexterity. At most you could've used them to boost two skills from 5 to 6, but for some characters that would be cheaper than raising Off-Hand from 6 to 7, and as your character ages and puts more points in those skills the combined karma cost of Edged Weapons and the off-hand skill will get ridiculous.
So, from a metagaming standpoint (and comparing the cost/benefit ratio of an Edge to a Skill is borderline metagaming anyway), you'd again be better off with the Ambidexterity edge.
You bunch of idiots.
-Albert
I said lame fighting kata because what they are doing is bouncing sticks off each others sticks. That is not going to serve any purpose and it certainly is no way to train to kill. They don't even have headgear on. Obviously it is nothing more than fluff.
I place alot of emphasis on armor because it is that good of an asset. You have obviously never been in armor or you would not have the false opinion that armor slows you down. The weight is very evenly distributed and I am quite capable of making rapid violent moves in it. Can I sprint in it? No of course not. I assume anyone coming to a fight is going to actually stay and fight. You are way off the mark though if you think anyone can come within striking range of me and move faster than my sword arm to somehow dance around behind me in circles. That is quite ridiculous. Not to mention that I personally endurance train as well. I can run three miles in 19 minutes and 20 seconds, not a track star, but that is a pretty good clip. I do three 6 mile runs a week. I am the last person who gets tired on the battle field. And I am the last person that needs to be explained how to exercise to. I won't be stumbling after anyone. I will just patiently wait for him to come within 10 feet of me. In a tournament there are usually boundaries. And in Shadowrun there is no movement penalty for wearing an armored vest and a long coat, so what is your point anyway?
Most people are not ambidextrous either. You might feel your off hand is just dead weight. In that case I would recommend you carrying a shield instead of a second sword because if you are not able to generate a successful attack with your off hand then you are wasting your time with a second weapon in it. I don't get where you guys are using all these weapons but you never fought in the SCA before? Is this some sort of LARP experience? If you are not using weapons that weigh in accurately you are not getting realistic fighting experience.
You find my remark about weapon weight having a direct bearing on killing power ignorant? Let me try it another way since you did not bother to view the link I provided on weapon cutting power. Do you know what a butcher's knife is? It is a short heavy bladed knife that can chop thru chicken bones with one swing pretty easily. Go get your sharpest normal sized steak knife and see if you can chop thru the chicken's skin even with a single strike. It should be pretty obvious even to someone that knows nothing about weapons to figure out the difference in knives is what allowed the kill to be made. Technique has squat to do with it. Both knives can stab, but the chickens head can be removed with the heavier blade. Pretty simple logic.
And you think full plate was just made for parades and stuff? And you call me making ignorant statements? I wear half plate myself, I am pretty good at protecting my back. I would feel very comfortable fighting with live steel against an unarmored opponent, but I am not that bloodthirsty to wish a gruesome death on anyone. Where is this exactly that you are attacking an armored man? Some LARP game with foam filled pvc tubes? You don't fight heavy weapons in the SCA, I know that much for sure.
I place alot of emphasis on armor because it is that good of an asset. You have obviously never been in armor or you would not have the false opinion that armor slows you down. The weight is very evenly distributed and I am quite capable of making rapid violent moves in it. Can I sprint in it? No of course not. I assume anyone coming to a fight is going to actually stay and fight. You are way off the mark though if you think anyone can come within striking range of me and move faster than my sword arm to somehow dance around behind me in circles. That is quite ridiculous. Not to mention that I personally endurance train as well. I can run three miles in 19 minutes and 20 seconds, not a track star, but that is a pretty good clip. I do three 6 mile runs a week. I am the last person who gets tired on the battle field. And I am the last person that needs to be explained how to exercise to. I won't be stumbling after anyone. I will just patiently wait for him to come within 10 feet of me. In a tournament there are usually boundaries. And in Shadowrun there is no movement penalty for wearing an armored vest and a long coat, so what is your point anyway?
Most people are not ambidextrous either. You might feel your off hand is just dead weight. In that case I would recommend you carrying a shield instead of a second sword because if you are not able to generate a successful attack with your off hand then you are wasting your time with a second weapon in it. I don't get where you guys are using all these weapons but you never fought in the SCA before? Is this some sort of LARP experience? If you are not using weapons that weigh in accurately you are not getting realistic fighting experience.
