New XM8 Assault Rifle Options

[GrinderTheTroll]

Someone asked the question in this thread http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=5047 about about how much continuous fire untill you damage a weapon barrell.

I thought this recent clip about the new XM8 Assault Rifle to replaces the M-16 was interesting:

Observations include:

• It's more versatile than the old M-16 rifle it will replace and should fire thousands of rounds before jamming, rather than the few hundred shots before the M-16 typically jams.

• It's much easier to clean and maintain.

• Training time is reduced since it's a single weapon that can be modified to fire short distances, long distances, launch grenades, etc.

• It should last longer, with barrels able to fire 15,000 rounds before being replaced rather than the 6,000 to 9,000 rounds it takes to wear out an M-16 barrel. Developers are trying to push the XM8 barrels to 20,000 rounds before replacement.

The XM8 will cost more to make initially, but should settle into a full-rate production cost of $600 to $700 a copy. That compares to $500 for the M-16 and $950 for the M4 carbine.

Source: http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/...3/mn/mn01a.html

[Necro Tech]

Please tell me thats not the actual picture of the weapon. Please. It looks like its made by Fisher Price. Baby's first assault rifle.

[PBTHHHHT]

Oh geez, you're right. :eek:

Maybe it's to make it look less intimidating to the local population in urban environments...

[Cray74]

[BitBasher]

Their design department has been watching too much deep space 9.

[FlakJacket]

[Eyeless Blond]

Actually that's a direct quote from the article, so I guess *they're* the corporate shills :D

Still, that can't possibly be the actual gun. Who would go into combat with a multicolored assault rifle that looks like it was made of plastic? It's got to be some kind of prototype.

[Lindt]

And here I thought the IOCW looked silly, this thing looks like its cheep plastic! Dammit, an assault rifle is supposed to be SCARY, it shoots things. Nice to know what my tax dollers are going to...

[Nath]

I think the final version will be in the black & gray livery - http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm

[Luke Hardison]

[Nath]

[Herald of Verjig...]

A target that is too busy laughing to shoot back is a target that is easily killed.

Not the kind of victory you want made into a movie, but still victory.

[Arethusa]

If you watched the prototype firing videos released a while ago, the gun was simply plain black. The strange colors are either variations on environmental patterns (eg the brown and tan furniture possibly for desert deployment) or prototype coloring. No silly XM8 logo on the real thing, either. Past that, it's not exactly the best looking rifle I've ever seen and I do see the DS9 resemblance, but it's not quite that bad. Certainly not the hilarious looking ockup that once was the OICW.

[Backgammon]

Maybe the design is part of the "Look, killing people is just like a video game!" mentality they're going for nowadays with grunts.

[TheScamp]

[KillaJ]

The sad part is that HK had originally planned a more angular, traditional look for the weapon, but the army actually requested this monstrosity. The old design was "too European", whatever the hell that means.

[Siege]

It may be an ugly rifle, but if it can deliver everything it's promising, I won't complain overmuch.

-Siege

[Nath]

[RangerJoe]

[Luke Hardison]

[GrinderTheTroll]

[FXcalibur]

So what happens to the OICW? Totally scrapped or reserved for special forces or whatever?

[hobgoblin]

[Cray74]

[hobgoblin]

or just go underbarrel & singel shot just like what you have on the current m4/m16. from what i understand the forgrip is removeable to reveal attatchment points for stuff like that...

[Cray74]

[hobgoblin]

i know, and its had the magazine for the grenades in the stock fo the rifle itself.

i read your line about issueing the launcher to a single grunt or squad as issueing as a seperate weapon, i guess i read it wrongly...

[FlakJacket]

On the design front, isn't this basically what people said when the first M-16's came out- that it looked too much like it should have Mattel stamped on it?

[Cray74]

[BGMFH]

SOme of the early M-16s did have Mattel stamped on them...

not kidding, look it up.

