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#1
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 ![]() |
I'm trying to resolve a question which came up recently with regards to small throwing weaopns recently. On p. 107 of SR3, it indicates that:
On the same page, under Throw Weapon, it notes:
Note that it says "a", not "any". So my question is this: can a PC throw more than one readied weapon with a simple action? Film and comics and literature would suggest yes -- there's all manner of fiction with ninjas hurling handfuls of shuriken at opponents -- but the rules as written don't provide a solid answer. Moreover -- could a PC with ambidexterity throw two readied "batches" of small throwing weapons? |
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#2
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 ![]() |
Hmm... never dealt with someone trying that. I'd at least see what happens when you let them BF with throwing knives. It might actually let them do damage. Also, there's the style aspect of using shuriken for suppressive fire.
I say allow it for a trial period with the condition that if it ever becomes game breaking, you will switch to the 1 projectile per action reading. My only concern is if the PCs get aerodynamic microgrenades. |
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#3
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Resident Legionnaire ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 ![]() |
If you wanted to you could have them pick up the ninjitsu skill and buy a manuever called multi-throw (or something similar, i made it up just now) that lets them throw shuriken in "burst fire" just apply a +3 to the target.
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#4
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 10-June 03 Member No.: 4,709 ![]() |
Samurai and Ninja were known to be able to throw 9 shuriken (Throwing darts) in rapid succession, having them all in the air before the first one hits the target. :D
The same goes for shaken (the round ones). |
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#5
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 90 ![]() |
I've been wondering about this same question recently with a new char concept.
How would this apply to a phys-ad with quick-draw power and missile mastery? |
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#6
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 ![]() |
Realism flatly ignored, the rules are clear: throwing is a simple action, but one half Quickness can be readied. Thus, if I have Quickness 8, I can hold 4 shuriken ready and throw them all in two Initiative Phases. Of course, no matter how quick you are, you will never thow them faster, and even with Quickness 1, you will be just as fast as a Quickness 10 Legendary Ninja— and if this sounds stupid to you, that's be cause it is. But that's nothing new. Anyway, once you've exhausted your supply of ready shuriken, you wuold have to expend another Simple Action to ready that same number again.
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#7
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 15-April 03 From: My own personal purgatory Member No.: 4,453 ![]() |
Ugly. With dikoted throwing knives or shuriken (base (STR+1)M), you've got your adept dealing (STR+3)M with each weapon. Allow him to "burst fire" with them, and that's, what, (STR+6)S per "burst"? :eek: On the other hand, you can get nearly as ugly with just the canon rules. Give 'em some dikoted long Cougar Fineblades - base (STR + 2)S, and just as much range as the standard throwing knives, according to CC p.14. (The GM has the discretion to add a TN penalty if he decides they're "not balanced for throwing", but the range is a given.) Add Missile Mastery for (STR+4)S. Add Quickdraw and he can easily draw and throw 2 per Combat Turn (1 per Simple Action). Either of these possibilities becomes even nastier if we allow ambidexterity, of course. And in either case, if you really want to get nasty, you can try and talk your GM into allowing you to coat the blades with gamma-scopolamine or the like... |
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#8
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Traumatizing players since 1992 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 ![]() |
That's very deceptive, the qui 10 character will have a much higher chance of two actions,
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#9
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
Not quite. Take a non-reaction-or-initiative-augmented specimen of each. We'll try four intelligence levels: 1, 3, 6, and 10. At Int 1, we've got Reaction 1 and Reaction 5, for the grandmaster throwing twice as many darts one sixth of the time. Not a great improvement, but it's a difference. Now, at 3, you've got Reaction 2 and Reaction 6: one third of the time the grandmaster's throwing four shuriken, while the newb will never get more than two off. At 6 we've got Reaction 3 and Reaction 8: Again, newb only ever gets one shot while the grandmaster gets two two-thirds of the time. At Intelligence 10, finally the newb gets a 1/6 chance of those other two shots while grandmaster never throws less than four. Maybe the difference should be bigger, but there's sure as hell a difference. ~J Edit: too slow. Guess I know which ninja I am :) |
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#10
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 22-June 02 From: Parts Without Member No.: 2,897 ![]() |
There are the tales of the three knives in one round adept. All it takes is most of your power points, an understanding GM, and a lovely volunteer from the audience.
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#11
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 ![]() |
Oh, pfft. I guess it's slightly unfair to say there's no difference, but it's not really ever going to be that significant. Very slightly hyperbolic semantics aside, point still stands that all the old ninja stories about throwing 9 shuriken before the first hits and all other related stories, true or false, have no bearing on how this functions per canon.