You find my remark about weapon weight having a direct bearing on killing power ignorant? Let me try it another way since you did not bother to view the link I provided on weapon cutting power. Do you know what a butcher's knife is? It is a short heavy bladed knife that can chop thru chicken bones with one swing pretty easily. Go get your sharpest normal sized steak knife and see if you can chop thru the chicken's skin even with a single strike. It should be pretty obvious even to someone that knows nothing about weapons to figure out the difference in knives is what allowed the kill to be made. Technique has squat to do with it. Both knives can stab, but the chickens head can be removed with the heavier blade. Pretty simple logic.
And you think full plate was just made for parades and stuff? And you call me making ignorant statements? I wear half plate myself, I am pretty good at protecting my back. I would feel very comfortable fighting with live steel against an unarmored opponent, but I am not that bloodthirsty to wish a gruesome death on anyone. Where is this exactly that you are attacking an armored man? Some LARP game with foam filled pvc tubes? You don't fight heavy weapons in the SCA, I know that much for sure.
This 'field' is rife with ego, your's is just bigger than most. I'm not gonna argue with you anymore because you only seem to know what you're talking about in the context of what you practice.
I don't have an ego problem. I am completly at ease with myself and what I have done. I have literaly fought thousands of full contact duels and wars in practices and tournaments. Armed combat is what I know. Start talking balistics, cars, or computers and I am dumb as a rock.
That you just threw me an insult kind of bugs me since you don't really know anything about me, but it's all good. Opinions vary. My only argument is that two katanas can easily be used effectively and there is historical proof that they were, let alone that one of the roleplaying suggestions on page 6 of the Shadowrun Companion says you can design a character background around your own self and if I did that I would be able to use two katanas hands down. It is cool though. You tried to shoot me down when I know damn well I am right and I tried my best to find useful links to back up my claim.
I guess this means you won't be explaining where you got 9 years of training in a rare martial art form that is not taught outside of Japan except in a very few places, huh?
That you just threw me an insult kind of bugs me since you don't really know anything about me, but it's all good. Opinions vary. My only argument is that two katanas can easily be used effectively and there is historical proof that they were, let alone that one of the roleplaying suggestions on page 6 of the Shadowrun Companion says you can design a character background around your own self and if I did that I would be able to use two katanas hands down. It is cool though. You tried to shoot me down when I know damn well I am right and I tried my best to find useful links to back up my claim.
I guess this means you won't be explaining where you got 9 years of training in a rare martial art form that is not taught outside of Japan except in a very few places, huh?
Your right I should've kept the ego comment to myself so I apolagize for that.
If you can use two katana simultaniously then do it. We train with 2 full-size swords, but when I fight I use a long and short. I know it can be done. You have what works for you, I have what works for me.
Now I wouldn't agree with two nodachi or anything (even with a troll, because I would figure a troll would use troll-modified nodachi)
As far as finding links to support your claims, just becasue you find something on the internet doesn't mean it's entirely accurate. There are many aspects of Niten Ichi Ryu that you will not find on the internet, and in actuality, I have read translations of 'Five Rings' that have been radically different from one another as well.
If you need to know, I trained when I was based in Japan, I have since left and now I pursue it on my own. A lot of that includes full-contact sparring and trial/error, so in that respect I can understand your SCA style. Only when I am alone do I do kata, which are actually intended to maintain proper weapon control and technique. I do a lot of tameshigiri as well, and in the case of the japanese sword, weight does not equate to cutting power. Technique equates to cutting power. This is contrary to western blades which (quite a few) deliver 'chopping' blows, but that is just how the swords were designed to work. Either way, an excessively heavy sword (this depends on what you can handle) will slow you down.
A japanese sword was not meant to cut through a medieval knight's armor and in most cases probably wouldn't. We can talk semantics all day, but I'd rather not.
It doesn't matter either way because all the fights I've been in have been gunfights. In all my years I'd say I use my combat knife for mundane stuff 99.9% of the time.