[Arethusa]

Just to clarify, the OICW, eventually designated XM29, never made it out of the experimental stage. It was a bulky, useless cumbersome grenade launcher strapped on top of a short carbine. But here's the problem: the advantage of a short carbine is maneuverability— for which it must sacrifice range, stopping power, penetration, fragmentation, accuracy, etc. When you tie 10 fucking pounds of grenade launcher on top, you've pretty much wasted your time. This, of course, occurred to no one on the project, which happily spent loads of money trying to make the thing work.

Needless to say, it didn't, but the 20mm platform and airburst capable grenade launcher was, at least in the eyes of the military, viable. The weapon was split in two, and the short carbine, which was based on the G36, was used as the basis of the XM8 series. The grenade launcher is the XM25, and is essentially the grenade launcher of the OICW/XM29 ripped off and turned into a standalone weapon, carried in somewhat similar fashion to the M79 of old(e).

Do not, however, think that this means 40mm is out. There are still 40mm attachments for the XM8 series (not using the current RIS standard; there is a specific quick attach system for the XM8 which is supposedly superior and can be adapted to current rails if need be), and they will likely be carried in squads in addition to the presence of a dedicated grenadier.

And that's about enough of that.

[mfb]

not to mention the Mk-19 automatic grenade launcher--more fun than a burning nunnery!

[Arethusa]

Well, the Mk19 is a different brand of 40mm altogether from what people generally know from the M79 and M203 type stuff.

But hey, fun is fun— and everbody knows fun rules.

[mfb]

bah, don't you read your SR? they're both grenade launchers, ergo they both use the same ammo !!

[hobgoblin]

now who the hell needs a grenade launcher that can do fully automatic fire? if you need to reduce a area to is component molecules then you call those nice people in the rocket silos, thats what they are there for :silly:

but i guess the military never knew what the word overkill meant ;)

[Arethusa]

[Crusher Bob]

The Mk19 has a bit more oomph that a M2 but you can still mount it on light vehicles. The next step up is really light cannon, but you need a much heavier platform for that. You can stick a Mk19 on top of a Humvee and get fire support out to about 1 mile

[mfb]

overkill is the word of the day when the bad guys come at you in waves. it's also handy to be able to arc your fire over an obstruction.

[mmu1]

I think it'd look allright in black if they just did something about that stupid stock that really does look like something belonging on a plastic Star Trek prop...

Of course, why they couldn't just use the damn G36 and rename it is beyond me. Abyone with a clue knows it's a slightly re-designed G36 anyway, and everyone else will never know or care.

[Arethusa]

The XM8 is not a G36. It is a development of the adapted short carbine portion of the OICW/XM29, which was itself an adaptation of the G36. They are related, but they are not the same gun.

[Bossemanden]

"• It's more versatile than the old M-16 rifle it will replace and should fire thousands of rounds before jamming, rather than the few hundred shots before the M-16 typically jams."

This could mean two different things:

1) The XM8 should be able to fire several thousand rounds continuously before jamming.

2) Each shot fired has a 1/"several thousands" chance of causing a jam.

[Siege]

A fairly thorough page on the XM-8

The Russian Gun Page with some interesting photos

-Siege

[mfb]

or, it could mean the XM-8 can fire can fire several thousand rounds sporadically--eg, normal use--before jamming.

[Bossemanden]

[Clyde]

The main change with the XM-8's operating system is a gas piston to operate the bolt, rather than blowing propellant gas straight through the tube and running the bolt with that like on the M-16. That keeps it from spewing carbon deposits all over the workings of the gun the way the M-16 does, which accounts for your improvement in reliability. Of course, that means that Heckler & Koch have just invented the AR-18 . . .

[MYST1C]

[mfb]

...right. it couldn't be an attempt to create a more advanced fighting force. the XM-8 might not be a stupendously badass leap in technology, but how about the XM-312--a fifty-cal machine gun that weighs, as i recall, only a hundred pounds with tripod. the US Army is attempting to undergo a massive shift in the next 10-20 years, changing out pretty much everything they use. so, no. they're not interested in what everyone else is using now--they want what everyone else will want to be using in twenty years.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Ed_209a]

One downside to the Mk-19 is the long standoff range. The fuze won't function til it goes 20-30m, and it's a not a great idea to shoot anything inside 75m or so.