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#12
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Traumatizing players since 1992 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 ![]() |
Pretty much 99% of any old stories involving ninjas are bullshit. Ninjas themselves are 99% a creation of modern day. here, read this, then stop th Ninja Worship. |
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#13
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 ![]() |
So, is that a yes or a no? :D
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#14
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 ![]() |
I'd suggest finding a more credible source than this single article. There are a number of respectable sources written by far more credible people with far less apparent personal investment in making fun of ninja, marines, and whoever else. That's not to say that the information presented here is incorrect, but a sin of omission by any other name...
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#15
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 ![]() |
No. |
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#16
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 ![]() |
The rules, to my knowledge, never really make a clear arbitration on akimbo throwing weapons, and while it's mostly a silyl concept, there are occasions where it makes sense. Ultimately, leave it up to the GM; personally, I'd say no in most cases.
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#17
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kill Em All Member No.: 2,018 ![]() |
Y'know, in LARP Werewolf we had a technique called Red Talon bowling...
Maybe I should introduce Dwarf Chucking to the SR Masses. No Ready Weapon action needed :-P And those little buggers can carry an AR too :) |
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#18
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 ![]() |
Ok so i may be missing something, but since you need the weapon to be ready before you can throw it, surely the master have quickness 10 spends less actions reading weapons thus does throw them faster.
Besides our numpty with quickness one, can't throw any knifes cos he can't ready any.......... |
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#19
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 ![]() |
Either that or it takes him a Complex Action rather than a Simple one as he fumbles it out of its holster.
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#20
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 ![]() |
Whereas the faster character is throwing twice as many. Complex Action = Two Simple Actions. All the Quickness 10 character needs to do is spend his Ready Weapon action pushing aside his longcoat to expose the bandoleer full of five grenades, line up five daggers in front of him, or any other number of similar things. From that point on he's throwing one item every Simple Action.
The character with Quickness 1 will have to spend a Simple Action to ready his one weapon (he's too clumsy or slow to take advantage of having them all lined up or in easy reach) and then spend another Simple Action to throw it. He's always throwing one item per initiative pass. That said, let's now assume they both have Intelligence 6 and Wired Reflexes 2. Quickness 10 guy (Reaction 12, Initiative 3D6, average 22.5) rolled an average score on his Initiative Test, so he was able to throw all five of those weapons in the span of 3 seconds. Quickness 1 guy (Reaction 7, Initiative 3D6, average 17.5) faired worse as he only managed to get two weapons off in the same span of time. Quickness 10 guy was throwing at more than twice the rate of fire of Quickness 1 guy. I dunno about you, but I'm pretty sure that means he was throwing significantly faster than the slower guy. |
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#21
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 ![]() |
Of course, adding augmentation into the mix is sufficiently muddling. Purely off of the attribute (which is bizarre, considering it should be done off of skill), the rate of throwing is practically identical, even if there is some slight difference.
And if your GM rules that a Quickness 1 character can't ready a throwing weapon ever because 1 / 0 rounded down = 0, kick him in the head until he changes his mind. |
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#22
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 ![]() |
Spoken like someone who doesn't actually play the game.
Unaugmented, Quickness 10 guy has an average initiative of 11.5. Unaugmented Quickness 1 guy has an average initiative of 6.5. In the span of three seconds, Quickness 10 guy is hurling three weapons (Ready 5 as one Simple Action and throw three in his remaining three Simple Actions) while Quickness 1 guy is hurling one (Simple Action to ready a single weapon, another Simple to throw it). Quickness 10 guy is now throwing three times as many weapons. And now Quickness 10 guy is going to throw two at the beginning of the next Combat Turn while Quickness 1 guy is still only going to be able to hurl one. |
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#23
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 ![]() |
Practical rate of fire varies. I never disputed this. Regardless of attribute or skill, however, the number of projectiles loosed per simple action never varies. The old stories of 9 shuriken in the air may or may not (probably not; ninja were good, but they weren't silly) be true, but even verifiable feats are not going to modeled with SR's system, just as SR does a flatly awful job of simulating speed through skill with any normal human being (see firearms). Thus, my original point about ignoring such things when looking at these rules still stands. Anything else is propping straw filled targets.
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#24
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 ![]() |
Actually, I'd say it's spoken more like somone so entrenched in his disdain for SR game mechanics (especially those involving combat) as to simply assume that any given situation is poorly modeled by the game without putting any real thought into determining the whether or not that assumption is reasonable. |
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#25
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 ![]() |
You say tomato.
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