If you can use two katana simultaniously then do it. We train with 2 full-size swords, but when I fight I use a long and short. I know it can be done. You have what works for you, I have what works for me.
Now I wouldn't agree with two nodachi or anything (even with a troll, because I would figure a troll would use troll-modified nodachi)
As far as finding links to support your claims, just becasue you find something on the internet doesn't mean it's entirely accurate. There are many aspects of Niten Ichi Ryu that you will not find on the internet, and in actuality, I have read translations of 'Five Rings' that have been radically different from one another as well.
If you need to know, I trained when I was based in Japan, I have since left and now I pursue it on my own. A lot of that includes full-contact sparring and trial/error, so in that respect I can understand your SCA style. Only when I am alone do I do kata, which are actually intended to maintain proper weapon control and technique. I do a lot of tameshigiri as well, and in the case of the japanese sword, weight does not equate to cutting power. Technique equates to cutting power. This is contrary to western blades which (quite a few) deliver 'chopping' blows, but that is just how the swords were designed to work. Either way, an excessively heavy sword (this depends on what you can handle) will slow you down.
A japanese sword was not meant to cut through a medieval knight's armor and in most cases probably wouldn't. We can talk semantics all day, but I'd rather not.
It doesn't matter either way because all the fights I've been in have been gunfights. In all my years I'd say I use my combat knife for mundane stuff 99.9% of the time.
Just to get a thread that has way outlived its usefulness to be closed down:
You really think the kind of fighting styles you learn through SCA are superior to all other melee fighting styles a person can learn in this day and age? Would you say, then, that someone trained in historically accurate sword fighting styles wouldn't stand a chance against someone who's trained through SCA?
I have a bit of a problem believing this. For example the schools teaching Italian style swordmanship base their stuff on methods established by people who had fought for their lives innumerable times and shared their wisdom with a dozen others who had also. Styles which are based on one thing only: how to kill the enemy as soon as possible. These employ tactics such as "concentrating unarmed attacks to the groin when fighting against males", or striking with a sword in such a way as to force the enemy to be in a 90 degree angle towards you and then following with a kick to the knee, or at which angles you should thrust with a sword to get under the plates protecting the upper arm, etc.
My understanding is that SCA doesn't teach stuff like that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but SCA fighting is based on either a system of which kind of hits and where count as a kill, ie you don't clubber each other until the other passes out (which would be more realistic, but still far from the conditions that would end a real fight).
I know which guy I'd want defending my friends&family, too.
You really think the kind of fighting styles you learn through SCA are superior to all other melee fighting styles a person can learn in this day and age? Would you say, then, that someone trained in historically accurate sword fighting styles wouldn't stand a chance against someone who's trained through SCA?
I have a bit of a problem believing this. For example the schools teaching Italian style swordmanship base their stuff on methods established by people who had fought for their lives innumerable times and shared their wisdom with a dozen others who had also. Styles which are based on one thing only: how to kill the enemy as soon as possible. These employ tactics such as "concentrating unarmed attacks to the groin when fighting against males", or striking with a sword in such a way as to force the enemy to be in a 90 degree angle towards you and then following with a kick to the knee, or at which angles you should thrust with a sword to get under the plates protecting the upper arm, etc.
My understanding is that SCA doesn't teach stuff like that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but SCA fighting is based on either a system of which kind of hits and where count as a kill, ie you don't clubber each other until the other passes out (which would be more realistic, but still far from the conditions that would end a real fight).
I know which guy I'd want defending my friends&family, too.
I should mention where I'm coming from in all this... I'm an actor, who's trained with a variety of weapons (off the top of my head: Broadsword, Greatsword, Rapier, Sabre, Epee, Case of Rapiers, Rapier and Dagger, Quarterstaff) for stage combat purposes, as well as a variety of Eastern weapons (Katana, Kama, Bo, Jo) as part of my Tae Kwon Do training, and I've had a great deal of circus training (Poi Balls, Bull Whips, etc are relevent here). I've also fenced with Sabres, Foils, and Epees. As a result, I'm very used to the feel of actual weapons, the ways they're meant to be used. A pair of Katana sized weapons is a legitimate weapon combination, but it's by no means easy, and when working with them I find that my offhand strikes are little more than distractions... they'd score points in a match, but they wouldn't penetrate very well. By using fluid motions learned mostly from Poi Balls, I've been able to up the strength of the attacks, but it's still hard to make things work properly, and I'm not convinced that duel weilding Katanas is any more effective than using a single one in combat. Now, duel weilding rapiers is a whole other story... they're easy to weild that way. The offhand rapier is often in more of a defensive role, but it's definitely usable.