I have also heard reports that they can be unreliable once mother nature gets inside it.

Mechanically though, it's pretty cool. Ya gotta respect a weapon with a bolt that weighs more than most assault rifles. :D

[hobgoblin]

was not HK mixed into with the OICW project? whats stopping them from useing what they have learned in the G36 and then when the us military comes talking they take some of the internal design of the G36 and stuff it into the XM8?

[Arethusa]

Uh, have you read the rest of this thread?

[BitBasher]

[otomik]

actually the XM8 is a pretty conservative design because it's not a bullpup. This could be a serious shortcoming given the standard configuration with a 12.5'' barrel, a decrease in stopping power which makes it worse than the M4's 14'' barrel.

What I'm really hopping is that they chamber it in the 6.8mm cartridge (or just about anything heavier than 62 grain 5.56mm) and plastic cased ammunition.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&t...highlight=natec
http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-8mm_SPC.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/Barrett-M468.htm
(the last link has a photo of a guy that someone should use for their dwarven merc)

[hobgoblin]

hmm, i belive i had read the thread and some of the stuff linked to allso. still i may be suffering information overload...

"The G36, in severely modified form, also is used as a "kinetic energy" part of the US XM-29 OICW weapon." <- from world.guns.ru. it seems i got the timeline wrong, rather then oicw->g36->xm8 its g36->oicw->xm8, sorry for that...

but still, i made the original comment based on the fact that the xm8 looks like a redesign of the g36 and people where only pointing back to the oicw project and ignoreing the existance of the g36 or implying that they (g36 & xm8) where in no way related except for some similarity in looks...

[Arethusa]

hobgoblin, read my post on the second page. I basically outlined the entire history of the XM8 project.

As for the 12.5" barrel, I'm really not sure if the carbine is going to be all that's given out. From what I've read, it seems like sqauds will be issued a mix of full size rifles and carbines to handle current rifleman duties. But, hell, all information on this is fairly unreliable right now. I do know that one of the major parts of the XM8 design is that it can be easily adapted to 6.8 SPC. Guess we'll see how that works out.

[edit]

I will say, though, that I was also disappointed when I first heard about the XM8 and its lack of bullpup goodness.

This post has been edited by Arethusa: Aug 26 2004, 07:52 PM

[Siege]

Has there been a report issued on how quickly an XM-8 can be converted from short to long and all things inbetween?

One of the major selling points was the expandable flexability of the weapon as noted
here. If you look closely, the weapon is equipped with a bipod.

The next question becomes - will soldiers be issued conversion kits in the field or are they stuck using the weapon in issued format?

-Siege

[Arethusa]

There've been theoretical figures, but I've seen nothing I'd believe in.

Also, bear in mind that it's HK selling its own product, but be that as it may, this is still quite informative.

[KillaJ]

My guess would be the lowest level you would be likely to encounter anyone with the tools to change it out would be the company armorer, though I wouldnt be surprised to see it restricted to battalion. I definitely dont think that individual soldiers would have the kit for it, if only for the purpose of limiting the amount of weight they have to carry, which seems to be one of the primary reasons for issuing this weapon in the first place.

[Siege]

According to Arethusa's link, the weapon is designed to be adaptable at the user level - although it doesn't go into specifics regarding how complex the process becomes.

-Siege

[KillaJ]

[Siege]

As mentioned, it is the company hyping it's product - we haven't seen independent evaluations yet.

As to the trooper's need to swap out - I suppose that depends on the situation and the mission. Necessary parts might be stored at Base Exxon for swapping between missions or the squad might carry a singular extra barrel in case the situation calls for the LMG or the equipment needed for the "sniper-lite" role.

I wish I had a more concrete answer beyond this speculation - the M-16 was introduced with FA capabilities because of the "human wave" tactic of the Chinese. In Viet Nam they locked the M-16s down to single and burst fire because troops had a bad tendency to run out of ammo in the field by cranking on FA indiscriminately.

So I suspect the issuing of modifications and tools will depend on how the military responds to the functionality of the weapon and how the troops take to it in the field.