I find that that offhand is much more suitable for blocking, distracting attacks, and short stabbing attacks than it is for slashing blows, since such large attacks detract from mainhand effectiveness and are often significantly weaker. As such, I'd have to agree that except in extream cases, it's better to weild a short weapon offhand (short sword, parrying dagger, etc.) than a full sized one. There are exceptions to every rule, though, and since this is a fanatasy game we're talking about, it seems logical to allow such things.
JaronK
I find that that offhand is much more suitable for blocking, distracting attacks, and short stabbing attacks than it is for slashing blows, since such large attacks detract from mainhand effectiveness and are often significantly weaker. As such, I'd have to agree that except in extream cases, it's better to weild a short weapon offhand (short sword, parrying dagger, etc.) than a full sized one. There are exceptions to every rule, though, and since this is a fanatasy game we're talking about, it seems logical to allow such things.
JaronK
Apolgy accepted Frosty, I am not here to step on anyone's toes. I just want to ask a few questions now and then about this cool game we all play. If you felt I was rude then I apologize as well.
If a troll was going to customize a two handed weapon built for trolls, like a 9' claymore for example, should it do progressively more damage like the other weapons of the same type do? Example, knife to sword to katana to Claymore. They are all bigger edged weapons that do more damage. I'm not planning to use that, but if a troll could use no dachi and katana as a two sword style, does that sound reasonable? To simulate katana wakizashi.
And maybe Japanese blades are not best suited for two sword style because they lack a reverse cutting edge like the bastard swords I use do, but as a character concept I think they would just be cooler. Like a scene from Matrix. I visualize my fantasy character hopefully slicing up the competition like a whirling blender with both of his blades moving faster than the eye can see, etc.. For that to happen there would have to be a little bit of flexibility here. In fact I don't even see the wakizashi listed? Is this a sword? Or a knife? It's not a Cougar Fine Blade, so I assume it just an incomplete chart not meant to be the end all of two weapon fighting.
Austere Emancipator, to answer your question yes. I do absolutely feel that the SCA can produce the best melee fighter in the world today. I would not say that just anyone trained in the SCA would be able to defeat a trained fighter of any particular period in time though.
Humans are constantly getting stronger, faster, and more skilled as we gain access to information, training techniques, and nutrition not available to any ancient fighter. All you have to do to see proof is to look at olympic records being broken for the past 100 years. They estimate that about 1 out of every 3 or 4 humans that have ever lived are alive today. We have a much larger genetic stock to choose from and consequently compete with for the title of who is best at a certain task. And with information storage and access we are able to quickly determine which training techniques work and which don't in producing champions. In short, we have advanced training that the ancients would be in awe of. This is why I say that with our nutrition, knowledge, training techniques, and sheer numbers of competition I feel very comfortable with the idea that modern man is better able to produce a talented swordsman or anything else than any ancient culture.
That said, is there the motivation to do so? There are some outrageously good fighters, blinding speed and reaction, powerful execution, flawless defense. I am talking about a class of men above the normal. Maybe 10 in all that have dedicated their lives to combat and are every bit masters of their craft as any martial artist. There is no stone unearthed. If there is a manual on how to fight it was looke at. The SCA is not a perfect training medium, nothing is short of the real thing. But I have seen broken bones on multiple occasions. Is that real enough for you? It is unrealistic to think a wooden sword would be able club anyone down to unconsciousness. I knocked someone out in a practice once, but never had it happen again. Broken bones? Lots of them. You sign a waiver and you enter at your own risk.
JaronK, that is pretty cool. I would love to have a job sword fighting. My goal someday is to revolutionize the sport of sword fighting in Thailand when I move there to retire. I will be without a doubt using two long swords with full contact sparring gear.
If a troll was going to customize a two handed weapon built for trolls, like a 9' claymore for example, should it do progressively more damage like the other weapons of the same type do? Example, knife to sword to katana to Claymore. They are all bigger edged weapons that do more damage. I'm not planning to use that, but if a troll could use no dachi and katana as a two sword style, does that sound reasonable? To simulate katana wakizashi.
And maybe Japanese blades are not best suited for two sword style because they lack a reverse cutting edge like the bastard swords I use do, but as a character concept I think they would just be cooler. Like a scene from Matrix. I visualize my fantasy character hopefully slicing up the competition like a whirling blender with both of his blades moving faster than the eye can see, etc.. For that to happen there would have to be a little bit of flexibility here. In fact I don't even see the wakizashi listed? Is this a sword? Or a knife? It's not a Cougar Fine Blade, so I assume it just an incomplete chart not meant to be the end all of two weapon fighting.
Austere Emancipator, to answer your question yes. I do absolutely feel that the SCA can produce the best melee fighter in the world today. I would not say that just anyone trained in the SCA would be able to defeat a trained fighter of any particular period in time though.
Humans are constantly getting stronger, faster, and more skilled as we gain access to information, training techniques, and nutrition not available to any ancient fighter. All you have to do to see proof is to look at olympic records being broken for the past 100 years. They estimate that about 1 out of every 3 or 4 humans that have ever lived are alive today. We have a much larger genetic stock to choose from and consequently compete with for the title of who is best at a certain task. And with information storage and access we are able to quickly determine which training techniques work and which don't in producing champions. In short, we have advanced training that the ancients would be in awe of. This is why I say that with our nutrition, knowledge, training techniques, and sheer numbers of competition I feel very comfortable with the idea that modern man is better able to produce a talented swordsman or anything else than any ancient culture.
That said, is there the motivation to do so? There are some outrageously good fighters, blinding speed and reaction, powerful execution, flawless defense. I am talking about a class of men above the normal. Maybe 10 in all that have dedicated their lives to combat and are every bit masters of their craft as any martial artist. There is no stone unearthed. If there is a manual on how to fight it was looke at. The SCA is not a perfect training medium, nothing is short of the real thing. But I have seen broken bones on multiple occasions. Is that real enough for you? It is unrealistic to think a wooden sword would be able club anyone down to unconsciousness. I knocked someone out in a practice once, but never had it happen again. Broken bones? Lots of them. You sign a waiver and you enter at your own risk.
JaronK, that is pretty cool. I would love to have a job sword fighting. My goal someday is to revolutionize the sport of sword fighting in Thailand when I move there to retire. I will be without a doubt using two long swords with full contact sparring gear.
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand) |
| This is why I say that with our nutrition, knowledge, training techniques, and sheer numbers of competition I feel very comfortable with the idea that modern man is better able to produce a talented swordsman or anything else than any ancient culture. |
I spoke nothing of beating someone who actually lived in the 13th century or any other such nonsense. What I meant was facing off someone who's learned to fight in SCA with someone who's learned to fight in a school that teaches historically accurate swordmanship.
You might see the same kind of thing happening if you gave real weapons to someone who practices fencing and someone who practices real (historically accurate) rapier (or small sword) fighting and faced them off. Ignoring the issue of the latter guy closing in and bashing the fencer's face in, the fencer would suddenly have to start worrying about protecting his/her arms and legs and a number of other things that simply aren't an issue when you're not fighting for real.
Because I don't know exactly what does count as a kill in SCA fighting, I cannot give you any details on how one's approach to combat would have to change when going from padded clubs with rules to sharp & pointy things with no rules.
If someone learns sword fighting from the manuals, I no longer call him a pure SCA fighter. At that point, his (theoretical) performance in a real fight with real weapons can largely be attributed to his understanding of those historically accurate, real-world viable tactics. Perhaps you should discuss the viability of fighting with two long, one-handed swords with those guys.