-Siege

[KillaJ]

[Kurukami]

[KarmaInferno]

[Austere Emancipa...]

AR base damage is 8M, and you can just take a look at these two if you feel the world is making too much sense.

[Edit]And maybe even check these out, if you have no respect for your sanity.[/Edit]

[Edit #2]The point being that there's a whole lot more to terminal effectivity than caliber and kinetic energy. SR cannot really handle that sort of stuff, because of the level of abstractness and the difficulty of fine tuning caused by the use of D6s. On the other hand, one could argue that no RPG should delve into that stuff -- very few people know it happens, a small fraction of that knows why and how it happens, and I'm not sure if anyone knows exactly how such things affect the terminal effectivity of small arms in actual combat.[/Edit #2]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Aug 26 2004, 10:38 PM

[TheScamp]

[hobgoblin]

[FrostyNSO]

I am sorely disappointed that the US gov didn't go bullpup, I think they're more comfortable, more compact, and easier to switch for lefties. Probably worried some of the dumber grunts would end up pointing the wrong end at themselves =)

As far as caliber, seeing as we have billions of rounds of 5.56 stockpiled already, it seems a logical choice. Velocity has more impact on wound profiles and penetration than mass anyways.

[hobgoblin]

if you can turn a bullpup the wrong way you can do it to a normal rifle to. the big flat surfaces goes towards your shoulder, dont care about where the magazine is located...

about the velocity vs mass stuff, equal velocity but more mass will lead to more energy being buildt up and therefor have a bigger punch, atleast in theory. then there is the question if the bullet goes straight thru or begins to tumble inside the target. still, im again going by seat of pants here ;)

[Bossemanden]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[otomik]

The wounding effect of 5.56mm is largely dependent on it's fragmenting and tumbling effect. the fragmenting effect doesn't happen below a certain velocity. with the 14'' barrel of the M4 carbine it's estimated that this tumbling effect will be unlikely past 125 meters, with the projected 12.5 barrel length of the standard XM8 that range falls to a paltry 25 meters.

while the 5.56mm is fast, it loses it's speed quickly (poor ballistic coefficient). There are some alternatives out there now that aren't as fast as the 5.56mm out of the barrel but keep their speed longer (and when you have a cartridge that keeps it's speed it has better long range trajectories, better long range accuracy). People have tried to make designated marksman and sniper rifles from 5.56mm and they all suck because of it's inheriant long range weakness and rapidly falling trajectory (short range police style sniping aside).

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/bullet.html

They could have created something with an even better ballistic coefficient than 6.8mm SPC (something like 6mm Optimum) but their primary goal was increased lethality. I just wish they created something with a smaller caliber to maintain the tumbling and fragmenting effect if possible, and something like a .243 Winchester in a smaller case would mean cheap varmint ammo and cheap deer ammo for all the civies. maybe 6.8mm is a tacit admission that the tumbling fragmenting thing never worked as well as it did on paper.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/...remington_0303/

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Smiley]

Are the specs anywhere? Like the weight, etc.?

Also, I doubt they'll keep that exact finish on it when/if it goes into active use. It'll probably be black, like the M-16.

[Nath]

[FrostyNSO]

Location of the shot is the most important factor. Another big factor is the individual being shot. Some guys might get shot and just aren't impressed. The best shot at dropping a guy is if you hit him somewhere in the upper spinal column, or the ocular cranial cavity. Anywhere else and you can't guarantee anything.

[otomik]

[Atrox]

[FrostyNSO]

I loved the FAMAS, but I've never tried the L85 and only used the AUG a few times.

I don't really see the XM-8 replacing the SAW though.

[hobgoblin]

bipod, longer barrel, 100 round cylinder magazine, thats the xm8 in lmg config right? the question is, do you want a bigger caliber with that or do you want the ability to grab some extras form your fallen squadmate over there if needed?

[Arethusa]

[Siege]

[Young Freud]

[Raygun]

[KillaJ]

The assault weapons ban lifts in what, 2 weeks? Do you firearms gurus expect civilian versions of any of these weapons to be hitting the streets soon? I sure like the looks of that G36 carbine...