As far as SR is concerned, however, I absolutely would allow someone to fight with 2 such weapons if it made any sense from the character's point of view. After all, fighting with two katanas has no in-game benefit over fighting with a katana and a steak knife (AFAIK).
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| After all, fighting with two katanas has no in-game benefit over fighting with a katana and a steak knife (AFAIK). |
Which then leads us into the horrible situation where one can fight with a katana in the primary hand and using hand-razors off-hand (Cyber Implant Weapons is a vlid off-hand skill) and still get the bonus for dual wielding, but there's not a skill for off-hand unarmed...
Which then opens up another can of worms about two-handed fighting with cyber-implant weapons compared to just using your fists. Quite simply why should I get a bonus for using razors on both hands, but not for using both hands with a martial art?
Guess what? The rules suck when you take something too far.
Even without the Ambidex rules or 2 hand fighting rules, you can already use 2 cyber-implant weapons and get a benefit from it. And THAT's just with the BBB.
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand) |
| Kagetenshi, we have weakling women that fight in the SCA. Alot of them fight two sowrd. Two long swords. Which is absolutly no suprise to me considering the alternative is to hold a shield that weighs 5 times as much. Your statement at first kind of pissed me off, because you were in a sense calling me a liar about what I can and can't do! Then I realized you don't have a clue what you are talking about. The 50" sword I use in each hand with basket hilt weighs more than a katana. In motion it is aerodynamicly different, I admit, but that is actualy a good thing because a sword feels so much easier to control. Once you have had to move a rounded surface thru the air at great speeds the flat slice of a real sword is nice. Now if I could only find some training partners willing to risk getting killed. |
I wasn't calling you a liar, but now I am.
~J
Austere Emancipator, you sound interested enough in SCA combat to give it a try? It is really cool. You will get a real idea what it was like back then. The weapons are not padded though! The swords have to be 1 1/4" across minimum. I go heavier than this though. I have gone as much as 2 3/8" with a short sword. That was for melee fighting only when I use a shield and want a brick to manuever inside a tangle of spears and flailing polearms and still have the weight to make a good solid kill. A kill, by the way, is a solid blow that would have penetrated chainmail over boiled leather. Any light hit is not counted. That is why it is full speed. You want to hit hard. And if you did not wear armor you would get your brains beat out of your skull.
As far as Shadowrun goes. You are correct, two katanas is not giving me any more bonus over just buying a knife and katana, it actualy costs more money and is less concealable. It is pure roleplaying and style. Forget Musashi, I want to be me. I am not wanting to squeeze another bonus out of the game. If I was doing that I would go morning star and whip, both one handed reach two weapons and both on the proper list.
You get to add half your strength to the damage code when using two cyberweapons. That is an awesome bonus if you have a high strength.
Kagetenshi, there are fighting groups in the Boston area I can put you in touch with? They probably have a few ladies who will be about your speed as well. Origionaly you said you were not strong enough to wield two long swords (as if you had ever tried), I have seen ladies do it and say that I believe you can as well, but then you call me a liar, so I assume you are suffering from a serious lack of confidence in your own prowess? Maybe they have an 18 year old woman you can spar with? Be about your speed from the way I understand you to say.
As far as Shadowrun goes. You are correct, two katanas is not giving me any more bonus over just buying a knife and katana, it actualy costs more money and is less concealable. It is pure roleplaying and style. Forget Musashi, I want to be me. I am not wanting to squeeze another bonus out of the game. If I was doing that I would go morning star and whip, both one handed reach two weapons and both on the proper list.
You get to add half your strength to the damage code when using two cyberweapons. That is an awesome bonus if you have a high strength.
Kagetenshi, there are fighting groups in the Boston area I can put you in touch with? They probably have a few ladies who will be about your speed as well. Origionaly you said you were not strong enough to wield two long swords (as if you had ever tried), I have seen ladies do it and say that I believe you can as well, but then you call me a liar, so I assume you are suffering from a serious lack of confidence in your own prowess? Maybe they have an 18 year old woman you can spar with? Be about your speed from the way I understand you to say.
I've used two swords (actual metal. Bad swords, so they were heavier than they should have been, but not by that much), and they were a damn sight shorter than 50".
If you want me to believe you can use even a single 50" sword effectively one-handed, give me some proof. That's some serious leverage to be applying with one hand.
~J
If you want me to believe you can use even a single 50" sword effectively one-handed, give me some proof. That's some serious leverage to be applying with one hand.
~J
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand) |
| You get to add half your strength to the damage code when using two cyberweapons. That is an awesome bonus if you have a high strength. |
Or, add 50% more dice, or both. Depending. So, I'll ask again, why cyber-weapons and not hardliner gloves, or fists?
Because a lot of armed fighting styles teach one-weapon use, even with small weapons, while I'm unaware of a fighting style that uses just one arm.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand) |
| A kill, by the way, is a solid blow that would have penetrated chainmail over boiled leather. Any light hit is not counted. |
Such a hit on any part of the body? Are the force requirements for thrusts, especially with sharply pointed weapons (stilettos, most long late middle age swords), less severe? What are the policies concerning pommel and cross guard punches? Are you allowed to wrestle or otherwise engage with your arms and legs? What about gripping the "blade" of an enemy's sword?
Those kinds of things, I'd imagine, could easily change the outcome of a real fight with real weapons against someone whose previous experience doesn't extend beyond SCA.
The RPG, history enactment and similar scenes in Finland are very small and usually intertwined. Were I really interested in that sort of thing, I'd know how to get into contact with the right people. Plus there's Google...
I don't see why the general weapon type "Sword" couldn't be allowed as an off-hand weapon, anyway. Most people could probably wield a 35", 1-3/4 lbs sword off-hand without much trouble.
I'm unaware of a weapon fighting style that doesn't also have you using your off hand, and other limbs to strike with when necessary. Unless the weapon is two handed only I dont see that anything is different.
I just think the mechanic for using a second weapon in SR pretty well sucks anyway. That's why I don't use it. I let it up the power some but NOT add 50% more dice.
I just think the mechanic for using a second weapon in SR pretty well sucks anyway. That's why I don't use it. I let it up the power some but NOT add 50% more dice.
I've found Aiki-Jiujitsu to complement my one-weapon fighting immensely =)
If you wanted to make a 9-foot troll claymore, I would keep the damage code the same for game balance issues. The troll is already going to need (relative to a human) hight strength to use it, which will up the power itself.
As far as the two sword thing, toss the rules as long as your players and you think it's reasonable =)
If you wanted to make a 9-foot troll claymore, I would keep the damage code the same for game balance issues. The troll is already going to need (relative to a human) hight strength to use it, which will up the power itself.
As far as the two sword thing, toss the rules as long as your players and you think it's reasonable =)
You know, having weilded a real broadsword before (for stage combat purposes... it was dulled but otherwise completely acurate) I'm not sure those things could be weilded offhand by anything but a giant. I mean, they tire you out weilding them in just your mainhand... we mostly used them two handed for that very reason. Broadswords are heavier than Katanas... I really don't buy that anyone small could duel weild those things if they were of correct weight.
JaronK
JaronK
i'd disagree. i don't doubt that you know your way around a weapon, but it doesn't sound like you've spent hours and hours every day doing nothing but swinging your weapon at a wooden post, the better to build up the muscles you use for swinging a sword. try that, four hours a day for a month, and you might find that swinging that broadsword becomes a bit easier.
Yes, the hits have to be hard on any part of the body to be a kill. Neck, groin, head, are all legal targets and require a blow hard enough to pierce the armor as I said. Basicly anywhere in the torso and head is a kill. If you are hit in the arm or leg you lose the use of that limb. They do allow you to fight from a kneeling position when you lose a leg, but if you lose a sword arm and are not ambidexterous that is about the end of it for you. This is where you get a chance to win some respect though. It is not required or expected, but many fighters will throw a little mock blow on a matching limb of their own and return the fight to equal parity. Some tournaments award points for chivalry. and sometimes the best prize of a tournament is not the award given for winning it. I have collected a few nice momentos for my honorable actions. It is nothing that is kept track of or anything, but people remember you and I like to think I can beat a man fairly with any handicap imposed. Thrusts need to be landed with the same force, except directly in the face. The minimum spacing for an armored grill or eye slot is 1", since the minimum diameter of a sword can be 1 1/4" it is quite possible a freak accident could occur where your steel cage bent and a powerful thrust might be able to penetrate to the eye area. A face thrust is the only strike that is allowed to be of a lesser force, but only for the sword point a slash across the face still has to have the same power to cut thru chain to be a kill. The SCA is divided into different kingdoms and some outlaw face thrusts all together, which is a somewhat unrealistic approach, but a judgment based on real world safety. After all is said and done we do want to walk away and shake the hands of our noble opponents.