[Siege]

Ya know - I don't see why not.

As nifty as the gun is, it's not significantly scarier than an AK-47, a MAC-10 (or variant) or even 30-06 hunting rifle with scope.

If I end up going on a shooting rampage (hey...you...Homeland Security guy...relax, it's all hypothetical), I could stock up on weapons at Sprawl-Mart and make one hell of a mess.

The only thing I'd have to get at a gun shop - extra magazines for my handgun. A 12-gauge shotgun may not be as spiffy as a space-age Trooper's toy, but it will still ruin your day in close quarters.

In a hallway, it'll ruin your day and the two guys on either side of you.

-Siege

[BitBasher]

I expect it'll make no difference except to collectors... I do know I'm about to run out and buy some hi-cap mags though.

Incidentally, I may be wrong but I think the import ban on assault rifles is wholly separate from from the "assault weapons ban" and is not about to expire.

[KillaJ]

[Raygun]

HK broke ground on a factory in Columbus, Georgia last year. If the XM8 is accepted (and it's a pretty sure thing, IMO), it has to be manufactured in the US. Thus, they invest in a factory here.

You'll be getting honest-to-God, American-made Heckler & Koch firearms here pretty soon. It would be nothing short of stupid for them not to market a semi-auto XM8. It would be even dumber not to market HK416 (HKM4) uppers. HK91 (semi-auto G3) HK93 (semi-auto HK33), HK94 (semi-auto MP5 carbines), all that cool shit that used to be imported from Germany in the 80's... It's gonna kick ass.

As long as Kerry doesn't get elected, anyway.

[Siege]

Snicker - I'll drive down and take photos of the HK plant.

And once the FBI turn me loose, I can send them to you. :grinbig:

-Siege

[FrostyNSO]

I'm looking at the FN FiveSeven. Just to try it out...may have some trouble finding the ammunition however. That's assuming the ban lifts, who knows what'll happen in dumb*ss California anyways.

On a side note, it'd be nice to see a FN2000 floating around in Nevada somewhere.

[FrostyNSO]

Anybody hear Kerry talking about "Haves, and Have-nots"?

I dunno about everyone else, but I don't want a guy who quotes Marx leading the free world.

[JaronK]

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a president that's read major political theorists than one who hasn't. But that's not very relevant, now is it?

JaronK

[Siege]

We're wandering a little far from the topic thread guys.

-Siege

[otomik]

the bush family is so blue blood, it's all political theatre. kerry brags about europe liking him better and speaking french (that's just retarded and bush is probably laughing at his incompetence in political theatre).

I bet Kerry reads machiavelli way more than marx.

now about the XM8, i think they are concerned about lack of stopping power. it's possible they'll switch to 6.8mm but it's also possible they'll just switich to a heavier 5.56mm bullet instead of 62 grain SS109 (special forces has been using a 77 grain and i've even heard of experimenting with 84 grain).

I would also be possible to keep more velocity by switching to polygonal rifling (HK has experimented with this in the past) and rifling that turns at a progressive rate along the length of the barrel.

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=167591

[MYST1C]

[otomik]

http://www.camo-store.com/army_combat_uniform_acu.htm
wonderful, this just after we gave all the army grunts black berets to silence their beret envy.

brown rifle, kind of ugly, can of krylon doesn't cost that much and is more versatile and can make cammo patterns.

[Chance359]

At least theirs is better than the crap they are trying to issue to me. New Air Force Uniform survey

Please as a favor to a fellow dumpshock member take the time to let them know how wrong this is.

Back to the topic, I was looking forward to getting an M4 as the Air Force phases out the M16A2s. The Army getting a new toy gives me something else to look forward to.

[FrostyNSO]

OMG I'm glad I got out before that thing came in. I feel for ya man.

Legion combat shirts are way more comfortable, and look pretty cool I might add.

[KillaJ]

Nevermind, I'm a jackass... :(
Got a little further into the survey and realized it was aimed at AF personnel.

This post has been edited by KillaJ: Aug 28 2004, 05:19 PM