As far as pommel and cross guard punches, you are allowed to design your weapon with this capability. Your shield can be used offensively as well, but any thrusting area has to have compression, in other words a small amount of foam needs to be placed on thrusting tips only and on polearms longer than 7 1/2', this includes the surface edge of any shield to be used offensivly.
Unfortunately there is no gripping the opponent's blade. If you do your arm is considered useless as your hand was just chopped off. No grappling either. You can come up behind an opponent in melee and pin his arms, but it would be considered unchivalrous to throw him to the ground.
I don't think the Fins are big into this sort of thing, which is a shame considering your viking history. I think you will just have to settle for being the best troops fielded in WWII.
As far as pommel and cross guard punches, you are allowed to design your weapon with this capability. Your shield can be used offensively as well, but any thrusting area has to have compression, in other words a small amount of foam needs to be placed on thrusting tips only and on polearms longer than 7 1/2', this includes the surface edge of any shield to be used offensivly.
Unfortunately there is no gripping the opponent's blade. If you do your arm is considered useless as your hand was just chopped off. No grappling either. You can come up behind an opponent in melee and pin his arms, but it would be considered unchivalrous to throw him to the ground.
I don't think the Fins are big into this sort of thing, which is a shame considering your viking history. I think you will just have to settle for being the best troops fielded in WWII.
With your left hand, while weilding another with your right? I haven't been training with it as you say, but I'm no weakling either... it's not an easy task!
JaronK
JaronK
well, sure. if it was easy, everyone'd do it!
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand) |
| Unfortunately there is no gripping the opponent's blade. If you do your arm is considered useless as your hand was just chopped off. |
You guys have gloves/gauntlets that protect the palm, right? Really silly rule.
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand) |
| it would be considered unchivalrous to throw him to the ground. |
I can sort of understand, because it might make the sport slightly less fun. However, this is exactly the sort of thing that you better be prepared for when someone really wants to kill you dead instead of just sparring. It sounds like SCA might be artifically biased against close-in fighting because of such minor details. Certainly something to keep in mind when considering the relative effectivenes of different fighting sports and martial arts in a real battlefield.
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand) |
| I don't think the Fins are big into this sort of thing, which is a shame considering your viking history. |
I think the viking enactment scene is a lot bigger than the general medieval enactment scene. There are several active organisations with lots of members doing viking LARPs and similar things. However, since Finland didn't have a whole lot of knights, barons and similar crap in the middle ages, there isn't much enthusiasm towards SCA.
...and I just realized I know 1/3rd the people in the local SCA canton.
| QUOTE (FrostyNSO) |
| If you wanted to make a 9-foot troll claymore, I would keep the damage code the same for game balance issues. The troll is already going to need (relative to a human) hight strength to use it, which will up the power itself. |
I think this is a very healthy approach. If you start creating new weapon types like Really Large Sword and Big Fucking Sword, etc, you've also got to create restrictions to who can use them, which introduces a lot of new, strict and arbitrary rules to the system. A STR 10 troll with a claymore already does, what, 12S? Just describe his claymore as being 8" long and weighing 14lbs. And if your GM gives you crap about it being more difficult to conceal, slap him around a bit.
Um, wtf? Butcher knives can not stab, I would like to see one that could, but alas they cant. Chop yes. Stab no. Steak knife can stab, very true. Also the death blow on yer chicken had nothing to do with the weight of the weapon. It was what the weapon was made for, to "chop" the head off of yer chicken. The steak knife would have to be used entirely different to get the kill, thus technique is brought in, not weight of a weapon.
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